We look at divorce and remarriage, revisiting why we crave things that aren't good for us, we're going to try to make sense about when Christians sin, and we'll find out if Jef got rid of his sinful nature when he stopped being a Christian.
Topics
Divorce and Remarriage
Personal Cravings
Can we blame the demons for our bad behavior?
How does a non-believer understand sin?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
We look at divorce and remarriage, revisiting why we crave things that aren't good for us, we're going to try to make sense about when Christians sin, and we'll find out if Jef got rid of his sinful nature when he stopped being a Christian.
Topics
Divorce and Remarriage
Personal Cravings
Can we blame the demons for our bad behavior?
How does a non-believer understand sin?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
00:01.00
Jeremy
Hey everybody we're on my favorite number chapter 7 of the book of romans you are listening to the force in the trees I'm Jeremy and joined today by Jeff.
00:11.80
forestandtrees
I Can't believe I have to know you forever.
00:19.50
Jeremy
Oof I don't I don't get this one I've never even heard of this.
00:20.87
forestandtrees
Have you seen marriage story you heard its ah it was on a Netflix movie came out a couple of years ago with um Scarlett Johansson and Adam driver where there.
00:33.54
Jeremy
You're going way more like obscure with your references now I mean we started mainstream now I feel like I don't know how many people are are tracking with these references come on.
00:41.77
forestandtrees
This this is a mainstream movie Jeremy I mean adam'm driver scar joe are big stars right at I'm drivers ky oren so there's the star wars connection right? there it was not made for best picture. You know it's a big and a it's it's a movie about 2 people getting divorced so you know.
00:47.24
Jeremy
Yeah I'll give you that. Okay, oh that is how you're gonna connect this come on.
01:01.60
forestandtrees
I thought that was the tie in for for our episode today.
01:07.58
Jeremy
Ah, wow on that optimistic note welcome everyone to romans chapter 7 today we are as Jeff has so illustriously and ominously forecasted for us. We're gonna look at divorce and remarriage.
01:09.70
forestandtrees
Welcome.
01:24.38
Jeremy
We are going to revisit why we crave things that aren't good for us. We're gonna try to make sense about when Christian sin and we're gonna find out if Jeff got rid of his sinful nature when he stopped being a christian I can't wait to find out.
01:40.18
forestandtrees
Yeah, mean me either.
01:44.50
Jeremy
Jeff for for get into this um you and I saw each other this weekend in person and you know our listeners may not realize if either just listening that we don't actually film these in the same room or record these I guess in the same room and so you and I don't get the chance.
01:47.71
forestandtrees
We did.
02:02.83
Jeremy
To hang a lot and I thought about this because I was working a wine festival on Saturday that's right by where you live and you you keep bringing up this 90% thing and you did a poll so I don't know if you want to talk about your poll. Okay, you want.
02:09.81
forestandtrees
M.
02:19.90
forestandtrees
Oh yeah I can share the results. Yeah, do ah you want me to say that now. So yeah because last week we talked about someone sending an email saying you guys seem to be about 90% the same and yeah, so so we got a picture together this weekend I shared it on our Instagram did a.
02:22.64
Jeremy
Throw that in here.
02:36.84
forestandtrees
A poll with a little slider thing. You know so people can do a a very particular percentage point of how similar are we so here's the result of you can see that I'd say it's about 60% 65 somewhere in there. Ah so definitely less than ninety. Of course I saw that you voted you put us at.
02:38.46
Jeremy
Oh.
02:47.94
Jeremy
Oh yeah.
02:56.67
forestandtrees
Like 0% which
03:00.97
Jeremy
Um, that was more just that's me being rambunctious against you because I know that you love to argue the ninety and so I just was that was just lovingly. Yeah, just lovingly giving a little nudge but because here's the deal Jeff all right.
03:02.71
forestandtrees
Yeah, you were just trying to correct for for the curve. Yeah.
03:18.30
Jeremy
We were at a wine festival Now you came you came early, we were still setting up for the event so to to your credit. It hadn't started yet. But here's what I want to say you didn't drink any wine and this was an all day festival Literally you walked there.
03:24.72
forestandtrees
Ah.
03:34.37
forestandtrees
Right.
03:37.16
Jeremy
From your house you and I are not the same Jeff okay because they're like no universe where I live across the street from a wine festival I stop by so I'm already there to say hi to a friend and I do not drink wine i'd. I stand by my 0% that I voted on the Instagram.
03:57.45
forestandtrees
I mean to be fair, it was 10 in the morning. but yeah. but yeah
04:04.38
Jeremy
Details these are details erroneous details I have I have drank at 10 a m that just means you are committed to it if you're at 10 m okay so you could have come back.
04:09.61
forestandtrees
Yeah, you start start early. You have more more time to enjoy.
04:19.49
Jeremy
How long did it take you to walk there.
04:20.73
forestandtrees
I could not not long at all. Yeah I honestly um honestly I got there I got there earlier because I texted you beforehand saying hey do you want to get coffee beforehand and you were like oh man I got to get there super early. So I thought okay, Jeremy's getting there early and I wanted to get there before the thing opened. Um. So I could just say high without having to pay you to get in which so that's why I didn't drink anything because I don't know I I didn't feel like paying for for wine that day. Yeah, yeah.
04:47.31
Jeremy
That's $35 fee for 8 pores was just ridiculous.
04:51.75
forestandtrees
So I text you ask do um, do you want to get a coffee beforehand and you were like oh super early man can do a rain check and then I was thinking later like does did he mean that literally does he want me to cash in that rain check later or was that just a a nice way of saying like no thanks. Don't want to get coffee with you.
04:57.20
Jeremy
No okay, no no, no I.
05:07.20
Jeremy
No is saying I have to get there because I thought the event is you know we don't need to talk this much about the event but it was it was scheduled at 11 to 5 But it's actually 10 to five because there was like a vip first hour
05:17.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.
05:24.74
Jeremy
So I thought you were thinking? Oh this thing starts at 11 let's go get coffee and I'm like no I actually have to be there for the ten o'clock thing and then I'm like I actually have to be there for nine thirty to set up and then I have an hour drive on top of that because I don't live across the street from this so I was like yes, it's just too much. You know there's too much.
05:33.28
forestandtrees
Um.
05:35.33
forestandtrees
Right? right? Yeah, it's it's It's a long day you know and you can't mix your your uppers with your downers I get it.
05:46.18
Jeremy
I mean you can but you know when you're all day in the heat you got were you and I are to age now where we can't We can't pull off those those high jinks the way we used to. So yeah, you got ah you got to hydrate and plan ahead accordingly. So this is not an episode on wine.
05:47.72
forestandtrees
You got to say hydrit That's true.
05:59.45
forestandtrees
It's so true. So true.
06:04.32
Jeremy
Although I would love to do an episode of wine. But today let's get us back to chapter 7 I would love to set the tone with verse six. This is some good news I love I love starting these off with good news in each chapter. So here's what Paul writes romans chapter 7 verse 6 but now we have been released from the law woo for we died to it and we are no longer captive to its power Amen and Amen now we can serve god not in the old way Jeff of obeying the letter of the law but in the new way of living. In the spirit and whenever I think about verses like this I've I've shared this before but I think about a guy in my last church when I was a lead pastor who told me that he loved the old testament more than the new testament and I this guy lives rent free in my head because I just think about that comment.
06:53.86
forestandtrees
Um.
06:59.32
Jeremy
And I read verse like this and I still can't make sense of it I'm just gonna be honest I just go. Yeah I mean I I appreciate the old testament I read it I study it all you know all that but to like say that you love that more than the new testament as a christian again if you're jewish sure. But as a christian I just. I don't get it because I think Paul's like look we got good news here where we died to the old way we got a new way. We're living in the spirit. So. It's my good That's my good news for us today. Jeff.
07:27.23
forestandtrees
Totally yeah, have have you followed up with this guy by the way because this is I think this is maybe the third time you brought this person up at this point. Um, no, it's okay I just like I because I wonder because that could mean different things if you're.
07:35.34
Jeremy
Um, you think I you think I need some counseling or something or.
07:43.77
forestandtrees
You seem to be um, like caught up in this idea that oh he's he's stuck in the old law like doesn't he understand freedom in Christ you know, don't have the law. But maybe he's just talking about just it's the old testament is more entertaining because there's more like interesting narrative stories in there versus the new testament is that possible or do you think he was specifically talking about.
08:02.20
Jeremy
Um, yeah I think it was the whole he had a reverence for the old testament is I think the way I would describe it and I met with this guy quite a bit because he left our church over this? um because he just he felt like I and again I unabashedly.
08:02.97
forestandtrees
Old covenant.
08:07.60
forestandtrees
Okay, oh Wow. Okay.
08:19.75
Jeremy
You know celebrate the new testament and it wasn't like a secret and he just felt like I was dishonoring the old testament by you know, not giving it. Its proper place which would be you know on par with the new testament or I guess for him elevated above so it it didn't end. Well you know as as.
08:34.41
forestandtrees
Oh yeah.
08:38.56
Jeremy
Things sometimes do. But I just there's so just so many passages you know in the new testament that are like celebrating it and we got tons of them in hebrews that we you know previously did shout out to our our first season but I don't I just I he just comes to mind when I read verses like this of like someone is just like nope.
08:45.83
forestandtrees
Yeah.
08:58.10
Jeremy
No thanks I I like the old testament I want that I want old testament Jesus you know it's like oh okay.
09:02.10
forestandtrees
Do do you think there's any chance that he's listening to the show now or or just wouldn't wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole okay
09:07.34
Jeremy
I Think that's that's unlikely yeah I don't think he loved my theology So I would love it if he was listening I doubt he is I I would not I would not put money on that because he didn't want to hear me preach anymore. So I doubt he would want to be listening to.
09:16.75
forestandtrees
Yeah. Right.
09:26.87
Jeremy
Ah, podcast where where where I'm the most Christian voice in the podcast right? because you're not, you're not going to help him out from where he's coming from. That's what that's what you know we're doomed.
09:32.31
forestandtrees
That's how that's how you know it's bad. Yeah, if if if you're listening a you know old testament fan right in. Let us know we we love to hear from you.
09:47.90
Jeremy
Ah, that's great. All right? What questions you have let's go.
09:48.60
forestandtrees
All right? Yeah, yeah, so let's let's get into the whole um old testament new covenant freedom and Christ thing because I'll I'll just say here my my first question ah does deal with divorce as I said before and I mean I think within context paul is kind of saying like this is an old law. That we don't necessarily need to follow anymore. So I'm aware of that. But also I'm I'm curious about it because Jesus talks specifically about divorce too and has the same same attitude as paul here at least from what I can tell so go and read so this roman 7 verse 2 for example, when a woman marries. Law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies the laws of marriage. No longer apply to her so while her husband is alive. She would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies she is free from the law and does not commit adultery when she remarries. So I guess to be a little bit more specific this is talking about the biblical view on divorce and remarriage like if you if you marry someone again after getting divorced, you're basically committing adultery as as I understand it and Jesus seems to back this up. He talks about it in the sermon on the mount and then. Ah, some people ask him about it later in Matthew 19 verse 8 Jesus replied moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts. But it was not what god originally intended and I tell you this whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery.
11:18.65
forestandtrees
Unless his wife has been unfaithful. So ah, this is one of those cases where Jesus seems to be coming down harder than the law of moses making it more restrictive. So just caveat here I should say that I am married I have not been divorced I don't want to.
11:28.34
Jeremy
Oh.
11:36.95
forestandtrees
Make light of divorce by any means I've I've heard that it's an incredibly painful experience. I do not doubt that I'm I'm sure that it is the terrible thing I wouldn't wish on anybody but also just I I can empathize with people who are in a situation where. They're married and maybe there there's been no infidelity. No one's cheated, but it still seems like I could. It's very easy for me to imagine scenarios where divorce would be better than continuing to stay married and then once people are divorced like why can't they. Remarry someone else and move on. Ah so something else I wanted to say is like when I was bringing up this question and looking back at what Jesus had to say about it. Um, in my head I always remember Jesus giving a couple of exemptions like I always remembered him saying except for infidelity or abuse and then when I looked at the text.
12:15.45
Jeremy
Oh.
12:34.90
forestandtrees
The abuse caveat is actually not in there. So maybe I was just misremembering that because just like growing up in the church within christian culture I feel like I remembered people saying like yeah just of course if you have an abusive spouse. It's okay to to leave to get out of that scenario. So I get ah another problematic thing that I don't really get like why does why does Jesus seem to not have that qualifier seems seems kind of like an obvious thing you should put in there for me. Ah and just okay, 1 more thing I want to say before I watch. Must you talk.
13:02.52
Jeremy
Ah.
13:09.71
Jeremy
This is a big setup.
13:12.20
forestandtrees
I know I know I have I have a lot to say on this I don't know it's it's something I've thought about a lot because because Jesus talks about it and it just seems like a weird thing for Jesus to just throw in there of all the things. Ah okay, just just to say I feel like I you know I've spent most of my life in the church. So I know a lot of people who are divorced and remarried in the church. I worked at a megachurch for many years and I remember at one point I was put into this bible study with some my coworkers and so we all had to share our testimony. So we all told our life stories and I was really surprised to learn that half the people like 5 out of the 10 people in this group had all been divorced and remarried and I had no idea. And you know, but's I feel like it. It's cool that the church is so cool with that. But why are why is the modern church like less judgmental than the biblical standard even in the new testament. Even Jesus. So yeah, all that to say Jeremy? what What's the deal. What? What's your personal position on. Divorce and remarriage in light of what Jesus and Paul have to say.
14:16.69
Jeremy
Let me begin by saying I actually don't think the point of these verses is to explain about marriage and divorce I think this is all Paul talking about the law and he's using an analogy. So just to be fair I think the point is he's saying is you know? ah.
14:26.82
forestandtrees
Um.
14:34.54
Jeremy
This new thing doesn't go into effect until Jesus dies. The new covenant isn't set in emotion until the death of Christ and so when he's talking about you know remarriage and all this I think he's using this as an analogy not not literally so I don't have to answer any of the rest of this question because it's erroneous.
14:49.19
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that's that's what I thought you were going to say perfect. But Jesus though why does Jesus talk about it. That's that's my question.
14:56.25
Jeremy
Ah, next like okay, fine. Ah, okay, so first I want to you gave a good disclaimer I am also married I have not been divorced as well. So We both have that I guess we're we're sharing something in common even though you don't. Drink wine at Wine Festivals. We We have that in common. But the disclaimer I Want to add is I Just want to just acknowledge the Lgbtq Plus community who I think has especially suffered under the way that the church has handled this issue. Um.
15:29.23
forestandtrees
A.
15:32.95
Jeremy
And you know you've you've kind of talked about the church can be at times rather lenient in heterosexual marriages and divorces but tends to be very very on the line when it comes to any other type of marriage and so I just want to. If you know if our listeners are in that camp I Want to just just acknowledge that and say we're aware of that I think that has to play to this conversation as Well. Now if you were to ask most pastors this question. You know they would they would say something to the effect of yeah you know this this is hard. Um, but we really try to honor this and you know we we apply it universally So I said Well yeah, it's It's not ah you know it's it applieded harsher to you know, gay couples than it is to straight couples who want to get divorced or remarried and they say no, you know if we find out about it. We apply you know and that I mean. Again I spend lots of time with pastors. These are these are close deep dear friends of mine and I and I think the intention is there. They believe that what I would just say from my own experience of trying to be in that seat and live that out as well as just being an ear for people who have a lot of their own experiences in the church. I Think it's really hard for the church to live this out and apply this you know whatever the position on Divorce and remarriage to apply it Equally I Just don't think it does and so I want to just also put that disclaimer in I think the intention is there I think if we have to be honest, it, We're gonna go. It's not.
16:57.50
forestandtrees
M.
17:05.21
Jeremy
It's not applied across the board. Ah in in any sense that most people would say is fair which makes this very problematic when you then try to theologically give a reason for that now you'd mentioned there are a couple reasons. Abuse is not 1 of them. You're right? There's 2 reasons biblically we get. For divorce. It's abandonment and infidelity. Those are the only 2 so. Basically if your spouse says to you I want nothing to do with you I'm leaving you ah I'm gonna go do my own thing you are allowed to say okay you have given me you know a biblical grounds I can move on with that.
17:27.17
forestandtrees
A.
17:44.36
Jeremy
Um, or obviously infidelity. They you know cheat on you. They are someone else you you have biblical grounds What is gray even so that would say that's as as close to black and white as we get in the text what is gray on even that though is just because you have a biblical grounds for divorce.
17:54.19
forestandtrees
Mother.
18:03.57
Jeremy
Doesn't mean you have biblical grounds for remarriage so put that in your pipe and smoke it. Yeah oh your your spouse cheated on you. Oh Wow. Okay so I'm I'm biblically justified to get divorce Yes, but if we want to go letter of the law. You're not biblically justified to get remarried.
18:06.17
forestandtrees
Um.
18:20.10
forestandtrees
Right? right.
18:23.16
Jeremy
Which bummer for you right? Ah so here's what I would say here's been my own journey and I might this might be another episode where I get heavily judged for my answer here. So be it. Um I I would say pastorally when I was you know. In my different formal roles on staff at churches I held a very I would say hard line on this and tried to you know, tried to follow this as as close as I could to what I understood the text to say which was if you don't have. You know, abandonment or infidelity. There isn't really a biblical grounds. You know to get divorced abuse being the trickiest 1 right? where someone goes? Yeah, but you know they they hit me or whatever you're like there's not a you know and I literally would say is I hear you but there's no verse I can point you to um.
19:11.30
forestandtrees
Ah.
19:18.82
Jeremy
And so I you know I would say I held that line here's what I would say now I regret that and I would say I pastorally regret that and even I would go so far as say like I repent of how I applied this now I'm not repenting because.
19:26.52
forestandtrees
Huh.
19:38.78
Jeremy
You know I hey I I think I was you know ill- spiritted or wanting to hurt people. No I just think I understood it in in a way that ultimately brought more hurt to people and so I think this gets into a bigger question where we have to ask? The question is are we using the scriptures. To give us life or to Rob us of life and you can see there's a radical difference when we apply to scriptures and we say yeah you know if you if you live this out. It might be hard but it's gonna bring life to you I literally spoke with someone this morning. Um, ah a female friend of mine. Who is divorced and was you know, asking her. You know about talking about raising kids and and you know she's talking about having to do it as a solo mom because you know she's divorced from her husband now and and that relationship has gone south and how difficult that is and all the while I'm thinking. Yeah, but at least you're not with him anymore. Because I knew of you know their marriage and I knew how tricky that is and so again, the the old version of me would have said well yeah, you, you know technically should have you know, still been married and I look at them now and I go I just can't imagine saying that to her and saying the rest of your life. You're stuck because you made. 1 bad choice and that now defines your your entire life and that's just hard and so yeah I think there are couples that stay together and they are absolutely miserable and they make each other miserable and they make their kids miserable and.
20:55.64
forestandtrees
Ah.
21:10.72
Jeremy
You know we go is this the essence of what Jesus was talking about is this the you know the intent and to go. Okay, well yeah, but if they got divorced that would be that would be a sin that would be a mistake. Okay, so let's say they did now take a step back. What happened what does god do when we sit. Well.
21:22.95
forestandtrees
Ah.
21:29.99
Jeremy
We sin all the time and even christians have to acknowledge we sin all the time we're go to talk about this in another question today. But this is a regular like you know I think James Stoppsons the only one I ever heard make the argument that I think he was above sin or stop sinning or something but I was a long time ago I don't know if he still holds to that.
21:44.41
forestandtrees
Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:49.21
Jeremy
I know you're big James Stopson fan ah I think the bigger question is like okay so if we fall short of god's ideal. So let's say you know Jesus saying Li? yeah, the ideal is that you don't separate. Okay, what happens when we fall short of that. Well, that's gonna be. Probably very likely when it comes to all kinds of relationships of ours. Obviously the marriage relationship. How many people go to their deathbed saying I honored everything I said in my vows to you probably not most you know, even if you stayed together you're gonna go. Yeah I I made promises that I didn't keep and I wasn't able to. But.
22:14.87
forestandtrees
M.
22:24.96
Jeremy
That was like the intent that was the goal of what I was trying to commit to you and so I would say if god looks like Jesus which spoiler alert if this is your first episode you've ever heard of ours welcome I think god does ah if god looks like Jesus then god stoops down.
22:34.62
forestandtrees
Yeah.
22:43.74
Jeremy
And meets us in our sin and carries on with us from that point on of all, right? Let's figure out what's next and so I think I would say you know it's kind of like the homosexual issue I could say hey here's here's what the verses say I can show you them. We can talk through them and now. That's a biblical response I so I can say biblically here's what the verses say abandonment infidelity now. Let's come up with a theological way to make sense of that in light of who we know Jesus to be and everything else and so I would say I think my view has changed quite a bit these days where I'm definitely not the guy saying yeah you should get divorced if you're happier. You know. Or if she's not your soul mate move on and find one that is I mean definitely not that but to say to someone you made a mistake marrying that person now the rest of your life should be miserable and you know there's no way out of it. Even if you're getting abused. Because that's what the text says I just think is using the bible to Rob people of life and I'm at a point now where like I don't think that's how god wants us to use the text and there would be certainly christians who will adamantly disagree with that line and christians who will probably say that I am a heretic for the stance and I would say okay good. Call me whatever dam you gotta call me I just I'm not gonna interpret the bible anymore to rob life of people I don't think that's what Jesus is asking me so I don't know if that answers your question as much as brings you in on the journey I've been on with this one and I just think it's far messier.
24:17.44
forestandtrees
M.
24:18.98
Jeremy
Then many christians want to to you know say and I definitely think marriage should be entered into slowly cautiously strategically and divorce should as well. This should not be something hey I you know I found something better and I'm moving on. But if you're in you know I just. I can't I can't not acknowledge I think there's moments where like this is not healthy and I have literally watched people become a shell of themselves because of the impact their spouse had on them and then watch them come to life after getting divorced and you go I just can't. I can't be the one to argue hey because of some verse you have to stay in that the rest of your life when everything I see and what I sense Jesus saying in the moment is is not that so what do you think? Jeff's that too squishy of an answer.
25:13.96
forestandtrees
I appreciate that answer I like how compassionate you are and yeah I like what you said about? Um, the lgbtq issue. Of course that you know people will bring that up all the time when they'll say like why can't um, people who are gay married like work at a church or be a pastor or something like that if. If they do allow someone who's divorced and remarried like what's the difference you know for me I would just say like yeah I think I would be great to see like the evangelical church get to the place with lgbt que that they are with divorce and remarriage right now of just more compassionate more just forgive people and let them in or whatever or not. Not consider people to be living in sin I I don't know I get again like I think the reason like I had so much to say about this and the reason like it. It really bothers me and I was so curious to hear what you have to say is because Jesus talks about it so explicitly. You know like I think that's another thing you and I have in common is that we both like don't care that much. What Paul has to say but we both care what Jesus has to say or put more weight on it because you're saying okay well if you know if god looks like Jesus well I wonder what Jesus would say about this but you don't have to wonder because Jesus.
26:15.94
Jeremy
Yeah.
26:25.70
forestandtrees
Talk about this very explicitly. Ah, and so I would say like really if you really want to commit to Jesus if you believe the gospels are accurate reproductions of what Jesus audibly said then I feel like the best you can do is say like if you're in a bad marriage. You can just be singled or you can do good divorce and be single the rest of your life. It seems like there's no way to explain how you could get remarried according to Jesus right? Ah to go back to verse Matthew 18 Jesus gives this whole thing and then the disciple says if this is the case it is better not to marry and then Jesus. Either. It has a total non sequitur and changes the subject or just tries to give people some perspective here by saying not everyone can accept the statement There are only those whom god helps some are born eunuchs some have been made eunuchx by others and some chose not to marry for the sake of the kingdom let anyone who can accept this. Can so I feel like Jesus is basically saying like tough rocks. You know some people are unuchs you know I don't yeah, what do you think about about the gospel version of Jesus there. The Map matthew's account of jesus's teachings
27:36.95
Jeremy
Yeah, and I would you know probably put it in the same conversation as was it last week we're talking about slavery. Um, you know where it's like yeah I wish Jesus would have said this differently and I think what he did say doesn't necessarily line up with what I see from him. Um, and so that's where I would go. Okay, what's you know like we do with slavery like we do Volumeop is like contextually, what's going on what are they? what are they dealing with what were they talking about how how were these conversations framed for them which again, ah you know there are similarities. There's also a lot of things that are different. You know and in that culture women could not issue divorces.
28:13.14
forestandtrees
Um.
28:13.17
Jeremy
So it wasn't it was a patriarchy game and guys held the only keys to this and so you know that's not the case today like women can initiate a divorce say that wasn't possible in Jesus culture the way it is today. So there are things you have to I think read back into and go all right? Well, that's that's a factor. You know, like that should play some role in how we understand it and we can each determine the role that that is differently um, but to me to say no, it's exactly the same because you said that way that you know that's exactly way it applies I just go I don't think so and again you know. Look at okay, if if getting a divorce is a sin. Why does that inherently cause certain people that I've seen who have left abusive marriages. Why does it cause them to thrive afterward because in my experience. That's not what sin does sin doesn't cause you to thrive sin robs you of life.
29:04.74
forestandtrees
Um.
29:10.72
Jeremy
Um, now again, that's just practically speaking right? So there's a reason we talk about this even like the sexuality stuff like romans won why was Paul writing about the the certain things he was writing about this because it was obvious to them as they watch like hey if you enter into this lifestyle. It's gonna have negative effects.
29:16.45
forestandtrees
Um.
29:28.20
Jeremy
I'm just telling you the people that I've seen leave destructive marriages. Don't have those negative effects. They come back to life and so I just take a step back and go okay I'm I'm an ah observer of real life and of how this plays out and.
29:45.96
Jeremy
I just can't make the argument. Well they they made a sinful decision and now they're living with the consequences that sin that's not that's not their experience and so I think you just have to this stuff's far messier than we want it to be and yeah I wish Jesus would have said it differently or explained it differently or said hey and if you're in a different culture where.
29:48.77
forestandtrees
M.
30:04.90
Jeremy
Women can't you know, initiated divorce or you know all those things I wish that? yeah and I put that in I wish he would have said it about savo very different but he didn't so we have to take what we get and take the person of Jesus the example of Jesus as well as you know.
30:05.10
forestandtrees
Um.
30:19.95
Jeremy
Ah, John sixteen twelve what the holy spirit is doing today that is revealing truth today as we submit our life and go I try to make sense of all of it and hold all of it loosely with humility saying I could be wrong on any of this but I'm just trying to work my way through it and I think this is another one where. I was very letter of the law and now you know no pun intended I'm way more spirit of the law going all right? The holy spirit can navigate this maybe broader than I thought originally.
30:50.97
forestandtrees
Um, no, that's good I mean I I like that about you I guess it it. It brings up kind of this abstract like theological question of like in your mind is the person of Jesus different than the words of Jesus like do you have space for that idea of like. Gospels might not even be 100 % accurate or Jesus maybe said some other things about marriage and remarriage that just didn't get written down or something like that or.
31:08.90
Jeremy
Well I would say yeah sure absolutely and I would add to that there is a person of Jesus alive today as well that that I balance the recorded version of him you know in the gospels which were written by.
31:20.73
forestandtrees
Ah.
31:22.78
forestandtrees
Yeah.
31:28.49
Jeremy
Men in a patriarchal culture in a certain you know, certain time of history in a certain kind like all that. Yeah and so I take those and and try to make sense of those but I also take what do I see Jesus doing today and again I I compare all of it like what is the holy spirit doing today I don't think god is only alive.
31:29.19
forestandtrees
Sure.
31:47.96
forestandtrees
Right? right.
31:48.39
Jeremy
In the text which some christians do I think god is legitimately alive today so that that filters in you know how I interpret what happened two thousand years ago
31:59.31
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, that's cool. That's great I guess just sorry, just 1 other thing that that I should say um, is because I I do want to commend the church for for being like more forgiving on this I'm and I'm sure there are except I'm sure there's a lot of like. More conservative churches that are like absolutely never no divorce ever or whatever. Um, so I mean something that I would want to challenge the church on is like I think maybe they take marriage too lightly in the sense of like the christian culture that I'm a part of like. Has a really bad habit of like pressuring young people to get married super young. Um, you know I'm I'm one of those people I would say like I went to bible college and to our credit we were self-aware we all made jokes about you know ring by spring or your money back. That was the joke but it was also the reality of.
32:34.85
Jeremy
No.
32:49.23
forestandtrees
Yeah, me and my friends all got married right out our college and like I said my wife and I were still together. But I have friends who are all you know thirty years old and already divorced and remarried because of that christian culture. So again, that's not that that's not in the bible. The bible doesn and say you need to get married right on a bible college but it's a very big part of.
33:00.61
Jeremy
Out next.
33:08.77
forestandtrees
Christian culture in my experience.
33:09.59
Jeremy
Well the other day My wife and I were talking and we were going through the names of couples that I had married you know and we're like are they still together are they still together and I think it was like half of them that we knew of you know were like divorced and you know and it's like huh like yeah, there's.
33:15.66
forestandtrees
M. Yeah.
33:29.40
Jeremy
Definitely this Christian culture of like get married young and and again you had the purity culture into that where you know you can't you can't kiss or touch or look at her you know until you're married which then adds a whole nother pressure like I gotta I've gotta do this and I think a lot it.
33:39.96
forestandtrees
Ah.
33:46.66
Jeremy
Christians get married young not knowing what they're getting into and then when they get into it. They're like Holy Cow What now.
33:55.15
forestandtrees
What have we done. Ah, that remind when you said that that reminds me of sometimes when I look for my my through my portfolio of like all the logos I've done and I'm like half of these companies. Don't exist anymore because I've done like logos for friends who are like I've got this cool startup and then.
33:55.60
Jeremy
What have we done.
34:09.99
Jeremy
Do you feel? Do you feel the same sense of like failure that I do when I look at these marriages. Maybe if your logo was better like they would still be around love it like I yeah.
34:10.67
forestandtrees
I make the logo and I'm really proud of it and then I I know a couple years later. It's like they're not even they't even doing this anymore. They've gone dark I know I I take full responsibility for all all of my friend's failures.
34:27.59
Jeremy
I Definitely don't feel great. You know I'm like oh I married you and you're divorce I married you and you're divorce. You know it's like um, okay.
34:29.62
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, another thing we haven't common Jeremy we're just setting. Everyone's up for failure and bearing the weight of it. Yeah, all right.
34:39.97
Jeremy
I I think that's I think that's part of the human existence Jeff but sure.
34:47.10
forestandtrees
So that was obviously a big topic heavy question. Let's let's transition to a lighter note here kind of a kind of a flashback to our previous season where we covered hebrews because you asked me? Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm nostalgic for you know this podcast used to be so good and.
34:51.59
Jeremy
Oh okay.
34:57.90
Jeremy
You like flashbacks.
35:05.74
forestandtrees
Ruined it. But for first season was better. Yeah, all right? Um I'm I'm sure you remember this, you asked me about like cravings. Why do we crave things that are bad for us or something like that. Um, and I quoted back to you this verse. That's that's here in Roman 7 verse 15
35:08.44
Jeremy
Um, wouldn't We're not good anymore. Okay wow I Don't agree.
35:25.50
forestandtrees
I don't really understand myself for I want to do I want to do? what is right? But I don't do it instead. I do what I hate so this this has always been kind of a ah favorite verse of mine I feel like Paul's very relatable here. You know you can you can apply this to the sin nature which is I think. More what he's talking about but I remember when I was like in bible college like in my romans class and I was procrastinating I write my papers I'd be like oh yeah, I'm just like Paul like I want to stand top of my homework and do my papers right now. But I do what I hate so I'm going to be procrastinating and then I'm going to be up at. 3 in the morning finishing my papers for college. Ah you know and of course you can apply this to like trying to stick to a diet or any kind of like self-discipline thing. So I just want to ask you just this like I said this is not a heavy theological question. This is just us talking you know? Ah, how are the cravings going for you lately.
36:01.25
Jeremy
Oh.
36:17.60
Jeremy
Well thank thank you for the pastoral question. That's very very pastoral of you shepherdy me I still crave things that are not good for me that hasn't changed as I thought about your question I also thought about Matthew 7 versus thirteenth through 14
36:19.50
forestandtrees
And.
36:37.11
Jeremy
So You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate the highway to hell is broad and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way but the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult and only a few ever find it I literally like I think about that all the time like why is the gate So small. Why does life seem Hard. You know the things that ultimately they're like this is what you should do and it's like oh ah so here's here's the best way I can explain it these days. Um a few years back I was £30 heavier than I am now.
36:56.71
forestandtrees
And.
37:14.60
Jeremy
Was eating very differently still working out but I just ate whatever I wanted whenever I wanted and what I would say is I still crave those foods I haven't forgotten the foods that you know I used to eat all the time and in whatever quantities I want. Um, but now what I realize and I'm way more aware of is that I don't feel great when I eat those foods right? So I enjoy the the moment of eating them. But then afterwards I don't feel great and I was so funny. The tiing of this I was reminded of this last night because
37:33.21
forestandtrees
Ha ha.
37:47.21
Jeremy
Ah, normally I'm I'm pretty disciplined these days with what I eat you know I'm usually making meals in advance or prepping or kind of thinking through or if I go this place. This is you know something and it's more based on like this is what's good for my body and it like fuels me and I feel good afterward rather than like oh. That was you know that was intense but went to a baseball game last night as a family as a four o'clock game so normally if we like into like a evening game I would try to eat dinner before then go to the game get some peanuts and you know a beer or something but this was a four o'clocks I'm like ah we're gonna have to eat there am it's fine I'm just gonna go for it. You know it.
38:19.89
forestandtrees
Um.
38:27.80
Jeremy
One meal Iss not gonna kill me so I eat the Jumbo hot dog for dinner is is good this fine then my wife ordered a burger at the game a about half of it and she's like I'm full. Do you want the rest of this now. Normally I would not order a burger or a hot dog.
38:31.10
forestandtrees
Um.
38:45.95
Jeremy
Giant hot dog and half a burger but she's gonna you know I don't want to go to waste so I eat the rest of her burger then my kids are getting like pretzels and cheese and they're not eating all of it. So I'm eating so their pretzel cheese and it was just like before I knew it I had just eaten so much food and we're literally walking.
38:48.94
forestandtrees
Mother.
39:04.20
Jeremy
Back from the game and I'm like oh yeah, this is why I don't do that because I feel awful and just like ah and I don't feel that very much anymore cause I don't eat like that and so in a weird way I would say being more disciplined with my food has helped me to crave.
39:10.16
forestandtrees
Ah.
39:23.86
Jeremy
Healthier Foods not necessarily because of the the flavor of them but because I know if I eat this I'm gonna feel great I'm gonna have more energy and I like that feeling more than I like just the flavor of whatever it is I'm eating all that to say this is like you know, Obviously we eat multiple times a day or most people do.
39:42.15
forestandtrees
Um.
39:42.55
Jeremy
Ah, so this is a constant thing in my mind of like thinking through what I'm eating So I try to keep this in mind with like sinful desires as well like that may feel great in the moment but I know it I'm not gonna enjoy the feeling afterward and so to me, it's like a very easy analogy to go No I'm gonna choose the things that. May not be what I want to do in the moment. But afterwards I'm going to feel great and again I think practically sin always robs you of life which is like that Awesome meal you eat and then afterwards you're like I don't feel well.
40:14.90
forestandtrees
Ah.
40:15.10
Jeremy
And you know that's sin. That's so just like the feeling of sin of like well and you just that regret buyers remorse. Why did I eat so much of it and there's times where you know a really good meal's worth it. There's no times like last night I'm like that wasn't worth it like why did I eat all that food. So all I just say cravings are still there.
40:26.10
forestandtrees
Yeah.
40:33.45
Jeremy
But I think I try to just not spiritualize it so much where it's like am I craving sin here or of Jesus but like look is this thing gonna give me life or Rob me of life and not make it more complicated than that. It's like if it's gonna Rob me of life choose less of that like. Don't choose those things as much as you choose the things that you go this is gonna really be life giving for me and so I don't know the food analogy works for me helps me kind of think it through but cravings are still there because the gateway to life is very narrow Jeff and the road is difficult.
41:05.55
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, it's It's a difficult road I Yeah I relate to that I feel like um like a lot of times we're kind of just like joking around when we talk about like unhealthy food is. Sin and temptation or like we don't mean it in the spiritual sense. But I don't you could You could certainly make the argument that a lot of christians like to talk about the body as a temple and things like that and like what what there's all these.. What's what it what you pour in comes out of you or something you know you could interpret that very literally. I suppose in terms of the food. The the food that you put into your body and the yeah, what? what shape and and consistency it it forms coming out. So what.
41:36.55
Jeremy
Wow, It's getting weird. Awesome.
41:44.75
Jeremy
Wow There we go everybody if we lost you previously. You're back.
41:50.59
forestandtrees
I'm not a nutritional I'm not a marriage counselor and I'm not a nutritionalist so you know don't don't take any advice from me I should say that? Yeah yeah, ah right, Do you do you have the next question for me or do you want me to.
41:57.36
Jeremy
On our bowel movements. You know you're not our go to okay, good to know.
42:07.44
forestandtrees
To go with the with Verse twenty here. Okay oh and oh perfect. Okay, great. Okay, cool. So my final question for you in Verse Twenty Let's see it says. But if I do what I don't want to do.
42:08.82
Jeremy
Well let's go with you and then I'll I'll give you my question at the end. We'll let you end it, you'll you'll be our our bookend.
42:26.80
forestandtrees
I'm not really the one doing wrong. It is sin living in me that does it so again like this whole this whole chip after Paul takes a brief ah detour to talk about marriage and divorce and stuff for the most part he's talking about like hit himself being kind of introspective talking about himself struggling with sin. And we struggle with sin and I thought this was sort of interesting. He's sort of anthropomorphizing sin a little bit possibly even shifting the blame. You could say depending on how you read it? What are you saying? Ah I'm not really the one doing wrong. It is sin living in me that does it so it kind of reminds me of you know the cliche thing of someone says like.
42:51.15
Jeremy
M.
43:05.14
forestandtrees
The devil made me do it. Um, and of course it's It's very open to interpretation like that I'd say the bible is is kind of unclear or like different authors of the bible kind of dip in and out of whether whether it's really spiritual forces like is it. Satan and his demons that are causing all these bad things that happen in the world or is it just the sinful heart of man and the flesh and stuff like that. So I was just curious. What What do you think about all that how do you parse the difference between like when people misbehave is that their own fault is that the Devil. Or spiritual warfare causing people to do bad things and if it is the spiritual warfare can christians use that as a legitimate excuse for their own bad behavior by saying it's not my fault. It's the sin living in me. What do you think?? yeah.
43:53.14
Jeremy
The devil made me do it blame him. Okay, so christians should not get off the hook for sin let's with let's start there. Ah any any christian no I'm not disagreeing with Paul here I'm just I'm gonna explain what how I think we interpret Paul.
43:58.64
forestandtrees
Okay, even Paul. Okay.
44:10.94
Jeremy
Any christian that says and especially they're using Paul here of like oh I didn't want to do it. You know it's sin living in me so you can't blame me. It's like well okay so you lost your free will like your free will is overrided by by the sinful nature which no, that's not what anyone is saying when they say that that's not what Paul's saying right Paul is just acknowledging. There's a battle that seems to rage inside of us to which I would say I know exactly what he's talking about and I suspect you know exactly what he's talking about where there is this but it goes back to even the cravings question right of like why? Why is there this desire in me to go and do things that I know. Like that is not what's best for me, but that desire is there and that thing is there and a lot of christians have gotten really weird trying to make sense of this and I think a lot of times if you read Christian history sometimes we overreact to this like I think it was Augustine. Was like plagued by lust and so a lot of what he wrote was him trying to overcompensate. Why does he feel these lustful desires and I would say maybe overcompensated maybe he went too far on some of the things he came up with because he didn't like the fact that was still there. Even after he had you know, submitted his life to Jesus and so I think you have to acknowledge and I would say as an active current follower of Jesus I acknowledge that even though I've submitted my life to Jesus I still at times crave things that I know are not of Jesus which you go what is that? Well how do I make sense of that.
45:43.92
Jeremy
I think there's a variety of ways to make sense. So I'm gonna share a few quotes that I think are helpful 1 is from someone named Amit Ray I think this is practically very helpful says you are not your thoughts. You are the observer of your thoughts I think that's really a helpful distinction to say.
46:00.60
forestandtrees
Ah.
46:03.51
Jeremy
Because I think this is where again I think there is legitimate forces of evil call it satan call it the accused or call whatever you want to call it I think evil is real and I think one of the the methods of evil is to convince us that if you think a thought that is the same as you doing that thought or you that that is who you are right. And so I don't think that's true and so I think just because you desire something sinful. You still have free will you still have the ability to say yeah I could do that I choose not to do that and and I've shared before when I feel like thoughts about other people come up that I know like hey I'm not valuing that person. The way that I should I start? That's a moment for me to pray like okay Jesus meet me right here because that thought is there and I don't want to give into that thought I don't want that thought to be my reality in this moment and so I think that's a really helpful even like a couple of our kids you know at times really start with anxiety and this is a line I tell them like. Just because you thought something doesn't mean that's who you are like you're the person that then gets to decide you. You are observing your thoughts and you get to decide which thoughts do you choose which thoughts do you act on which thoughts. Do you decide that is gonna be who I am and so I think that's one important distinction. Then I want to read something that a pastor named Andrew Farley writes this is in the book naked the naked gospel he says. Ah although not actually physical the power of sin is much like a parasite that has found its way inside your body I think this is a helpful analogy this parasite lies within us.
47:38.92
Jeremy
But it's not us when our mind receives messages from the power of Sin These messages can feel or sound just like us. Especially if we're not aware that our old self is dead and gone and that we truly don't want to sin if we're not aware of who we really are. Sin can make us think that its messages originate with us after a sinful thought ah at their simple thought passes through our minds Sin can even turn right around and hit us with an accusatory thought How could I a Christian even think something like that right.
48:16.78
forestandtrees
Ah.
48:16.87
Jeremy
So I think what he's describing here I think christians can really resonate with like yeah well I can't believe that thought just crossed my mind and then now it's like a double whammy of not only you're considering the thought now you feel shame that that thought even you know so I go back to. You are not your thoughts you're the observer of your thoughts you get to decide whoa whoa that thought is not who I want to be and I think that's a big deal now. Practically what do we do with all this it goes right back to what we've talked about previously you rely on the holy spirit. That's that's what we do the living person of Jesus. If god is dwelling inside of you every time you have that struggle every time you have that thought every time you go whoa. Where did that think come from is an invitation to say okay Jesus I'm thinking this right now I don't want that to be the the thought that I choose so help me with another thought help me go down a different road right. And that's literally these are like prayer reminders for me when I think crazy things they become prayer reminders. Okay, whoa that one that one was not who I want to be don't want to be you know, dwelling on that Jesus keep meet me right here and it's like literally meet me in this moment of brokenness like I don't want to be that person and so I this is where I think. Yeah, christians have an advantage you have the holy spirit living inside of you rely on that spirit like rely on the holy spirit precisely in the moment where sin you know seems to be getting the best of you and I think this is what Paul does Paul's just acknowledging. There's a battle raging not paul's not saying throw in the towel and do.
49:48.90
Jeremy
Every sinful thought that crosses your mind. He's just saying there are times where it's like why did I do that it's like well cause I had this other thought and really want to do that but I did it you know and again that is this constant battle that even if you give your life to Jesus you're still going to have to do with that battle.
50:04.14
forestandtrees
Yeah, man that that's so interesting like especially your first quote of saying you are not your thoughts. You're the observer of your thoughts it. It kind of made me think about the arguments against free will right from. From atheists who say like you don't have control over what's the next thought that's going to come into your head. Do you know you know what? I mean? yeah.
50:25.37
Jeremy
Correct which I I agree with you don't what you do have control of is what you do with the thoughts which thoughts you dwell on which thoughts you act on and so that's why again I run into this conversation all the time raising kids. Because you know they're constantly bombarddied with all these messages and some of them are like why did I think about that or you know and it's like relax like just because a thought is there is does not define you and I think some christians and you know think Andrew Farley is hitting on the head. How could I even think this.
50:47.10
forestandtrees
Who.
50:57.27
Jeremy
You know and then it's like we go down this shame road and it's like that is not of God that that's what Satan does Satan loves to get you. You know, accusing yourself.
51:03.34
forestandtrees
See you would say that's so would you say that's like the explanation for where these thoughts come from they like they come from the demonic or something like that or is that.
51:12.46
Jeremy
I think they can I think also it's just the result of living in a world that has free will right? We're presented with options all the time and so you know I suppose if I could live in like a bubble and all i. All my you know input was only Jesus related input then sure like I have less other thoughts I don't think they'd go away. They might decrease but I live in a world where you know I'm seeing ads for this and that and I live in the messiness of the world with.
51:41.41
forestandtrees
Ah.
51:49.25
Jeremy
Relationships and free will of my own and free will of other people and like all this there's just all these things going on all the time that you have to navigate and if you decide hey I want to be a Christian It doesn't separate you from the world and from everything else going on.
52:03.62
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I guess just I don't know as I've been thinking about this question and trying to think about how to talk about it. It. It makes me think of like you know where where do we place some spiritual warfare in. Like modern society because I feel like um I don't know for for whatever reason when people talk about like god told me to do this or the holy spirit spoke to me to me like I feel like yeah that seems reasonable. You know like I want to take them at their word but whenever someone says like angels and demons are are fighting and that's what makes me. Do something. It seems nutty to me like it seems less plausible and I don't know if that's kind of just like a cultural thing I mean one thought I had is like because I feel like demons have been such a kind of god of the gaps type explanation right? like we used to think it was demons that like caused Epilepsy and caused people f seizures. And there's all kinds of things that like we used to think we're we're demons that have been like now explained by natural causes. Ah and and it just it just seems so clear to me how like yeah people want to do bad things and it seems like very easy for us to like anthropomorphize our own emotions. And say like you know it's it's not me who wants to eat the hot dog. It's it's the demon within me that's you know, shoving that hot dog in my face.
53:22.80
Jeremy
Right? So here's okay so I think that's a great topic. So the spiritual warfare I do believe in spiritual warfare I Also agree with what you're saying that it can get really weird really quick and what I would say if anything I think Christians give too much power to evil.
53:34.76
forestandtrees
Um.
53:41.90
Jeremy
And here's a very practical way this happens so we'll say things like um, you know Jesus spoke to me or I was praying and then I heard this answer from god right? That's all that language is very normal for a christian to say but then notice that a christian will often say yeah and then I felt like satan told me to do this or that.
53:54.42
forestandtrees
Um.
54:01.57
Jeremy
And what they're saying is they they give Satan the same ability to speak in our minds or in our hearts that we would attribute to God Satan is not God's equal. So God this is where I would say your view of God matters because I would say God has the ability.
54:06.85
forestandtrees
Mother.
54:18.90
Jeremy
To get in your head and speak to you satan does not have that ability I don't think Satan's created right that. So if if satan can do that then any angel can do that.
54:21.83
forestandtrees
Yeah, people is there is there Biblical sorry is there biblical backing for that because that's something I've heard a lot of pastors say like very definitively like Satan can't read your mind Satan can't enter your thoughts like that they say like it's a fact like like we've proven this. But. Is there like a bible verse that that comes from or why do why? do pastors always say that.
54:42.72
Jeremy
No, and I think well because I think it's more of a logical what we're doing is we're we're making satan god's peer and so we're saying all the things god can do satan can do but just does the bad version of them right? and I just think it's a logical like no like Satan is created.
54:51.96
forestandtrees
Um, okay.
55:01.86
Jeremy
Satan is not you know, take the omnis omniscient you know omnipotent you know omnipresent satan is not those things like those are traits that we think of as a god why do we think satan is those things when Satan is a created being that so that would be and again.
55:05.24
forestandtrees
Oh.
55:18.94
Jeremy
Even angel studies gets weird as I understand it and again there will be christians who would disagree with this. There are 3 archangels as Lucifer Michael and Gabriel okay Lucifer goes bad. You're left with two good ones left.
55:20.29
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
55:30.42
forestandtrees
Um.
55:34.86
Jeremy
We don't say things like and then Gabriel was speaking in my mind yesterday or you know Michael came into my heart and so that would be so weird like christians don't talk like that because we acknowledge no those are angels. They don't have the ability there god created them. They're not god. But somehow we say Lucifer this third one he has all of god's powers too because he went bad and that's why I just go no like he like and I would even say this I believe because of logic Lucifer can only be in 1 place at 1 time does that not just like.
56:06.66
forestandtrees
M.
56:11.72
Jeremy
That fact alone diminish The scariness of evil.
56:15.40
forestandtrees
Yeah I don't know I mean I you know to to I mean you know to me it kind of feels like we're talking about dungeons and dragons right now. But I mean yeah, keep going.
56:17.34
Jeremy
Wow, You're not sold on that argument.
56:25.82
Jeremy
Okay, that's that's fine. Ah I yeah I'm not the you know more progressive Christians Maybe than me would dismiss Angels and demons I'm not there I think they're real I I do agree with you that I think a lot of what they called.
56:34.00
forestandtrees
M.
56:40.87
Jeremy
Demon possession. You know in the scriptures we might attribute to mental illness or other things today but to write off the whole thing I would say you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater like why'd you write off everything isn't there some element of this we could keep and I would say yeah yeah I think I think there are angels. And if there are angels I think there are demons and you know I just think we get weird with that and we we give satan way too much credit and so I think the flip side is you have to say none of this exists. You know there is no evil there is no angels there. You know which I'm gonna go i.
57:14.40
forestandtrees
Ah.
57:16.95
Jeremy
You know if you can make sense of the world and say there's not a presence of evil then you have more imagination than I do I can't make sense of that I think Evil is very real. Um.
57:24.97
forestandtrees
It. It's making me think of the ghost hunter shows I normally don't watch the discovery channel. But as as we mentioned in our recent bonus episode I was I was hang I'm ah out with my wife in the hospital for a week and a half so cable Tv was always on so we watched a lot of those like goat.
57:39.90
Jeremy
Wow, You're deep in the ghost right now huh.
57:42.51
forestandtrees
Yeah, those ghost hunter shows on the discovery channel you know where they have like the the heat tracking cameras and they have microphones and oh my gosh just it's just the worst television I've ever seen. You know it's like the it's I was the whole time I was thinking about. This is how you take like 5 minutes worth of content and try to stretch it out to 22 minutes and then throw in some commercial breaks to fill it a half hour it's just like nothing is going on. It made me think of like what why aren't people doing these kinds of tests to have the holy spirit like talk to them. You know like have the holy spirit if if you're there. Ah you know. Make this door creak or or make the temperature in the room go up or something like that. Yeah.
58:16.63
Jeremy
Right? right? So yeah I I think ghosts it's a whole different subject I would well I would not put them in the same because I I don't think ghosts and I think I would agree with you.
58:28.42
forestandtrees
Ghosts are different than demons.
58:35.98
Jeremy
I'd have a high skepticism on ghost sightings and all of that I'm not I'm not at a place where I want to say yeah demons aren't real and all this is a you know a hoax or part of a story. No I think they are and I think that there is you know forces of evil I just think if you're a Christian and you're.
58:38.85
forestandtrees
Um.
58:55.37
Jeremy
Thinking through this Satan is not God's peer and so just because God can do something I would not and I think what happens is is you think a negative thought or a sinful thought and we attribute that to Satan's in my head I'll say no, that's not Satan in your head That's just you had a thought that you.
58:59.50
forestandtrees
Um.
59:09.59
forestandtrees
Ah.
59:15.18
Jeremy
Recognized was not a healthy thought everybody has those like welcome welcome to being human. But I think Christian Spiritualized it go oh Satan's in my head I gotta fight him. It's like no, it's not safe. That's just you having a thought fight the thought like just decide.
59:17.15
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
59:31.80
Jeremy
Like you're the observer of your thought like I'm not choosing that thought I'm not dwelling on that thought that thought's not who I want to be so again I don't feel shame over my thoughts I let them go like that's not who I want to be like that's you know that thought crossed my mind I don't choose it today and I don't need to attribute it to satan.
59:40.75
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's that's very zen of you to to observe a thought and just let it pass on. Yeah yeah, absolutely.
59:50.93
Jeremy
The buddhist taught me that.
59:57.24
forestandtrees
All right cool I mean I appreciate I Appreciate the the part of your answer in terms of you saying like no Christians can't get off the hook and I honestly I don't feel like not like that many Christians have used that line at this point it seems a little bit I don't know outdated or something. But. Yeah I don't know it's It's just it's interesting to think about how culturally some of these ideas have have stuck around some of these biblical ideas I mean in terms of um God But like Angels and demons seem a little bit but I don't know just spookier like less less popularly embraced anyway.
01:00:32.67
Jeremy
So do you want to lower your 90% after my answer or what.
01:00:32.89
forestandtrees
And our current society.
01:00:39.20
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, yeah, sure I mean I'll I'll agree with our listeners I'll bring it to the 60% or so yeah in terms of in terms of the demonology. Yeah I guess we're different. We have different perspectives.
01:00:41.56
Jeremy
Yes, see guys. We're not the same. We're not the same.
01:00:57.20
Jeremy
Um, okay, you're not gonna be able to quote demons now on your answer. So here's here's where we're gonna we were all building to this moment I Want to know you obviously lived in the world where you know you were you were told about the sinful nature. You battled it.
01:01:02.61
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:01:12.91
Jeremy
You know you try to be a good christian and and do all those same things. But now you're not, you're not you don't consider yourself christian anymore. You're not you know, actively following Jesus so I'm curious. How is your perspective changed on this. Do you still think of this nature inside of you like a good nature because. What would you attribute that to if not to god right? and then how can you have a sinful nature if you don't have a god nature I guess so tell me how does a skeptic slash atheist slash whatever you want to call yourself How do you make sense out of this topic about these these desires that you know are not good.
01:01:44.22
forestandtrees
Ah.
01:01:50.26
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean that's that's a great question I would say first off I think um, the term sin is still useful for christians and non-christians alike I just want to say that because I've definitely heard a lot of like atheists like thinkers and speakers. Say like don't talk to me about sin because sin is sin is meaningless if you're not a christian it's just like this religious construct. But so I would just say like it for me it like it hasn't changed all that much because I would say like the word sin just means like doing bad things generally and of course like there's there's a whole debate about like. What's considered good. What's considered bad but you have that debate like whether you're a christian or not like christians don't agree on what to call a sin either like for example, I would say like eating animal products is a sin but I know like most people don't agree with that you know and there's a lot of you know christians might say like. Sex outside of marriage is a sin like I don't necessarily think that anymore you know that this is something that I think ah like probably the most things that have shifted for me since since deconversion I guess is a lot of like the purity culture sexual ethics stuff. You know, like there was a time when I was a christian and thought um. It's okay to be Christian and homosexual but you know of course that's that's a big divide you know sex outside of marriage whether you can get ah divorced and remarried like we talked talked about earlier in the episode but in terms of where it comes from I think just like the basic idea of like human selfishness can be explained.
01:03:22.48
forestandtrees
Evolutionarily right? Like we're just we're programmed to be out for ourselves and try to survive and we'll we'll take care of ourselves first and then our loved ones second and then everyone else gets the scraps like ah I don't know if you've seen the last of us or I mean basically any kind of post apocalyptic show. Where it shows like once things go downhill and society becomes. We lose some of the creature comforts of society. You know it's every man for themselves and we just eat each other so I don't know to to me I feel like you can explain that naturalistically you don't need like ah Satan and his. Demons to explain like why we do bad things to each other does that make sense. Yeah, and in terms of like where the root of sin comes from if you want to use the term sin. Ah yeah I think you know sin leads the selfishness comes from this.
01:04:05.99
Jeremy
Yeah, so you're you're chalking it up to evolution.
01:04:21.18
forestandtrees
This evolutionary bias of you know why do we want to fend for ourselves. Yeah.
01:04:27.15
Jeremy
I I am more surprised that you you still find it helpful to use the word sin because I think that like that doesn't seem like obvious to me.
01:04:32.62
forestandtrees
Yeah, and again it might It's what's kind of a I Guess it's kind of a definition. You know it depends on how you would define it I don't know like what's your what's your definition of Sin I should say oh that's the Arts return.
01:04:46.97
Jeremy
Missing the Mark lots. But yes.
01:04:51.91
forestandtrees
Maybe it's just like how how ah I was brought up you know of like I just you know of course I used to believe in god so I used to think like sin is anything that like disobeys god's law. But for the most in terms of yeah, that's true. The law freedom in Christ maybe um.
01:05:03.90
Jeremy
That's very old testament of you did you not hear verse 6 Yes.
01:05:10.40
forestandtrees
Ah, what should I say what? what shall I say to this the I think in terms of ethics and morality whether you're Christian or not most of the things are the same. You know like whether you're Christian or not I think we'd agree. It's a sin to harm innocent people right? like it's a sin. To be selfish and hoard all the resources. It's a sin to take advantage of people and abuse them. You know, like whether you're a christian or not you would agree with these kinds of things and I don't I don't know like it's it's an interesting definitional thing like I said a lot of atheists would reject the term sin and think it's just like religious dogma. But maybe it's just because it's baked into how I was raised but to me. Yeah, it's just sin is just doing bad stuff. Do.
01:05:55.85
Jeremy
Um I would agree but where I would disagree is I don't think you get that level of everyone agrees across the board. The way you're saying it because even like the hoarding resources. So many people hoard resources and we call them. We call them success and we want to be like them.
01:06:04.85
forestandtrees
Um.
01:06:07.10
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:06:14.28
Jeremy
And you think about people who have you know think of like Jeff Bezos and his new yacht I don't know if you saw his new yacht and people are commenting on it and it's like that's the definition of having absurdly more than you even know what to do with and it's just you know it's it's ah it's got a boat for his boat.
01:06:20.18
forestandtrees
Um.
01:06:33.45
Jeremy
And he lands his helicopter onto it. Just you know it's like yeah we all like that that would be awesome to have but it's the definition of an absurd amount of hoarding right? and we don't We don't collectively look at that and go Oh no, we look collectively and we go I wish I had that so I don't.
01:06:41.80
forestandtrees
Ryan right.
01:06:50.84
forestandtrees
Do we I don't know I feel like most people are I feel like most people are aware of this right? like um something I just saw recently was like it came out that um, a bunch of the Hill Song pastors had their own private Jets you know and that that article is making the rounds and I think like yeah, could.
01:06:52.11
Jeremy
I Don't think there's this morality across the board.
01:07:01.13
Jeremy
Oh.
01:07:07.30
forestandtrees
Collectively as a society most of us recognize. Yeah, it's not right for pastors to have private Jets like we realize that that's like an obvious example of corruption right.
01:07:17.39
Jeremy
Right? But because of what the pastors claim they believe. So if you don't claim to believe that why? why are you held to that standard. So what's wrong with Jeff Bezos acquiring more and more and more.
01:07:29.10
forestandtrees
I Think like for for himself and then his own within his own mind. He probably is able to rationalize it because I don't know if you were to ask him directly. He would come up with some kind of explanation of oh you don't get a you know it's It's not so easy to be me, you know it's It's tough I need I need some way to relax I don't know.
01:07:47.14
Jeremy
But that's but that's my point I don't think he thinks he's sinning by what he's doing and I.
01:07:48.54
forestandtrees
But um, yeah I guess you could say like with just capitalism right is just fair and Square he he yeah you could't you could argue he earned it you know or you could say like he was in the right place at the right time he got the dot com He he did the work to you know.
01:07:55.72
Jeremy
He earned it.
01:08:05.77
forestandtrees
Worked smarter not harder to build his empire. Ah, you know obviously like whether Capitalism is is right? or wrong is is like a debated thing that not everyone agrees on. But yeah I'm sure that's how he would explain it right.
01:08:20.28
Jeremy
I yeah I'm just um I'm going back to this is not this is less than 90% agreement of you and I here because I do not think there is a shared morality ah across the board.
01:08:29.92
forestandtrees
Right? No Well I get no I agree. That's what I was saying earlier was um when I was saying like my definition of Sin is just doing something That's bad, but that's kind of a meaningless definition because no one agrees about Morality and so and but then ah I was wanting to say that. Christians don't agree either like if you ask Christians about divorce and remarriage Some people will land differently than others as an example, right.
01:08:55.83
Jeremy
Yeah, you're say I'm confused which is your argument because you've said that. But then you also said whether you're a Christian or you're not a Christian we still agree that these things are wrong.
01:09:05.15
forestandtrees
So well I guess more more basic things like okay maybe hoarding resources was a bad example, you're saying ah okay like okay that you shouldn't harm innocents right? You shouldn't hurt.
01:09:12.93
Jeremy
Um, because I don't think that's a basic agreed upon is wrong.
01:09:18.66
Jeremy
Murder I think murders as close to maybe we're gonna get as like a universal that's not good, but people saw Murder so tricky.
01:09:21.90
forestandtrees
Shouldn't murder other people. Yeah, yeah, exactly right? And like I mean well that and of course that's you know, a very obvious criticism of the bible that we're all tired of hearing at this point but like. According to like universally accepted general Morality like God is kind of a moral monster in the old testament. So yeah because he he harms a lot of innocence if if we take the text at face value. Yeah.
01:09:44.32
Jeremy
O.
01:09:50.39
Jeremy
Sure Well I would say most most expressions of God throughout the world are that way because I think and and I would say this even of christianity. But I think it it reveals far more of humanity making God in our image rather than us being made in the image of God because.
01:09:54.93
forestandtrees
Boom.
01:10:09.35
forestandtrees
Oh.
01:10:09.57
Jeremy
<unk> like that. So We assume God would be like that too and you know even like a lot of the other creation accounts. You know, ah like God's tired when he's done cause like we would be Tired. You know its like it's just Interesting. You look at some other words like that's us projecting on the God of like this is how we would be if we were God and you know. You had all power. What would you do with it and yeah I think I think it's interesting, but ah, yeah, the real the real kicker there is that you still use the word Sin I'm gonna take that one now I was I'm a process that yeah, that's interesting.
01:10:30.88
forestandtrees
Yeah, here to take that as okay did I did I not give a a very coherent answer I I'm sensing some confusion from you. Okay.
01:10:45.29
Jeremy
I was a little confused I feel like you argued both sides of the coin a bit I I think I know you land more on the other one which I think I would agree with that. But um I guess where I would maybe disagree and see if we're saying the same thing.
01:10:57.87
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:11:00.87
Jeremy
I do think if you say I'm an atheist your sense of what it let's say you know what what 100 things would you say are sin and if you said I'm a christian what 100 things would you say or sin I don't think you'd get a necessarily a ton of overlap on those 2 lists I think there'd be some.
01:11:15.89
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:11:19.41
Jeremy
But I think I would say this way if there's not a difference like christians were doing it wrong like if you if you believing in Jesus doesn't affect at all how you see the world. Ah yeah, like what's the point like where this isn't real. This isn't.
01:11:23.41
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:11:37.77
Jeremy
Anything of meaning and so it might be true and maybe you are right? But if it is I think it's more of a criticism against christianity.
01:11:42.91
forestandtrees
Yeah, with that. Yeah, that is a criticism against christianity right of like so that's why I brought up the kind of the purity culture stuff is like I feel like that's that's probably where there's the most clear distinction from what I can see of like Christians are much more likely. To get married and start a family younger and not have premarital sex not cohabitate with their romantic partners. That's something that's changed for me and that like I no longer think that that's wrong in and of itself the way I used to when I was a Christian but in terms of. Social Justice issues and like helping those in need I don't see a ton of difference in terms I don't see Christians being more generous and more like giving of their time and caring more about social Justice issues and often I see the opposite. Yeah. Speaking very generally painting with a very large broad brush because I know there are a lot of Christians who do all kinds of charitable work and and that's great. But yeah.
01:12:44.45
Jeremy
Well I think just like anything it it matters which christians you hang out with and which which christians you're analyzing and you know or which atheists you're analyzing because there are good examples of both camps and bad examples of both camps and the broad brush breaks down you know, depending on cause I yeah I know.
01:12:58.18
forestandtrees
Mm.
01:13:03.77
Jeremy
Thankfully I know a lot of Christians who I would say are some of the most generous people on the planet. But that's because I I know a lot of them. You know I also know a lot of christians that are not ah but I yeah I think we agree I think my argument is just if you are going to be a Christian There should be things that you go.
01:13:13.32
forestandtrees
Um.
01:13:23.40
Jeremy
Okay, now Jesus gets to determine this for me and I follow him not just what I think is right or wrong.
01:13:26.71
forestandtrees
Yeah I guess maybe part of why I brought up the the hoarding and wealth thing and like we can wrap this up because this this conversation is going long and ethics is a big topic obviously but I mean that's something that like I like about the bible and jesus teaching like Jesus seems like. Very very clear on his preaching against the acclamation of wealth against hoarding and against like rich people just taking whatever they can and not sharing it with those in need you know like I think that's that's cool that.
01:13:59.37
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.
01:14:03.39
forestandtrees
I mean I guess it's sad that it's still relevant today. It's still a problem today. But that's that's something I really admire about Jesus's teachings is that you know he he saw this as an issue that would be possibly with us forever.
01:14:15.59
Jeremy
Well, but even to use your previous answer. It goes against our evolutionary desires right? So if I'm if I'm just looking out for me I'm gonna accumulate everything I can because that makes my reality stronger and.
01:14:22.54
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, right? I'm saying like nature nature is evil in a sense like it's red and tooth and claw like that. Our natural state is to be selfish and sinful. And I think like it's it's up to us to transcend that you know like to to bring to bring in veganism Again, you know that's that's a big argument people will say is like well you know lions eat the antelope. So Why can't humans eat cows. And yeah I would say that just because.
01:14:41.67
Jeremy
Yes.
01:14:57.89
forestandtrees
We can ah kill and eat an animal doesn't doesn't mean we should if we can get our nutrients elsewhere without causing unnecessary suffering.
01:15:07.13
Jeremy
So you're you're just really working veganism into this episode I feel like you should have had a disclaimer of hey I'm gonna keep hitting veganism today.
01:15:11.41
forestandtrees
It's I know I apologize for talking. Ah I I talk about it too much I admit it's you know like my joke is that um, after I left christianity I had to become vegan so I could find something else to be dogmatic and preachy about but it's it's something I think about because it's it's like the most. It's the the most significant like tangible like ethical change in my life. You know it's like relatively new to me because I've only been doing this a couple years and I don't know I mean it's fascinating because it's like like I said I I I would say like yeah eating meat is a sin but what does that mean that like. 99% of my friends are perpetually living in sin like should I just be perpetually judging them and lecturing them all the time should I be lecturing you on this podcast for hours on end Jeremy. What do you think? Um, ah well, okay, that's.
01:16:02.26
Jeremy
I Feel lectured right now.
01:16:10.73
forestandtrees
Probably a good place to end it right? There's you know there's a lot to talk about with like I said at ethics is a very big topic. Maybe I bit off more than I can chew I could chew this one.
01:16:14.72
Jeremy
Um, on that note.
01:16:20.15
Jeremy
It is.
01:16:25.71
forestandtrees
Ah, but yeah I I appreciate you sticking with me Jeremy it's we we all sin you know, maybe when you were eating your hot dog you were sending in more ways than what who's to say all right? Well done.
01:16:28.80
Jeremy
We all got sin Jeff we can agree on that right.
01:16:35.87
Jeremy
Who all painful so painful.
01:16:43.19
forestandtrees
Yeah, that thank you guys for listening. Ah, hope you know hopefully you learned something. Hopefully if if you're listening to this and you're divorced person. Hopefully you feel less judged. You know it's it's cool. Yeah, seen seems like half a lifetime ago.
01:16:55.21
Jeremy
Was that was that the same episode feel like we've talked about so much today. Yeah.
01:17:02.85
forestandtrees
And ah yeah, maybe all Christians should go vegan Who's to say all right talk to you later.
01:17:05.59
Jeremy
Wow.