Jeremy and Jef further discuss the distinction between the Person and the Principles of Jesus. We also explore idolatry, God making people jealous, whether or not Jeremy is ignoring the mean parts of God, and whether Jef can withdraw God's gifts for his life.
Topics
The Person or the Principles of Jesus?
What’s so bad about Idolatry?
Is God a Jealous Lover?
Is Jeremy just ignoring the hard parts of scripture?
Is Jef still being called by God?
Book Reference
The Supper of the Lamb By Robert Capon
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
Jeremy and Jef further discuss the distinction between the Person and the Principles of Jesus. We also explore idolatry, God making people jealous, whether or not Jeremy is ignoring the mean parts of God, and whether Jef can withdraw God's gifts for his life.
Topics
The Person or the Principles of Jesus?
What’s so bad about Idolatry?
Is God a Jealous Lover?
Is Jeremy just ignoring the hard parts of scripture?
Is Jef still being called by God?
Book Reference
The Supper of the Lamb By Robert Capon
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
00:00.00
Jeremy
Welcome to the forests and the trees I'm Jeremy and I'm joined today by my friend. Jeff.
00:08.10
forestandtrees
Jeremy if we were in the same room together I would give you a sloppy wet kiss but but I don't I don't want to make anyone jealous. So let's make sure the kiss is unforeseen. Okay.
00:12.81
Jeremy
Woof Wow! That's that one's loaded.
00:21.20
Jeremy
Oh gosh you're I bringing up some dicey christian culture there Jeff this might be some ptsd for some listeners I feel like we should have had a trigger warning before before this episode that song is bringing back. Maybe some hurtful memories.
00:27.56
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, Chris.
00:37.20
forestandtrees
Yeah, but the song the song is so rooted in theological principles right? I was trying to think of like when I think about god being a jealous god because this this chapter deals a lot with god's jealousy, you know and this I couldn't I couldn't get that song out of my mind and the controversy therein. Plus um, a little bit later in Romans Paul even tells. Um, commands us to greet each other with with the holy kiss so it's biblical in that sense too.
01:03.33
Jeremy
Now is the is it the crowder version that's in your head or which version.
01:09.92
forestandtrees
Ah I'm I'm not sure who the artist is honestly because it was like it was just the worship band at my my local church that played it and I remember like seeing the transition of the sloppy. What Kiss it was like kind of an awkward lyric that was somewhat controversial so later they changed to dun for scene. That was that was kind of how I saw the drama play out is that how you remember it.
01:29.75
Jeremy
Ah, yeah I think it started started sloppy wet kiss and I can't remember if was it like John Mark Mcmillan or something wrote the song I can't even this is off top my head this is this is not in my notes I wasn't prepared for this. Ah so I think.
01:40.77
forestandtrees
Same yeah I didn't even I didn't even bother to look up who the artist was I just I just know it is like kind of a a generic like worship song that like every worship band played for a while.
01:47.19
Jeremy
The first line. Yeah, they get started with sloppy wet kiss and then some people are like uncomfortable with god doing that. So then it became an unforeseen kiss and you know I for one I always get with the sloppy wet kiss you know.
01:55.33
forestandtrees
Too too many people complained. Yeah.
02:06.58
Jeremy
I got kids I know what a sloppy wet Kiss looks like.
02:07.72
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, for sure I I have dogs and sometimes it can be us a slobbery wet lick. You know that's that's happened to me before. Okay.
02:12.22
Jeremy
Wow.
02:18.87
Jeremy
Oh gosh on on that note, let's let's move on. Ah, okay so today today we're gonna explore idolatry in the bible. It's fun. We're gonna explore god making people jealous with or without kissing.
02:30.62
forestandtrees
Um.
02:36.24
Jeremy
Or explore whether or not I'm ignoring the mean parts of god and whether Jeff can withdraw god's gifts for his life. All that coming at you today a couple verses I'd like to set the stage with versus 33 and 36 in chapter 11 paul says oh how great are god's riches and wisdom and knowledge for everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory all glory to him forever amen.
03:12.13
forestandtrees
Yeah, hes we got a a rich dad in the sky I like it where we're old money Jeremy it's a big big house. Lots and lots of room.
03:22.75
Jeremy
Oh no, no more christian controversy. You've already dived dove into the culture too much. You can't you can't bring up big big house that's too much that will that will will just explode our listeners. You can't you can't do that 1 episode speaking of our listeners. We did a little poll this week Jeff
03:30.86
forestandtrees
Okay I apologize. Okay.
03:42.38
Jeremy
And I think we're surprised by the results. Are we surprised what? what are we feeling with this.
03:46.17
forestandtrees
Well, we did I I am surprised? Yeah I honestly thought you were gonna win on this. You know, not that it's a competition but last week or last episode we got into a kind of an impromptu debate about like what's more important the person of Jesus you know you can probably guess which. Which of us thought the person was more important versus the the principles of Jesus is is what I said or typically I say the the um teachings of Jesus but I guess principles came out for for the alliteration. Perhaps but um, you know, very pastorally thing to.
04:14.53
Jeremy
Of course.
04:20.21
forestandtrees
We need to do the literation anyway, I just thought wow this is really interesting how we how we disagree here so I clipped it put it on social media and then did an Instagram poll also just just say if if you're listening to this and don't follow us on Instagram ah, please participate in the polls. That's one of my favorite things about our podcast in general I'd say is like that's a good way to. Engage with our listeners and kind of see you know check check the pulse on our listenership anyway. So that so that was the poll just um, two choices. What's more important the person of Jesus or the principles of Jesus and it was the 24 hour window where you can vote.
04:42.74
Jeremy
Yeah.
04:57.86
forestandtrees
14 votes on each side literally fifty fifty split so we've we've run the data and we're right back where we started from.
05:01.85
Jeremy
Um.
05:04.93
Jeremy
Which is funny to me because it really is this is what you and I have in common. This is our 90% is that we actually like I don't know how to how to word this in a way that would include both sides we like the stuff of Jesus right? I am more focused on the person himself.
05:22.12
forestandtrees
Ah.
05:24.65
Jeremy
You are more focused on some of the principles that you resonate with but fundamentally we both are drawn to Jesus that is that is I think our 90% we just we come out it in different ways which I think that poll illustrates illustrates which is also interesting because evidently we are we are perfectly.
05:28.87
forestandtrees
Um.
05:43.53
Jeremy
Representing but the listeners and the watchers of both sides. So I found I found that poll very interesting that they were split.
05:46.99
forestandtrees
Yeah I thought it was interesting too. Yeah and in that sense I was really excited about it because I thought um like when I first started this show that was kind of like ah an ambition of mine of like could we get like 50% like atheist 50% christians listening to the show. So far I'd say that hasn't played out I'd say the majority of our listeners seem to be Christian from from what I can tell. But I I mean I don't have all the data we haven't like polled our listeners on that. That's just the sense I get from former Instagram followers and a lot of the feedback we get in stuff. But so this was an an area where it was a true split.
06:14.56
Jeremy
On.
06:25.48
forestandtrees
Ah, here. Okay, well here's an example was around easter time I did a poll of like did the resurrection literally happen I think and it was like 90% said yes and and like 10 percent said no or I don't remember specifically what the the results were I mean the the options. But.
06:41.53
Jeremy
Home so we're getting. We're getting back to that middle line Jeff we're representing everybody.
06:43.99
forestandtrees
Yeah.
06:49.45
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, were were you surprised with her with the results. Did you think that more people would lean towards person. Yeah and what and what does that What does that tell you? what do you have any reflections on what that means.
06:54.51
Jeremy
I was yeah I thought I thought person would run away with it and it it did not. Well again I think that's what I was thinking about essentially it would indicate to me that more people are drawn to kind of the end result of Jesus maybe without wanting to believe or or feeling that they could believe he's god maybe you know maybe just like. Kind of acknowledgement of I like him I like some of the things he did some of the things he taught I may not resonate with you know him is like Lord and savior type of a deal but historically perhaps was very significant and ah and you know just what I would say like for the purpose of this podcast I think it's great. I love it and if that's you know you're listening or watching this and that's where you would put yourself like glad you're here like I'm drawn to Jesus too now again I'm drawn to him as a person as you know the lord and the savior of my life but I'm also drawn to all the stuff that he said and talk and did. And so we have that in common I think I would just add a little bit to that which would obviously be a little bit that is very significant little bit but you know if that's our common ground of the podcast is that we're all somewhat enamored with Jesus Sweet like let's
08:16.96
Jeremy
Let's share the table over that and then explore where that takes us I like it.
08:22.15
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I like it too. There's yeah, there's there's kind of a lot. Um, you could interpret within like what specifically does that mean and like I don't because it kind of like makes me go back to where a few episodes ago when we were talking about divorce. You know that seems to be like a principle of Jesus according to the Gospels is. He's more anti-divorce then than we might be now in 2023 which is just you know, just 1 example that that I keep thinking about where we sort of contradict there. But um, anyway, yeah, yeah, appreciate that. Let's we're all, we're all on the table together. So it's it's a beautiful thing all right.
08:40.64
Jeremy
The.
08:51.70
Jeremy
Love it all right enough enough of the feel good stuff. Let's disagree all right? Let's do it. What what do you got for today? Jeff.
08:58.75
forestandtrees
Yeah let's yeah let's get back to the disagreement. Yeah that's that's what the people are here for all right? So we're in romans eleven I'm going to start with verses 3 and 4 this is quoting from Elijah here saying Lord they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars I'm the only one left. And now they're trying to kill me too. Go back to Paul saying do you remember? God's reply to Elijah. No they they have 7000 others who have never bowed down to bail. So this speaks to this overarching old testament theme of like the problem of idolatry right. Like if when I read the old testament to me that seems to be truly god's number one concern with humanity is is are they bowing down to the correct god or not not justice. Not caring for 1 another not love. It seems like idolatry. Is just his number 1 issue which seems weird to me. It seems to sort of contradict the things that we often attribute to god we often talk about god it doesn't seem to ah line up with the text and the whole the big picture story of of the old testament a couple caveats here. 1 I understand this is a complaint about old testament god so I I think I know how you're going to respond in that sense. Um, two I'm also aware of the criticism that people will point out of like idolatry is bad because you know people were.
10:29.70
forestandtrees
Sacrificing their children to bail an ashera and that's that's why it got so dark for their pagan rituals. The practices were that bad. That's why idolatry iss not okay and I'm also ah, but but but I guess I run say counter to that like. Old testament god also wanted you to sacrifice animals and then there's still like the blood atonement in the new testament. So it seems like it's you know it's it's better, but it's not 100% different than those other pagan gods and then just another thing I just want to get out of the way there because I know many a pastor is prone to sermonize about like. The idolatry of today is social media or your career or your family or you know whatever you think is the most important thing in your life. That's your idol so like I understand that metaphor that's that's fine that makes sense to me but I'm I'm talking about the more straightforward definition of idolatry like just bowing down to a statue of a pagan god. Like to me this seems like like relatively minor kind of a victimless crime as long as there's no child sacrifice happening. So yeah, then there is a victim exactly so that's my question to you Jeremy what What's so bad about idolatry. Just.
11:31.51
Jeremy
But they clearly there's a victim. Yeah.
11:42.20
Jeremy
The the non child sacrificing kind right? Yeah, so there's a a quote I'd like to share this comes from an author named Robert Capone I believe the book is called the supper of the lamb or something like that really interesting.
11:42.25
forestandtrees
In and of itself. Yeah yeah.
12:00.76
Jeremy
Like theology cookbook which it's it's worth reading if you've never if you like eating food and Jesus it's worth reading anyways, he has an interesting line about idolatry that I was thinkinging about he says idolatry has 2 faults. It is not only a slur. On the true god it is also an insult to true things. Okay, so it's a slur on god. It's an insult to true things. So I think this is an interesting way of of framing idolatry I would say that idolatry is ultimately us putting our hope in something.
12:28.89
forestandtrees
Oh.
12:39.61
Jeremy
That will not deliver results. So that's the insult to true things right? I am going to affirm something and and act accordingly and put you know, put hope and trust and some type of faith if you will into this and it's not real and so what I would say is it's not a victimless crime.
12:44.93
forestandtrees
Um.
12:59.20
Jeremy
Because we become the victim of the crime you are It is a self-delusion. It is you know this idea of I'm putting on my faith here and from God's point of view. You know for him to say hey don't don't worry about it. It's fine would be to just be content with the effects of idolatry on God's people.
13:02.56
forestandtrees
Um.
13:18.63
Jeremy
Right? And I think God's going look this is messing you up stop doing it and not because as as much as we're gonna see in a minute here that God is jealous of these other idols but but I think God's going, you're you're screwing yourself up like you're putting all your hope and all your trust into something that is not real. This is going to negatively affect you. We talked about before ideas have consequences right? So bad ideas have bad consequences regardless of what those bad ideas are now ah comparisons I was thinking about this and this is perhaps a weird comparison. But I think if it's.
13:38.00
forestandtrees
So yeah.
13:54.94
Jeremy
I would actually compare idolatry to pornography because whether we're talking about like images obviously or words in a romance novel pornography at its Essence distorts reality so it gets you to Believe. You know women are like this and they do this kind of thing or men are like this and they do this kind of thing and it creates this false world that then get to you either physically aroused emotionally aroused you know, ah you you have some reaction to this. But then you find that people don't act like that in real life. And you know I've been a pastor long enough and have been invited in to enough people's real life and marriage to watch how it absolutely destroys people and you can make a similar argument you know and some people do that There are you know there is ethical pornography that.
14:32.31
forestandtrees
Um.
14:48.80
Jeremy
Honors The people who are making it and is not exploit them so you go Okay, well that's a victimless crime right? They're on board with it except in the same way I would say you who absorb that or who you know are are using that pornography are now you're the victim because you're convincing yourself of this reality.
14:55.48
forestandtrees
Um.
15:07.90
Jeremy
That is not actually a reality and you know I just know I know the specifics of of marriages and relationships that have literally fallen apart because 1 person has become so skewed and it can be again. The guy or the girl having up so skewed because. They they have allowed porography to just distort reality and they've lost. They've lost any connection they have with the other person right? and they they don't know how to connect so to me I would say that's the real negative downfall of idolatry. Is you begin to put all your faith and all your hope into this thing that is not true. It's not real. And it negatively affects you because you're you're not goingnna get any life in that. But you're gonna put a whole bunch of faith whole bunch of trust in it and it's gonna set you up and so I think ultimately that's why god's going look I'm not interested in you believing false things and and giving your life to false things, especially if. You're the people I'm in covenant relationship with.
16:01.34
forestandtrees
Man. Wow It's different directions I could I could go with that I it it's it's good I do feel I feel very morally challenged by it I definitely did not come prepared to talk about the the ethics of pornography because I I certainly feel.
16:06.34
Jeremy
What do you think about that analogy Jeff.
16:21.28
forestandtrees
Sort of undecided about it of of course I was raised. You know, very purity culture like pories is a great sin I've heard a lot of people either post Christianian or just always atheist or whatever people like make the argument that that's that's kind of like a a false narrative.
16:25.34
Jeremy
Stir.
16:38.40
forestandtrees
Totally agree that if it's exploitative like if the people on video are being exploited. Obviously that's unethical. You know whether or not it's pornography in and of itself is unethical because it destroys your own sense of sexuality or like is destructive for your partner or not. It's yeah, that's a really big question I'm still. And still kind of wrestling with and feel undecided about ah in in terms of old testament god I guess I mean this maybe this gets more into like our our next question but like the sense of of jealousy like the the question of like why is god so jealous of the people. Um. Or worshiping these false gods if you know like I mean for 1 thing. It's like why if he wants to if he wants people to worship him. Why does they need to show up and prove his existence right? like it seems like people wouldn't be creating statues of other gods if they if there was verifiable proof that. Yahweh was there and he was the true god and the others were just statues to nothing. Um, yeah.
17:40.62
Jeremy
Well except I would say you know according to the old testament narrative like you think about the israelites they literally watch god deliver them out of Egypt supernaturally and then that same group is making a ah calf out of gold. So.
17:53.78
forestandtrees
Um.
17:56.78
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
17:58.51
Jeremy
You know to be fair to the the narrative at least I would say the narrative does imply that God physically literally supernaturally showed up and then within that same generation. Those people are like Moses has been gone for a while. Let's make a new idol. Let's make a new God You know we're going to worship that.
18:03.20
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
18:16.15
Jeremy
And you know 1 caveat to this I think is important in idolatry. Um, the idea was not that these items themselves became god like they didn't think when they made the golden calf that somehow they had created a god in ah, ah in ah of itself what they thought was that a god could embody that.
18:30.66
forestandtrees
Um.
18:35.40
Jeremy
And and they created a form in which another God could embody their God was gone. He's on the Hill with Moses. So let's let's create a space for another God to to be present with us and again I think that's why God's like whoa Whoa Whoa This isn't real like this is like you're literally deluding yourself.
18:43.49
forestandtrees
Um.
18:54.64
Jeremy
I'm I'm talking with Moses and the moses comes down. He's like what so I think that's what's hard from the narrative point of view they had seen you know all the plagues I mean all of that like they had seen all that and then they're like yeah, let's make a calf.
19:06.24
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that that is true and that that is a really interesting component to the story I agree with you there and that like according to the story like they just saw all these miraculous things and very very quickly. They lose their faith you know and like is that is that a true statement about the human condition. You know.
19:23.74
Jeremy
Probably.
19:25.72
forestandtrees
Like sometimes that. So yeah, sometimes I think I think about that for myself of like you know because I'm always like harping on about like why is I got to show up and do some kind of miracle and then I'd be a Christian again you know and that is something I think about of like am I diluting myself to am I diluting. What's the word I delusional self-deluional there by saying that.
19:42.18
Jeremy
No.
19:45.51
forestandtrees
Like what if you know god like cured someone's cancer and then I was like okay god's real I believe in him and then maybe five years later I'm like I don't know you could chalk that up to something else. it's and yeah it's possible what have you done for me lately? Yeah, yeah, that's um I don't know yeah that isn't true.
19:53.83
Jeremy
What have you done for me lately God yeah.
20:05.60
forestandtrees
Interesting I guess like it um, kind of a different sub sub genre of this is the second commandment right? No graven images I believe that's the second one and like yeah because I've I've also heard um people theorize that the golden calf could have like actually been like an alter or a.
20:12.33
Jeremy
Oh.
20:23.70
forestandtrees
An idol to Yahweh like they're saying like we want some. We want some kind of physical thing to worship. So we're going to make this golden calf to worship like the god who just brought us out of Egypt I don't know if you if you think that's a plausible theory or not.
20:36.76
Jeremy
I Don't think that's the most obvious or most compelling reading of that. No I think I think they were they they were ready to move on to something else because God wasn't delivering anymore and was distant and they're like yeah, let's let's go elsewhere. Let's figure out you know who.
20:42.53
forestandtrees
M.
20:52.70
forestandtrees
Yeah.
20:55.69
Jeremy
Who's up now and you know again I think yeah yeah to realize like we have we have this real strong sense of who who God is at least the God we're talking about in the bible like we we kind of understand like okay, that's who we're talking about but progressive revelation this idea we've talked about numerous times they're figuring out which.
21:14.31
forestandtrees
Um.
21:15.50
Jeremy
Which god is this and how was this god different all those other gods that we've heard about and so you know Moses is like what do I call you? So it's like even moses is like what what name did you have like what do you go by? So I think you got to got just remember at this point in the story. They don't know all the things that we know so they're still like okay this god was cool for.
21:24.68
forestandtrees
Um.
21:35.37
Jeremy
Getting us out of Egypt now let's figure out what god could help us to the next stage you know and I think it's more just more of a basic transactional thing whereas we are more relational probably with it.
21:40.80
forestandtrees
Sure Ah yeah I suppose from from the ancient israelites perspective. They didn't necessarily see the god that was causing the plagues to be the one and only god they probably were coming from. Kind of a polytheistic view of like oh this Scott is more powerful than the gods of Egypt but he's.
22:01.60
Jeremy
Well, they're coming out of a polytheistic country right? You know Egypt had all sorts of gods and so that's what they that was the air they breathed right? They're living in that and then god brings them out so they're like all right this god worked for us. But now there are other options. Let's go pursue the other options and. You know again from god's point of view like these are not going to give you life. These are not and so I think god's like stop stop pursuing this it. It is. it's it's both it's a slur on the fact that god is real so it's ah ah.
22:26.26
forestandtrees
Um.
22:35.63
Jeremy
Ah, denunciation of that you know I don't think you're real anymore. God you're You're just one of many and then it's like this I'm going to believe something that's not true and so again even like going back to the pornography thing theoretically and this is this is where you know there. There are some christians that that are you more of your your side. Ah, not a bos weber is one that comes to mind and she has a book on sexuality but like theoretically if you could have a you know a non-exploitive ah Pornography made that doesn't exploit anybody and then if if someone could experience that without.
23:10.91
forestandtrees
Um.
23:14.42
Jeremy
Any reality being distorted then theoretically I would say yeah then there might there might be room for that. The challenge is on both ends of that it gets tricky like how do you know that it wasn't exploitive. There's you know you you read about this industry. It's incredibly exploitive and damaging and.
23:34.21
forestandtrees
Um.
23:34.31
Jeremy
Very dark but then obviously it does just sort really easily and so it would take someone very self-aware you know to to kind of figure out hey this is not healthy for me and theoretically I think it's possible just like you have to be self-aware of you know how does alcohol affect you. How does all sorts of things affect you. Um, I Just think this one's obviously trickier and we're probably less objective when we come into it than we think we are just circle back on that analogy.
23:59.60
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I hear that um yeah to so to go back on just just 1 more question about kind of the old testament narrative and kind of the dynamic of of god and his interaction with his people I guess I want to just like push back a little bit more on the the prioritization. Because when you look at the stories of when Israel is disobedient and they start worshipping bail and ashra and they're ignoring god and then god will like cause calamity ah to get their attention I suppose right? and it seems like god. Doesn't care as much about the the orphans and widows and whoever is is being killed starved oppressed in the crossfire here as much as he cares about the is this tribe worshipping me and rather than worshipping these false gods you.
24:46.90
Jeremy
According to the people writing the story to to which I would say I think they had a very primitive understanding of God we are experiencing bad things. We must have done something to deserve it and the most compelling explanation is we worship these other gods and.
24:50.70
forestandtrees
According to people writing store exactly yeah.
24:59.38
forestandtrees
Me.
25:06.48
forestandtrees
Um.
25:06.52
Jeremy
You know we we are quick to dunk on that like oh stupid that's not real. We still think like this today I had a listening to a friend you know, share a story about his wife the other day and you know she's having some health problems and she had concluded I must have done something that god is punishing me for.
25:22.93
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
25:24.63
Jeremy
And he's like no God doesn't work like that you know I mean was trying to like talk her out of it like we still are tempted to believe that like if something bad happens I must have done something to deserve it and I think that's the way the israelites saw it We hey we just got Conquered. We must have done something to deserve that. What have we done? Well, we've been worshiping asra and bail you know and so that becomes the story like God gave us over and again I think it says far more about them than it does about God's heart I think God I don't think God is is personally you know offended.
25:47.71
forestandtrees
Um, ah.
26:00.68
Jeremy
I Think God's going look you guys are wasting your time. This is I've literally shown you who I am and you're you're ignoring this and going to something that's not true I don't think God's emotionally worked up like they like they portray it.
26:08.41
forestandtrees
Um.
26:13.54
forestandtrees
Yeah, okay I mean I guess that that opens up the question of like if if the bible is so inaccurate about God's character. Why you know why are we still using it. But we we can move on to because that that's a pretty good transition to God God's kind of emotional.
26:29.27
Jeremy
I Don't think it's it I Don't think it's It's just inaccurate or accurate I think it's the way in which God allows people to tell the story God didn't tell the story people wrote the story down and God allowed it and God met them and interacted with them and that tells us a lot about god.
26:33.40
forestandtrees
Okay, go ahead. Right.
26:45.70
forestandtrees
Right? So he allowed right? He allowed them to I don't know to editorialize to like make make it take creative liberties when they were recounting these historical events.
26:54.12
Jeremy
Which still happens today I mean you can go to all sorts of churches today and hear all sorts of things about god right? And if you went to enough of them. You'd hear very contradictory things from 1 church to another if you spanned it out. You know it's like well.
27:03.78
forestandtrees
Um.
27:12.70
Jeremy
Who's who's telling the truth and how why does God allow it. It's like because this is how God Works God's not coerive God allows you to say all sorts of things and then people have to figure out what what is real What is God really like and that's where faith comes in.
27:22.11
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I mean God's definitely a big, a big free speech advocate. He's just like I'm gonna let I'm going to let everyone say whatever they want and then well when the dust settles we'll sort it all out later.
27:26.83
Jeremy
Big, big free speech. Yep.
27:37.37
Jeremy
Hey up, That's how works.
27:41.54
forestandtrees
Ah, okay, yeah, we we can leave that there. So let's let's jump ahead to verse 11 did god's people stumble and fall beyond recovery of course not they're disobedient so god made salvation available to the gentiles but he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves. Now if the gentiles were enriched because of the people of Israel turn down god's offer of salvation think how much greater blessing the world will share when they finally accept it. So this sort of a a complex narrative going on here. But as I understand it is basically because the people of Israel who are gods. First choice his chosen people have been so unfaithful to him now he's turning his attention over to Israel or sorry I'm sorry to the gentiles to the non-israelites and according to the way Paul is is summing it up here. He's. Doing this as kind of a maneuver to make Israel jealous so that Israel will come back to him which which sort of reminded me of kind of like a a jealous boyfriend kind of thing like is is god using the gentiles as kind of his sloppy seconds to make his actual true crush jealous and come back to him like it's kind of this this.
28:58.15
Jeremy
The gentiles were the rebound.
28:58.54
forestandtrees
Romantic comedy of errors. Yeah, exactly gentiles with a rebound. Yes you, you took the words out of my mouth jeremy and ah so so and I feel like this kind of jealous lover analogy Paul's not exactly using it here but it definitely like reminds me of how that that analogy is used throughout the bible. I realize it's it's a metaphor. You know you can stretch metaphors too far I think the the book of hosea is kind of the the biggest example of that right? Where like the the people of god are like his bride who are unfaithful and god is like the the perfect husband or lover who is just. Always patient and we'll always take them back kind of thing but even in the new testament. They talk about like god is the groom and the church is his bride so I don't know it's it's an interesting ah analogy. It's when I look back on it now. It seems like there are some. Problematic features to it I mean for 1 thing it seems like a huge power imbalance right? like if 1 person is an all powerful god and the other is like us weak humans like is that really ah a truly consensual relationship. Ah so anyway I don't know just complex thoughts on a. Complicated analogy. But do you struggle with this god is jealous lover analogy to Jeremy or do you feel like I'm being too sensitive with this.
30:22.10
Jeremy
No, actually I shared this with you. This is not my favorite metaphor and I agree with all all the things you said also make me uncomfortable I'm like this really this will be the best way to say it.
30:33.11
forestandtrees
A.
30:38.48
Jeremy
So here's what I'm going to suggest and you can probably see this coming from a mile away because this is this is how I yeah here we go I'm going to say like so many problematic things this reflects more of the cultural understanding of the people than it does of god.
30:42.71
forestandtrees
Who does this look like who does this look like.
30:56.89
Jeremy
I would say our guy Paul here is a big fan of this image like Paul really likes this metaphor and uses it frequently and you know as I was looking this up I found it's all over Paul's writings you you have this this jealousy image use Paul really likes this. Um.
31:02.27
forestandtrees
Um.
31:16.47
Jeremy
But is interesting. You know because a lot of people think Paul probably was married at one point and you know his role in the sthedron and all that we probably had a wife and then she either left him or he left her or whatever so fascinating little backstory to think like what what was Paul working with relationally that you know he.
31:29.27
forestandtrees
Ah.
31:35.17
Jeremy
Sprinkles in here I don't know I just think that's interesting, but here's what I would say you can find it in the bible There's there's biblical references but it's not a huge Jesus thing and I was even trying to go through and I couldn't think of really a time where Jesus hits the jealousy card hard. Where Jesus like you. You know you make me jealous or um, you know it's just not as much of a Jesus thing as it was you know old testament and then some of people like Paul that really liked this image and I would say you know as I was studying this I actually realized I don't think this is really what god feels. So this again is making the argument. Yes, it's in the text but is the text revealing their perception of god and god allows it or is that how god really is now let me give you 3 other verses that would paint a different picture that at at a minimum we have to make room for this along with the jealousy.
32:16.86
forestandtrees
Ah.
32:31.22
Jeremy
I would suggest we could probably weight these heavier than the jealousy and go god's probably more like this than that. But I'll let I'll let you and others decide. So first I'll I'll go I'll go for Paul because Paul does have a counterpoint that he wrote first carinthians 134 the love chapter Paul says love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud. Okay, so which is it Paul is is love that you know god has this jealous love toward us or is love not jealous as you're saying in first scriptians thirteen because.
32:53.70
forestandtrees
Ah.
33:10.79
Jeremy
That seems to say something opposite than what Paul's arguing here. So okay, love is not jealous. Okay, well first John 4 8 says god is love all right? So then if we're taking those arguments we go. Well then god is not jealous if god is love and Paul saying love is not jealous. And then James 153 says for jealousy and selfishness are not god's kind of wisdom such things are earthly unspiritual and demonic oh like okay so jealousy yeah selfish that's not that's not the way god.
33:42.22
forestandtrees
Um, so.
33:46.55
Jeremy
Does this these are earthly things unspiritual things even demonic things so I would say again at a minimum I think there's enough in the text to go. Yeah, maybe it's not maybe it's not the slam dunk jealousy that we thought or I would say does that look more like Jesus or does this jealous lover. Look more like Jesus to me I go the jealous lover doesn't I don't see that in Jesus I don't see Jesus playing that card going around. You know, guilting and shaming everyone for their unfaithfulness to him as a bride like I just don't see that tone or that posture so like I've done neubber signs I'm gonna say when we get to some of these. Problematic things I think we have to acknowledge this is god allowing people to project how they see god how they understand god and it may be more of that. This may be way more Paul than it is how god really is.
34:39.40
forestandtrees
Yeah that's good. The the first corinthians love chapter I mean you know obviously it's a you know, beautiful like piece of writing like I you know I don't think it's a problem that people use it at weddings I know like some bible snobs like to say like you know, technically that's not about marriage. But anyway. It's cool. You know like if if ah married people treat each other with patience and kindness and and stuff like I think that's a great um it it I have always thought of it not always but more recently I've thought of it as being one of those like kind of logical contradictions with the bible because it says you know the bible says. Love is patient. Love is kind not quick to anger. Never jealous and then the bible also says god is love but then the bible also says god is jealous and the stories as I read them. God seems often like he is quick to anger and um, ok, ok.
35:29.59
Jeremy
Jeff there is no the bible. The bible is not a person. It is not a voice. The bible is a collection of stories of people who wrote down their experiences of god and about god.
35:38.46
forestandtrees
Um.
35:43.41
forestandtrees
Um.
35:45.16
Jeremy
So even when you say the bible says the bible says the bible doesn't say any of those things people in the bible say those things and now you and I get to wrestle with it and go what how do we make sense of all this right.
35:53.81
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's that's a good point. So I suppose that you do need to have some level of like prioritization when you decide like when when 2 when 2 different authors of the bible contradict each other directly you have to just decide. Well.
36:06.50
Jeremy
Correct correct. Well it oh and Paul is contradicting himself I mean if Paul is talking in first corinthians thirteen about love and he's clearly saying it's not jealous. That's not ah, that's not a character trade of love.
36:11.27
forestandtrees
1 1 person was wrong right.
36:23.92
Jeremy
And then is describing god elsewhere using the jealous lover analogy I would say paul you're you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth here like which is it and again I think this reflects Paul far more than it reflects who god really is and so I would say you get these verses that.
36:23.96
forestandtrees
Um.
36:31.50
forestandtrees
Hidden.
36:41.47
Jeremy
That give you a little sunlight that there could be something better than the jealous lover at Ally and I I choose to say yeah those look far more like Jesus to me and so I'm going to let those carry more weight because I interpret the whole bible through Jesus I don't interpret Jesus through the bible.
37:00.22
forestandtrees
The ah the the other one that I thought because I believe this in the new testament rate because it says love keeps no records of wrongs but isn't there a spot in the new testament where it says God has has yeah but isn't there a spot in the bible where says God has a book.
37:05.95
Jeremy
Get that's my first parentians 13
37:14.74
forestandtrees
With with all of your sins that you'll be held accountable for at the end of life or is that is that kind of a Christian myth.
37:20.50
Jeremy
Like the ah so that would be like I think in revelation like the book of life. Some of that. Um and that would be kind of probably how you interpret some of those again are we are we taking it Literal is it figurative is it. You know.
37:24.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, exactly Okay I just thought yeah yeah I just thought about that was.
37:37.96
Jeremy
So again I I just say we go back to what what looks like Jesus because Jesus is what god looks like so does does the jealous lover analogy does that embody who we see in Jesus and I would say no it it doesn't I don't see that in Jesus and if someone else does awesome.
37:41.53
forestandtrees
Mean.
37:57.90
Jeremy
Then that makes sense to you I don't see it like it doesn't make sense to me I go I don't I don't really see Jesus playing that and I think there are other passages in new testament where the writers are offering something better than the jealousllus lover.
38:09.40
forestandtrees
all right? all right yeah I can buy it. We can just I don't know scrub those away I don't what what would you say to someone who's like reading reading these passages like someone who's like reading through the book of Hosea. For example.
38:24.89
Jeremy
Yeah.
38:27.75
forestandtrees
How you know how do you you know do you just kind of grit your teeth through this and be like well they certainly had 1 opinion about god or like what what? what would you say to someone reading some of those old testament passages.
38:37.30
Jeremy
Again I'm I'm not 1 to throw out any of the bible. So you know you you had said earlier. It's inaccurate I I don't like saying it like that because I think it's that's a very dismissive you know way to understand it I would just say it's not the full embodiment of who god is and so read it.
38:47.94
forestandtrees
Um.
38:56.90
Jeremy
With the context in mind again, This is why I studied it. This is why I continue to say this's why we have this podcast is to get into the nitty-gritty to explore these ideas because there's so much there and and so I would say to someone yeah like understand this this is a common. Relational understanding like most of us can understand the jealous lover ah ethos right? like that's ah, that's a pretty universal human experience and so if if that's if that is an image that helps someone then I would say great I'm glad that helped you understand God I wouldn't say I wouldn't stop there.
39:19.12
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah.
39:31.70
Jeremy
I would keep going and go okay now I want to introduce you to Jesus and show you I think Jesus is even better than that like you know. So yeah, it's there and I understand it and I understand why they used it. It's a very common human experience and yet I don't think it captures the essence.
39:46.15
forestandtrees
Um.
39:48.79
Jeremy
Of the kind of love that God has for us.
39:50.30
forestandtrees
Yeah I guess right? I Guess that's part of why it kind of bothers me because like if God is supposed to be like perfect and above our like feeble human like driven by our egos and emotions and you know this seems to me like just a clear example of where we're making God in our image by writing him as if he's just. Emotional basket case the way that us humans are you know I mean.
40:10.60
Jeremy
Right? Which is what we do though we we often bring god down to our level as we try to make sense of god and again in relationship god allows us to do it and god has been doing it for thousands of years allowing people to do this and so to me I would say yeah, it's there. Yeah. You know I understand why it's there I understand why that was a common analogy I think ultimately it doesn't capture who who we we see in Jesus.
40:37.90
forestandtrees
Yeah, all right I I can dig it. Ah, that's.
40:38.27
Jeremy
And sorry for all the redeeming love fans the Francine Rivers fans the absolute that big is still a mega super book and so you can I'm not telling you you have to get rid of that book. Did you ever read that book. Jeff.
40:49.28
forestandtrees
Yeah, they they just made a I did not know a lot. You know a lot I knew a lot of friends like in bible college who read that book and were were big on it and I know they just they just made a movie about it recently which I know was was kind of controversial.
40:58.33
Jeremy
I had well I didn't even know that I had lots of people when it came out or like have you ready yet, you got read? This is the most incredible thing ever. It's all like all right I got I gotta read this I made so many people recommend it and.
41:12.19
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, what you think.
41:14.89
Jeremy
And I felt a little weird because it was like a Christian romance novel. You know what I mean and I was like this is not a genre I read and then I remember had this is before I had a kindle so I had a I had a physical copy of the book and it's got this girl in the dress at least the version I did on the front and I felt so.
41:27.67
forestandtrees
Um.
41:32.15
Jeremy
Like embarrassed you know sitting like in a Starbucks reading like people thinking I'm reading these romance novels like no hold on this is a a metaphor of the bible. You know it is like I I didn't love it. But a lot of people I helped them connect with god so if it does awesome.
41:41.52
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.
41:48.88
forestandtrees
Yeah, wrote romance novels are huge and a lot of them are there's like ah there's a whole industry of christian romance novels. Ah, but wife used to be a librarian in South Dakota and those were the most indemand books for the amish romance novel.
42:02.12
Jeremy
No gosh. Ah oh boy.
42:05.92
forestandtrees
Ah, ah so but I I mean I haven't read a so ah page of them. So I guess I can't judge. You know they're I'm sure they're fine works of literature who's to say.
42:12.22
Jeremy
As long as they don't distort your sense of reality of how real romance works.
42:19.76
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, yeah, you know do you think it's it's possible that a country boy like me could make it happen with a city girl like you Jeremy who's to say all right? Well maybe we can touch on just 1 more aspect of.
42:30.58
Jeremy
Ah.
42:36.20
forestandtrees
Perhaps distorting god's character or you know the biblical interpretation. how god how god comes off yeah all right? So verse 22 notice how god is both kind and severe have you ever noticed that jeremy.
42:41.25
Jeremy
I'm excited for this question. Yeah, we'll go.
42:53.20
Jeremy
I have noticed.
42:53.33
forestandtrees
He is he is severe I actually never thought of that before. Thank you Paul he is severe toward those who disobeyed but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting you also will be cut off.
43:11.40
Jeremy
It's a very aggressive verse.
43:12.67
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, so this is definitely a question I've asked you before like are you sure you're not just kind of cherry picking the good parts here. But I thought you know I couldn't resist this verse. It's I found it so refreshing. Even Paul notices the contradiction here. Yeah yeah, so.
43:22.21
Jeremy
Yeah, well, it's good. This is this is right up your alley.
43:30.17
forestandtrees
Obviously there are plenty of verses about like how god is love and about how Jesus is is peace love and blah blah blah. But there's of course there's also as we both know a lot of violent passages in the bible and ah even in the new testament like what Paul is talking about here is he's severe towards those who disobeyed him even Jesus talks about this of like. The the sheep and the goats you know, like at the end of time at the end of days. You're either in or you're out and ah, it's it's bad news for people if you're not on god's good side so that's a question I have for you jeremy once again, are you sure that are you. Do you ever worry that you lean too hard on the kind aspects of god and are just ignoring the severe parts.
44:16.64
Jeremy
No I don't worry about that. Ah much to this chagrin of many people they they want me to be more worried. This is a constant probably one of the the most constant reactions I get ah from people both online.
44:17.66
forestandtrees
Okay, great.
44:33.61
Jeremy
You know videos I post my blogs sermons I mean just this is a constant. Yeah I don't think god is as good as you think he is. You should be worried about this I don't worry about this and here's what I don't even have to go out of chapter 11 to to negate. What Paul is saying here right? So you go okay verse 22 though is a slam dunk right? You know like god's this and that and you're gonna be cut off and this is like angry aggressive language keep reading and again I'm not gonna go outside of chapter 11 I cheated last weekend.
44:55.28
forestandtrees
Um.
45:10.90
Jeremy
Outside of our chapter I'm not gonna do it this week I'm gonna say within chapter 11 verse 26 Paul says all Israel will be saved what that's in that's verse 26 all Israel will be saved.
45:12.65
forestandtrees
Um.
45:25.97
Jeremy
Ah, okay, Paul you just thought about people but being cut off and you know these israelites who have these issues that are not accepting it and then you say all Israel will be saved then check out verse 32 for god has imprisoned everyone in disobedience. Oh that sounds so bad. Why. So he could have mercy on everyone who everyone so that's literally I mean that's what I'm saying you you you can go to the 1 verse ago this verse says it all like god is so kind he's gonna cut these people off and then you keep reading.
45:50.44
forestandtrees
Ah.
46:01.55
Jeremy
Like yeah but all Israel's going to sit be saved. Oh and god is going to have mercy on everyone like these are literally this is in the same chapter here's what I would say I find it so interesting that we collectively think there has to be a catch to Jesus. There's just no way.
46:19.67
forestandtrees
Ah.
46:21.10
Jeremy
He can be as good as he seems like what does that say about us as humanity. What does it say about us as Christians that this is the constant thing and again you're making the argument that normally is made to me by Christians by the way which is interesting of I don't think.
46:37.21
forestandtrees
Um.
46:38.96
Jeremy
Jesus is as good as you think he is I think you're you know and I I have well-intentioned christians who I respect and I admire and I'm friends with who look at me and think I'm out to lunch on I just have this you know happy go lucky view of Jesus. And I just think it's so interesting. Why do we think there has to be a catch. Why can't Jesus be as good as a lot of these verses portray him to be now. Interesting little side note to this last week we we talked about the cinder's prayer. In chapter 10 and I made the argument that I think it's a good starting point for a journey with god but it's a very bad finish line if you know you say the prayer and you think I'm good now I'm in forever so I posted that clip online.
47:17.37
forestandtrees
Um.
47:34.38
Jeremy
As I you know I post clips every week because I just love the abuse that I get in response I do and I get and I get in some truly fastinged conversations with complete strangers who the algorithm brings them to me or I guess brings my video to them so there's lady named Margaret.
47:34.80
forestandtrees
Um.
47:37.56
forestandtrees
You love to stir the pot.
47:50.73
forestandtrees
Um.
47:52.79
Jeremy
Who I don't think I know I don't think I've met her in real life. Um, so she sees this video and begins this exchange with me. She said I agree for most people for those that say this prayer on their deathbed. They don't get this opportunity but I believe they will get to experience heaven. So yeah, good starting point for most people. But at least if you say it on your deathbed. You know as a finish line. You're gonna get to heaven. So I reply I said I don't think the lack of this prayer is sending it anyone to hell either okay to which Margaret says. Wow. That's crazy. Do you have biblical references for this which again is the same. This is the same no the where's the catch Jesus can't be this good and again can you can you back it up. Well sure Margaret. So I give her a few.
48:41.34
forestandtrees
Ah.
48:47.40
Jeremy
Matthew 1814 John four 42 John 1232 John 1247 romans 1132 first corinthians 1522 forinthians Fifteen Twenty Eight first timothy for ten titus two eleven revelation 21 22 through 25 just a few right? So I give her all these verses Margaret replies. So.
49:00.62
forestandtrees
M.
49:06.64
Jeremy
Do you believe that people that haven't accepted Jesus as their savior and were fully grown adults when they passed will be in heaven I've always believed romans ten nine through Eleven again what's the assumption if I believe the text Jesus isn't that good. Sure Jesus is attractive to all people she says. But not I'll receive him I'm not claiming that I'm knowledgeable because only god knows all things. But I've never heard the perspective you are saying from a pastor evidently Jeff we pastors are the bear of bad news. Not the bear of good news. So then I I finally replied to her and I said I believe.
49:41.96
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
49:45.18
Jeremy
Jesus will ultimately redeem all things and all people and I dare to believe that he is that good. So I'm I'm gonna hold on to this. Yes, there are nasty versions and of god and yet there are things that like verse 22 seem to be really harsh. Then there's also other verses that would imply just the opposite and so when in doubt I dare to believe that Jesus is as good as I think he could be I don't want to imagine a better Jesus than the one I actually believe in.
50:20.33
forestandtrees
Yeah, okay, so to the I first of all like I I I like that about you I I like that you have the positive view of god um, and it's it's something for the most part I agree with like for me I I don't even see like cherry picking out of the bible as. Ah, bad thing like the way I used to when I was a like a more conservative Christian many years ago I feel like you know it's okay to just take like the the love is patient. Love is kind verse and just run with it. You know that's that's a beautiful piece of writing. Ah what? But when you say like I don't want to imagine. I don't I wish I couldn't imagine a better view of Jesus or what have you said? it's like it's not hard to imagine like the bible being being better than it is right? Would you agree with that statement like it would be very easy. It'd be very easy to delete.
51:06.73
Jeremy
I Don't know if I would because I sure and and at a service level. Yes I would agree with that at a deeper levelr I would say no because I find it so fascinating that God allows that so again, the fact that.
51:11.72
forestandtrees
Just some of the really problematic, Really bad stuff. You know what? I mean.
51:26.30
Jeremy
God is so secure and who god is that god would allow the people that god is in covenant relationship with to believe these things and say these things and represent these things and god continues to allow it today with all sorts of christians saying all sorts of things about god. And again I've probably said all sorts of things about god that god's like what on earth is he up to today but I haven't been smited yet and god allows that and I think god is so secure in who god is.
51:49.84
forestandtrees
Um.
51:53.96
forestandtrees
Right.
52:00.29
Jeremy
God is the abundance. The overflow. All that is truth all that is beauty. All that is good and god is just constantly trying to get us as close to that as as god can and so the fact that the bible is written the way it is the more I study it the more. You know I just reflect on that I think it's beautiful. It's bizarre and it's not easy and yes there are a bazillion easier ways. God could have done this for sure agree with you there but there is something bizarrely beautiful about the way god chose to do it.
52:27.85
forestandtrees
Um.
52:34.70
Jeremy
And I would say at a you know, simple level. It's the fact that Jesus chose to teach in a parable over 10 axioms and I like that about god and would it be easier to just give us 10 axioms like god did in the old testament with the 10 commandments. Yeah, that would be easier but god didn't do that. Jesus says no I'm but tell you some stories I'm gonna invite you to follow me. Well, that's messy and weird and confusing and vague and abstract and all these things and then we all get to do it together in humility and figure out how to do that. So I actually find it beautiful.
53:09.30
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, again when you say that like on one level I agree with you of like the the mysterious kind of Postmodern nature of the Jesus Philosophy I think is is really interesting and fun to talk about you know like you and I like we're just having fun here just having these conversations. But. Throughout Human history like people have suffered you know like people have died and like women have been oppressed because of like the writings in the new testament. You know.
53:35.91
Jeremy
Do do you think people would not have suffered and been oppressed if there was no the bible.
53:43.10
forestandtrees
I think they would have yeah but at least at least God's name wouldn't be on it. You know at least that would be on us. Um.
53:48.71
Jeremy
I Think it is on us. That's my point just because we we attach God's name to it doesn't mean it's on God you go kill someone in the name of God that's not on God that's on you and and I believe that so I don't care if you slap.
54:04.80
forestandtrees
Um.
54:08.26
Jeremy
Ah Christian fish on it or you know I think that's what blasphemy is is when we start bringing in god's name and god's endorsement and all kinds of horrific stuff that god has no no business in at all and we say this is of god or god told me to do this and people have done it forever. But that's not on god that's on us.
54:23.82
forestandtrees
Right? But there does it but does that mean then the actual wait but doesn't that mean like the actual the actual text of the bible is blasphemy like the large chunks of the bible are blasphemous. Just.
54:28.50
Jeremy
And if we didn't have the bible. We would have done it and blamed it on something else.
54:42.55
forestandtrees
The writing itself. You know what? I mean? yeah.
54:44.69
Jeremy
I mean from that point of view. It could be yeah because again there are there are contradictory things. So unless it's perfectly displaying who Jesus is you're attaching something that is not of god and again I think blasphemous is obviously a very. Ah.
55:02.50
Jeremy
Hotbed word you know, but we all do this. We all attach things of of what we believe to God thinking that you know it's true and some do it worse than others. But God has allowed it and I think the point is.
55:11.57
forestandtrees
Um.
55:17.58
Jeremy
Don't attach these things to god figure out what god is actually like and then go join god in what god is inviting us to experience and no one gets it right? and so I don't want to imply that yeah I've got this dialed in and I know exactly how to I don't and I'm doing the best I can I try to read through these things to go. Yeah, this is some tricky stuff and. Hard stuff and yeah I believe that god looks like Jesus so I just keep going back to that I go how do I make sense of this How do I make sense of that you know so literally all right? How do I make sense out of idolatry god looks like Jesus how do I make sense out of this jealousy if god looks like Jesus how do I make sense. You know I just go back to like okay I I'll just keep plugging.
55:53.16
forestandtrees
Um.
55:56.64
Jeremy
Plugging away at it and doing the best I can knowing my theology is not perfect and Jesus still loves me and I'm in relationship with god.
56:07.27
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's cool I appreciate that am I am I in a relationship with god Jeremy still isn't that your next question for me.
56:16.74
Jeremy
You Ah well there was a verse that that I thought I'd be curious your take on this in in this season of your life and so we're getting to the end here Verse Twenty Nine Paul seems to make a pretty bold.
56:28.60
forestandtrees
Um.
56:33.55
Jeremy
A pretty bold statement I think not quite verse 22 level bold but just a pretty emphatic statement I'd love to to hear Jeff's theological take on verse 29 says for god's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Which I say all right? Jeff what do you think about this verse in light of your own journey.
56:58.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, well so first of all I say like in context, he's mostly talking about Israel here right? like saying like that's god's first love and he'll never he'll never abandon them fully because they'll come back? Um, but ok in terms of like what does it mean.
57:07.41
Jeremy
Sure.
57:13.51
forestandtrees
For me I'd say like yeah I I probably in in and a former life would have thought would have interpreted this first to mean an argument for once saved always saved right? This idea that you know to go back to the sinner's priority like because I prayed the prayer you know, even if I live a life of sin I'm secured forever.
57:31.83
Jeremy
Yeah, we fixed that in chapter 9
57:32.25
forestandtrees
Because of that or something. Yeah, it's true and I guess like now I would probably interpret it more as an argument for universalism. You know, like if if the bible is true or like if what Paul's saying here. Is true and ah god's call can never be withdrawn so like maybe that means like even though I'm like in this life I'm not like following god or whatever maybe he'll reveal himself a little bit more clearly in the next life and I'll follow him then um, yeah, and.
58:05.82
Jeremy
Interesting. Yeah.
58:10.24
forestandtrees
And then in terms of like what the the other boy I tried to think about the question is and was I ever called you know I mean that's that's of course like a big question that we talked about last time about like childhood indoctrination. You know like I truly would say I didn't really have a choice about whether I was going to be a Christian or not. As a child I did have a choice like in in my twenty s when I entered adulthood. You know a lot of my youth group friends went to secular colleges at a bible college and kind of like became like just normal people not christians anymore you know and it.
58:41.67
Jeremy
Normal people.
58:45.95
forestandtrees
Yeah, and at the time I totally judged them for it and I was praying for them and I felt I felt pity for them. You know that they had fallen to the ways of the world you know and now I feel like oh I am I am my friends in the early 20 s just 10 years behind the curve. Yeah yeah, um.
59:00.61
Jeremy
Ah, just took you a little longer.
59:05.81
forestandtrees
But yeah I don't know was was I called was I just a ah product of of my own upbringing and and I just embraced it harder than some of my other friends did at the time you know these these are big questions I don't I don't know did I feel. Like when I try to think of like what's the clearest time I felt a calling you know like I remember 1 time when I was a really little kid and I had these legos and I I set them up um to spell out the word lego with within the bricks you know so it was like a field of. Red bricks. But then just the white forms the letter l um and I had them stacked up and at one point like I knocked them over and it fell off of my shelf and just the word go was preserved because the l and the e were gone and this is this is how my christian indoctrination brain. Little kid mine thought at the time was like that's god telling me to go god wants me to be a missionary. Yeah, yeah, exactly and then like you know like fast forward many years later I think like ah missions work is is very problematic in a lot of ways. Um.
01:00:09.41
Jeremy
Um, and then I moved to Africa.
01:00:22.71
forestandtrees
I don't know So why do I bring up that story just to say like that's you know it's It's so easy for us to like make sense of things after the fact like our minds are meaning making machines so like was I called was I always supposed to be a Christian did God want me to start this podcast so that.
01:00:32.67
Jeremy
A.
01:00:41.79
forestandtrees
Jeremy could clear everything up for me and then I could like come back into the fold you know I don't know you could certainly argue either way. What do you think.
01:00:51.37
Jeremy
Do Would you say that you feel like a sense of closure with you and God or like you know, whatever I had I feel like that's done that's wrapped up like I've moved on or like. It's still whatever that is is still lingering.
01:01:11.48
forestandtrees
I'd I'd say still lingering for sure and um, like I've talked about this before too of like is is it just kind of a sunk cost type of thing of thinking like because I was so invested because I had all this time invested into like.
01:01:18.68
Jeremy
In.
01:01:27.40
forestandtrees
Starting the bible and like wanting to worship God and whatever um throughout a huge chunk of my life am I Just thinking like I need to continue to explore this stuff because it can't all be for nothing you know and or a part of me thinks like am I still drawn to it because so many of my friends and family members are still like.
01:01:37.47
Jeremy
Oh.
01:01:46.88
forestandtrees
Very serious, very devout Christians and I want to like relate to them I Want to like know how they think and and relate to them. You know? Yeah, there's certainly a part of me that thinks like maybe this is a mistake maybe I should cut my losses and move on. But yeah for for whatever reason I'm still here still talking about it.
01:02:03.50
Jeremy
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn your living proof man.
01:02:09.26
forestandtrees
yeah yeah yeah I am that I guess I guess to be fair, you know there's there's plenty of other people who were raised Christian and did just walk away and never look back. Um, obviously those people can speak for themselves in terms of.
01:02:18.78
Jeremy
No.
01:02:26.93
forestandtrees
What what they feel about spirituality or or where they stand with God in their life. But yeah I don't know I'm I'm still I'm still curious for sure.
01:02:35.28
Jeremy
And I love that about you and you know I think that's what that's what should be the goal for all of us. You know wherever wherever you landed on our fifty fifty vote that should be the goal is like stay curious. Keep asking the questions keep exploring you know.
01:02:46.22
forestandtrees
And.
01:02:52.67
Jeremy
The the moment we get to the place where like I've got this all figured out definitively and I'm not asking any more questions. That's a bad place to be and I I love the fact that I know like hey that's that's an interesting verse I wonder how someone would read that who isn't actively pursuing god anymore. You know it's like. And I get to hear your take and that's I think that's what makes this so interesting. So thanks! Oh I mean it's full of Hairsy. Yeah, but it's what I love about you.
01:03:15.72
forestandtrees
Yeah, did I have a ah good interpretation. It wasn't too heretical for you.
01:03:21.97
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, yeah, we can ah I can engage in some selfflagellation later maybe to aone for accents. Ah yeah, beautiful anything else. You want to say about chapter 11 this was.
01:03:40.87
Jeremy
I like chapter 11 yeah, that was good our next our next couple are going to be doozies.
01:03:41.17
forestandtrees
Wasn't the lightning discussion jeremy feel. Yeah, oh yeah, when is the um, the trifecta when when does that start again next week oh
01:03:52.40
Jeremy
Next week yeah the trifecta starts next week if you if you remember the very beginning of this when I when I set out the romans trifecta we're getting ah to the next two weeks or 2 of the 2 of the chapters. So here we go.
01:04:05.50
forestandtrees
Wow beautiful! Yeah buckle up everybody all right? Yeah, thanks everyone for listening. Ah, and thanks again to everyone who voted on Instagram if you're not please follow us on Instagram so to participate in our polls shameless plug. Yeah.
01:04:21.66
Jeremy
Shameless plug.
01:04:23.72
forestandtrees
And give you know give us a rating. You know we're not going to complain about that either give us review subscribe to our Youtube and ah, thanks again for listening see you next week
01:04:25.25
Jeremy
We appreciate your 5 stars? yes.