It’s Thursday night at summer camp. Time to make a decision for Jesus. Jeremy and Jef discuss the sinner’s prayer, religious diversity, the person of Jesus vs the principles, whether religion has broken Jef’s brain, and the Christian mission to take over the world.
Topics
Is God Moving in the Ministry?
The Sinner’s Prayer
Do Christians want to Convert the world?
Should Christians allow for Religious Diversity?
Does Jef even understand what the Gospel is?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
It’s Thursday night at summer camp. Time to make a decision for Jesus. Jeremy and Jef discuss the sinner’s prayer, religious diversity, the person of Jesus vs the principles, whether religion has broken Jef’s brain, and the Christian mission to take over the world.
Topics
Is God Moving in the Ministry?
The Sinner’s Prayer
Do Christians want to Convert the world?
Should Christians allow for Religious Diversity?
Does Jef even understand what the Gospel is?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
00:00.00
Jeremy
Well friends, we're back and today it's just just the 2 of us as usual I am Jeremy and I'm joined by my friend. Jeff.
00:09.52
forestandtrees
You know what we're doing today Jeremy the same thing we do every day try to take over the world.
00:12.62
Jeremy
What are we? What are we doing.
00:19.86
Jeremy
Ah, phineas and furb. No what is that I picking the brain. Yeah yeah I was thinking some I do but I was going I went to the wrong cartoon that was my bed phis and verb or they have a.
00:22.74
forestandtrees
Not pink pinky in the brain. Do you remember those cartoons now that's all right.
00:37.71
Jeremy
I Know we're gonna do today. That's their line have you now watched vicent furb.
00:40.93
forestandtrees
Um, yeah for sure I've not no I feel like that was that was past my time That's a more recent cartoon right.
00:47.22
Jeremy
Wow yeah, guess I've watched up I yeah I watched with my kids not in my childhood. So I guess okay 50 of verbs great though. No that was that was back in the day.
00:57.23
forestandtrees
Um, did you watch pinking that brain with your with your kids. Yeah yeah, ah.
01:05.14
Jeremy
Some of those cartoons don't age while when you watch them with your kids you're like Wow this is this is a lot. Well just some of the old shows. Yeah, like you know I've watched with my kids and I'm like I don't remember it that way you like.
01:09.92
forestandtrees
Oh it's It's a lot How so.
01:22.10
Jeremy
Certain things that were like Pg back then I think would get you a pg 13 rating now like that's anecdotal and just like the rating scale has changed quite a bit.
01:22.93
forestandtrees
Um.
01:25.27
forestandtrees
Oh sure. Sure Yeah, yeah, there's like the the jokes they throw in just for the parents that now that you are a parent. Maybe you you are aware of them and you weren't before. Yeah.
01:37.24
Jeremy
Like how dare they make that joke. Yeah, and as a kid it just goes over your head and you're like this is funny. So on that note, we are here to talk about romans 10 and got some good stuff today I'm excited. We've gonna explore the famous sinners prayer.
01:43.65
forestandtrees
Ah I hear you.
01:57.60
Jeremy
Which if you have grown up in church as Jeff and I did you no doubt prayed or encouraged others to pray or or heard it pray prayed at some point we're going to look at the role of evangelism and Jeff's going to push on whether cushions should actually value. Diversity as much as we may say so that's gonna be fun before we get to the questions I want to set the tone with verse four. So beautiful. So encouraging we'll we'll start us off this way. Paul writes for Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law.
02:18.72
forestandtrees
Huh.
02:35.27
Jeremy
Was given as a result all who believe in him are made right with God It's already been accomplished all the purpose of the law Now we get to be right with god.
02:45.51
forestandtrees
Yeah, very a very hebrews esque thing to say right? No that that old testament stuff is obsolete. Yeah.
02:48.77
Jeremy
It is very hebrews. Ask I like it. Completely. It's in the past Jesus Jesus has done. It. Let us move forward Jeff with our eyes on Christ. Okay.
03:04.30
forestandtrees
Yeah I I can dig it I can dig it all right? Well okay, so before we get into chapter 10 I I wanted to spring something on you jeremy based on um ah a recent Instagram post that that you just posted because you were a.
03:16.94
Jeremy
Oh okay I was I was yep.
03:19.42
forestandtrees
Ah, but a cabin or something hanging out with some of your your pastor buddies is that correct and you you posted a picture on social media with ah with a caption that and so something about this caption. Just ah, just stuck in my craw I had to ask you about it. So let me let me read the quote from your ah.
03:34.87
Jeremy
Ah I offended you with the caption huh.
03:39.25
forestandtrees
Well offend did you offend me I guess so well I wanted to ask you about it stuck in my craw. That's that was my word of choice all right? So so to quote Jeremy's caption here. It's encouraging to hear about what god is doing in their churches.
03:41.37
Jeremy
What what word would you use what? what? what? What was your reaction. Okay, all right I'll let you have it.
03:59.27
Jeremy
Okay.
03:59.34
forestandtrees
Referring to your your pastor buddies churches who you're talking to so this is something that of course have a lot of friends who like work in ministry and they'll post about some kind of church event and they'll be like so cool to see what god is doing or like god really showed up here. God did his thing you know it's a thing that I hear a lot and. I don't know it's it's hard for me to not be cynical I'll put it that way when people say this and not just kind of dismiss it as kind of a cliche christianise platitude that doesn't really mean anything but I thought since I have you here? Jeremy yeah you you and I are friends. You know I would never accuse you of being disingenuous.
04:28.34
Jeremy
Mm.
04:33.30
Jeremy
M.
04:35.13
forestandtrees
With a social media post. So here's your opportunity to explain like what what was the specific thing that that God is doing in your friends churches.
04:46.42
Jeremy
This is ah this is the question before the questions. Okay I like it So a lot of my time these days is spent you know on the other side of the the Ministry fence which would be you know this the conversations you and I have are usually from a less.
05:04.17
Jeremy
Traditional Christian perspective right? We're talking about a lot of opposition to these texts or or questions or concerns or you know difficulties with what people believe in christianhanity a lot of what I do with communion Waino is is very similar to this in the sense of it often attracts people who maybe not.
05:11.51
forestandtrees
Um.
05:23.77
Jeremy
Considering themselves atheist but may have an issue with traditional church or or with christianity or evangelicalism and so you know they're trying to work through that and so I I hear a lot of those and then you know just being in tune of the the culture of. Church today you know you hear about all the scandals and all the pastors who go off the rails and all the examples of abuse and there's just so much of that and I feel like I'm very aware of all that. Well then I had a chance to spend you know a few days with this group that I meet with twice ah twice a year. I've been in this group for I think like seven ish years and you know I get to hear what god's doing you know in their church that was the phrase like they're they're giving updates like hey here's what we're seeing happen here's you know and primarily my answer to your question is it. It was listening to their stories listening to real people. Encounter Jesus in their church and I was just very moved and I I even as I'm listening to them I had the thought like this is good for me to hear you know it's good for me to be reminded of um and even in you know some of the messiness of this that god is still using that model and people are still finding Jesus and. You know one of the guys literally just kept crying as he was like giving his ministry update because he was just so moved and he was just like it was story of after story of people and it wasn't you know I think people might expect them to be like oh here's the you know the metrics we hit and the thousands. It's like it really isn't that it's like.
06:58.71
Jeremy
They're they're telling stories about their neighbors and this person on the front row who you know have been praying for it and it was just one of those I was listening to all of them tell these stories of people and it was just very encouraging to me of I love hearing people find Jesus and I think you can find Jesus in a variety of ways. And you know I'm not on staff full time at a church anymore I still dip my toe into those waters when I preach on the weekend like I'm you know I'm preaching at a church this upcoming weekend. So I still you know and participating in that but not like I used to you know I used to be a lead pastor now I'm not. And so to me it was almost kind of like a counterpoint to a lot of the experiences I have a lot of the frustrations I have and it was a cool thing so and I mean hey god's doing cool things like god is continuing to reveal who god is to new people in this model and. That was encouraging to me because a lot of what I dwell on in that model tends to be the negative end of it which is also there and I don't want to minimize that but I think it's good to keep it all in balance and go yeah god can use it as well and I don't think there has to be 1 model of how god's gonna reach people and god can reach people through this podcast and gos. God can also do it in the local church and god can do it at a commun Waco event you know? and so I think just making room for all of it trying to highlight the good and all of it and obviously minimize any negative of any of these models.
08:23.11
forestandtrees
Okay, so just general it's it's kind of a general sense of things are happening like I don't know people are making decisions or or you're seeing you have like maybe a couple specific stories of life change or something like that and that's.
08:37.46
Jeremy
Well they they each did so they they each are sharing stories of people in their church and I'm just listening to these stories I'm going. That's just cool. It's cool. You know people who didn't know God and are coming to experience God and feeling like their life is being transformed and.
08:41.67
forestandtrees
Um.
08:54.90
Jeremy
They have hope and and so like that's you know again I know I don't know all these people like these are their stories but I was just listening to all these these stories and was very moved by it.
09:00.47
forestandtrees
Um.
09:05.92
forestandtrees
Yeah, no, that's great I guess like I was what 1 thing I think about sometimes when people post like that particularly around like summer camp. You know people will post like god showed up god did his thing and your post kind of reminded me of that although you were posting about like a ah conference of pastors. Sometimes ah because they post but kind of the same caption every single year and it made me think like is this just what they mean by like business as usual like this is the normal thing that happens and sometimes I think like how bad would things have to be before you could not in good conscience say like god showed up god did his thing. Do you know what? I mean.
09:38.14
Jeremy
Well I think God showing up should be business as normal, right? like that would be a healthy expression if the church is doing what the churches is supposed to do then that should be business as usual. Yeah God showed up God Did what only God can do. But I think to your point there are certainly things where I go.
09:45.16
forestandtrees
Um.
09:55.10
forestandtrees
Um.
09:57.99
Jeremy
I don't know what that was and you know I would just say to be honest, 1 of the conversations that we had at this group was another church that we all know the pastor of this other church who's kind of spun out lately and gone off the deep end on a number of things and we were trying to like make sense of that like. We all know this person. We know this church what is going on like how did that happen and I would say you know it wasn't obvious to me that god was working in that situation like that situation seemed very broken and we were discussing like how does that happen and you know and so even in that is an acknowledgement of. This isn't I wouldn't say every church is equally healthy and I wouldn't say every church is equally submitted to the holy spirit and there are definitely churches that are a safer place for oppressors than they are for the oppressed and that's a problem and.
10:41.39
forestandtrees
Um.
10:53.27
Jeremy
You know when I see those examples I wouldn't say you know God God showed up I would say God doesn't seem to be able to show up because of the sin of the leaders you know and things that they're doing and so I definitely think you have a contrast to that and you know without going into the specifics of the negative There was definitely an example that we kept working through.
10:53.98
forestandtrees
Um.
11:12.46
Jeremy
Because this was a kind of like ah a shared friend with a lot of us and it was like how did how did this happen. How did this go wrong.
11:20.58
forestandtrees
Um, okay yeah that that is interesting and that is good to know that there's some some level of contrast because I don't know I guess like I like what I was saying before it kind of seems like if if you always say God showed up God Did this thing. It's like how do you know? if you don't have anything to compare it to. But.
11:34.97
Jeremy
Sure what and I I think there's plenty to compare it to and I suspect people who are listening to this podcast are watching. This are probably very aware of what what it gets compared to.
11:36.97
forestandtrees
Okay, well, that's interesting for sure.
11:48.22
forestandtrees
Okay, yeah, well well help.
11:50.56
Jeremy
But if I can balance it out Jeff and offer a little bit of encouragement that god is still using the church today then that's all i's trying to do just offer a little bit of hope. No I just know I just I I think there can be good as well and I was that's all I was trying to say.
11:57.60
forestandtrees
am I am I coming off am I coming off too cynical I apologize oh okay, no, that's great. Well let's I mean let's continue this theme of you know like let's let's keep our heads in the yeah in the arena of Summer camp.
12:14.95
Jeremy
See see we were going with this that wasn't that was a nice transition that was a smooth preacher transition. You just worked there.
12:16.56
forestandtrees
And also kind of of of Christian cliches. Yeah, it's it's decision time Jeremy it's Thursday night.
12:26.96
forestandtrees
Oh. Thanks, yeah, if I could have the band come up, please all right? So so jumping into romans 10 we've got romans 109 this is the final stop on on the romans road I realize we haven't we haven't necessarily checked every single stopping point on the romans road. But but here we are romans 109 if you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that god raised him from the dead you will be saved so to me this as I understand it this is where we get the idea of the sinner's prayer like this this idea within christian culture of like how can you be saved. How do you know for sure that you're saved. It's like you just have to pray this prayer. I believe this is where people get it from and of course I understand like there's it's ah it's a controversial topic. Not everyone agrees that this is where salvation comes from or how you achieve salvation and people will often criticize it for being like this like fire insurance like kind of a. A 1 and done thing or I've heard people call it the magic prayer to kind of mock this idea of all you have to do is pray the prayer and then nothing else. Um a couple of scenarios that I thought of are um because this often happens at church camp. You know you cart all the kids in and then Thursday night you get them to to pray the prayer cry their eyes out.
13:28.19
Jeremy
Sure.
13:40.77
forestandtrees
And then you send him home saved so it made me think like I wonder like does this apply to everyone who prays the prayer like say a kid is just kind of pressured into going to camp. He's not a church kid and then he's pressured into praying the prayer Thursday night and then he goes home and never thinks about god ever again is.
13:45.45
Jeremy
Um.
13:57.74
forestandtrees
Is that kid saved for the rest of their life just because of that one moment and then another question or another kind of famous example is the serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer ah very controversial. The fact that you know he lived his life as a serial killer did a lot of bad stuff went to prison found jesus you know, presumably. Prayed the prayer and was saved and you know presumably gets to go to heaven and kind of get away with it in that sense and a lot a lot of people have a problem with with that story. So just you know, just a couple scatter thoughts there. 1 question I wanted to ask you Jeremy because I remember having to pray this prayer feeling. Feeling pressured to you and feeling kind of afraid of afraid of hell and wine to cover my bases just to be safe. So I prayed this prayer many many times as a kid. How many times did you pray the prayer if you remember.
14:44.38
Jeremy
So so here's how here's how churchy I am I don't have memories like as far back as I can remember as a kid I don't have any memory where I didn't already want Jesus like I can't I don't even have that. So.
14:50.54
forestandtrees
Isn't.
15:01.30
forestandtrees
Um.
15:02.79
Jeremy
I Like literally was the kid growing up in church hearing serm after Sermon so you know when when your dad is like ah a pastor and you know you're in the flow of that I I just was always around it. So I can't even remember a time I was like you know what I don't have this and I want it.
15:12.55
forestandtrees
Um.
15:20.14
Jeremy
Like I always felt like I had it is literally as far back as I can remember now as you know I'm growing up that meant different things to me at different stages as I understood it so you know I was actually baptized in third grade that's kind of when I understood like oh this this piece of it means this and I want that piece you know and that was kind of when I like clicked in.
15:31.24
forestandtrees
Um.
15:39.77
Jeremy
Place but I would have said you know I would have prayed the sinner's prayer all the time and not even thought anything of it because it was like yeah of course like this is this is what I do this is who I am this is what I want. Um so I don't have any moment where I was like you know what? this is this is my moment when I I just. Clearly grew up always thinking I want Jesus and Jesus you know is in my life and so I was like that super churchched kid that was so around it all the time that I literally don't have any I have no counterpoint memory to even make sense of that. So I'd be the guy that's like yeah I'll pray it again.
16:04.92
forestandtrees
Listen.
16:16.72
Jeremy
Like sure but I just always grew up thinking I had Jesus in my heart from the little little kid song that I would sing.
16:21.30
forestandtrees
No, that's great. Yes, you don't have any any war stories of yourself rampaging like as a two year old before you found the lord and causing mayhem on the streets.
16:32.90
Jeremy
The terrible truth. No I I literally have no memories outside of like some of my earliest memories are in the church. You know I mean of growing up and like that was my childhood it was. You know my dad was a youth pastor at the time and doing all the events and always had you know.
16:39.54
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.
16:49.93
Jeremy
Students around us and I mean I was just like I can't think about anything other than that like that's my childhood.
16:56.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that's good I I have a memory of ah praying the prayer for the first time like telling my parents I want to accept Jesus and as I remember it go like going into like my sister's room and I remember like laying down on a pillow and praying the prayer. Um, and I I want to say I was like 3 or 4
17:12.27
Jeremy
Oh wow.
17:13.79
forestandtrees
But of course like it's I was I was so young that it's It's really impossible for me to know of like is this ah an accurate memory or like a memory of a memory kind of thing you know like is um as we know memory can be unreliable what I was was that oh.
17:19.80
Jeremy
Sure that's young man that's young, 3 or 4
17:32.57
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean it's from what I remember who can say Um, yeah yeah I guess I could ask my parents if they they probably don't remember because I probably I probably prayed it before then it just forgot about all right? Well so just just to talk about this this idea in general as I said it it is.
17:34.76
Jeremy
Who yeah who who can who can verify this story. But.
17:51.74
forestandtrees
Sort of controversial and like I understand why people would criticize it I guess I would also say I understand like why people have this desire to like have a formula like it's very easy to criticize the center's prayers like oh you can't put god in a box man. It's not like an easy formula. It's it's not a religion. It's a relationship but also you know like if you believe in heaven and hell like. Stakes are high I can see why people are like just tell me what to do I need specific instructions. Please um, but and and then my criticism at this point in life this sort of like how how do you approach this topic with children because this is how I see it applied most of the time is you kind of like. As I said ship kids into summer camp or Sunday school and kind of pressure them into this so and then you know and then they're kind of like just figure out who they are later in life. So what are your thoughts on this. Do you feel like this model that we have in in churches with the center's prayer and alter calls and such is helpful or harmful. What do you think.
18:51.00
Jeremy
That's like that's a great question before I answer it. Let me tell you a story that you made me think of when I was in undergrad bible college. We had a a scenario that the professor set up in 1 of our classes and then you had to go to 1 side of the room. Ah, depending on your answer to this or your response to the scenario and then each side got to argue why they chose what they chose and here was a scenario imagine you're you're alive. You're part of the church during medieval times and your nation has just conquered another nation. And you're a Christian nation. So all these people that you conquered you basically take them to this river and at the point of a sword you say all right here's the deal if you want to live all you have to do is become a christian and get baptized and then you're one of us. And we'll welcome you in and if you don't we're going to kill you right here and so then the scenario was okay imagine that's what happens which this is something that happened you know throughout history and then but here's what the professor said now you're the church and all these.
19:59.49
forestandtrees
Um.
20:04.51
Jeremy
New converts come up who have just accepted Jesus as as they have been conquered. The question was do you welcome them in and treat them just like you would any other christian. Or essentially do you have a little bit of skepticism or you know like hey this is kind of a unique thing. Maybe they don't actually believe or is it like hey they just got baptized. All's well and then it was like choose you know, basically like I think one side was like on you know on.
20:28.92
forestandtrees
Yeah.
20:38.56
Jeremy
Wavering you welcome them in no different and then the other side was like yeah well welcome them. But like we're going to nuance this or acknowledge the situation type of a deal. So here's what shocking almost the entire class as I remember this went into the unwavering welcome them in category I was one of the few that went to the other side.
20:56.85
forestandtrees
So the question kind of is just like does it count right? like.
20:58.40
Jeremy
And so then it was the pressure was like all right argue Why? Why are you in the side you are and I just said Okay, we're acting like this one moment suddenly has transformed who they are and I said they were pressured to do that like. All they're trying to do is stay alive and like sure like I might do that in that scenario just to not die, but it doesn't mean I'm choosing that doesn't mean I actually believe that and so I decided you know I wouldn't say we exclude him from the church but to not acknowledge the situation.
21:22.71
forestandtrees
Ah.
21:31.93
Jeremy
Seems silly to me as if they have chosen this on their own volition. You know not coerced at all as like it is 100 % coerced and I think you have to acknowledge that and literally so many people on the other side of the argument. I remember like walking out of that class and I literally I just remember it I called my dad because I thought something's wrong with me because like everybody else in this class seemed to just know like yeah of course this is real. You know and I just couldn't wrap my head around it now I've realized in hindsight my. Hesitation on that is the same hesitation I have today around the center's prayer of this one just magical moment right? that everything has changed because of this moment. What I would say is I think it's far healthier to focus on an ongoing pursuit of Jesus.
22:18.74
forestandtrees
Um.
22:25.89
Jeremy
Rather than any momentary thing now the catch to that is a pursuit of Jesus has to begin somewhere has to begin with something but I think if you look at how the magic prayer. The sinner's prayer and I would also say how baptism. Is often used in today's context both of these often become finish lines rather than starting points where you know I say I said the sinner's prayer I'm in or I got baptized I'm in and the idea is like nothing I do from this point matters I did the thing I had to do.
00:00.70
Jeremy
So rather than viewing the sinner's prayer or baptism as the end as the the the you the goal I would say view him as a turning point like this begins my journey and I think you know we talked about this before but a great parallel metaphor would be getting in Shape. Or trying to be healthy I would say you know think about all the the fads that we sell you know you can do this cleanse or this diet or you know stop eating real food and just do some shakes and you're gonna you know it's all going to be amazing for you. Well, all these are essentially momentary things. We're trying to do to get what we want. Well the you know Science has proved this over and over you. You want to be in good shape and feel Good. You need a commitment to eating well and exercise. It's like it's not complicated. It's not you know.
00:51.69
forestandtrees
Um.
00:53.87
Jeremy
But that's well how long do we have to do it for ah as long as you want to feel good and bret you know I mean like well how how long do you want to feel good. How long do you want to be healthy. How long do you want to be in good shape like you have to keep it and I would say this is the same thing like I think a lot of people like what do I have to do.
00:57.72
forestandtrees
Forever.
01:13.10
Jeremy
To be good with god and we put the sinner's prayer in that camp and when that's the way we use it I would say it's not helpful because it becomes a finish line. But if we say hey we we want you to follow Jesus the rest of your life. We want you to spend the rest of your life working on allowing the fruit of the spirit to be evident.
01:17.88
forestandtrees
Um.
01:32.28
Jeremy
The holy spirit. You know every day would reveal more of that. Then yeah, if the senior's prayer is the turning point is the starting point to get me on that journey I'm all for it. But I think it's how we frame it and you know to your point about Summer Camp Summer camp tends to be very finish line oriented. At least in the emotional way we present it right? like you did it. You really go home and celebrate. You know it's like like you've arrived and I would just say you you've begun like you started an incredible journey. You know so to me I would just say it's gotta be It's got to be ongoing.
01:55.75
forestandtrees
Ah.
02:11.19
Jeremy
And you know and I would even say this to to pastors who are listening or watching. Ah you know I'm all 4 baptism numbers like that's awesome, but that doesn't tell me that inherently god is doing awesome things in your church tells me people are choosing to be baptized. What are they doing after that like are they. Diving into discipleship models. Are they figuring out. Do they actually look more like Jesus after they get baptized because if people are getting baptized to give them ah ah to get rid of their their guilty conscience then probably not a healthy thing to push a lot of people to get baptized. And I just think it's the way we present it which means there are good examples of this and there are very bad examples of this as well.
02:48.73
forestandtrees
Um.
02:56.94
forestandtrees
Yeah, very very nuanced answer I appreciate that? Um, no I mean that's good. It kind of goes back to how you answered the the first question I think it it lines up with that pretty well of you're saying like it's not just about the numbers. It's about like.
02:58.65
Jeremy
Why thank you.
03:12.36
forestandtrees
Specific stories of of life change in people's lives that that's definitely just kind of a personal pet peeve of mind of like you know I used to work at a church and they would like kind of they would do the numbers. You know at staff meetings or like after summer camp they would you know and they always say we're not about the numbers. You know it's not about numbers that being set here's the numbers of how many people.
03:29.67
Jeremy
Yeah, but listen to these numbers.
03:31.49
forestandtrees
Made a decision at summer camp. Yeah yeah, and then ah you know later on I was like because sometimes I was like as a graph designer I would like make the list of names I remember that was something we did like one summer um to like celebrate we had you know 600 kids make a decision or whatever. So was like I just made it a slide that was just like all the names and um I don't know I was thinking like is this is this a good thing that all these kids like made a decision like what does that mean does that mean that they were pressured into it does that mean that they were like. Scared to death of going to hell because like that was that was how I thought of it most of the time when I first made a decision as a kid. Um I don't know I haven't volunteered at a summer camp and in many years but I can only help I can only hope they're not like.
04:11.11
Jeremy
Um, and.
04:21.49
forestandtrees
Pushing the Hell narrative and like trying to scare people into making a decision. Um I don't just the whole idea of yeah.
04:27.88
Jeremy
Well I hate I hate to be the bear of bad news I think that's still that's still working. So I think that's still a thing. Ah but I did say you know even in our our group this week I did say hey here's 2 predictions I have for you guys in in the future of your church. Um, convincing people that they have to give money to the church out of like guilt or shame is going to be harder and harder to do that people aren't just going to inherently think oh man I'm supposed to give money to the church like that that premise is going to be hard and. Keeping people afraid of hell enough to motivate them to do what you want is gonna be harder and harder to do and so then my you know my encouragement on both those were motivate people to give because they're bought into what you're doing and they're excited to be a part of it not because you know they feel guilty and then. Motivate people that Jesus really is compelling enough that you don't need to run from hell you can run to Jesus and not that any of them were arguing a counterpoint. It was just like those are things that I would just say historically the church has really settled on like here we can get people you know scare them that they're abusing god's money. And they'll give out of that and then scare them out of hell you know and I just think those those aren't working the way they used to. We don't live in medieval times anymore you know and so I think people are going. Yeah that old pitchfork thing like I don't know about that like that doesn't doesn't really scare me anymore. So if if I'm not.
05:57.33
Jeremy
I'm not enamored with this Jesus you talk about like I'm probably going to go find something else that I can get excited by.
06:02.19
forestandtrees
Yeah, but that I mean that's the problem right? is like it does work with kids you know because kids are susceptible to being afraid of those stories that they're told so that's where it seems like deeply unethical to me, especially considering people have held trauma like.
06:18.55
Jeremy
A.
06:20.49
forestandtrees
The rest of their lives right? Um, but no, that's good I mean like I that's something that I hope is true I think that's something that you've said on this podcast and you believe that like tithing in terms of the obligation of you need to give 10% by default is not biblical and. Hell in terms of you'll be tortured for eternity If. You don't make the right decision in this life is not biblical though those things like they seem good to me. They seem like you know they would be completely scandalous to like a younger version of myself. But yeah to me that seems like good news. Bad news for recruitment for.
06:57.34
Jeremy
Well and right and I totally agree to clarify both of those are biblical I don't think either of those look like Jesus or what Jesus is asking about so you can find those in the text and that's the promise most christians are just looking for a biblical response.
06:57.60
forestandtrees
Churches Maybe but good news for the good news.
07:12.28
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, right.
07:17.31
Jeremy
Well yeah, read the old testament. We we talked about this a lot in the hebrew series old testament's all over the place and says lots of things and you know we're trying to make sense of who is Jesus and what is the biblical narrative pointing us to and I would say that's Jesus um, so yeah.
07:20.40
forestandtrees
Me.
07:34.87
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, hopefully though, yeah, it's it's it's hard not to be cynical as I said earlier um all right? Well so yeah, but let's move on to the next first this still deals with this idea of.
07:35.48
Jeremy
Hopefully it's not being used as much as it was.
07:42.62
Jeremy
I Fill you.
07:51.38
forestandtrees
You know numbers I get getting conversions that kind of thing. Yeah, what's what's the end game here if say you are running a church and you are like trying to trying to convert people um is is it like thinking in the brain. Are you just trying to take over the world. So verse 14 and fifteen here. Um.
08:03.96
Jeremy
E.
08:09.90
forestandtrees
How can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him. How can they believe in him unless they've heard about him how can they hear about him unless someone tells them how will anyone go and tell them without being sent that is why the scriptures say how beautiful are the feet of the messengers who bring good news. So as i've. So before I went to a Christian and missionary alliance bible college which if you can tell by the name. Very heavy emphasis on making missionaries sending people overseas and this so this so this was a huge inch verse for kind of the the Christian Missionary Alliance Recruitment program
08:37.46
Jeremy
I got that? yep.
08:46.81
forestandtrees
This and of course the great commission from Jesus at the end of his ministry and so we've talked before about kind of some of the problematic nature of missions How it can It can decimate cultures and be very insensitive. Sometimes it can do more harm than good to the the culture that is trying to serve and I've also. Pressed you before on just kind of the nature of evangelism and you've you've said in the past that you're not baing on evangelism you you don't want to be pushy about It. You don't have that urgency that this verse in Romans seems to be pushing for which makes sense to me as as someone who is a ah universalist I can see why. If heaven and hell are not on the line then you wouldn't have that same urgency there. Ah, but so so I'm kind of curious from from your perspective with what you believe Now? What is the mission of the church if it's not to just convert the world not to just make converts. Get those numbers.
09:26.88
Jeremy
In.
09:41.99
forestandtrees
Get it to 100% what do you think.
09:43.50
Jeremy
So You've mentioned this but it goes it absolutely goes back to your view of eternity because I think there's a lot of how what I says really good intentioned pastors who. Preach with an urgency because they literally are afraid of you know people in their church experiencing hell and so I don't want to fault that and I don't want to I don't want to minimize that because I think the heart behind that can be good. However, if you don't have that view that.
10:11.88
forestandtrees
Um.
10:22.27
Jeremy
There will literally be people burning for all eternity then I would say it opens you up to look at it differently right? And so so what is Paul talking about here. How how can they believe and yeah, so Paul saying like how are they going to respond to Jesus if they don't know about Jesus which is absolutely true. So how would you spend your life knowing the goodness of Jesus if you don't know Jesus exists meaning you can't now it doesn't mean you couldn't meet Jesus when you die and at that point god reconciles that and figures that out with you. But it means you could spend your whole life having no idea that there's a better way to live having no idea that there is a hope that there is a sense of redemption for the brokenness that you see around you so to me if I if I literally believe that Jesus is good. And that god looks like Jesus and that this is the most beautiful and pure and truthful and captivating thing. The world's ever seen. Why would I not want every single person to see Jesus like that and the answer is I absolutely would because. Not just I think it's going to change your eternity I think it'll change your right now like I think it can change your today when you go oh that's who god is like god looks like that. So to me I would say I don't want anyone to spend any more of their days. Not knowing a jesus like that.
11:54.38
Jeremy
So it's not I have this urgency because I'm afraid you're gonna get burned for eternity I have this urgency because I don't want you to live life. Not knowing that god looks like Jesus and it's incredible and that realization you know changes. So what's the mission if not making converts. It's to invite people to experience the goodness. Jesus now not just when they die like to spend your life now in a response to who god has been revealed to be as the person of Jesus so I do not think that the mission is you know, getting as many people to obtain fire insurance for when they die. Think it's about experiencing the transformational person of Jesus today and I would want every single person to do that and it it reminds me of the parable of the workers you know where Jesus tells the story and different people show up throughout the day and they're they're working this vineyard and the point is like. The owner of vendor keeps calling people in and calling people in and I think this is a beautiful metaphor for salvation of like some people got to spend all day. There. Some people got in later right? But the point is I got it continues to invite people in but we get to say hey you know Jeff if I could invite you to experience Jesus today.
12:54.26
forestandtrees
Um.
13:09.73
Jeremy
Rather than 10 years from now wouldn't I want you to have that you're and mean and at least if you decide I don't want that. That's your decision because you've had the chance to see Jesus but not because you're like what do you mean? Jesus like I never heard of Jesus so I think every christian even if you believe in my view of eternity. You still have this sense of like yeah Jesus is that good I would want every single person I want my kids to grow up knowing that god looks like Jesus now what they choose to do with that is ultimately their decision and some of them you know may decide to follow him some of them may not I don't know how that's gonna play out but I don't want to. I don't want them growing up not at least knowing here's what I think god looks like and I want you to be able to respond to that.
13:54.56
forestandtrees
Um, you you had me until the the parable of the workers thing that seems like kind of backwards to me if you're saying like it's a the people who benefited were the ones who got to work all day and got paid the same I've always kind of interpret that parable. The opposite right of like the people who got hired at the very end of the day are the lucky ones because they didn't have to work as as much but they got paid the same right? like that would be like the Jeffrey Dahmer type situation. Yeah yeah.
14:16.77
Jeremy
So that's how most people well, that's how most people read that parable of like suckers at the beginning of the day and the guys that got in last but it comes down to the other people spent the entire day at the vineyard which goes back to do you think that Jesus is inherently.
14:32.00
forestandtrees
Um.
14:36.42
Jeremy
Worth knowing and if the answer is no I just want to avoid hell then yeah, get in at the last minute and then eat drink and be merry. But if you fundamentally believe that Jesus is the essence of all that is good I want to spend my day at the vineyard like I don't want to be apart from the veneard I want to I want to go be.
14:46.60
forestandtrees
Ah.
14:53.37
forestandtrees
Um.
14:56.38
Jeremy
At the vineyard all day long and so I think it boils down to and again the way you interpret it is the way most christians interpret that sucks to get there early and spend your whole life working for Jesus get in at the end after you've had a chance to have some fun and it's like.
15:03.60
forestandtrees
Right.
15:11.59
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.
15:13.54
Jeremy
To me I would go you just have such a that's a small version of Jesus or at least what you you think you're going to experience through Jesus.
15:19.79
forestandtrees
Yeah I like that because I I mean I interpret it as like the payment is like heaven at the end so you get you know everyone gets paid the same because everyone gets the same eternity in the afterlife to enjoy and I guess I don't know I thought of like. Maybe this speaks to my personality of like isn't isn't work like no fun like who wants to work all day. Um, but also it's it's like a biblical principle right of um you need to suffer for the lord right? like like god says to Paul is conversion I'll show you how much you're going to suffer from my name. I I mean I'll say I do I like your interpretation that's cool I'm I'm always drawn to the idea of like what if there was no heaven and hell you know like would would it be worth following Jesus just for the benefits in this life. You know like I appreciate that you have that. Perspective and you feel like there. There is some kind of tangible benefit now and it's not you don't have to just like hang on this promise that may or may not come true in the future.
16:21.59
Jeremy
I think that's a great point and I would say if you could prove to me that hey none of this matters like we all die and then we're dead and there is nothing afterward I would still choose to live with the person of Jesus because it's.
16:34.77
forestandtrees
Ah.
16:38.65
forestandtrees
A.
16:41.50
Jeremy
It's to me the most compelling the most compelling revelation the world has ever seen that you have this idea of God could be the one who wins by losing who suffers and sacrifices rather than coerces and Conquers. Who loves the people that no one else is going to love I mean just like there's so much beauty in that. It's so backwards to the way the world works and I would still say I want to give my life to that. Even if it doesn't make a difference for eternity.
17:16.33
forestandtrees
Um, yeah yeah, I like that you're you're selling me on it Jeremy I because I mean I don't know this this goes back to I guess like what I've what I've brought up a bunch of times and thought about like you know, maybe if these things are kind of like. Poetically true or whatever like maybe it's still worth it and that's it's metaphorically true. Um, yeah I don't know because it doesn't it doesn't seem as intuitive to me that um I don't feel like I have that blessed assurance that you know you're going to see your loved ones again on the other side the way that.
17:33.25
Jeremy
Me here.
17:52.50
forestandtrees
But so many other people seem to but yeah I admire the the dedication and the commitment and the and the commitment to like enjoying your work. You know I think there's there's bible passages about that right about? um, enjoy the fruits of your labor or something or something something in A. Ecclesiastes about that because that's your lot in life. So.
18:13.55
Jeremy
Well again, what I think is so great is that all of these are are revealing something deeper that you believe so even like okay well what would a day working for God look like if that idea is inherently negative.
18:29.53
forestandtrees
Um.
18:31.54
Jeremy
It's probably because you have some baggage in your image of God like well God it would send me to do something I wouldn't want to do and I wouldn't enjoy it and it you know it would be suffering or like whatever like ah like however, you'd answer that is going to reveal to you A lot of how you view God But if you're like yeah I can't.
18:48.71
forestandtrees
Um.
18:49.53
Jeremy
Imagine anything more meaningful than working on the vineyard with God like then it's like oh you probably have a very positive image of God and like what that would entail. So to me, you know I want to spend my whole life doing what God lays before me or lays on my heart or you know if to use the. Proverbial image if God opens a door I Want to walk through it like I want to be the guy that's like okay you put this before me doesn't mean I'll get it right? all the time and doesn't even mean that you know I'm not self- delusional Sometimes we talked about and convincing myself that some opportunity is God opening a door because I want to do it. It's all part of being a human. But fundamentally if I felt like God saying hey here's an opportunity to go and do this like I want you to do this I Want to be the person that says yes and that's because I don't think God's going to just make me suffer for fun or make me miserable for fun I think it's going to be the most meaningful thing that I could do and that has been.
19:29.20
forestandtrees
Ah.
19:47.29
Jeremy
All my experience with god in you know my 4 decades have been that so that's what I conclude.
19:53.75
forestandtrees
Okay, so if I can maybe I can improve the parable a little bit. Do you think that's possible Jeremy to make the metaphor a little bit more.
19:58.44
Jeremy
Who I think technically that's heretical to say but I'll allow it.
20:04.43
forestandtrees
More applicable to the christian life. Okay, so let's say there. Okay, you you get paid. There's some kind of promise that you get paid at the end because the working in the vineyard is the christian life. So let's say you just stumble upon this vineyard and there is a sign there that says workers needed. You know you never get to meet the. The vineyard owner but it just says you know, just just do your work today and I promise I'll pay you at the end of the day and so some people see the sign and they get to work and then some people come later in the day and see the sign and get to work. Do you see what I'm saying here because there is no assurance that. This is actually the work you're supposed to be doing all you have is like this this piece of writing that says this is the work and you just kind of kind of have to trust your gut Trust this vague feeling am I stretching this metaphor too far.
20:49.71
Jeremy
Okay, but here's no I think it's it's an interesting point but that's not the way Jesus tells the story the owner of the vineyard recruits the people so that's the point if you if if it was a sign on a wall and you said you'll never meet the vineyard owner. You're just gonna toil away here.
20:55.62
forestandtrees
Are.
21:09.60
Jeremy
But at the end of the day you'll get paid then yeah I'll show up at closing time and I'll get paid. But if the owner of the vineyard comes to me. It says hey friend come be on my vineyard. This will be more meaningful than anything else. You're going to do.
21:12.14
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
21:16.69
forestandtrees
Yeah.
21:28.18
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah I Guess that's that's sorry, go ahead.
21:28.51
Jeremy
Um, in and so I think again it this illustrates I think the way you you view christianity is you're not gonna meet the vineyard donor. You're gonna see a sign. You're gonna have to just take its word you know and so I think that's what I'm saying the way we answer this reveals.
21:44.35
forestandtrees
Um.
21:47.31
Jeremy
What we believe about all these things and then we just react according to what we already believe about that.
21:55.40
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
21:55.98
Jeremy
This got deep This is like you and I staring at each other's souls for a moment.
22:05.90
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, well let's ah, let's see how deep the soul hole goes right.
22:13.31
Jeremy
Um I was getting weird.
22:15.87
forestandtrees
Think ah, your do you want to go to your question now in 10 You're saving years for the end. Okay, all right sounds good. Um, let's see.
22:19.18
Jeremy
I'm saving mine for the end. Yep.
22:31.48
forestandtrees
Okay, so okay, so let's get back to this idea of um, the what is the mission if we're making converts if we're if we're convincing people that this is good work. This is the work they should be doing um because because Paul talks about this throughout the whole. Chapter chapter 10 he he has this burden on his heart specifically for Israel right? like Israel that you guys are so close if you could just understand so verse 1819 but I ask have the people of Israel actually heard the message. Yes, they have but I ask did the people really understand it. Yes, they did and then verse twenty one it goes but regarding Israel god said all day long I opened my arms to them but they were disobedient and rebellious. So it's I don't as I was contemplating. You know what what's Paul getting at here clearly he he feels this kinship with israelites because he himself is. Part of that clan and he's like wishing that they would just convert and just like accept Jesus right now and as I was reading this I was I was just kind of imagining so what would that look like if Paul got his wish right? like that would mean there would be no jewish people like the jewish religion would not exist as we know it today. Which we kind of talked about um in in chapter one I believe of this this idea of like christianity being the the new version of of judaism which means it would effectively eliminate an entire religion and I couldn't help but think like that would be like the decimation of jewish culture like we wouldn't have jewish culture as we have it today and wouldn't.
24:07.12
forestandtrees
That be a bad thing and of course you can apply this to just all religions and I don't know so so again, it goes to the whole like making converts thing like flipping the whole world over to your side. Would mean there'd be no diversity of religion if if christianity got their way and my question for you is shouldn't we be celebrating Diversity shouldn't even religious diversity isn't that like a good thing in human culture.
24:35.29
Jeremy
Yes, is the answer all right? So here's the way out I would word this one of the huge problems for christians is that we think following Jesus means you follow Jesus the way I follow Jesus so.
24:39.17
forestandtrees
Nice.
24:55.00
Jeremy
When I'm making a convert I'm going to make you into a christian the way I am a christian and the problem with that is it doesn't leave room for the uniqueness and the diversity and the beauty of the holy spirit and the way in which the holy spirit. Can bring us all together and so I think if you look at you know the the history of missions work. This has been you know and a problem in certain contexts where missionariess come in and hey we're gonna have you believe in Jesus but we're gonna have you believe in Jesus the way we believe in Jesus culturally. Where you have to dress like us and behave like us and do you know? So now. It's not just a belief. It's now I'm um, imparting my culture onto your culture as well which you know negates diversity and can smother people where they're like well I like Jesus but why do I have to. Do all these other things. The way you do them and so I would say at its best is when we create space for the holy spirit to say hey you can follow Jesus in a way that it may look different than the way I follow Jesus and god's big enough to figure that out. And that is where I see the beauty so I would say you should be able to go to a church in America a church in China a church in Africa and they should be radically different expressions of the same god they should be unique cultural.
26:29.28
Jeremy
Ways of following Jesus but if you said hey I sang the exact same song and all of them and heard the exact same sermon in all of them I would say oh that's a bummer because that means there's no local expression. No local nuance to that of how they're engaging with god. And you know I think that's not the best way to do it and I think it even that's on a macro level even on a micro level if I'm you know trying to convert somebody or trying to hey I won't they want you to follow Jesus I I probably am putting pressure on you to do the things that the way they make sense to me and I think again this is where Keens can get. Funky with this and then it gets really hard for people. It's like well I I like Jesus but I don't know all these other things you're telling me I gotta do and we know you have to do all these too like these are all part of it. Um, and and what what I'd push on a little bit is I don't think Paul is anti-jewish at all. I think what Paul's argument and we talk about this a little bit in chapter 9 even with Greg Paul's argument's like look the jews are thinking they've got their own thing in isolation and god is trying to bring all these people together not to negate their uniqueness but to say all all these people can find their own expression in.
27:30.47
forestandtrees
Um.
27:44.15
Jeremy
The diversity the uniqueness of god and I think you see this so romans you know 10 verses 12 through 13 Paul says Jew and gentile are the same in this respect they have the same lord who gives generously to all who call on him for everyone who calls in the name of the lord will be saved. Paul's point being look jews. And gentiles can both find what they are looking for in in god like they they in that you know again and that culture that's a radical like no these are different gods and these are different. You know lifestyles and Paul's like yes and they can both be the same in this regard that they can both find what they need in god. Now I know we're not in ah, chapter 11 yet. But if you read the next verse and 11 verse one says Paul parts I ask then has god rejected his own people. The nation of Israel of course not like Paul's reiterating like god's not rejecting the jews he's inviting the jews in.
28:36.76
forestandtrees
Ah.
28:42.20
Jeremy
In this new thing that god is doing and you know some of the hesitation. There were the jews opting out or as we saw in chapter 9 the jews saying I don't need to do any of this. We're automatically in like we're born into this It's like no no god's doing a new thing and all of us can find this but I think it's. I think this is far more limitation on us than it's any limitation on god I think Paul's argument is like god is so big that jews and gentiles can be the same in this respect and that would have been a bold claim you know for Paul to make in that time.
29:17.76
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean so right? So I I get that that was probably like controversial and like big news at the time. Um the cultural shift I guess I would say that that's probably not very controversial now this idea that like multiple cultures can have multiple expressions of christianity. I guess what I what but what I was saying was like what about like multiple religions like we live in a world that has buddhism islam judaism right? Like if again if christians got their way those religions as we know them wouldn't exist right? like they would have to fundamentally change the doctrine. Of their beliefs and replace it with Jesus is that right.
29:56.24
Jeremy
In in the event that Christians had all control and could do that sure I don't think I don't I don't think we're gonna be in that day and I don't think it'd be healthy if if that ever came to that What I.
30:04.29
forestandtrees
Um, but isn't that isn't that the good isn't that the goal though like shouldn't what should as you you as a christian shouldn you think that would be healthy if everyone like if everyone believed in Jesus.
30:16.75
Jeremy
So let's you know, let's take a muslim you know muslim believer and so what? what would you want? What would be the blue sky. Well the blue sky for me would be like can I introduce you to Jesus the way I've experienced Jesus and.
30:32.98
forestandtrees
A.
30:35.57
Jeremy
Can I show you jesus the way I've seen Jesus and so not the way that maybe you've seen Jesus through Islam but the way that I've seen Jesus and then literally I would say let Jesus run from there so it doesn't mean stop being a muslim. It means figure out what is Jesus asking of you what does this mean for you and if I'm friends with you I'm going to journey into that with you of what would this look like for you and you know if someone's buddhist and that's how they practice and that's what makes sense to them I would say I want to introduce you to Jesus the way I've seen Jesus. And then figure out what does this mean for you like what is Jesus asking of you and I think rather rather than saying leave all of that behind going. Okay, engage in this with Jesus and figure out what does that look like and you know so I think there are people and I've met them who would consider themselves. Muslim christians and they would do it in a way that would make most christians very uncomfortable because they would say no you you can't do all those other muslim things and they would say well I still do x y and z but I follow Jesus you know and it's like there are really unique expressions of this and.
31:32.48
forestandtrees
Um.
31:48.44
Jeremy
You know in my experience. This is very controversial because most of the christians I know are not okay with this and it's no, you gotta be a christian the way we're Christian you gotta leave that and you know come to our church and I just think it's it's not that simple and god's not that small and so I I would say in a perfect world I just want people to meet Jesus and experience Jesus the way I have.
31:52.80
forestandtrees
Um.
32:08.44
Jeremy
And then see what the holy spirit does in their life and I think there can be I mean exponential amounts of expressions of how you could follow Jesus in your culture in your you know with your perspective with your journey and god's big enough to figure out how to navigate all of that. What I would say is if we're gonna say all religions are equal. All religions have equal amounts of truth no matter what they teach I would just say no I don't I don't think that's true I think Jesus to Paul's argument Jesus is the thing and so whether you're a jew or a gentile or a muslim or a buddhist or a hindu. Or whatever like we want you to experience Jesus and then figure out what that means and so if a Jew and a gentile who are both following Jesus are following Jesus the exact same way. They've probably lost something of what it meant to be jewish or what it meant to be non-jewish right? like There should be some difference there in the way that they follow Jesus? um, at least I think.
33:04.82
forestandtrees
Ah.
33:12.51
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I'm I'm not sure what to think about it like as I was even like thinking about this question, it made me realize like I've also like complained about the opposite in ah in previous questions about like why is there's so much diversity of um, like there's so like the fact there's so many different denominations. Of christianity like if god was more clear like that like that seemed like a knock against christianity in in my mind of like you know what? Why is it so ambiguous that it can be interpreted like thousands of different ways. Um, and I guess you could kind of Zoom out more and say like you know, a lot of people like to argue like.
33:34.17
Jeremy
And.
33:49.78
forestandtrees
Maybe there is some vague god you know, amorphous thing and you know different cultures have understood him in different ways and that's why you know there. There's so much diversity of religion globally. Ah I don't know like yeah to me. That makes sense I don't know I guess I'm not exactly sure that I would feel comfortable saying like um, a muslim needs to know Jesus the way that I do that I mean maybe I don't know Jesus but um, yeah I don't I don't know is like is that open minded is is that narrow minded I'm not. Know I'm still thinking about it am I is my question articulate for you.
34:27.23
Jeremy
But ah well I don't know if I think I don't know if that's a question as much as a reaction. Um I I think even so I'm at the point now in my life even Christian denominations.
34:45.30
Jeremy
I'm choosing to see the beauty in them like one of the things that our family has done the last few weeks we've we've been going to this episcopal church just to kind of check it out and get a totally different experience and I'm going into it choosing to believe the beauty of a different tradition rather than being skeptical.
34:48.27
forestandtrees
Um.
35:02.72
Jeremy
Meaning there are things that they do It's very different than what I've grown up very different than my own tradition but rather than saying oh that's that's stupid or I don't understand it or why do they do like that I'm just choosing to give them the benefit of the doubt and go and these are Jesus followers doing some things differently than I've done them and so you know on my way out last weekend i. Crossed myself with holy water for the first time in my life I don't necessarily believe that the holy water is anything magical but I'm trying to embrace a different tradition a different way of understanding. Ah you know how to follow Jesus and you know it's funny. Our our kids took communion and you know eucharist in a liturgical setting is very different than in the evangelical setting and so you know the way they invite us forward and you kneel on this bench and you hold your hand out and they put away for and then you know priest comes by with ah with a cup of and it's wine. You know and.
35:46.18
forestandtrees
Um.
35:56.66
Jeremy
You know my kids were were freaking out like Wow It's real wine. You know we've never never seen real wine. You know at at communion like that was a big deal to them and I got I made a joke I was like you guys know that's not even that's not even the most shocking part about that communion right? and they're like what do you mean? Dad I'm like I think they believe that that.
36:06.43
forestandtrees
Um.
36:15.59
Jeremy
That real wine just became Jesus's blood they're like what like yeah like you know the priest was blessing. It. So I'm pretty sure is as I understand it. That's you know they believe in chance substantiation and that's what that is and you know my my twelve year old's like I don't I don't believe that dead and I'm like yeah I don't think I believe that either. But. You know that's that's how they experience it so to me rather than that being like a knock of like what are these jokers doing I'm just choosing at this point in my life to see the beauty of that of like here are Jesus followers doing it a different way than I do it and maybe they. Maybe they're into onto something that I don't see or I don't know or something beautiful and so even the denominations but then beyond that you know if there are people following Jesus within the world religions. Awesome like that's the point he's following Jesus not to make a bunch of cultural christians.
37:05.68
forestandtrees
Um.
37:11.21
Jeremy
So make a bunch of people following Jesus.
37:11.72
forestandtrees
I guess this goes back to what I asked you long time ago in her hebrews season about like what you know why does god care if you get his name right? like is it like basically the question is like is it possible that we're all worshipping the same god and we just have a completely different. Vision of him right? like for hinduism like would you say there's they're still worshipping Jesus but they interpret Jesus as these this polytheistic millions of different like gods that that look nothing like um, what you see.
37:40.78
Jeremy
no no I've I would say the gods of hinduism look nothing like Jesus to me so I don't say that as an indictment on hindus I just would say that doesn't look like Jesus to me and maybe there is a hindu god.
37:48.53
forestandtrees
He.
37:59.39
Jeremy
Looks more like Jesus I I spent some time in Nepal which was a you know Hindu nation and I would say very different I did not get Jesus vibes from the hinduism I saw so to me, it's not yeah there we're all worshiping Jesus. We're just calling different names I don't think that at all and I think you have to look at. You know there are very violent images of god that don't look like Jesus and some of those are in christianity and some of those are in islam and some of those are in hinduism and I would say if it doesn't look like Jesus it doesn't look like Jesus.
38:26.29
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, as you say like the old testament.
38:37.33
Jeremy
And so I don't care if you call it Christian or hindu or muslim like the goal is a Jesus looking god because I think that's what god really looks like and so anything that distorts that is an issue is an obstacle to overcome to see god as god really is.
38:56.86
forestandtrees
Yeah, okay I don't know I mean I I mean I was going to say like what? what about all the violent depictions of God in the bible. Be you address that So that's fine. We've we've talked about that plenty of times. Ah.
39:03.75
Jeremy
Right? I would put in the exact same category. Yeah that there are I think there are christians that don't follow Jesus the way they think right because their god looks nothing like Jesus and so I don't think it. It doesn't matter what you call yourself. It's like. Are you are you experiencing Jesus? are you does your god look like Jesus and if it does great I don't really care what you call it or call yourself. But if you know if we're going to say all these are just the same I would say then you haven't seen Jesus because Jesus is a radically unique expression of god. And I think it's the most beautiful expression of god and I think that's what will change the world. So to me I think you can miss it on any religion and you can also probably find Jesus in any religion if you are looking for Jesus.
39:42.00
forestandtrees
Um.
39:55.76
forestandtrees
Yeah, okay, yeah, and then I don't I feel like I could keep keep pushing here but I don't like what about secular humanism for example, like what if you believe there is no god but you believe that the. And there should be no doctrine. We shouldn't try to convert people but the overall principle is we should love one another we should care for 1 another like would you say that looks like Jesus is that close enough or is that like not Jesus to you.
40:24.12
Jeremy
I would say you have you have echoes of Jesus that you know if you're like hey I'm an atheist and I believe you I should love my enemies. Okay I don't know I don't know why you believe that but cool because so do I and the reason I believe that is because that's what Jesus did and taught.
40:34.82
forestandtrees
Um.
40:43.92
Jeremy
Right? So I would say you have an echo of that you maybe got it from a different source or you don't know the source or you just believe it right? like I don't know you know? Um, but I can trace it back to why I believe I supposed to love my enemies because that's what I find in Jesus so again I think you can follow Jesus. In any of these ways. But the goal is is Jesus the goal is the person of Jesus. So even with an atheist or a secular humanist I'd be like I would love to show you why I have come to that conclusion. You know, like cool you believe you should love your enemies I do too can I tell you why I believe that and then like.
41:05.14
forestandtrees
Um.
41:12.60
forestandtrees
Yeah.
41:20.51
Jeremy
See what you think about Jesus like like we agree on that.
41:23.42
forestandtrees
So it's like the would you say like the the person is more important than the principles in that sense. Ok, ok, um.
41:27.57
Jeremy
Yeah, the principles flow out of the person. So the principles are great like loving your enemy. That's a great principle but it's great because it's Jesus it comes from Jesus so I think again that's one of the most that's one of the most beautiful things that Jesus taught so the world will be better.
41:42.58
forestandtrees
And.
41:46.00
Jeremy
If everybody believe that and you believe I think you're most likely to believe that if you fall in love with the person of Jesus and decide hey I'm going to follow what what he does.
41:52.17
forestandtrees
Yeah, this yeah this seems like this. Maybe this is a breakthrough I feel like this is where we differ perhaps of like I don't to to me. It seems like.
42:03.81
Jeremy
This is where Mr Swatson places ah
42:07.92
forestandtrees
But this I don't know this seems profound to me, you're blowing my mind right now because I I don't know I mean we've talked about this before right? like ah a Christian who does bad things is a worse person than an atheist who does good things you know I mean like if you what if what if I'm an atheist and i. Deny that Jesus existed or deny the resurrection. But I think we should love everyone or what if I'm a Christian and I think you know Jesus and the resurrection the miracles that all happened. But I think we should all like buy guns and keep immigrants out and ah take. Take as much resources as we want and you know it's every man for himself. What you you know? what? I'm saying like wouldn't that when so the the Christian who lives an immoral life is. You're saying that person's is doing it better because they have the person.
42:50.10
Jeremy
But what's your question.
43:03.30
forestandtrees
Um, Jesus versus like the atheist who's trying to do good and doesn't have the person. Okay.
43:08.36
Jeremy
No, you're you're you're jumping. Ah I would say no because you ask what's more important the Principal or the person and I would say I think the person's more important because you you can separate principles and you know I don't think principles by themselves are gonna change your life. The person will and.
43:16.72
forestandtrees
Um.
43:25.68
forestandtrees
Um.
43:25.74
Jeremy
I would say you know your 2 analogies that atheist probably has far more of the principles of Jesus than the christian does further but I'm not right? but you're asking me to judge both of them to which I'm not.
43:31.25
forestandtrees
Right? That's what I'm saying that atheist who has the principles but doesn't have the person versus the Christian who has the person but not the principles. Okay.
43:43.15
Jeremy
Qualified or asked to judge either 1 of them. Let's stop my job all I'm telling you is I would want to introduce as many people to the person of Jesus as I physically can and that's what I'm called to do so what? you know which one's better or worse I don't know.
43:54.78
forestandtrees
Um.
44:00.89
Jeremy
I think we should all look more like Jesus so I would say it to the Christian who is doing all the things you mentioned I would say it to the atheist who's doing the things you know and I might say the atheist seems closer.
44:13.86
forestandtrees
Um, okay, okay, yeah I I got you? Yeah yeah, this is perfect.
44:16.17
Jeremy
Yeah I feel like this is a perfect setup for my question now because this is gonna be really good. All right? So we've just primed this pump Jeff and I are on totally different pages here. So this is gonna be good. So this this is my question then this is off the same verses. You just asked me. And I was staring at these and I thought oh I got it I have a a fun one for you. Okay, so to reiterate verse 16 we had to write this but Paul says not everyone welcomes the good news for Isaiah the prophet said Lord who has believed our message I like the way because. Welcome just sounds kind of like an interesting way to phrase that you know David Bentley Hart says but not all heed the good tidings I thought's a funny way to phrase that some did not heed the good tidings. So here's the argument. Okay Paul says verse eighteen that all Israel has heard the good news.
44:59.90
forestandtrees
Um.
45:13.55
Jeremy
And then in verse nineteen says that all Israel has understood it. But then in verse sixteen that they have chosen not to welcome it or to heed the good tidings. Okay, this is this is Paul describing Israel well as I looked at that I thought that's my friend Jeff he has heard the good news. He has understood the good news and he has now chosen not to welcome the good news. So my question is do you feel any connection to Israel in this regard? Yes, or no.
45:46.55
forestandtrees
Call me Israel to quote Moby Dick ah all right? So yes, I've definitely heard the good news like I like I've said before like maybe I've heard it too many times. Maybe that's my problem. Um, and I certainly used to. Welcome it right? because I used to be a christian you know like when I was 3 or 4 years old I I guess you could say I welcomed it then and and many times since then and the the question is do I understand it like do I understand what the gospel is or.
46:20.19
Jeremy
No, no, no, that's no this is not my question. So no, you're you're mixing my question up so me rephrase it? Okay so Paul says Israel has heard the good news. You have to Israel has understood the good news you have to.
46:22.15
forestandtrees
Why it makes sense. That's not your question. Okay, okay, okay, um.
46:38.31
Jeremy
I'm saying both of those are true for you. But then he says Israel chose not to welcome it. That's what I'm saying for you, you're choosing now or whatever phrase not to heed the good tidings. You know David Benleyheart so you do you have heard it. You do understand it. But you've chosen not to embrace it that is.
46:41.50
forestandtrees
Ah.
46:50.87
forestandtrees
Um.
46:58.13
Jeremy
Ah, just logically a parallel right? there you know from what I'm reading the text. So do you resonate with that going. Yeah me in Israel we're like we're the same in that regard because you have heard it you have understood it and you have chosen not to welcome. It does that make sense.
47:03.67
forestandtrees
Um.
47:12.17
forestandtrees
Yeah I get I guess it makes sense. Yeah I mean where I wanted to go with that was to say that like I feel like I don't understand it like that's that's the problem but is that is that not a good place to go with this question.
47:26.83
Jeremy
You I mean your answer I would say you you have understood it because I knew you when you were a christian so I don't think it's like yeah I don't the the premise of this ah makes no sense to me now you may say today you're choosing not to welcome it because it no longer makes sense then you know maybe that's your answer.
47:33.31
forestandtrees
Like ah.
47:44.15
Jeremy
But I I would not say of you that you never understood christianity.
47:44.67
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I okay sure that that that's fair I'd say like I I understood it um earlier in life when it was first introduced to me I don't know like as much as much as a a child this kind of goes back to the. Childhood indoctrination thing like did I understand it or was I just pressured into it but whatever. Yeah I definitely like intellectualized it understood it as as I grew up recommitted my life. You know like committed to doing ministry all these things but I don't know like the you know I feel like a big part of my reason for. Deconverting and definitely a big part of like me wanting to do this podcast is because like it's as I said in more in hebrews about the blood atonement things. It's one of those things where it's like the more I think about it the more it doesn't make sense just in terms of like the actual gospel message of the atonement which you know we we talk about that. For hours and I remember like on on um, good Friday a couple weeks ago I went back and listened to our conversation to try to hear your explanation for the blood atonement again and say like I understand it in terms of like yeah I I understand the logic of. How you're explaining it and how it gets there but I guess like it it still doesn't intuitively make sense to me of like how the blood sacrifice works how this is a good thing. What you know why? the the death bear own resurrection of Jesus like.
49:15.59
forestandtrees
Makes everything better for us. Do you know what? I mean by that. Okay, um.
49:17.69
Jeremy
Sure so do you do you feel a connection to Israel.
49:25.21
forestandtrees
Yeah, yes, that was my initial answer call me Israel. Oh yeah, because I wanted to I wanted to give up a more classy reference because I started the podcast by quoting pinky in the brain.
49:28.30
Jeremy
Know oh and and I know but it never heard you say yes, you just say call me Israel.
49:40.26
Jeremy
Though The but like when you read this, Do you find yourself resonating with them like well yeah, they had good reason not to welcome it. You know I mean like do you see yourself in that or is this like no that was there. They had their thing I have my thing.
49:54.90
forestandtrees
Um, oh yeah, I guess I don't I I probably don't resonate with them a whole lot in terms of like do I resonate with like what it's like to be a first century jew who sees Jesus or like is alive during that time of Jesus and chooses not. To accept the message. Um I guess I would say no I I don't resonate in that way. Um I guess I resonate with like you know if someone was like born raised jewish in the same way that I was born and raised Christian I don't I guess in some ways I'm kind of. The opposite of that right? because I'm like I'm choosing to go a different direction than than how I was brought up versus like if you were if you were born raised into this jewish culture and then you're being asked to go a different direction by following Jesus. Um. So I don't but I don't resonate with the the people who are just staying the course in terms of where where they were raised I don't know does that make sense. Okay.
50:57.24
Jeremy
Um, yeah, so you're you're you're saying you don't understand it anymore.
51:05.98
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I feel like I don't understand I don't know I understand it in terms of like I know what the arguments are but I don't understand it in terms of like yeah it doesn't it doesn't really like resonate with me. On a heart level. Yeah like um I don't know like ah like I was thinking about ah an Easter you know people were posting pictures of their family and their kids and saying and when they had captions that said like.
51:22.92
Jeremy
Um, yeah, yeah.
51:40.49
forestandtrees
I'm so glad he rose from the dead. That's how I have hope for tomorrow or people will say like because he has risen. That's how I know that everything's going to be great or that's how I know that it's hard right now at things that will be good in the long run and I felt this this weird dilemma of like oh I want to like. I want to like this Facebook post because like I like the picture. It's like I'm I'm glad to see you and your family are looking good and doing well and you know your kids are grown up since last time I saw them and whatever but I'm like I don't really like resonate with the caption like it doesn't it doesn't seem very coherent to me so that that that was just like kind of it.
52:14.22
Jeremy
Ah I do not endorse the caption.
52:17.29
forestandtrees
Yeah, so that was just kind of like an indicator to me of like it's interesting to think about how for a lot of people. It seems to just like intuitively make sense on on an emotional level and that's what I've been thinking about with with your question I Guess maybe I got too hung up on the the they understood it part Because. For me I don't know like maybe I'm I'm too stuck in my head but like like I made a ticktock recently where I said like I feel like religion has broken my brain like maybe I've thought about it so much that it doesn't make sense anymore like the way that um if you say a word over and over again. It loses all meaning.
52:51.96
Jeremy
Um, that's say that's an interesting parallel.
52:53.92
forestandtrees
Ah, that it ah um, but yeah, that's I Guess that's my answer is ah I used to understand it and accept it and then when I tried to go deeper going. You know trying to understand it further. Was what made me no longer welcome. It? Okay, great.
53:13.87
Jeremy
Um, no I appreciate that and I think a lot of people if they were honest would say they had a similar journey as you and so they just stopped.
53:29.64
Jeremy
Asking deeper questions so that they could stay where they were you know mean like I like this I want to believe this and if I keep asking hard questions I don't know where I'll go so like let's just stop asking the questions.
53:33.78
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
53:41.26
forestandtrees
Yeah I Do I Do wonder about that because I've heard I don't know I've I've run into a couple of friends of mine who are believers who who say they really enjoy the podcast and they and they've said something to the effect of like I Really Appreciate. You're asking these questions because these are questions that like probably a lot of us have that. Like we I don't know we don't feel like we can ask or or you know it's good to hear these these questions like represented in this way. Um, yeah, which makes me think like so where what does that mean for them of like where are they at because I don't know that's something that's that's just like it's weird to me that.
54:08.93
Jeremy
Um.
54:20.27
forestandtrees
These ideas of like the doctrines of christianity are so mainstream they're so widely accepted you know and they seem like to be somewhat incoherent and when I try to and analyze them on a deeper level. But.
54:37.38
Jeremy
Well yeah, a lot of things in the faith are at at service level logical contradictions. You know God is fully uses fully human fully God Um, what? yeah like there is element to it where it's like at how.
54:38.12
forestandtrees
Yeah.
54:48.17
forestandtrees
Um.
54:53.32
Jeremy
Or you know, explain the trinity. How is god 3 in one like those are those are hard things to you know reconcile and so I totally appreciate it and I would just say I applaud you for continuing to ask questions continuing to go even if it.
54:58.20
forestandtrees
Um.
55:12.40
Jeremy
You go into an area. You're like I don't know where this takes me I don't know what this means and I think that takes courage So I applaud you for that.
55:18.98
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, well I'll I'll take all the the applause I can get Jeremy that ah, okay, this was this was a totally rammbly episode I feel like I don't know. Do you feel like we covered some good ground here.
55:26.17
Jeremy
There we go.
55:35.81
Jeremy
I like it. Yeah I mean it's no more rambly than our other ones sometimes we just we go where it goes you know.
55:39.41
forestandtrees
Oh oh Okay, good yeah man maybe it's just me, maybe ah maybe my brain is is just fully broken right now. But that's good if if you if you think we're on track then I trust you? um.
55:53.26
Jeremy
You You're you're saying you saying the word too many times you got to just move on. Just let it go.
56:00.19
forestandtrees
Just move on. Okay, well yeah, thanks everybody. We appreciate listening and ah put up with a rambling for so long we will ramble on in chapter Eleven next week see you then.