Romans 9 - Just don’t think about it - with Greg Boyd

We have been predestined to talk about Calvinism in Romans 9 and we’ve brought a very special friend! Pastor, Theologian, and Author, Greg Boyd has been elected to lend some scholarly wisdom.

Topics
Is Calvinism true? Do we have free will?
Would you sacrifice yourself to save others?
Are the Israelites God’s chosen people or is Everyone?
Why does God choose some people over others?
Does God Love everyone or Hate certain people?
Can we choose to believe? 
Is God okay with us asking questions?
What of those who are destined for destruction? 

Check out Greg’s work
https://reknew.org/

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Email us at ​​forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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Transcript

00:00.00
Jeremy
Well hello friends and welcome back. We are super excited for today just just get ready today is gonna be amazing I am here my name is Jeremy and I'm joined by my friend. Jeff.

00:13.14
forestandtrees
Well if I could swim after forty days and I'm podcasting in the crashing waves lift me up. Yeah chart jars of clay exactly you got the reference this time. Incredible.

00:22.98
Greg Boyd
Um, dear God What did I get myself into.

00:23.84
Jeremy
Well jars a clay there. Wow I was I was raised in the church. My man I have seen jars of Clay I met them a few times. Oh yeah, this is my will house I'm ah I'm very very much into that.

00:28.60
Greg Boyd
12

00:32.95
forestandtrees
All right? Oh cool.

00:38.71
Greg Boyd
You never heard of that son I had no idea.

00:40.97
Jeremy
Right? Some of our listeners were like what was that we have not heard that well today on the pod we're getting into romans chapter 9 which is a doozy of a chapter and we're gonna explore whether Paul and god are calvinists now. You're not familiar with calvinism. This is also referred to as reformed theology this is the belief that things are predetermined by god some would say god decides who is saved who is not saved others would say that god causes. Everything. And calvinism really emphasizes the sovereignty of god and the authority of the of the bible and this is something that I'm ah ah personally a fan of open theism and Greg or Jeff my friend who. Does the podcast was teasing me and in preparation of this going I can't wait to get to romans nine and I thought why don't I bring in my mentor who has shaped my theology on this and we'll just ask him questions so we are stoked to welcome my theological mentor to weigh in on this debate. Mr. Greg Boyd welcome Greg.

01:50.96
Greg Boyd
Okay, it's good to be here. Thanks for having me on joining me and Jeff.

01:54.95
Jeremy
So he if you're only listening to this, you're gonna have to pull up the video at some point because Greg is rocking some red glasses and we were just commenting how good he looks so you guys.

02:02.41
Greg Boyd
Oh you it' it's my bo look you know I still haven't found what I'm waiting for so I won't I'm still cool that 2 signs.

02:04.91
forestandtrees
Very cool. Yeah.

02:10.59
Jeremy
Wow so much singing today so much so much music I have to think about this. Well if you don't know Greg he is a an incredible theologian.

02:13.92
forestandtrees
Everyone's bringing the music. Yeah, what's your song jeremy.

02:25.67
Jeremy
He's also the pastor of Woodland Hills Church which he helped to cofound many years ago. He is the author or co-author of 22 books and counting. That's the last count I have he's been married to an amazing woman named Shelley for more than 30 years she is

02:40.71
Greg Boyd
30 we're going on 45 dude four to oh yeah, 44 horse for 45 yeah we're old.

02:44.10
Jeremy
Are you wow it's you're older than I thought just an incredible guy and this is just fun because romans nine is hard and yeah Jeff and I are just gonna let it rip and. Greg has helped me so many times so we feel like this is gonna be a fun if you can read romans nine and not be be a calvinist. We're gonna we're gonna see if it's possible today. We we think Greg is it possible.

03:10.36
Greg Boyd
Grew it only if God's predestined to be possible. Otherwise we're sunk.

03:10.38
forestandtrees
Yeah, absolutely.

03:17.78
Jeremy
Well fun fact too. I felt like this is worth throwing in there I think a lot of people who know you don't know this little tidbet you actually were a calvinist at one point in your life.

03:27.76
Greg Boyd
Yeah that's that's true for a couple of years well well in seminary I've always told people that I totally get how someone exegetically can be a calvinist um romans nine being a classic case I mean that's kind of the locus classicus of. Calvinistic thinking and I didn't have alternative ways of getting around that. Um so I totally get why people are calvinists from an exegeical point of view. What I've never quite got is how anyone could enjoy it because even when I was it I didn't like it. You know it's like.

03:59.83
forestandtrees
Ah.

04:03.40
Greg Boyd
Like I gotta believe this but I never got into that you know oh for the glory of god you know he he chose me and and he could have chose anyone but he chose me and and as long as there's some people who are predestined not to get it that I can't enjoy getting it. It's like you know. I'm glad I got of of all the starving people the world I get to have this feast but right outside the glass window are all these old starving people who are not elect and I'm supposed to enjoy my dinner while they're looking in starving you know and and then you ask the the host was Jesus Christ hey can we share some of this salvation food with these people that are starving. He goes no. See well is it because there's not enough to go around. Oh. There's plenty to go around I could I could save everybody if I wanted to but it glorifies me more just to choose you and so you enjoy the dinner while those folks starve to death. Oh and by the way they folks starving to death one of them might be your little daughter or little son or your spouse or similar loved 1 but but at least you got saved. So enjoy yourself for the rest of eternity while they suffer I couldn't do that.

05:02.64
Jeremy
So the idea being if God has yeah God has chosen some people and you and you get to enjoy that you you have to enjoy that with the acknowledgement that then God has sent others to hell and there's nothing they can do And yeah.

05:14.53
Greg Boyd
And that's it. That's it and and in some ways it feels like that it endeth to me you know and maybe yeah I've had 1 person tell me that I was predestined not to be a kelvinist because you know if you can't get into it. You can't get into it like i.

05:29.22
forestandtrees
Um, no.

05:32.37
Greg Boyd
I Just can't in you know I I could never enter in V Ah you know oh the joy of theluctant and he's altogether, beautiful and altogether Lovely and it's like well I'd be a lot lovelier if you would save everybody. You could save instead of doing this little any meaning my anymore I choose you and you will let go so.

05:50.52
Greg Boyd
So I the the internal conflict for me I think I was destined to eventually outgrow calvinism and and finally found other ways of interpreting those tough passages Romans nine being the classic case.

06:02.20
forestandtrees
You know I I was actually looking into determinism as well kind of the the secular version of calvinism because I've seen a lot of people argue that based on physics based on Neuroscience we don't really have free will it's just an illusion. And basically coming to the same conclusion of your people don't like this idea like it can drive people crazy or can make them depressed and a lot of people will say like yeah if if this idea makes you uncomfortable then just don't think about it too much because it can it can drive you nuts and I was also watching a video of ah John Piper you know, ah famously a calvinist. Um.

06:35.66
Greg Boyd
Yeah.

06:38.34
forestandtrees
Basically saying the same thing I'm just saying like yeah this is true. You don't have a choice but you know you just need to act as if you do have a choice because otherwise you won't be motivated to try to save people or spread the gospel or anything.

06:50.99
Greg Boyd
Well, you know that's it Jeff yeah Charles Pers who's a real famous american philosopher 1 the founders of pragmatism and he he made the cakes that that the that any belief. Um, you show the the. The depth of your commitment to a belief by your willingness to act on it when acting counts. So if you really believe something you'll act on it when acting counts. So if I say to the folks in this house you know or if I'm in the theater and I say hey guys I think that the building's going to blow up here in 2 minutes um well if i.

07:17.58
forestandtrees
Um.

07:25.89
Greg Boyd
Make a beeline for the doorway. That's one indication that I really believe that if I don't make a beeline for the doorway. That's one indication that I don't really believe that because I'm not willing to act when acting counts. So so here's the question is how do you act on Calvinism because.

07:37.77
forestandtrees
Yeah, exactly.

07:40.99
Greg Boyd
Every choice I make I have to act as though it was up to me to make that choice So I can only illustrate my belief that it's up to me to believe with every choice I make I'm acting on the assumption that it's up to me to believe this and and to to choose this So calvinism is a belief. There's no way to act such that you illustrate your belief that it's not up to you to determine this.. There's no way to Illustrate. It is up to God to determine this and so at best I'd say Calvinism is a pragmatically meaningless Belief. You can't act on It. You.

08:15.40
forestandtrees
It's all it's all theoretical Exactly yeah out.

08:18.69
Greg Boyd
But but yeah, if there's no way it can make a difference in your behavior. Um it because you have to act as though it was up to you as though the future was not yet settled and so but I I Tell f is that. You're gonna act like an open theist I don't care what you believe but you're gonna act as though you're an open theist because that's the only way to act in open open the really just says hey you know the way you experienced the world. Well, that's pretty accurate that that's just saying that the way you experience the world is way it is.

08:35.94
forestandtrees
Exactly exactly.

08:36.76
Jeremy
I Love it.

08:45.74
Jeremy
Well I think that sounds great but let's let's suppose someone listening or watching this is going. Yeah I would love that to be true, but that's not what the bible says. So let's let's let the bible. Let's let the bible rattle us a little bit and we'll see if we can still.

08:56.25
Greg Boyd
Um, my God's fault.

08:57.69
forestandtrees
Ah.

09:03.24
Jeremy
Still hold to this goodness that Greg's bringing I want to start with with a verse that is kind of tangental but I'm curious your your response to this because in verse 3 paululs says this my heart is filled with bitter sorrow and undending grief for my people. My jewish brothers and sisters I would be willing.

09:05.78
Greg Boyd
Um, all right.

09:22.80
Jeremy
To be forever cursed cut off from Christ if that would save them now I've always thought this is such a weird verse I think it's one of the most absolutely selfless things someone could say like if I you know believe that Jesus is the source of. All that is good to say I would forego that you know for the sake of others and I would just say you know we we talked a lot in this podcast of a lot of the negative images that Paul gets some of the the things that people associate with them I love this. This is like the most loving thing. But if I'm honest I find this very hard to relate with because if you have seen how good god can be I I just think that would be so hard to say I want to give it up and yet at the same time that is the most selfless Jesus looking thing you could do at the same time. So I'm curious. What's your take on this is it just me where that be hard to say just to forego all that you know in Jesus if that would allow others to experience. Jesus.

10:25.10
Greg Boyd
Yeah, it's a really good question. Um, do you ever see that that that movie with Rob Williams what dreams may come. It's it's an old. It's like is I twenty years old now.

10:31.43
Jeremy
I Have not.

10:32.87
forestandtrees
I Yeah I think I saw it like in in like sociology class or something like in middle school.

10:42.52
Greg Boyd
Um, and and a lot of it's pretty sappy and stupid and and and and whatever. But but there's 1 scene there where his wife ended up committed suing commiting suicide and the story buys into this idea that if you commit suicide to go to hell and so this guy leaves heaven and goes to hell searching for her and he finally finds her. Ah, but the deal is if if you linger in hell for too long. You get frozen in there and and he's with her and and she doesn't recognize him because she's in her own bitterness. You know her own own self-created hell but he's with her and he decides to stay with her even though he says I know that in about 2 minutes I'm gonna be talking bat shit crazy. Im gonna be frozen down here in this limbo landmb without you but at least we'll be together and so he chooses that and there's something you know tremendously I think heroic about that I it's like um, you know and I don't want you to be here alone I would rather give up what I have. It's gonna mean that that you get out of this and so I think that's the kind of hard is that not that it's possible. He's not seeing this could actually happen but hypothetically if there was some way for me to just give it all and and it would result in their salvation when then I do that moses said the same thing you know it kind of a prophetic tradition like go ahead and take me if if if that's what it takes. Which is really godly. A godly heart because that's what god does to us. He's willing to go to the furthest extreme possible out of love for us in order to be in relationship with us and that's what the cross is all about it's god diving into our humanity and then diving into our sin in ah in ah in our judgment Edward that to free us from our sin and judgment.

12:18.14
Jeremy
Well, and ironically it's very uncalvinistic because it implies you you can control. Someone's salvation right? Nobody Hypothetically if he could he would is what he say.

12:18.62
Greg Boyd
Yeah, it's very selfless, beautiful and old.

12:26.37
Greg Boyd
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:26.57
forestandtrees
Well, he's saying he can't control it right? Paul is saying like I wish if only yeah I won't yeah yeah, he's struggling with his lack of of free will in this case, right.

12:36.39
Greg Boyd
What he's not doing is glorifying god you know for displaying his justice on behalf of the damned which is part of the whole calvinistic gig is you got to be able to say you know god's glorious towards the elect for his mercy but also towards the damn for his judgment. Showing for his justice even though he predested them to be that way. But you're supposed to rejoice in that and see the beauty of that. Well Paul here is saying hell no man I do anything I could to to reverse this which is kind of the opposite of well must be the destined by god you know, okay sirrasra.

13:09.20
Jeremy
Ah, oh.

13:12.39
forestandtrees
Another thing is it kind of reminds me of something I've heard a lot of people say as an objection to the whole concept of heaven and hell like how can you enjoy being in heaven when you know that your loved ones are in hell I feel like Paul is kind of. Emoting a similar sentiment here by saying I wish I could just sacrifice myself so that other people could enjoy the glory of god.

13:33.28
Greg Boyd
I think yeah I think you have to be right? Jeff there's um, you know there's a strand in in in the bible. It's not a dominant strand but it's certainly a consistent strand you find throughout and and that strand teaches that that in in various ways. That that we humans are all in this together. Um that you know there's god treats our western individualistic worldview just doesn't accommodate this but ancient peoples and this is true of the biblical worldview they understood that individuals aren't the final reality. We're part of a whole. And and if nations are part of a whole there's holes in families and nations and then humanity as a whole and and in some ways where we we function like 1 like super giant individual and so you Paul is this statement like for example, in first corinthians 15 verse 22 it says for us all died an Adam.

14:11.47
forestandtrees
A.

14:25.20
Greg Boyd
So all will be made alive in Christ. It's like he treats this humanity as 1 person he wants to save this one person. We're all part of that 1 person and so um, yeah, it it. This idea that that we could be severed forever and eternity. Well you're right? you.

14:43.39
Greg Boyd
If we're living in love if we really are loving everybody as as as God calls us to um I think it would be intolerable for us to know that there's somebody who has unsurpassable worth who is tormented forever without any hope of being restored. That's the traditional doctrine of hell.

15:00.48
Jeremy
Rap.

15:02.56
Greg Boyd
Lock in this cell forever and ever and and we're called to love them and yet glorify God because he locked them up forever and ever there's something just totally ah a total incongruity there.

15:03.25
forestandtrees
Um.

15:13.17
Jeremy
Yeah.

15:14.99
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's that's what seems so so sort of bleak and nihilistic about the concept of calvinism to me is that the the implication is that God is in control of all these things and that means you know like I guess that's why calvinists come up with this concept of.

15:19.44
Greg Boyd
Um, oh.

15:32.61
forestandtrees
God is glorified by other people's suffering because he has to be right? just logically That's that's how you square it? yeah.

15:35.88
Greg Boyd
Exactly Yep way, it's you know the way you know what God's will is look around whatever happening is happening is God's will because he's predestined at all.

15:47.93
forestandtrees
Um.

15:49.40
Greg Boyd
And so it must be god's will that the holocaust happened and we had a million kids being gassed alive and buried and and and every kid caught brought sexual trafficking and you know every nightma you can think of was designed by god and and to happen it exactly as it did you know. God's and we have all these slogans you know, even for calvinists they always say things like god's always right on time. God's time is the right timeing god's still in his throne god knows what he's doing providence right straight with crooked linesions and blah blah blah blah and and and it just yeah, it. It's ah ah it covers this this really but up with. I don't mean to be offensive, but but it it strikes me as a monstrous view of god if if god's running this universe and controlling every detail. Um, every action. Everything happens is exactly as god designed it.

16:32.24
forestandtrees
Ah.

16:41.89
Greg Boyd
Then I have no way in my head of not so of saying that God's not responsible for every bit of it and it seems me that every objection any atheist could ever raise about you know why we have a moral obligation not to believe in God is absolutely legitimate.

16:56.86
Jeremy
Um, so Jeff this is like your chapter then.

16:57.32
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, ah well I don't know I'm not sure. Yeah I'm not sure if I believe in free will or not you know the like I was talking about earlier with Determinism. The the arguments are compelling. But the same time I'm I'm not sure what to do with them because you know maybe maybe I Maybe I'm being sentimental like you guys. But yeah I like the idea of having free will and getting to make my own decisions. Ah.

17:21.53
Greg Boyd
Well, the ultimate thing I'd say about you know, determinism of free will is well it's your choice kind of answers. The question.

17:33.54
forestandtrees
Brilliant, yeah, all right? Well let's move on to another question. Um, so you were talking about like god's people and Israel and this whole like narrative arc of the bible. This is something I've you know I've bugged Jeremy about numerous times so I wanted to hear your take on it um on verse 6 it says

17:47.60
Greg Boyd
Um, all right.

17:49.76
forestandtrees
Well then has god failed to fulfill his promise to Israel. No for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of god's people. So this is kind of like speaking to the new testament new covenant thing of like okay okay, and nevermind it's not about the nation of Israel. It's just about where your heart is right? So either. Either god is flipping the script with a new covenant changing his his ways or it got always just looked at the heart but the old testament writers didn't really understand that and either way it's it's very makes the bible very confusing and incoherent document. You know.

18:25.88
Greg Boyd
Um, now look.

18:26.23
forestandtrees
It adds a lot of unnecessary confusion I would say so why? do you think that is great. Why why? so much confusion with God's very important message.

18:36.30
Greg Boyd
Well, you know that's always a good question like white god couldn't you have made it a little bit clear you know and and and that's legitimate. Um, you know I just know that's always easy to be the backseat driver like god why didn't you do it this way why's you this way and ah you know and I'm not I'm not the ruler of the universe. so there's a lot of things I don't know and and so I would like to be clear, but it's I have to deal with the evidence that's before me having said that I would say that in this case, a lot of the lack of clarity. The ambiguity has to do with that I mean nobody. Listen to this now. Nobody interpreted Romans nine deterministically until StAugustine well now that's not quite accurate. The only group that interpreted romans 9 deterministically prior to Augustine were the manicheans and manicheans were this this dualistic. Kind of religion that held to eternal, good and eternal evil and they're kind of eclectic they borrowed from a lot of different sources. 1 of them being christianity and they kind of integrated some of the writings of the Apostle Paul into their scheme and and they interpreted it deterministically and then Augustine who was a manichean. Came out of that gave up determinism for a little bit but then later on it went back into it in the in the three ninety s after he heard a debate with ah fastius I think his name was a manichean um he thought the manicheans totally won and and that's ah in fact, looking back on this debate.

20:10.28
Greg Boyd
And the manicheans did and and and that's when you find Augustine making this shift so part of the what makes it ambiguous to us is that we can. There's a western tradition that that has always read it since Augustine has read it deterministically and that's kind of our default. Um, we don't do. The background reading to look at a a a different perspective because we're so used to this one and it just fits the the ways Paul is talking is very jewish and and the categories don't translate easily into western culture and that also you know, kind of confuses things. So there's there's a little teaching that needs to be done to set up what Paul's doing in romans nine because we're not in that first century jewish culture that he is.

20:56.33
Jeremy
So almost like we need a podcast to go through like the book of Romans and like explore it from other points of view is that what you're saying okay.

20:57.93
forestandtrees
Um.

20:59.93
Greg Boyd
Yes, if only we could take a fresh look at the book of romanlands and look at a different way of of yeah coming out about this. so so I mean for 1 thing Jeff I would just say this that notice there's a couple of distinctly jewish things going on here.

21:10.28
forestandtrees
No.

21:17.83
Greg Boyd
But for 1 thing paul is not talking about individual election. His issue is not who's saved or who's not saved. Um certainly not what individual saved or what individual is not saved. He's answering the question has god. Forsaken his people did god go back on his promises. The promises to Israel and that's in verse 6 and he wants to say no god has not gone back on his promises and the reason he's asking that question is because most of the jews at the time are not believing okay and so it Paul's question is if if Jesus is the messiah.

21:38.76
forestandtrees
Um.

21:52.28
Greg Boyd
The jewish Messiah why are the majority of jewish people not believing in him has you know god rejected them and wants to say no. So then he goes on to say that because the true the true israelite was never one just by virtue of of biology being born into the nation.

21:58.19
forestandtrees
Um.

22:11.34
Greg Boyd
Nor is the true is like 1 who just obeyed the law. You know that's an important point because the the folks he's arguing against are those who think that because they're born jewish and because they keep the law therefore they are god's people even though they reject the messiah and Paul is saying no being born a Jew and. Obeying the law is not what what the thing that qualified you as god's people. The true jew has always been one who had faith faith has always been criteria. It goes back to Abraham as example of that Abraham believed god and it was counted to him for righteousness. So it's all about this faith or this trust in Yahweh. Um.

22:36.58
forestandtrees
Says.

22:48.99
Greg Boyd
And that that yahwih you know you always ways all the right ways. So that that that's where he he says that that the true jew true israelite is is is the one who has had faith now Jesus comes along and he is the first sinless true israelite he he he keeps the covenant with god and then by virtue of that. People who have now have faith in him are considered honorary Jews so Paul says that we're grafted in god hasn't rejected Israel but he has broadened it to include the goim us as gentiles if we will have the faith of Abraham and so everyone he he says this several times in his writings. Everyone who believes is a child of Abraham know license chapter 3 um and we so we we become like honorary children of Abraham. So god's plan has always been the same. The problem is that the jews forgot that plan because they they thought that their standing with god was based on their. Their their nationality and their their obedience. So then then what Paul does. It's important is that that sets up this whole program here. So then Paul goes back into history and he shows how god has always had the right the prerogative to choose whoever he wanted to choose to be his people.

23:49.71
forestandtrees
Um.

24:05.10
Greg Boyd
Um, and he and he made some surprising choices. You know so he chose she was jacob over esau but that's not a question of like I'm going to save one and damn the other it's simply a question of who will be the the line by which god's going to raise up this covenant people. The israelites. And he goes through these choices that god makes all of them are kind of surprising in different ways. They're unexpected that Paul is just making the point that god is god and he can choose anybody he wants to so if god chooses to believe anyone who simply has faith. That's his prerogative and the ones who object to that are the jews who say no, we're special because of our nationality and because we keep the law and Paul's saying ah, it's never been the criteria. The criteria has always been faith and god is free to choose that. But he's not about. Choosing individual the Esau and jacob they just represent choices of people groups throughout history that guy decided he's gonna bring them his jewish people the messianic line through this lineage instead of this lineage or that lineage or whatever it's this lineage he chooses this It's important to note that. That choice wasn't about who's going to go to heaven or not the choice was simply who's going to be part of the people that I'm going to raise up to be priests to this whole world. The whole purpose of Israel was not to be a blessing in and of itself but rather to be a blessing to the nations and so we read that in genesis 12.

25:36.41
Greg Boyd
And Lord says I'm going to make you a mighty nation and your children will be like the stars of the sky and there'll be a blessing to the whole world. So god's always been in love with the world with every person in the world always been wanting to save everybody in the world Israel was chosen not to be like oh with the special people of god we're saved but rather you're chosen for a vocation.

25:42.73
forestandtrees
Ah.

25:53.28
Jeremy
The.

25:55.25
Greg Boyd
Have a job to do and there's blessings that come with that and Paul Paul points out those blessings in verse nine. There's a lot of advantages to being a jew you know blood bla but but the advantage was not about you get to be saved and other people aren't advantages. You get to be used to be the means by which other people come into the covenant of god. And now the church has inherited that same vocation because we are the new Israel. We've been grafted into the people of of Israel the descendants of Abraham so it's a that's a pretty big paradigm shift I know but that's that's kind of what's going on there.

26:23.84
forestandtrees
Um, sure. Yeah I like that I I think that I mean the the new covenant version certainly like makes more sense to me, you know as someone who's more interested in like an individualistic like morality versus like. But you know why would you choose an entire people group. Um, yeah I get what you're saying though about if if Israel like was the chosen people that so it's both a blessing and a curse in the sense of they have more work to do and you know potentially the surrounding tribes I suppose could could benefit by by getting blessed by Israel. Though. Yeah, sometimes sometimes they bless them in rather violent ways. But yeah.

27:00.99
Greg Boyd
Um, that was cool.

27:05.16
Greg Boyd
Was you know that's the thing is that they yeah the canites didn't actually consider them much of a blessing. Yeah, follow them all that breeds That's a different podcast and should like want to be my neighbor.

27:11.39
forestandtrees
Um, we yeah we did we hard to get into that question if if you don't want to.

27:15.14
Jeremy
I Don't think they were excited to be their neighbors.

27:23.91
Greg Boyd
Yeah, that's ah ah yeah, could have a money python on show on this like you know the the the israelites welcome Patty Wagon hey everybody welcome the neighborhood slaughter of all, but you know you see they feel miserably at that mission. You know it's ah it's they they? ah.

27:35.65
forestandtrees
Beautiful.

27:42.54
Greg Boyd
Ended up judging the people that they were supposed to be winning um and looking down on them which is exactly what the church does you know? So we the the church inherits this call on top of what the the ancient israelites have. We're given the Holy spirit.

27:46.61
forestandtrees
Um.

27:58.45
Greg Boyd
You know and he writes his law in our heart and all these other advantages and we still screwr up massively. We still end up judging the people that we're supposed to be serving you know so in the end in Aal that romans nine is part of this 3 chapter section ninth through eleven at the end of 11 paul. You know he's talking about like how's god gonna save the jews how's he see the israels whatever he talks himself into kind of a corner and then hes ah as he always does whenever he talks himself into corner. He breaks into a doxology and and it's his way sort of like oh the glory of god but but he says this he goes. So then what shall we say? How do we conclude this this is I think 1133 or maybe 36 1 of the two because so what shall we say then so god has concluded all to be under sin that he might have mercy upon all and there's days where I say you know what? I'm put all my money on that one because nothing else is going. It's like ah. We are all sinners it this no matter how much how far god has gone to give us grace to raise us up. We find ways of just turning to our own selfish stupid advantage and and and oppressing people and and oh it's and so either he's a mercy on all or we're all toasts.

29:10.50
forestandtrees
Huh.

29:13.86
Greg Boyd
It's kind of my sentiment these days I'm a very cynical optimistic.

29:14.35
Jeremy
That that whole theme. Yeah well I think the whole theme of understanding the jewish context that Paul's writing to obviously then you know to to your argument shapes how you then interpret a lot of these verses where I do think we we take them out today and we you know.

29:15.70
forestandtrees
Yeah.

29:33.56
Jeremy
We want to put them on a bumper sticker and go no this is just to me minus whatever the context was but you know you get to like verses 11 and 12 and Paul says this but before they were born before they had done anything good or bad and he's a friend to Rebecca Rebecca received a message from god. Then it says this message shows that god chooses people according to his own purposes. He calls people but not according to their good or bad works now just on a surface like reading I would say this sounds very fatalistic and almost seems to negate any sense of free will like doesn't matter if you're good or bad god just gonna do. He's gonna do. So with this in mind what does it mean that god chooses people according to god's own purposes.

30:15.52
Greg Boyd
Yeah, and then he says Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated. That's the the real nasty one. So it's like I just am'm gonna choose ah, ah yeah before I even you know even before Esau and jacob do any good or evil which by the way is's kind of a.

30:19.99
forestandtrees
Ah.

30:30.26
Greg Boyd
Slam on foreign knowledge If you think about it because if it if his choice has nothing to do with you know they're good or evil right? Well if God had four knowledge he would know they're good or evil and so it would saying it that he made the choice Beforehand wouldn't work at all. So it's a subtle passage in favor of open theism. Actually even though.

30:45.50
Jeremy
Who open theism in Romans Nine who there's a hot take.

30:46.96
forestandtrees
Wow Yeah, that scores scores a point for those keeping track at home.

30:49.93
Greg Boyd
There you go? No it think about it. But um, lets Scorert a point and 1 to 0 no ah um, but ah, ah, the the thing is is that that if you look at like if you interpret that as just 2 individuals. <unk> 2 individuals jacob esau and and god's gonna flip a coins says oh jacob I love esau head. Well, that's monstrous I mean that's like you know the the nazi saying what your kids do you want to have gas you yeah you have to choose which wouldn you love more. You know sophie's choice I mean that that's just monstrous. But if you. If you understand what paul's doing there. He's not focusing on the individuals those are just representatives of people groups in the whole genesis narrative those are the figureheads of the people the edomites you know they they stand for that so in choosing jacob he's simply choosing a lineage. Um and it's not about salvation and. Love and hate those are semitic terms you find that in the bible think jesus uses that unless you hate your mother and father for my sake. You're not worthy of me. But of course he doesn't mean literally hate them. Um because he believes in the commandments right? and he's supposed to honor and love your your your your mother and your father but he. It's it's simply a hyperbolic way of saying preference is a I'm choosing you over you. It's this and so you stateed hyperboically I made my choice. It's it's as clear as love and hate. But but you can't take that literally and so yeah jacob becomes the heir and then joseph becomes heir and.

32:22.47
Greg Boyd
Yeah, isaac and and it goes down there and Paul is simply saying that god like like god didn't choose these people because of their nationality and didn't choose these people because they obeyed the law. He chose it because he chose him and his god and he gets to do that all right? So don't feel like your. But what? what Paul is simply doing is taking out the security rug from everybody who's going to try to stand on their own on their own merits that no no well that's how god operates and so god is choosing to save be in relationship with anybody who will simply believe but anyone who simply believe.

32:43.34
Jeremy
Oh.

32:59.49
Greg Boyd
Um, but but fact, that's why like if you go to the end of Romans nine. Go right to the end. Um and and kind of a a good exegeical rule of thumb is this that whenever you're dealing with a complex argument and romans 9 gets complex if ever there was one.

33:06.64
forestandtrees
Ah.

33:18.38
Greg Boyd
But it's it's um, if the author themselves summarize if they summarize their own ah argument at the end which they frequently do pay attention to that and that's got to guide your interpretation. So at the end of Romans 9 What? what Paul does there is he. Yeah I got I got a good get to it. It's it's he sums it all ups he sums it all off. He says what shall we say then which shall we say that he goes like do love there here. We go um that this is starting with with verse 30 that the gentiles. What shall we say then sum it all up. That the gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it a righteousness in that word de kaisune it just seems right. Relatedness. They've got a righteousness or right relatedness that is by faith but the people of Israel who pursued the law as a way of righteousness. Have not obtained their goal. Why not because they pursued it not by faith as as if it were by works they stumbled over the stumbling stone so here and then later on Paul will talk about like well then why did god harden the the jews and he'll say because of their unbelief 3 times he says that because of their unbelief so it's not that they have unbelief because you harden them rather they harden themselves and then then got they rather they didn't believe and then god says if that's where you're gonna go I'll let you go that way and that hardens them in that. But.

34:48.84
Greg Boyd
Note that it's the choice of the people that determined what happened to them. It wasn't God's will that determined the choice of the people cabis.

34:59.48
forestandtrees
Um, thanks does that make sense to you jeremy.

35:01.19
Jeremy
Well, it seems like you're saying a little bit of both so in one sense you know Jacob Nisau it doesn't matter what they do they they're chosen. You know that's verse 12 they're chosen according to god's purposes. But then you're saying they when he res sums it up that.

35:13.54
Greg Boyd
Right.

35:18.98
Jeremy
Because of the way the israelites did it that is how God's responding. So how do you see those differently.

35:23.69
Greg Boyd
Yeah, well did that what god chooses is his arbitrary choice throughout history was ah the people of Israel to show that his choice stands as his choice and that choice was ultimately that he would ah. Whoever would have faith would be his people would be the true israel that's his choice and so then at the end of the argument the gentiles accept that proposal. Okay, it's by faith alone we're in because they don't stand by works or nationality don't of anything to boast about.

35:52.58
forestandtrees
Further.

35:54.70
Jeremy
Ah.

35:58.78
Greg Boyd
And then some Jews also believe that but a lot of the jews at the time didn't and so they're they're the ones who say no, they're they're offended that that gentiles get to be incorporated by faith because they keep the law and Paul is saying the laws. Isn't when what what helps you standing. But the thing he did what he doesn't do at the end of Romans nine you would expect if the calvinist reading was correct. You would have thought that he would say so what shall we say then well god predestines whoever he was to pedestine to be saved and he damns whereverever he wants to damn.

36:17.53
Jeremy
That makes sense.

36:34.22
Greg Boyd
But that's not what Paul says god responds to their unbelief.

36:38.67
Jeremy
And god had you know to your first point god had to choose someone so whoever god chose would have you know would be like oh I'm special. It's like well god literally had to choose someone to do what god was gonna do and I feel like that's kind of the argument Paul's making like he had.

36:44.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, did you.

36:49.19
Greg Boyd
Um.

36:57.90
Jeremy
He chose someone like this is who we chose you know.

36:58.25
Greg Boyd
Yeah, his methodology has always been a mustard seed methodology. He starts small and then you know tries 11 the whole lump so he's gonna grow this people and they're gonna witness the whole world and yeah, whoever chooses thats who is's gonna choose.

37:07.66
forestandtrees
You right? Great you said you said that god arbitrarily chose Israel did you misspeak or is that what you meant to say.

37:14.24
Greg Boyd
And yeah I told you but to say that in fact, that's a point that gets reiterated several times in the genesis narrative and in deeronomy and Deuteronomy says to them. Don't think that I've chose you because you're more righteous or more numerous or more powerful than any other nation. No.

37:25.41
forestandtrees
Um.

37:33.20
forestandtrees
Um, truly truly arbitrary. Yeah, that's that's so interesting.

37:33.33
Greg Boyd
They weren't they're pretty much parts of the course just and instead he says I'm doing it out of fidelity to your father Abraham he's on the keep her and so I'm I'm gonna stick with the descendants of Abraham I'm gonna raise them up and to treat the world and then that promise gets fulfilled in Christ who is the 1 true. Descendant of Abraham who fulfills the promises.

37:56.38
forestandtrees
I mean this kind of speaks to my ah medic question which I mean you you touched on already verse 13 with Jacob I. loved you saw I hated and then fourteen it said um, can we say god is unfair of course not I will god says I will show mercy on anyone I choose compassion anyone I choose. So that's that speaks to the arbitrariness of it. But I don't know it also seems like kind of the cruel randomness of of the world. We find ourselves in of like what what does that mean that you already talked about the love and hate. You're saying that's more of a a linguistic thing of so how do we know like when. And in the the very important Christian doctrine that god loves everyone. But then there's also certain passages that say like directly that god hates certain people so how how do you square that.

38:40.86
Greg Boyd
Well the the a lot of this a really important part of this. We haven't talked about but um so much of how you interpret particular passages depends on where you start so you got to ask? what's your starting point and and for.

38:53.60
forestandtrees
Um.

38:57.71
Greg Boyd
But of reasons I can't get into right now. I don't think but but ah, my starting point is always Jesus Christ and more specifically Jesus Christ crucified because I think the cross sums up everything that Jesus was about and I would argue the new testament itself holds up the cross as the definitive revelation of what god is like. Ah, John sums it up and he says god is love and he defines love first John 3 16 by pointing us to the cross here's how we know what? love is that Jesus Christ died for us. So god is cross like love. Um, and and there's all these passages that just emphasized that you know in the past they got glimpses of truth. But. Now god spoken us by his own son that's hebrews 1 1 through 3 you guys probably talked about that one? Um, and so so that's my starting point and now when I read scripture I'm gonna read it from that perspective. So what do I passages was that said god hates people um proverbs 5 for example, yeah god hates you un righteous. Um.

39:47.95
forestandtrees
Um.

39:52.20
forestandtrees
M.

39:54.75
Greg Boyd
Or the wrongdoers I take that just to reflect their limited perspective they because God is in my view is not coercive because the the God revealed in the cross. The cross is anything but coercion. It's the opposite of that God's trying to win us by displaying the beauty of his character.

39:59.49
forestandtrees
Right.

40:13.46
Greg Boyd
It's the opposite of of of coercion even though Paul and in in first corinthians 1 verse 18 he says the cross is the power of god which is that crucified guy on that that is what god's power looks like which that's that looked like the weakest thing you can imagine. So Paul says yeah to the to the world crosses foolishness and weakness. But to us. It's the power and wisdom of god god's power is his his willingness to die for us and and and to win our hearts you know by laying down his life and so when I come to passages where I they they depict god in hateful ways I chalk that up to the fact that god's not coercive even when he's. Inspiring people. Um, he leaves their imperfections in place. He's not going to labbotomize somebody into having true thoughts about him even the biblical writers I don't think they all of a sudden got took over all the neurons on the brain and they got rid of all their cultural beliefs and all their you know their writings reflect their own inculturation. You know the the limitations of their own worldview. The limitations of their own perspectives of god and god's constantly working to break through that and that's ah what I think happens in in the person of Jesus Christ but it also affects when I'm reading romans nine the idea that god would arbitrarily choose some to be saved and not others.

41:25.51
forestandtrees
Um.

41:30.92
Greg Boyd
Ah, is about as contrary to everything I can imagine about the god revealed in Jesus as can be ah Jesus did the opposite he's he's always out there pouring himself out for others and and going to the lost and the marginalized and the oppressed and didn't think of anybody as being a lost cause. And and you have this theme of god's universal. Love being you know god shows no partiality. You have that theme over and over again. So that's what tells me even though that reading of of romans nine I choose you I reject you the calvinistic way of reading that has a long tradition. I got to the point in my old walk where it's like there's got to be a different way of of of interpreting this and started digging into it and in fact, there is a very different way of interpreting it. Um, yeah, so the contradiction between.

42:20.32
forestandtrees
Ah, um.

42:23.59
Greg Boyd
What I believe about god is revealed in Christ and what I find in scripture is what generates the effort to find a different way of looking at it I would do the same thing with all the violence of the old testament and that's what the book crufixion of the warrior god's all about. Oh.

42:31.36
forestandtrees
Right? right? I should say Jeremy doesn't really like it when you bring up Jesus on this podcast. He's more of a hard doctrine guy. So.

42:43.58
Greg Boyd
Ah I.

42:44.18
Jeremy
I've just listed all this on my preach it brother because almost every question Jeff you know levels at me. That's like that I'm like well it doesn't look like Jesus so I go back to who do we know god to be revealed. You know in the person of Jesus and.

42:56.55
Greg Boyd
Um, yeah I thought too well samurai.

42:58.74
Jeremy
But this this is great to have someone else say it on the podcast. Ah.

42:58.79
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, do you feel that pain then of having to kind of like lower your ever lower your view of scripture because every time it doesn't reflect Jesus it means they wrote a wrong or is that an uncharitable.

43:11.98
Greg Boyd
Yeah, and to me to me. It's not at all lowering the view of scripture to me it exalts it. It just god and Paul says god always chooses the weak things of this world to confound the wise.

43:15.68
forestandtrees
Depredation.

43:29.98
Greg Boyd
Ah, you know it's like you know in Indiana Jones and the temple of doom when when Indiana Jones and that nazi are in their back room. You know where they're looking for the Holy Grail and they have to choose which one they think is is is the right one and the nazi while he's looking around and he gets to choose first and and and and he thinks all you know.

43:40.65
forestandtrees
And.

43:47.37
Greg Boyd
Jesus is the king of Kings Lord of lords he must have had a great chalice so he chooses the most opulent chalice. He drinks from it and he turns to dust and then that wise guy and the he goeses. Yeah yeah, he goes he chose poorly I love it. It almost poorly.

43:53.60
forestandtrees
A.

43:55.90
Jeremy
It's a pretty traumatic scene. Yeah I remember watching it as a kid.

43:59.90
forestandtrees
Wrong up.

44:03.41
Greg Boyd
But then indian indiana Jones Whyts is up and he goes and wait. This is a lowly carpent. This is a humble guy. He'd get the lowliest cup there was he gets his ordinary cup and and and he chose right and that see we always think that god would get the red carpet treatment if he's gonna inspire a book. It's got to be inerrant and all the authors give got to be perfect. And and ah and we try to force the bible into this you know category of this perfect book and it just doesn't fit and where you know thousands of people have walked away from the faith because they discovered that the bible. The real bible doesn't fit this category of the the inerrant perfect book.

44:26.90
forestandtrees
A.

44:39.40
Greg Boyd
It's not hard to prove that it's got errors in it. It's it's full of contradictions and shortcomings and all that. But when that's the point is that God stoops to work with us where we're at and and and he doesn't bulldoze over where we're at he accommodates it like ah he he influences us as far as possible in the direction of truth. Um, but because he's not coercive. There's a point where he's just got accepted as we are and so I really believe he said to Moses hey I want you to go in the promised land. But what Moses hears as an ancient. Nierome person is oh you I'm going to go in there and slaughter everybody because that's what everyone thinks that' so he thinks that That's what God told him to do that's like no. Ah, that that's on you but now God in this patience is going to stay in Covenant Solidarity with these people So who's going to bear their sin and thererefore take on the ugliness of of that sin which is just what he does on the cross. Um, and so to me it contributes I wrote a book on this called inspired imperfection. It's I think the imperfections of the bible are part of its inspiration part of its beauty part of its revelation. It's glorious. But now the person should be asking is this because because this is the linchpin of it I think.

45:42.50
Jeremy
Love it. What's so good. Okay, okay, that's that's my next question because I I love so much of what you're saying.

45:42.64
forestandtrees
Glorious. Yeah.

45:51.39
forestandtrees
Um.

45:51.81
Greg Boyd
Starts in Verse sixteen. Oh yeah, go go ahead and ask it.

45:59.93
Jeremy
But I also look at some of the actual words in chapter nine and I'm just like oh like why did you word it like that and 16 is like the next one I go oh so it is god who decides to show mercy. Okay, fine. But then this we can neither choose it nor work for it.

46:05.43
Greg Boyd
Bring it if.

46:19.50
Jeremy
And if I'm honest, you know I was telling Jeff earlier this verse just depresses me. It's like god is removing any sense of responsibility for you know life from us. So okay if I take the phrasing Paul's using here if I cannot choose mercy if I cannot work toward mercy. What is my role then in faith.

46:23.77
Greg Boyd
Um, the.

46:37.85
Jeremy
Understanding. This is obviously a ah bigger conversation. But then how do we read this today. What what's our role when it comes to mercy of god.

46:46.21
Greg Boyd
Yeah I love verse and of mercy I will harden whom I will harden it is now therefore depend on human desire or effort. But on god's mercy for scripture says to pharaoh and and this is important to raise this context and when you're reading, um, a jewish author like Paul. And yeah, cits the old testament you got to pay close attention because these guys they they allude to passages of scripture but you have to look at the cold context of what they'reuding to because they usually presuppose that the their audience is going to know this these characters like pharaoh they know the story of pharaoh so he says um ah for god's that says to pharaoh I've raised you up for this purpose that I might display my power in you that my name my name might be proclaimed to all the earth therefore Goddo's mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 1 of you will say then why did does god still blame us for who is able to resist his will who are you oh mere human being to talk back to god so what is form state of the one who formed it. Why did you make me like this like and this is just does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of play some pottery for noble purposes. And some for disposal or of refuse. Okay, so it does on the service. Let's to the to us our normal western individual sick years. It can sound like god is saying this or Paul is saying this that here's one li a clay.

48:13.94
Greg Boyd
And if god wants to decide to out of this come make some good people over here and and to say oh you are my elect I love you, you get to be eternally saved and then all that same lump of Clay. He makes these evil people that he hardens and then he smashes them for eternity for being the way he made them in order to. Turn to the people who he didn't smash and say now aren't you glad I had mercy on you. It looks like what Paul is saying what if he hard knows to to display his mercy on those you know who are like um if that's what Paul's saying then you know if if Jeremy if if if you had a. Your son holds your son now.

48:54.13
Jeremy
Well I have 4 of them our our oldest is fourteen seven he set there Abel is the little one.

48:55.77
forestandtrees
Which one.

48:57.60
Greg Boyd
Anyway and holds your youngest and how old is he I mean I What's his name able. Okay, so if you go downstairs you find Ablebel playing and let's to say you're He's so Adorable. You're just gonna watch him play and he doesn't know that you're watching him. And he has a glomp of clay and then he makes some good people over here and he makes some bad people over here and then he squishes the people who are bad saying bad people for being the way I way I made you and then he turns to the people who are he made good. He did little Figurines. He goes now aren't you glad I didn't do that to you praise me give me glory. For my mercy because I didn't squish you like I could you'd get him to a therapist pretty quick I would think it's like I you know, glorify me, you know it's It's like this twisted kid that I on our block when I was cornwa Houston's well I used to smash his ants.

49:41.16
Jeremy
I mean it does sound like 7 year old behavior to be fair. Ah.

49:49.90
forestandtrees
He's a sid from Toy story.

49:54.70
Greg Boyd
Yeah, and it's like he gets off on that. It's like there's something profoundly sick about that So we got to say it out loud that that's that's about as monstrous a picture as I can get God wants to be glorified look what I can do I can save and I can damn it's like the ultimate Caesar nero like ah who is who lives who dies.

50:13.10
Jeremy
Well, it's sounds like might makes right right I have I have the power to do this.

50:13.90
Greg Boyd
Okay, but as I said it's always important oh totally and who are you to question me.

50:19.67
forestandtrees
Or don't don't question me or else. Yeah.

50:24.71
Greg Boyd
Yeah, yeah, or or maybe you're not 1 of god's elected I'm telling you I ah I have met some people who are psychologically tortured because they believe that god predestins everything and how do I know for sure that I'm one of god's elect. You know it's like.

50:36.73
Jeremy
A.

50:40.55
Greg Boyd
How do you know man Jonathan Edwards used to wonder about that like hey have I lived today with every ounce of my energy for the glory of god you know and and it's it's ah it's like you know sometimes calvinism is sold as a way of making people feel secure because god's got it all under control. And you're when a god's elect and and he's gonna keep you in his hand eternal security but it seems to me that the the doctrine can't help but breed eternal insecurity because how do you know that you're one of god's elect. Yeah Augustine wondered about this one one of his bishops. You know he he was the he was the bishop of of of hippo. Ah, this area Northern Africa and and 1 of the priests under his jurisdiction at the age of 74 ran off with this nun and just rejected the faith and went out and you know sold their wild oates better late than ever I guess and and and and and so it was clear that he's not elect and so Augustine wondered about this. How could. Somebody look like and talk like and feel like and think like and believe like they're elect for you know, sixty some years of their life and then at age before they lose it. Well apparently you can appear to be god's ah god's elect for your whole life. But you're not really god's elect and so if that priest couldn't be sure. Throughout his life that he was elect. How can I possibly be sure. Maybe god just raised me up to make me look like an elect for a while but it will surface purposes at the end for me to run off with somebody and deny my fate I don't know it. It's it breeds eternal insecurity.

52:12.93
Greg Boyd
But here's the thing. So as I said you have to look at the context whenever they're courting scripture this potter or Clay Analogy doesn't come up with out of nowhere paul didn't invent this. He's appealing to the old testament and you find this powder Clay analogy several times the 1 time where it flushes out the actual meaning of it. In Jeremiah eighteen and and here you find that that the the lord takes jeremiah to this to this potter's house and this potter is making a vessel with some clay. But. He says the vessel wouldn't the vessel wasn't turning outright so he decided to make a different kind of vessel based on the kind of clay he was working with so then the lord says to Jeremiah now you go back and tell Israel. Um. That I am fashioning a judgment against them here's kind of vessel I'm making I'm fashioning a judgment against them. But if they will repent of their sin I will literally says if they'll change their mind I'll change my mind about the kind of vessel I'm forming instead of forming a vessel of judgment I'll form a vessel of mercy. But if I he goes on say if at any time I make a a promise to bless a nation if they change their ways and turn wicked I'll so I'll change my what the vessel I'm forming and turn it into a judgment the point of and he was saying all this because.

53:37.85
Greg Boyd
The the israelites were saying you find this in verse 12 of of chapter 18 of Jeremiah. It's no use. We're done for it because god said hey judgment's coming and they're like oh we're toast. We're done for and the Lord's saying don't say that just because I said it that you're that that a judgment's coming doesn't mean that a judgment is actually coming The reason I said that is so that you'll change so judgment won't come so the whole point of the Potter Clay analogy isn't god's unilateral control over the clay. The point is the opposite. The point is the the Potter's flexibility in working with the Clay. So the kind of clay we are. Determines what god shapes us with and so that's why he's saying if god is shaping you in terms of unbelief and is harding you and your unbelief it's because that's the kind of clay you've made yourself to be. You're like pharaoh now you know and so since you're gonna be hard. God will do what he did with pharaoh. It's like well if you're gonna be that way. Um, here's the use I can put to you god always finds a sovereign use even for the rebels I'll use you for this if you're gonna be that kind of clay I'll form this kind of a vessel. But if you'll be moldable kind of clay then I'll fashion you into this kind of a vessel and so that's where he says you can't question god. Not because of his power. He has the power to control you or something but because of his wisdom he always he he's the wise Potter he knows what he's doing and so you find yourself you're on the outside of this thing because you won't accept the messiah. Well, that's because of the kind of clay you are being stubborn clay.

55:11.72
Greg Boyd
And being stubborn clay because you're trusting in your nationality and and in the law rather than in simple faith.

55:15.78
Jeremy
A.

55:21.47
forestandtrees
Yeah I wanted to ask ah another kind of meta question about the whole Potter Clay analogy because as far as I understand it. It seems to be the implication seems to be like know your place like stop asking so many questions like almost almost similar to what we were talking about at the beginning of like maybe determinum. Determinant determinism is true, but just don't think about it too much like stop asking questions and it it kind of flies in the face of the premise. Ah the whole premise of our show right? because the whole like concept is that I come to Jeremy with all these questions. Um. So something about you. Great I remember reading your book that you wrote with your father letters from a skeptic um I read it back when I was in high school. Um and it was probably my first like introduction to apologetics and then I actually reread it this week just to see. Um, ah, you know how it held up and yeah, fascinating kind of interesting to think about how like.

56:01.38
Greg Boyd
Um, yeah.

56:15.12
forestandtrees
Our podcast is kind of a ah reboot of or it's the exact same premise of that book. Um, and yeah, yeah I I am daddy.

56:19.60
Greg Boyd
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure so saying you're kind of like you know Jeremy's father I get it. Yeah you so you're you're sort of okay.

56:28.51
Jeremy
Um I don't think that's where he was going with that. But yeah, okay.

56:33.97
forestandtrees
So anyway, um I wanted to ask? Let's see this is something that people will say to me and and you seem to be someone who's who's cool with questions and you know when I start when I first started to come out with all these questions and like I don't think I believe anymore none of this makes any sense people. Christians would always say to me like. You know this is good god likes your questions god can handle your questions. It's good that you're asking all these questions and I don't know I I like that sentiment like that that makes sense to me that I would think you would hope that god would want us to be critical thinkers but at the same time I don't really see that reflected in scripture. You know like passages like this where it's like who are you a mere lump of clay or like the ending of job where job has all these questions for god and god just says you know shut up no questions or even Jesus says a wicked and adulterist generation would ask for a sign where he says to Thomas. Um. Plus are those who have not seen in yet believe like it's better to not ask questions and just believe so so I wonder what? what your thought is is on that crag like where do you get this idea that god is in fact, happy to take our questions.

57:32.75
Greg Boyd
Well, you know you have it that you right? you had this motif in certain click in certain places that this is kind of put up or shut up but but notice that where you usually find that is when you're talking to stuffy religious people. Okay, so. Here god's talking Pauls talking romans nine to these jews who are self-righteous. You know we're the special people because of our nationality because of this and and there comes a tough talk look at if you're outside of the you know god's working with the messiah. Well, that's on you. It's because of your unbelief. And and you know they're like well how could you know How could god possibly send a messiah that we can't believe in because we're the special people of god and that's we're like hey you got to deal with the messiah that you've been sent you know instead of trying to backseat god god's questioning and and so so that's where the questions aren't. I mean their objections aren't coming out of a place of genuine seeking curiosity. Their questions are coming out of a spot of self-righteousness you know they're kind of like the ones saying how dare you Paul for saying this that that the god would choose someone other than us and and Paul is kind of turning it back on them saying well actually you know god can.

58:37.95
forestandtrees
Huh.

58:49.60
Greg Boyd
Whatever god's doing. It's just and so if you're finding yourself on the outside. It's because that's the that's the best god could do with you he he's gonna work with the kind of clay that you make yourself being but then you also have a strand going throughout the bible where god is always inviting that kind of dialogue in like like when in in in genesis eighteen. When he announces this this destruction of sodom and Gomorrah and Abraham objects. You can't do that lord is bunch of righteous people there and god wouldn't say hey shut up who are you god says? Well then tell you tell me what is just if there's 50 people there is it still justified how about 40.

59:18.38
forestandtrees
Ah.

59:26.28
Greg Boyd
But give me 30 wholl give me 30 give me 202020 will get twenty ten people a year then you know and and right but he so he reasons with him and you find him saying and isaiah come let's reason together I'm not unreasonable. Yeah, ask me your questions you've got you know all sorts of examples of of Jeremiah Ezekiel habakuk

59:27.76
Jeremy
Turns into an auctioneer.

59:32.80
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

59:45.29
Greg Boyd
People who are saying God What the hell you say you're our covenant. You know deity and yet you're you're not faithful to your I mean they say some raw things and none of them get zap for it and even in job I mean I think job is yeah job throughout that whole ordeal. He he starts by saying.

59:53.73
forestandtrees
Right.

01:00:03.30
Greg Boyd
Oh the Lord Giveth and the lord takes away blessed be the name of the lord sounds so pious. But as the as the book goes on. He says that same refrain and it gets more and more nasty. You know the the piety wears off and by the end of it. He's saying god you're a ruthless predator you toy with me like a lion does its pray.

01:00:07.62
forestandtrees
Um.

01:00:22.50
Greg Boyd
You delight in just kind of you know you brought me into this world just to destroy me and you don't hear the the cries of the poor and you blind the eyes of the judges and you're responsible for all the crap in the world. You are the adversary he says at 1 point you're my adversary basically saying you are the devil. Okay, nasty stuff. Um god never zaps him.

01:00:38.68
forestandtrees
Um.

01:00:41.20
Greg Boyd
Ah, when god shows up he puts him in his place but not an angry way if if you look at it. He toys with job. He's kind of playful. It's like okay job um, tell me, do you know where the were you there when I put the stars in the sky. Ah, do you know the basic ordinances of the world. You can you explain why animals behave the way they do have you considered the ostrich is so peculiar. Do you know where rain comes from or where the do goes in the morning and and he brings up all these questions about creation to basically say job. You don't know squat. You don't know you're a human being this creation is much more vast than you can possibly imagine. Maybe you want to be a little less quick on the trigger when it comes to blaming me for stuff and then in in chapters thirty nine and forty he turns to leviathan and behemoth these two cosmic ancient eastern monsters and he says job. Can you do a better job than me contending with them. Why don't you just go and and put the viathan in his place. Go go use your your spear. Oh that's right, he eats iron you know and and so he he kind of just gently shows job that he doesn't know squat with a beautiful point and I'm started to sermonize here but I'll make it quick but at the end then in in chapter 42 what is most beautiful about this book is he says to 2 to to job. I am ah no, you know he says to lfz I'm mad with job's friends because they didn't speak about me. What was right? like my servant job now the verse before job had just repented in dust and ashes for everything you just said he says I didn't know what I was talking about so he repents but Lord says he.

01:02:01.67
forestandtrees
And.

01:02:12.73
forestandtrees
Um.

01:02:16.60
Greg Boyd
They didn't speak about me what was right now he uses this hebrew word kun and the word coon means to align with and so it can mean 1 of 2 things either what you speak is true because it aligns with the way things are or what you speak is true because it aligns with your heart. Job clearly didn't speak with the truth about the way things are because he called god a monster but he did start he did speak truth from his heart and that is what qualifies as worshiping god in the book of job the whole question at the beginning was will anyone worship god freely or is god a manipulative. Machavelllian deity um, and and and throughout the whole book. Job's friends and job agree that god's pulling all the strings when god shows up he doesn't say any of that. He's not pulling the strings. He just says you guys don't know anything but job ends up because he spoke straight god honors him.

01:02:59.17
forestandtrees
Um.

01:03:14.31
Greg Boyd
And that counts as faith and that's what vindicates god's character 1 person worship god he kept the lines of communication open and and he was speaking honestly and that counts as worship I find that to be so incredible. God is passes the test posed in the prologue of job. By job simply is talking honest and so I think there's this blog strand of the biblical tradition where god invites this input. He's not intimidated by our questions. He says come let us reason as long as you're coming out of a pure heart now when you get to the pharisees and and these folks who are just train to trap Jesus you try to be clever.

01:03:46.90
forestandtrees
Um.

01:03:50.95
Greg Boyd
But God shuts them up. It's like you know what I don't have time for that stuff. But if there's a genuine inquiry I think God loves it. It's a form of worship.

01:03:58.29
forestandtrees
I'm I'm trying to decide if if the way job portrays god if he's the the calvinist god or not because I mean according to the story god is totally in control in the sense of he unleashes the devil right? He allows the devil to Torment Job to prove a point or something right? yeah.

01:04:16.32
Greg Boyd
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well we could get into the whole genre. You know Genry talking about. But yeah, the the prologue sets up the whole function of the prologue in in this kind of epic poetry that you're dealing with here and that's the kind of genre you're talking about here.

01:04:31.10
forestandtrees
Um.

01:04:31.22
Greg Boyd
It's a little bit like you know if you look at some great plays Edyus Rex for example and the prologue sets up the storyline by letting the audience in on a secret that the characters don't know about so you know oedipus is condemned to he's going to marry his mother and kill his father and the audience knows that. But.

01:04:45.43
forestandtrees
Who.

01:04:50.14
Greg Boyd
The the characters in the in the in the play don't and that's what sets up this drama. Well here we're we're letting on the secret council this party that's going on in heaven where satan shows up and and we're let in on the secret that the heavenly council knows and that is that satan hastaan it's thus Satan in in in the book of job. The adversary. Ah, he accuses god of of being a machavvellian deedy and the reason people worship you is because of the benefits and so in the context of this this this poem. The only way that can be tested is to to to let it play out to tip put it to the test.

01:05:17.45
forestandtrees
Ah.

01:05:27.89
Greg Boyd
If if if if God were to like just Zilch Satan blow him away that proved Satan's point us he is a Machavvellian deity. He's a control freak you question him he's gonna blast you so the Chart How is this charge going to be answered. Well let's let's put it to the test and job becomes the the he gets caught in a crossfire.

01:05:38.70
forestandtrees
Um.

01:05:45.96
Greg Boyd
This verbal spiritual warfare in the heavenly Realm and the whole point of the book is to say that there are things that go on in the heavenly realm that we don't ever know about, but they greatly affect what happens here. So when somebody comes into tragedy. Don't go saying oh God did this to you.

01:05:47.00
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

01:05:59.30
forestandtrees
Um.

01:06:03.51
Greg Boyd
Ah know the world's a lot more complex than that. That's how I read it.

01:06:04.49
forestandtrees
Sure, yeah yeah I it right? I yeah again I feel like it it it aligns with what Paul is saying here of like you're just a lump of Clay like basically saying just like don't worry about it like stop asking questions because it's it's over your head you know.

01:06:21.61
Greg Boyd
Well, but I don't think it's just that Jeff I think it's it's um um yeah we need to trust that god is always doing the best thing with what he's got to work with I mean that's the point and and so. Um, ah, if this people group is finding themselves on the outside of god's plan. You can't say that that's because god's harding them rather that's because of their unbelief they're putting themselves on the outside and and they're the ones who now aren't trusting god's character because their sense of god's character is based on their obedience to the law and their nationality. Um.

01:06:54.64
forestandtrees
Um.

01:06:55.70
Greg Boyd
But make god very parochial and Paul saying no god's not parochial. He's always been for the whole world. He's he's never been this arbitrary deity saving some and damning others though. He's got the right to do it. However, he wants and he does it through Israel.

01:07:08.38
forestandtrees
And yeah are all right? You sad.

01:07:10.39
Jeremy
So Jeff god has not decided to smite you yet. So Greg Greg's onto something here.

01:07:16.32
Greg Boyd
Yeah, yeah, well he has a site me yet. So so that that says something you're safe if he hast spin me yet then then then he's not. He's not in the smity business right now.

01:07:27.16
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I I for one. Ah thank thank my overlords every morning. Ah.

01:07:30.85
Greg Boyd
There you go and so they you know I hope that you see there's a complete reframe it all has to do with kind of the lens that you take to these texts and we in addition to bring these deterministic lenses to this text and and so it.

01:07:43.48
forestandtrees
Um.

01:07:48.82
Greg Boyd
Whatever you've read the same way for a long time like centuries. It becomes the obvious way to read it. Um, it's one when people say well wait a minute. Maybe there's another way that that you can begin to see? Oh yeah, there's a reframe here. Um.

01:07:55.28
forestandtrees
Um.

01:08:00.20
forestandtrees
Yeah I don't know I guess like for me I I wasn't like raised calvinist I don't I wasn't like introduced to the concept of calvinism calvinism until like bible college and I would ask like wait. What what we don't have free will that doesn't make any sense and then be like romans nice I'd read Romans Nine and so I wasn't coming to it with this predetermined deterministic worldview I was coming to it thinking like no I don't like that idea I want to have free will but I'll read the text and text seems pretty clear so you know I think that's a lot of people's experience I think there's a lot of people who like don't like intellectually they don't like the idea of calvinism but they're like.

01:08:27.14
Greg Boyd
Yeah, all.

01:08:34.16
Greg Boyd
Yeah, oh head you know I do that's where I was for a couple of years I like I said at the beginning I totally get why people can draw the conclusion I just couldn't get into it I just can't see the beauty of that it strikes me as a profoundly ugly god and.

01:08:37.80
forestandtrees
The bible says it So what can you do.

01:08:47.57
forestandtrees
Um.

01:08:52.19
forestandtrees
Um.

01:08:52.39
Greg Boyd
You know you're not supposed to say that you know yeah because that means that you might not be 1 of the gods of luck but see I really believe I honestly believe at the core of my being It's like 1 of my most fundamental convictions is that this whole gig this whole gig is about learning how to trust the goodness of god's character. It's all about god's character. Um, because you know as I understanding god wants to have a relationship with us and individually and collectively and relationships are always based on trusting character. Your relationship is as strong as you each trust each other's character and it is tenuous to the degree that you each don't trust each other's character and so. I think the cross is all about god saying here's who I really really really am you know? Trust this trust my character and you don't let other you know things come in and compromise this and dilute this and water this down and cloud this trust this character and then try to figure out everything else from that perspective. Um, because I yeah I think it all it all leverages on this I'm willing to grant a trillion mysteries to god you know I mean how do you begin to understand god's uncreatedness a god who who has no temporal or spatial limitations and you know and how was god. What's the essence of god and how does god relate to this world and god's on the inside of everything and yet everything's not god I mean those are some really really deep mysteries but it's all that is mysterious about god the one thing I think that god wants us to be absolutely clear on because that's what the revelation of Christ is all about is god's character.

01:10:18.30
forestandtrees
Um.

01:10:28.83
Greg Boyd
This supreme being who's beyond anything we can imagine his character is humble. Other oriented servant like love um a guy who would rather suffer death for you and for his enemies rather than kill them I think it all comes down to that.

01:10:47.92
Jeremy
That's you know it's obviously a super compelling you've you've singlehandedly shaped. You know so much of my theology over the years through this kind of thing and you know I I grew up in a church like Jeff but you know had a lot of these questions and was told a lot of the you know like yeah Roman's 9 guy works like that and so. I think what is so cool about this conversation is you are offering enough almost like it's you know feel what feels too good to be true. Doesn't have to be too good to be true like you can actually believe in the beautiful god and so before we let you off the hook. Let's give you 1 more verse to we'll get your way out of ah.

01:11:12.69
Greg Boyd
Yeah, that's one point.

01:11:22.25
Jeremy
As we get toward the end of of chapter 9 and this is gonna I'm gonna bring a little of my own journey into this in verse 22 Paul says in the same way. Even though god has the right to show his anger and his power. He's very patient with those on whom his anger falls which sounds good until you get to the phrase.

01:11:23.19
Greg Boyd
All right.

01:11:41.22
Jeremy
Who are destined for destruction now Greg just on a personal note you were the first person in my life again growing up in the church that that even helped me to realize that the eternal conscious torment view of hell which is what most people think of when they think of hell that that is. 1 view of hell and doesn't have to be the only view of hell I I grew up. Not even knowing that was a thing um, and at that time you know you you kind of got me into what's known as annihilationism and that was like a breath of fresh air I have kept going on that journey kept diving into that.

01:12:03.37
Greg Boyd
Right? right? yeah.

01:12:17.60
Jeremy
And now I would say I land more in the universal reconciliation camp where you know I I dare to believe you know as David Bentleyhart talks about that god is as beautiful as I hope he is and I'm actually going to believe that. Ah so I always want to say in light of what the text actually says here and everything we've discussed.

01:12:26.13
Greg Boyd
Yeah, yeah.

01:12:35.10
Jeremy
What does it mean for god to have people destined for destruction as paul references in verse 22

01:12:39.10
Greg Boyd
Ah, yeah, just just note there that and that verse it says you know what of god what of god although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known. He had with great pain bore with great patience. The object of his wrath prepared for destruction now. If god was just forming these things out of 1 lip of Clay. Why would he need patience. You know if he's forming it. It's being exactly the way he formed it and so why would he need patience the very affecting these he needs patients shows that that there's an over and against this. He's working with these people. You know that there's there's a give and take.

01:13:13.87
Jeremy
There's free will yeah.

01:13:15.30
Greg Boyd
Kind of the kind of clay they're making themselves determines what he's gonna make out of them. But yeah, yeah, destined for for destruction. Um, you know you're right? ah. I like you for the longest time have been an anni. What's called Annihilationist although it came to not like that term and very much because it makes god sound like an annihilator like the terminator I annihilate you and and and and it is I think that the dominant way that that that that the ah.

01:13:35.82
Jeremy
Right? right? so.

01:13:46.90
Greg Boyd
Irrevocably reprobate if there are such people those who are irrevocably opposed to god um, are the the main metaphor used of those rebels is destruction. You know the wages of sin is death and you find this motif going throughout the bible. The wicked shall be a smoke that rises into the night you know like. Ah, the obadiah 16 says the wicked shall be as though they had never been and and so that seems to connote just and it doesn't mean that god has to destroy them it just I think it means that god lets them destroy themselves. Ah the wrath of god romans one tells us is that it's it. It's all about god just saying if you're goingnna go down that road I got let you go and and it's gonna lead to destruction. so um and just a god withdrawing the gift of existence and so it in that model hell is as much a matter of euthanasia as it is a matter of justice god's putting them out of their misery It's also the just thing to do because there's nothing else to do with them if if they're if they won't be reconciled so that that's the view of annihilation which is I think far more plausible than the idea that people are or any sentient being is gonna be suffering forever and ever and ever and ever without any hope of being redeemed. Which would presuppose that god is inflicting pain for the sake of pain or if you don't say afflicting at least he's allowing them to exist in a state that's worse than nonexistence for the sheer purpose of getting even for all eternity. It's it's reveal this glory. Yeah, look what I can do you know that's like the.

01:15:11.91
Jeremy
Or to reveal his glory somehow.

01:15:19.49
Greg Boyd
Kid I grew up with who's stepping on ants to show how strong he is. It's just ah, a a a twisted picture of god but I'm also coming increasingly convinced as you are Jeremiah Jeremy that that Jeremiah saying of the Prophet Jeremiah ah

01:15:23.96
forestandtrees
Um.

01:15:37.39
Jeremy
We have a lot in common.

01:15:37.56
Greg Boyd
Yeah mean you're the prophet Jeremiah Jeremy but ah yeah is is wo up in the world. Um, but but you know the the destruction we always assume that that's like finality and and I'm not sure that it's always finality. Ah.

01:15:38.14
forestandtrees
Regret you graduated congrats.

01:15:55.30
Greg Boyd
I just I'm preparing to do this a series at Woodland Hills on on the book of revelation. Um I don't really get I'm really excited because I've just been a lot of studying on this and and I've just been you know in in revelations nineteen which some have described as the most violent book of the bible. Ah god Jesus shows up and um. He's covered in blood. He's riding on this warrior horse and he's got a sword coming out of his mouth and and John is recalling this picture of Yahweh from isaiah 62 where ya always covered in blood coming back from battle. He's a man of war and and coming back from battle covered in blood was was a badge of honor. Because it means that you killed them but they didn't kill you. You know? and so yeah and ancient near that's how they thought about their gods our god our warrior god is more vicious than your warrior god they almost said would have contests about who's god who could be more macabre but John takes his picture and he ascribes it to Jesus.

01:16:36.88
forestandtrees
Um.

01:16:51.80
Greg Boyd
But Jesus is covered in blood before he goes into battle. Can you find that revelations 19 which is John's way of showing the way this warrior fights is not by shutting the blood of others but by letting his own blood be shed and. Then it says a that he slays the kings of this world and throughout the book of revelation. The Kings are the bad guys. The oppressors, the ones who are just you know making money for the whore of Babylon and they're just evil so he slaughters all the kings you know and the birds of the air come down and eat their carcasses and they go what a gory scene. And looks like it's just vengeance. Ah finally god got even those suckers got what they they had come into him but then the next chapter you find or ah, 2 chapters later you find that those same Kings now are alive again and they're bringing the glory of their nation into the new jerusalem.

01:17:43.18
Greg Boyd
And it's like well wait a minute didn't they all guy the theologist get killed. It's like yeah but with a sword coming out of the mouth I doubt that was a literal sword I can imagine one man slaing all the kings of the Earth with a sword I mean he was spraying his neck really quick I would think trying to it's like like guy.

01:17:57.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, not not very practical. Yeah.

01:18:02.97
Greg Boyd
It's like that money python you know where it's like it's a mere flush wound you ever see that with ah ah yeah, it certainly Grail I do with bold hands tight behind me back were both hands cut off. Ah no, but see the word is always the word of truth. It's it's the truth that slays lies.

01:18:04.60
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

01:18:06.96
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, yeah.

01:18:20.23
Greg Boyd
Um, he speaks the word and John even says that in the book of revelation. He speaks the word of truth and that's how the followers of the lamb overcome. They speak the word of truth and so I'm becoming convinced that what is annihilated and and it's and this isn't important. It's it's it's the wrath of god it's it's not pleasant. It's gonna be terrible. But what is annihilated are all the lies. We believe the false identities we get the social constructs we create for ourselves the oppressive structures that we build in this world. All the lies that we build up here the self-serving way that we run things at the expense of others, not caring, a riff about nature not giving anything back to it bringing destruction upon ourselves. And it's going to be godawful. It's terrible. But it's not the last word god I think redemption is always the last word and in the end these kings are redeemed and now they their heads are on straight and now they're bringing the glory of their nations rather than doing it for their own prestige now. They're humbly bringing it into to the neutralism to contribute.

01:18:58.55
Jeremy
Oh.

01:19:15.87
Greg Boyd
This multifaceted always diverse polyvalent refraction of the glory of god.

01:19:20.12
Jeremy
Wow I Love that. That's beautiful.

01:19:22.71
forestandtrees
Paul Polyvalent Refraction is that what you said, let's.

01:19:26.31
Greg Boyd
Yeah, it's a multi. Yeah, very diverse polyvalence reflection multi levelveed I Think in the end I means multi-layered. It's like I think yeah in the end, The only thing it's going to be it all comes down to this I think that.

01:19:31.76
forestandtrees
No, that's you I don't know I don't know with that word, but that's beautiful I love it. Yeah I go.

01:19:44.15
Greg Boyd
That god's goal for the whole creation was to be all in all god wants to be all in all. God's love the love that's reveal and calvary is going to define every square inch of the cosmos in the end it will be everything that is not consistent with that love is gonna get burned up. It's got to get burned up. All all all non love all hate all arrogance all racism all apathy, all torture perversion 6 stuff that we've done to people. It's all got to get burned up in all of us and that's what the final judgment's all about and and that.

01:20:16.72
forestandtrees
Ah.

01:20:18.70
Greg Boyd
That won't be pleasant. It's not pleasant in this life when we got to burn up the stuff that we you know our selfishness but that's the whole process of of growing in Christ is is to burn up all the stuff. That's not Christ like do it now or it's goingnna get done later and it's's it's going to hurt more later. But even then it's the purpose is not to inflict pain. But to to but to redeem people the free people from the the lies that we've believed that have caused us to live such subhuman lives and a treat people in subhuman ways and to have a disregard for the earth in the animal kingdom I think god's always let me that say.

01:20:52.80
Jeremy
Amen and amen woof.

01:20:53.45
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I love that view. Um, yeah, great I was noticing. You kept using the phrase god is not coercive and that's something that the Jeremy has said to me over and over again. God is not coercive. And the whole time I was thinking like I wonder what he's going to say about um, universal reconciliation because of course you know the traditional view of hell like nothing could be more coercive than if you don't worship me I'm going to torture you. So yeah I appreciate you you having a more positive spin on that.

01:21:23.96
Greg Boyd
Yeah I I really think that that's this idea of eternal torture is just been. You know it's it's it's such an over thetop manipulation toy. It's like if you can get people to believe that. You can scare them into doing anything you know? Um, ah that that's precisely why I think it's Antichrist. It's it's strictly counter to you know it's not plausible I think people hear that it's like what that's not that't the fear in anybody that sounds like it's so obviously contrary to.

01:21:45.57
forestandtrees
Um.

01:21:46.45
Jeremy
Oh.

01:22:02.45
Greg Boyd
Our most basic moral instincts you know and like even if you heard that someone was doing it to hitler for all eternity. You'd think well that person's sicker than Hitler and and yeah, so it's not a selling point anymore. Maybe it wasn't the middle ages but nowadays I think it's bad.

01:22:10.18
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:22:20.29
Greg Boyd
What's much more plausible I think what people can relate to is this that our our behavior when we're self-centered and tribalistic and nationalistic and looking out for number 1 we bring destruction on ourselves and others. Our behavior is inherently self-destructive. And I think that's just getting more and more clear right now with our whole the way we've ravaged this planet for our own without any respect for putting anything back into it. We've been just sucking out the oil getting these fossil fuels to build this babble that we've built that has. Yeah, requiring this enormous amount of energy constantly on a diminishing resource. We built a perpetual earth economy on a perpetual diminishing resource which by the way also traps heat and so we're warming up this planet bringing about this chaos and we've we've known what we were doing from the start since 1800.

01:23:02.75
forestandtrees
Um.

01:23:16.26
Greg Boyd
There are people back in 18 hunter were saying we should maybe be moderate with this use of oil because it's a finite resource use it and you know for. But no, we just wanted to like have as much of it as possible right now because it brings about this technology with all this great advancement and all this blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Look at the heaven. We've built for ourselves and it's incredible. It really is incredible. We know our standard of living is multiple times higher than any other people in all of history. Um, but it can't last it can't ah and and it's built on a lie on this illusion and it's being a destruction on ourselves.

01:23:42.39
forestandtrees
Um.

01:23:51.41
Greg Boyd
And that's what always I think people can relate to that and that's that's how I see judgment in the bible. It's God letting us hang ourselves with the news says given us.

01:24:02.90
forestandtrees
Oh totally? Yeah I can that's something I thought about a lot of like how how like the book of revelation can be metaphorically true like everything you're describing of the way we've made a hell on Earth and the idea of the sky will go dark and the sea will turn to blood and ah just it'll be like death and destruction. Because of our own sin like that's in in a very abstract way that's describing the consequences of climate change because of Fossil fuels. Yeah.

01:24:26.96
Greg Boyd
Yeah, it's It's a it's a classic example and maybe the fatal example of our uberus we thought and we still think you get to. We're smart enough to figure this out. We're gonna come up with someone's gonna giant something. We're gonna get be able to get this suck all the carbon out of the atmosphere atmosphere We have these you know.

01:24:34.90
forestandtrees
Oh.

01:24:46.49
Greg Boyd
Or or the the geoengineering we're going to create our own clouds that are goingnna be able to block this and they're holding out hope for this. Um and how has that been working for us. You know? Yeah, how's that working in the past whenever we screw mother nature. How yeah, how's that working we've we've so messed this up and all the chemicals we're putting on all of our.

01:25:01.10
forestandtrees
Um.

01:25:06.40
Greg Boyd
You know produce in order to have enough of it to grow it all our meat and our industrial farms and all of that and and now we're finding out that it's affecting our hormones I don't know if you've been reading up on this but these forever chemicals that are in there and they a there We we know that theyreak Havoc on mice you know that may.

01:25:18.48
forestandtrees
Um.

01:25:26.15
Greg Boyd
Mice that male mice become more feminized feminize mice become more masculine it it. It tends to level out that the gender distinctions we already are finding that the sperm count among men is just diving and this has been for the last thirty years this thing where the average male now.

01:25:40.58
forestandtrees
Ah.

01:25:44.88
Greg Boyd
2 2 little stats are I bet you didn't think we'd be mentioning on the podcast but you know I don't Germany told you but I have a d and so it it tends to bounce all over place because everything's connecteded everything else, but um, ah let we know built but it's a case that.

01:25:48.56
forestandtrees
Um, now bring it. Yeah.

01:25:54.85
Jeremy
We we are here for the tangents.

01:25:56.54
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, pre preached it gregg.

01:26:02.83
Greg Boyd
Our sperm cows in western culture are about half what they were 1970 and the average male pain of size is shrunk about 20% I didn't know they measured that. But apparently they do and yeah so I'm glad ah I this is okay.

01:26:16.70
forestandtrees
It's like God is trying to send us a message you know like were you we don't with mass.

01:26:21.42
Greg Boyd
This is 1 example where I'm glad that I'm older than you guys. What.

01:26:23.94
Jeremy
Ah, Wow Wow That is the ultimate roast right? there.

01:26:24.10
forestandtrees
God Sent God Sent plagues. He sent famine. He sent War God is he's hitting us where it hurts you know like we have.

01:26:33.11
Greg Boyd
Big Go Ah um.

01:26:38.10
forestandtrees
Genocide and plague and famine. We don't listen to that. But if the minute he starts making our penises smaller. That's that's the only where we're going to get our act together.

01:26:43.39
Jeremy
God's like I'll get I'll get their attention I don't know that that feels kind of coercive to me Greg I don't know.

01:26:44.33
Greg Boyd
This ought to do it all shrink for penises now please version should you my God to ourselves a guy's not doing it. You know I think in God's will he would like I all have you know, very enhanced penises but in this fallen world.

01:26:51.26
forestandtrees
Yeah God is not coerce.

01:26:57.97
Jeremy
Ah, ah.

01:26:59.47
forestandtrees
It's ah yeah, well, ah perfect bodies of course and.

01:27:04.29
Greg Boyd
Yeah, we there you go? Yeah, okay then get tired socalled.

01:27:06.40
Jeremy
There's a hot take. There's a hot take for a social media clip. Ah, however, how romans 9 explains penis size.

01:27:13.80
forestandtrees
Ah, we actually well we talked about that many episodes ago of like why? why did God not make us with with perfect penises. Why did he require some modification.

01:27:21.43
Greg Boyd
Speak for yourself had won generalize that maybe some supposed have perfect peniss. Never that might look like.

01:27:31.48
forestandtrees
Ah, oh bad. That's ah so much wisdom there I'm going to be processing that this this for weeks just that at closing Monologue that's soliloquy.

01:27:36.68
Greg Boyd
Ah, this.

01:27:41.10
Greg Boyd
Yeah, yeah, yeah know I thought we were kind of got going to get you know like a wiser and wiser as the podcast went on but I think we're kind of going in the other direction to generate.

01:27:50.38
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, ah yeah, you know Greg I I was actually really hoping that you would join us for chapter 14 to talk about um because that's where Paul talks about some people eat meat. Some people eat only vegetables. You know that that's something that. Ah.

01:28:03.33
Greg Boyd
Um, I might.

01:28:05.16
forestandtrees
Jeremy and I'd debate sometimes and and I know you're Youtube team. Are you vegetarian or vegan. Yeah sit same here same here I'm like no no meat. You know, try to avoid? um.

01:28:08.96
Greg Boyd
Well we're we're I'm a hypocritical vegan I started be vegan when I can no.

01:28:21.30
forestandtrees
Dare Dairy and eggs I mean I don't I don't have dairy eggs but I'm kind of like a not read the labels kind of vegan you know like it's it's it's difficult at while while traveling or or well you know.

01:28:27.16
Greg Boyd
Um, but then oh yeah, yeah, there are cases like that you know and so I that that's what I mean by my hypocritical vegan. it's it's ah there's times where I will get cheese and whatever if if possible I always try to get free range. Um. But you can't guarantee that when you're out traveling around or whatever. So all so I did that'll be for another podcast I'll be glad weigh in this and you and I can just douse this this this pagan Jeremy with his meeting ways. Yeah yeah, there you go.

01:28:47.37
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

01:28:52.61
forestandtrees
Yeah I've got I've got a new hat that I'll present to Jeremy all he has to do is say the word.

01:28:53.66
Jeremy
Ah, oh.

01:28:59.96
Jeremy
Yeah, you know I I enjoy a good black bean burger friends come on can I be in.

01:29:02.00
Greg Boyd
Go. Well yeah, but yeah, youre as long as he likes the black V Burger Ban you're righteous. You just don't don't have real thing it my pleasure. It's still fun.

01:29:08.10
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, all are welcome. Yeah, ah yeah, seriously.

01:29:11.59
Jeremy
Okay, sweet I'm in well Greg thank you for for taking your time. Ah I mean and I would just say to you know anyone listening watching he's he's referencing. So many ideas that he's written full books on so like you know, cross vision crucifixion of the warrior god inspired imperfection god of the possible I mean I'm literally like thinking back as you're answering some of these questions I'm like you have a full book on that and so if if someone's going man this is great I want to go deeper on any of these. Yeah.

01:29:28.21
forestandtrees
Man.

01:29:45.72
Jeremy
You got a whole lineup of books that explore a whole bunch of these topics in in a lot of depth. So I just want to give ah a plug for you there.

01:29:51.78
forestandtrees
Yeah, absolutely, it's it's not that many people I know in real life who I can say you're a gentleman and a scholar but but Greg it it actually applies to you literally.

01:29:52.42
Greg Boyd
Heavy.

01:30:01.20
Greg Boyd
Why don't you I appreciate that and I let me say I Really respect this this podcast that you that you can have this kind of dialogue. Um and and you know aside from just talking about interesting ideas and and getting perspectives out there. Um, we're at a time in history where. Yeah,, we're so polarized and there's so much toxicity and we're losing basic decorum and decency and all that any kind of modeling we can do of how to disagree and they had to have fun and respect one another. That's always a plus. So hats off you guys for good document.

01:30:32.26
Jeremy
Well thank you we we definitely have enjoyed it and we've heard you know we've heard that same thought from people like oh I can I can take this same premise to you know Thanksgiving dinner and you know and like we can. We can learn how to to be kind to people even if we don't see you know things eye to eye.

01:30:35.50
forestandtrees
Um, oh thank you.

01:30:50.13
Jeremy
So I appreciate that.

01:30:50.65
Greg Boyd
Amen and amen love it. Love it. So let's do it again sometime.

01:30:54.62
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, thanks so much Greg. Yeah, thanks for everyone listening ah apologies to any sincere calvinist out there. We hope you made it this far sorry for dishing on you this whole time. But this is so much fun if if you're a real true blue.

01:31:08.71
Greg Boyd
Maybe have un successful with learning hey go.

01:31:10.92
Jeremy
We were predestined to do it. We couldn't couldn't control it.

01:31:12.87
forestandtrees
Calvinist yeah, right in credence. Yeah yeah, all all the jokes all right bye folks stock deal later.

01:31:18.59
Greg Boyd
Am I take care guys.