Romans 15 - Fostering Doubt

The penultimate chapter of Romans! Jef pushes Jeremy one more time on animal ethics, we also discuss issues of parenting and indoctrination.

Topics
Why isn’t Jeremy vegan?
Are non-believers unified?
Why is God so needy in asking for praise?
Should you just believe even if you feel nothing?

We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at ​​forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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Transcript

00:00.00
Jeremy
Well, if you've made it with us this long. The finish line is in sight we're at romans chapter 15 so close to Paul's concluding arguments but we're not concluding yet today I want to welcome you to the force in the trees I'm Jeremy. Joined as always by my friend. Jeff.

00:18.88
forestandtrees
I am planning to go to Spain romans fit yeah romans 1524 that's that's my new life first I don't have specific plans but it sounds nice.

00:24.16
Jeremy
Mm it's very Paul Pauline of you. Are you are you gonna go to Spain home. Yeah.

00:36.60
forestandtrees
I've I've wanted to do the Camino de Santiago Trail like um, some people walk it I would love to bike it and you know like stay in churches and missions and stuff I think so I think from yeah I think I've seen I've like read blogs online and stuff of people doing it. Um.

00:43.60
Jeremy
Is that an option. Oh I never heard of that.

00:55.29
forestandtrees
You know it's kind of like spiritual pilgrimage. Ah yeah, been wanted to do that for years have haven't done it yet but seems like it'd be pretty awesome. Yeah yeah, I've seen him I've heard him talk about it in sermons and stuff. Yeah.

00:55.57
Jeremy
E.

01:02.21
Jeremy
Yeah Brian Zand is a big Camino guy.

01:11.15
Jeremy
He's a well-known pastor in case, you're wondering that reference. Ah so we're not going to Spain today where we are dwelling in romans fifteen we're going to briefly revisit eating meat because Jeff loves the subject. We're gonna talk about the reasons for unity why god needs us to worship god and the nature of hope and doubt it's gonna be a going like to set the tone for today with romans 15 verse 13 verse we're gonna explore in a little bit. I prayed that god the source of hope will fill you completely with joy and peace because you trust in him then you will overflow with confident hope through the power of the holy spirit I pray that for you. Jeff.

02:05.31
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, thanks I have ah I have some follow up questions but we're going to save that for the end of the episode. Yeah.

02:07.37
Jeremy
I know yeah, we're not there yet this this is not that time before we get to your questions I also just just for fun I want to just share I reference regularly that I get interesting comments. You know from people online who. Don't know me don't know the show don't know don't know the context in which they they stumbled into a clip from the algorithm and you know in different platforms I get different ones Youtube usually I get the best of like people I don't know how Youtube is delivering my clips to random strangers but they.

02:35.15
forestandtrees
Um.

02:45.40
Jeremy
Sometimes seem very caught off guard by by what they're watching and I thought you would just enjoy the wording of this one. Ah, just again sharing one of the clips from last week's podcast less than a minute. It wasn't long and the reply I got from 1 person was.

02:49.12
forestandtrees
Um.

03:03.70
Jeremy
What kind of low budget religious movie. Are you living in religious preaching is outdated. Go back to the sixteenth century where nobody but the priest could read. Yeah, so some strong emotions on that one.

03:09.30
forestandtrees
Um.

03:14.18
forestandtrees
Wow is yeah, there's there's a lot there with the light low budget move I'm not sure like what he's getting out with like low budget movie and how that's connected to the sixteenth century.

03:28.80
Jeremy
Yeah I had the same confusion I was like why why am I in a low budget religious movie I didn't I didn't I don't know I thought maybe you could help me and understand that because you're much more a movie guy. It was the one about when you asked why.

03:39.42
forestandtrees
What was the clip. What were you saying in the clip.

03:48.53
Jeremy
Ah, something like that like why is there you know evil in creations like animals I think was the question we're talking about like why you know why are animals naturally attack other animals like all that whole thing and I was talking about. You know there are forces of evil that shape that so it was I think it was that clip and.

03:51.36
forestandtrees
Oh okay, yeah.

03:59.29
forestandtrees
Um.

04:02.92
forestandtrees
Okay.

04:06.19
Jeremy
Because the first I thought was like was this a dig on the movie Pig from what park Cliff so movie. We've talked a lot about that and I was like nobody's gonna dog on Pig like that because that is a low budget I was even say a low budget religious movie because it's It's a spiritual experience but that's just me.

04:10.84
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, ah.

04:15.30
forestandtrees
M.

04:22.58
forestandtrees
Yeah, that I should look I haven't and and never even looked into like who who the writer director is of that movie Butd Yeah I Wonder what their what? their religious leanings are' be interesting. Um, yeah.

04:31.20
Jeremy
Well I'm living that evidently Jeff I'm living the low budget religious movie. It's my life.

04:40.38
forestandtrees
Regular kirkt cameron over here. Um I wonder if that if that was I mean I guess that makes sense to me of like the sixteenth century part definitely makes sense of like angels and demons. You know it's I'm sure you get this criticism of this feels like an outdated worldview of to say that like angels and demons are are causing all.

04:42.99
Jeremy
Oof I hurt.

04:53.39
Jeremy
Sure.

05:00.14
forestandtrees
All the mayhem in the world. Not I want more? Yeah, by here, you're not alone I I mean this week I was I was revisiting some old videos of Greg Boyd defending that view a former guest of the show and friend of yours Greg Boyd who also.

05:01.10
Jeremy
It's not cool anymore to believe in Angels and demons. Yeah I get it. It's that that is not the that's not the cool belief these days.

05:15.69
Jeremy
Who.

05:19.22
forestandtrees
That's how you can explain natural Evil is the spiritual warfare that's going on ah unbenoced us which is it's a fascinating way to view the world. It's very interesting. Yeah.

05:30.59
Jeremy
Well I would posit. It is an explanation Obviously not the only one but you had a really good question and I felt like it deserved at least an attempt of an answer. Even if you don't like the answer so that was that was my best answer.

05:47.65
forestandtrees
Yeah, no yeah I appreciate that? Ah, all right? You ready to answer some more all right all right? So we we talk about? yeah back? yeah.

05:53.11
Jeremy
Let's do it. Ah, let's go back to the sixteenth century. Jeff.

06:01.15
forestandtrees
So put put it on my vegan hat just just for this 1 question all right? and then I'll take it off and leave it off for the rest of the book of romance. Okay is that fair. yeah yeah I promise I promise not to bring it up for the next 2 chapters after this question.

06:07.96
Jeremy
Is that a promise.

06:18.29
Jeremy
I Feel like you can probably maintain that Okay, okay.

06:22.20
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, we'll see how long I can I can withhold judgment all right? So romans 15 versus 1 and two I'd say our kind of spillover from what Paul was talking about in ah the last chapter in verses 14 here so one to revisit it because I feel like ah we were on a bit of a time crunch last time and. Want to get some more Jeremy's thoughts on this. So it says we who are strong must be considerate of those who are sensitive about things like this. We must not just please ourselves. We should help others do what is right? and build them up in the Lord. So again, it's talking about people who are convicted by different things and Paul talks a lot about people who are convicted about. Dietary things of whether to eat meat or only vegetables like I said spilling over from from chapter 14 and we ah we talked about this with our guest Amanda and I was hoping to get ah more more of your perspective on this Jeremy and I feel like we just didn't have time for it. First of all I should say like I think you have been. Very considerate of of your fellow you know, weak in the faith soy boy here I've never felt judged or mocked by you or anything like if I were to and I don't why I wanted to acknowledge that Paul Paul is like has this kind of passive aggressive tone of like you know those.

07:27.40
Jeremy
I Was to say I've never called you weak just to be fair. Okay.

07:39.33
forestandtrees
Those who are strong in the faith need to you know you got to stay strong for for the ones who are weaker there I think that's ah, it's kind of hilarious to me and and we see it. Um, today is how like ah Vegans vegetarians are considered weak by by some people anyway out sensitive. Yeah I'm.

07:54.38
Jeremy
Paul's word Paul's word is sensitive. Yes, you're sensitive.

07:59.29
forestandtrees
Um, sensitive soul. Absolutely I Anyway, just to say I think you've been totally respectful ah haven't felt judged by you I Yeah if if I were to go to your home for dinner or something I'm sure you'd be accommodating and have ah a vegan option for me. Um, but anyway I just. Yeah, you know you're a thoughtful person. This is something that I'd I Just like to ask people about um and I So I wonder why is it that you have come to this conclusion for yourself that it's okay to eat Meat. What's your personal philosophy on this.

08:30.95
Jeremy
I Think the initial answer is that I was raised this way and it's a cultural norm in the culture that I live in So I think you have to just acknowledge that you know I mean like I I was brought up eating meat as long as I can remember so I think the way you're raised shapes a lot of. Obviously conclusions you get to and I think the goal as an adult is to then as you grow up you know challenge What you were raised with see the things that you still agree with still believe with and you know change your mind on things that you go. Yeah I was raised that way and I don't I don't view it that way Anymore. So I think you have to be fair like I was raised this way So that's. That's why I started eating meat and then I would say beyond that I haven't felt a strong enough reason not to to to not eat meat now I would say the caveat to that it doesn't mean I don't recognize the problems that you often bring up you know, like with the meat industry I can recognize the problems and so I'm not defending the problems.

09:11.60
forestandtrees
Um.

09:28.23
Jeremy
Um, I just think I'm going about it differently than you are so as I was thinking this is a really I think a good question and I think there are more problems in the world right? than any of us can adequately respond to and I think technology social media just the web has made it. Really difficult because you know throughout history people weren't as aware of all of the problems going on you kind of knew the problems in your neck of the woods and you know if you had a direct line of communication to it. That's what you were aware of today. We can be literally aware of every problem going on in the world and. You know if you're if you're interested in it. You can read articles. You can follow people I mean you can be so aware of any problem you want and for a lot of people that is a really crushing weight to try to carry of like what do I do with all this and so I think what all of us end up doing whether we realize it or not.

10:10.95
forestandtrees
And.

10:23.82
Jeremy
Is that we pick a handful of the problems in the world that we're going to spend significant energy on and each of us kind of figure out like this one really matters to me I'm going to I'm going to really do this and to use Paul's language you know you're joking about this but Paul does use a word that I think's helpful that there are ah there's a sensitivity. To different kinds of problems and so I would say you have a sensitivity and I don't mean ah and a pejorative ah to food. You know that's a real sensitive and the the whole topic of meat and animals is something. You're very sensitive to I would say all of us have that.

10:48.82
forestandtrees
Um.

10:57.93
Jeremy
Um, about different things. We all have things that we're sensitive to you problems that we see that someone else may look at and go Why is that such a big deal to you and you know maybe hard to explain why but like I don't know I just feel really passionate about it and so I'll thinking of you know I'll give you an example. Ah so our. Our family we have 5 kids 2 of them we fostered and adopted and I would guess I don't know this. But if I explained all of the issues in the foster care system and all the issues with kids needing homes to you that you would probably agree. That's a problem like Wow that's.

11:28.78
forestandtrees
A.

11:35.31
Jeremy
That is that is substantial. There's a lot of kids and there a lot of need and you know you would go yeah that that really is a problem. So then I could say you know fall in the same line of thought. Okay Jeff how have you personally come to conclusion that it's okay for you not to foster kids who need a home right.

11:50.12
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. Yeah.

11:53.94
Jeremy
And I would say you're acknowledging. There's a problem here so you're not, you're not willing to solve it like how how are you justifying that right? that would be a very insensitive way of doing that but that would be kind of the same idea and so I would say you know you you probably have a similar answer in that question is like yeah I'm not. I'm not saying it's not a problem I'm just saying like I don't uniquely feel called to address that 1 or or to you again, go back to Paul's language I don't feel like sensitive to that problem compared to other problems I see so I think if we look at what is what is Paul's bigger argument here is that we all have different things. We're sensitive about.

12:27.80
forestandtrees
Um.

12:32.28
Jeremy
And I think that's the beauty of Humanity. It's the beauty of Community. It's the beauty of what the church can be is when we get together a room when we go if you really you know, peeled back the layers we all would have different things that we would say no this one really matters and I think the goal for all of us is how do I How do I learn not to judge people. Who don't have the same sensitivities I have and how do I encourage people who have you know different pursuits or trying to address different problems than me and so you know I remember there is a season there where I did get a little judgmental on people who wouldn't be willing to bring Foster kids into their home because to me I'm going.

13:08.29
forestandtrees
Her.

13:11.56
Jeremy
This is like an out of control problem in the State. You know that we were living in in Arizon at time and it's you know, making all the news and all this and I'm like we already have 3 kids and we're you know, opening it up to more because it's such a need and then I would look at up people like why are you not like why are you not willing to address this problem and I had to I had to like take a step back and go okay. Just because I'm sensitive to this problem or I see this problem doesn't mean that everybody is called to it and so I would say I can see problems in the meat industry and all that but I have not felt a sensitivity where God saying hey this is one I Really want you to tackle and you know get all on board with. And I think the reality is you You can't do that with every problem in the world. There's there's there's too many problems. There's too much in the world that would you know weigh you down and so for me, it's just not something that I'm super sensitive to but that doesn't mean I don't recognize there's something there.

14:03.14
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's that's great I I do think about that a lot because I think I think a lot about the idea of like the the ethics of having children like I mentioned a couple episodes ago I've been listening to a lot of podcasts and people who are talking about Antinatalism who who would argue that like.

14:15.47
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

14:19.21
forestandtrees
No one should be having kids Um, but then also like child free by choice and which I mean I would say my wife and I are child free by choice I would say but yeah, the and then like ethical problem of why are people having biological kids when there are kids who are waiting to get adopted. Do you struggle with that with like no I would feel.

14:31.83
Jeremy
A.

14:37.20
forestandtrees
Think if I were you I have a really hard time not being Judgmental. Ah people who are pursuing like ivf and like medically trying to have biological children and you know because you can always say well it's it's free and easy to have a kid the old fashioned way and it's very expensive and complex to adopt. But if you need to. Ah, medically induced then that's also very complex and expensive do struggle with that or are you good at not being judgmental now.

15:00.21
Jeremy
I would definitely say there was a season where I probably did you know where I'd look at people and going you you realized there's like thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of kids that need a home and you know the whole argument against having kids doesn't even apply there because these kids already exist. So it's like.

15:09.39
forestandtrees
E.

15:15.46
forestandtrees
Exactly yeah.

15:18.92
Jeremy
These kids already exist. They're here. They just need a home like they need support. They need you know basic things and most people I knew had the ability to to help you know and most people didn't and so I do think that that was a growing season for me personally, where. I had to work through thoughts I'm like why are more people not doing this you know and I have a few friends and um I have 1 friend in particular. They also adopted 5 kids and fostered lots of kids and ah you know he he said to me 1 time like hey the line that always gets said to us and it's it was totally true. People will say oh that's so amazing that you are fostering kids I could never do that I mean literally is the line you hear over and over and over and I I hear it to this day when someone finds out that we fostered you know the two that we adopted. Oh I could never do that and my friend started saying.

16:03.40
forestandtrees
Um.

16:09.54
forestandtrees
A.

16:14.91
Jeremy
Yes, you can you're choosing not to because he just got so tired of I could never and it would be like someone saying to you? Oh you don't eat me I could never do that like you could you but you know I mean like you could you just are choosing.

16:15.57
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

16:24.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, hard to imagine someone saying that's me. Yeah yeah I feel I feel exactly the same way would people say to me a like oh I couldn't do that that that be too hard in the much. It's not that hard. Yeah.

16:39.89
Jeremy
Which but but there an element of truth like yeah it is hard I mean it's it would take work and you would have to restructure things. Um, but to me I think again the the fostering has really been where I think I've.

16:43.37
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

00:02.14
Jeremy
And so for me the the foster journey was really what I think taught me this lesson and I I would like to think I've I've grown a ton through this and you know I think it also applies to ah like values that you have as ah as a person So like I would say.

00:19.29
Jeremy
I would okay so I'll be real one of them. That's that is hard for me that I have to fight often. The judgmental feelings is when someone quickly dismisses Nonviolence as like naive stupid like oh that's the dumbest thing.

00:30.34
forestandtrees
Um.

00:33.74
Jeremy
That is one of those I'm like okay this just seems so clear to me, you know, like okay you know what I have to just like all right I I'm passionate about this but they clearly are not and you know and there's been a few times my wife has even been like look it took you a while to get to where you are that was a journey for you. You can't.

00:36.67
forestandtrees
E.

00:53.40
forestandtrees
Um.

00:54.16
Jeremy
You're gonna have 1 conversation with someone and they're gonna be where you are and that's like really good advice and so I think I don't I think in all of this is learning to say I I truly I I admire you for your veganism I think it's a noble way that you're living out at value. You have. In response to a problem you see and I think it's great. So I I would never make a joke about it I I do think it's it's valuable and I would also hope that you could look at me and not you know, think that I'm the scum of the earth because I am willing to eat an enmal and I think that's you know that's somewhere in that is how we.

01:14.70
forestandtrees
In.

01:30.20
Jeremy
And again to encourage one another and the things that we're sensitive on and if I could make you a better vegan and you could make me a better you know Foster parent then somehow we've tapped into something I think really cool there.

01:42.00
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, no, that's that's great elev that um, what was I going to say I mean I'll I'll say in terms of like what's easier or harder I think you're taking on much more personal sacrifice by fostering two kids. Just personally I think you know you I know you could say veganism is hard because it affects every single meal 3 times a day every day forever. But I don't know to me that seems way easier than taking care of a kid for 18 years um so I I admire you for that I feel like you've you've taken on a huge.

02:15.92
forestandtrees
Responsibility and it's It's a very noble thing that I really admire about you? Um, yeah, yeah, oh another thing is do you think you should qualify and say not, you're committed to Nonhuman violence. Okay fologies for that and then.

02:17.66
Jeremy
Well thank you.

02:26.43
Jeremy
Okay.

02:32.62
forestandtrees
1 thing I totally agree with you about the whole it's impossible not to be overwhelmed with futility because there are so many different issues like reminded me of when I reminds me of what I was talking about how like I was ride my bike twe and I was not eating meat and I was like trying to research how to reduce my carbon footprint and meanwhile was still like. Buying all these t-shirts and thinking and not like not having a second thought about it. So I think that that's very true. Um, like people talk about there's no ethical consumption or capitalism There's always going to be some kind of exploitation that we're inadvertently, um, contributing to.

03:05.63
Jeremy
A.

03:10.23
forestandtrees
Whether you know environmental human animal and it's yeah, very very depressing to think about and it's hard not to get downtrodden and cynical about it. So I do agree with that aspect too of you have to pick your battles to some extent. Um, okay, 1 more 1 more quote I wanted to read that I was going to read last time and didn't get a chance to, but it's from it's from a novel called tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin said this life is filled with inescapable moral compromises. We should do what we can to avoid the easy ones.

03:45.25
Jeremy
Health.

03:46.17
forestandtrees
Remember that quote were like standing out to me of like yeah, it's It's totally True. We all have blood on our Hands. We're all like ah as I said like inadvertently supporting sweatshops when we buy iphones or or cheap clothing or whatever. So I think it's true that we need to. Find things that are easy for us to avoid ways ways we cannot contribute to making the world a worse place and causing human Animal Environmental Damage. And yeah I think you contributing to the foster care system in your way is. Very Admirable. So I appreciate that.

04:20.76
Jeremy
Well, thanks I Think I Love that quote and I think that's the point is learn to care about things in the world and the ones that you're sensitive to do something about you know and and be willing to say Wow I Really see that problem that seems like a really big problem to me then get engaged like. Shape your life around a response to that you know and and and that's the goal for all of us is you know pick the things that you're really passionate about and you'll you'll make the world a better place all right enough enough Touchy feely Stuff. Let's let's let's get into here I got a question for you.

04:49.51
forestandtrees
All right? take him and hat off. Yeah yeah, okay.

05:00.40
Jeremy
Verse 5 got me thinking and I I'm legitimately curious as to where you're gonna take this answer because I don't I don't know how you're gonna answer this verse 5 says may god who gives this patience and encouragement help you live in complete harmony with each other as is fitting. Followers of Christ Jesus I would say this theme of unity if you read, especially like the new testament is a huge theme and something huge with Jesus um, you know and I would say if christians were more faithful. We would see tons of unity around the person of Jesus. Sadly. This is often not the case and I'll be the first to acknowledge christians are not known for how great we are at unity but I would say based on the person we follow. This should be a goal this should be something front and center because the guy we follow talked a lot about it and and seem to model it.

05:56.58
forestandtrees
The.

05:58.21
Jeremy
But then that got me thinking. Okay so I I would say again not because christians have pulled have pulled this off that it's a christian ideal but it's a christian ideal because Jesus modeled it and called us to it but then I'll again. Okay, apart from Jesus then what is the goal or basis for unity for those who aren't following Jesus. And then I thought is this even a value like is unity a value if you're you're like I don't follow Jesus at all is that a value for you. Yes, or no and then if yes, what's the rallying cry What do you What are we rallying around unity if if we're saying it's not Jesus.

06:32.53
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's a really interesting question like you said there's kind of different ways to take different ways I've thought about it I mean I would say unity is a value for me personally and that like you know I think it would be great if if all of humanity was united towards you know world peace or working together or whatever. I would say like non-christians as a people group are are not united around a a common cause you know like because that's a huge group of people 2 thirds of the population that includes atheists but also includes people of all their faiths and just like. But you'd call nuns just like apathetic non-believers or agnostics or whatever. So I'd say you know those people are not really united you know like it. It kind of reminded me of when when people um, say something to the effect of atheism is just another religion. You know like that's a common objection that. Atheists get really annoyed about and say like it's not a religion. It's just a It's not a belief. It's a lack of belief. You know it's they'll say like it's a religion in the same way that off is a Tv channel. You know it's kind of like a snarky response that atheists will give I think I know what people mean of like there are of course there are like. Militant atheists or anti theists who are very united and a common goal of like trying to debunk the claims of religion or something like that. So I say I don't know like maybe maybe in some ways I've become a little bit a part of that group with with like doing this podcast but I don't know I i.

08:04.99
forestandtrees
Ah, try to separate myself from someone who's.

00:00.54
forestandtrees
So yeah, there there certainly are atheists who like are religious in their antitheism and who like find their identity and a sense of community and are united around this common goal of like debunking religion or like. Proving the bible wrong or something like that which maybe I fit into that a little bit with with like creating this podcast where I like try to poke holes and criticize the bible hopeful I I'm not as a negative and cynical as that hopefully I'm coming at this from more of a good faith I wanting to learn and be curious and and like. Christianity expressed like the best version of itself. Ah, but ah I suppose you'd be a better judge of that than I am of myself. So yeah, that's my that's my answer is that yeah I think a lot of people have kind of a goal of unity I think most people would agree like unity is a good thing. Can't we all just get along. But non-followers of Jesus as a people group are not necessarily united in their purpose.

01:06.22
Jeremy
So what? like what would be a what would be something to unite people apart from Jesus.

01:15.19
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean like love like the generic worldly version of love like we talked about a couple episodes ago. Um, as I was trying to think of like what's ah, a good succinct way of saying that what I came up with was caring for 1 another. Like I think that's something that most people agree on as as a good and positive thing. Are you here? Jeremy you're frozen.

01:47.45
Jeremy
I Don't know if you can hear me but you're frozen and I can't hear you.

01:56.72
forestandtrees
Can you hear me, you're you're totally frozen on my end.

00:01.70
forestandtrees
So there are certainly atheists who would be more like militant atheists or antitheists who definitely form their identity and have a sense of community and unified purpose around trying to debunk. Ah. Religion or christianity or like point out that the bible contradicts itself or is immoral or whatever. So maybe I fall a little bit into that camp in some ways in terms of like starting this podcast where I try to like express all my objections to the bible and christianity. Hopefully I'm a little bit more. Positive and coming at it from a good faith perspective than than what some people would see is like a you know stereotypical militant angry atheist but you can be the judge of that. Ah yeah, so I would say unity is a good thing I think a lot of people agree that unity is something we should strive for as people. But. Yeah I would say that non-christians non-followers of Jesus as a people group do not have a united cause the same way that christians do.

01:03.20
Jeremy
Well I think that that's what I would guess and I think that part of the problem even in christianity is I think one of the reasons we're not as christians more united is because we have different views of Jesus so we tend to unite around our view of Jesus.

01:18.70
forestandtrees
Um.

01:22.85
Jeremy
Right? And so then however, that however big that circle is that's where we usually experience unity and then someone who says why I think Jesus is like this you know you get a very different version of that and you know like there's another lady I've been going back and forth with on Tiktok in response to a different video.

01:40.89
forestandtrees
Further.

01:42.62
Jeremy
On universal reconciliation and I always approach it in good faith too of like all right I can tell she's a christian you know and so I'm like she's she has a different view than me so you know how do I engage in this conversation and she you know did not agree that Jesus is gonna save everyone which again is fine like you. That's.

02:00.73
forestandtrees
Yeah, Mainstream view for sure.

02:02.26
Jeremy
I Understand that you know yeah and so we're going back and forth and she like her hostility like just keeps growing with every like reply. She's giving me and you know I I'm I just I'm like keep having an answer for like no I Yeah but here's what I think and.

02:14.10
forestandtrees
Um.

02:20.31
Jeremy
So then finally she likes this is where conversations with Christian usually go is they'll just start quoting verses at each other that's like I don't know what else to say to you like read this you know so she she quotes this verse at me and I'm like okay so then this was a little snarky.

02:28.10
forestandtrees
Right? right.

02:37.56
Jeremy
Ah I have like a list of verses saved. You know that all are about like universal reconciliation. So I just like copy pasted that which is like 8 different verses. Yeah I mean and then she just goes off on me like in response to that and so it's like okay wait.

02:45.29
forestandtrees
And.

02:54.70
Jeremy
And again, this is the one I should be able to have unity with but we have such a different view of Jesus that she can't even like she can't stomach my view and you know is is like written me off as I just want to feel good and make Jesus into something wishywashy I think that's the challenges. However, wide our criteria for unity is ah is going to water down whatever sense of unity we have and so you know if it's hard for christians I would imagine. It's really hard for anyone else. That's like well what are we because even again as an atheist like shouldn't you want to be united with.

03:23.90
forestandtrees
Yeah.

03:31.61
Jeremy
Believers of all religions because of humanity you know So it's like so then what are we all? What is it? We all agree on and there's just not much. There's like.

03:37.60
forestandtrees
Yeah, there's There's not much well you know like like I talked about a couple episodes ago I feel like we can. Maybe we can all agree on love like we should all love each other or we should all like strive for world peace and like and war not fight anymore though I mean.

03:54.23
Jeremy
But even that right So many people don't believe in that.

03:56.27
forestandtrees
Clearly not not everyone agrees on that. Yeah, and and even if and even if people I think even you know, maybe even people in the military like agree that that's like the ideal is to have no more war. Maybe I don't know it I guess it depends like different people have different perspectives Certainly people are never going agree on the methods.

04:13.67
Jeremy
O.

04:15.72
forestandtrees
Right? Like again to talk about like the the issue of school shootings. You know like I would say like can we just get rid of all guns. Can we do that that would be a great solution and some people say basically the opposite if we need more guns we need to arm the teachers we need to have armed security at every school you know? So yeah, yeah.

04:30.64
Jeremy
Now.

04:35.60
forestandtrees
And then the issue of um, all the different denominations within christianity I don't know I I can see why that's like an easy criticism of christianity. But I don't know I guess there's also a way to see it as maybe that's like because god is so. Mysterious and unknowable and that's why like the bible is so ambiguous and we have 4 different Gospels. You know there's a way I can make sense of like all the different denominations and why like just people interpret the same god and sometimes subtly sometimes radically different expressions and interpretations. Does does ah the whole thing with all the different denominations does that bother you Jeremy like you were talking about disunity or yeah.

05:15.82
Jeremy
It bothers me the way they treat each other that doesn't bother me that they exist so to me going back to what you know my our earlier conversation about the different things that we're sensitive to I have no problem with different versions of christianity that cater to different.

05:29.90
forestandtrees
Um.

05:35.40
Jeremy
Groups of people and you know I think that's beautiful like that there should be lots of expressions of the church. What I don't like and I think gets unhealthy is when we don't have any sense of unity together and you know we start viewing other christians as the enemy and that's where I that's the I just don't understand it. It's like why are we so threatened. And I would say this is like 1 of my biggest critiques against christians why are we so threatened by other christians who disagree with us on on some of the nitty-gritty of this and again I I get into these conversations online every week that I post these videos.

05:59.59
forestandtrees
E.

06:10.21
Jeremy
And I'm just amazed like why are people so angry about this stuff I don't know I just don't I don't understand that and I think that's the problem. So I'm fine that there's denominations I think it can be There's beauty in all of it. You know and again I've enjoyed popping into different versions of the church and experiencing different. Ways that they understand and and experience Jesus but when there's a hostility toward 1 another That's where I think we look like a bunch of holes.

06:37.45
forestandtrees
Yeah, so a quick story about several months ago um on tiktok I made a filter that determines what Christian denomination you are ah just for fun and kind of honestly when I was making it. It was kind of as a snarky like criticism of christianity. Ah, full disclosure but and and I don't just for fun. It was this idea that I had a long time ago. So of course it was just a randomizer just randomly assigns um a denomination to you on your head and it was was that yeah you be yeah, you played along? Yeah totally and um it I mean it was hilarious. Fascinating.

07:03.59
Jeremy
Um I played along I played along.

07:14.99
forestandtrees
To see the results because it it kind of blew up I got almost a million views on the the video that I made for it which is which is like viral for me. Yeah, because I yeah normally yeah I normally get like ah about 1 to 2000 views so yeah that was that was blowing up for me for sure. Um.

07:16.84
Jeremy
Did you really? wow, you're you're big time. A million views is viral sir.

07:33.27
forestandtrees
And anyway, so and so I was like watching all the people's videos and their reactions to it as they were using the filter because every time you use the filter you make new video any a lot of it was a lot of ah atheists who are like can can you make atheist. Be 1 of the denominations because that's what I want to be um and I got but what was fascinating was I got a lot of. Latter Day Saint Mormon people. Um, who are like Wow Thank you so much for including mormonism as a denomination like I feel I feel affirmed that you're saying that Mormons are real christians. Yeah, like they they take it very personally which was again like I made it like kind of as a joke. But.

07:58.81
Jeremy
Really.

08:07.94
Jeremy
You're like that's not the point.

08:09.32
forestandtrees
No, no well as yeah, it was very. It was very touching and and kind of sad to think like oh there, you know mormons feel discriminated or feel like left out and of course I also got a lot of comments by people of like I can't believe you included Mormons Mormons aren't real christians so to speak to.

08:21.70
Jeremy
Just can't win.

08:24.93
forestandtrees
It just it was It was a fascinating experiment as I said and it's interesting to see how people are craving unity craving to be included and but also people are like wanting to be exclusionary and push other people out. Yeah yeah, ah what? what a world.

08:36.16
Jeremy
Correct.

08:43.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, what a time to be alive. Ah well here's something that maybe all Christians can agree on is worship right? isn't that the ultimate goal of of christianity. Yeah yeah, you tell me all right? So jumping ahead to Verse nine here.

08:54.70
Jeremy
Ah, yeah, we yeah, we definitely agree on that. Ah.

09:02.88
forestandtrees
And said he also came so that the gentiles might give glory to God for his mercies to them that is what the psalmist meant when he wrote for this I'll praise you among the gentiles I'll sing praises to your name. So this speaks to like a ah big theme throughout the bible I would I would say that god's. Ultimate goal for all of creation seems to be that ultimately at the end of time everyone will bow down and worship him and you know he's constantly you know like we talked about before jealous of false gods and people worshipping the wrong God The wrong version of God and Blah Blah blah and it's ah. I Don't know it. It is I understand a very kind of Cliche annoying like atheist type of critique to say like oh God's a big narcissist because he wants people to worship him but it is something that it truly bothered me even when I was a Christian It seemed a little bit like a character flaw to me like God's supposed to have be the ultimate moral character. But he's coming off a little bit insecure and seems to have a bit of an inflated ego. Ah yeah, yeah, if he needs Worship So That's my question wouldn't God be a healthier person if he wasn't seeking our praise and affirmation all the time.

10:03.61
Jeremy
Looks a little needy here. God.

10:15.72
Jeremy
Ah, totally totally resonate with your line of thought here.

00:00.00
Jeremy
I Totally resonate with your line of thinking here and I think it's equally comical the way we you know, kind of picture this God like sing to me sing to me, you know, like the problem is the way we tend to think of worship and the way most Christians use The word is only about singing.

00:12.10
forestandtrees
Um.

00:19.13
Jeremy
Right? We we get in church service Now it's time to worship. What what do we really mean now it's time to sing right? So we we've made those synonymous. They're not synonymous. They shouldn't be synonymous but we have made them that way. So then we think why does God want us to sing to God for eternity like.

00:25.30
forestandtrees
Um.

00:36.71
forestandtrees
Um.

00:37.00
Jeremy
Sounds like a maniac and I would even say like this sounds weird god fun fact jesus never asked us to sing to him so Jesus did walk around like yo Peter play that song again. Let roll it. You know this like wasn't a thing Jesus was doing.

00:47.67
forestandtrees
Um.

00:56.48
Jeremy
So I would just make note of that right? Jesus didn't go around they they didn't sing to Jesus sing if anything Jesus was participating in singing hymns with them. They did this like in the upper room and stuff so you have different examples of that but I would say we've got to separate. Worship from singing like this is the church has got to stop saying now it's time to worship when you get to your song set like this is doing more damage to people because they just think this is what worship is worship and we talked a little bit about this last week with Amanda is ascribing value to something.

01:19.25
forestandtrees
Um.

01:29.10
forestandtrees
Um.

01:30.72
Jeremy
It is saying I am acknowledging I'm highlighting I'm praising if you will the value in something and I would say we worship a whole bunch of things. This is a point Amanda made last week now here's what I would say if god is the source of all beauty and all truth and all goodness. Which I believe god is then our worship of god is our acceptance of reality it is it is posturing ourselves with reality saying this is real I'm ascribing value to that which is real so I would say it's fundamentally a healthy thing for us. It reconnects us.

01:52.18
forestandtrees
Um.

02:09.29
Jeremy
With reality where we're likely to go off thinking? No this is more real and this is more real and this is more real and like worship is the act of centering back on God as our form of reality now I've got a dicey illustration for you that I came up with to answer this question. This.

02:22.47
forestandtrees
Okay.

02:26.86
Jeremy
This could go bad. We'll see I want you to think back to the last election one of the candidate. Yeah, one of the candidate I'm not going to say who one of the candidates lost but he didn't think he lost.

02:33.31
forestandtrees
But 202020 with Rod Biden versus Trump okay, ah.

02:44.91
forestandtrees
Well yeah, that is a controversial take that not everyone will agree with but yes I remember yes first.

02:45.31
Jeremy
You remember this.

02:50.36
Jeremy
Okay, well this is pretty my point now we might think why does it matter if he acknowledges who won why does it matter if we acknowledge who won like can't we disagree on this and I would say no.

03:01.90
forestandtrees
Um.

03:07.67
forestandtrees
Ah.

03:09.30
Jeremy
Because only one of them lines up with reality right? So this is part of my problem with the the trumpism when it gets out of control running rampant is it creates alternate realities that there can be only 1 winner in an election right? and so you know he's.

03:12.22
forestandtrees
Yeah.

03:28.62
Jeremy
Making all these claims that you know this is rig. This is Rick and they're going back and they're verifying this and they have done that gone through that and like I read something the other day like 2 of the companies. He hired to verify election fraud came out and said there was there was no election fraud right? and these are companies he paid to go do this.

03:43.90
forestandtrees
Ah.

03:47.82
Jeremy
So to me I would say that is someone who is out of touch with reality and and so that person would benefit from worshiping that which is real which is again ultimately not even like the election results. Ultimately, it's like what is real what is true right? So that's just 1

04:06.56
forestandtrees
Ah.

04:06.74
Jeremy
Small sliver of a symptom of what I think is going on worship is a scribing value where it belongs and if you are are a Christian and you're saying god is you know all of these things. Worship is realigning your posture your heart your mind. Your values your opinions your decisions you make all around that which is real and if god turns out that god actually looks like Jesus then worship in this form is is aligning ourselves with reality now if if god if I'm wrong on this.

04:39.39
forestandtrees
So.

04:44.70
Jeremy
And god isn't god doesn't look like Jesus and or there is no god right? then worship is a complete waste of time as we understand it. But even then I would say then I'm still going to worship other things and that goes back to what you're saying about atheism I understand that the the tension of bible atheism isn't another channel.

04:59.29
forestandtrees
Ah.

05:03.27
Jeremy
You know it's It's turning your Tv off but I would say Atheism is a set of Beliefs and Atheism has its own values and from that point of view. You could say it is something. It's not a lack of something. It's not just we believe nothing. No, you have other beliefs and other values and.

05:05.70
forestandtrees
Ah.

05:10.52
forestandtrees
Um.

05:19.30
Jeremy
You know you don't become a shell of a person when you become an atheist you just believe different things and you you hold different things as important and as true and so in that regard I would say you can put all these in the same Category. So I would say all of us worship things. The question really is do we worship that which is real that which is True. So This has nothing to do with God's fragile Ego. This has everything to do with are we are we aligned with reality and if God is who I think God is then me worshiping God is ultimately resetting me to to focus on that which is true.

05:56.39
forestandtrees
Yeah I I think that makes sense to me. Um, turn think yeah so many different way So many different places to go with that like um, when I think about like what what is worship for me now in terms of like ascribing. Value to something I don't know because yeah I've I've definitely heard like a lot of atheists make the argument of like worship as a specifically like religious term like they say like I don't you know I I Love my wife I don't worship my wife I don't ask my wife to worship me that would be super egotistical and unhealthy or like I don't. Worship my career even if my career is the most important thing but by mean I understand what you're saying in terms of like if you just define it as ascribing worth to something then yeah like I worship all kinds of things and ah yeah in and in a way I can say like maybe it's not even a waste of time like it's just it's like. Taking stock and appreciation for things like when I was thinking about worship culture in Church. Um, as a Christian that that was something that I thought about all the time was like I I felt not very like spiritually connected when I was like standing. In church during a worship set most of the time I just felt kind of awkward and uncomfortable and I would feel much more like potent religious experiences when I was out in nature like on a hike or something like that and yeah, at the time I thought that you know this is like me connecting with God but like now it's like even if you know I don't know if god's.

07:10.96
Jeremy
Oh.

07:27.40
forestandtrees
Out there or not or if it's just some amorphous mysterious god or if there's no god but whatever I you know I still feel those kind of like transcendent moments and it's like I don't am I worshiping the mountains and the trees like there are person or am I just you know, just appreciating the beauty. You know I think that's a very. Healthy thing I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out like what Paul is getting at here with romance because maybe I'm like bringing some of my like old testament jealous lover version of god to this reading of the verse all right because he also came so the gentiles might give glory to god. So I yeah I guess you could interpret that as just ascribing worth and saying that god is.

08:10.40
Jeremy
Well.

00:01.70
Jeremy
I think in Paul's more immediate sense the way he's using it is the idea of inclusion for gentiles right? like when the jews would think about worship. It was very much this is us in god this is something ah you know that we almost like we've got the we've we've got the ownership of this and. Paul is saying no no no god's ultimate goal ultimate goal is like all people would come to know who god is would be able to to use our term ascribe value to god see the value rally of god take how.

00:31.36
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I saw your camera logo flash there. But you're we're still recording as far as I know in your bat your pictures back.

00:42.58
Jeremy
I I Just now. Yeah I'm some is not right I don't I don't even know how to fix this now.

00:48.16
forestandtrees
Yeah, coming in and out I know.

00:58.81
Jeremy
I mean I'm out of ideas of what to change unless I and can't reboot a camera.

01:01.39
forestandtrees
Of what to do? yeah.

01:12.41
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean I don't know I guess the only other thing is I could start I could start like reboot my computer start a new recording with Zencastr here I guess is something I could try on my end.

01:28.57
Jeremy
Let me see here.

01:38.71
Jeremy
Because like the way my setup works I can select 2 different like options for my external camera and one of them works and one of them doesn't doesn't glitches out and so I've been using the one that works.

01:43.95
forestandtrees
Um.

01:48.89
forestandtrees
We come? Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Oh it's it's like toggling. Not I see.

01:58.36
Jeremy
But it it keeps going to the one that glitches out. Yeah, which is up I was like I can't figure out why you're doing that and I can't change my call settings right? now you usually I can change it.

02:06.24
forestandtrees
Yeah.

02:15.91
Jeremy
Can you restart. We're rerecordable.

02:18.30
forestandtrees
Yeah.

00:00.00
Jeremy
I think what Paul here is specifically talking about is including the gentiles into worship of god which to a jewish audience. You know they would think we're the ones who worship god we have we we have that market and Paul's like no no god wants gentiles to see.

00:09.43
forestandtrees
Um.

00:19.53
Jeremy
Who god is experience the goodness of god have that as their reality as well and so that's why I think the big point Paul's making is like no, it's not just a worship of a few this is like a little bit universalist in in that sense of like no god wants. All people to be included in this process.

00:36.78
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, it's true I guess it um it speaks to what we talked about last week also with um, one day. Ah, every time we'll confess every knee will bow that kind of vision of yeah again, it's you know it it depends so much on like what.

00:43.23
Jeremy
In.

00:53.73
forestandtrees
God's ultimate character is you know like I understand I understand like theologically Christians believe that God is the ultimate goodness. So it's it's appropriate to ascribe all goodness to him I don't know there's also a way to view like the man if God create everything he created the the good and the bad. So.

00:54.41
Jeremy
Right.

01:12.96
forestandtrees
Is called ultimate goodness or is he like the mixed bag of like the world. We find ourselves in. But yeah I yeah I understand that that interpretation and that it doesn't have to be just narrowly um, singing praises all the time.

00:01.74
forestandtrees
All right? Well just just 1 more question here. Um in verse thirteen it says I pray that god the source of hope will fill you completely with joy and peace because you trust in him then you will overflow with confident hope through the power of the holy spirit. So. This this verse as you mentioned at the top of the episode. It reminds me of what we've talked about in the past of like what if you don't feel fulfilled with the holy spirit. The way people are promised and it also reminds me of something you've talked about before when you've been a champion of like doubt and uncertainty and saying like doubt is an important part of faith. I really like that kind of theology I resonate with it quite a bit I'm not sure that I see it represented all that much in the new testament I feel like for the most part people are either. They get to see a miraculous sign for themselves like if they see a miracle from Jesus or something like that or they're encouraged to just believe like in. Keys Eleven one kind of thing um or they're promised supernatural hope and fulfillment from the holy spirit like they are here in in Romans so that's I don't know that's something that I wonder about because I I feel like there are a lot of people who pray for some kind of sign or just. Pray for some kind of feeling of like supernatural peace or confident hope as ah Paul is describing here but I also hear a lot of christians say like you should just believe like even if you don't feel anything just believe so I wonder what your thoughts on that are.

01:35.36
forestandtrees
Someone prays for confident hope and just hears only deafening silence should they keep trying to believe anyway.

01:41.61
Jeremy
Well I would say I have a confident hope in Jesus and I still have doubts so to me this is more about the posture in which we live I don't see it as something you have or don't have and.

01:51.44
forestandtrees
Ah.

01:59.10
Jeremy
I would say you know can we follow Jesus when some things still don't make sense to us to me is the like I have a confident hope I don't think it means it all makes you know perfect sense and I don't mean more questions I love the way Daniel Taylor says this is an author I like he says engagement. Does not erase all skepticism but it gives skepticism less opportunity to be the defining quality of your life. So his point being like just be engaged like you're still going to have the skepticism and you'll always have the skepticism. Um, but if you have engagement with something meaningful. That'll be more of you know the defining part of your life than your skepticism and I think if you wait around until you have some abstract sense of a confident hope before you ever get engaged then you you won't you always have. Skepticism will be your defining quality of life to use Taylor's phrase so I'd argue that no matter what you believe there will always be things that fully don't make sense to you and I think this is part of being a human right? We we live in a world where we go. Yeah I have an explanation or a theory or this is what I think.

03:07.23
forestandtrees
Um.

03:14.66
Jeremy
But we have to acknowledge regardless of where you land on stuff like this is my best guess or this is what makes the most sense to me I think the question then to use Taylor's phrase are you but are you engaging in something meaningful in the midst of that I think is a more intriguing question. So do you? You know? that's why I think convin hope is like. I still am pursuing Jesus even with everything else and so for me, you know I want to be known more for what I believe than what I don't believe and that to me is how I embody confident hope like it doesn't mean I don't have questions doesn't mean that I don't listen to some of things that you say and go yeah, that's a great it's a great point it just means at the end of the day I still put a confident hope in Jesus that I think this is more real than anything else. I found I don't want to end my answer with a great quote. You'll you'll like this this is Frederick Buchner said doubts are the ants in the pants of faith. They keep it awake.

03:51.99
forestandtrees
Um.

04:11.74
Jeremy
And moving I love that so I have doubts they are the ants in the pants of my faith. They keep me moving toward Jesus learning growing challenging my assumptions changing my opinions learning to see the world in new ways.

04:12.79
forestandtrees
Wow, That's that's a vivid analogy. Yeah.

04:30.27
Jeremy
So none of that negates confident hope to me a confident hope is how is the posture you choose in light of acknowledging you're still gonna have doubts.

04:42.96
forestandtrees
The ants and pants. Okay, so I ah and this analogy Obviously I'm the ants in your pants right? because I'm continually ah I mean you brought it up, not me. But.

04:48.22
Jeremy
Wow This this just got so weird. No you you you are not my doubts I have my own doubts Sir you you are? You are your own person.

04:59.72
forestandtrees
Oh okay, well okay, so then in this analogy you've you've got ants that you're already dealing with and then I'm coming up behind you with with a funnel. Ah.

05:09.44
Jeremy
Dumping more ants into my pants. Okay I can I guess I can get more on board with that.

05:14.12
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I'm just ah, just pouring salt in the wound. Ah.

05:20.71
Jeremy
No, that's why I think that's why you know we've talked about this. That's why the premise of this show even ah, intrigued me. You know when we first talked about it like I I also have questions about christianity. So it's not like no why why would I talk about christianity Christian Christianity's perfect and.

05:25.20
forestandtrees
So.

05:35.83
Jeremy
The bible is you know so clear. It's as clear as every christian claims it it. You know it's like no, it's so confusing so complicated so messy. The church has failed in so many ways and yet I still have a confident hope that Jesus is as good as I think he is and so somehow in the midst of that is is the pursuit.

05:44.96
forestandtrees
Um, ah.

05:55.53
forestandtrees
Do you do you think just in your opinion that all Christians have some kind of doubts in the ones who say that they they don't have a shadow of a doubt in their mind and are just filled with confident hope are they being disingenuous or or lying to themselves or I know I'm asking you to judge other people there. But.

05:55.63
Jeremy
It's the conversation.

06:14.16
forestandtrees
Have a theory. Okay.

06:14.18
Jeremy
Well my answer. My answer is very judgedgy which is why I'm smiling. Um, no I don't think I think I think we've talked about this I think there at some level There is a complexity of thought. That some people are more prone to than others I'm trying to say this as kindly as I can and there are some people that don't desire complexity of thought they they want an easy answer to questions and when you give them an easy answer. They're content and I think there's a lot of christians like that where they're not wrestling with things. They're not.

06:34.80
forestandtrees
Um.

06:44.26
forestandtrees
Um.

06:48.83
Jeremy
Exploring nuances you give them a halfway decent answer to something and they're fine. They're good and I would say there's other Christians and I put myself in this category that I can't stomach those kind of answers and the Hobby lobby type versions of christianity are repulsive to me.

06:57.58
forestandtrees
Ah.

07:07.13
Jeremy
And I go that makes no sense. That's cliche. That's not real you know and so I but I've I've done this long enough to say no I do not think everyone has the doubts that I live with who is following Jesus.

07:12.20
forestandtrees
Um.

07:21.38
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, that's true that that rings true for me because so yeah, sometimes when I when I talk to friends about this and like I'm trying to think I'm thinking of conversations I've had with friends who are like like they're surprised and kind of saddened to hear like I'm not a christian anymore. But. They're like I don't they say like wouldn't it just be easier like it's simpler or like I had a friend who said like I just feel like maybe it's because you don't have kids because like once you start a family then it just makes sense because this is just like the proper way to like build up your family or something like that and to me that just seems like. The opposite of how I feel because I'm like like this whole journey of religious confusion and childhood indoctrination is like 1 of my number 1 reasons for not wanting to have kids because I don't know what I want what I want to teach them and I'd be terrified of bringing them up either religious or non-religious and just like. Growing up their worldview in some way. Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, you must deal with that times. 5 can you can't imagine.

08:16.15
Jeremy
Oh it's a thing. Yeah.

08:23.67
Jeremy
Well I think we realized a while ago like every parent screws their kid up somehow like there's no way not to I mean because we're all broken in different ways and so you end up literally doing the best you can and then if you have multiple kids you realize.

08:29.94
forestandtrees
Yeah.

08:43.46
Jeremy
You I mean you could have 10 and I think they all would be totally different and if they're parent them totally different I have to parent my 5 completely differently like I can't just go oh this is what I do for each of you like it won't work and they won't respond to it and so you get used to like well this worked on 4 of you and then you know.

08:52.68
forestandtrees
Um.

09:02.48
Jeremy
Ah, fifth. 1 ne's like nope it's not gonna work on me, you're like okay I gotta change it again. You know it's like you're just constantly doing your best. So yeah I I would just alleviate any any fear you have of that every parent probably feels that.

09:13.84
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's tough I know we're get. We're getting into a different topic here, but it's all right? It's It's interesting to kind of imagine like what would happen if I if I like allowed myself to have these serious doubts when I was younger like if I was like a teenager and I just like came out as an atheist like in youth group or something like that like how. Would they respond to that. What? What would my parents say I mean it's yeah I mean it's impossible to know but I don't know. Yeah, it's just something I think about a lot of like how do you allow young people to come to their own conclusions about what they believe without indoctrinating them like it seems like it's kind of impossible to not. Indoctrinate like you said with impossible not to mess up your kids.

09:54.94
Jeremy
Um, well because you're you you are teaching every parent does this, you are teaching your kids values and I would say even if you're an atheist parent. You are teaching your kids values you're trying to teach them what matters in the world. What doesn't matter right? and.

10:01.47
forestandtrees
Um.

10:06.81
forestandtrees
Right? right.

10:10.33
Jeremy
Even saying don't put value in christianity is a is a value in a sense saying you know value something else, don't It's like anything you you raise your kids with you're you're indoctrinating I know if you want to use that word. It's obviously a negative term but that's the challenge of parenting and what what I'm trying to do is give my.

10:18.18
forestandtrees
Yeah.

10:30.14
Jeremy
Give my kids as robust of an experience you know with healthy values to model and discuss and even like church I want them to see a variety of models of church. So that in their own journey I Fully expect some of them may not go to church.

10:42.87
forestandtrees
Um.

10:47.97
Jeremy
Some of them may go to a different church you know style than I prefer or whatever but I want them to have seen it be aware of it have like a bigger idea than just this is what christianity is and so it's more like hey I want to launch you well and show you you know what's out there. So Even like when they ask me questions on stuff. About christianity I'll usually say like well most Christians would say it's this you know I would lean this way So like even when I'm giving them my answer I'm giving them a counterpoint like hey if you ask you know your friends this you're probably going to hear this answer and to me that's.

11:20.13
forestandtrees
So.

11:23.74
Jeremy
That's the best I can offer them to say hey at some point you're gonna have to make sense out of all this for yourself and I at least want you to be prepared and aware of you know what's out there.

11:33.86
forestandtrees
Yeah, maybe maybe ah, a nicer term than indoctrination is bias right? like you could say like there is no politically neutral piece of journalism. Everyone's bias or there is no neutral piece of art because Th was made by a human who has ah has their own opinions about everything.

11:37.61
Jeremy
Server right.

11:51.54
forestandtrees
Um, that yeah that that makes sense to me I appreciate that I guess going back to the the confident hope thing you seem to be interpreting this as kind of like an internal emotional thing rather than like a supernatural hope that's provided supernaturally by the Holy spirit is that right.

12:10.93
Jeremy
Ah I I think you can think of it Either way, it's like you know how am I able to do this Well I would say like I have learned to trust the spirit in all of this and so.

12:18.80
forestandtrees
Um.

12:26.40
Jeremy
You know the spirit is what guides me in all the nitty gritty of this. So I think I just I get hesitant to say that because then it sounds more like a gift you have or don't have or I think everybody can do this. It's just you know learning to rely on the Holy spirit.

12:31.17
forestandtrees
Um.

12:38.68
forestandtrees
Ah.

12:45.12
Jeremy
Rather than it's ah I think if we view the that like this may be where your question was coming from of like this Holy spirit is going to give you power if you if the holy spirit wants to or if you pray right? That's where I think like I don't think that's as helpful for people able to Understand. Um, it's like no this is the posture you do it and the only reason I can do this posture is because of the holy spirit because I literally just trust God's spirit daily in these conversations and that's how I navigate it. But it's not like I've been given something that other people don't have.

13:15.45
forestandtrees
Yeah, because just when I went out right when I was thinking about this question it I was kind of thinking of it of just the same way that god does or doesn't answer any other prayer like if you pray for healing if you're sick like god may or may not grant that in the same way that if you pray for this confident hope. Kind of reminded me of like we talked about in our bonus episode where my wife was in the hospital and people would say I'm praying for you to have like peace of mind and I'm like I don't think those persons got answered because I felt super anxious and stressed a lot of the time so I didn't I didn't feel like a supernatural sense of peace or anything. But. You know I don't know maybe maybe I didn't like have faith and that's why yeah yeah, right? I guess I guess Paul doesn't guarantee. He says I'm praying for it but he doesn't he's not saying like you're guaranteed.

13:57.76
Jeremy
Or or maybe God didn't answer the prayer.

14:10.44
Jeremy
Well and notice you know the the first sentence in 13 Well why is this because you trust in him like that seems to be what I'm saying of like choosing to trust god even when I don't necessarily understand all this like that's why.

14:11.80
forestandtrees
To get it in this verse.

14:19.69
forestandtrees
Ah, her.

14:21.71
forestandtrees
Okay.

14:27.55
Jeremy
Like that's what Paul's talking about you know, like if you trust god like this like then you give the holy spirit a chance to help you navigate this I just I think sometimes christians we almost like we make it abstract we're like well god didn't give it to me therefore I can't do this and that's why I'd say no no, no like this is a posture you can choose like.

14:41.38
forestandtrees
Okay.

14:46.64
Jeremy
To rely on the holy spirit in this way and you know I also agree Paul is praying this literally this is a prayer. He's saying that you'd have joy and peace and I think people experience those in different measures. You know as well. But I think it's more of like this is a daily posture of learning to trust god. Living by the holy spirit and the hoping that the power of the holy spirit helps you work through the areas that are confusing or you have doubts or you still go. Yeah I'm not quite sure.

15:17.79
forestandtrees
So you you're right? You got to kind of meet him halfway there a little bit. You're like ah you're like Peter stepping out to walk on the water if if you lose focus for one second you're done.

15:28.88
Jeremy
And I don't know that's quite where he's going with this but but yeah, maybe.

15:37.54
forestandtrees
Okay, yeah, one can only help um all right? Well so I guess I guess this acknowledge that there's like a whole half of this chapter I didn't have questions about because falls kind of wrapping up with the closing credits here and spoiler alert chapter 16 is just all.

15:52.29
Jeremy
Talk Credits No Jeff no.

15:53.18
forestandtrees
Closing credit. So there's there's nothing there's nothing good you can just skip the next episode. It's gonna be totally boring right? Jeremy now it's gonna be great. We're gonna have. We're go have a very special guest god willinging it's it's gonna be awesome and then we don't know what we're doing next right? we're we're taking a break. But.

16:08.51
Jeremy
We don't know now little summer breaks.

16:12.42
forestandtrees
We have no yeah, we have no no plans I mean we plan to continue I think ah it's as long as you're on Board Jeremy But what we don't know what book we're doing or anything so we're we're open to suggestions now. Yeah figured out as we go.

16:22.40
Jeremy
Got to figure out where to go next.

16:29.31
forestandtrees
Any any other closing thoughts for us.

16:33.58
Jeremy
I'm just glad we got this episode recorded. This was our most technically difficult episode. We had numerous issues and Jeff Jeff teased me that it was angels and demons in in the broadcast. So who's to say.

16:35.46
forestandtrees
Yeah, we are. We are truly living on a prayer but I have confident hope that. Next week is going to be a spectacular conclusion to this book of romans and it's going to be beautiful. We're gonna we're gonna find out what what this book is all about unlock the mysteries and.

16:58.23
Jeremy
Woo I like what you did there.

17:07.44
Jeremy
Are we we had to wait till sixteen to get to that no look at.

17:13.51
forestandtrees
Yeah, final final thoughts conclusions I don't know it'll be fun. Well we'll figure it out. Thanks everyone for bearing with us in in this ah chaotic episode and talk to you in chapter 16