Is it okay to eat meat? A Christian Carnivore, a Vegan Atheist, and a Vegan Christian discuss dietary ethics. Jeremy and Jef are joined by Pastor, Church Planter, Spiritual Pioneer, and Vegan Amanda Miller Garber to talk about it.
Topics
Are vegans too judgy?
Why don’t Christians care about animal rights?
Why doesn’t God care about animal rights?
Why care so much about a secondary issue?
How does God get everyone to bow down to him without being coercive?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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YouTube
Facebook
Is it okay to eat meat? A Christian Carnivore, a Vegan Atheist, and a Vegan Christian discuss dietary ethics. Jeremy and Jef are joined by Pastor, Church Planter, Spiritual Pioneer, and Vegan Amanda Miller Garber to talk about it.
Topics
Are vegans too judgy?
Why don’t Christians care about animal rights?
Why doesn’t God care about animal rights?
Why care so much about a secondary issue?
How does God get everyone to bow down to him without being coercive?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
00:00.00
Jeremy
Welcome friends to the forest and the trees we are all the way toward the end of the book romans chapter 14 my name is Jeremy I'm joined today as always by my friend. Jeff.
00:12.17
forestandtrees
You know Jeremy normally we're trying to find the forest through the trees I think today we're trying to find the broccoli through the cheese.
00:16.90
Jeremy
Um o oo I like that that is that's clever. it's it's clever it's gonna make sense in a moment because romans fourteen has a very interesting. Subject that's near and dear to Jeff's heart so in addition, we have a treat for you today. We have a guest with us who is going to help us bring this material to life Jeff we want to introduce who we've got with us today.
00:47.13
forestandtrees
Yes, we have a pastor preacher Amanda Garber um who is ah ah, a vegan Christian Pastor we I wanted to bring on someone to the podcast who is a christian vegan to talk about it from that perspective because. Myself I'm a nonch christiantian vegan Jeremy is a christian non-vegan. So yeah, welcome Amanda thank you for being our token Christian vegan and agreeing to be on here. Ah yeah, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your ministry. Whatever whatever you want to say.
01:20.66
Amanda Miller Garber
sure sure I feel a little bit like a magical unicorn here. Um so you know? Yeah yeah, we are. We're real hard to find. Um, so as you said my name's Amanda I live in the shenandoah valley of Virginia.
01:22.94
forestandtrees
Yeah, they're hard to find. Yeah.
01:37.15
Amanda Miller Garber
So I'm very biased but I think it is a stunningly beautiful area near shenandoah national park and more specifically I'm in the Harrisonburg Virginia area near James Madison university that's we are most known for shenandoah national park and James Madison University there's ah lot more to love about this area. So I've been here for 15 years that is really hard to believe and I planted a church I I never like that word never fits well to be honest for who we are but it's how most people understand us at this point. Planted a kind of wonderful quirky unique expression of church called rise with a group of 12 college students. They're now in their mid 30 s I think a lot of them but we.
02:19.29
forestandtrees
A.
02:31.76
Amanda Miller Garber
Set out on an adventure together an almost accidentally planted faith community I'm super biased. But I think it's beautiful. It's authentic. It's messy and it has taught me an enormous amount. About myself about my creator and about humanity I also have 2 teenagers one 14 year old and 1 almost 18 year old. She will be.
03:02.40
forestandtrees
Amazing.
03:04.93
Amanda Miller Garber
On Wednesday so I guess soon I'll only have one teenager and I have a ridiculous dog who I'm really hoping doesn't cause problems during our time together and I love to grow things occasionally food mostly perennials I I mean I'm kind of ah. Cliche especially if I'm here at we in the vegan name tag I love to hide I love national parks I genuinely love granola I mean I really, it's one of my favorites next? Um I wish I could say I did a lot of yoga but I'm a little too hyperactive for that. But I really value yoga.
03:29.80
forestandtrees
Um.
03:33.55
forestandtrees
A.
03:42.79
Amanda Miller Garber
Ah, try to run you know I don't sit still well. Um, and I'm a caffeine addict and I'm not sorry about it at all. So when people try to shame me for that I'm like you're It's not gonna work I Love caffeine. So yeah, and you'll probably ask me more about ah how I.
03:56.40
forestandtrees
Yeah.
04:02.11
Amanda Miller Garber
Adopted the plant based lifestyle so I'll stop there but and I have a partner named Jack who is a physician assistant. So.
04:03.65
forestandtrees
Yeah.
04:10.89
forestandtrees
Okay, great. Yeah, No thanks for sharing all that. Um, yeah, we we can certainly talk more about the the philosophy of Veganism. Ah, when we get into the questions a little bit here. But yeah I resonate with you in like feeling like am am I fulfilling too many of the vegan stereotypes here. Just bought I just bought a pair of Chacos the other day because I wanted hiking sandals but I bought them used because I'm trying to not buy any new clothing so you know is this just making it is it just just making it worse for Us. You know I apologize.
04:29.91
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, yeah, are so great. Yeah I know I know I used to I used to joke about the Chaco Cult I really did until I got a pair and I'm a tree believer now I am.
04:44.80
forestandtrees
Ah, never look back. Yeah.
04:49.26
Amanda Miller Garber
Love my chacos. Yeah I am I am a bit stereotypical drive a Subaru you know it's it's okay because these are things that I authentically believe in and I'm not sure I believe in Subaru but I appreciate my subaru so anyway. Yeah yeah.
05:06.90
forestandtrees
I I believe sub is exist personally yeah, all right? ah something I just wanted to say up upfront here you know, just full disclosure I I feel like I'm I'm kind of taking Roman 14 out of context a little bit and running with it to my own ends because you know Paul Paul clearly is not.
05:08.58
Amanda Miller Garber
I do too I do yeah.
05:23.46
forestandtrees
Ah, super vegan champion here I feel like his main point seems to be just like everybody trying to get everybody to get along and stuff but it's something that I'm so interested in and it's something that I think is really interesting when I think about like christianity atheism like. I've seen so many people who after they leave christianity adopt veganism afterwards and then looking back I think like why aren't more Christians Vegan. It seems to align with ah so many of their values about compassion Nonviolence things like that. So.
05:41.84
Amanda Miller Garber
Oh.
05:56.60
forestandtrees
Yeah, just just one to say ah you know apologies in advance for you know, being a stereotypical vegan again and just using this platform to to get all preachy on you.
06:04.87
Jeremy
Well, this will be great because we all are gonna come at this slightly different so we have you know 2 vegans one non-vegan 2 christians one non-christian you know and and Amanda you're kind of like right in the middle you're the bridge connecting Jeff and I on this episode.
06:20.26
forestandtrees
Yeah, the Venn diagram.
06:21.89
Amanda Miller Garber
You know I fill that role a lot I've learned in life and it's an important role to fill. Yeah.
06:24.81
Jeremy
Okay, so let's dive in I want to read the first few verses here and then ask you both a question right out of the gate. So Paul writes this except other believers who are weak in faith and don't argue with them about what they think is right. Or wrong. For instance, 1 person believes. It's all right to eat anything but another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't and those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do. For god has accepted them so I'm just good. Let's just get right to it is this a hard verse for the 2 of you guys to practice. Do you feel that as vegans you're quicker to judge people who eat meat. Let's just be honest, let's put all the cards on the table there. It is. That's my question.
07:18.92
forestandtrees
Do you want to go first. Amanda.
07:23.90
Amanda Miller Garber
Oh sure. Um, you know at first I want to say no like I don't judge people for what they eat and I will say I will say back to the stereotypes. I have really worked to not become the preachy judgmental vegan or what I affectionately call the fundamentalist vegan um because I don't enjoy those type of folks and so I just really tried. To practice the phrase this works for me. It's just made a difference in my life. My health my growth it works for me that you know you do you I really try to adopt that posture and I think I would give myself a solid ah b maybe.
07:57.65
Jeremy
M.
08:15.45
Amanda Miller Garber
Maybe a b plus depends on the day in that. Um I also though I want to be really authentic and say there are times when I encounter people and the ways they approach creation or the ways they approach food and theology where i. Maybe internally become a little judgey ah and not proud of that always working on that for me, it's not about any meat consumption. Um I mean one of my children my fourteen year olds a vegetarian his choice completely his choice.
08:51.20
forestandtrees
So.
08:53.14
Amanda Miller Garber
Ah, my my other. My daughter um is a proud omnivore and and I think it was in a sits a little bit of rebellion for her eat all the chicken nuggets but's you know this is how children of Vegans Rebel but all this is to say.
09:06.50
forestandtrees
Um.
09:12.46
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, I really try. Um, not to be judgey to allow people to ah to understand that people are on their own Journeys of life and Faith. It is hard though sometimes when I encounter folks who um, either eat. Are particularly judgmental toward me because I've also experienced that I Ah I do not share ah very readily that I am vegan because I have learned that.
09:34.14
Jeremy
Right.
09:34.73
forestandtrees
M.
09:45.46
Amanda Miller Garber
It can make what could have been a lovely social interaction just go really off the rails. Um, and it's like once they learn that about me, they won't hear anything else same thing with with me telling people I'm a pastor I mean truly like um.
09:49.40
forestandtrees
Yeah.
09:54.44
Jeremy
Oh.
10:01.50
Amanda Miller Garber
I Often don't lead with that because there are assumptions made with that that can just shut down Relationships. So I Guess let me sum up by saying I really try I Really try not to but it does happen sometimes and it typically happens when I hear Phrases. Or have conversations around ah food where people seem callous or uncaring when it comes to care for animals and the greater creation.
10:31.46
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.
10:33.41
forestandtrees
Yeah, thanks for sharing that I yeah I I think I agree with a lot of that I definitely struggle with this idea of of being judgey like how do you disagree with people about like this morality issue and not judge them. You know I think about that of like.
10:48.35
Amanda Miller Garber
Um.
10:51.38
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean I I would say if you were to ask me I think it's wrong to eat animals. But I mean 99% of my friends and family are actively doing that. So like you know am I going to say that they're just that all of my friends of family are moral Monsters. You know like it's it's It's a very uncomfortable. Place to be and and it's interesting to think about the parallels between you know, like when I was a Christian I had the same kind of thought I thought like all my Non-christian friends are like living in Sin or going to hell or whatever. So It's like I feel like I have something I'm supposed to tell them but also like I don't want to come off too judgy about it. So I'm not Even. You know, not even sure like how to proceed I mean I agree that just like tactfully for the most part I Just keep my mouth shut and try to just like not be that guy not make a think of it I don't enjoy the judgmental as buck to aspect of it. Believe it or not um.
11:37.73
Amanda Miller Garber
Me.
11:46.81
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, um.
11:48.45
forestandtrees
But I don't know I think another just important thing is like you were saying a man is is empathy and understanding like it's very easy for me to understand like where a meeting person is coming from because such were some of you. You know I used to eat meat all the time I and enjoyed the taste of it I enjoyed the convenience of it. I. You know I totally understand like what that feels like where those people are coming from and that you know people have different priorities am I frozen for you guys.
00:02.31
forestandtrees
So I'll say yeah that that's something I feel conflicted about I Definitely don't enjoy being a ah Judgey judgmental kind of person believe it or not and it's I'm honestly undecided about how to proceed. Exactly and like what's what's the best way to communicate what I believe without judging others and just you know like let everyone be on their own path I think it's It's very easy for me to empathize with people and where they're at because someone who.
00:30.15
Amanda Miller Garber
Um.
00:37.11
forestandtrees
Currently eating meat like not that long ago and for most of my life I was someone who ate meat and I enjoyed the taste of it and enjoyed the convenience of it and you know totally understand like being in that place and like not even thinking about this angle of like how is this like a moral issue. So Yeah and I'm trying to and of course like. Internal consistency is important too right? Like that's obviously I would I wouldn't be able to tell anyone? Ah what they can or cannot eat if I wasn't practicing it myself. So That's the most important thing but also just trying to be empathetic and trying to be. Open minded and just assume the best of people like everyone is on a journey. Everyone has different priorities for how they're trying to live their life. So yeah, feel totally conflicted about it to summarize.
01:25.86
Amanda Miller Garber
Well and the thing is ah you know, just just like with faith or christianity. Um a judgmental approach rarely draws people closer to us.
01:36.89
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.
01:39.58
forestandtrees
Um.
01:39.89
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, and it rarely leads to the kind of relationship that changes minds and hearts and which is why I just early on adopted this posture of like hey this is like my own journey and I'm glad to talk about it if you want me to but like I don't it just works for me. And sometimes people are really curious. Really really curious and I'm more than glad share my story and I share it in a really authentic way and that is that the beginning of it I kind of went kicking and screaming I mean I was not not the happy early vegan. Um, and.
02:03.97
forestandtrees
Um.
02:15.35
forestandtrees
Um.
02:18.54
Amanda Miller Garber
And I try to make it as relatable and approachable. Um, but the the level of judgments and emotional reactivity that is connected to food in general um like theology and food I've said a very they're just like. Explosive the combination of the 2 I've said a million times they are 3 things I think that uniquely make people extremely emotionally reactive and like move back to their like you know reptile brains and that is the top the the top picks of food. Theology and politics ah are you know any of those 3 and then if we combine the 2 who hold on to your hats friends because it's gonna be a wild ride. So anyway, yeah, judgments.
02:58.30
forestandtrees
Ah.
03:13.32
Amanda Miller Garber
It's a thing. Um.
03:13.76
Jeremy
I Remember being a food server and realizing how passionate and opinionated and picky people are about what they're about to eat and that's why I learned that lesson of like Wow food really matters to people.
03:16.80
forestandtrees
It's a thing.
03:26.77
forestandtrees
Ah.
03:28.46
Amanda Miller Garber
And her.
03:30.56
Jeremy
Because you get 1 thing slightly off from what they think you know and they they would you know this seemingly nice kind person would suddenly you know be a total jerk to you and it's like wow just over over a plate of food being a little different than you know than you had ordered it.
03:39.50
Amanda Miller Garber
Yeah, if.
03:47.81
Amanda Miller Garber
Yep, there's like there are family stories connected with food. There's shame connected with food. There's I mean um, it's It's just fascinating and I think all the time It's just food. But it's not just food. It's so much more? Yep yep.
04:04.78
Jeremy
Yeah.
04:09.72
forestandtrees
Yeah, well lot of emotional baggage for sure all right? Well so now that I've already said that I I don't want to be the judgmental vegan. Maybe I should just ah, lean fully into go full judgment mode here with this next question. So I'm gonna read ah the the final verse in. Romans 14 we're Paul kind of sums this up and he says verse 23 but if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something you are sinning if you go ahead and do it for you are not following your convictions if you do anything you believe is not right? you are sinning. So I think this verse. Kind of speaks to the cognitive dissonance I see when people try to create some kind of a rationalization to this kind of thing. Obviously the the church in Rome in the first century is a very different culture from our current culture we have where we have factory farming how I would personally argue that anyone who's even. Vaguely aware of the practices of factory farming and the problematic nature of that is has some doubt in their mind has some you know inkling of like maybe I should research this a little bit further and just again to say and in my anecdotal experience I would say that. Christians that I know for the most part just couldn't care less about animal rights in this way couldn't care less about the problematic nature of factory farming and the way that animals are treated. So yeah, it's just something that I'm generally discouraged about and I I wanted to ask.
05:40.10
forestandtrees
Ah, both of you guys Jeremy and Amanda why do you think it is that christians seem to be so apathetic even even more apathetic than non-believers when it comes to this issue.
05:54.75
Amanda Miller Garber
Ah I would start by saying it's learned behavior Multi-generational learned behavior. Um I think that some of this root I would connect some of this to a root.
06:11.34
Amanda Miller Garber
Real misunderstanding of Genesis one. Um, where human humans are told to depends on the translation. But you know take dominion and so for so many of us instead of understanding that as a conversation where God is saying. I have given you this wondrous creation take care of it tend it. Um, you know I'm giving this is a responsibility far too many of us read that as do whatever you want.
06:45.80
Jeremy
Ah.
06:45.33
Amanda Miller Garber
That is an oversimplification but I hear that over and over and over again and that's just incredibly incredibly problematic. Um, and then and also there is in my opinion, a striking.
06:51.46
forestandtrees
A.
07:04.62
Amanda Miller Garber
Relationship with America or interconnectedness in american christianity in particular um with white nationalism and capitalism unchecked capitalism and christianity. It's we're just a big old soup of it to big old swirly mess of all of these forces and unfortunately unchecked capitalism and white supremacy often have the upper hand as far as the forces that really shape.
07:24.69
forestandtrees
A.
07:38.92
Amanda Miller Garber
The choices we make and the ways we live our lives as people who identify as Christian and when capitalism ah particularly unchecked I always want to qualify that as the upper hand.
07:45.79
Jeremy
Um.
07:51.23
forestandtrees
A.
07:56.00
Amanda Miller Garber
Factory farming is always going to win when these forces that in my opinion just my opinion direct many of them directly contradict the message of Jesus but when they win at the end of the day when they have the most power that's that's why? um.
08:15.58
forestandtrees
Um.
08:15.79
Amanda Miller Garber
And it's hard to find people who are trying to offer a different message or a different understanding of what it means to live faithful lives in really practical ways and you know what would Jesus eat. Think it's a fascinating question but that's that's my rambling take on that Jeremy. What do you think.
08:40.67
Jeremy
I Think it's well said I would add you know I think Christians can be generally less concerned with human life too than non-believers and ah so that you know and I saw that question I actually thought well we're not good at this in general. Um.
08:48.83
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, yes.
08:56.29
Jeremy
Because I think what happens you know this is exactly what you know Amanda was saying but like we can create an abstract sense of morality sometimes which I think ultimately is something that christians hide behind. So I talk about what it means to follow Jesus in abstract terms that have no bearing on real life. So then freeze me to go do whatever I want behind these terms that I'm saying I'm you know I'm voiding sin and this and that but well what is it right? and the moment you name it and this is what I have learned as a preacher people are fine to talk about sin until you name the sin because the moment you name the sin then it's like oh I do that and and so you're saying I got to you know.
09:28.85
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, here is it.
09:34.52
Jeremy
It's like they like the idea of yeah void saying follow Jesus we we are much more comfortable with these in abstract terms. But the moment you suggest hey you know taking the life of another human is is not what Jesus has called you to It's like who whoa whoa what what about what about what about and you know. All these examples. So I think totally you know when you get into the nitty gritty of what does it actually mean then to honor life or honor human life or honor animal life. Then I think it starts getting real and that's where people get uncomfortable. So I think to me this is symptomatic of. You know we we like morality vague we. We don't want it. You know, real or practical and when preachers get in trouble with their church and get a huge reaction is when they speak to specifics and they name sin and they name you know different things and so I think it's it's that tension of.
10:13.17
Amanda Miller Garber
Um.
10:29.25
Jeremy
Most Christians will probably tell you Yeah, we love animals. They're great and in the moment you would get into any this with civics. You know, be like Well what's you know? Yeah, what's wrong with that and and I think that's that's not unique to this topic. That's something christianity needs to work on in general.
10:31.73
forestandtrees
And.
10:36.36
Amanda Miller Garber
Um.
10:44.79
Amanda Miller Garber
Oh that's such such a fabulous Such a fabulous point. We don't value life I mean I yeah I could just fill up the rest of our time naming the ways we like to talk about valuing life. But if you look at the ways we live.
10:47.67
forestandtrees
Um.
10:58.64
Jeremy
Ah.
10:59.49
forestandtrees
Um.
11:03.94
Amanda Miller Garber
We don't over and over and over again. Um, and so it's not surprising that we wouldn't value the life of animals and or the people who work in those factories. Fun fact about the Shenandoah Valley we used to be.
11:15.34
Jeremy
On the hand.
11:21.78
Amanda Miller Garber
Maybe still are the poultry capital of the world and because of the number of Cargill Farms chicken farms literally right out my back door here. There are multiple houses and there are appalling conditions in those factory farms.
11:22.92
Jeremy
Really.
11:25.51
forestandtrees
Um.
11:31.25
forestandtrees
He.
11:40.80
forestandtrees
M.
11:41.73
Amanda Miller Garber
And so a way these animals are treated is appalling at least to me but also the way the human beings are treated in those Factory Farms are it's absolutely disgusting. Um, and so feel we can figure out what it means to have.
11:55.93
Jeremy
Ah.
11:57.14
forestandtrees
Um.
12:00.34
Amanda Miller Garber
An ethic of life that is actually embodied in daily ways of being a human then I I don't know. But yeah, we love ideas of um, you know. Life and Justice and all these things. However, that's that's the orthodoxy the orthopraxy um is where we seem to be sorely lacking.
12:28.10
Jeremy
Amen.
12:28.80
forestandtrees
Yeah I think what? yeah what both of you guys have said here definitely bears out in some of the like the vegan versus non vegan debates that I've seen online. Um, you know I made it what you when you're talking about how. Capitalism breeds factory farming. You know that's a common objection people will say of like okay well what if I only buy like free range animals grass-fed where the animal is guaranteed to have been treated well up until the moment they're killed. You know, like that would be obviously much more defensible than factory farming where the animals are basically tortured their whole lives. Ah, problem is that's like less than 1% of the meat you see in the supermarket is is created that way and if we wanted to create a world where it was that style of like traditional ethical farming or whatever we ever. We'd have to change our lives lifestyle. We'd have to eat like one tenth the amount of meat.
13:00.89
Amanda Miller Garber
Um.
13:07.58
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, remember.
13:12.13
Amanda Miller Garber
Wow.
13:18.51
forestandtrees
And we'd have to not expect it to be as cheap as it is and you know that's that's just not the world. We've created for ourselves and ah Jeremy what what you were saying or reminded me of like when when people are like what about what about what about that's also just speaks to like the defensiveness and the creativity that people will go to.
13:24.10
Amanda Miller Garber
I have.
13:35.83
forestandtrees
Whenever they they feel like backed a corner say like well what if you were trappedpping the desert island and only you know you had to kill an animal to survive and's like yeah okay, that's fine if you're trapped on Desert Island go nuts do whatever you want. But if you live if you live in your house across street from the supermarket.
13:49.94
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, the message was.
13:50.80
Jeremy
But if you're not.
13:55.20
forestandtrees
Then Ah, then maybe you don't have to kill a wild boar right now. Ah all right? Well we better We better move on So we've talked about what's the deal with Christians you know, not not seem to care that much about the animals. Maybe maybe we can chalk that up to.
13:57.76
Amanda Miller Garber
Yes.
14:12.39
forestandtrees
Humans are fallen creatures basic human Selfishness you know, whatever that's fine something that also bothers me is that God doesn't seem to care that much for animal life both in the biblical narrative and just in in the real world that we find ourselves in so Side'd say that ah you know something we talked a lot about. Ah.
14:14.97
Amanda Miller Garber
But.
14:32.27
forestandtrees
Last season when we covered the book of hebrews was what's to deal with animal sacrifice. Why does god require animal sacrifice that never made sense to me. It makes even less sense when you study the old testament narrative and then some of the later prophets are saying like god never even required animal sacrifice and so it's like okay so god just like allowed this to go on. For generations and just didn't feel the need to speak up and say hey you don't actually don't need to kill all these animals needlessly I think of the story of Jesus when he casts out the demons and puts them into the pigs and has them run into the river surely Jesus could have found ah a more creative way to spare the pigs lives and still. Cast the demons out of that guy and of course you have ah the the ultimate Trump Card is like the in the book of acts when god commands Peter to eat pork and says like you know this? This is what I want you to do to be a good christian is you have to start eating these animal products and in the real world. We have the problem of. Wild animal suffering you know animals ah are just not cared for in factory farms in in our industrialized society but out just out in nature. Um animals are the victims of predation and parasites and disease that. Forest fires in Australia god doesn't seem all that concerned about the plight of animal suffering in the world either. So what do you guys? think about that.
16:01.94
Amanda Miller Garber
Oh that was a lot. Um, so I'll say a couple of things and then Jeremy jump in please? Um, so I think it's important to note again, we've sort of come full circle here on the interconnectedness. With food and culture and food and cultural practices. Um, so I'm not sure that I read the story and acts of the sheet coming down right? The obviously of it like god's picnic blanket or whatever. Um.
16:29.84
forestandtrees
A.
16:35.92
Amanda Miller Garber
I don't entirely read that as god saying hey I want you to eat meat in part. What I see there is god saying hey I want you to see I want you to taste and see if you will my radically inclusive love and I want to um. I want you Peter to see past these arbitrary walls that you've been taught. Um, you should observe your whole life. But I'm I'm going to turn your world upside down here and say actually no so. Short summation I read that as god saying hey the people who you thought were unclean who were filthy the the people who you thought you could not be in relationship with actually yes, and furthermore I want you to eat with them. That's that's.
17:27.42
forestandtrees
A.
17:31.38
Amanda Miller Garber
Where I read that I also understand how you could see that as god saying hey have a pork chop but to me that piece is much more about relationship. Um, so anyway Jeremy what do you think? that's my initial two cents but there was a lot in that question.
17:35.90
forestandtrees
And.
17:47.40
forestandtrees
Yeah I should say just apologies for bringing up so many examples you don't need to respond to all of them.
17:47.58
Jeremy
I.
17:54.22
Jeremy
Yeah, welcome to my world Amanda I get this every week. Ah, it's yeah I love your your take on on Peter and ax and I I would totally agree I think that's more about inclusive to people than it is about what what Peter should eat.
17:58.97
Amanda Miller Garber
It's all good stuff. It's all good stuff. So.
18:11.79
Jeremy
In the moment. But Jeff I do think this is a great question I think this is a tough question that deserves a a good answer. So I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you my best take at it and I'm gonna lose you at 1 point in this answer I'm already and anticipating it. Okay I'll tell you when I'm gonna lose you.
18:12.12
Amanda Miller Garber
Um.
18:26.87
forestandtrees
Okay.
18:29.20
Jeremy
So I want to begin with a few assumptions I make in answering this that I can I can acknowledge. Okay, these are assumptions that an atheist could look at and go well, you're assuming XY and z and I would say yes I am assuming it. We don't have time to go into why I'm assuming it those are other episodes. But for the sake of this answer I'm assuming number one god is good.
18:41.79
forestandtrees
A.
18:47.42
Jeremy
Okay, so that's that's my starting point I have I have the view that god is good number 2 I have the view that suffering matters to god. Okay, so both of those we could unpack those separately for the sake of time I'm just gonna name those as assumptions I'm making therefore I would say god cannot be responsible for this suffering. And it is not an irrelevant issue to god. Okay, so this animal suffering you're bringing up matters to god and I don't believe god can be responsible for. So then you're going. Okay, well what what are you left with. So then I have to conclude based on that that this is the result of free will.
19:09.77
forestandtrees
And.
19:26.24
Jeremy
In creation and here's why I'm gonna lose you Jeff I'm gonna suggest specifically angels and demons Jeff doesn't go doesn't go with me on angels and demons. So Jeff you're gonna have to just humor me this next part but this is actually the early church fathers taught this idea.
19:37.96
forestandtrees
Okay.
19:43.88
Jeremy
And so this is not a new Jeremy's coming up with some slick answer if you go back into church history. You find this argument being made early on. There's a early church follow name. Ah I don't know how you to say his name Offendagorris I think is the best way to pronounce that maybe he he here's what he argues. He says the maker and framer of the world distributed and appointed a multitude of angels and ministers to occupy themselves about the elements and the heavens and the world and the things in it and the godly ordering of them all and just as with men. Who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice. So is it among the Angels some free agents you will observe such as they were created by god continued in those things for which god had made and over which he had ordained them but some. Outrage both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them so they had an assigned role in creation and offend of go is saying some of them decided I don't want to follow god I don't want to do this role anymore. I'm gonna I'm gonna take you know this domain I've been given and. Run it the way I want to run it so he then concludes the prince of matter exercises a control and management contrary to the good that is in god so the forces of evil I do think satan you know the embodiment of evil is ah is a real thing.
21:15.19
Jeremy
Is working contrary to what god has designed and god has intended and god allows that because we're we're in a place where you know Satan still has ah a domain of authority so I would say creation doesn't consistently show. Its expected beauty because it has been. And is being corrupted by demonic forces. So it past tense present tense which keeps rolling on in the future now I'll give you 1 passage that I think sets the framework for this type of thinking and again you you see this all the way back with the early church fatherers matthew 13 verses 24 through 30 Jesus tells the story. Says the kingdom of heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field but that night as the worker slept his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat then slipped away when the crop began to grow and produce grain the weeds also grew the farmers workers went to him and said sir the field. From where you planted the good seed is full of weeds where did they come from Jesus reply an enemy has done this. The farmer exclaimed should we pull out the weeds. They asked? no he replied you'll uproot the wheat if you do let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to store out the weeds tie them into bundles and burn them and to put the wheat in the barn. So I would say this story is is a framework that you can understand creation that god has planted good.
22:46.42
Jeremy
And there's an enemy that has come in and also had its effects and so now both grow together. So when we see both we can acknowledge. There is good and there is bad. But if god looks like Jesus I don't think Jesus is responsible for the suffering of animals I don't think that's god's intent god's design. I think that has to be chalked up to to free will and especially with angelic free will so Jeff did I completely lose you Amanda are you with me at all where where are we at.
23:16.11
forestandtrees
Ah, oh man, we're we're just opening so many doors here. So again again I apologize for asking so many so many questions. Um, first of all I want to say I love that that terminology for calling The devil is the prince of matter. It's kind of a beautiful um combination of like.
23:27.79
Jeremy
Yes, it's good.
23:33.60
forestandtrees
Science and theology I love that? Ah um, ok so let's let's drill down on one story here because you brought up angels and demons and I and yeah I know you're a fan of of Jesus Jeremy right Jesus is is a good guy in in your opinion.
23:36.11
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, yeah I would agree.
23:45.93
Jeremy
Yeah I am I Hope that's not a secret.
23:50.40
forestandtrees
And you and Jesus is god you said god's not responsible for animal suffering. What about Jesus casting the demons into the pigs. How how is that the best way to solve that particular problem like why I just cast the demons strained to hell or just somewhere else rather than making the pigs suffer.
24:04.65
Jeremy
I Don't know.
24:05.62
Amanda Miller Garber
So I think it is appropriate to remember that Jesus was an observant Jew and that pigs were filthy animals still are for many jews and so. There probably is metaphor there or there probably is some sort of reason as to why these forces of darkness were ah cast into animals that were labeled unclean. That's just a quick historical critical like that.
24:38.79
forestandtrees
And.
24:41.36
Amanda Miller Garber
That's probably a reason. Um I don't you know I I don't exactly know why I have enough humility to say I don't know if why exactly he chose the herd of Pigs. Um I've I've asked the same question. Ah, even before I was vegan like I've wondered why you know? ah.
25:00.52
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, the pit the pigs in the fig tree are the 2 stories of Jesus that just make me think like I guess Jesus was not an environmentalist. Ah yeah.
25:11.25
Amanda Miller Garber
I still can't explain the fig tree man it just it's just one of those scriptures where it just makes me laugh and I like this is just funny it. It is just so bizarre. But I guess my takeaway is even Jesus had a bad day sometimes and did it make a ton of sense.
25:15.49
Jeremy
It's weird.
25:18.97
forestandtrees
Maybe.
25:30.50
Amanda Miller Garber
And maybe he was angry. Maybe he'd had it up to his eyehos with with people I don't know I've certainly responded in ways like that myself still do. But yeah, that is a comical story that you know the deviled ham story if you will is just.
25:34.34
Jeremy
Ah.
25:35.97
forestandtrees
Um.
25:49.26
forestandtrees
Ms.
25:49.88
Amanda Miller Garber
Interesting and I think there is symbolism. There's There's some sort of like meaning probably in the fact that pigs were chosen. Um I find it interesting that Kosher laws um are as sort of strict and honestly sometimes arbitrary.
25:53.52
forestandtrees
In. Sure.
26:09.00
forestandtrees
Sure, Yeah, yeah.
26:09.48
Amanda Miller Garber
In my opinion that probably came but to to me, they're just interesting and don't always make a lot of sense. Um, but again the the strong interconnectedness between food and culture and faith cannot be underestimated. Um, as far as like angels and demons. That's interesting. Um, maybe not the language I would have chosen. But um I want to I Just really want to focus on the responsibility of humanity here. Um, and that's I Also Jeremy start with I'm going to start with God is good and I'm going to start with God Um grieves intensely when God Views our suffering and quite frankly, what we are doing to creation the God I believe in is just. Second by the choices we're making but I tend to um, really take a long hard look at human beings and our indescribable capacity for both good and wonder but also Evil and destruction.
27:24.68
Amanda Miller Garber
And so I mean I don't know maybe there are some 4 spiritual forces of wickedness that are at work here. Ah there are things I certainly cannot explain and I'm going to hold space to say the spiritual forces of wickedness are real. Um, but when I think about this I tend to think a lot more about what is it about the human capacity for harm and what did we do with that. Um, and our human capacity for selfishness. When I watch what we are doing to creation to animals to other human beings I am appalled but then I also feel as though there is a constant invitation to examine my own life and my own choices. And my own motivations as someone who claims to be a follower of Jesus and that's that's uncomfortable space to exist because I wish that I could consistently make ah faithful and ethical choices one hundred percent of the time but I know I know I don't. Um, and then I enter into this this spin if you will that can lead me to a place of despair if I'm not careful and so I'm constantly trying to live in the gray.
28:58.74
Amanda Miller Garber
Spaces in life and try to sort through these huge theological questions. But 1 thing to go back to the judgment question that helps me with not becoming you know Judgy Mcjudgerson is to look at myself first.
29:10.59
forestandtrees
A.
29:15.56
Amanda Miller Garber
And to examine some of my own choices and motivations as a follower of Jesus.
29:20.58
Jeremy
Yeah, that's that's good practice across the board Any anytime you feel judgy on anything just just take a look in the mirror.
29:25.68
forestandtrees
Um.
29:27.48
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, that's right exactly? Yeah and my apartment footprint is is way more than way bigger than I'd like for it to be.
29:28.44
forestandtrees
Yeah I.
29:38.30
forestandtrees
Totally yeah I I I got to say I'm more on Amanda's side here in terms of I feel much more comfortable blaming. Ah the world's problems on humanity than I do blaming it on angels and demons I just feel like that's more practicable in terms of how we can like. Find solutions to some of the problems we're creating for ourselves. But I mean no jeremy you're you right? is are nice. Yeah, it's it certainly doesn't it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
29:56.90
Jeremy
I Just don't think it solves part of your question. So I I agree it just doesn't solve like the animals in the wild and you know why is that the way it is well that's not humans. That's that's something bigger which is you know I would say the way God created it So That's why I think you. I agree with humans but I just suggest I think you have to go beyond it to do Justice to the question.
30:16.68
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, but that's true I appreciate it's it's an interesting theory I'll give you that Jeremy yeah.
30:23.66
Jeremy
That's all I'm here for Jeff is just interesting theories all right. We able to are we able to move on Jeff are you you feel like okay all right? So I want to I want to look at verse 17 and ask you guys both the response to this so Paul writes for the kingdom of god.
30:25.64
Amanda Miller Garber
Yeah, is.
30:28.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we better move on.
30:40.55
Jeremy
Is not a matter of what we eat or drink but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the holy spirit now I'm not a vegan but I would imagine your practice of veganism has become a significant part of both of your lives especially in a practical sense. Of living out your values. So what do you make of Paul saying that what we eat is not a matter of the kingdom of god when that is clearly a way that you guys are living out I would suspect at least Amanda you know the values of the kingdom.
31:12.97
forestandtrees
Yeah I can go first and just say because your question I think it is really interesting and it caused me to do a lot of introspection and think about like you know how how much of this do I want to make my identity how much time do I wanted toote to being outspoken about this and like you like what's What's the end goal here because I and it's from a secular perspective I kind of agree with what Paul's saying here and that like veganism is not like the be all end all like that's not that's not the end game in terms of how we make the world a better place by reducing suffering so similar with. Similarly with environmentalism like I started my journey of not eating meat more to reduce my environmental impact and then I started after I started practicing that I cared more about the animal suffering later on. But anyway all this stuff with reducing our carbon footprints and reducing animal suffering. You know, even if we could get all that down to 0 that's not actively making the world a better place. That's just trying to reduce the amount of harm we're doing to the world. You know like making the world. A better place is cultivating meaningful relationships and loving one another you know, like all you need is love like we talked about last time and making art making cool like new technologies like. Those those are like positive ways that we can make the world a better place and I just think we don't need to be like actively doing harm to animals in the environment and our own health while we're trying to achieve these other things.
32:48.43
Amanda Miller Garber
Yes, and I would say that reducing harm in any way is making the world a better place. Um, so all of it right? Everything you just named is ah making the world better I think um. John Wesley who is one of the founders of the modern methodist movements um talked a lot about you know, reducing harm harm reduction basically and trying to do good in whatever way, you can just do good and that's sort of in my Dna I guess. Um, but yeah back to Paul I mean I Paul and I have a complex relationship in many ways right? and you know for years. Oh we were not on good terms because someone who is female and clergy.
33:31.70
Jeremy
I don't think you're alone there. Amanda.
33:32.23
forestandtrees
Yes.
33:43.61
Amanda Miller Garber
Right? You can do the math. Um, although our relationship was really improved. Yeah, over the past few years and so I'm a lot more gracious to Paul in reading Paul now. Um I mean I don't like this is the kingdom of god.
33:46.98
forestandtrees
Um.
34:00.14
Amanda Miller Garber
Ah, in many ways I think the kingdom of god is is comes in very small ways I think Jesus was clear about that and so I look at ah and the kingdom of god is often described as a dinner party too. So. You know I'm going to say Paul I think I think I could argue with you here and say that what we choose to eat how we choose to interact with the created order it all is this part of the kingdom of god. Um, at least for me it is however I also want to be generous to Paul and I think what I hear him saying here is stop like you're missing the bigger picture people if you are fixating on what your neighbor has for a snack. And if you will not be in relationship with them because of your neighbors. You know, bedtime snack choices then you're missing the point and that is one of the most human things in the world I mean guilty right? Um you, you're.
35:05.26
forestandtrees
A.
35:09.99
Amanda Miller Garber
You're missing the forest for the trees and so you need ah what I did there? Um, and so um, yeah, and so I think I think what Paul is saying is please remember. There's a bigger picture here and that.
35:11.90
Jeremy
Oh Wow! Nice plug So good.
35:11.91
forestandtrees
Oh my God branding. Beautiful.
35:29.46
Amanda Miller Garber
You know, perfect is so often the enemy of the good I'm full of all the cliches here. But let's focus on the higher goals of of joy of meaningful relationship of mutual support of all the beautiful stuff. Um that I would claim. Church is supposed to be um, but I just would add a little caveat there that yes Paul but also let's not say this doesn't matter at all and I I can hold both um, ah, that's what I do.
35:49.46
Jeremy
Um.
35:51.26
forestandtrees
Um.
35:59.88
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:00.95
Jeremy
Wow given giving Paul the business a little bit I like it. Ah.
36:04.92
Amanda Miller Garber
Like I said you have a very interesting relationship but it gets better. Yeah.
36:07.90
forestandtrees
No I I love that I because I I do feel like this verse like well in a way I resonate with it and I think it's true I think it can also be so easily used as a cop out of like we get animal. Rights are not the most important thing in the world. It's like yeah I agree as say human human well-being is more important than animal. Well-being.
36:17.35
Amanda Miller Garber
And now.
36:26.95
forestandtrees
But that doesn't mean we get to just like ignore the lesser problematic things that we're doing to animals.
36:33.70
Amanda Miller Garber
Yep yeah I think a and I would just return to my statement about animal wellbeing and human wellbeing are so interconnected I mean.
36:45.69
Jeremy
Yeah.
36:48.54
forestandtrees
Um.
36:49.59
Amanda Miller Garber
Covid it many many scientists and people are saying that we are going to see more and more pandemics on the scale of Covid because of the ways we are not caring for creation. So this is.
37:02.60
forestandtrees
In.
37:05.30
Amanda Miller Garber
This is beyond just what we're eating. It is about our entire well-being if we cannot seriously consider our choices related to creation and animal habitats and and all that we're going to suffer and it's it. It's already happening. So yeah let's let's not just dismiss human behavior and like the choices we make let's not just say oh that doesn't matter because of what Paul says here about the greater. Good. Yes.
37:26.54
Jeremy
Ah.
37:40.58
Amanda Miller Garber
Yes, Paul I hear you let's let's focus on what matters most but that doesn't mean we shouldn't pay attention to the ways. The choices we're making the daily choices we're making.
37:50.34
Jeremy
Totally That's good.
37:54.33
forestandtrees
All right? Ah okay I think I think ah we just have 1 more question here if we can fully switch gears from the um animal ethics because romans fourteen has some other same things to say quick question which which day of the week do you guys think is holy let's fight about that.
38:13.53
Amanda Miller Garber
All over that. It's yeah.
38:13.93
forestandtrees
Just kidding. Okay so Romans that was the other thing that you know Paul talked about ah we disagree with but you know, no, you know, no one's fighting about that except I don't know seventh day adventist or something all right? So romans 1411 has a very iconic quote quoting Isaiah saying as surely as I live.
38:17.75
Jeremy
Um, yeah, yes.
38:33.62
forestandtrees
Says the lord every knee will bend to me every tongue will declare allegiance to god so this is a very ah often quoted idea of like you know one day. Everyone's going to bow down. Everyone's going to acknowledge like who's who's the big boss here who is in charge. And ah, you know from from a worship perspective if you think god is great and worthy of worship. This totally makes sense. You know, looking back on this this sentiment now. It seems a little bit dictatorial and it makes me think of how Jeremy often talks about human free will and Jeremy also often says that. God is not coercive so it made me wonder how can god make this prediction. How can he guarantee that every person at the end of time will bow down to him and worship him without being a coercive and without removing our free will. Question for both of you guys.
39:27.87
Jeremy
Manda you want to you want to take that or all right? So I think.
39:29.86
Amanda Miller Garber
Ah, but you go first you go first I am one who leans toward the free will end of the theological spectrum too. So we align there? Yeah, but go ahead.
39:41.70
Jeremy
So I think it it largely depends on your view of god how you interpret this first. So like you said Jeff if you have ah an idea that I don't want to worship god this isn't an appealing image to you. It does sound coercive. What I would say though is. The way I understand this is is almost like god just saying hey ah at the end of time all the illusions that you have chosen that you thought were gonna give you life were gonna are gonna fade away and eventually you're gonna see that all these things you're putting hope in. You're putting trust in you're putting value in. Ah, those things are going to go away and you're going to be left with just god and it'll be in your best interest and you will choose god and yeah and it will be of your free will because you'll realize oh I just I see it now in a way that I never saw it before so to me, it comes down to how do we view eternity and what's our theology. How are we making sense of that. Um, because I lean to the sense that Jesus will redeem all people I would say absolutely that Jesus is going to give everybody time to see that oh these other things that I thought were true are not true and we'll do it noncoercively. But and you know who knows how long that takes for each person. It could be a journey. Ah, you know for each person to come to their own awareness of who god is but I think it's you know I believe because I believe god is good that if you were fully to to choose what was in your best interest you would choose god now to any degree that we don't do that I think it's we have believed a lie.
41:09.49
Jeremy
There's a lot of reasons why we believe these lies but we have convinced ourselves. No this this will be better for me than god will and I think in eternity however god chooses to do this. Those will be stripped away. Those will be challenged and we'll be able to see oh that's not gonna That's not going to ultimately be what I thought and then I do think we will choose god so to me, it's not coercive and and east goes back to Jeff Conversation we've had the reason I was slow to get to the universal reconciliation was because it felt coercive to me and then it was David Bentley -hart's book that all shall be saved that helped me to realize no no. No your your full free will will choose god um, and it just will take time for you to see oh that is what I want but again, that's because of how I that's my starting point. So I understand to an atheist that that's almost a nonsensical answer. But I think it depends on what you believe about the end. And who you believe god to be and then you know we we connect those dots.
42:09.79
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, yeah I love the fact that you're beginning, um, your statements with like this is who I believe god is this is the god I believe in I think that's so important because I enter into so many conversations with people. I realize early on oh we are talking about 2 very different gods here. So yes, absolutely the god I believe in is not coercive I just like it's the only way I can try to have any sort of systematic theology um is. God is good and god um is not going to coerce us into being in relationship with with that god because that's not love that is not love I believe you cannot have authentic love without. Free will and so what I would say this is about is you know some so artistic literary license to a certain extent I think has to be considered but also I found myself asking the question as I was listening like worship. Literally means ascribing worth to and we worship many many things in our lives and um for whatever reasons I don't know god god just kind of lets that happen I would say free will um.
43:42.50
Amanda Miller Garber
And I want to believe that whether it is in this lifetime or you know at some point in eternity as Jeremy said, um, there will come a point when we. Come to recognize what is worth ascribing worth to um and how that is ultimately um I'll use the word salvation. Um that that is what wholeness. Really looks like is and a connectedness. Ah a holistic way of understanding what it means to be in relationship with our creator and I would say the creation. I do not believe that we can have live into the fullness of that relationship with god with our creator if we are not in right relationship with creation I just the older I get the more I believe it is all interconnected.
44:43.70
Jeremy
M.
44:51.11
Amanda Miller Garber
And so yeah I That was a little bit rambly but I I do believe it will be our choice and that you will choose to be in relationship with the source of life.
45:01.91
forestandtrees
Ah.
45:09.13
forestandtrees
No yeah, thank you though? Those beautifully spoken. Yeah I appreciate what both you guys said Ah Amanda kit can I ask just briefly do what's your view on eternity. Do you believe in eternal conscious torment like when it says at the end of time. Every knee will bow. Do you think that's going to mean. Some people are going to be in hell like realizing their mistake and but still acknowledging that god is good or are you a universal, a universalist like Jeremy or what do you believe about that.
45:30.60
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, no.
45:35.67
Amanda Miller Garber
Yeah, yeah, I'm very much a universalist. Um and I just name it and claim it kind of like my veganism now I had at a time. Yeah, you know earlier in life where like I didn't share that. Um, but yeah I am and.
45:49.60
forestandtrees
Yeah.
45:52.39
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, it's just that's that's who I believe God is and um I know I don't I I believe when I talk about Hell which is another fascinating conversation. It really is um I.
45:57.86
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
46:06.59
forestandtrees
A.
46:10.64
Amanda Miller Garber
I Often talk about the ways. So many of us are living in torment right here and right now and I personally understand the idea of hell as a separation from God a disconnection from the source of life and you know they and I think that's very real and it's. Deeply painful and it and is a space of intense intense suffering but do I believe that God wants that for us or would ever like choose that for us. No that is not the God I believe in.
46:30.41
forestandtrees
Yeah.
46:44.69
Amanda Miller Garber
Um I I try to be respectful of those with a different point of view as long as it does not become dehumanizing or harmful and it can very quickly but no, no, that's I yeah I would actually I would align with Jeremy on that. Absolutely.
46:53.96
forestandtrees
I mean.
47:01.40
forestandtrees
Yeah that's cool I appreciate that about you guys, you know you universalism, it's a little bit like veganism when I think about it now like it's it's almost too lovey Doy. It's too kind and empathetic and chill. And for some reason it's incredibly unpopular and people get very hostile towards even the notion of it. Um, ah.
47:24.80
Amanda Miller Garber
Um, yeah I'm fun I'm fun to have at dinner parties I'm just.
47:31.27
forestandtrees
What 1 more thing if if I can push back if we have time of like because as I've been thinking about universals I'm so much more ever since um, ever since doing this show with Jeremy because I didn't think that it was that much of a serious theological worldview you were allowed to have before before I start researching it to be honest, um. as as I think about it though it still seems like universalism is a form of coercion in a way right? because if it implies that you're going to be punished for a certain amount of time until you come around and realize god is good. You know, almost as if he's just trying to wear you down. You know it's either either you given surrender. Agree to start worshiping god or else. The the beatings will continue until moral improves does that make sense to to you guys or do I have a ah negative view. It's the refining process.
48:14.38
Jeremy
No I wouldn't yeah I wouldn't frame it in any of those terms that you're using I don't think god's punishing I think it's redemptive I think it's healing. Yeah, and I think it's it's for your good It's not There's no punitive nature in it. God's not mad. God's not getting back at you. It's god freeing you from things that you have convinced yourself are true and are hurting you and I think god is going to slowly lovingly remove those things from you or help you remove those things and so to me, it's not It's not coersive at all. It's not It's you know again, it could be painful and. Yeah cslewis has this image of I think the character's name is eustace and one of the chronicles nar of books who becomes this dragon and doesn't want to be a dragon anymore and so you know the way cs lewis portrays a scene is like you know Aslan has to rip the dragon scales off of him and it's like the most painful thing for him. And he thinks that as this the lion is trying to kill him like he literally thinks like oh this is this is my end and then he realizes no, he's not trying to kill me. He's pulling this this like you know dragon skin off me but he just keeps going and he keeps you know, refining him away and it's not a pleasant experience for you. So it's about the end it brings him back to life. And he becomes fully human again and so to me that's more the image of it may not be pleasant, but it's not because it's punitive. It's because whatever lies or things that we have you know created value are ultimately robbing us of the source of life and so the source of life has to come in and help us remove those things.
49:49.52
Jeremy
For our best interest and the same way I would say if someone wanted to run into a burning building because the thought of burning alive sounded awesome I wouldn't say well look at them just practicing their free will no I would say that's delusional like that's not that's not ah, we shouldn't celebrate the free will in that. That's someone who's not thinking clearly.
50:04.81
forestandtrees
Um.
50:09.52
Jeremy
Um, so I would say like it's not free will to choose against God for Eternity It's someone not thinking clearly and I think God's going to slowly and lovingly walk along that journey with you and help you see that ultimately God is a source of life.
50:09.77
Amanda Miller Garber
Um.
50:22.43
forestandtrees
Okay.
50:24.19
Amanda Miller Garber
I beautifully said yeah I also think um, when we think about worship I my understanding of worship just continues to evolve the older I get but I sometimes. Love to think of worship as just walking in a national park with my creator and you know we just were in Utah at Arches Canyon Lands Capitol Reef in March and it was the most worshipful. Experience I have had in ages and so I mean the idea of every knee will bow that that I can understand why people hear that as coercive but there was something about being in these spaces that. Literally took my breath away I could not comprehend what I was seeing that made me want to fall to my knees and so I think it is possible to have an experience of worship and wonder that. Causes us to fall to our knees either literally or metaphorically speaking that is not in any way coercive. Sadly, our human journey has led us to believe that the only way we would do that is through by coercive means I get that. But.
51:37.27
Jeremy
And.
51:48.17
forestandtrees
Um.
51:49.52
Amanda Miller Garber
The older I get the more I understand Um, ah I read this with a different lens at least.
51:55.00
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, no, that's good I I appreciate guys sharing that. That's ah yeah, food food for thought I don't know it's it's interesting to think about um this idea of like god actually is a lot better than um, he like. Seems to be in terms of like the biblical narrative or just the way the world is you know like this is like the christian worldview I used to have was like once you see god in his full form. He is truly the greatest thing ever. You know which is obviously the question of like why doesn't he just reveal himself in all his glory now. Um, but. Yeah, that's that's fine. We don't to get into that I really appreciate you coming on being our token christian vegan Amanda thank you again so much for for being here. Yeah yeah, I love everything you had to say was there anything else you wanted to plug or anything about.
52:44.35
Amanda Miller Garber
Anytime I'll add it to my resume. Yeah now. Alright, this was fun.
52:54.18
forestandtrees
Romans 14 or or anything we talked about you wanted to to bring up before we close out.
52:59.97
Amanda Miller Garber
Ah I want to say something like I'll be having my christian vegan conference. But on name I'm just kidding I did go tri I did go truly this it twenty what was it 2013 or fourteen I went to.
53:07.31
Jeremy
Ah, all 7 of you.
53:17.26
Amanda Miller Garber
Ah, gathering of forksover knives people I don't know if you're it's put in vegan culture. There's a group called forksover knives rip eselstein and so we went to this in Austin and I have this memory of standing up and we were all chanting k. So yeah.
53:37.31
forestandtrees
Wow Wow This is but this is the future liberals. Want.
53:41.90
Jeremy
Ah, the true vegan mantra. Oh man, that's all that's quite the image.
53:42.97
Amanda Miller Garber
Ah, it's so weird like it but lookss exactly so like it was its own form of worship I guess I don't know we were describing a lot of worth to kale. But um, anyway, all right I got a run this has been.
53:52.86
forestandtrees
Oh.
54:01.52
Amanda Miller Garber
Ah, lot of fun and I will go listen to the podcast cause suddenly you're what else you think.
54:02.71
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, you don't you don't have to listen if you don't want I'm I'm sure you got the gist of what we're about just fixed on our hour we spent together.
54:09.90
Amanda Miller Garber
Well, the next time you want to explore a really obscure topic where I'm like the only person you can find you know you know reach me all right? You all take care all right.
54:17.47
Jeremy
Loving it? Yeah, thanks for doing this.
54:17.92
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, please please come back anytime. All right? Well yeah, they thanks so much for doing this ah and ah, yeah, thanks for listening everyone if if you're a christian non-vegan. Write in and tell us why and we'll we'll I'll forward all the emails directly to Amanda that'll be super fun. All right? Thanks for listening. Thanks again to Amanda and we appreciate you see you later.