Romans 8 - Inarticulate Groanings - with Trans Regret Snoopy!

We bring on our very first guest Ariel from Trans Regret Snoopy Presents the Bible. The three of us consult various translations, discuss the workings of the Holy Spirit, and possibly even find a solution for how Calvinism and Universalism can both be true!

Topics
Bible Translations
What’s so great about Romans 8?
What is the sinful nature?
What are the groans?
Does God work everything together for good?
Will everyone be saved?

Books
The Pastor by Eugene Peterson
The Forgotten Creed by Steven J. Patterson
That All Shall be Saved by David Bentley Hart
The Better Angels of our Nature by Steven Pinker

Can a calvinist believe they’re not elect?

We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at ​​forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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YouTube
Facebook

Transcript

00:01.00
Jeremy
Well hello friends we are back romans chapter 8 and today is going to be extra special for so many. So many reasons I'm so excited to get into this as always my name is Jeremy and I'm joined today by my friend. Jeff.

00:16.59
forestandtrees
Um, ah um, I'm groaning as as as with all of creation.

00:24.23
Jeremy
Okay, that's not even a that's not even a quote I mean last week you gave an obscure movie that.

00:30.47
forestandtrees
Yeah, last last week I I gave a reference to a popular movie that everyone has heard of at least 56% of the of our listeners it was over. It was over fifty percent I thought ok.

00:31.70
Ariel
Of how the.

00:36.41
Jeremy
How let you say? how did the vote go for you. The vote did not go the way you thought did it. It was almost it was almost fifty fifty which I love it that half of our readers were like don't know the movie and you were so mad at me in the episode.

00:49.57
forestandtrees
They don't have a Netflix subscription. Apparently yeah.

00:56.13
Jeremy
That I had failed you and now you're not even quoting movies. You're just making sounds has it come to this ah you that was your all of creation impression.

00:59.80
forestandtrees
I'm quote I'm quoting all of creation because I figured you know, ah have you ever heard of a Jeremy have you heard of all of creation. It's it's a thing I'm groaning. It's in the bible romans eight even read the bible jeremy.

01:16.77
Jeremy
Ah, okay, well that is not what's gonna make today's episode special but we're gonna change it up a little bit I'm gonna start before I give us the overview of where we're going in this episode which is going to be exciting so just buckle up now. Especially if you're driving in your car while you listen to this I'm going to share a verse to just set the tone if you have listened to last few episodes. We've been talking I feel like a lot in the last couple about the holy spirit and you know this? Ah this idea of is it easier for believers to live out. You know a moral life compared to that of an atheist and we've kind of been talking about the ethics behind that and so in in that line I want to think about verse 11 of romans eight which this is a beautiful passage Paul writes the spirit of god who raised Jesus from the dead lives in. You and just as god raised Christ jesus from the dead he will give life to your mortal bodies by the same spirit living within you which as we have talked about is a gigantic advantage. If you are considering yourself a believer if you would say the holy spirit lives inside of you Paul saying literally the same spirit that reanimated the lifeless body of Jesus is the same spirit that we have today which I don't know Jeff I think that's.

02:48.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, that that is cool. That's of course something we we've talked about before of like I kind of have the question of is the Holy spirit a thing like I remember when I was a Christian I used to think about that of like oh I Wonder what? it's like for for those other people on the outside like do they feel a difference. They feel.

02:48.34
Jeremy
That's kind of cool. What do you think.

03:07.48
forestandtrees
Less than and you know, but now it's now that I'm kind of living outside of the spirit perhaps or maybe I'm not maybe I'm still in the spirit I don't know about it I don't I feel I feel very unsure about the whole thing. But yeah I don't know I I like that idea of you know life giving Spirit energy. Um, into it.

03:31.53
Jeremy
Um, life giving spirit energy there. You go. That's let's just take on verse eleven I just think it's cool because I think a lot of times we read, you know something in the text and it's it's a lifetime ago. It's you know, happened. And a galaxy far far away to to quote something that you you know is near and dear to your heart Jeff but you know Paul's like look. It's the same spirit There's there's only one holy spirit I also think this is fascinating. We can pair different denominations today even christians who can't seem to agree on all sorts of things and you know I was.

03:48.51
forestandtrees
Um, ah.

04:06.38
Jeremy
In a somewhat contentious conversation not too long ago with a room full of pastors who did not agree with some of the things I was sharing and I just reminded them like wherever we land on all this the reality is there's only one Holy Spirit. So If if we do indeed have the Holy Spirit. We All have the same Holy spirit which is just I think a humbling reminder for all of us When. We want to make these differences that we have huge. It's the same Holy Spirit. So I think that's Cool. It's not ah, not exactly where else going with that. But.

04:29.20
forestandtrees
Yeah, we're we're all the same totally and and and we're not alone Jeremy you know you and I may not even agree on whether or not the holy spirit is with us right now but we do have someone else with us right now that that we should.

04:35.76
Ariel
Um.

04:47.76
Jeremy
Well hold on. We're not hold on because we're gonna get there. We're gonna get there I want to give an overview of where we're going and then you you can you can go for it that is a little tease but not long to use of sortes. So today we're going to explore the value.

04:48.60
forestandtrees
Bring into the show and welcome. Oh oh oh you more to say I'm sorry. Okay, oh okay, all right? That's a tease.

05:07.23
Jeremy
Of reading multiple translations of the bible something we have we have not covered at all yet. So we're gonna get into that we're gonna look at why romans eight is an amazing chapter in light of the entire bible which is pretty cool. Talk about what chapter 8 means for our sinful nature which is something we've been hitting on the last few episodes as well as as was indicated by Jeff's and I use this term loosely quote at the beginning of the episode. We're going to explore how we understand the spirit praying for us. With groanings and whether god's love and future glory will extend to everyone and in addition to all of that as if that lineup by itself. Jeff wasn't enough. We have our very first guest.

05:55.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

06:00.92
Jeremy
On today's show

06:01.94
forestandtrees
It's true. We have a first guest. Our friend Ariel a friend of the show host of the transreg regret Snoopy presents the bible podcast welcome Ariel thank you so much for being with us.

06:13.66
Ariel
Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be the first guest the show I'm a big fan.

06:20.59
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, they thanks so much for for being here. We've you know we've communicated a couple times before I've been on your podcast a couple times which has been really fun and ah yeah, so we're this is this is like a new thing for us. Ah having a guest being like.

06:27.62
Ariel
Um, yeah.

06:36.34
forestandtrees
Ah, podcast. It's a friend of another podcast. You know it still kind of feels like we're we're trying it out feeling it out for the first time. But yeah, why do you tell? Ah, tell us about yourself and your podcast.

06:48.43
Ariel
Ah, well as you mentioned my name' is Ariel I'm the host of transresnoopy presents the bible which is a podcast that's been running for almost three years now um it was it started as sort of a pandemic passion project and became ah something that. Sort of took over my life in a lot of ways. It's what I do with most of my free time. It is ah the way that I sort of use as a it's it's a tool for me to to go deeper into my own faith and and yeah I mean it's it's a really great show I have all kinds of really great guests on and. And a lot of folks like myself that come from sort of the margins either. You know, sexual minorities, gender minorities and and folks that are usually kind of underrepresented in Christian circles and and so yeah, that's that's what I do with the podcast outside of that I love Jesus. I I play a little music from time to time I like to read um and mostly reading Christian stuff lately? Ah, but so but yeah, thank you again for for having me on.

07:50.41
Jeremy
And if if any of our listeners check out your podcast you'll quickly learn Ariel is what a professional bible podcast sounds like and so if you have gotten used to ours. You're gonna be so impressed.

08:07.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

08:08.12
Jeremy
By what Ariel is doing and then you'll come back to forests and trees and go what is this? What are what are we doing here and so Ariel seriously we're so excited to have you today. Your your podcast is incredible and you listen to it and you just realize yeah I mean it's obvious you love Jesus? It's obvious you love the bible. And you you just get into it and such a reverence for it and I love the way you just kind of calmly break it down and you know we were joking earlier about you have a very soothing voice and so it's you know it's like I was driving in the car listening to it and. Just like so relax listening to someone you know unpack the bible for me is is great but one of the things I noticed is and this is very different than our show. You use a lot of bible translations. I mean you were just you were firing all sorts I think I counted like 10 to 12 loosely in my head of like trying to keep up with you and you're using Greek and hebrew I mean you're you're going all over the place and it's I mean it was is incredible and it my first thought is how long does it take you to write these episodes because man that seems like so much work but it was really cool and it it wasn't. You know sometimes preachers do that. Let me tell you the greek and it has nothing to do really with what we're talking about but it you know makes the preacher look at I didn't get that sense from you that you were just like let me show you how many versions of the bible I have right? It was like legitimately let's ah you know let's let's explore how these are nuanced and different.

09:38.40
Jeremy
I Would just love you know to hear from you because I think most people only read one version. We only use the the new living translation just kind of for the sake of clarity on this. But what are your thoughts on you know why is it a benefit to use more than one and maybe what should our listeners consider in that.

09:56.24
Ariel
I think it's it's it's always been kind of interesting to me how it seems like everybody kind of falls into their preferred translation and there doesn't really seem to be a rhyme of reason behind other than the church that they're um that they're attending or are a part of why they would fall into one particular. Ah translation. It's just the one that they found or the one that they feel most at home at and it's that's not wrong. It's actually really good I think um for someone to to have like a home base to return to you always want to have like that sort of comfort zone with the scripture. The problem with only using one translation. Is that we speak english and nothing that happened in the time of Jesus or before happened when people were speaking english not even close to the english at least that we speak today right. Ah, somewhere in a distant far. Ah far distant corner of the world. Someone was speaking something that started to kind of look like what we speak but the entire ah the entire world was different so we have to know that the translations that we have are. Going to miss some cues from the original text. Ah, everyone uses the sort of source base ah transcripts and manuscripts ah to create their more well-trodden translations but the results are.

11:22.17
Ariel
Hugely varied even the this ah this the verse that you read right? at the beginning of the episode Verse 11 I use the esv as sort of my home base generally don't know why I landed there but it's where I landed and the nlt in in the nlt that you read there. It has. Ah, sort of certainty to it. The esv takes that ah takes that sentence and turns it into kind of a question and that can have a very very different meaning to whoever would be reading it and so it's it's always just been fascinating to me I was an English major in College. That's what I got my degree in.

11:47.10
Jeremy
Oh. Right? okay.

11:58.70
Ariel
And and so I've always kind of had that analytical mind with writing but it seems to me like if we are to understand that the bible is inspired by God which I believe I don't think it's perfect. But I do think that it's inspired by God that um. The closer we can get to the original text the closer we can get to the source the closer we are to understanding what God is really saying to us versus ah you know sort of just taking someone at face value with what they're saying I can imagine. There are people out there in the world that only use the message. That's their. That's their home based bible. And there's nothing wrong with the message right? I use the message on my podcast. You might have heard me use it I think it's great for sort of creating these these bite sized morsels of of scripture to to eat to consume. But I don't think that it's ah it's a full meal. I Think you really really need to understand how much more meaning there is than what you have in front of you in black and white in just one translation.

12:53.77
Jeremy
Ah.

13:00.93
Jeremy
Now Would you say there's there's maybe a handful of them that you go back to more than others.

13:08.16
Ariel
Yeah I think that like the um, you know like I said the esv is where I where I sort of started. It was my first bible when I was reconverted into christianity when I came back to Jesus and and then some folks that I whose opinions I respect. Were um, sort of leaning more towards the and nrsv or the NkJV and every translation has issues I think with ah you know little bits of context or little words that they change. Ah the n rsv seems to be academically the one that that folks in. In theological settings to seem to rely on the most these days now I could be wrong about that. But that seems to be the one that folks be using. but um but I like the J B Phillips New testament translation is awesome. The um David Bentley heart

13:43.20
Jeremy
No, that's what that's what we used at Fuller when I got my masters that was the recommended version.

13:55.89
Ariel
New testament translation is incredible I will be talking about that today.

13:57.20
Jeremy
when you quoted yeah when you quoted David Bentley Hart it was like oh my guy I love that guy. He's he is so great and has helped has helped me work through a lot of the the obviously of the hell topic but that that was great.

14:07.22
Ariel
Ah, ah and the guy is absolutely brilliant and his translation's amazing. He actually is is releasing or has just released a second edition of this which I haven't picked up yet. But um, ah well I'll be bringing this one to our conversation about. Ah.

14:18.72
Jeremy
On.

14:24.18
Ariel
About the verses that we're going to talk about later but um, yeah, any any others that come off the top of my head.. There's this really kind of weird common English one that I use called the voice which is kind of like the message but it's not really like the message. It hasn't been um, published as many times over and over again as the message has I don't know why it didn't strike the same kind of chord. Has a similar vibe. But um, there are uses of the text that I think are truer to the original meaning than um, the message where the message kind of veers into its own ah message.

14:56.80
Jeremy
I always I got lost in the message on psalm chapter one that was it psalm 1 in the message to me is the weirdest like he just was having a off day or a creative day or something but Peterson just gets weird in psalm one and so there's little. Little easter egg for you. Go read read the message someone. That's that was my biggest hangup but I think I you know it's in my own study I use that? um, but yeah, we just don't we haven't used it in the show and I thought you you do a really good job of that on your podcast.

15:15.36
Ariel
Ah.

15:25.88
forestandtrees
I always remember the message was pitched to me like when I was in youth group like middle school high school and it like the pitch was oh this is like cool street lingo I think I remember maybe my first version that I saw of it was the message remix which is like the even even cooler edgier version.

15:44.40
Jeremy
Comes with a DJ.

15:45.19
forestandtrees
And I just thought yeah yeah, and just the language I thought that was maybe it was like the expectations I brought to it but like it just it didn't seem like as hip and cool as as it was pitched to me. It seemed a little bit more like your grandpa like trying to be cool. You know it like ah an an old.

16:00.56
Jeremy
Well until you see if yeah, see you see a photo of what Eugene Peterson look like right? You're like it is grandpa's version.

16:05.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Eugene Peterson is um is Steve bohemy with a skateboard being. How do you do fellow kids meme.

16:13.24
Jeremy
Ah, how dare you defile Peterson like that.

16:17.95
forestandtrees
Ah, he's cool. He's he's He's cool because he's so uncool right? like he didn't he turned down hanging out with Bono because he was translating the message right is like the famous story about him. So yeah.

16:29.38
Jeremy
It's funny I so I teach a ah practical ministry course online for undergrad and 1 of his books is one of the assigned books I have for for the students and it's called the pastor and it's just his life and he talks about writing the message and all that. And I assigned that book and I also assigned one of Andy Stanley's books. That's all about you know the the church and the students either Love Peterson and Hate Stanley or vice versa and it's it's like it's just so funny that no one goes to the class like I like both of these equally um and. Ah, you know Peterson's all over the place in the pastor is a you have chapters where you like what are you? What are you talking? How does this have anything to do with being a pastor and that's a little bit like psalm chapter one for me. But you know what to each teach his own I guess it's great.

17:18.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Ah well yeah, thank yeah Ariel thanks again for you know, kind of classing up the join and bringing bringing a higher level of scholarly acumen to to our lowly podcast we we really appreciate it. Ah so so. So 1 reason why I thought you might be interested in doing the romans 8 episodes specifically was because you've covered romans a as we've mentioned before on your podcast where as we said that everyone should go listen to that because you go much more indepth you break into multiple episodes you you bring multiple translations. Um. Butm just curious if you wanted to share for us. Um, like what? why did you select Romans in the first place that was another thing was yeah, you voted on our Instagram poll you voted for romans over genesis and John which like I was surprised why anyone would choose romans over other 2 books. So I'm just curious. Ah you know what. Why did you choose the romans and why is romans 8 specifically um your possibly your favorite chapter in the entire bible as you say.

18:22.90
Ariel
Ah, okay, so that's at the risk of going along with this explanation ah romans is like ah the best thing that Paul wrote in my opinion I think it's like if if ah if Paul's writing was his like his albums his discography like romans eight is his kind of blue like it is um, he's hitting every note he feels everything that he's saying and I think in a lot of ways Paul goes deeper in romans eight. Ah, theologically than he really does in in many of the other chapters and he does and any really any of the other letters that he wrote and he does it in a way that's more coherent and I think um more linear there are deep concepts in first corinthians and second corinthians and thessalonians ever really everything he wrote. Has elements of what you see in Romans ah romans is obviously bigger. So it's like a bigger sample size. But I think just the ah the language that he uses the flow of the language that he uses carries and holds together a lot better. Um, at least in large chunks than other. Ah. Pieces that he's written and and romans I think romans eight maybe to me like feels that way because it doesn't break for context with the church that he's talking to at all a lot of his other letters will say and that's why I'm sending titus to you or.

19:44.56
forestandtrees
Humph.

19:49.11
Ariel
And by the way when I was there you said this and this and this and I told you not to do that or you know sort of odd little side notes. But here he goes like wholeheartedly into this topic of essentially writing a a version of the gospel in a condensed way. And I think it's like this this distilled version of the gospel in in such like a metaphysical way that I find just absolutely fascinating. Also I find at times Paul is really obsessed with behavior and rules and this totally frees this chat to me. This chapter frees him of that obsession in a way and lets him kind of Zoom out to the bigger picture of what it meant when Jesus Died was resurrected what it meant. Ah, you know what it means for us to be justified what it means for us to be sanctified. You know as christians what it means to be in.

20:28.59
Jeremy
Ah.

20:45.57
Ariel
In Christ or or having the spirit in us. You know all of those things are these these sort of fluid concepts and Paul does his best I think in romans eight to to hammer that down why romans for me I don't overall honestly I don't know but I've I've been drawn to it when I was when i.

21:01.80
forestandtrees
Um.

21:03.94
Ariel
Again when I was converted again when I came back to christianity I didn't like Paul initially I had about a year where I couldn't stand reading his letters. They just repulse to me and I don't know why I think it was more like ah they convicted me of sins that i. Felt that I was probably guilty of that I wanted to I wanted to push away. They made me uncomfortable talking about topics that I wasn't really ready to approach or they confuse me because they're often more complicated than an early christian is is ready to handle. Um, but as I sort of grew in my faith and things went on. ah I'm I'm ah I wouldn't say I'm obsessed but I did 5 I think 4 or 5 episodes of my podcast about romans 8 alone just breaking it up into pieces and and taking it sort of word by word.

21:52.38
forestandtrees
Yeah, thanks for sharing that man, you're you're selling me on it, especially ah the um, the character of Paul I feel like I've been on a little bit of a similar journey or maybe maybe I'm still at the beginning of where you were on your journey of like I came into specifically this. Season of our show where we're covering romans and feeling like I was just dreading it it like I was bummed out at the thought of covering a pauline epistle because I had a a very negative view of Paul um, by a lot I love your description of that there. There certainly is a lot more beauty and nuance than. But I was probably giving him credit for with my the perception I was bringing to the text in the first place.

22:33.24
Jeremy
Well Jeff you and I talked about I don't feel his last episode or 2 epsils ago the the book the forgotten creed and I know that you've read it now and I thought that book did such a great job of almost like.

22:43.25
forestandtrees
Um.

22:47.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

22:48.95
Jeremy
Winning you back over to Paul like all the all the worst things that are attributed to Paul Paul probably didn't write you know and then author is kind of explaining like here's why that probably wasn't paul and I read that book and I was like Paul's even better than I thought you know like okay maybe he's not so bad you know and it is funny I think.

22:59.22
forestandtrees
I Know yeah.

23:01.62
Ariel
Um.

23:07.70
Jeremy
To a certain type of of person. We. We affectionately refer to them as theobros on our show you know Paul Paul can often get used as I'm going to almost use this text as a weapon to shame you or guilt you or create fear in you of your out of line. And I think that's what a lot of people react to and you guys are you know both kind of sharing that that kind of reaction to Paul of like oh oh no I don't want this but there really is a beauty here and maybe Paul's not the monster. We've made him out to be.

23:38.94
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's that's a great plug we we should find a time to talk more about the forgotten creed in general because that's you know there's so much to to get into there but it yeah it is a great book anyone who anyone who like me thinks Paul is just a a grumpy old bad guy. Ah.

23:56.60
forestandtrees
Not worth not worth listening to yeah that that's a book that's it's worth checking out. It's it's like it's good news if you want to defend Paul it's kind of bad news if you want to defend like the canon of scripture because it means that there's a lot of like forgeries in there and stuff. But yeah, we'll have to talk about it more some other time I think. Yeah.

24:15.10
Jeremy
Another another bonus episode maybe where we're making bonus episodes. Okay, so I want to get into see some specific verses here now that we've got Ariel here this romans eight expert in our midst. Ah. So verse 9 and I apologize I have all these in in the new living translation. So you're gonna have to to bear with us. Um, but this is this is a theme. We've really been hitting on I'd love for you to add your voice to this conversation pulses. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the spirit. If you have the spirit of god living in you again going back to this this kind of debate Jeff and I seem to to keep circling around in you know and our conversations with the book of romans. Ah so we've talked a lot about sinful nature lately I would love to hear Ariel how does this verse and really all of chapter 8 or all of the book of romans if you want. Shape the way that you understand what is Paul talking about here when it comes to sinful nature.

25:13.40
Ariel
So this is ah the perfect first to start us off about ah talking about different translations and how important it is to to understand that this the sources of these words that we're reading in the Esv which I'm not saying is any more reliable necessarily than than the nlt. But. In the esv that verse is you however, are not in the flesh but in the spirit if in fact, the spirit of god dwells in you anyone who does not have the spirit of Christ does not belong to him. Um, the only reason why I feel like that's a more accurate translation. Is the word. That's actually used for sinful nature in the nlt is closer to the flesh than it is sinful. Nature. It seems like ah actually kind of an editorial jump on the nlts part which they have to do in certain ways if you're going to create a cohesive sentence. You can't just have words repeated too much. You can't. Have um, you know things have to be in order. You have to construct an argument even if you're just translating something. The word is sarks sar x in the greek and it's a word that's used hundreds of it. So I think it's like something like 150 times in the new testament and in almost every. Usage of it. It is flesh. Ah, it's referring to literal flesh like meat on the bone. Not so much a sinful nature. Um, the reason why I bring this up is an important distinction I think is because I'm not a believer in the idea that human beings are inherently.

26:49.10
Ariel
Sinful that we don't have that sinful nature cooked into us because of what happened in the garden of Eden right? because of of original sin the original sin I don't believe that we have original sin I do however think sin exists and sin is everywhere. So like. The potential for sin we have the potential to do bad things but it doesn't mean that we're going to and and will be doomed to do that because we have a sinful nature. Um I think I mean I understand what the nlt is doing here and and like. They're trying to separate the idea of a sinful nature versus being in Christ or being in the spirit. But I think that like the line between those 2 things is understandably a lot blurrier to me and and if you read more into this chapter and other places Paul. Paul admits himself to doing things that he shouldn't do to wanting to do things that he shouldn't do. He has sin to he has sinned to and so that is like not a um, something that keeps you from from being in the spirit. It has more to do with your faith. Um, whether or not the spirit dwells in you has more to do with ah whether or not you believe then it has to do with your behavior being a certain way or acting a certain way. Did I answer your question or did I get too far to the side. There.

28:18.27
Jeremy
Nothing. That's fantastic and you know I had shared a quote previously from a guy named Andrew Farley who uses an analogy. He refers to sin as kind of like a parasite like it's not you. It's this thing that can kind of hijack you a little bit but it's not you and we've talked about originalalson. Ah, on the podcast as well and I I would I would totally agree with you on that. But I think you know I guess more pastorally people often wonder especially christians of like why do I want to sin you know why? Why do I crave something that that kind of intellectually I know like that's not right. But I have that desire and I think that's where you know and and again to to paraphrase you know, obviously what the lts doing is like this this idea of this There's this other side of me, you know, whatever you call it and I think christians are trying to figure out like practically how do you navigate that and so again, do you think you know with understanding it as flesh does that practically help you.

29:09.59
Ariel
Um.

29:15.60
Jeremy
In the moment when you seem to be craving something that you're like man I don't think I should do that. How does that play out in real time for you.

29:23.40
Ariel
Ah, well I think that like ah the avoidance of sin is a minute by minute practice and it's something that you have to be you have to be okay with failing at and understanding that you will not be doomed for eternity if you do fail. Because failing is in our flesh. Um, there's there's a verse that we'll talk about a little bit later where it says that um that god ah condemned sin in the flesh and it's a really interesting turn of phrase. But basically what that means to me is that this flesh that we inhabit the flesh that we live in. Um, how we you know how we carry the gospel to those who haven't known a god who haven't known Jesus. Ah, we need this vessel in order to do that. But the vessel is inherently flawed the vessel is inherently it has an expiration date right? and it can go sour if it's not refrigerated. That's a bad metaphor but but.

30:21.10
forestandtrees
Not scrap. Love it.

30:23.64
Jeremy
Ah, so we are all a gallon of milk I think is what you're saying i.

30:27.64
Ariel
We're So yeah, we're like sacks of meat. You know like we're in in reality flesh I mean literal meat that that it comes with the territory of being a human being to have the urge to fall.

30:30.69
forestandtrees
No, this is beautiful I Love this.

30:44.24
Ariel
And um, the only thing that can help us in those situations is understanding I think understanding why we don't want to rather than creating a mindset of why we should fear falling. Um. Rather than thinking of it as like a trapeze where if I sin I fall off and then my neck is broken and I'm dead. Um, think about how great it is for you to stay on that balance beam. How amazing it is that you manage to stay balanced and not fall off That's the glory that Paul is talking about It's not It's not about necessarily like what you fear as the alternative but it's understanding the glory and the love of god as such an amazing thing that that's what propels you forward in it. But sometimes you fall.

31:32.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, I'm still thinking about your sacks of meat analogy like this.

31:33.80
Jeremy
That's beautiful.

31:38.29
Jeremy
This is the problem with having a designer as a co-host because he's like right now in his head. He's drawing something and he's like oh this is gonna be amazing.

31:44.11
forestandtrees
Well I mean I'm thinking about this is like why we have so much anxiety about a I taking over the world because this is what what a I is thinking right? Now. It's like what is the deal with these sacks of me that are so Limited. By their fleshly mortal coils if we can just be digital pure intelligence like we can just wipe the floor with these guys. Yeah, yeah, exactly ah all right? Well yeah, let's let's talk a little bit more about.

32:04.26
Jeremy
And they keep asking me these ridiculous prompts and chat Gp T search engines.

32:18.21
forestandtrees
Spirit and and figure out what all this groaning is about right? so in jumping ahead to verse 26 this was that this was my self-identifieded like favorite verse ever for for many years. Ah like since since like bible college throughout like. Early twenty s I'd say so romans 34 and the holy spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what god wants us to pray for but the holy spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. So I'll say that I still really enjoy this passage and this idea because. I don't I like how kind of mysterious it is and it and it sort of like explains like some of the gaps and ambiguities about god and the spirit and like you know what? why are things so unclear. Well maybe it's because our our human minds can't handle it. So. That's why we need these inarticulate groanings. But of course that's another thing I've talked about. A bunch on the show is like the problem with people always talk about you know god doesn't speak audibly at least not most of the time and like you know people say they heard from the spirit and maybe it is some kind of inarticulate groaning. But then that's a problem because no 2 christians agree on what god or the holy spirit or Jesus is telling them. At any given time so I wanted to ask a question for both Jeremy and Ariel how do you guys make sense of the spirits inarticulate groanings in your own life. Whoever wants to go first.

33:52.51
Jeremy
Um, dang it I was just gonna I was gonna copy what you said I actually love I love the heart behind this and you know just that that first phrase in 26 sets up. What's what's the point of this is it just to be weird or like the holy spirit showing off that. You know holy spirit knows a bunch of languages like no, it's to help us in our weaknesses and this kind of goes back to I think what Ariel was saying I think a lot of christians literally have it in their mind of you know Jesus wants nothing more than me to sin as few times as possible and be as disciplined as I can and as a. Good of a person as I can and you know it it almost just becomes sin management and all we're trying to be is these hyper moral creatures and it really misses any kind of relationship that I think Jesus is inviting us to experience when you view. Morality like that and yet a lot of it. You know if you think about the the way we describe faith all time I think it's boiled down to just like be a good person and don't do bad things and do more good things you know, but I love this idea of like in our weakness god is even interceding for us in real time and you know, ah just like. We don't know what god wants us to pray for like amen like I so resonate there are so many times and I've shared this before on the podcast but my theology is my biggest hindrance to my prayer life because I will get into the middle of a prayer and I will start theology.

35:25.58
Jeremy
Theologically second -guessing myself as to what I'm praying for and going that doesn't make any sense. That's not how God works and literally it's like I can I can just swirl around in my head and I'll start thinking of you know should I be asking God for this or that or like what what makes more sense and you know, no, that doesn't make sense with this verse And. I can just totally out of the moment I'm not even praying I'm just thinking all these theological thoughts and so I love the idea like in that moment God Just like Shhh I got you like like I I got you like I'm here. It's gonna be okay, you know and and I.

35:54.74
forestandtrees
Um.

35:56.84
forestandtrees
Sort of a self-correcting algorithm or something right? It's like spell check right? right.

36:03.20
Jeremy
But like loving spell checkck like right not like make you feel stupid spell checkck you know like sometimes I squiggly lines you're like how did I misspell that word, right? but this is like no like I'm with you like it's okay and I like this concept to me I would just say personally it's such an encouragement when. You know I'm in those moments where I'm or you know I get asked a lot to pray for someone in really complicated situations where I'm like I don't even know what I'm technically asking god to do here and you know I've been in enough pastoral situations that. Are not clear where I'm like all right Let's pray you know and sort kind of this idea of like Jesus I don't know what to say right now like I don't know the right words to bring before you but like you know our hearts you know this person here you know and and almost like invite the spirit like. Intercede with us here like we're we're coming to you. We don't even know the right way and we've talked a little bit about you know theologically can you know why does god heal some people and not other people was it because they didn't pray the right prayer was it because god didn't love them I mean these are like real time things where people get get stuck in their faith and you know I talked. I I hear these stories all the time so to me I just love this idea of the spirit is with you. It is not. You know the holy spirit's not waiting like if you get all these answers right today then I'm going to be with you. It's like no the spirit's with you and as Ariel said even when you fail even when you know yeah.

37:37.25
Jeremy
Your head. It's the pillow and you're like I need to redo because today sucked and that just did not go well and you know I'm a dad of 5 kids and there are days where I go to bed feeling like a great parent. There are days where I'm like I sucked at parenting today and this did not you know, just did not play out. Well. And that's just like how I think Jesus invites us in our faith and so I actually think it's super encouraging that's more of the pastoral answer and now throw it to a ariial for the academic this is gonna sound way better. Answer.

38:08.00
forestandtrees
All right? So one sorry time out one technical question I'm getting this alert on Zencaster ah participant participants member like Ariel is not recording right now are either of you getting a notification at all about that that have popped up well while Jeremy was talking.

38:21.15
Jeremy
I'm not.

38:30.87
Jeremy
I'm not getting any error message. Jeff.

38:33.19
forestandtrees
Okay, yeah I know the I don't know. Yeah, it's because you're I mean I still see your video and I'm still getting your sound waves ariial.

38:50.21
forestandtrees
Yeah, it said no more content is being recorded but it's yeah I don't know like the timer still going. The record thing is still Going. Um I don't know I mean yeah I'll I'll stop and just start a new session just to be safe and you know. There's a time of oh why I have the paid Version. So I I don't think I have a time limit on recording. But yeah, um, okay, but hopeful. Yeah, hopefully we got it but utter because of this error message result I'll stop and start a new recording all right.

00:00.14
Jeremy
I Know right.

00:00.64
Ariel
On the same brain track again. Ah um, no, it's okay, ah so we're talking about 26 we're talking about the holy spirit the on unotterable grounds. Yeah, ah.

00:02.29
forestandtrees
Paul yeah apologies for that. M.

00:09.97
Jeremy
The Holy Spirit the ground room.

00:19.16
Ariel
I'm going to reread your question just one more time. So I make sense of these spirits. Okay, so I think that making sense of what the holy spirit is doing in this verse is really difficult because making sense of the trinity is really difficult. Um.

00:19.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

00:37.43
Ariel
That's always been sort of ah ah, a tricky thing for me personally I always try to over reason and over analyze things and and try to create ah a construct a framework of belief that is logical, understandable communicable, um, something that I can tell other people about And. Ah, for it to make sense to them and the trinity is honestly none of those things I think that you can try to create a doctrine of the trinity and understanding of the trinity that is ah the best effort that you can put forth. But really understanding why God would need to groan to God along with you to help you pray to the God that is actually in you ah to really understand that I mean it's ah it's a real mystery so in my head.

01:23.79
Jeremy
Um.

01:25.32
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

01:28.15
Ariel
Yeah I actually can I read this bit in this verse in the David Bentley hard translation and in ah in dbh's new testament. He words verse 26 like this and likewise the spirit also gives us aid in our infirmity for we do not know what we ought to pray for.

01:29.95
forestandtrees
Yeah, please.

01:46.51
Ariel
But the spirit itself makes intercession with unutterable groans. Um, what I find so fascinating about that choice of translation is that um the use of intercession is ah is a really sort of an odd phrasing there and and the way that.

02:06.16
Ariel
The way that the spirit is praying not just with us. But for us if we can't get the words outright this the spirit will do that but almost in a way I I picture it like when a young like wolf or like a young dog is learning how to howl like the The. The big wolf howls and then the young wolf kind of just like howl and then falls backwards because it doesn't know how to like properly ah stand its body up while it's doing the howl thing. Um God knows what we ought To. Do God knows what we ought to say ah God knows the right path and we are trying to navigate that right path but we're like these you know these little babies that fall over constantly like we're ah we're kind of a mess and so. It's almost like the unutterable Groans Sure the spirit speaks with us in those but those unutterable Groans are like they're kind of our unutterable groans. They don't make sense because we can't make sense of our feelings. Um, it also like presents this really interesting idea I think of ah.

03:10.57
forestandtrees
Um.

03:19.60
Ariel
Communicating with god not being a single practice um not being a single way of praying a lot of people like put a ton of emphasis on this is the right way to pray you pray to the father. You don't pray to Jesus. Ah, if you look at the if you look at the the Lord's prayer you see this is the format that we always need to be praying in but you know over over history. We've seen people that have had the deepest connections with god are often wacky people with crazy ideas or at least. Crazy to us because they're not mainstream. They're not orthodox I don't really know where I'm going with that that particular sidetrack. But.

03:53.70
forestandtrees
Um.

04:00.90
forestandtrees
Yeah, no, That's that's an interesting answer about about the wacky people and that kind of makes sense of of my question about like why does like the spirit seem to be telling different people different things. Yeah, as as you explain it sort of makes sense to me. Ah, you know like if maybe God has a coherent. Plan and message for us but us feeble humans are are like misinterpreting it or interpreting it in our own way when the once the groanings come back. The the other direction does that set sound right by how you're you're understanding it. Yeah and but both of you kind of said the same thing about like.

04:28.49
Ariel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

04:36.70
forestandtrees
Being sort of a process of translation I Guess that's kind of the theme of this episode is you know we're talking about biblical translations before but it seems like ah I don't know like the yeah the spirit works as this automatic translator to the father because the father can't understand our.

04:53.95
Ariel
So.

04:54.33
forestandtrees
Human language for some reason or because we're so inarticulate as humans. Ah yeah, fascinating stuff and I mean that's something that I I like I said before I Love that this passage because it is so kind of mysterious and hard to kind of. Understand but I guess that's kind of like the theme of what it's about of the the mystery of it all or just the challenge of articulating your your thoughts and forming them into coherent words. Yeah I like it.

05:23.33
Jeremy
So as as I'm listening to you Jeff it reminds me of there's you know moments where my kids were learning to talk where you know one of them would be trying to figure it out and would say things that you're like what you know I'm not understanding you and then one of their siblings would say you know to me like. This is what he saying and it was like oh okay, but like I understand you like you're you're a couple years older you can understand him because like that's closer you know, but you're doing that I actually so that's kind of like the image is popping up as we're talking about it but I would say like theologically I think god can understand.

05:45.75
forestandtrees
Um.

05:57.20
forestandtrees
Yeah.

06:02.99
Jeremy
Our baby talk so to speak. So even if we can't you know or to use Ariel's wolf analogy our our partial howl right? I think god can understand it. But what I think and again where I would go I think it's more for our benefit where it's almost like again to use that analogy. So we we try to howl.

06:11.18
forestandtrees
Um.

06:21.74
Jeremy
It doesn't really come out right? and then God's there's like all right I'll help you help like I'll I'll help I'll help you do this not because God can't understand or how but because we don't know how to do it, you know and that to me is it's a more of ah it's like ah, an encouragement of. Even when you don't know the right words and and I you know I meet so many Christians too who they're they're just petrified like someone's going to ask them a question about their faith or the bible that they don't have a good answer for and you know this this verse will be a huge encouragement. They're like well you have the holy spirit like relax like the Holy Spirit's going to help you.

06:48.68
forestandtrees
Um.

06:54.24
Jeremy
Navigate that when you know you don't have to have a biblical degree to be able to talk about what Jesus is doing in your life and I don't I just think it's it's cool, but it you know as you're talking about like does get into the trinity does get into who's understanding who who's not understanding who right? like what.

07:07.30
Ariel
Yeah, and why? yeah.

07:09.41
forestandtrees
Yeah.

07:11.40
Jeremy
What what's the purpose of this translation which is yeah this which just of a fun aside. You know the all the people and I hear this multiple times a week you know the bible is so clear is just like study it and it's not like friends. It's just not.

07:22.44
Ariel
Yeah.

07:26.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, and which translation.

07:31.23
Ariel
Um, yeah, it's not no.

07:31.40
Jeremy
I Don't say that to mock it. It's It's just not you get into this and you start nuencing it. You're like Wow is this complicated stuff. So that's super good.

07:39.84
forestandtrees
It's almost like you could ask 3 different people their interpretation of 1 particular passage and get 3 different answers. Ah, and ah so another thing it it made when you're talking about the translation issue. It made me think a little bit about the concept of praying to the saints or like the saints interceding for us between god which is like a.

07:44.12
Jeremy
Weird.

07:50.64
Ariel
Um.

07:53.41
Ariel
Yeah, yeah.

07:55.82
Jeremy
Um, um.

07:57.66
forestandtrees
Ah, catholic thing that protestants like to like ding catholics for and catholics will say like it's just like asking your friend to pray for you but your friend is you know this apostle who died two hundred years ago or more. Ah, yeah, yeah, what hey Mary is one of my best friends. Okay, um.

08:06.25
Ariel
Yeah, yeah.

08:07.26
Jeremy
Your friend is the virgin Mary yeah, that's cool that's cool I'm not knocking that.

08:16.68
forestandtrees
And then another within another random thought is like it could this passage be kind of a reference to speaking in tongues or do you think that's a completely separate thing.

08:26.16
Ariel
I Think that it it could in the way that it it expresses like the possibility that communicating with God doesn't have to be an organized and and totally coherent communication like it doesn't have to be sentences with. You know, clauses and subjects and and it doesn't it doesn't need to go that way like I have friends who have said to me that they pray essentially prayy in tongues on their own I've never actually done that I've never actually tried of it been like the wailing like the God please help me sort of wailing.

08:48.50
forestandtrees
Um.

09:02.53
forestandtrees
Um.

09:04.77
Ariel
I've never really I've never really gone that direction but the reality is that like people have been expressing faith and communication with God in in languages we don't understand for centuries right.

09:17.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, dear friends who pray in tongues Do they have some kind of translator or do they like praying tongues and not know what they're saying ah okay.

09:22.47
Ariel
Well this is like solo so solo praying in text like yeah, not like ah not in the context of ah of a worship environment which I find also really interesting and that's a conversation for another episode in another line but but oh yeah, yeah, but can I just say.

09:32.84
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I know I know that's a big controversial thing so we can just we can just leave that there if you want sure.

09:37.60
Jeremy
Yes.

09:41.30
Ariel
Can I just say like just 1 more note on this verse I find it I find it really really interesting that this proceeds like the the it it comes right before the golden chain. Um, ah this this series of verses that calvinists have used to explain predestination. And the select saving of a very small and a very few you know small number and very few people over the course of history. Um, we get this verse about humans universally essentially.

10:06.54
forestandtrees
Um.

10:13.50
Ariel
Or anyone who reaches out to God being helped by the holy spirit if they have faith being helped by the Holy Spirit What business would God have helping all of these people with the holy spirit to communicate if most of us are doomed to hell Anyway, what what? that's.

10:30.60
forestandtrees
Ah.

10:31.90
Ariel
Yeah I just I found that to be like a super interesting placement for this especially in ah in a in a chapter that gets misused I think so often.

10:40.21
forestandtrees
Yeah, even the the reference to all of creation is growing like it makes me think of like it's not just all of humanity. But it's like the natural world to like wild animals and forests and trees and you know, ah everything. But you know I don't know that's.

10:53.94
Ariel
Um, yeah, the wolves. Um.

10:58.80
forestandtrees
Isn't it interesting idea. Yeah, the wolves exactly.

10:58.57
Jeremy
Well and especially you know creation in its weakness right? which I think you when you when you bring the eternal you know the concept of hell or heaven. You know into this It's like okay, well yeah, they they were too weak. They didn't choose the right thing. Well if god is meeting them the weakness and interceding for them then. Who is who is weak at the end of the day like if you've got god intereding for you in your in your moment of weakness. You're gonna be all right and it is an interesting setup for chapter 8 because chapter 9 is gonna be a doozy and as Ariel well just we'll we'll tease this out.

11:18.76
forestandtrees
Um.

11:30.99
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

11:31.82
Ariel
Um.

11:37.30
Jeremy
Cause I'm excited for chapter 9 as well because chapter 9 I've already had people ask me about chapter 9 because as Ariel's mentioning that's the doozy that's the calvinist people are like you know I'm I'm not a calvinist if you haven't placed that on our podcast yet. Ah. And people are like well what about chapter 9 and so we're going to have a guest next week as well. One of my mentors who has helped me work through this is going to join us and that's going to be an exciting discussion. But we're just going to tease that right now because we still got we got some gems in chapter 8 so I want to go to a really popular verse that a lot of people may be familiar with gets quoted a lot perhaps quoted out of context a lot. So we're gonna we're gonna let you guys set the record straight on this but verse 28 is a beautiful, beautiful statement Paul says and we know that god causes everything to work together for the good of those who love god and are called according to his purpose for them now this you know Jeff's sharing his love for verse 26 I would say verse 28 has long been one of my favorite verses. Ah, but what I would acknowledge is how you make sense of this verse completely depends on your theology and you could you know have 5 different people with 5 different theological understandings of god and would probably take this verse in dramatically dramatically different.

13:03.91
Jeremy
Directions to the point where you think they're not even they're not even citing the same verse. So I'm going to ask a skeptic and a theologian here. Ah, what's let's go. What's what's this verse mean to you guys I Want to hear.

13:20.55
forestandtrees
Do you want to go first aerial or or should we? Okay, ah, so yeah I mean I I mean I like this verse like it's a great sentiment I can see why like people cling to this verse like it. It kind of reminds me of ah several of uss ago we were talking about like. The need for hope even in hopeless times like it's a very important thing I think for people to have this understanding of the world that everything's going to work out in the end and I mean it's a very intuitive belief. You know I mean to to be the cynic here I'd say like it's kind of demonstrably not true. Because we see we don't see this play out in everyone's life. You know some people like live very good comfortable lives and some people like sacrifice everything like christians like those who love god and or called the core to his purpose like they they do everything. They're told and like sacrifice things for god and still suffer and die or are tortured and persecuted or whatever. So I'd say like the only way you could make this verse make sense to my mind is if you say like heaven counts like if if you say like it all works out in the end because. You get to go to heaven at the end in the afterlife because yeah in in this life. It's it doesn't seem to be true to me. Yeah, yeah, but something tells me Ariel is going to have a more positive spin on this verse.

14:38.93
Jeremy
Just not buying. It are.

14:43.27
Ariel
Ah, but I absolutely absolutely I do ah okay so there's enough. There's a number of ways where how we could understand like all things working together for good and and I think honestly Jeff you're absolutely right. Just being like well because we go to heaven. It isn't that great. That's a cop out. It's it's not ah, it's not a satisfactory answer to what? ah Paul is saying here what I do think is a more satisfactory answer is that like things on this earth will be made right one way or another.

15:06.17
forestandtrees
Um.

15:20.55
Ariel
Ah, not in in the in in the world Beyond in some other worldly realm but eventually ah things that have gone bad will be made good. Um and things that are dead will be made alive again and and I know that this like you know. Me if I start to sound too too out there but to me it feels like understanding that. Okay, ah this particular verse can be used in a number of ways we can understand it to say Ah, all things are going to work out good for us Christians and isn't that great. It's so cool that we're christians Because. That's the only way that things are going to work out great for us. Um, the other way that you can understand it is that like we are ah called according to his purpose as human beings and in that way. Things will work out right for human beings because we are uniquely called as humans towards the purpose of God we were created with a unique purpose. A unique, a unique physiology, a unique intellect. Something that other animals don't really have in the same way that humans do and in that way, we're all called according to his purpose and in that same way we are all ah going to see things made right or made good again.

16:43.81
Ariel
There's a great quote from Julian of Norwich. All Shep. All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well. Ah, this is somebody who we were talking about really kind of out there people and unusual folks that had some strange things to say Julian Norwich was one of them and. But she had a unique connection with the creator. She had a unique connection with Jesus ah, unique in a lot of ways I'll let you get into that yourself if you want to go read what she wrote but um, but yeah I think that like ultimately what this verse is expressing in my opinion you know and based on. The different translations that I've read and I can read I'll read the voice I brought up the voice earlier didn't I I'm going to bring up the voice in the voice it says we are confident that god is able to orchestrate everything to work towards something good and beautiful when we love him.

17:25.83
forestandtrees
Yeah, sure.

17:39.32
Ariel
When we love him and accept his invitation to live according to his plan. There's not really a set timeline there though is there.

17:49.75
forestandtrees
Right? Yeah, So as you were talking that that makes me think um, ah maybe a way you could explain it is like it all all work out over a long enough period of time right? like maybe the individual human life. Doesn't matter or like an individual person might just live a life of suffering even though they're they're serving God their whole life. But in the end, all things will be made right? And that's that's how you interpret this first like the human history at large or or all all of creation history at large is. Is that correct.

18:24.67
Ariel
Yeah that's kind of how I interpret it is that um that even if individual injustices happen to us as people that um, those individual injustices that prejudice that um, that evil that we experience. Is not going to succeed in the long run and and you see that play out that the the general motion of human existence has been towards progress of acceptance towards progress of love ah towards progress of unity. We started as a species in a very tribal way. In a very separated way and as as humanity has grown and as humanity has sort of intermingled. We've become a sort of 1 group which represents sort of an acceptance among all of us right. So in that same way I think that like the general trajectory trajectory of the world is towards love and towards peace rather than towards ah you know evil and towards violence.

19:28.00
Jeremy
Ah ha.

19:30.69
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean that's that's a beautiful picture I like that of course reminds me of the Martin Luther King quote about the moral arc of the universe is long but it bends towards justice. Ah, where do you think Jeremy is this your understanding of this verse or.

19:46.77
forestandtrees
How do you make sense of it.

19:47.45
Jeremy
That's not the way I would interpret it I think there's room for that view. Absolutely and I would agree with that Steven Pinker writes on that and the book the better angels of our nature that basically we have been as a collective society moving towards something better than it was and.

19:57.17
forestandtrees
Um.

20:02.76
Jeremy
You know I'm a history nerd and I love reading history and yeah I wouldn't want to have lived at any other point in history because it was brutal and things that we take for granted today you go holy cow I remember sitting in a seminary class. In fact, reading ah or learning about heretics in in church history and realizing oh the church would have killed me. Like just having like a very vivid like realization of I agree with that person that they burned like I would have been there like and it would have not been the heathens killing me would have been the church killing me thinking they were you know doing a you know favor for god I think at a base level the way I interpret this is like.

20:22.10
Ariel
Um.

20:25.29
forestandtrees
M.

20:39.52
Jeremy
Even the worst thing that can happen to you god can still redeem it at like it's a base level. So not a yourretheral like not necessarily a timeline but like there is no wasted pain or wasted suffering when put in the hands of god like god will redeem all of it now. It might not be in this lifetime and it might not be in ways that we can even make sense of but just this reality of the the worst that evil can do does not get you outside of how god can ultimately bring restoration and redemption and I think I think a lot of it will be in heaven because I don't know how else to reconcile to Jeff to your point. This doesn't play out on earth right? And you'd have to acknowledge that at a minimum There's a lot of people that live really brutal existences and suffer a lot and doesn't seem like there's you know any light at the end of that tunnel for them.

21:17.57
forestandtrees
Um.

21:32.50
Jeremy
But what we don't know this is you know cslewis's idea of heaven working backward we don't know what does that look like for all eternity when god begins to redeem all things like and you know his his whole idea is like even the worst pain that you experience on on earth as god works that backwards and in heaven and eternity. That becomes a pleasure to you and that's this beautiful redemption of god and so I think that's more of like the way I take it is even when you experience pain and suffering. It's never beyond the scope of how god can use it to redeem or shape you or bring beauty out of it which is. Is huge because we as humans do not have this ability right? like you can destroy something and we can say like oh that what a waste we we'll never get that back and there are plenty of things like that and you know think about Jeff I know you love you know you're in tune with creation. But like there you know.

22:19.60
forestandtrees
Um.

22:26.49
Jeremy
There are things that we're doing to our planet and that's the fear right? like we'll never undo some of the things that we're doing and yet god can ah god has a supernatural ability that we don't and so we acknowledge our limitationion but then this verse I think Paul's advice to say there's no evil. There's no suffering. There's no you know harm that can.

22:32.12
forestandtrees
Um.

22:46.26
Jeremy
Tend to befall you that would put you beyond what God could ultimately do to redeem it which again I just think is hugely encouraging.

22:55.14
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I mean like ah Verse eighteen says that what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory. He will reveal to us later. So I think that's that's kind of where I got that idea to with my answer of like it. It must be counting on the afterlife here. Um.

23:01.71
Jeremy
Are.

23:02.10
Ariel
1

23:12.55
forestandtrees
Yeah, so I appreciate you you saying that Jeremy as well that it yeah it it does seem just disingenuous to people like um to say that everything works together for good and like the the more kind of cliche. Ah. Maybe even dare I say like hobby lobby board version of this verse of this is probably the most hobby lobby verse in all of romans right.

23:33.43
Ariel
I think.

23:35.70
Jeremy
You haven't you have not quoted Hobby lobby in a while I'll I'll give that to you. You know what though too I think we also have to Acknowledge. We don't know we don't know this supernatural way in which God meets people in pain and suffering. And so we can look at someone else's story and we can conclude that would be that would be the worst thing that could ever happen and you know from from what we can see that may be True. We Also don't know what is God doing in that person and you know there's just remarkable people throughout history that have defied.

23:53.35
forestandtrees
Um.

24:09.44
Jeremy
Odds like that and I you know my daughter is working on a project right now they have ah they it to be ah a wax museum and so each of the students has to pick a character then they stand still then you hit a button and they come to life and they you know start quoting things from their characters. So she and I were researching this last night and she's like how do you know Who's who's a good woman that I could be that really made it impact and we're talking about different people. Ultimately, we start talking about mother Teresa and she'd never heard about mother Teresa which I was like how how do you not know mother Teresa. So we start talking about mother Teresa all this and.

24:38.13
forestandtrees
No.

24:42.34
Jeremy
She ended up you had to put like your first choice second choice. Third choice so she puts mother Teresa first and then today I said you know hey do you think you're gonna get that and she's like that I'm for sure gonna get mother Teresa and I was like how are you so confident. She's like no one else knows who that is dad and I'm like okay. This is not the obscure person that you are claiming and you know I was explaining to her like mother triessa what she's known for is this remarkable love in the face of suffering in the face of poverty in the face of ugliness and yet just looked like Jesus to people and so sacrficially. And you know and even as my daughters are yeah trying to understand it. She's like so did she have a lot of money. It's like no like she she like literally I think and I said you know one of the stories I remember about her is like her feet were deformed because she would give everybody else her shoes and like like we look at that we go. That's horrible, but like. I don't know what her relationship with god was like I don't know you know what? what kind of sense of fulfillment did she feel how how did the holy spirit seem to her like I don't know you know I mean so I just think we have to acknowledge our own limitations of even when things don't look the way we would want them to like we don't know. How these people are experiencing it and if if god is as good as I think god is that's what I ultimately put my trust in and say yeah I have confidence that god really looks like Jesus and god really is good and I think however god plays this out.

26:14.50
Jeremy
It's going to be beautiful.

26:17.60
forestandtrees
Yeah, have you heard that that quote from mother Teresa from like later in life where she talked about just feeling inner emptiness like not feeling the presence of god and just feeling this this emptiness in her soul. Ah I think about that all the time with a you know question. We talked about few episodes ago of like.

26:27.56
Jeremy
Yeah.

26:34.45
forestandtrees
Aren't you supposed to feel something I feel like people talk about this a lot of like feeling fulfilled or feeling like the Holy Spirit Lifts Lifts your spirits or something like that. Yeah.

26:44.70
Jeremy
But I always took that as more of like she didn't she didn't have to go back to your reference. She didn't have a Hobby lobby experience of faith. You know I mean it wasn't It wasn't like hang this on the wall. This is beautiful but I would say for her to do what she did and to spend her entire life doing it. She had to have some.

26:58.68
Ariel
Um.

27:03.46
Jeremy
Deep sense of fulfillment and purpose and meaning you know and I I just create room for that I don't I don't know what it is right? So I'm not speaking on behalf of her I don't know I just look at people like that and I suspect there was something driving her that was that was incredible and.

27:12.98
forestandtrees
Um.

27:21.60
Jeremy
You know I don't know.

27:22.87
forestandtrees
Yeah, also I just I should acknowledge like she's also become a very ah controversial figure more recently with um, a lot of people have have spoken out about how like who don't agree with her ministry ah techniques I suppose or just the way that like she was. Proselytizing or or like denying people like warm water something I I didn't come prepared to talk about this but it's just wanted to acknowledge that not not everyone agrees that mother Teresa is is a saint the way that um, some people portray her to be just yeah yeah.

27:51.30
Jeremy
Jeff Not everyone agrees on anything so we can. We can just acknowledge that move on.

27:53.62
Ariel
Yeah I think I think we can all agree that verse 28 is not something you you should quote to somebody who just had like a relative die or someone close to them that you know like ah they suffered a massive loss or they just got diagnosed with cancer. Don't tell them.

28:10.38
forestandtrees
M.

28:12.17
Ariel
That everything is going to work out for the good. Not only is it not what Paul was talking about here. But it's not helpful in the slightest so take down the hobby lobby board.

28:19.15
Jeremy
Well absolutely, but it does get used and it does get brought up in the situations and it wounds people and they you know I I was just quoting scripture I'll try to encourage them and it's like oh.

28:26.48
Ariel
Ah, all the time. Yeah.

28:26.50
forestandtrees
Um.

28:34.16
Ariel
It's tone deaf.

28:34.48
Jeremy
O Good Lord please save us from ourselves.

28:39.62
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, it does it does get get thrown around there quite a bit so but it's cool. It's cool that all 3 of us have unique interpretations on it. Ah, that's great. Love to see it all right? Let's let's get to our our final verse here. Ah verse. 38 another another very popular and very positive um uplifting verse here I'm convinced that nothing can separate us from god's love and neither death nor life neither angels nor demons neither fears for today nor worries about tomorrow. Not even the powers of hell can separate us from god's love. So I remember this verse. Ah Jeremy quoted many episodes ago when we were talking about heaven and hell and universalism. Um it. It seems to me like now that I understand more of the arguments for universalism we you arily mentioned David Bentley heart earlier Jeremy and I have both read. Um. That all shall be saved where where he makes a very strong argument for universalism and again even though like I don't I don't believe any of this stuff I still I like the idea of universalism I think like if if god is real I want to believe that it's he's the universalist god and and not the god who allows you know a huge ah. Portion of a population to suffer in hell for eternity. Um, but I wanted to ask you Ariel what? what your personal view is on this. What What's your interpretation of this verse especially in light of some of the other verses in this chapter that do seem to be a little bit more of the traditional like some people are in some people are out. Some people are.

29:54.54
Ariel
Right? there.

30:11.14
forestandtrees
Ah, lacked dare I say and said people are not so like verse 9 says remember all those who do not have the spear of Christ living in them. Do not belong to him and in verse 29 forgot knew people in advance and he chose them to become like his son a bit of a teas for. Calvinism that's coming in the next chapter. So you know what do you think? do you see the love and future gloryria is extending to all of god's creation as verse 38 seems to suggest or do you think it's it's only for a select few only those who are in Christ.

30:30.85
Ariel
Um, ah.

30:44.43
Ariel
Ah, so I'm not I'm not like us a professed universalist like I don't I don't I don't think that um that your actions don't matter I don't think that what you believe doesn't matter I don't think that um that everyone is just. Groovy and okay at all times no matter what um what I do believe is that in time that eventually all will be reconciled to god so ah, whether that means like through some sort of purgatorial process or or whatever that may be that eventually. All will be made right with god otherwise all of this was for nothing. Um, when I said this in an episode that I was doing about romans eight with a friend of mine and I said in John 3 16 John 3 16 17 it doesn't say god so loved some people that he gave his only. Ah, you know one and and ah only begotten son to die it was the world everything in creation the creation that god made in genesis. The whole world was made by god god didn't make some of this and then let everything else kind of fill in. We are all part of the creation that god has made um that doesn't mean that we're all good all the time. Sometimes you don't get along with your relatives and so it can take time I think um for some folks to come around to this idea I thought that your your new living the new living translation.

32:16.64
Ariel
Ah, it kind of screwed up 29 if I can be honest I don't think verse twenty nine is really the best. Ah.

32:18.56
forestandtrees
It's.

32:24.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's It's okay, you can ah you can insult the nlt. What's what's.

32:28.95
Ariel
Ah, ah so that and no I'm just you know you chose this one is zero. So ah for god news people in advance. He chose them to become like his son again implies I think um, following the chain of Paul's ah a Paul's writing debt.

32:30.98
Jeremy
Ah, we actually didn't write the nlt. We just use it.

32:36.75
forestandtrees
Um.

32:48.82
Ariel
Implies that behavior is everything that following this exact ah method of living is the only way to be you know in Christ or to follow god and you know like I said I I think that everyone should know Jesus? Um I I think that it would be wonderful if everyone felt the way that I feel. About Christ but I know that that's not going to be how it is and and you have to understand that like you have to find some way to reconcile I think the fact that these people exist that they are god's creation too. And they will never really come around to the way that you think is the right way of thinking. Um, so when Paul says in verse twenty nine that ah those he for knew he predestined that the Esv says those whom he fore knew he predestined to be conformed. To the image of his son. Ah those he for new I think says um, humanity. Ah, he predestined to be conformed to the image of his son the image the visage the word in the greek there implies like not um.

33:43.36
forestandtrees
Um.

34:00.60
Ariel
Not that those he fornew would act like his son but that they would look like his son and in that way like when Jesus came he looked like all of us right? He looked like a human being and that's because he was. And in that way we were all predestined to look like Jesus if predestination if prenest if predestination is your bag. Otherwise you can kind of understand it to be that like Jesus Jesus ' motion Jesus is general. Ah.

34:19.82
forestandtrees
Moving.

34:35.17
Ariel
Sort of trajectory in this world was towards love and forgiveness and the more that we know god the more that we go toward that image of love and forgiveness. And yeah I don't know the closer that we get to god the more likely we are to act like Jesus. So I mean there's a couple ways to understand it. But my my best guess right now and that's really all it is is that I think it speaks to humanity's unique, calling in this world and our unique connection to the divine creator and not necessarily.

35:01.30
forestandtrees
Um.

35:12.51
Ariel
Like um god said you know Jim and Bob and Ricky and and Jeremy and Jeff and you guys are all right? but like the rest of you guys are out of here.

35:23.42
forestandtrees
I would not probably not me. But yeah, ah that man you're blown my mind right now I I don't think this thought has ever even occurred to me but like could it be true that Universalism is true and calvinism is true like. Because all of humanity is the elect I feel like that That's kind of white what you're saying right.

35:45.92
Jeremy
Um, except they no calvinist. No calvinist would accept that. That's that's the problem. So a calvinist is gonna go how dare you know, but it does kind of point out.

35:46.79
Ariel
Ah, it's the stretch. No no.

35:47.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, calvinists ever Yeah, calvinists are going to love this interpretation. Every everyone is right? Everyone gets a participation trophy.

36:02.64
Jeremy
Have you ever met a calvinist who wasn't chosen I mean I just find it interesting.

36:06.66
forestandtrees
Right? Yeah, okay, that's that's something I I thought of that that specific question is are there people who believe Calvinism is true and bad luck for me I'm not part of the elect. Um.

36:08.13
Ariel
Ah, yeah.

36:21.57
forestandtrees
And then I saw a Tiktok created by Abraham Piper or either of you guys familiar with. He's yeah John Piper's son he's he's really famous on Tiktok. He actually made a a video about this that he went through a phase where that's what he believed about himself was because he he was obviously raised in a calvinist home.

36:26.50
Jeremy
Um, love he's great.

36:26.84
Ariel
Um, yeah.

36:37.74
Jeremy
Yeah, he had to work through some baggage with his dad.

36:39.58
forestandtrees
Ah, which shouldn't be a surprise. Yeah so you he has He has a lot of bag and great. Great content I'm a big fan of his content by the way. But um and that was something that he specifically like struggled with that belief of like I believe Calvinism is true but because of like my doubts about God like I just I must not be part of the elect. So I must be just.

36:40.20
Ariel
Yeah.

36:58.77
forestandtrees
Destined for hell and I mean talk about just a ah bleak outlook on life but I can see because of his circumstance how he would get there.

37:08.10
Jeremy
I Know a guy who is calvinist and worries about the salvation of his wife I mean true like and I ah really and he's like yeah I'm not sure she's elect which.

37:16.11
forestandtrees
Um, Riot rent.

37:25.49
Jeremy
But I mean just boggles the mind to me.

37:28.21
forestandtrees
Because is why his wife like I assume is a Christian but is not a calvinist right? or or not.

37:33.50
Jeremy
Well I don't she's a christian she's a Christian but she is clearly lacking in something you know of evidence of faith that that would cause him to believe that to me is where you know that's where I think that you. Yeah, and on paper you can mix calvinism and universalism and sure let's put them. Let's let's have god elect everybody but that fundamentally you know becomes universalism not calvinism and you lose calvinism in that as as it is understood by every calvinist I've ever met in my life.

38:02.90
Ariel
Death.

38:06.89
forestandtrees
Well I depend do calvinists Love the part about people going to hell or do they love the the heaven part right? like.

38:13.20
Jeremy
Double predestination if God has predestined those for heaven then God has predestined those for hell that's that's one of the it's one of the underneath the hood things you get to.

38:20.53
forestandtrees
Yeah. Yeah, this is this is where I worry about like all of us being in agreement here like it's it's easy for us to just talk down to the calvinists and say how stupid their their beliefs are. But yeah, it's.

38:39.92
Ariel
Um, we're just we're just not part of the elect maybe out of know.

38:41.70
Jeremy
I don't think it's stupid I just don't think it looks like Jesus is is where I land and here's what I'd say though I have calvinist friends that I don't judge them I don't worry about their salvation I don't think they're less christians I just think they have a different understanding of this than I do but to be fair.

38:43.63
forestandtrees
That's true. Um.

38:55.14
forestandtrees
Um.

39:00.17
Jeremy
We are going to tackle romans nine next week which is you know by many the calvinist chapter of the bible. So I mean yeah, we we can say we all agree but we're going to go into the murky waters of romans nine that you know I got literally got a text about the other day someone was like how how do you read? Romans 9

39:08.23
forestandtrees
Um, totally.

39:19.32
Jeremy
I'm like well we're gonna get to that very soon on a podcast near you. Oh here we go see Ariel this is what I deal with we can have a great episode and then he he starts pulling this stuff.

39:20.36
forestandtrees
Yeah, we're going to? Yeah, we're going to do some mental gymnastics and explain it away right.

39:30.30
Ariel
Ah.

39:36.55
forestandtrees
I mean I you know I don't know I don't have a ah dog in this fight you know I I don't have a tulip in this field have we? Yeah thanks Um I don't sorry we we might have gotten off track here from the did anyone else. Want to say anything else about.

39:41.45
Jeremy
Okay, they're nice. Nice.

39:52.50
Ariel
Yeah I think think that um just to reiterate like what I was saying about um, universal reconciliation or or someone being conformed to look like Jesus I like the word elect bothers me a lot and I think that it might be.

39:53.86
forestandtrees
First 38 while we're here.

40:12.15
Ariel
Ah, impulse of the flesh for us to try to divide ourselves off from other people. It might be something that's more sinful than we know to try to um, create a hierarchy of humanity that says I'm right, you're wrong or I'm I'm good. You're bad. Especially in the in light of of how we are not called to be the ones that judge people if god decides to make those decisions a hundred percent absolutely like go for it. Dude like that's your choice but um, like I think that we should operate in the in the world with the understanding. That we are all made in the image of god and in that way we need to love each other as though we are all made in the image of god that this person's my brother that person's my sister that person is my non binary sibling and I don't know where they're going to wind up for eternity I i. Fairly certain. It's not going to be a hell of eternal conscious torment I'm like 99.9 Percent sure that that's not going to happen. But aside aside from that I think that like you had a question I don't know. Did you have a question.

41:13.30
forestandtrees
M.

41:23.52
Ariel
Maybe on this on on our little note sheet that had ah an issue of like ah not believing in the afterlife and maybe that being okay. Okay.

41:32.68
forestandtrees
Oh yeah I did initially and we we cut it for time just because um, we had too many questions. But if if you had if you want to say anything about that what it was regarding verse 18 about um our present suffering and future glory. So.

41:41.66
Ariel
Who? Okay, yeah, and I don't I don't want to like start ah a whole new conversation but it made me think like from a practical standpoint of.

41:49.53
forestandtrees
Yeah.

41:56.19
Ariel
Of how we operate in this world which is all that we know and it's all that we can be 100 % certain of from that practical standpoint I think that how you love other people how you treat other people is your reflection of god into this world. It's how you shine your light the light of Jesus like into this world. And so in that way like if you're not operating out of a place of understanding and kindness and not saying you're doomed to hell you know god hates this particular group of people that I don't agree with um if you're if you're instead deciding to um, base your. Existence from a position of love then you're in dude, you're elect you did it. You're in the club.

42:37.56
forestandtrees
Um, yeah i. yeah yeah I mean I love that I mean that's that's something that I'm really interested in is just the idea of um I think that there are christians who or that can be like a fault of christianity as I see it that um. People tend to put too much emphasis on the afterlife or if their belief in the afterlife might might make them come to the conclusion that what happens in this life doesn't matter. Um I'll just say that's something I appreciate about you Ariel and you Jeremy that I but I see both of you guys as christians who understand the importance of. Loving 1 another and making this world and this life a better place and not just ah, you know, not just putting all of your chips in the afterlife basket. So yeah and I appreciate that perspective from both of you.

43:28.71
Jeremy
Okay I just as I the aerial talk I this idea that I've not thought about before and I think this would make a killer shirt so we haven't talked about Jeff saw about merch every time I see Jeff he he's sending me stickers or buttons or something on the about the podcast is worth He's wearing a pin right now I I rest my case but Jeff this could be a cool shirt design. What if it was like love everyone like they're the elect or something but like that idea of like what if you just assume you can you can still think god's gonna damn half the population. Fine.

43:58.50
forestandtrees
Um, ah.

44:05.30
Jeremy
But what if you loved everyone as if they were elect and then you just kind of determine I'll let God sort it out the end that would bring all sides together right? because I'm going to I'm going to get there theologically differently and that would be a way. Maybe a calvinist could say yeah.

44:12.84
forestandtrees
Um, right.

44:23.10
Jeremy
You're not going to be there but I can love you like it and almost just like humor you until you die right? But if we could even just agree on that then the world be better. We'd all love everyone like love everyone like their elect. Let's do it. Let's make let's make our new shirts.

44:38.22
forestandtrees
Yeah I love that probably on ah on a tulip of course. No yeah I love that I mean to be fair to to our calvinist brethren like I'm I'm thinking most calvinists would agree with that sentiment as well right? because they.

44:41.52
Jeremy
Ah, it has to be a Tulip. Yeah.

44:52.17
forestandtrees
I think most colorists would say like we don't know who's Lectin who's not and that's why we still need to evangelize because you know we we don't know the heart of god and he's going to make the final call in the end.

44:56.40
Jeremy
Sure.

45:02.97
Jeremy
Yeah I think they would I again I'm thinking of like my calvinist friends I think we' be like yeah absolutely I'm gonna love everyone like that. But I do think it's just as I was listening to Ariel like explain it's like yeah you can still think that logically god is going to have the elect and the non-elect but we can. You know we can just decide as humans look Let's just love everybody and you know let god figure it out. Whatever whatever way your theology works in that regards.

45:27.40
forestandtrees
Yeah man this this episode is an epic act of Diplomacy I feel like we're creating peace between all denominations right? now there is going to be no, there will be no more no more theological debate. No more disagreement after this.

45:38.41
Jeremy
Um, we have solved so many issues today.

45:46.44
forestandtrees
I think we did it I do do either of you guys have anything else you wanted to say about chapter 8 or or any other do you have any closing words for us Ariel I think you want to say it.

45:47.15
Jeremy
It's beautiful.

45:58.51
Ariel
I think I think I'm ta I'm I'm sorry if I talk too much during this episode but this is again something up just the chapter I feel so passionate. But so I really I really enjoyed this conversation. This was this was a lot of fun. Thanks for. Ah.

46:15.56
forestandtrees
Oh no, you all all good things. Yeah, thank you so much for for coming on and everything you shared. Yeah I mean I'll acknowledge like this is a big chapter like there was a lot of kind of like iconic verses. We didn't get to So yeah, yeah.

46:15.88
Ariel
Humoring my rants.

46:26.83
Ariel
Yeah, yeah, there there is more we could go five more hours but we're not going to do that. So.

46:32.63
forestandtrees
Yeah, check I mean check out another plug check out transorgen stupidopy presents the bibles for a deeper dive on romans eight if you're interested. Ah Jeremy any other closing words for us.

46:43.26
Jeremy
I just want to say? Thank you to Ariel as well. I love I just love the spirit of this conversation. You know coming together around these verses that we all find value in that we all see differently and even when Jeff you know. I love it with Jeff like it's like in right in line with us like well of course I don't believe any of this but you know just like that reminder of like oh yeah, yeah, the the premise of this show like we we actually don't agree on this but I just think it's it's so beautiful like these these ideas are incredible. They're nuanced. They're complicated and you know we'll spend.

47:01.28
forestandtrees
Poo-poohs.

47:20.18
Jeremy
You know all of our life exploring these and I just find so much value in this conversation I appreciate your voice Ariel your perspective. You think you've added a ton to this episode and so I'm just incredibly grateful for your time and Jeff as always, you're entertaining. You're great. This is fun.

47:37.13
forestandtrees
Yeah, Ariel you're great Jeremy you are also here yep, great are at.

47:45.47
Ariel
Ah.

47:46.71
Jeremy
Ah, hurt people hurt people.

47:50.62
Ariel
Um.

47:51.51
forestandtrees
Well, ah, yeah, we could spend the rest of our lives talking about it but we'll wrap it up here. Ah 1 more 1 more time. Thank you to Ariel ah more plug trans we got snoopby presents the bible. We'll put the link in the show notes. Of course check out that podcast. It's it's awesome, really entertaining and ah. Yeah, hopeful I mean hopefully you'll come back sometime that would be awesome. We'll love to have you again and everyone else take care and we'll be. We'll be ah in romans 9 jars of Clay next week

48:09.92
Ariel
I Would love to yeah.