Romans 13 - For Love & Country

What is Love? Jef doesn’t seem to know but Paul is pretty confident you should shut up and pay your taxes. Also Jeremy has finally seen Pig and he loved it! Jer and Jef also get into end times stuff, human extinction, and the end of the world.

Topics
Pig is a great movie!
Does God choose the politicians?
Is Christian love any different from regular love?
What is love?
Is Jesus coming back or what?
Global population and human extinction

Recommended Reading
Pig
Jeremy’s Blogpost on Pig
Disarming Scripture by Derek Flood
Better Never to Have Been by David Benatar

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Transcript

00:00.00
Jeremy
And we're back with chapter 13 in romans such a dicey chapter quoted for all sorts of purposes and today we're gonna do our best to set the record straight I'm Jeremy joined as always by my friend. Jeff.

00:15.43
forestandtrees
I Don't know who needs to hear this but shut up and pay your taxes. Ah, ah I don't I Just the culture you know, cultural Zeitgeist Romans Thirteen it's It's not a quote from something.

00:24.20
Jeremy
What's up from.

00:29.93
Jeremy
Oh just okay, just ah I Why just assumed you know it's some archive movie that you know only the cool people had seen.

00:37.55
forestandtrees
Totally totally? Yeah, no, it's It's just interesting. You know there's There's so many people out there who are you know complaining about you know, death and taxes. You know like how looking for creative ways to avoid paying the piper but you know just read Romans thirteen just.

00:45.27
Jeremy
And.

00:54.80
forestandtrees
Not supposed to complain about that stuff just supposed to do it.

00:58.47
Jeremy
Romans thirteen is an interesting chapter. We're gonna get into this today but before we do we have more pressing matters at hand Jeff I have finally watched the movie pig I didn't want to be shamed by you for another week in a row.

01:07.40
forestandtrees
I Know congratulations I'm so happy.

01:15.62
Jeremy
In front of our listeners and and those who watch so I decided to go watch it and I will just say it's the setup or the parallels to John Wick are borderline comical at the beginning where like right out of the gate. You know you get the.

01:30.37
forestandtrees
Um, uncanny.

01:33.77
Jeremy
Like ah something happened to his wife and they have this guy then it's just him and the pig I mean like the setup to John Wick one and pig are are very funny and almost why I thought like this is a joke like this is not a real thing.

01:40.24
forestandtrees
Ah.

01:46.73
forestandtrees
Right? It's it's got to be intentional I would think yeah I didn't really look at the because pig came out just a couple years ago so I mean there would have been enough time for to be for them to write and direct this as a reaction to John Wick certainly an influence I would think yeah.

02:00.37
Jeremy
For sure for sure. So I'll I'll just say this is me being honest, the title did nothing to entice me not a nicholas cage fan and then you know it starts off and I'm just like what has Jeff got me into I was a little confused.

02:10.87
forestandtrees
Me.

02:19.29
Jeremy
Um, but I I gotta say it it won me over in spades and was truly a beautiful story and I don't want to spoil it because I I suspect most people listening or watching this have not seen it cause it's.

02:23.60
forestandtrees
Wow.

02:37.97
Jeremy
It's not a much to your chagrin. It's not a well-known piece right? Ah so I don't want to spoil any anything major but I'm just gonna say I heartily endorse this in fact I told my 14 year old of my wife I'm like hey I want to rewatch this with you guys I think it'd be good.

02:38.99
forestandtrees
Yeah, not not like a mainstream movie.

02:57.83
Jeremy
And I've thought about the movie quite a few times since I watched the last week and that to me is the sign of a good movie when you know or a good book or anything when you're finished with it and yet something in it lingers on and you can't you know you can't move beyond it because you keep revisiting it. So thanks, thanks for the recommendation.

03:16.87
forestandtrees
Hey thank you for watching it? Yeah I'm I'm so pleased. So happy that you liked it I was afraid that you would think it was like boring or pretentious or too obtuse or something like that. But I appreciate your enthusiasm and appreciation for.

03:16.98
Jeremy
I dig I dig it.

03:35.38
forestandtrees
Fine Cinema jeremy.

03:37.46
Jeremy
Is that what this is is fine. So you you can tell that this thing is made on a shoestring budget and there I mean there's not like it's the anti- John Wi on almost every sense. This is not a blockbuster that there's not a ton of actors. There's not car chases I mean it's just not.

03:54.82
forestandtrees
Um.

03:56.00
Jeremy
It's not that but the story itself is so good and so beautiful and ah, just so much of like I think like they captured what the human condition is and how we deal with loss and how we deal with pain and.

04:15.90
Jeremy
I'm going to say it this was this was maybe 1 of cage's better roles. This was this was good stuff.

04:20.41
forestandtrees
Oh totally? Yeah I mean nicholas cage is is a fascinating human being for sure and yeah I'll admit he's turned in plenty of he've phoned in plenty of performances. He's turned in plenty of like incredibly amazingly beautifully bad performances. But. He's he's a good actor when he wants to be in my opinion and pig. yeah yeah pig is ah is a movie that he hears about I remember the because there was the recent nicholas cage movie the unbearable weight of massive talent and so he which is like this meta movie where Nicholas Cage plays himself.

04:42.12
Jeremy
I agree and I think he he wanted to be in this movie. Um.

04:57.51
forestandtrees
And I believe in one of the interviews with that where he was kind of doing a retrospective on his career and he was asked to name like what are the roles. He's most proud of I believe pig was like in his top 3 which was surprising considering he's he's been a working actor for decades now and pig is ah a relatively recent.

05:13.95
Jeremy
Well Andy's been in you know, blockbuster movies. So.

05:14.97
forestandtrees
Film. So yeah, he he didn't say national treasure to somehow but but Pig made the cut.

05:25.62
Jeremy
You know what's interesting about the movie that you you don't like him or at least I didn't at the beginning of the movie I was not immediately drawn to him as a character and that's where I was kind of like this is gonna be a long movie. You know, like just like like oh gosh and then it's almost ah just intentionally.

05:34.19
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

05:43.56
Jeremy
Slowly strategically opens you up to like him more and more and more and by the time the movie ends you have this like really Ali's I did this a really deep connection and it reminds me a little bit of the way they did storytelling in breaking bad where it was so subtle.

06:01.20
forestandtrees
Ah.

06:01.87
Jeremy
The the shift of the character that you almost didn't notice it and then you know if you like watch episode one and then watch the finale. You're like this is a totally different person and it's because of how they slowly built that I felt like they did that same concept in this movie and it was It was just good I Just I I'm.

06:09.18
forestandtrees
Yeah.

06:17.68
forestandtrees
But sort of sort of the opposite of breaking bad you mean where like at the beginning of breaking bad Walt is a nice sympathetic character and by the end he's completely unreeemable.

06:20.93
Jeremy
Blown away.

06:28.90
Jeremy
I Just mean the idea of they're gonna slowly change something and they're gonna do it strategically but slowly enough where you don't necessarily notice it happening until the end and you realize oh I feel totally different than I did at the beginning. That's what I mean like.

06:40.60
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

06:45.20
Jeremy
But the end of the movie I'm like I'm really drawn to this guy when did that happen. You know it like there's not like 1 scene all of a sudden you're like oh I like him. It's like they just slowly draw you into this guy. Yeah, they're not that he's changing character as much as like breaking bad but just this meticulous we're gonna draw you in. Yeah, thats so good.

06:53.50
forestandtrees
Ah.

06:59.14
forestandtrees
Um, as you learn more about him. Wow there it is.

07:03.79
Jeremy
There It is everybody I think we need to like get a poll out there get our people to watch it and see see who resonates with it is is it just you and I or is it is it all of the forest and trees community I don't know.

07:08.62
forestandtrees
Yeah ar rousing recommendation on both of us. Yeah, yeah, any anyone you've listened to us rant and rave about this movie that that no one's even heard of for for 5 minutes now and you're curious. Do check it out. Ah you can let like I told Jeremy you can stream it on canopy at least through the Phoenix Public Library system I don't know how you watched it Jeremy okay, yeah, it's.

07:37.38
Jeremy
I ended up doing on Amazon prime oh the other thing you didn't even mention and you would have sold me on this so much faster. So just heads up it all takes place in Portland or like the or yeah, the Portland you know area which is like my favorite place. You know.

07:47.69
forestandtrees
Um, oh yeah, that's true. Yeah.

07:56.66
Jeremy
I love I love that I was actually in Oregon when I this last week when I downloaded it and I was going to watch on the plane and then I ended up not doing that and I watched it I got home. But yeah, so it's already like in my favorite play I mean it's like the movie just kept getting better and better as I got into it. So.

08:04.57
forestandtrees
Oh yeah.

08:10.85
forestandtrees
Did you visit one of those gastronomy type restaurants while you were in Portland.

08:16.23
Jeremy
Um, so I actually read a little bit about it like like the underground tunnels and stuff he goes in. It's super cool. Yeah I mean there's a lot of port and that's very much like that and and like the opening scenes you know when he's out in the woods. It's just gorgeous like that's that's like my favorite.

08:22.60
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

08:34.68
Jeremy
Landscaping Oregon it's just so pretty. So there you go everybody there you go although based on the last poll you did I think it was the last poll they may not love it like we did because I think you you asked that poll of you know? is there ever a reason to use violence.

08:35.58
forestandtrees
And yeah there you go watch pig.

08:48.73
forestandtrees
Oh is violence ever ever justified. Yeah I think it was it was like sixty five thirty five something like that 65 like pro violence. Not again that bad side. Yeah yeah.

08:52.66
Jeremy
Yeah.

08:56.79
Jeremy
I thought I thought your follow was funny of you know, remind me never to get on 65% of our listeners bad side. So maybe that 65% or more John Wick fans I don't know.

09:09.80
forestandtrees
Totally totally let's yeah yeah I mean I I would love to talk about Pig for an hour but I mean I don't want to get into spoilers you know? So maybe maybe another time.

09:12.58
Jeremy
All right? should we talk about romans.

09:20.40
Jeremy
Okay, fair enough fair enough all right Let's talk romans thirteen today we are going to explore god's role with earthly governments. The nature of love. So be very philosophical. And we're gonna try to figure out whether god is actually coming back soon or not and why it matters or maybe it doesn't matter. We'll find out before we get into Jeff's questions I'd like to set the tone romans 13 verse fourteen love the imagery paul uses here. Says clothe yourself with the presence of the lord Jesus Christ I just love the idea of like wrap Jesus around you like a shawl and that's your outfit for the day and you know Jeff you're you're a fan of the the one outfit look. That's your that's your shtick and you know.

10:13.35
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

10:15.54
Jeremy
Maybe maybe you could just clothe yourself with Jesus and every day just put Jesus on something to consider.

10:23.40
forestandtrees
Yeah I should ah wash my my dirty brown t-shirts and make them sparkling white right.

10:28.79
Jeremy
Well who who knows what Jesus would do to your your bordrube but I don't know I like the image clothe yourself with the presence. The presence of Jesus so it's not just like the idea of Jesus but like the real person which is obviously very much how I try to live out my faith. Not just this jesus that I read about but the Jesus that I experience as well. So I think that's pretty cool.

10:50.11
forestandtrees
Yeah, cool, cool image clothes make the man I can dig it. Ah all right? Well you ready to to get into the chapter then Jeremy let's do it all right? So this is ah as I alluded to right at the start of this episode this is.

10:53.31
Jeremy
There you go.

11:01.50
Jeremy
Let's do it I'm ready.

11:09.29
forestandtrees
The real ah respect for governing authority chapter of romans so right? from the beginning in verse one. It says everyone was so must submit to governing authorities for all authority comes from god and those in positions of authority have been placed there by god. So as I was like reading this chapter and especially this this statement right here this this is a pretty extraordinary statement in my view. The the claim that every single person in a governing authority has been placed there specifically by god and I wonder does does anyone really take this seriously. I thought a lot about some of our political offices in the world that are like officially sanctioned by god like the pope the king of england the Dalai Lama things like that I feel like most people even who are admirers who are non-critics of these. Political leaders. They don't like actually literally believe god put them there but Paul is basically basically claiming that every single politician from the king of Saudi Arabia to your local sheriff is placed there for a reason. It's not about like. Government corruption or nepotism or being born into money or anything like that. They're placed there for the right reason which which the more I think about it the more absurd it seems but and it also implies that god is responsible for the political dysfunction and gridlock that.

12:39.69
forestandtrees
We have in our world today. So that's my question for you? Jeremy why doesn't god do a better job of selecting our political leaders.

12:46.81
Jeremy
Did you say you don't think the Pope thinks that he was picked by god.

12:51.42
forestandtrees
I Well do I think the Pope personally does or do I think like most catholics believe that or what do you mean? What's the question.

12:58.76
Jeremy
I Don't know I think I just try I thought I heard you say? yeah, but you know the Pope knows he wasn't picked by god.

13:03.78
forestandtrees
Yeah, well, that's obviously there's no way to know. But I guess that's kind of a pet theory I have that like you know the Pope is a is a serious person and in his private moments sitting on his golden throne. He probably realizes that. Yeah, this is just a human institution that I'm just playing along with like.

13:21.67
Jeremy
Wow Hot take hot take on the Pope woo.

13:23.77
forestandtrees
I wasn't actually divinely and appointed do you but do you believe he he buys his own BS as they say.

13:33.55
Jeremy
Ah, well this Pope intrigues I think we've talked a little about him this Pope intrigues me more than some of the previous popes because it doesn't he doesn't seem as enamored with the office of of the ah the role of the pope as as others have been um.

13:34.72
forestandtrees
And.

13:42.67
forestandtrees
Sure.

13:49.38
Jeremy
But I I and again I don't know I would suspect he would say that he was picked by god um, just an interesting idea of like does the does the pope in his in his heart. Not believe that all right? yeah which would make it hard to be Pope I think I mean maybe a lot of them throughout history. There's some obviously bad popes. But.

13:58.51
forestandtrees
Does he even believe it? Yeah yeah.

14:08.74
Jeremy
Anyways, that's not really your question just I thought I thought I had to explore that for a second. Ah yeah, that's a great question based on just an initial service level reading of that verse which I would say yeah is inherently problematic if you just read that verse that face value and go I'm just gonna take it as it is. Yeah, what god you? You're not good at this like you you don't do a very good job picking the leaders and now do you just god you know, share some responsibility for how it goes wrong I'm gonna go out on a lamb and I don't use this argument a lot I think there are times when you do want to use it I'm gonna say this is not a great translation. Of this verse or the idea Paul was saying and so I was like I really don't think that's what Paul's trying to argue here so I was doing a little research into other translations. My guy David Bentley Hart I think nailed it with his translation of this verse which I think is actually the point Paul is trying to make which you'll notice.

14:49.72
forestandtrees
Um.

15:05.60
Jeremy
Is very similar but is a different emphasis that makes a huge difference. So the way David Bentley Hart translates romans 131 he says let every soul be subordinate to higher authorities for there is no authority except under god and such as exist. Are subordinated to god so heart is basically making this translation of Paul's argument is not god hand picked him as if god likes that one and doesn't you know doesn't like the other one but that god ultimately has all authority. So any earthly authority is only because god has allowed it to exist or you could say extended. You know some of the authority god has to allow earthly leaders to have some type of authority which I think is much more the point Paul is making like it's a focus on god not on these leaders saying.

15:57.28
forestandtrees
Um.

16:00.22
Jeremy
The only reason you have earthly leaders is because god has allowed people to have earthly authority god has all authority and if god didn't allow anyone. There would be no other earthly authorities. You know if god is is the person that you know I think Paul believes him to be god has all authority. So that's I think the argument. So basically. Earthly authorities only have authority because god has authority and god has allowed them to have some I think is the point Paul is trying to make so I would say it's more accurate to say god uses the leaders in power to god's own ends rather than god handpicks the leaders. He really likes. For whatever reason and I would connect this back to a verse. We talked about last week in chapter 12 in Romans 1219 we read this dear friends never take revenge leave that to the righteous anger of god for the scriptures say I will take revenge I will pay them back says the Lord now we find this.

16:41.31
forestandtrees
Um.

16:58.25
Jeremy
This kind of theme throughout even the new testament that god does use earthly governments for god's ultimate purposes without them necessarily following god and I think this is the point god Ere Paul is making about god god has ultimate authority god will use the governing authorities. However, god wants to use them. To ultimately bring about the the ends that god has and so I think all this you gotta keep in mind of the way in which Paul is talking about Rome which was a very significant reality to anyone living in the time of Paul. Ah. You know rome rome was everything to them the the way that rome did it and so I want to read a quote that I think put so much of this whole thing in context this is I think one of the most helpful quotes on romans 13 this comes from a guy named Derek Flood there's a book called disarming scripture. Which I recommend great book but he specifically addresses the context in which Paul is writing romans thirteen in light of of Rome and all of this and so this is a little bit long. My my dear listeners. But I think this is this is worth. Sitting on and understanding the the argument that that Derek floods making so here's what he says romans 131 through 7 must be understood in the context of the volatile relationship that the jews as well as the early church had under the oppressive rule of Rome. So.

18:30.69
Jeremy
Derek saying read romans thirteen with you know this eye to how they lived under Rome remember he says that Paul himself was charged with crimes by the state beaten multiple times jailed and eventually executed by Rome guy. It's history. So to see Paul as a cheerleader for the goodness of the Roman Imperial state under Nero is to miss the volatile and hostile historical reality of Paul's situation at the time we thus see in romans 12 through 13 a snapshot. Paul's attempt to navigate the church in rome through a volatile and dangerous relationship with a violent regime modeling the way of enemy love rather than the way of retaliation which is all that we talked about in romans twelve last week says taking romans 12 and 13 together Paul's counsel to the church in Rome is do not be conformed to the pattern of this world Romans 122 but do not commit an act of open insurrection that will result in bringing down the crushing arm of the roman state either. In other words Paul is telling the church in Rome. To resist via the means of overcoming evil with good not through the means of retaliation and insurrection a way he knows will lead to mass bloodshed. So this is really what he's arguing and I agree with this.

20:04.20
Jeremy
This is Paul's instruction to the church to live countercultural without saying oh we're going to defy rome let's go take arms against Rome which would get them all slaughtered and is not the way of Jesus and he's saying no no I'm teaching you how to do this how to stand up to rome by. Acknowledging the only authority they have is the authority god has allowed them to have which then puts everything like you can take a deep breath like god is ultimately the one to control so relax when you see god allowing something to happen and this is I think a way of Paul navigating the church through. A government that's going to kill him I mean again, you you read this in context like we know that Paul was executed by Rome so you have to keep that in mind throughout romans especially romans 13 when he's talking about the authority and to me that is that is way more of a oh that makes sense explanation. Then Paul as you know cheerleader of Rome.

21:02.37
forestandtrees
Yeah, that that makes sense to me I mean especially like the the first thing you said about it when you were talking I was kind of picturing like the org chart right? like god is just like it like in charge by default. So like it doesn't really matter who the middle managers are.

21:17.65
Jeremy
Correct.

21:20.19
forestandtrees
Like and like how competent or incompetent they are like God is still like in charge. Yeah, right? Whether or not whether or not his subordinates are like actually doing anything productive for him or not so that's that's it that makes more sense to me and of course yeah, another thing was like it.

21:22.61
Jeremy
All lines all lines point up to God yeah.

21:37.67
forestandtrees
What Paul's saying here at service level doesn't really make sense with free will right? like if if free will exists then it wouldn't make sense for god to be interfering with all our elections. Um, yeah I guess that that's another thing is that that Paul is is shockingly ah.

21:45.00
Jeremy
Right.

21:54.93
forestandtrees
I don't know like um subordinate I guess is the word right to governing authorities which like as as you rightly point out like ancient rome was probably a much harsher government than than anything that we're dealing with right now in in America however much we might. Disagree with whatever the government is up to I don't know I'm kind of surprised or not surprised it. It seems strange to me that he he seems to like not even before like peaceful protests. You know, like last week we were talking about um Gandhi a little bit with nonviolence I feel like. Gandhi's method of nonviolent resistance like nonviolent non-coopation. It seems like Paul Paul and according to romans 13 wouldn't even necessarily support that for a corrupt to protest a corrupt government. He would say that you should just keep your head down and and be a good citizen.

22:49.54
Jeremy
Well I think according to you know floods quote that I read. He's basically trying to keep the church from getting annihilated you know by Rome which you gotta remember that that was the roman way. It's like anybody rides us up. You just kill them all.

22:49.69
forestandtrees
No matter What basically.

22:55.69
forestandtrees
Ah.

23:02.89
forestandtrees
Sure right.

23:08.62
Jeremy
You put them on you know, crosses you line a major road with them and you leave the bodies up as a warning to anyone that defides rome so we think today of like oh yeah, stand up against America. Well great. You can go protest anything I mean you could protest you know against Biden if you wanted you could.

23:15.80
forestandtrees
E.

23:27.95
Jeremy
Protestt against Trump if you wanted and you're probably not going to lose your life on on either end of that right? you you you have the freedom. So we we think of it like that that was not was not this culture. So Paul's literally I think trying to keep the church alive saying no like don't don't go and and I you know shockingly.

23:29.80
forestandtrees
Sure.

23:46.77
Jeremy
Both Paul and especially Jesus had like little to no interest in reforming Rome like that just wasn't a focus to them. You know americans who are Christian have a deep desire. We got to bring this country back or get it on track.

23:52.98
forestandtrees
Um.

24:03.46
Jeremy
Just not something you find in the early church. They weren't super concerned about we got to make rome reformed and get all the you know, get it right that they were more focused on being the church. That's I think what Paul's inviting them to be is like look let the authority that they have be the authority they have you were called. To follow Jesus and do it in this radical way and you know he's inviting them to focus on that knowing he himself is going to get killed by this government and so are a lot of them.

24:34.14
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, it. It also seems to sort of contradict or or just be different to like the story of Jesus and the story of like a lot of the apostles of the early church and and Paul himself in terms of because they were killed by the state. But like in enrollments 13 paul seems to be more measured and pragmatic here by saying that. Yeah don't you know don't be outspoken against the government. Um, if they even if you disagree with with whatever they're preaching I don't know i.

25:04.62
Jeremy
Well you you do wonder he's writing to the church in Rome so you do wonder if he he has a slightly different message to them. You know because of location of like hey guys like you you really are not going to get away with this. You're you know.

25:11.21
forestandtrees
Right. Yeah, versus.

25:23.20
Jeremy
You're in the hot spot here.

25:24.89
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I Guess it just kind of goes against like ah the idea of like martyrdom like is should all Christians be be martyred like the the stories of the early apostles and everything or is it better to kind of play the long game and just. Play along and and pay your taxes and stuff and put up with even when the government like institutes fear and like that's that that by extension is is God instituting fear in its citizens that was another um idea in this first section that kind of bothered me a little bit of it seems like. Totally makes sense to me that yeah the the government in general is going to be corrupt and use fear tactics but isn't God supposed to be more of the the loving type. Yeah, all right? well.

26:08.30
Jeremy
Yeah I don't know.

26:14.56
forestandtrees
Speaking of love. Let's let's transition onto the next verse here. Yeah yeah, silky smooth all right? So verse 10 says love does no wrong to others so fulfill. So love fulfills the requirements of god's law. So this whole section is is.

26:15.35
Jeremy
You you and your transitions. So good.

26:33.90
forestandtrees
Ah, kind of mirroring what Jesus talks about um in the gospels when he talks about like the the 2 greatest commandments of you know all all the law all the old testament. You can just sum it up with um, love god and love your neighbor and then Paul here in in romans thirteen specifically is saying that.

26:46.76
Jeremy
Oh.

26:53.40
forestandtrees
It's all summed up by just loving your neighbor which is kind of interesting because I remember we talked about that before of like yeah I totally agree with that idea of like we should all love each other. We should all get along and Paul is skipping the god part which is kind of the more controversial aspect is like not everyone agrees on whether or not there. There's a god out there. To love or not anyway. Um, it's it's interesting because I mean I like this message this is the message that resonates with me I remember like reading the new testament in my early 20 s and just. Having this kind of profound epiphany of like oh it's all about love? you know it's like it's that's the message of christianity. That's what's so great about christianity is you brush all the rules away and we just care for one another and I would say that as I've explored more world philosophies. I no longer think that this is completely unique to christianity I think there's a lot of people who've kind of come to this epiphany and of course it's totally like Hippie dippy and cliche and naive. But but it is still profound I would argue this idea that all you need is love and. People like the Beatles and Oprah and I think of Elon Musk when he was smoking a Jay on the Joe Rogan experience he said it seems cliche but love is the answer. You know like so I guess that makes me wonder like what sets the Christian version of we stal. Just love one another apart.

28:23.82
forestandtrees
From the kind of Mainstream world. Ah version of love. So that's my question. What's so special about the Christian flavor of love.

28:35.51
Jeremy
I Love this question. That's ah, that's a really good question and I agree with you. It's not the the love and of itself is not what makes your Shandy unique and you can find it all over the place I think the challenge in answering the question is how are we defining love because even if we agree. You know Elon Love is the answer. Great. What do we mean by that like what do we mean by? Love. Um, you know for Christians I Think the answer is God like God is love and love must therefore be constructed out of a framework of God and then I would even go further than that and say.

29:00.00
forestandtrees
Um.

29:12.65
Jeremy
Should be a Jesus -looking god if you're going to follow Jesus because that's who the new testament writers point to right? That's what god looks like so okay if I want to develop a christian ethic of love I'm going to base it on the person of jesus and to me one of the best passages to do this with would be first john 4 ah, verses 7 through 13 where you know he lays it out of like what does this look like he says dear friends let us continue to love one another for love comes from god anyone who loves is a child of god and knows god but anyone who does not love does not know god for god is love. God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him. This is real love not that we loved god but that he loved us and send his son as a sacrifice to take away our sense dear friends since god loved us that much. We surely ought to love. Each other no one has ever seen god but if we love each other god lives in us and his love is brought to full expression in us just a radical sentence there and god has given us his spirit as proof that we live in him. And he in us. So john is is making verses 12 and 13 are are like hugely profound I think we just skip over notice what he says no one has ever seen god like any jew in the old testament may be like ah hold on we have stories right.

30:46.66
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

30:48.46
Jeremy
Like moses saw god you know they would like Abraham talk to god like they would be quick to be like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa they you know what about the Bernie Bush what about the pillar of fire and this in the cloud of smoke like what about all these things right? He goes no no, no one has seen god but these says this but if we love each other god lives in us.

30:58.80
forestandtrees
Yeah.

31:06.91
Jeremy
And it is through our love that he is brought to full expression this love of god is brought to full expression in us like we manifest the person of Jesus when we love each other the way god has loved us which is a radical thought that that John is trying to say and then he says. And god has given us his spirit as proof so he connects the holy spirit to this and and so to me the christian answer or the christian flavor of loved use. Your phrase is based on the person of Jesus it is modeling who Jesus is who not only we've seen Jesus to be who we experience Jesus to be. Today and and then bringing that to full expression in the way that I treat others and you know this is the you know it's not the golden rules the platinum rule it says as as I have loved you go and love one another. What Jesus says so we are to love as Jesus has loved us which is beyond just. Hey I'm gonna love you the way I wanna wanna be loved now I'm gonna love you the way god has loved me. That's my goal you know to to do that and that is an incredible way of love so to me that is the christian flavor which does have parallels right to other religions and other things. But I would say is uniquely Christian because they're not all going to keep pointing back to Jesus as the litmus test of does this look like Jesus they would they would you know point elsewhere probably and so to me the christian flavor of love is trying to bring you know the love of god into full expression as John says.

32:41.80
Jeremy
Ah, in us. How does that sound.

32:44.91
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah I think I agree with most of that other than there wasn't there a line there I don't have it in front of me where it said like anyone who doesn't know god doesn't know love or something like that. Um, from your first month oh okay

32:56.60
Jeremy
Anyone who does not love does not know god so he's saying don't claim that you you are following Jesus if you are not actually loving the people around you which is Paul's argument here when he says like love your neighbor.

33:02.65
forestandtrees
Okay, so maybe yeah.

33:09.79
forestandtrees
Um.

33:12.53
Jeremy
Is really all you need because if you understand how Jesus set that up. You can't love god without loving your neighbor. So if I'm loving my neighbor I am loving god and that's ah you know so I think it's almost like ah they keep reducing it even simpler simpler simpler but it's the same exact message if I'm loving my neighbor as Jesus.

33:16.65
forestandtrees
Mean.

33:30.86
Jeremy
That is how I love god so I'm also loving god in that process. But I think you have to understand there's a lot of people in this culture and in ours that are like no I'm just gonna love god screw my neighbor like I don't to do anything to my neighbor I don't owe them anything who is my neighbor we we keep asking that question today over and over.

33:43.77
forestandtrees
Um.

33:48.14
forestandtrees
Yeah.

33:50.34
Jeremy
And you know I want I want to be able to hate the people that I want to hate and I think what you find in these intestine writers is like no not if you want to love god.

34:00.10
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I Yeah I Yeah I I appreciate that I I am very attracted to that picture of God Of course you know that's I feel like that's a big part of why there's so much confusion about the.. The God of the bible because there's so many pictures of of like a violent God but he still like calls himself love and says God is love so that seems to create a lot of unnecessary confusion I would say but um, also yeah I I think that it I don't know kind of gets into the whole like.

34:16.29
Jeremy
Sure.

34:33.99
forestandtrees
Faith versus works thing a little bit because like passages like this and a lot of like the parables of Jesus seem to suggest that it's it's more about the the outpouring of what you do. It's more about like those who really loved are the ones who are in the kingdom this idea of like it. It would lead me to conclude that like. Atheists who do a better job of loving people are more likely to get into heaven than christians who are unloving I don't I don't know if you agree with that save it or interpretation. Yeah.

35:03.37
Jeremy
Well I'm I'm a christian universalist. So I think everyone's gonna gonna come to terms with Jesus but I we thought about this I do agree with you that I think there are atheists who act more like christians than some christians do based on the the premise of.

35:12.15
forestandtrees
Million. So.

35:19.67
Jeremy
Are you actually loving people genuinely.

35:20.65
forestandtrees
Right? right? and I guess like so to go back to like what I was asking about with like all these other examples from art and pop culture and stuff like that like what would you say that this like this idea of love like. Comes from god comes from Jesus or do you think like people can can just like come to this realization on their own that oh yeah, love is the most important thing in the universe ah without having like encountered the person of Jesus. What? What do you think about that.

35:54.84
Jeremy
I think you could get to it from all sorts of angles. Yeah, and I think I think that's you know what's the expression. Not all roads lead to to Jesus but Jesus can be found walking on all roads.

35:58.30
forestandtrees
Oh okay, that's interesting.

36:14.41
Jeremy
You know that idea of I don't think every world religion is the same I don't think they all mean the same thing at the end of the day. But I think you can find on ramps to Jesus through everything because I think all truth ultimately points to Jesus. So yeah I think.

36:22.29
forestandtrees
Um.

36:32.22
Jeremy
If you as you know, not you but just some person as an atheist decides hey I'm really going to dedicate my life to love I do think that's a step toward Jesus now you may not that person may not be wanting that step or may not be thinking in their minds. A step toward Jesus But who I see jesus to be I would say you actually took a step closer to.

36:36.14
forestandtrees
Um.

36:51.60
Jeremy
To Jesus that's awesome like way to go that you're you know now I would say that probably opens a door more to you to see Jesus you know the way I see him but maybe not but it's still fundamentally based on the logic that we see in Paul and John here fundamentally is a step toward who Jesus actually is.

37:07.51
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean I keep I keep thinking about the the parable of the good samaritan here like I think I think the main point of that parable was that the samaritan is is from a different tribe but another angle is also that the Samaritan was of a different religion. Then the priest and the Levi right? like he.

37:28.10
Jeremy
Well, they were the like halfbreeds they had. They had some things to comment Some things's not um yeah I mean that's that's why I love all this. It's like there. There's no if if love you know, especially this kind of love is the metric then.

37:31.31
forestandtrees
Yeah.

37:44.70
Jeremy
Anyone's invited to experience this and to live this out and doesn't matter what you call yourself or what religion you would say you're a part of you know it's like or lack thereof you're invited to live a life of love and if Christians did a better job of modeling this I think this will be what christianity would be known for.

37:56.20
forestandtrees
Um.

38:01.73
forestandtrees
Right.

38:03.94
Jeremy
But it's it's not necessarily a unique. This should be if let's put this way if Christians did a better job of this. This should be uniquely thought of as a Christian trait but it's not to the failure of you know Christians who have not lived this out. Well.

38:14.47
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, of course.

38:22.67
Jeremy
Um, not because that's not who God is or who God is asking us to be and so to me that is who God is that is what God is asking of us and you know to your point I do think there's a lot of atheists that love well and love probably better than a lot of christians. Do.

38:38.26
forestandtrees
Totally yeah as as I was like put it thinking about this question I kept thinking about the phrase that I see a lot of atheists put out there of there's no hate like Christian love um, and and I didn't even want to go down that they're they're talking about people being intolerant of homosexuals and just anyone who doesn't. Believe what they believe but but still calling it love like obviously that's that's a huge problem within christianity and I don't know I didn't even want to go down that route because I was more wanted to ask about how like it seems to be the same. Obviously there's tons of examples of like really vile intolerant christians who are really bad examples of love.

39:10.37
Jeremy
On.

39:14.33
forestandtrees
But just generally like when I think about the the christians in my own life like I don't see them as hateful people for the most part but they don't seem to be any better than the non-believers in my life. They seem to be you know, just about the same like just good people all around but very different. Ah.

39:22.87
Jeremy
Right.

39:28.21
Jeremy
Right.

39:33.12
forestandtrees
Theological worldviews.

39:34.91
Jeremy
Okay, so this gets into I want to respond with a question for you? Um, so my answer is you know the unique part of Christian is tied to Jesus I'm curious then you you seem like a person who's committed to love and to loving your neighbor. How would you How would you define you know your sense of it. So are there any limits right? because I think that's where okay, can it can it be anything. Can we define love as anything. We want to define love as or are we going to say hey it's got to be It's got to look like this or not you know there are certain things that would not be considered. Obviously there's like stereotypical arguments that get used and you know you'd reference that you've heard this before but you know what about the person that says I'm in love with my animal I want to you know I want to express my love. This is totally normal. Would you go? Yeah that's that's real love or the the adult who says I want to love this child. And this is totally normal and this is my expression of love lots of examples that are extreme like that. But I guess my question is since your concept of love is not based on Jesus on what grounds would you exclude or include examples like this What's your criteria for defining. Love. You know in your own pursuit now.

40:49.44
forestandtrees
Yeah, so I feel like what what you're asking is a lot more specifically about like romantic and specifically sexual stuff right? with with the animal and with the child ah to which like with with those examples I would say The. The most important thing is consent right? like that's why it's not okay to have sex with children or animals because it's it's abusive without their consent and even if you get the child's consent. It's still abusive because of the power Imbalance. So I I think like that's just like. Ah, really important thing like whether you're a Christian or not that we all need to do be aware of right? The importance of Mutual consent with with that kind of love I mean does that seem like a fair answer. Okay.

41:35.16
Jeremy
I Don't think it's enough. But yeah I think it's a good start because I would say how do you? How do you know? How do you know you have true consent because now you're getting and you know into power dynamics and someone could say I consented to that and.

41:40.72
forestandtrees
Ah, so.

41:52.74
Jeremy
There's plain examples I see it I go I don't think that's true consent because there's a power imbalance but how how do you know? how you know how do you know? the animal is not consenting How do you know the child's not like on what grounds are you saying? no to that consent.

42:05.87
forestandtrees
Yeah, well I mean obviously with the I mean with a child versus with an animal are are very different I guess but you know they're both I don't know they're both in this kind of ah like kind of repulsive area. You know, like with a. With an animal For example, it's it's kind of just this strange inconsistency. We have of like as a society like we think it's okay to eat animals but we don't think it's okay to abuse them sexually you know like I would say like both of those are like going against. The animal's consent and like in in any case with whatever you do with an animal of course an animal can't talk and can't have a conversation with you. But I I think it's it's easy to see. Ah why they're not consenting if they if they resist you right? If they. React to pain like when you step on your dog's tail when he's laying on the ground and he just yelps in pain and scurries away like yeah, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what's happening there. You know like no one enjoys ah people preying upon them people abusing them people inflicting. Pain upon them I don't think you need christianity or the teachings of Jesus to come to that conclusion and I think like of of course with all of these things. There's there's tons of gray area like with the idea of childhood consent. You know of course.

43:37.67
forestandtrees
18 is the age of consent where you know you could be like a 96 year old dude dating an 18 year old girl and technically that's legal but a lot of us would still think like is that you know what what's going on there. A lot of people might might have questions about that and so you know that's just like. Have to put a number on it somewhere in terms of the law. But I mean all of these things are a negotiation I would say and I would say that's true. Whether you're um, whether you're following the christianity version of love or not, you know what? I mean because there's because the bible is so. Ambiguous and open to interpretation and no one agrees on what it means to love your neighbor even you know even like new testament romans 13 bible believing christians right.

44:30.59
Jeremy
Okay.

44:35.82
forestandtrees
Ah, okay, what am I not answering question What? what are you looking for here.

44:36.89
Jeremy
No I'm so waiting for your criteria. What's your So what's your criteria for love. How do you? How do you define? What's love and what's not love.

44:46.30
forestandtrees
What's love and what's not like treating other people. Well um, treating other others as you'd like to be treated like the Golden rule. They're treating others as as they would like to be treated as far as you can tell like if you can have a conversation with them. That's how you figure out how they would like to be treated if it. If you're dealing with an animal. Obviously you can't have that conversation. But I think you can use your own logic and reason and intuitive nature to see like if you're hurting this person then you're not loving them.

45:20.42
Jeremy
So so your answer is as long as you're not harming someone That's love.

45:28.17
forestandtrees
I know I think if you're if you're treating them. Well, that's love if you have I mean love in terms of just like the emotional thing of like ah feeling positive feelings towards other people.

45:41.46
Jeremy
Ah I don't know how that's I'm asking. How do you Define love.

45:45.31
forestandtrees
How do I Define Love Okay maybe I'd really hung up on on your qualifiers there with the with the children and animals thing. Ah what is.

45:53.50
Jeremy
Those are just extreme examples that people use but the question is I would define love based on Jesus you would not so what are you defining your sense of love on which is interesting you you've referenced the golden rule which I would say was kind of a big christian idea.

46:07.19
forestandtrees
Um.

46:10.21
forestandtrees
E.

46:12.26
Jeremy
Although I would say the platinum role trumps that role. But um, but I don't think that's the I don't I don't think that's the atheist argument to a Non-christian Love is the Golden rule.

46:22.28
forestandtrees
Right? because because you would say that Jesus like invented that or was the first to to come up with that or.

46:27.60
Jeremy
Jesus was the first that I've ever found recorded that use it in the positive. So there's numerous examples in the negative which is don't harm people or don't do to others what you wouldn't want them to do to you. There's and I've used this on a sermo for I'd have to look at them. There's like 3 examples before Jesus.

46:37.20
forestandtrees
Um.

46:46.14
Jeremy
That people use that idea in the negative do not do to someone what you would not want them to do to you? Okay, Jesus is the first that I've ever found recorded that said it in the positive due to others what you want them to do to you so it's that same concept right? He didn't invent the concept but he's saying it I would say in a much stronger way.

46:52.22
forestandtrees
Um.

47:05.92
Jeremy
But then I would say the platinum roll Jesus says as I have loved you now you go love other people which now supersedes that it's not just how do I want you to love me. It's I'm gonna love you directly How Jesus has loved me which goes to John 4 7 so again, that's how that's the christian flavor of it. So I'm guessing I'm I'm still not clear. What's the non-christian flavor of love how how is it? How do I how do I understand how to love if I don't want to if I don't want to use Jesus what am I using.

47:35.27
forestandtrees
Ah, okay I think you should just use the example of treating other people well like having other people's best interests in mind you know when obviously that's going to change depending on the circumstance. But. Like if someone is hungry. You give them something to eat if someone needs help crossing the street help them with that I think you know like that this kind of idea brotherly mutually. Beneficial love is all of us. Treating each other well is is that not a good definition that too vague. Okay well, what do you think would be a better 1 besides Jesus.

48:14.15
Jeremy
Seems pretty vague that seems pretty vague. I don't I don't know that's why I think Jesus is a more compelling version I don't think I would say if you lose Jesus you you have this is my argument I don't think they're all all these people talk about love if you're not talking about Jesus. You have you have a vague concept of what love is then cause like what's it.

48:35.50
forestandtrees
Um.

48:39.56
forestandtrees
Um.

48:39.76
Jeremy
I am so Waiting. What's it based on like how do I know if I'm how do I know if I'm really loving that person and you know if if it's just what they want What if the drug addict wants. Another fix is the most loving thing for me to do to give them. Fix that they need in the moments. That's what they want or is the more loving thing to do to tell them no because I think that's ultimately better for them based on what you said I would say I give them the fix because that's what they want.

49:02.86
forestandtrees
Sure yeah, that's right, all these things are very complicated and nuanced. But I mean like Jesus also didn't like say anything about how we should treat drug addicts right.

49:14.52
Jeremy
Right? But my my ethic of okay, how do I love you the way god has loved me then I would use that criteria. So I guess I'm just like I'm not understanding. What's the criteria. How would I navigate to know in that situation if it's not based on Jesus what? what am I using to know what.

49:32.88
forestandtrees
I Think it's what doing doing what's best for them like in the case of the the drug addict and and again this is I don't even know what the answer to that is like it should should you give them their fix or should you let them write it out I mean it it depends on.

49:33.18
Jeremy
What's the most loving way to treat them.

49:52.67
forestandtrees
So many things with that right? because there's the big, the debate about the decriminalization of drugs and the way like different um countries handle that. But yeah I guess I don't see how how like Jesus changes that when you get into like these specific ethical questions because. Jesus didn't talk about most of the specific ethics that we deal with in the day to day. Okay I I feel like I'm royally disappointed you with my answer.

50:14.94
Jeremy
Sure.

50:25.39
forestandtrees
Sorry Love Love is a mystery man like it's it's It's very vague and very open to interpretation and it means they're very different things and it's always a negotiation.

50:36.84
Jeremy
Ah, okay I Just got to say I think that's a that does not sound as good to me as the the the Christian flavor of love. But that's that's my own opinion on that one. So I think that's the problem is if anything can be love.

50:42.63
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, okay yeah I.

50:51.73
Jeremy
And it's only based on my sense of this is what you want or this is what's best for you that just.

50:55.85
forestandtrees
But no, it's okay so that's I disagree with that because I'd say it's it's It's a negotiation like I'm saying like if it's me and the drug dealer and I'm trying to decide do I Give this drug dealer his fix. Do I Call the cops on him do I send a rehab. What I do you know it's It's not just me making a decision. It's It's the drug dealer. Also I mean the drug addict I mean this is the case with with all people like you need their consent like to go back to the beginning of the question right.

51:30.46
Jeremy
I've tried to think I read a book recently and I can't think of the title off top of my head. But um, she makes this whole argument of ah we obviously and it's mainly kind of like romantic love in in the concept of this book. But. Her argument is we start with consent but she makes this whole argument of how consent isn't enough and it was actually a really interesting point and that's what you know, kind of as I'm teasing all these questions of like how do you know like how do you really know consent consent I think sounds great on paper and if it's not there at all. Then yeah, that's a clear.

51:59.99
forestandtrees
Um.

52:05.52
Jeremy
Clear case of abuse. But even when it is there I think there's a lot of it's your 96 year old and the eighteen year old is that consent. You know there's like a lot of that kind of stuff that you go if all we say is consent then you would check the box and go yep, it's good. You know it's consent that they both consented and you know there's just.

52:13.51
forestandtrees
Um.

52:24.48
Jeremy
Times are like that kind of feels gross or I think of you know, ah I'll internalize it to the Christian world. There's a lot of times you know like in church ministry pastors you know, have abusive relationships with people and then well they consented to it. It's like well yeah, well, you're in a leadership role of spiritual authority.

52:40.92
forestandtrees
Is.

52:43.45
Jeremy
You're gonna argue that that's ah ah that person's able to truly consent you know with someone who has this heightened sense of influence. You know to me so it's not just I'm not picking on atheists I'll pick on anybody but the the consent idea I think is just not enough by itself. It's God Let love's got to go beyond that. Um.

52:53.91
forestandtrees
Sure yeah.

53:03.20
Jeremy
I Don't know it's just my my my recent thoughts on that.

53:05.70
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean and of course the the clergy we we should mention is not does not have a spotless record when it comes to sexually abusing children. So I yeah I I don't know again I just feel like with with all of these like.

53:14.41
Jeremy
Totally.

53:23.27
forestandtrees
Specific ethical questions like ah yeah, a lot of them are really complex and nuanced and we could debate them all day and I don't really see how Jesus speaks into. Any of those right? like Jesus doesn't say a 96 year old can't date an 18 year old either? Yeah, but yeah, I'm I'm humbled by my lack of having a coherent answer to your question Jeremy I'll have to think a lot more about it. So.

53:39.46
Jeremy
He.

53:56.16
forestandtrees
Appreciate you challenging me on that. Yeah yeah, what? what is love Anyway, all right? Well final question for you in Verse Eleven we're talking about what what I'm pretty sure is some some end time stuff.

53:56.52
Jeremy
Maybe we can revisit it at a later episode. What is love.

54:15.27
forestandtrees
From Paul's perspective where he says this is all the more urgent for you know how late it is time is running out wake up for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. So like I said you could interpret this different ways I suppose because you could say like set up at the end times. It's about you're going to die someday. So your salvation is. Upon you. But anyway I'm interpreting it as like Paul thinks Jesus is coming back soon because as I understand that's how the early church saw it because that's what Jesus said he said he's coming back soon and we've talked about this before we're asking you about like what about the part when Jesus. Says like some of you will not taste death and and you had like an interesting answer for that which I appreciate. Um, but I think the problem with Jesus's perpetually imminent return is that it's kind of unfalsifiable, right? Like it's been 2000 years christser still waiting and there's a way to see that as. Aspirational and hopeful or is that there's a way to see that as like kind of sad and pathetic like is what what are you guys waiting for it. It's not going to happen which which I don't I don't mean to be insulting I realize that's a little bit um, insensitive to say it that way. But anyway I just ah. In in light of the unfalsifiability problem that I just brought up. Is there anything that might cause you to doubt that he's actually coming back.

55:35.10
Jeremy
Um, it's it's an interesting question I thought about this and I don't I don't have like a real complex answer to it. My thought is you know when I look at like what Paul was saying in verse 11 is Paul's probably trying to address apathy in the church. You know they they probably are like. Yeah, whatever, let's you know we'll get around to following Jesus eventually and he's like wake up like your time's running out like you need to do this. So I think I almost sense like a pastoral heart here that Paul's like look I'm trying to address like you guys are acting like none of this matters and I'm trying to tell you it matters. Um. But then also I think in their lifetime with what they had seen. They probably all did think it was going to be quick and I think we have to acknowledge like from their point of view Paul probably thought it would not have been another 2000 years and it doesn't bother me to to acknowledge that that I think that's probably where Paul was going with that. Um, you know for me I would say the only that would really cause me to doubt like this is not going to happen is if I stop believing in Jesus that I'd be like yeah that it all goes together and you know if I don't think Jesus is realed then but here's what I would say and I don't know I don't know your reaction to this. This doesn't actually shape a ton of the way I follow Jesus day to day so it really seems like ah like ah yeah I mean I believe it's gonna happen. But ah I I would say if if I have a problem in this It's that I tend to think the other way I assume it probably won't happen in my lifetime and so.

56:57.31
forestandtrees
Um.

57:12.18
forestandtrees
Um.

57:12.29
Jeremy
If anything I'm probably on the apathetic end of the spectrum that Paul would be like wake up like hey act like this is happening now and I'm like yeah but Paul spent 2000 years and odds are you know it's not going to be in my lifetime. Yeah, like so to me it it again.

57:22.73
forestandtrees
Yeah, what are the chances. Yeah.

57:30.35
Jeremy
I try to follow Jesus in such a way of it wouldn't matter if Jesus came back today or tomorrow or you know 100 years from now like I'm still gonna follow Jesus today the same way. So to me it doesn't really shape anything that I'm going to to decide. Um. Other than it gives me a sense of hope that I do think god's going to ultimately redeem all of this which then gets into you know my view of like Jesus is going to make all things right at the end of all this and that's what eternity looks like is Jesus coming back and making things right and redeeming everything that's been broken. So from that point of view I live with the hope of that but I don't I wouldn't say I'm on the edge of my seat looking at the sky every day thinking is that him.

58:13.92
forestandtrees
Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't affect your your day to day life in that way.

58:18.60
Jeremy
And I say that almost with like an acknowledgement that maybe it should you know and like even as I'll say about your question I'm like is there something wrong with me like am I a bad Christian because I I don't have like a huge sense of urgency here. But honestly I don't know what what I do different.

58:24.00
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

58:37.61
Jeremy
If I thought like I would still follow Jesus the way I'm following Jesus so I don't I don't even know if I thought truly it was going to be a month from now I mean I may make different financial decisions. But.

58:46.58
forestandtrees
Um.

58:51.34
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, especially with your um end with 0 mentality right? and have you got you got a lot more capital to spend real quick. Ah yeah, yeah, that's true. Um.

58:52.17
Jeremy
Oh die with 0 yeah yeah I got I got to burn through all this in a month that's that's a good point. Jeff.

59:05.10
forestandtrees
But yeah, that's good I agree with you in terms of like what what? Paul's really getting at here is like time is short like don't don't waste time and like I was saying in the question of I feel like you could interpret that even if you don't believe Jesus is ever coming back like either way, it's like time is short so you know do what do? what? you got to do? well.

59:19.12
Jeremy
Well I do like the like you you mentioned this I like the literal reading of ah you know like our salvation is near now than we first believed. Well yeah, you're also near now to death and when you first believed like and every and every day you could say it every day would be true right? which.

59:23.10
forestandtrees
Well, you can.

59:29.78
forestandtrees
Right? right? Yeah, every every day you're one day closer to death for sure. Yeah.

59:37.85
Jeremy
But there's part of that. That's yeah, just a fundamental like live in the moment be present. Don't put off till tomorrow. You know you you don't have tomorrow like there's at some point for all of us. There is no tomorrow I don't know what that is for me but I'm gonna live you know now. Ah, and so I don't know again, It's just like.

59:49.97
forestandtrees
Um.

59:55.96
Jeremy
Paul's pastoral heart coming out was there apathy in the church he was dealing with were there certain people that needed a little kick in the butt. You know to follow Jesus like I don't know if there's some of that in this. But today I don't know what I would say is the traditional christian view of hell. Gets used with this of hurry hurry hurry else these people are gonna burn if you don't get them in right? So that is that is definitely a Christian way of understanding this. It would not be my answer but I do want to acknowledge. There's probably a lot of people go yeah, that's that's why you know because if you don't.

01:00:18.57
forestandtrees
Right.

01:00:32.17
Jeremy
You don't save them. You don't convert them. They're gonna burn in hell and you didn't get a chance. So ah so that would be a way of interpreting it obviously because of my my view of hell or lack thereof I don't I don't think that view but there would be a lot of cursions that would make space for that.

01:00:47.78
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's interesting I I wonder if just cultural evangelical christianity is as focused on end time stuff now as it was when I was a kid because when I was thinking about this view I I remember like when I was a kid I did have that rapture anxiety and think like.

01:01:03.92
Jeremy
On 1

01:01:06.76
forestandtrees
Jesus is probably coming back within my lifetime and like we talked about a long time ago I was like hopefully Jesus comes up after all the star wars movies come out. Um, but I remember also just having like times when it was like I don't know like I have a test in school tomorrow or just whatever.

01:01:15.70
Jeremy
Yep out.

01:01:24.32
forestandtrees
Like some some yeah exactly just some whatever just some thing that I didn't want to face like in my near future and just thinking like maybe Jesus will come back and all of my problems will be taken care of ah like like I've said before I do feel like this is where that kind of becomes a problem is if people.

01:01:24.82
Jeremy
Um, saying your prayers the night before now's a good time. Jesus.

01:01:43.69
forestandtrees
Think like we don't need to take care of the environment because god is coming back any day now and he'll make all things new but you know I I think what there's there's certainly a more um, pragmatic positive way to interpret. Paul's words here and saying like be a good person. Be a good citizen. Pay your taxes He says something about like don't don't go to drunken parties or something like that right? which seems a little bit counter to if the end is if the end is coming anytime now like maybe yeah, maybe you do want to let your hair mess your hair down a little bit.

01:02:08.23
Jeremy
Um.

01:02:13.61
Jeremy
Um, come up all, get let us have our moment time is running out Paul yeah, which is it. That's awesome.

01:02:23.72
forestandtrees
Ah, but you know I mean like for some people you know drunken parties are are not super fun. So maybe maybe Paul just wasn't into that scene. Yeah, um, okay yeah, that's fine I don't know I was.

01:02:26.76
Jeremy
Oh but wasn't that wasn't his crowd.

01:02:39.10
forestandtrees
I was pushing a little bit more on the on falsifiability thing of like the whole like ah yeah because when um because I've I've heard some people make the argument that the the second Peter phrase of 1000 years are like a day to the lord that that was.

01:02:41.40
Jeremy
Which I agree with yeah, there's no way. There's no way of verifying that totally.

01:02:56.60
forestandtrees
Second Peter was written much later and it was kind of written as a response to that specific passage. It was written as a response to like didn't jesus say it was coming back soon. It's been like over a generation a lot of his disciples have died at by this point like yeah, it's such an interesting timescale with a.

01:03:01.80
Jeremy
People getting frustrated.

01:03:14.40
forestandtrees
Thousand years to a day so you could say it's only been two days at this point so that's it's not a very long time to wait and I was thinking like how how long would you have to wait before you would say like all right come on like if it was a million years that will only be a thousand days which is like 3 years is is that even unreasonable at that point I don't know.

01:03:30.62
Jeremy
You know I don't know if your brain goes there but like I do get to this point of like okay will there be some invention or some like tipping point in humanity that is like this is the moment god's like all right now now you know I waited till you got to this point. And so yeah I read a bunch about like a I my mike is a I the thing you know like when a I either goes to full consciousness is that the moment Jesus comes back? yeah.

01:03:56.63
forestandtrees
Oh no, you're frozen. Can you hear me.

01:04:06.92
forestandtrees
Yeah I can hear you but your picture is frozen. Oh now you're back. Okay, shoot we were so close to getting through all right. We can keep going. It's still recording.

01:04:07.60
Jeremy
Jaf. Oh I can see you and hear you.

01:04:19.61
Jeremy
Um, so I think of like with Ai like when Ai gets fully conscious. You know is that the moment. Ah Jesus decides like all right now I'm coming back or is there some pivot point you want to know one of the most fast things that I've ever read I don't think we've ever talked about this on the podcast.

01:04:38.50
forestandtrees
Okay.

01:04:38.64
Jeremy
Um, drop this at the very end 1 of the most fascinating things I've ever read and nobody is talking about Jeff and I literally don't understand I read a book that was talking about the the population of the earth and and how that is historically played out.

01:04:50.28
forestandtrees
Me.

01:04:54.62
Jeremy
And there are more people alive right now than have ever been alive. You know and all the like all those kind of things that are kind of like trippy to think about and he makes the argument if you track the birth rates across all countries of the world. You can track this right like all right? How what's the you know the the rate of new birds and all this.

01:04:56.54
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

01:05:09.33
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:05:13.97
Jeremy
That they can forecast that in the year twenty fifty we will hit maximum capacity of humanity at which point it will start going down and if nothing changes we'll never recover permanently from that point on.

01:05:27.67
forestandtrees
Like it will go down permanently. It won't plateau you mean? okay.

01:05:33.19
Jeremy
Because of you can track and again these are all like they track numbers. This is not like ah an opinion. These are like if this currently if nothing changes if we keep doing what we're doing keep having kids at the rate we're having kids ah that we are are are under the number required just to maintain the population.

01:05:40.60
forestandtrees
Is.

01:05:51.30
Jeremy
And so everyone in our minds we wish about ah you just too many people too many people that will be true until 2050 they will itll grow grow grow and I think they estimated it like 13000000 is where they thought like that's going to be or 13000000000 excuse me. That's the that's the peak that they like they forecast the numbers to get to.

01:05:56.41
forestandtrees
Just.

01:06:02.51
forestandtrees
Billion. Yes.

01:06:09.17
Jeremy
But then literally if nothing changes with the birth rates. It starts going down and there's no way to recover that unless people dramatically start altering how they have kids it yes like but and I'd have to remember a book I remember reading this book and it's.

01:06:16.13
forestandtrees
As in as then it would go down to 0 given enough time I mean. Okay, yeah, that is hard to believe.

01:06:28.95
Jeremy
And he's not like he's not sensationalizing. He's just literally saying here are the numbers and here's why like people are having less kids than they ever have historically like you know it's It's been decreasing decreasing decreasing and here's all the reason why and a lot of it is because we're empowering women right? and so women have their own choice now. So they don't They're not forced to have me kids like.

01:06:31.74
forestandtrees
Um.

01:06:41.85
forestandtrees
Is.

01:06:47.35
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:06:48.20
Jeremy
Historically, they had been and and like all these different things. But I'm going. Okay, well, that's an interesting like in our lifetime we're going to be alive. You know God willing for the peak of humanity and then to experience the decline like isn't that a trippy thought like and again I don't I'm not.

01:06:54.81
forestandtrees
Will hit the peak population.

01:07:07.56
Jeremy
I'm not a prophet I don't know but that just seems like a pretty monumental time in the history of humanity or I don't know.

01:07:13.63
forestandtrees
What what a time to be alive. Yeah I mean we can I guess we could say we were there for the peak. But I mean it's not like we're gonna notice the effects right? because it's gonna be a long long time before we get back down to 0

01:07:28.81
Jeremy
Sure ah, but you know imagine people born after 2050 you're born into a reality where your worldview is that the population is shrinking. We are born into a worldview of the population is growing. So.

01:07:37.33
forestandtrees
Um.

01:07:38.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's true if it is a trippy thought.

01:07:45.32
Jeremy
All of us alive today have that worldview like that's how you view humanity. it's it's growing there's there's more and more people right? But if everything plays out according to this book after 2050 anyone who's born is born into a totally different mindset of no, we're we're decreasing and so how do you live differently right? if that is.

01:07:58.58
forestandtrees
Yeah, so so Jesus has to hurry up and ah come back at least sometime before then right? if yeah.

01:08:03.88
Jeremy
I mean Jesus time is running out. You know how late it is Paul said it I don't know that this is the stuff I think about when I think about like end times I'm like could that be it is it the twenty fifty thing like Jesus waits till we've hit the maximum and then comes back like I don't know.

01:08:21.25
forestandtrees
Yeah, honestly I feel like that would be a ah miracle if if humanity can make it that long by just low birth by going to extinction via low birth rate rather than like nuclear War or climate change or something like that.

01:08:33.35
Jeremy
But what's interesting to think about is okay so it'll you know the climate and all that and resources will get worse up into that year but then it just start getting better and the earth would start healing itself again and it's just an interesting like you'd have less people on less resources and.

01:08:39.66
forestandtrees
And then I'll get better right? sure.

01:08:52.90
Jeremy
Not because of like a plague or anyone dying off. It's just we're not making new humans at the rate we were.

01:08:58.26
forestandtrees
Um, this is reminding me of a former guest Greg Boyd i' listened to a bunch of his podcast episodes and he seems to talk about this a lot. He talked about it when he was our guest. We seems to talk about a lot in his podcast too. The idea of human extinction like out because I'm one of his episodes was like someone wrote in an asked like.

01:09:08.94
Jeremy
Yeah.

01:09:15.67
forestandtrees
Is human extinction possible like biblically because you know then the end times can't happen the way it does in the bible and he was there because he obviously believes in all this stuff with climate Change War There's There's so many ways we could end ourselves before end time stuff happens and he said something like yeah, if. If humanity goes Extinct I Guess that would be definitive proof that God isn't real so the atheists win but there'd be no atheists there to celebrate so that was his answer to that question which I appreciate Yeah, which which again well just say for the record I would love to be proven wrong like.

01:09:42.54
Jeremy
Um, it's a hollow victory.

01:09:51.99
forestandtrees
I don't I don't want to see the end of humanity anytime soon you know because because I love you guys. You guys are great and I don't even know what love means.

01:10:01.12
Jeremy
Ah, full circle That's beautiful.

01:10:02.29
forestandtrees
Oh thanks, yeah, all right seems like a now that we've talked about human extinction good way to end it any other closing thoughts Jim yeah.

01:10:08.69
Jeremy
On that note everybody have a great day. Wow that it did kind of end on the ominous note. Ah I don't know how to recover from that I mean we have some time until then.

01:10:23.33
forestandtrees
Yeah, few thousand years to get her act together. Oh sure here to be.

01:10:27.80
Jeremy
No I'm saying like you know till 2050 that's all saying but ah yeah I mean in our lifetime I'm not gonna be around by time we go extinct. But what's interesting too is okay so let's say that happens.

01:10:41.96
Jeremy
Do people start living differently. Do people start having more kids in respect you know I mean like that's what I think will be fascinating is like.

01:10:44.79
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, That's what I was thinking too of like if if things get better then potentially people are happier and you know more likely to want to start a family you know because I think that's you know that's a conversation a lot of young people are having now of like the ethical question of whether or not you should have children. Because like do you want to expose a child to this world or like if if you believe like overpopulation is a problem that contributes to poverty and starvation and stuff like people might make the ethical decision to not bring another child into this world. But you know in the future If. That's a non-issue then people wouldn't have that hesitancy.

01:11:04.44
Jeremy
I Don't know.

01:11:20.14
Jeremy
Now there you go first. Let's slightly slightly more positive.

01:11:23.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah, have you read any? um, have you read anything on Antinatalism Jeremy I'm guessing you're not an antinatalist based on the fact that if 5 get all really, that's that's the the view that it's unethical to bring a child into this world because it's um.

01:11:32.97
Jeremy
I Don't even know what that is.

01:11:42.76
forestandtrees
You're automatically, um, going to expose them to suffering and if you if you don't bring a child in this world then they will experience 0 suffering. Um, yeah, it's it's interesting. Ah David benar wrote a book called better never to have been where he makes that argument. That's yeah.

01:11:44.39
Jeremy
And.

01:12:00.70
Jeremy
Jeez That's kind of a downer that's your way of bringing us back up were we're trying to end it on a on a happier note then you're gonna go. You're gonna go with that huh.

01:12:02.47
forestandtrees
Yeah, very very very very bleak. Um, for worldview Yeah, ah sorry about that. Well.

01:12:17.46
forestandtrees
All right? Well yeah, well we'll ended there. Thanks for listening everyone. Yeah I guess in conclusion, um, it's all going to end soon and who knows what love is anyway time is running out so you know get those 5 star reviews in while you still can.

01:12:18.78
Jeremy
Before this gets more depressing.

01:12:27.95
Jeremy
Time is running out.

01:12:36.13
forestandtrees
And I'm going to be sharpening my fangs for chapter fourteen next week it's going to be a good doozy see you then.