Finally something we agree on. It’s easy to see why Jeremy calls this the most underrated chapter in Romans!
Topics
Has Christianity become the villain?
Spiritual Gifts
Prophecy
Do We need Jesus to be non-violent?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
Finally something we agree on. It’s easy to see why Jeremy calls this the most underrated chapter in Romans!
Topics
Has Christianity become the villain?
Spiritual Gifts
Prophecy
Do We need Jesus to be non-violent?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
00:00.00
Jeremy
Welcome friends. We've made it to 1 of the trifecta chapters that I have teased out for a long time in this series have been with us welcome to the force in the trees. My name is Jeremy and I'm joined as usual by my friend. Jeff.
00:16.51
forestandtrees
Where's my pig did you see Pig Jeremy have you watched it yet.
00:20.15
Jeremy
I I still have it. You're you're you're making me look bad here I still haven't seen is this another another quote from that movie.
00:24.71
forestandtrees
Che do I mean isn't it obvious. It's in the trailers you even watch the trailer jimmy do you know how many hours of audiobooks I've gone through based on your recommendations. This is starting to feel a little bit 1 sided at this point.
00:32.97
Jeremy
Um, did it. Ah.
00:42.43
Jeremy
Youre it is I You know to my defense. Ah I have more children than you do So I'm going to say a little bit more disposable time is on your side of the equation than mine. But yes.
00:44.43
forestandtrees
Think is a 90 minute movie it's in and out.
04:11.99
Jeremy
We'll let 13 be 13 ah today we're gonna explore whether christianity has become a villain explore the role of prophecy and spiritual gifts today and what it means for jesus to be nonviolent now I'd like to set the tone with. Verse 12 it's beautiful says rejoice in our confident hope be patient in trouble and keep on praying so Jeff rejoice and our confident hope be patient and keep on praying.
04:50.16
forestandtrees
All right, You've convinced me but I'll keep ah still still waiting. You know, living on a prayer. Yep Ah, okay, yeah, all to work on that one for sure. But I think.
04:50.59
Jeremy
Those for you? Yeah, but you got you got to have that confident hope Jeff.
05:02.81
Jeremy
Forget.
05:06.60
forestandtrees
Have a lot of patience I don't know you know I've been been waiting 32 years I'll keep waiting why not? Ah thanks, patiently waiting for you to to watch ah at least one of my movie recommendations. It's been it's been ten weeks
05:08.45
Jeremy
I Think you're I think you're pretty patient.
05:17.99
Jeremy
You're not very patient about that I will I will just throw that out there. Yeah I just I need more time.
05:23.13
forestandtrees
And so long. Yeah, not well. Yeah, you're giving me the opportunity to to stretch my patience. This is like yeah this is like patience Crossfit for me, it's it's beautiful. Ah.
05:29.12
Jeremy
There you there you go you can practice patience with me. Yes, thank you I Appreciate that.
05:41.31
forestandtrees
I love this chapter too. Jeremy this is a very refreshing, beautiful uplifting chapter I think there's there's great stuff in here for everyone. You got ah humility teamwork generosity having a solid work ethic and like loving your enemies nonviolence you know, just. Great stuff all around so excited to dive into it and we have an iconic verse right? from the start in ah verse two says don't copy the behavior and customs of this world. Blood god transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know god's will for you which is is good and pleasing and perfect will also just want to point out the and iv version is is the really famous turn of phrase that I always remembered like from memorizing this as a kid was be transformed by the renewing of your mind I think that's I know. That's that's the way I always remember this verse being being said, but changing the way you think is is less poetic but it's I know it's a little bit more direct and it's an interesting way to think about it.
06:39.78
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.
06:45.72
Jeremy
You know that isn't a problem though like most of the verses I have memorized I've memorized in N I v so I have to like I'll you know if I'm looking it up for the podcast. It'll be an nlt and it like it won't pull up I'm like ting it so to go switch it to and Iv find my verse I'm thinking of cause that's the phrase.
06:53.87
forestandtrees
Ah.
07:05.61
Jeremy
<unk> I know and then retranslate it which is just kind of a funny thing if you're a Christian any or guess anybody who studies the bible and you learn you try to memorize it Whatever version you pick as consequences choose wisely.
07:06.10
forestandtrees
Yeah.
07:20.47
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, and with romans in particular because you got the romans road and just like so many verses that I remember like memorizing for Awana when I was a little kid if our listeners know what that is I did yeah, that's why that's why I'm not ashamed because I'm an approved workman. Ah, anyway.
07:26.69
Jeremy
You did a wanna Wow Yeah, explain so much.
07:38.60
forestandtrees
So maybe maybe you can change help me change the way I think here Jeremy so okay, this whole idea of like nonconformity this is like going back to the nineties kids thing I remember the not of this world t-shirts. Do you remember that was Jeremy and I think this is this is a theme that.
07:39.26
Jeremy
Okay, see what we can do.
07:49.61
Jeremy
I do.
07:55.78
forestandtrees
Runs very deeply throughout Christian culture and throughout the bible. The idea of not being like transformed by the way that this world is don't let the world affect you oftentimes it comes it manifests in sort of an us versus them mentality of like we here in the church are doing things right? and the ways of the world. Are evil you know they're they're sneaking ah woke agendas into the Disney movies for example and it's it's interesting. It's it's worth noting that like within context right? The the church in Rome that Paul is writing to is more of an oppressed minority. But throughout the past two thousand years christianity has become much more popular and especially here in America christianity is still the majority worldview so it's I don't it. It kind of made me think like what does that actually mean like for christians to not be affected by the ways of the world because christians have so much cultural capital. In the world especially in our own context here in America it reminded me a little bit of a quote from Harvey Dent from the dark night. You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain I think this can resonate a lot with the history of the church in the way that they used to be this.
08:55.96
Jeremy
Ah.
09:11.80
forestandtrees
Small oppressed minority and many times throughout history. They've become a violent oppressor. Ah today you know, culturally it it depends on who you ask? what? a lot of people would say that ah the christian moral majority is currently like trying to strip the rights off away from people and it's it's sort of this. Sad ironic twist in in my view. But I wonder what you think about the jeremy do you think by demonizing the ways of the world Christian and christianity has become the villain.
09:43.86
Jeremy
It's a great question I think the else the us versus them. Mentality can be very ah, problematic and the way it often gets used by christians I think becomes very problematic when christianity focuses itself on we are the victim. Of culture I would say it usually goes really bad and that's you know, a lot of the like the worst expressions you see is when a Christian or a group of christians you know are become convinced like it's us versus these guys and these guys are oppressing us and we've got to fight back and truthfully I would say this is what Trump. Played into with his campaign. You know this idea of appealing to christians of I'll fight for you I'll make things right? I'll get back. You know the influence that you once had as the church and.
10:25.61
forestandtrees
Ah.
10:32.57
Jeremy
That was really appealing to a lot of people like yeah you know we need that and I think it was because of this we are the victims we used to have all this power now we don't we used to have all this influence now we don't and I think that is ah it's a problematic way to see the world because it invites you into you know, seeing yourself as a victim.
10:43.93
forestandtrees
Um.
10:52.16
Jeremy
I would suggest it's far Better. We should be a beautiful anomaly as the church. Not an angry majority and yet oftentimes Christians want to be this loud majority. We. You know we coerce. The government We convince the government to rule the way we say we make the laws the way we say and this is really you know a lot of the rhetoric you hear? Um, So here's what I would say about the verse cause I don't think the problem is the verse and and I actually love this verse I would say the problem is. Many Christians have not changed the way they thought they they think exactly the same way the world thinks they just add a spiritual dynamic to what they think so they spiritualize their own opinions and that makes it even worse right. So I would say the the real problem is not this verse or this idea the problem is Christians are not changing the way that they think a lot of them and where this is most painfully obvious to me is when I hear Christians argue for Christian nationalism in the Us. It's like you are literally.
11:43.94
forestandtrees
Ah.
12:02.77
Jeremy
Just mainstream taking this rhetoric of the world adding in this flavoring to make it sound like it's godly and it's it's disgusting. You know it's not of Jesus it turns into white supremacy and patriarchy and all these other things that are not of Jesus and yet it. It can sound so good the way that they they you know, pitch it? Um, but I would say that what they end up doing is I'm going to add a spiritual justification to their opinions which makes you know opinions of the world that much worse and you know it's been said like you know you're never more dangerous than when you think you're defending god. Because you have this moral mandate to what you're doing that all of a sudden you know the any ends justify the means if it's a holy enough pursuit and I just think that's that's that is a recipe for a lot of bad stuff and so I would say you know to a christian.
12:49.80
forestandtrees
Um.
12:59.56
Jeremy
Hey, actually let's focus on changing the way we think like not just us versus the world but like how do we actually think differently than the world and as we're gonna get into some of the stuff that Jesus taught it's not coercive and. You know we're going to have more power and more control. It's the opposite of that and if we don't see that it's because we haven't actually changed the way we think.
13:23.14
forestandtrees
Yeah, well, it's It's kind of hard to know like what who should be changing the way that they think right because I can see why Christians would embrace this and think I don't need to change the way I think because I was brought up Christian so I already have the correct worldview. Do you know what? I mean. And they would say like maybe like big picture like the world has changed the way it it thinks because the world has gone from christianity being a small minority to being this this massive world religion.
13:55.68
Jeremy
I suppose it depends on how you frame it. You know, certainly to me this is ah this is like a everyday thing. You know it's not. It's not hey I was raised I was raised right? and I have the truth and therefore you know I'm just gonna stand my ground. It's like no every day I need to wake up and go Jesus.
13:59.11
forestandtrees
Um.
14:11.94
Jeremy
Change the way I think today to be more like the way you think and change my heart to be more like your heart today and literally it's like I think I'll have that posture till the day I die because otherwise I quickly go into you know I can be just as drawn to power and influence and prestige as anyone else and that. Can have its lure for me as well. So I have to constantly even if I feel like I have or I know the truth I have to constantly go god changed the way I think so that I'm not sucked into all this stuff that the world offers which it would be easy to get sucked into.
14:32.90
forestandtrees
Um.
14:45.99
forestandtrees
Yeah I don't know like what what I'm thinking about what you were talking about christian nationalism I'm trying to think of like is there is there a secular nationalism that you see like when I think about the the political left they seem to be generally much more skeptical. And much more measured in in their view of America like when I picture someone who loves America and has like the um you know american flag boxers or whatever like I'm I'm usually picturing a conservative Christian which maybe is an unfair stereotype. But I'm trying to imagine what the liberal version of that I suppose there are. Some people who really really love Joe Biden or something but you know ah I'm hard pressed to picture someone like that.
15:31.10
Jeremy
No I think I think there's something there I will probably share. You know the people who talk far more about love of country tend to be conservative and many of them would call themselves. You know devout Christians which I think.
15:47.70
forestandtrees
Um.
15:48.25
Jeremy
Is very problematic if you're trying to live out the church and you can't see the difference between your country and patriotism and you know this this radically other way of thinking that Jesus is inviting us into. But yeah I mean I think you know on both ends of it like even if you go you know more of the democrat and go which. Far less talk of god usually but they still they still will you know most of them will still say that they're Christian somehow or something because they know to not say that you're gonna lose you know the Christian voters. So I think there's an element of politics and on both sides of like all right I got to play the game enough so I don't alienate.
16:11.85
forestandtrees
Ah.
16:27.64
Jeremy
You know, whole segment of people but I just think you know that to me. It's like let the world run the world and we'll get into some of that next you know next week in chapter 13 like the world's gonna function. There's gonna be governments like fine. But.
16:35.83
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.
16:43.81
Jeremy
Where we somehow insert ourselves as Christians and say okay now we got to be at the center of this.. That's where I go whoa time out. Why Why do we have to be the center of that like let the government Govern Let people do that like that's gonna happen right? But like why are we feeling called to that. Why do we feel like we have to be running all of that and. You know? Well yeah, what don't you want? you know the people and I hear the full I don't you want the people making the laws. You know to be people who care about things that are it's like yeah I do sure but that is that is so messy when you start thinking the way in which we're going to bring God's Kingdom to Earth is through the kingdoms of this world.
17:11.62
forestandtrees
Right.
17:23.17
Jeremy
And I just go it doesn't it doesn't play out. Well I've I've read that book I've seen that story I've have watched that movie over and over like it doesn't go well it becomes like the world and so that's where I think it. I would say to any Christian now I don't care if you've been a christian your entire life or you're a baby Christian and all this is new to you every day is an opportunity to change the way you think and to say Jesus reset me so that I'm not functioning the way that I would normally function but through your spirit give me different eyes to see different things. I think that is an invitation for any christian and any Christian that would say no to that like no I got it I don't need it I would just say that seems silly to me to not to not expect to need to do that every day.
18:10.25
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, right? I suppose there's a lot of different ways to take this. Maybe I kind of took it in the political direction. But yeah I so I certainly see what you're saying in terms of more of the personal in your own life direction like you know I think you could just argue like that. This is a verse for. Concept of critical thinking and like you should always challenge your assumptions and not you know the thing that you believe yesterday isn't necessarily the thing you should believe tomorrow. So I mean I like it in that that interpretation.
18:39.80
Jeremy
Well even Jesus you know would ask people like how do you read it which I think's such a great question like here's the verse. Yeah, how do you read it like what do you think you know and and I love the critical thinking part of it but this is where I would say all of us would do better.
18:47.20
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
18:55.85
Jeremy
If we challenged our thinking every day right? No matter if you're an atheist or a christian or wherever on the spectrum. You'd say you are like don't don't we want better thinking out of all of us. So you know if we're a christian we would say that better thing is going to come from the holy spirit and from you know the influence of god but if you're not a Christian I would say yeah I still encourage you to like. Change the way you think to be better always and figure out how you could do that and pursue that you know.
19:20.56
forestandtrees
Yeah I hope so I mean it reminds me of like kind of the the idea people have of like always be learning always be like changing the way you think in that sense you know sometimes I wonder if like is that sustainable like I think it's probably like the older you get the harder. It is to. Um, change things I remember like before I turned thirty I had heard all these statistics about like once you turn 30 like you're set and and who you are and that was kind of this terrifying thought to me of like I only have so much time to become the person I want to be.
19:56.93
forestandtrees
Um, and so maybe that's unfortunate that I kind of like started seriously questioning religion right before I turn 30 but you know whatever like me, you know maybe I'll just hold out for the deathbed confession. You know, like the um, the workers in the vineyard strategy.
20:09.15
Jeremy
Well, if it makes if it makes you feel better. The the being set by 30 has not remotely been true in my life. So I am not the same guy was when I was thirty years old and I suspect you know I'm gonna keep growing. So I think there's something to it. You know I also was told.
20:16.10
forestandtrees
M.
20:28.91
Jeremy
This makes me laugh I was also told like hey as you get older, you're going to become more conservative just you know, be aware like when you're young, you know the liberal ideas sound cool and you'll be drawn to it. But as you get older, you'll definitely you'll come around. You know it's kind of one of those things and that also hasn't been true. So.
20:43.34
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I know yeah I feel similar We're getting back into politics again. But I wonder if that is kind of ah a generational difference if if millennials are going to stay liberal much to their Boomer parents um dismay.
20:46.79
Jeremy
I Don't know.
21:01.26
forestandtrees
But you know, tough time will tell um, all right? Well yeah, speaking prophetically let's let's move into verse 6 here. We've got a list of some of the gifts of the spirit. So it says in his grace god has given us different gifts for doing certain things. Well so if god has given you the ability to prophesy. Speak out with as much faith as god has given you so this is interesting. There's this whole list of gifts of the spirit here. There is um I just read about prophecy but are also lists serving teaching encouragement giving leadership and mercy. And when I think of gifts of the spirit I normally think of the more spooky controversial list in first corinthians it involves like healing and speaking in tongues and you know like the more charismatic stuff I was struck by this list because it's much more kind of like corporate. Approved much more safe and less controversial than the holy spirit type stuff um 2 through 7 in particular just seem like non-controversial like virtues that everyone could agree with but number 1 prophecy is a little bit more of like has a supernatural element to it. And and I know we've talked about prophecy before but I was I was curious if you've had experience with it because when I think about prophecy and like whether it's going to come true or not it. It seems to me that prophecies are either so vague and amorphous that.
22:30.30
forestandtrees
They're they're kind of undeniable like things like horoscopes or palm readers. People can make these very vague predictions and it's like oh that matches my life perfectly or sometimes people make very specific prophecies like they'll say the world is going to end next Thursday and then it's definitively proven wrong. So I want to ask you Jerry what.
22:45.31
Jeremy
Are.
22:49.28
forestandtrees
Have you had a specific prophecy that you've seen fulfilled in your own life. Oh yeah.
22:55.45
Jeremy
I actually have yeah this is kind of a bizarre story when I was in high school I Well this this growing up. Ah you know I grew up as a preacher's kid and loved the church thought it was awesome and I thought I'm gonna go into Ministry just like you know my dad and. Kind of went down that road until I gotten to be my senior year I think and I was kind of like I don't know if I want to do this I had seen some of the the ugliness of the inside of the Church. You know as a preacher's kid that I'm like yeah I don't know if that's for me I don't know if I want to do that and so kind of changed gears a little bit and applied to Asu. And was going to get a business degree and I thought you know what I'm just going to go make a bunch of money and go slay it in business and not do this ministry thing and I had the the student pastor of of our church at the time out of the blue one days like hey can I take you out to lunch.
23:41.71
forestandtrees
Um.
23:52.14
Jeremy
Like sure so we got to lunch and I'll never forget. We're having cal zones and I Don calzone is not like a food I eat a lot. But even back then but I just remember we were eating calz zones. That's it's an important detail of the story. It's not important I just remember it so we're eating cal zones and this pastor had been trained. You know in his in his career. He'd also been trained as a standup ah not standup a um improv comic and so he was just one of those really funny people and he's like hey there's something I need to tell you that I've never told you before and I'm Mike okay, and I'm thinking there's like a joke coming and he says. Ah, yeah I have the spiritual gift of prophecy and I just have never told you that and I'm like okay you know, still waiting for like what's the punchline of this joke and he's like yeah it is like the way it works for me is god gives me something like a prophetic word to say to someone. And I may or may not understand it but like obedience for for me is to deliver the message that I feel like god has given me to the person and I'm like okay and so like this whole thing I'm like where is this going and he's like and I feel like god has a message for you.
25:00.71
forestandtrees
Ah.
25:09.30
Jeremy
Mike all right and he's like you're running from your calling I'm like what do you What do you mean and he's like yeah you're running from your calling like you're supposed to go and do this like you're supposed to go in a ministry and I was like no, that's my dad's thing and he's like no, it's it's your thing like god's telling you. It's your thing and you're running from it. And if you if you run from it here's how this is gonna go play out and so he literally sets out this like like alternate universe of the depending on the choice I make here how this will play out and he's like if you go tasu and you don't go to min right now you're gonna you're gonna get all the things that you want. You're going to go be very successful in business. You're going to go do well, you're going to make lots of lots of money and all these things that you think you want right now you're going to get them and I'm like this sounds amazing. Thank you like this is exactly what I want and he's like but you'll never be happy with that and you're always going to wonder what? if.
26:01.10
forestandtrees
Um.
26:05.29
Jeremy
And so you're going to start getting more and more involved at at church as like a volunteer and then you're goingnna realize that god's given you unique gifts and a lot of those gifts can be used to serve the church and so because you're not serving the church. You're gonna be drawn into it and then more and more you're gonna want to. Do that and then eventually you're gonna quit your your you know company or whatever and you're gonna go and do this like lays this whole thing out and I'm like what and he's like or you can just save yourself a bunch of time and go and do what god's asking you to do right now and I was like okay. And so he's like all I'm asking you to do is pray about it Mike all right I I can do that and I literally left that lunch thinking. There's no way this is true. This is bizarre and as I prayed about it I just got this sense of like peace like yeah, that's right like that's what you should be doing like let's let's go for it. And so I ended up not going to au I already have my roommates at this point ended up totally changing gears went into ministry and here's interesting I would say I felt that same call on my life in ministry until I resigned as a lead pastor in Oregon. And when I resigned I felt this sense of god releasing me from the call I got when I was a senior in high school like a very clear like connect the dots like it began here and now I'm releasing you from this in the sense of you don't have to spend this next season of your life.
27:25.40
forestandtrees
Oh.
27:37.92
Jeremy
In you know, full time ministry the way you were but I would say that was definitely vocationally something god wanted for me and has profoundly shaped my life and I would say absolutely is because of a prophetic conversation someone had so I would say that the. The way we often describe prophecy is not actually the way most it's mostly used even in the scriptures. It's not this fortune telling you know. So even the way my friend used it with me I would say it wasn't necessarily him predicting the future. It was a prophetic word to me of like hey there's something. Needs to be said in this moment almost like cutting through you know something like I gotta get this to you otherwise you may not make this choice right now and actually what's been very interesting is since all that I would say like. 1 of the gifts that I most deeply resonate with personally is the gift of prophecy and the way it works for me is not at all like it worked for the pastor and it's not at all fortune telling the way it works for me is I so clearly sense like this is what needs to be said right now and no one else is saying it. Like that's what it looks like for me like you need to say this and no one else is gonna say it and usually I know if I actually follow through on that it's going to cost me something like it's going to hurt and so this is not like a woo so grateful for this gift I get to you know.
29:08.62
Jeremy
I have to gift to prophecy and you know makes me an old testament Prophet. No, it's like this thing hurts and I could just tell you sort of story of this sense I get of like you need to say this and it's like ah if I say this this is gonna go poorly and you know it usually does in the short term.
29:15.81
forestandtrees
Um.
29:28.41
Jeremy
Like people don't want to hear it but you read the old testament prophets that is how prophecy often works like they would tell like hey here's some like you need to say and man it didn't go well for them and there's a book that I love that I would say strikes. Like something accordd with me on a soul level more than probably any other book I've ever read outside of the bible. It's called the prophetic imagination by Walter Brugerman I discovered this book 2017 I've read it 9 times since then now I read it 3 times a year because I I just deeply resonant with it. But I want to read a part of what he describes as the prophetic imagination because it's not the hey fortune telling it's something different here's what Walter Breyman says the task of prophetic imagination and ministry is to bring to public expression those very hopes and yearnings. Have been denied so long and suppressed so deeply that we no longer know they are there I love that way of thinking out is you are you are bringing ah to expression. That which has been buried beneath the service. The thing that people need to feel need to think need to express. But for whatever reason it gets pushed down the role of the prophet is to connect to that to bring that out to fan that flame and allow that message to be heard or dealt with or whatever.
30:58.13
Jeremy
And so I actually love this I Do agree with you. It's totally supernatural because you can't do this without without the presence of God but this has been profound in my own Ministry Journey and has been profound in how I've lived out my ministry especially since Then. So. Curious and how that lands to you is that super super bizarre to you or what do you think.
31:25.29
forestandtrees
All right? So do you have a more specific story about a fulfilled Prophecy ah narrow things. Seriously thank you for sharing that I think you've shared this story before ah probably when I asked you on a different episode about Um, what was like when you felt called or something like that because I remember this story.
31:38.58
Jeremy
Um, yeah.
31:42.24
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, it's it's Interesting. So like even when I was like asking you this question I was thinking about there's kind of different definitions of Prophecy There's the predicting The future thing that I alluded to in my question but there's also kind of the the speaking truth to power definition of Prophecy which is more like what you're practicing now. Is that right? but I suppose both Um, both of them have the element of like there's a supernatural component of like God speaking into like telling you what to say whether that's for the future or the present. Um, yeah I don't I don't know the I mean it.
32:02.33
Jeremy
Um, yeah.
32:16.59
Jeremy
Ah.
32:21.77
forestandtrees
Is definitely a cool story. Obviously it's like very personally resonant with you. It's It's not very satisfying in terms of like proving the Prophecy is real because basically it's like this guy convinces you to make a career change and I can even see like the imagination element to it of like he sort of like invited you to imagine this dark future.
32:34.91
Jeremy
Ah.
32:41.76
forestandtrees
Where you become like ah ah well no, you darken the sense of why you have all that. Yeah, exactly this dark in the sense of you have you? You know you have all the money in the world. But you know money can't buy me love so you know versus like the the path that you chose which was the the path of becoming a man of god.
32:43.12
Jeremy
Knows a bright future is you're gonna get everything you want.
33:01.17
forestandtrees
You know? Ah yeah I don't know it's It's a cool story I have not read the book The prophetic imagination I Know you've brought it up multiple times and I should read it Sometimes we can talk about it because just the idea of like the idea of um.
33:13.69
Jeremy
Don't worry I won't guilt you if you don't read it.
33:20.45
forestandtrees
Using your imagination to see what God is telling you you know like when I was a Christian I used to think of those types of things as this really cool deep mysterious spiritual Practice. You know now now as a nonbeliever. It seems like religion is kind of like. Giving itself away by saying like you have to just like imagine God is talking to you and then God talks to you? Um, So but but again I should read the book and I'm I'm sure he has a lot more smarter things to say than what I just said.
33:48.45
Jeremy
Well I don't I don't think anything in the book would convince you or change your mind on anything because you know fundamentally yeah you either believe if you don't believe God exists then there there will be no prophecy that would even make sense and you know I think what you're asking for is is there a sign.
33:55.66
forestandtrees
Um.
34:07.44
Jeremy
Right? You're not asking for ah really Prophecy you're saying prove to me that someone can predict the future and it come true and then you can verify it which I mean maybe that's happened I don't know but to me it's like that's that's like the most base level of what Prophecy could be if.
34:08.76
forestandtrees
Um.
34:17.40
forestandtrees
Yeah.
34:25.48
Jeremy
Hey tomorrow this is gonna happen and and you know now you're getting into how does how does the future happen. What does God's role in the future. How does God know the future which you know I'm very interested on. We've touched on number of points. But I I don't know I think I think there's no way you could explain.
34:35.62
forestandtrees
Um.
34:44.90
Jeremy
That gift because of the supernatural element where it doesn't sound weird to someone who doesn't believe in god.
34:50.92
forestandtrees
Yeah I Yeah I get what you're saying like so you're saying basically I'm asking for I'm asking for a sign like a proof like something verifiable of like if you could make a prediction of like this is going to happen tomorrow and then that would be.
35:02.64
Jeremy
Correct.
35:07.39
forestandtrees
Would be like a really definitive way to prove god is real or earliest prophecy is real but I but it's like but I mean it is a really important part of the story of Jesus right of like multiple gospels.
35:10.66
Jeremy
But to me like that's not the real the role of Prophecy is like hey we're gonna show off how how good God knows the future. Yeah.
35:26.80
forestandtrees
Make a point of saying this fulfilled the prophecy of like who'd be a lamb to be slaughtered and and things like that. You know what I mean.
35:32.28
Jeremy
So that what's interesting about that is a lot of time you know in the prophecy of the old testament. It's you know it's God prophesying things God's going to do right? which is a totally different way of understanding like I can prophesy things that I'm going to do tomorrow that wouldn't impress you.
35:44.16
forestandtrees
Um.
35:48.33
forestandtrees
Oh.
35:51.92
Jeremy
Like if I said hey tomorrow I'm gonna eat lunch at at noon I'm prophesying it right now and then I call you tomorrow and I facetime you at noon I go see I told you I'm eating at noon right? It's a sign you go? Yeah, but you you prophesied what you're gonna do like.
35:54.69
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, proved it? Yeah yeah.
36:08.49
Jeremy
Most of the Prophecy you see in scripture is God Prophesying here's what I'm going to do which is funny like if we did that you wouldn't find it impressive but we do find it impressive because it happens right? and I would say it happens because God knows I'm going to go do that and so that also reveals part of how God interacts with the future of like I can say.
36:09.50
forestandtrees
Um.
36:27.96
Jeremy
You know, hey this is going to happen tomorrow with a high probability. You know I'm going to eat lunch at twelve fifteen tomorrow and if I want it to happen that way I can literally work my schedule around where god willing I wake up I can have lunch at 12 you know I mean like. That's not that sign in of itself wouldn't wow you you wouldn't go. He did it. He he proved a prophecy and so to me like that's the like That's not what makes prophecy amazing what makes prophecy amazing is when things get buried down and then someone with a prophetic voice is able to.
36:46.15
forestandtrees
Ah.
37:01.83
Jeremy
Bring it out and bring something to the surface or speak truth to power or you know like oh yeah, we were all wondering that or thinking that and someone was willing to say it and then the room shifts and the dynamic shifts. And yeah, there's always gonna be ah, an atheistic explanation for this and I think your explanation is plausible.
37:18.86
forestandtrees
I.
37:20.48
Jeremy
Right? He planted a seed in my imagination and there's no way to verify your point. There's no way to verify my point. So both of us We we get back to where we started right? We doesn't prove anything either way I Just know you know as I have experienced God that resonated with me seemed like it.
37:27.84
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
37:39.23
Jeremy
Was valid and again even then he because I you were deluding yourself and I wouldn't be able to prove to you otherwise but that that's I don't know any other way to experience God with any sense of certainty. There's always that element of mystery and you know I hope I'm always humble enough to say Yeah maybe I got it wrong? Maybe I.
37:44.94
forestandtrees
Um.
37:54.61
forestandtrees
And.
37:57.47
Jeremy
Maybe I got carried up in the moment sure but the way it's played out in my life has been very interesting to watch and I would say in in my estimation adds validity to it but again not in a sense that would convince convince an atheist. Otherwise.
38:11.22
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, sure, no that that's good I I guess like another ah way to to kind of frame it as is hindsight bias you know because I mean I I have these thoughts all the time of like what would have happened if I hadn't gone to this school you know or or like hadn't taken this job and you know went moved to this state instead of the State. You know. And I think that's a very common just human feeling of like I made a bunch of mistakes in life. But I'm so grateful for where I'm at now see so I've got to say it all worked out so it's like everything happened for a reason but you know there's no way to know like maybe maybe if I would have made a different decision back then things would have been even better now.
38:42.70
Jeremy
Sure right? Well, that's why I think using Prophecy as a sign to prove God is probably not helpful like I I don't think you're gonna convince anyone like that to me is not the role of Prophecy you know and so.
38:50.87
forestandtrees
But yeah.
39:01.50
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah and I guess another element is kind of like the end times prophecies like I feel like that's just caused so much confusion throughout.
39:01.91
Jeremy
I Don't think any story of Prophecy you'd go Wow Now I believe like I still think it's going to convince you if you don't already believe.
39:17.35
forestandtrees
I mean christian culture in particular but is humanity of like just the fact like when Jesus says there will be wars and rumors of wars. It just seems like the most vague like safe prediction possible. It's like I predict in the next hundred years there will be political chaos and there's probably going to be a war 2
39:35.98
Jeremy
Don't you know that Tim Lehay figured all that out Jeff he mapped it all out. There's there's books you can. You can just read the left behind books and they'll it'll answer all your questions.
39:36.70
forestandtrees
Like and ah yeah, yeah.
39:44.25
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I don't know I mean I can get behind I mean I have an appreciation for the more the more mysterious flavor of the more subdued flavor of Prophecy you know that's it seems to make more sense to me than the specific. Prophecies that get fulfilled.
40:05.69
Jeremy
Yeah I don't know we'll we'll see so I'm curious as as you you know we're reading that list. Ah as someone who was in the church not in the church anymore as you look at this list. We'll just keep it to this list. Do you resonate personally with any of the 7 gifts mentioned and if yes has there ever been a spiritual component to it and you know did that change as you change what you believe or would you say you know hey these are universal enough where.
40:21.66
forestandtrees
Um.
40:38.10
Jeremy
You know I had mercy before now I have mercy still afterward or you know is it a personality trait or how do you view this in your own journey with christianantity.
40:41.73
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, that's interesting as I was thinking about that like I mean like I already said I feel like verses 2 or list 2 through 7 are just universal like non controversial like good things you know like. When I was a christian I thought I should be serving more serving is a good thing. Not I'm not anymore I still think yeah serving is a good thing I should dedicate more time to serving people I say that the 2 that have really that I've changed my thinking on. Um, since since leaving the faith are giving and leadership giving. Just. Like we talked about before like I used to believe like very specifically It's good to be generous, but the first ten percent of your own companies. Go to your local church and then any kind of charitable giving you want to do after that is the overflow and so I've changed my thinking on that and just like not there's anything wrong with giving in the church. But.
41:26.23
Jeremy
In he.
41:36.95
forestandtrees
If I only have so much money to be generous with I don't know that that the local church is like the most efficient bang for your buck compared to other charities and then the other one is leadership in that I would still say like generically leadership is a good virtuous thing.
41:45.31
Jeremy
Right.
41:55.88
forestandtrees
But when I think about leadership and its connection to the church and just like my experience with the church and the way it celebrates leadership elevates charismatic leaders who are prone to corruption prone to let the power go to their head and then use their leadership to abuse other people. I just I have a lot more icky feelings with just the way that the church tends to promote leadership as this just incredibly important thing you know I mean like so the the story of Mark Driscoll of course comes to mind the in the whole. Podcast rise and fall of mars sale I feel like is just this classic example of someone who the church elevated this guy because they said maybe he's got some character flaws but he's such a strong leader and leadership is so important that we're gonna you know we're gonna give this guy a platform and I mean I worked at a church that that always. Attended the global leadership summit and they just treated leadership like they put just the concept of leadership on this huge pedestal as if it's it's such an important thing they want to encourage everyone as a leader and again I think there's there's a way to view that positively of like everyone's a leader.
43:00.44
Jeremy
Um, no.
43:09.63
forestandtrees
But also it had such a corporate Ceo um bent to it that I always felt like was didn't really align with the values of christianity and of course ah the leadership summit had its own scandal with a leader who what turned out to be abusive and they decided to kind of just.
43:25.88
Jeremy
Right.
43:29.46
forestandtrees
Barry that story and continue on with the conference which which also bothered me. So yeah, very just very mixed thoughts on leadership because of my experience in the church and christian culture.
43:39.19
Jeremy
So did you ever feel like you had 1 of those gifts.
43:46.78
forestandtrees
Ah, one of these gifts in particular, let's see and.
43:47.49
Jeremy
Yeah, like I'm saying like think back to like when you were a Christian would you have looked at this list and gone. Oh you know, serving's my thing like that's the one god gave me.
43:59.51
forestandtrees
Yeah I I suppose I would say that ah from this list like maybe serving was the one that was like put on my heart because I would always think about like the idea of like you know what? what am I doing like working at church like the real ministry should be. Going out in the street and like helping people like isn't that a more immediate response to like what Jesus is talking about most of the time and so like maybe I don't know maybe that was just ah, a kind of like guilt manifesting in my own mind or maybe this was like the the holy spirit like. Putting this burden on my heart I don't know I remember taking the spiritual gifts test and the the result was knowledge of the word was the idea that just I'm knowledgeable about the bible and I can use that so you know I've you know the the jokes on yeah, the jokes on you because i'm.
44:49.38
Jeremy
Look at look at you now.
44:54.97
forestandtrees
Turning the weapons against you as they say? Yeah, ah.
44:57.67
Jeremy
That's hilarious I I do think the list is interesting your your observation that 2 through 7 are are kind of like universally accepted I think is a very valid observation and and is an interesting thought to me. You know it reminds me of like you know and like companies come up with their core values and they're like the most obvious like like no company would ever disagree with that value. You know I mean like that can't be really what makes you unique like that is a like a universal.
45:14.46
forestandtrees
Um.
45:19.92
forestandtrees
Yeah, exactly.
45:31.77
Jeremy
Like some of these do kind of feel you know a little bit like that with the exception of Prophecy I think you know on this list but ah I think it would be interesting to me if if I ever was in your shoes and I was like yeah I don't believe this anymore to then make sense of the prophecy thing would be like Okay, so.
45:40.95
forestandtrees
Um, and even and.
45:50.92
Jeremy
Does that just go away and that was never you know I think you'd have to conclude. It was never real right? because like otherwise how would I keep using that gift if I didn't believe in you know it would you'd have to just kind of dismiss the whole thing so that's why I'd be curious like how do you do serving today. You can keep doing that right? but you've disconnected it from.
45:56.23
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
46:01.70
forestandtrees
Or or if you.
46:10.40
Jeremy
Relationship with god.
46:12.00
forestandtrees
Well unless you interpret Prophecy as ah, speaking truth to power you know in that case, you could you can have like a secular understanding of you know you could say like.
46:16.41
Jeremy
I Get yes true.
46:23.62
forestandtrees
Greta Thurnberg is is a profit of today because of her activism on on climate change. You know? No oh thanks. Ah, cool. Well let's let's move on to the final question here. We've got this whole.
46:26.89
Jeremy
Um, yeah, wanna get behind that I like that.
46:42.67
forestandtrees
Last section. Ah Paul has a lot to say about concepts of love forgiveness retaliation. So let me read a verse 17 never payback evil with more evil verse eighteen do all that you can to live in peace with everyone. Romans 1220 is quoting proverbs twenty five here if your enemies are hungry feed them if they're thirsty, give them something to drink in doing this. You will hurt heap burning coals of shame on their heads which is ah an interesting turn of phrase that's kind of open to interpretation. Yeah there.
47:18.62
Jeremy
It's quite a loaded sentence. Yeah.
47:21.40
forestandtrees
Very loaded implications. There. It's interesting and then finally verse 21 don't let evil conquer you but conquer evil by doing good. So like the list we were just talking about this value of choosing love over hate choosing forgiveness. Choosing nonviolence even is something that I really resonate with I think that's like a beautiful value that that christianity has and is sadly like doesn't seem to be embraced very widely. Um, but it's something I really believe and I really believe like that you know if there is any way that we can get. Like peace on earth that's this is how we have to get there by choosing love over hate and of course I know that that's like hopelessly naive and it's not pragmatically attainable in the real world. You know when you you can only talk this way for so long before someone just calls you like. Ah, dirty hippie who hasn't like seen enough experience enough of the hard side of life. So I should acknowledge I'm I'm speaking from a place of privilege right? I'm I live a very comfortable middle class life I'm not like living in a war torn country right now but I like to say I wanted to ask you about. This concept of nonviolence because I know it's something you're very passionate about as well Jeremy and in an earlier episode. You had mentioned if I didn't believe in Jesus I would not believe in nonviolence anymore. So you know I've I've been thinking about that for the past several weeks of you know I agree Jesus very clearly taught nonviolence. But there's also.
48:57.77
forestandtrees
Non-christians who are exemplars of Nonviolence Gandhi is probably the most famous example and there's also a lot of christians who in my view seem to be very proviolence like we were talking about earlier. There's a lot of ah people who are very nationalistic militaristic a real. Celebration of gun culture within christianity. So yeah, what? Why do you need Jesus to be nonviolent. That's my question for you.
49:29.10
Jeremy
Ah I think why we all need Jesus to be nonviolent is because the world is violent. You know and I I totally agree with you I probably nothing I believe gets more mocked and made fun of than this and I mostly get made fun of it by christians.
49:35.85
forestandtrees
Um.
49:46.84
Jeremy
Who look at me like yeah, how cute for you that you think that that this could be possible or ah, you know at the world work like this. Um and you know it's it to clarify I say because you I definitely piqued your interest with that that line that I said to other day cause you've brought up numerous times.
50:05.59
forestandtrees
Um.
50:06.66
Jeremy
I'm not saying if I didn't believe in Jesus I would go back to violence now what I'm saying is and this is the point I was trying to make I never would have got to a nonviolent point of view outside of Jesus like it was Jesus that got me there. That's how I changed my mind on on the thing so it wasn't because.
50:08.50
forestandtrees
And.
50:17.57
forestandtrees
Income.
50:24.60
Jeremy
I read something Gandhi wrote and it was so moving to me although I'm sure that could have happened it was because I studied Jesus and in particular you know I I think about like Matthew 5 and I want to read verses 43 through 48 because is what Jesus teaches that I think literally is the most.
50:27.47
forestandtrees
Um.
50:43.96
Jeremy
Ah, perhaps ignored thing that Jesus taught but also the most life changing if christians were to take this literally Matthew 48 says you have heard the law that says love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say love your enemies pray for those who persecute you. In that way, you will be acting as true children of your father in heaven. Basically this is how our family operates for he gives his sunlight god to both the evil and the good and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike meaning karma's not real. There is no, there's no thing like that. If. You only love those who love you what reward is there for that even corrupt tax collectors do that much if you are kind only to your friends. How are you different from anyone else even pagans do that but you are to be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect. Basically you are to be like your dad when it comes to this you you should share the family values of this. This is how our family operates I would just tell you I'm so drawn to this I'm so enamored with this this is like. Literally life altering history changing type stuff and the sad reality which you and I would quickly agree with is that most christians don't take this literally and you would not conclude. This would be inherently something Jesus taught if you watched many christians today right.
51:59.46
forestandtrees
For.
52:15.61
Jeremy
Which absolutely is to the utter failure of the collective church that we have disregarded Jesus' ' words here but I would just say this this is what makes Jesus 1 of the things but makes you so fascinating to me and so compelling to me and just draws me and of like I don't see this.
52:15.90
forestandtrees
Um.
52:35.61
Jeremy
Anywhere else like this is incredible. How far Jesus takes this and I remember I think it was my last trip I've been to Israel I think 4 different times something like that and I remember my last one we were in this meeting with a rabbi and listening this rabbi talk and you know it's just. We we weren't like trying to debate anything. It was just like understand you know the jewish point of view better than I did and so listening to this rabbi explained things and you know we're just gonna ask him questions and I remember getting the sense as he was talking about like the future of Israel and all this that he had no obligation.
53:00.77
forestandtrees
Ah.
53:12.95
Jeremy
He had to love his enemies like that was not a thing this Rabbi believed and it it may sound dumb but it was one of those like epiphanies for me I was like if all you go off of is the old testament. That's not a clear teaching right? and you could even say it's justified the opposite way.
53:26.40
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, right right.
53:31.18
Jeremy
Right? If you just use the old testament. It's really Jesus that is the the game changer on this and if you don't choose Jesus right? Which modern day jews would say no, that's not the messiah then you have no reason to say necessarily. We're gonna love our enemies because why like why? Why would we believe that you know. And this is one of the ones I just go this is this has gotta be 1 of the most unique things about christianity and the saddest realityity to me is that christians are not known for this and in fact, you reference Gandhi Gandhi once had this famous quote. The only people on earth.
54:07.72
forestandtrees
Um.
54:09.10
Jeremy
Who do not see Christ and his teachings as nonviolent are christians and that's like the most damnable statement about christians and it was Ghana he was like look can you guys read Matthew five like you're the only ones who walk away and are convinced god wants you to have more guns.
54:12.16
forestandtrees
Yeah now.
54:28.79
Jeremy
And and somehow this has become all a part of the christian culture today you know in America and I was at I'll keep this story vague I was at something their day. You know someone was selling at this new company and they're like um.
54:46.86
Jeremy
John what it was like some new coffee company and they're like yeah, it's it's gonna be amazing. It's you know guns god and coffee you know in in no in no particular order and I was like like the fact that that just seems like such a normal guns god and copy like like I would go.
54:58.37
forestandtrees
Um, ah.
55:06.65
Jeremy
1 of those is inherently out of place right? like and it's not the coffee or god ah, but it was said to me like they knew I was a christian like of course you're gonna automatically resonate with this idea because you're a Christian like you you must love guns and I just hate that part.
55:10.78
forestandtrees
What.
55:24.76
Jeremy
Of christianity like I hate that I get associated with oh you're you're a Christian like of course then you love guns like we love guns. It's like no I I don't now here's the weird part is I was raised with the love of guns and I I own guns and I've shared that story you know and it was studying this passage where you know.
55:34.38
forestandtrees
Ah.
55:37.88
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.
55:44.60
Jeremy
Someone just asked me to consider like what does it really mean to love your enemies and can you love an enemy if you're willing to put a bullet in them and it's like no if I'm willing to take your life I'm I'm not I'm literally living contrary to that and so you know I. I agree with you I live in a very sheltered environment. So. It's easy for me to say this but you know I got rid of my guns so that in the event that I was threatened and scared I wouldn't even have them available to use anymore because I suspect in a moment of weakness I would want to and so all I know how to do is say I.
56:20.25
forestandtrees
Ah.
56:22.10
Jeremy
Believe this is something better and I want that to be what I would choose in that moment and I think this is a game changer and the reality the the reason it's a game changer is because we live in a very violent world that thinks you know Pax Romana is the idea of Roman peace. Rome only brought peace because rome had a bigger army and so that peace only worked as long as rome's army was in control and this is how most christians think we have peace today through America. Well let's pax Romana. It's only peace as long as our military is the strongest It's not real peace.
56:43.57
forestandtrees
Um.
56:58.90
Jeremy
Because all we're trying to say is we'll beat violence with bigger violence and more violence and this is what Jesus said like that escalates violence it doesn't you know you know this is romans twelve even like we're not fighting evil with evil we're fighting evil with good There's something different and so this is where I would say christians this is our chance to change the way we think. Let's try to literally take Jesus seriously in Matthew five here and go hey I think this is gonna make sense and this will play a ton into romans thirteen next week so I'm very passionate about this if you can figure this out I think we've missed it on this one.
57:31.96
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, thank you I Love that I'm passionate about it too I Totally agree like when the idea of like do not repay Evil with evil it. It makes me think of the debate we have around mass shootings you know in this country We have a huge problem with the gun culture in this country.
57:48.84
Jeremy
Yep.
57:51.45
forestandtrees
And we have so many people who are making the argument saying the only solution to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun and then there's other people who are making the argument that I think the best thing we can do is have as little guns as possible and most of those people from from what I've seen anecdotally. Are not the christians. So I guess that's just something that that bothered me like again I 100 % agree with you on the the philosophy I've turned the other cheek. Love your enemies this this is the way we achieve peace and yeah I'm I'm deeply disappointed in the fruit that I see.
58:10.34
Jeremy
Help.
58:29.65
forestandtrees
Within christian culture. You know like they say like you will know a tree by its fruits that that was part of like when I was living a crisis of faith and thinking about like I used to like when I had this huge crisis about the evangelical cultures embrace of Trump. 16 I was I was surprised by it. It. It didn't make any sense to me I thought like this this character seems so different from the character of Jesus why are people into that and then eventually I got to the point where I was like but those people who love Trump are way more Jesus C than me, you know they've got Jesus on their. Bathroom wall. You know they've got bible verses all over their home. They pray more than me they read the bible more than me so you know who am I to say that this is the way of Jesus and the the moral majority is not and I think that that also translates to the the gun culture. But I see.
59:25.19
Jeremy
Well and again this goes back to. Okay, so let's go to romans 12 to let god transform you into a new person by changing the way you think and then it goes on to say ah you know bless those who persec this is all this is all chapter 12 not not in.
59:36.32
forestandtrees
Um.
59:42.63
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's fair game. Yeah.
59:42.66
Jeremy
Matthew 5 Demar this is all just our chapter today. Ah bless those who persecute you don't curse them pray that god will bless them. Never pay back evil with more evil do all, you can to live in peace with everyone never take revenge I mean if your enemies are hungry feed them with their thirsty gives them a drink and then don't let evil conquer you but conquer evil by doing good. Like this is like Paul's literally now giving you a chance hey change the way you think oh never I'll show you how to do that like we're gonna love our enemies. That's how we're gonna do it and I think most christians read this are like na I'm good I'm gonna put bible verses on my wall instead like no, no, no like Paul's literally
01:00:11.78
forestandtrees
Um.
01:00:21.70
Jeremy
Giving you away to change what you think and you might go well what was Paul talking about you know and in in verse two and he says change change the way I think about what I don't know let's go on to see what he talks about right after that you know I mean like this is it.
01:00:33.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, but that but they can but the conservative gun nuts could just preach the same thing to us right? They could say we need to change the way we think and buy more guns. You know what? I mean it works It works both ways. Yeah well you know old old testament at least.
01:00:43.36
Jeremy
But I would say show me that show me that in the text. Okay, what So we're out of Romans Now this is a Romans podcast come on. You can't can't do that.
01:00:51.95
forestandtrees
For sure. Yeah, okay, um, let's see I mean another thing I wanted to just acknowledge because this is something that I've held to for many years and the 2 the 2 biggest kind of. Like recent historical moments that have really given me pause were when when the Us pulled out of Afghanistan and ah the current war in Ukraine that we're seeing right now I mean to take like Ukraine specifically you know this is this is a case where people are just living they go from just living their lives to. Being violently oppressed by a neighboring force and that you know this is where it really the whole nonviolence philosophy really challenges me because what? what like who am I to say these people should just just die in their home or just flee like who am I to say they can't. Retaliate and defend their homeland um, yeah I don't know and so I like I wonder if you would say like that's where christianity has some kind of edge because it promises people if they behave nonviolently then they'll be rewarded in the afterlife or something like that because you know that that's something that. Is is the problem with Nonviolence is like it only really works if everyone agrees to it at the same time and it seems like that's not going to happen anytime soon.
01:02:14.79
Jeremy
Well, here's the way I would say it. There is no guaranteed formula on any end of the spectrum. Okay, so here's here's an argument I get often? Oh so someone breaks into your house. You've you've gotten rid of your guns way to go. There's now no way you can defend your family. Okay, that's that's an argument I get a lot to which I would say no, you're assuming the only way I can defend my family is by trying to kill an intruder I could try to stop them without killing them right? I could try to use my words I could invite the Holy spirit to creatively come up with some other solution Now. There's no guarantee.
01:02:33.54
forestandtrees
Um.
01:02:52.17
Jeremy
I absolutely agree with that like there's no guarantee I may lose absolutely but here's the kicker that we don't often point out. Let's say you're the guy that's got 20 guns and you're like never going to happen to me. Okay, what if there are more intruders than there are of you.
01:02:58.47
forestandtrees
Um.
01:03:10.81
Jeremy
And they outshoot you The the end result is exactly the same exactly the same so you can't guarantee in that situation that you would for sure have the upper hand and you would shoot better than they could shoot and they were you know you couldn't guarantee that either and so we have to acknowledge we live in a world.
01:03:17.69
forestandtrees
Ah.
01:03:30.20
Jeremy
You cannot guarantee the outcome either way. Even if you say I'm committed to violence unless you always have the upper hand which historically no one always has the upper hand right? that changes Ebbs and flows. You can't guarantee it and so.
01:03:42.85
forestandtrees
Ah.
01:03:46.29
Jeremy
I think what we're what we're acknowledging on a deeper level. This is a massive insecurity we have as humans that I would be vulnerable. My loved ones would be vulnerable and there's something inside of us like I don't ever want to feel that kind of vulnerability and the problem with it is. There's no way you can escape it. There's none. Like you could buy all the guns you want. You could have a a stock aid in your house. You cannot escape the the fact that there could be something that could go wrong that you wouldn't be able to you know right? to the challenge and you know take anything you want. Okay so you versus a swat team comes in I mean like you know I mean like. Go any extreme and the outcome could be the same you're betting on the fact that you think you could disarm someone or you could you know you could overpower them and maybe you could but I'm just saying I think Jesus is offering us something different and it doesn't mean it's gonna work every time and I think.
01:04:26.51
forestandtrees
Ah.
01:04:34.40
forestandtrees
Right.
01:04:45.54
Jeremy
Anyone committed to Nonviolence has to acknowledge that like I don't say I don't believe this because I think it's for sure gonna win. It might not win I Just believe this is the only thing that's gonna make the world better and you know Christians have been willing to die all throughout history and. I Think one of the most you know human things we could do is to acknowledge the vulnerability that exists and be real about it rather than pretending that we can have big enough guns to make it go away.
01:05:17.78
forestandtrees
Um, yeah again I am in violent agreement with you on all of that if you'll part in the pun. Um, yeah, yes, violence only begets more violence and I mean we you know we even see this with the presence of nuclear weapons right? The fact that. We're we're in this perpetual standoff because we have enough firepower to just wipe out the entire planet at any time you know and you would think that would be enough to just say like okay we tried violence. No more. This is not the right way to solve the world's problems and then somehow humanity persisted. And it's found creative ways to continue to be more violent. Um, but find ways to to perpetuate violent on the ground wars without resorting to nukes so that the fighting can continue. Um, okay, so just 1 more thing I wanted to ask you have have you studied jainism.
01:06:07.27
Jeremy
Right.
01:06:13.99
Jeremy
No.
01:06:14.36
forestandtrees
Or giantism. This are you familiar with this religion. It's kind of a offshoot of hinduism predates christianity by several thousand years it's it's like the ultimate nonviolent religion I would say in the sense that um, it's it's participants like are. Their number 1 tenant is commit. No violence to ah any other living thing so that obviously not hurting or killing other humans but to the extent that of course they're vegetarian. They don't eat meat but they also wear a cloth over their faces so that they they don't accidentally swallow any bugs. The the particularly pious people will so sweep the ground in front of them so they don't step on bugs or anything so you know it's and in today's culture it's a pretty niche kind of corner of it's it's kind of an offshoot of hinduism and buddhism because they believe in in reincarnation and all that. But anyway, just just that just say like that these types of things make me think that perhaps there are other like philosophies out there like Jesus was not the first one to come up with this idea that we need to be nonviolent.
01:07:28.31
Jeremy
Okay I didn't say he was the first one.
01:07:30.21
forestandtrees
Okay, okay, is that but okay I guess like that does that give you pause at all because I mean that combined with the fact that we have so many violent christians in the world that doesn't give you pause or make you question like what's going on here.
01:07:46.61
Jeremy
No.
01:07:50.80
forestandtrees
Oh okay.
01:07:53.73
Jeremy
Ah I mean I don't know how it to say do no and I I think Jesus is the most compelling version of it I think Gandhi's also very compelling. You know it's like but Jesus taught it modeled it died for us and I think Jesus also happened to be god. So yeah i.
01:07:54.57
forestandtrees
Oh.
01:08:02.29
forestandtrees
Um.
01:08:10.17
Jeremy
Whatever for religion I don't know how you say it? Whatever religion you said? Yeah I like that they're nonviolent I don't want to go study them and go sweet bugs. You know like that I would say okay, maybe you're I like the spirit behind it. But that seems rather intense. You know Jesus is talking about how we treat.
01:08:25.70
forestandtrees
E.
01:08:29.72
Jeremy
People and and I think modeled it and sacrificed for people other than retaliate and that to me is really compelling.
01:08:37.88
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's it's compelling to me too I guess it's just it's maddening that you know because Jesus is so popular you know I mean like everybody loves Jesus even non-christians love Jesus but and yeah.
01:08:48.55
Jeremy
Well, but there's a bazillion versions of Jesus right? There's there's the hobby lobby version that we love to talk about. You know there's that's the problem like there's not many Matthew 48 versions of Jesus that are popular and that's where I'm going.
01:08:55.75
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:09:05.10
forestandtrees
Um.
01:09:07.17
Jeremy
I Think we should take this this part literal like and and I I'm in a minority I acknowledge like to the shame of christianity I'm in a minority there because most Christians would not agree with that.
01:09:10.77
forestandtrees
Um.
01:09:22.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, okay, ah turn to think of how to how to wrap this up here. Oh I get I guess one one other thing as I was thinking about the fact that um, violence you know the call for nonviolence is is potentially a call for. Self-sacrifice. It brought me all the way back to verse one of romans 12 of presenting your bodies as living sacrifices. Um, just just another thought when I was thinking about you know what are the implications of nonviolent resistance whether whether for the sake of of christianity and you're like. Sacrificing yourself as a missionary or something or some other political movement where you're committed to trying to get results without resorting to violence so again just to say something positive about I think romans twelve has a lot of really great philosophy. A lot of really great. Ideas here I guess I would argue. They're not completely unique, but you know I think the fact that so many people love jesus is is a compelling reason why we should embrace this philosophy and see if we can get more people on board. But yeah I don't know if it's going to happen.
01:10:33.83
Jeremy
Well if if someone does love Jesus and you can point them here then you know I'm hopeful that you go hey let me let me tell you what he taught like and then you see him model it like he lived it right? you know and and so I am I'm hopeful and again I change my mind on this. So.
01:10:49.60
forestandtrees
Um.
01:10:53.23
Jeremy
I know what it feels like to be a pro-violent Christian and think that that's the way the world works and then to realize yeah, that's not actually what Jesus was talking about and so I've changed my mind and I try to leave space for others wherever they're at and again most of my friends are not where I'm at. And you know we can lovingly joke about they'll say things like well you know I'm not where you are with the gun thing and you know always preface it with that and it's like yeah, it's not a condition of being my friend but I'm still gonna try to point you to this beautiful picture of Jesus that I see and I think is a better way better way to to. Live our lives and I think it would make the world better.
01:11:34.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, and I agree with you Jeremy that's I think that's the the best way we have to make the world a better place all right any other any other closing thoughts. Do you feel like we had ah a pretty peaceful discussion about nonviolence here.
01:11:49.97
Jeremy
I Do I mean the hard part of this one is you and I do agree on this one So this is this is part of our ah agreement.
01:11:54.18
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, maybe we should get Maybe we should get a pro violence advocate on this show so they compound us into submission.
01:12:07.81
Jeremy
Don't worry I'll get lots of them when I post clips of this this week on online. Oh I will get plenty of them telling me that this is laughable and I've yeah I've gotten the reaction enough to know so.
01:12:10.64
forestandtrees
Oh right? You think so is this all right is the Prophecy is is this going to come true.
01:12:22.51
Jeremy
Fear Not my friend that those comments will be coming I'm prophetically saying it.
01:12:30.27
forestandtrees
All right? Well an enlightening discussion as always. Thanks Jeremy this is this is beautiful stuff. We're talking about I'll I'll say it again. You know whatever you believe I think you could read romans twelve and get a lot out of it. Great great chapter of the bible. Yeah.
01:12:46.10
Jeremy
It's good stuff.
01:12:49.90
forestandtrees
Yeah, good stuff. Put it put it on the wall in your in your place of work see if you get any comments. Ah all right? Well thanks for listening. We'll we'll be in romans thirteen next week Jeremy will watch pig at some point we'll talk about that beautiful picture of nonviolence and. We'll all live in utopian harmony see you then.