Romans 6 - 10% Different

We’re back after an unexpected break. Jef complains about how repetitive Paul is getting, we disagree about how similar or different we are, and we dive deeper into the problem of slavery in the Bible. 

Topics
Are Jeremy and Jef so different?
Is Paul Speaking literally or metaphorically?
Did Jef miss out on a deeper version of Christianity?
Why is the Bible still okay with Slavery?

Media referenced
The Forgotten Creed by Steven J. Patterson
Hail Satan? Documentary

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Email us at ​​forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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Transcript

00:00.00
Jeremy
Hey, everybody we're back after a bit of a delay if you're wondering why? Well we've got a bonus episode for you that goes all into that. So if you skip the bonus episode because it was not a chapter of romans then you missed the explanation for that. So we're just gonna give you a teaser here. You're gonna have to go listen to that find out why there's sequentially a break. But if you're following along later. You're just going to see Romans 5 roman 6 Maybe you don't care. But as always my name is Jeremy joined today by my friend. Jeff.

00:34.32
forestandtrees
You're gonna have to serve somebody that it's so it's a wine from a Bob Dylan song from his um is his christian era in the late 70 s early eighty s

00:37.32
Jeremy
What.

00:50.28
forestandtrees
He's ah he's saying like you have to serve somebody. You know, maybe the devil maybe the lord I thought this was kind of the the theme of this whole chapter about like are you going to be a slave to sin or a slave to god um, and and I know what you're thinking Jeremy like.

00:59.79
Jeremy
I see I see now where you're going with that. Okay.

01:07.45
forestandtrees
Didn't you already quote Bob Dylan just a couple episodes ago. Why why are you repeating yourself? Well Paul is repeating himself in this very chapter.

01:09.89
Jeremy
I was thinking that? Yeah okay I see what you're doing here. You're just taking some liberties because Paul does.

01:20.77
forestandtrees
Yeah, this is just this is just a random gripe about this chapter you know, like when when I was trying to come up with questions I was like he's this is just so repetitive like have we exhausted the format of this show because have we run out of things to talk about this is.

01:28.55
Jeremy
Her.

01:35.90
Jeremy
You think we've exhausted Paul we've we've ah wow, there's a hot take.

01:38.62
forestandtrees
I think Paul's exhausted himself. Okay, let me read verses 1 and 2 Well well then should we keep on sinning so that god can show us more and more if his wonderful grace of course not skip ahead to verse 15 Well then since god's grace has set us free from the law does that mean we can go on sinning.

01:56.96
Jeremy
Sounds familiar. You know it's okay as a communicator to repeat a point if you want people to really resonate with that I mean I'm just saying you can you can repeat things more than once and.

01:57.00
forestandtrees
Of course, not the man. The man is repeating himself and I'm worried about him.

02:10.82
forestandtrees
That's that's true. That's a good point.

02:16.66
Jeremy
You know I know we assume that just because we have covered a topic once on an episode that we have definitively nailed it. But maybe you know you and I take a few passes at something before we feel like we actually get it. Maybe maybe we're like Paul we need to come out at a few different times.

02:34.75
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's true. That's true. We actually have ah a question that we kind of just like dipped our toes in a few weeks ago that we get to explore a little bit deeper today. So that's exciting.

02:41.72
Jeremy
There you go was it is exciting. Well today we're gonna explore whether Jeff and I actually disagree with each other as much as we claim it's gonna be It's gonna be good. We're gonna ask if believers have an advantage over sin. Gonna ask Jeff to dive into his version of christianity and to repeat ourselves Jeff is back with more slavery questions. He just can't get enough before we get to those I'd like to pick a verse out of chapter 6 that I find moving set the tone. Set the stage for us and then it'll all be downhill from there Roman Six four Paul says just as christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the father now we also may live new lives mm.

03:23.90
forestandtrees
Perfect.

03:39.76
Jeremy
Give me some of that Jeff yeah.

03:41.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, soak up that new life. How's it feel. It's beautiful. Ah.

03:42.72
Jeremy
New Life raised from the dead by the glorious power of God I Love it all right? Let's get into it. What do you got.

03:57.98
forestandtrees
Ah, so I thought um actually it'd be fun to open with ah a comment we got from an email ah an email we got from a listener. Um, named Ken who had had some questions for us. Maybe talk about maybe to question like once again, the legitimacy of this show.

04:05.24
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

04:15.84
Jeremy
The very foundation of the forest and the trees is on the line Ken is going right to the roots. What's this part of it because this is a long email was good.

04:17.25
forestandtrees
And the concept. Yeah yeah, the trees are being pulled up by the roots. All right? Yeah so here's here's Ken's comments last question I've continued. Yeah yeah, long long email but he had a great question in there I've continued to listen to the podcast and really enjoyed them. As the 2 of you have discussed various topics I'm finding that you and Jeremy don't disagree as much as I would have thought that got me thinking if you agree on about 90% of scripture. Why are you an atheist guys asking me because he knows it's me running the email and jeremy a believer is. Is that 10% really that big of a difference for either of you to believe or Jeremy not to believe what do you think? Jeremy are we 90% similar is the 10% really that big of a deal.

05:01.67
Jeremy
Um, should we call this show the 10% just rename it welcome to the 10% where we talk about a sliver of things we disagree with what's interesting.

05:11.83
forestandtrees
Yeah, what.

05:17.12
Jeremy
All right here's my hot take I like this question a lot and thank you Ken for for for challenging the premise a little bit I think we can handle it here's what I'm going to say Jeff I think we disagree on far more than Ken gives us credit for. But we're kind to each other so it's misleading That's my this is my hot take. Okay I think you and I probably disagree with each other on far more than 90%. It's this that in the way that we disagree we acknowledge like if you make a point that I disagree with.

05:39.69
forestandtrees
Um, but.

05:56.31
Jeremy
You will make it in such a way that I can say oh I understand how you got there I understand why that makes sense to you and you usual do this vice versa with me like oh yeah I understand how you are explaining it that way that doesn't mean we agree it just means we're acknowledging you know. Relationally acknowledging? yeah that that there's legitimacy of thought there which I would say in a lot of the way we watch people disagree in public and certainly politicians are guilty of this There is not a kindness in the way that they disagree. So. If we take that as the norm of like oh that's what it looks like to disagree. Then yeah, you're gonna expect that but I would like to think and maybe I'm delusional I would like to think that we actually do agree on far more than that. Um, we just we're just kind and you know we often acknowledge why the other person's argument makes sense. It doesn't mean that we hold that same view ourself now at the end of the day I would say why because you know basically why am I not an atheist and why are you not a believer I would say I'm living to follow Jesus Christ and you are not and while that may be 10 % of the things we talk about or.

07:00.72
forestandtrees
Ah.

07:09.65
Jeremy
10 % of things that they sound like that's a monumental that is christianity to me right? like it's it's not like a sliver like oh and my beliefs about Jesus like no my belief about Jesus is christianity that that's what it is to me and at at the end of the day. You are not following Jesus the way I'm following Jesus so I would say we fundamentally disagree on a lot Would you agree with my disagreement. Um.

07:38.87
forestandtrees
Wow. Ah, that's interesting I I kind of feel the opposite like I I think I mostly agree with Ken here that we are very similar. Um I mean just we're both just the fact that like we're both like straight white dudes coming from the same like evangelical background. Um, we're both geriatric millennials just like desperately trying to hang on to the social media empire and build this podcast brand. Um, we're both like I feel like yeah, you know obviously like theologically we have different views of Jesus but I you know I think that I'm still like. Ah, fan of Jesus in my way and I think like we have like similar interpretations of a lot of Jesus' ' teachings about like like both of us are passionate about Nonviolence I would say you know which is something that is I'd say not not necessarily a popular viewpoint that that um everyone is a fan of like.

08:33.10
Jeremy
Sure.

08:36.73
forestandtrees
Christian or non-christian um, and you know just like you know, biologically speaking we're like 99% the same so you know and we're we're all just people here you know and we're all just we're all lost and we're all like drunkly stumbling home trying to. Find our way in this confusing world.

08:55.41
Jeremy
So the fact that you disagreed with my answer is proving my point you didn't agree with me, you disagreed with me so there we go. There's so many things that you and I don't agree on but here let me let me Okay, let me offer it this way I'll illustrate this because I had an experience recently.

08:58.91
forestandtrees
Oh no shoot.

09:14.94
Jeremy
And I was thinking about thinking about Ken's question and then I had those experience and I was like okay this to me is it. Ah I was invited to speak at a pastor's gallery and so this was a room of lead pastors. You know in a community and I was invited to share.

09:26.90
forestandtrees
Um.

09:33.73
Jeremy
You know some things that I've been learning in spaces like this where you know I'm reading the bible with someone who doesn't necessarily agree with the bible anymore and you know I do a lot of stuff with commun and wineco where I'm hanging out people who either don't go to church or used to go to church or not interested in church. You know for a variety of reasons and so. Trying to bring like those perspectives of like what do I think that pastors of church today should be aware of it's I was kind of bringing it and you would say in that room right? like agreement wise I should be able to agree with easily 90% of what those guys agree with I mean like we're all I mean real similar. We've all either been lead passors or our lead passers. We've gone to seminary. You know all these things what we believe all I mean like on paper it lines up and what I'll say is on paper I agree with them.

10:14.62
forestandtrees
Um.

10:30.64
Jeremy
Far more than I agree with you idea wise right? now not background and age and all the things you mentioned, but just if we were like hey put the things that you believe on one side of paper and things you don't believe you know I would line up more with that room. But here's what I would tell you we got to a Q and a section.

10:38.19
forestandtrees
Um.

10:47.68
Jeremy
And it didn't go well with a couple of the pastors who really did not like what I was trying to challenge them with and got very defensive and I sat there listening to that and I I had the thought I do agree this is where I'm gonna I'm gonna bring Ken back in I would say depending on how we frame this. I would say I agree with you Jeff more than I agreed with those 2 pastors but it wasn't ideas. It was more of the posture right? like they did not have a posture of kindness. They did not have a posture of teachability. They did not you know. It was not an openness like let's engage and like let's learn. It was very defensive very much my way or the highway and I just do not resonate with that and it reminds me I read this recently as quote from a guy named Dante Stewart he said the greatest threat to christianity is not secularity.

11:25.18
forestandtrees
Ah.

11:44.20
Jeremy
It is certainty when you are so convinced that you are right? then you will create all types of enemies and cut yourself off from all the ways. God is active in another person's experience A love this quote that really we want to say the atheists.

11:58.26
forestandtrees
And.

12:03.70
Jeremy
And their agenda is the thing to be afraid of christians I'm going to say the thing to be afraid of is your sense of certainty that you are right and that anyone who sees it differently than you is your enemy and Jeff what was you know, made abundantly clear to me as I was thinking about. Our podcast thinking about Ken's question is I was arguing in that room with people who were certain it was their way or the highway and so any contrary view was not welcome and I I was caricatureized as their enemy in that conversation. The irony is I have never felt from you that I am your enemy because you and I you know don't agree on things. But the reason why is because I don't think you or I hold our beliefs with certainty as if this is the only way and anyone who disagrees with this is a moron. You know we we just. We we hold him differently so I think it depends on how we frame Ken's point if if we're talking about the posture in which we engage other people and other ideas you and I are very similar and I would say I would agree with Ken if we're actually talking about what we believe at the end of the day I think we're radically different.

13:03.99
forestandtrees
Um.

13:17.52
Jeremy
Even though we could find things like nonviolence we'd say we gri. But here's what I would tell you if I didn't believe in Jesus I wouldn't believe in nonviolence so like even that well yeah, we both agree that I want. The only reason I believe that is because of Jesus if I were in your shoes I would not believe it. So.

13:26.12
forestandtrees
Um.

13:36.90
Jeremy
I would say even that is like yeah we agree, but we only agree because Jesus got me there not because of the way that you got there probably.

13:43.60
forestandtrees
okay okay I take it all back to make sure you make sure you stick with Jesus in that case, nobody wants to see another another guy snap over the edge right on that.

13:54.51
Jeremy
Oh I'm good I'm like a snap I'm just trying to illustrate I think you and I disagree more than it seems because of the the tone in which we have these conversations.

14:02.52
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, no I Yeah I Love what you said there. That's all of that is a really good point I think that's that's very true that um, I'm kind of like the the point of like what we're trying to. Get at with this show is like a sense of like having a conversation not a debate and having a sense of openness like where you know where I'm coming from is like yeah I Ah sort of rejected the bible in a way but I'm like wanted to go back and explore and be like you know there must be some good ideas in here. There must be something that's like worth hanging onto and. And reaping some ancient wisdom from or something and I think similarly, you are very open to like my criticisms of the Bible. Um and saying like you know I'll say like this passage of the bible doesn't make sense for this reason and you'll often kind of acknowledge like yeah I see where you come from with that. Or maybe you'll even agree of like yeah I don't even like this passage. Ah, not not to put words in your mouth you can speak for yourself. But yeah, yeah, ah well something something else I was I forgot to mention was some of the I feel like maybe some of the more superficial things are are ways were more.

15:01.90
Jeremy
There's there's verses I'm not crazy about yeah.

15:13.11
forestandtrees
Different versus our our views on the bible or religion like you know in terms of like our opinions about whether or not Disneyland is the best way to spend a weekend in California you know Jeremy and are very different. Ah but it same.

15:24.33
Jeremy
And that's more than 10 percent I mean my views of Disney I'm passionate about those.

15:29.11
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's it's less than than ten percent of your life. But it's like a hundred percent of your weekend. So you know it just depends on what what the scale is there. But.

15:39.75
Jeremy
My my wife and I literally talk about after our after our kids are grown. Okay, they're out of the house. We're empty nesters. You know our time is back to being ours. We're going to be the people that have annual passes and fly over to Disney.

15:55.87
forestandtrees
Oh no Disney adults. Yeah yeah I know.

15:58.26
Jeremy
Regularly. Oh yeah, oh hardcore we're just the adults now we just also bring our kids sometimes like we'll do full 2 trips as adults and it's a amazing. We love it and then our kids are like yo when do we get to go and like oh yeah, we got a all right? We'll bring you on one 2

16:14.31
forestandtrees
Does Jesus's teachings about like wealth and and empire and stuff does that ever give you pause with you know with your allegiance to the Disney brand or have you made your piece with that. What.

16:27.30
Jeremy
Wow come on. Don't you're better than that. Don't go there. Ah yeah, no as a corporation Disney's got a lot going on ah that yeah I think they can be the great uniter whether you're.

16:32.45
forestandtrees
Okay.

16:37.69
forestandtrees
Um.

16:43.15
Jeremy
Conservative or progressive. You can find something to hate about Disney. Um, yeah I'm not saying I'm like all in on everything they do I'm just saying it's it is the happiest place on earth man. Just.

16:48.10
forestandtrees
Um.

16:53.66
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean they do they do own Star Wars and you know the whole this podcast was founded on me quoting from Star Wars. So yeah, something oh man so much we have so much in common.

17:01.68
Jeremy
There you go see we're we're back to agreeing again. Gosh stop so much agreement Dang it can keep your percentages to yourself.

17:13.21
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I know it is yeah it is hard to put a a number on things and there's there's a lot of different ways you can kind of slice that question. But yeah I think that was a fun discussion all right? So let's see let's see if we can find some some more disagreement here.

17:23.67
Jeremy
I like it. Yeah I think it was good.

17:31.25
forestandtrees
In ah verse 6 where it says we know our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We're no longer slaves to sin so that this's something that I um I think about a lot with um, Paul's teaching kind of just with like. With any kind of like Christian preaching in general is like that it seems to kind of dip back and forth between um metaphor and literalness in the way that it's speaking here like saying that we're ah, let's see. We were crucified with Christ ah sin doesn't have power over us. We're no longer slaves to sin like I don't know like this whole idea like so because this happened right? like because of the crucifixion resurrection of Jesus happened apparently that was like a significant moment in history that like. Literally makes a physical difference in our lives. But like as we've talked about a bunch of times it feels like well I don't know I mean christians seem to be basically the same in terms of like as prone to sin as non-christians so I wonder like is Paul like saying something literal here like christians are literally like. Set free from the power of sin or is this more of kind of like a motivational pep talk. Ah yeah, what? What do you think about that.

18:49.70
Jeremy
Well I've I've said previously that I don't think the atheist version of me would be a better version of me and you know we've already joked about like Nonviolence like I I would go back to believing yeah use violent ends to solve your problems right.

18:58.74
forestandtrees
Um.

19:07.98
Jeremy
The only reason I don't believe that is because of who I've seen Jesus to be and the type of Kingdom Jesus invites us to be a part of so I could look at a whole bunch of things and go all right if I did it if I could remove all of my faith in Jesus all of that would it would it be a better version and I truly don't believe. It would bring out something better in me I think that your question comes down to whether or not we believe the holy spirit is real if the holy spirit is real then believers have a tremendous advantage over sin if the holy spirit's not real then this is metaphorical. Feel good language hope that you know things are different but as Paul's gonna say few chapters from now spoiler alert Romans 34 Paul writes and the holy spirit helps us in our weakness like I believe that's literally true. So. If you are living your life in submission to god and inviting the holy spirit to be your guiding force. Then yeah I think you have a tremendous advantage over sin for someone. That's gonna say I'm just gonna go do it on my own and just try to be a good person without any involvement of god and. Again I think it comes out to is the holy spirit real and if so yeah, it's a game changing difference.

20:32.88
forestandtrees
Um, okay, so so then what's what's your like explanation then for like why? Why do Christians tend to just kind of act the same or like do you feel like Christians like feel more more free or have a. I Don't know like Sin has less hold over their lives or there's something they can tap into to escape from sin.

20:50.98
Jeremy
Well, some do. But this goes back to theology. There's there is no universal Christian right? There's all sorts of different christians that believe all sorts of different versions of who Jesus is and who god is and what the bible is and and the role the holy spirit I mean. There's there's not a stereotypical token Christian that we can say yeah this person is better so I would say yeah, there's there's awful examples of christians that don't look like they're any better off when it comes to sin in their life. There's also great christians that I've met that I would say are not bound by sin the way they would be. Ah, because of the way that they they submit to god and so to me all it takes is one to demonstrate it in a different way to go. Yeah, it's real and that's what's possible and I've met plenty of them and I say yeah because of the holy spirit. Um.

21:37.44
forestandtrees
Um.

21:43.37
Jeremy
And again, that's that's the goal of my life like how do I live in submission to what God wants to do and and allow God to you know I talk often about like the fruit of the spirit. But like if the free of the spirit is becoming more and more a part of my life then Sin's gonna have less and less a hold of my life. If The Holy spirit is not doing that work and I'm not in submission and I just believe something and go live the way I want to live then? yeah I'm I'm gonna look no different which is why I think there is no one size fits all but I think if it's possible at all then that proves the point that yes, the the argument poll is making is true.

22:18.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, all all takes is 1 case you would say to.

22:23.52
Jeremy
Yeah to to illustrate the point of it's possible. Do that now again God's not coercive. So just because you say I'm a Christian doesn't mean you're fully in submission to what God wants to do in your life right? ah.

22:36.71
forestandtrees
Ah.

22:37.25
Jeremy
So you can still say I'm going to go live and sin and do what I want to do and claim Grace and play christians do but the fact that you can say hey I want to I want something different I want the holy spirit to guide me is the point I think Paul's trying to make of like you don't have to be a slave to sin anymore and maybe that's a you know a nuance that we could add to it is. You no longer have to be a slave to sin and if it said it like that you know as as opposed to like definitively we're not because there are christians who are slaves us in and so I think it's just maybe nuencing the the point Paul's making a little bit.

22:58.49
forestandtrees
Okay.

23:09.72
forestandtrees
Okay, but they do but they do have some kind of so special advantage in in some way if the whole is if the is rate sort. Okay, yeah, yeah.

23:18.53
Jeremy
If the Holy Spirit's real. Yeah, ah otherwise what's the role of the holy spirit like what's always spirit doing like I think I think Christians downplay the Holy spirit far more than we overplay it right? and.

23:31.75
forestandtrees
I mean depending on which denomination you're in. But yeah.

23:35.19
Jeremy
You know I was gonna say obviously there's like charismatics I are known for getting a little funky with the spirit but ah, but I think you know there's some beautiful expressions in that as well. You know so I don't know I think there's there's got to be more reliance on the spirit and I think if we took Paul's argument more christians would be like yeah all right? How do I how do I actually have the holy spirit guide me day to day so that sin has less hold over me and you know that's that's been something I I feel like I feel personally that sin has less of a hold on me. Because of the holy spirit then it would if I was an atheist. So.

24:13.14
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean as you've already admitted. You're you're on the cusp of violence as we speak. Don't do don't sure.

24:21.79
Jeremy
Ah I did say I personally would be involved I said I would believe that's the solution as most people in America even christians do today. Okay so I've got a related question for you on verse 7 which is kind of connected. Ah.

24:31.15
forestandtrees
Yeah.

24:36.38
Jeremy
But this this could be a little bit of a dicey question for you. We'll see. We'll see how you how you take this for 7 paul says for when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. Okay, so when we made this transition transition. We had this new thing Jeff you've shared recently that your answer to whether you feel better. After leaving the faith and basic if I understood you you said you don't really feel better or worse. Ah, and I've I've thought about that a lot like that was a really interesting insight for you to share of like yeah I just kind of feel the same as I did like not necessarily better, not necessarily worse. So here's if I have I thought about that. Thought this like it seems to me that the christianity that you believed was as you look out it now not ever a lifegiving version of christianity for you because if it was and then you left it. You would you? there'd be something missing there because you go I used to find this this life giving and now I don't but. Because it's not and you go I it's no no different really not being a christian I would say well then it seems like the version of christianity that you had was never really life giving to you to begin with which is not how I would describe my christianity. Another thing you and I disagree with so many things. Ah. So here's my question is it possible that you only experienced a small version of what christianity can be and that's your reference point for all of christianity.

26:05.51
forestandtrees
Well yeah, yes, it's possible you when you when you've questioned it and you phrased the question that way I mean sure anything's possible. Um I don't know is it likely? yeah.

26:13.10
Jeremy
Is it likely then I don't know word it How you want a word it.

26:18.21
forestandtrees
No for sure I feel like that I mean I like this question it's I've I've been thinking about it a lot. Ah for for weeks now. Um, and I feel like it's It's a little bit of the question of like well maybe you were never a real question which again like I'm I'm open to like yeah maybe I never was like it makes me think of um.

26:28.23
Jeremy
He.

26:35.83
forestandtrees
Yeah, several years ago when I worked at a church and I was kind of ah deconstructed like didn't didn't really think I believed anymore but was still kind of you know, passing as Christian I guess and we had like a staff like breakout um staff meeting breakout session where they were at they were going to ask us all individually like. Do you share your faith and if not why not and I was kind of panicked about how what am I going to say because I I mean I haven't like evangelized in years and what am I going to tell them and I was just hoping to run out the clock like maybe they won't get to me. But um, when the when the question finally came to me I said that. Um, yeah, the reason I don't share my faith is because I'm not 100 % sure that it's life changing because I've been a christian my whole life I haven't experienced life outside of christianity. Um, you know fast forward a couple years later now I have and I guess like like I said it's it's kind of the same.

27:33.74
forestandtrees
From from this side to that. But I don't know that that is something I often wonder is like is because I was like born and raised Christian. Um, even though I I feel like I had moments of like personal transformation and and personal growth and whatever throughout that time I do often wonder of like. Am I just kind of desensitized to it or like was it was it not a true conversion for me because I was so young and oppressionable and just like brought up in a christian culture. So again like I'm open to that of like maybe like you know maybe god wants me to have my time in the wilderness and experience like. The drought of being ah away from god and then you know he'll appear to me or or I'll I'll see things in a new way and it'll be more real but I don't know I mean I feel like I I tried hard while I was in there like I feel like I tried a lot of different things and like I've read different books like you know, tried out. Different expressions of christianity. But the fact is there's there's so many right? There's thousands of denominations. It's it's impossible to know like it's impossible to try them all I would say so I certainly have not exhausted the list. Yeah.

28:43.22
Jeremy
Um, um.

28:48.81
Jeremy
Yeah, that's interesting. Well oh I was hesitant to even ask the question because as you said it does sound like well maybe you're never saved to begin with which I hate I hate that argument So I'm not implying that argument or I'm not trying to imply the argument. Um I just I do think that's.

28:52.10
forestandtrees
What do you think.

29:06.70
Jeremy
I guess a difference point for you and I you know because if I were to go around and ask answer that same question. You talk about you know the staff meaning I would describe my christianity is life giving so for you to say it wasn't I would say then you know your experience of christianity was different than mine. Um, not to say you weren't a Christian or you did something wrong just to just to acknowledge on that level it. It was a it produced something different in you than it did in me, you know I guess it's a different way to say that um and you know my my thing like and a lot of this is I always wonder.

29:28.60
forestandtrees
Um.

29:37.21
forestandtrees
Um.

29:40.98
Jeremy
You know if people saw Jesus the way I see Jesus would that change their christianity would that change their belief and that's part of what you know as a preacher or as you know an armchair theologian and guy loves podcasting and reading deep books. Ah. I'm hoping that like something that I say would would be helpful for someone to go oh I didn't think about god like that or Jesus like that like even this weekend I preached at a church and gave an analogy that you know was very opposite from what most christians think of um and. What was funny is ah the song that was sung right after I was done preaching like the the words of the song made the opposite point to the illustration I had just used and my my wife Ashelle pointed that out to me. She's like um, the song is like saying the opposite and I said I know this is.

30:29.78
forestandtrees
Oh no.

30:38.80
Jeremy
This is what most christianity is is like what the song is the illustration I offered is something like a different way of thinking about Jesus and so I say that but what was cool is so after the service someone came up to me and she's like literally crying and she's like I've never thought about Jesus like that like that is a total. Game changer like that is so encouraging for me and like that for me was like oh that's awesome like something that I have found that's been helpful for me was helpful for you and like that's really all my goal like that's my sense of evangelism like stuff that I have found that's been life giving for me is like how do I share that with other people and again. Not coercively where if you go I don't want this, you know then I would say don't don't take it doesn't have to be you know, but if you're like oh that's really cool I like that and I'd like yeah take it claim it like make this your own like you know this is your truth as well. Um, so it's just I just think that's again.

31:17.77
forestandtrees
Um.

31:33.89
Jeremy
Even when we talk about your christianity experience and mine. We don't even agree on that. So I think that's just an interesting I don't know what to make of that other than to acknowledge that's different and that's interesting to me.

31:45.20
forestandtrees
Yeah, and another another thing to say is it's possible that there's just something wrong with me, you know because that I think about this with like I try to just like treat everything as an experiment you know so like I've I've talked a bunch about veganism on the show as it's like I don't. Health-wise bodily like I don't feel very different now as a vegan than I did like before when I was eating meat like I felt like fine healthy then and I feel fine Now you know you hear a lot of people say I feel so much better with the plant-based Diet. Another thing is like um. I was really curious about this this whole thing of people who wear the same outfit every day So That's something I wanted to try as an experiment. So I just started wearing the same outfit every day and it's like I like I've made a couple ticktoks about this because it's like I feel the need to anno this to people like I don't feel more productive or more fulfilled or it has not made me a better person.

32:38.60
Jeremy
But you're still doing it.

32:38.77
forestandtrees
You know I'm still I'm still me I'm still doing it. Yeah I'm I'm committed to the bit at this point So it's like I have I have pride in that and I guess I have the the self-righteousness of being a vegan to cling to but um, well okay, so can I ask you? Um, do you feel like has there ever been a time in your life where you've.

32:50.72
Jeremy
Um, ah, it's good.

32:58.62
forestandtrees
Not had Jesus in your life where you felt like you were outside of christianity in some way so that you can compare and contrast in or out.

33:04.40
Jeremy
Yeah, and it no and this is where I would say that is an interesting. So for me, you know if I think about like what would an atheist version of me look like it is theoretical because.

33:17.34
forestandtrees
Um.

33:19.40
Jeremy
I mean I was baptized in third grade I grew up literally in the church I've you know heard about Jesus since I can remember formulating thoughts. You know so like there's never been a time where I felt like I was on the outside of this now I definitely had seasons where you know I felt close to god seasons are I felt like i'm. Figuring things out on my own you know and I think any Christian has that but I've never had a season where I would say I intentionally like didn't want Jesus or was trying to do my own thing I never had that so that would be you know an interesting like there's no way can experience that without. Like renouncing what I believe which I I couldn't intellectually do like I believe it you know I mean so like I don't know how to experience that like to compare it. You know I be It's just one of those like I don't how do you.

33:58.50
forestandtrees
M. Yeah, yeah.

34:14.53
forestandtrees
And um, it's make it makes me think of um there is some kind of like deconstructor influencer I can't remember who it was who like had this post about like I'm going to give up being a christian for lent. Um, just as an experiment and of course it was very controversial like a bunch people on Facebook had. Comments on both sides of it. But yeah it it is kind of an interesting idea of like it's not exactly something you can just like take time off of in that way like like take a part of your brain and and like separate it from yourself or something like that. Yeah.

34:40.35
Jeremy
God vacation.

34:46.44
Jeremy
Well because even if I tried I think I would you know similar to our bonus episode that we recently recorded where you shared I'm just gonna tease this you you shared some personal things in your life and you know that.

34:52.86
forestandtrees
Um.

34:55.26
forestandtrees
Yeah.

35:04.39
Jeremy
Made you more aware of what you believed or didn't believe about god I think that even if I attempted to try to live without Jesus something would happen where I would find myself like wanting to talk to him you know, maybe where I'd be like yo. Yeah I know that I'm not supposed to be doing this but like let's talk like we gotta figure this out.

35:19.50
forestandtrees
Um.

35:23.90
Jeremy
Um, and I was like end of the day where I get in trouble in my own head is like I can go so deep into theology or then I can like argue against myself and this happens to me in prayer a lot where I'll like pray for something and then I'll theologically go no god doesn't work like that god you know. And then I'll like literally debate myself of like well you should be praying for this instead of this. But no why? Why would you pray for that because god doesn't do that and and then literally I just get like stuck where I'm like I don't I don't know what to ask for and then literally when I get to that place I'm just like look Jesus just you know where I'm at.

35:43.46
forestandtrees
Um.

36:02.26
Jeremy
I don't even know what's say to you right now like I'm processing this I don't have the words but and and so I like default to the to the the person you know to the relationship there. Um, and so I don't I don't know how I would ever remove that shy of having something where i. Believe like no I don't think Jesus is real and again I've deconstructed so much of my christianity where I don't believe remotely the way I did when I was baptized in third grade or even when I was married you know and you know my wife makes this joke a lot like I'm not the guy she married and.

36:26.40
forestandtrees
Um.

36:39.32
Jeremy
Look at that version of me I'm like oh you're so cute. The things that you used to believe you know and if I could have a conversation with that version of me you know I would think he's crazy and he'd think I'm crazy and would be that but ah but I can't shake Jesus I mean I just can't after all that bizarre stuff of christianity and.

36:39.96
forestandtrees
Ah.

36:58.13
Jeremy
Is many bad examples of I've had with the church and with christians I still I still think Jesus is the real deal. Can't can't quit him Jeff.

37:04.51
forestandtrees
Yeah, you can't you can't quit it. That's cool I I appreciate that about you I appreciate the the commitment and and and truthfully that's um, that that's something I really admire about you and why why I wanted you to be on this podcast in general as you seem to be someone who is like. Very legitimate in their faith and and by that I mean like someone who takes it very seriously like you recognize these objections that I bring up like you recognize why things are problematic but you're still like seriously no seriously committed to Jesus which is yeah, cool and intriguing to me so I like that. Um.

37:39.14
Jeremy
Thank you.

37:43.83
forestandtrees
All right? Well speaking of problematic passages in the bible. We're back all right? So but all right final question I realize this is sort of taking this out of context and running with it. You know, sort of a gotcha question. So just apologies in advance. But.

37:45.90
Jeremy
And we're back here. We go the doozy Jeff's been waiting for.

38:02.20
Jeremy
You're You're not apologizing.

38:03.51
forestandtrees
But it is an issue just it's not It's not brought up a ton in the bio in book of romans, but it is a major problem with the bible in general for real like something that really bothered me as a christian and you know still bothers me now. Um, so it's the issue of slavery. So I'll read a verse nineteen here. Because of the weakness of your human nature I'm using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all of this previously. You let yourself be slaves to impurity and lawlessness which led to ever deeper into sin now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteousness living so that you will become. Holy. Ah, so that's that's the nlt which we've been using for this show I read just an excerpt from and I v where it says I'm using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations so talking about slavery again. This is a metaphor that Paul is using with you know, being a slave to sin or being a slave to god so. He's not specifically condoning human slavery here. But Paul himself does seem to be okay with slavery in other epistles and in um, philemon of course like the old testament like god literally like has rules in the torah about how you treat your slaves and you treat. Israel slaves different israeli slaves differently than you treat um slaves from other nations and just all is to say like it. It could be a lot worse right? like the bible There could be a passage in the bible that says owning slaves is good god supports slavery you know the bible doesn't it's it's not

39:32.57
Jeremy
I Would that would be a rough verse. Well.

39:36.59
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's not quite that bad, but but it's not great I would say the but the the bible as I read it. The god of the bible seems to be just okay with slavery and just you know people always argue like it was the culture of the time. Whatever you know like god was meeting people where they're at and it's. And it still seems a little bit icky to me like this seems like a really big thing for god to just kind of ignore and put up with especially from the perspective of the people who are suffering under slavery for hundreds thousands of years so yeah that's my question to you Jeremy what What's to deal with. Slavery in the bible. Why is the new testament even still okay with it.

40:19.87
Jeremy
Ah, you didn't even bring up the Youtube comment we got where you want to you want to share that.

40:23.42
forestandtrees
Oh that's right? Yeah sure. Yeah I was yeah because of but we we we brought this up um a couple weeks ago just it was just off the cuff when I was saying like if you know Jesus's teachings were great about nonviolence and and whatever but like he didn't preach against. Slavery. What's the deal with that. So I posted a little short Youtube clip about it. Um, where jeremy offered his explanation and we got a comment from the dude from from the big Lebowski according to his yeah his comment was wait. People weren't ready for it. That's your argument That's your argument in all caps.

40:48.76
Jeremy
Who didn't who did not like my answer.

40:58.93
forestandtrees
I've heard apologists use this argument to explain the laws in the old testament but never heard someone use it to explain why Jesus didn't argue against it. So yeah I think the dude is is kind of on my side. Ah here. So yeah.

41:08.52
Jeremy
The dude is definitely undersight. Okay, so here so let me explain to you and the dude I think Jesus is against slavery. Okay, so start there I think Jesus is against it but to your point there are not the great texts.

41:18.16
forestandtrees
Okay, that's good.

41:26.96
Jeremy
That we would maybe want where Jesus just says look. This is not okay, release the slaves you know like there's not that so you have to ask why? How can both those be true. Can it be true that Jesus is against it if he also doesn't explicitly come out and say it which I would say yes Jesus is. Undermining every bit of slavery but he's doing it at a deeper level than just addressing slavery in the moment now what I was trying to explain what I said it last time and let me let me take another pass at this because it didn't go over well evidently for the dude.

42:01.72
forestandtrees
And.

42:04.57
Jeremy
When I mean they're not ready for it. I don't mean Jesus isn't going to be against it until they're they're ready for it. What I'm saying is he's going to be against it in a way that makes sense for the culture that he's trying to reach what I think you and I misunderstand and and. I get this sense when I read history. It's easy on this side of slavery to go? Yeah Slavery's bad. We all agree on that and to totally neglect the stranglehold that slavery had on most of culture for most of history. I mean truly so like it was a central part of roman culture. So if the church said okay hey part of being a christian is you can't you had to be against slavery. Okay, what do you ask them to do release their slaves because christians own slaves right? They they would have been part of this roman culture. Okay, great early slaves well then what do the slaves do right? are they supposed to go buy every slave from other slave owners and use all their money and you know like practically what would they do in that culture like it. It would financially upend everything right? and it would be so radical. And I think rather than attacking it that way. Jesus and I would say this is beyond just Jesus, but like I think you see themes throughout scripture that begin to undermine this where as you allow from a progressive revelation point of view you allow these ideas to keep going.

43:35.83
Jeremy
They keep undermining and undermining and undermining slavery to where you get to a point where you go. Oh yeah, this doesn't make any sense couple of interesting examples. Do you ever see the the show outlander. Okay, cool show I Love history.

43:48.86
forestandtrees
Ah, no.

43:52.83
Jeremy
Ah, do you know the preise of this or no cause it's kind of a bizarre I guess I should explain it Anyways in case someone? Okay so you have oh gosh How do I explain this succinctly. Um, it's kind of interesting. You have this lady I think she's like world War Two Era if I recall. It's been a little bit since I've watched it.

43:54.71
forestandtrees
No, no sorry.

44:10.71
Jeremy
And she gets like transported back in time to Scotland and like I don't know like the seventeen hundreds are I don't remember what year it is something like that and and so then she like bounces back and forth and so then in the show she knows what she knows from like the current day but then she keeps getting like. Thrown back into history and then this is where it's like really intriguing and she ends up. You know, connecting with this guy back in you know, olden times and all this well there's this one season where they go to America and this is early America where slavery is the deal and she's like modern day like.

44:33.66
forestandtrees
Um.

44:48.16
Jeremy
No, this is awful. We're not having anything to do with slavery and that season is so interesting because it illustrates culturally how like America is like there's no way that's going to work at that point unless you get enough people to culturally say yeah we want to change this. Like you can't have one person who's going. Yeah, this is bad. We're gonna change it like the very culture is built around this. So everyone that culture looks at her like what are you? What are you doing because it just doesn't make any sense to them right? And so like there's even a part where she tries to like free a slave who's being tortured and she thinks that she's helping this slave. And then so like so she's meeting with him later and he literally says to her like you've just made my life 10 times worse because now they're going to torture me way worse because of what you've done and like you see this realization like kick in for her of like I'm trying to help you but because this culture is so built on this. This isn't the way that's going to to do that. That's what I'm trying to say is like I just think we need to read more history as we go. Why didn't jesus come out and say it. It's like that culture was completely built on it and would be built for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. In fact, this is still an issue in America today.

46:01.11
forestandtrees
Um.

46:03.41
Jeremy
We may say we've got beyond it but slavery and its effects are still causing issue in our country today. So we want to go like oh we're way beyond that now. It's so cut and dry. It's not this is still our country's big sin and still has you know remnants of that. So. When I say Jesus is against it I think Jesus is trying to go to the source rather than a symptom of it right? here's how we fundamentally think of people the wrong way and slavery is one way in which you can you know, get wrong of how people should interact with one another now there's. Interesting passages throughout scripture I was thinking about in the old testament when moses gets married to to Zapora who's a a kushite woman. This does not go over well with his sister and she basically gets mad. Ah, that he's married a woman from another culture this is interracial marriage and she you know gives issue and god gives Miriam leprosy in numbers twelve ten and so I think it's interesting god punishes the racist in this episode and blesses interracial marriage that story by itself.

47:12.23
forestandtrees
Yeah.

47:15.34
Jeremy
In the time when that story is written is radical like that is way ahead of its time because again interracial marriage will be banned in America for a long time after this and here you have god literally giving someone leprosy for standing against it and giving blessing. Then you have the book of phileman which a lot of people argue Phileman it's sure it's not as clear even then as we would want to be but when Phil Leeman you know or Paul is saying hey treat him as you would treat me well that would.

47:41.51
forestandtrees
Um.

47:48.50
Jeremy
Undermine slavery if we treated slaves the way we wanted to be treated right? like so you start to see like there maybe are things that are there. They're just not the way we might want them to be said today. But here's what I'll leave you with the the best thing that I've read recently on this I'm gonna give a book recommendation. People should not be. Surprise at this point that I'm continually recommending books but we'll put this in the and the notes the book is called the forgotten creed by Stephen J Patterson he argues in this book out of galatians three where Paul says there's now you know.

48:12.16
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah.

48:26.61
Jeremy
Neither Jew or gentile slave free male and female this incredible phrase of like whoa whoa whoa. There's there's not like this is a bold statement to make right? and ah Patterson in the book argues that he thinks that Paul is actually quoting.

48:38.69
forestandtrees
Um.

48:45.00
Jeremy
The earliest Christian creed he doesn't think Paul came up with this that this already existed this creed existed of Jew or gentile slave free male and female that this was the first creed of the early church. This is a fascinating book. Ah to think about maybe the church was originally. On the forefront of dismantling slavery. We just tended to cherry pick the wrong verses after the fact and it didn't catch on the way it could have caught on but what if like how would we view this differently if you found out the earliest Christian Creed was against slavery like isn't that be like before even Paul is writing like.

49:21.28
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that'd be good news I'd like that.

49:24.15
Jeremy
That that creed already existed. That's awesome and that's what this whole book is it's talking about that's the forgotten creed that Paul's actually referencing and and he goes on to explain why and I think it's incredibly ah, compelling and and I I was like yep I'm sold. This book is really good and so I do think Jesus and. The early church was against slavery I just think they tried to do it in a cultural way that made sense for them and I think it's a little unfair of us in our culture to impose upon them, you should have done it the way we would want you to do it today. Um, which you go that's 2000 years of culture and history different and again I think they they were I think they were battling against it I think Jesus was absolutely undermining in you know, love your enemies I mean like all these things are so radical and if you treated people the way. Jesus. Invited us to treat people. You would realize slavery doesn't make any sense. So I think it's against it I just think we have to we have to kind of put our preferences aside from our cultural vantage point and go they were trying to do it in their way and.

50:24.39
forestandtrees
Um.

50:35.90
Jeremy
There are indicators that this was a huge deal for them.

50:39.49
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's really cool I'm I'm definitely curious to check out that book because I've not I've not really heard that theory before but yeah, huge huge if true for sure. Um.

50:47.56
Jeremy
Well and I had not heard it either. So like all my years of christianity I had never heard this idea stumbled into this book and immediately was like holy Cow This is good. This is so good and it's an audio book for anyone who's like whoa I don't.

50:58.60
forestandtrees
Yeah, that that would be.

51:06.20
Jeremy
Read books like that you've proven. You can listen to ah an audio podcast. So just take a break and listen to an audiobook.

51:12.26
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean if you can if you can put up with us for an hour you you can listen anything truly ah all right I don't know if this is unique to what I said last time I just I hear you with the culturally dismantling thing. Um, and and I understand what you're saying and like it's possible that they were somewhat outspoken against slavery but just in a more subtle way just like again when I think about like as we've talked about this whole episode like Nonviolence love your enemies and also like Jesus Jesus is like very explicit teaching against wealth and against like. Owning physical things. You know like that those are also radical things that people clearly did not take to heart right? I mean ah you could say you could argue the culture wasn't ready to hear um, love your enemies and commit. No violence against 1 another because we had we still have had war. the past two thousand years we still have four today so you know that you could say that's like this aspirational thing that society wasn't ready for because they were too immature. They couldn't handle it but that didn't but jesus was not shy about talking about it the way that he was more. At least subtle or subdued the way he was talking about slavery does that make sense.

52:29.87
Jeremy
Yeah, but I think you gotta realize you're so if you're a christian in that culture and you're listening to okay, love love your enemies. Well I can apply that universally if you say slavery's bad. You can't have any part of it. Okay, well then how do i. How do I live that out in this culture right? like there would be that would be a lot of an interesting thing for these guys to do like how do how do we go about doing that what I would compare it to is Jesus does talk about nonviolence but he doesn't talk about necessarily. You can't be in the military that's to me the same concept.

53:03.36
forestandtrees
Right.

53:06.97
Jeremy
He undermines the military by saying love your enemy and so I would say if you take Jesus' ' words literally on love your enemy I don't know how you would justify as a christian going I'm gonna go to war and go kill people. Well how are you doing that if you know to me that's the same thing. Well why didn't jesus come out and say it.

53:12.00
forestandtrees
Um.

53:22.80
forestandtrees
Um.

53:26.40
Jeremy
Because if Jesus would have said in that culture hey you just can't be in the military that would have been again I mean all the christians would have been killed for that because now you're viewed as you know every completely anti-rome and so he rather than going to the Symptom. He's going to the cause he's like hey love your enemy which then would negate the fact like how do I do this. And what's interesting about that if you read early christian tradition. The majority of the church before constantine did conclude hey I don't think we're supposed to be in the in the military because Jesus said to love your enemy like they got to that conclusion on their own without Jesus having to say it because they realized he's undermined that very premise.

53:59.26
forestandtrees
Ah.

54:05.74
Jeremy
I think that's how he attacked these things in culture Jesus wasn't trying to reform roman culture. He was changing the world forever and so rather than dealing with the cultural manifestations of these things he's going way deeper than that which would apply for all time for all cultures and so to me. I think that's what's going on rather than hey don't be in the military because everyone's like what about the centurion he doesn't tell the centurion to leave. He doesn't but he said to love your enemies. How do? How do you go be willing to kill someone for your job if. You're also taking jesus literally on that line. You know what? I mean.

54:32.60
forestandtrees
Ah.

54:43.20
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Um I don't know. Um, yeah because I'm thinking about like the debate with the the historical debate within christianity about whether we should end slavery or not it seems it seems clear that it would have at least ended sooner. If there was more proof texts. You know I mean I I'm not sure that um like god or Jesus and necessarily like and intended for the bible to come into existence the way it is the way that it did or that like god Endorses Proof Texts you know.

55:01.48
Jeremy
Correct. Oh.

55:12.40
Jeremy
I so I certainly don't think Paul did.

55:19.50
forestandtrees
And this way um I don't know yeah I like your answer Jeremy it is it is much more satisfying than just like well it was a it was a different time the way that like I've heard most apologists kind of tackle this issue.

55:33.56
Jeremy
What again that statement is true. It was a different time so you do have to like if you're trying to apply this two thousand years ago and not make any distinction on culture. You're on everything you're gonna have an issue right? like you have to acknowledge it.

55:37.16
forestandtrees
No.

55:51.16
forestandtrees
Um.

55:51.61
Jeremy
So then you have to see what were they doing within the culture that they had and again if the earliest Christian Creed was this thing about there's no jew. There's no gentiles no slaves no free. There's no mail like there's this beautiful sense of unity. That's drawing all people together if that's the first creed and that existed by a time Paul is writing these letters like that is so encouraging to me of like these sparks of the early church that had seen Jesus and realized oh this changes. Everything.

56:14.32
forestandtrees
Um.

56:23.94
Jeremy
Because if the early church would have followed that creed rather than some of the other things that they chose to embrace we would have had a very different story.

56:30.59
forestandtrees
Yeah, or if that creed could have been canonized could have made its way into the bible you know which I guess you could say maybe it did with Paul's statement but

56:38.72
Jeremy
Well yeah, so so the the argument would be Paul which again the the writer you you would love just the way he talks about Paul because his whole thing is like Paul had no idea any of this was gonna be the bible. Paul's just dealing with things you know as he's trying to help people navigate this. But Paul.

56:49.98
forestandtrees
M.

56:57.44
Jeremy
Paul's you know his take is Paul's quoting this creed in galatians 3 and and elsewhere and that it that is how it works its way in that there is no you know Jew or gentile slaver free and that is there like we acknowledge like glaians 3 that's that's there it's just the church has chosen not to.

57:10.36
forestandtrees
Um.

57:15.28
Jeremy
Lean heavily onto that and so to me that's more the miss opportunity is the first creed was this beautiful countercultural life altering creed and yet somehow the way the christian tradition played out that creed got minimized and we ended up going Constantine's route and forming christendom and you know sharing christianity by force.

57:37.86
forestandtrees
Yeah, ah yeah I Also the whole there is no male or female seems like an easy layup proof text for people who want to talk about like a more modern version of gender politics. But I mean that's a completely different topic. Um.

57:50.96
Jeremy
Yep.

57:54.78
forestandtrees
Okay, so just kind of like final question about just you know it. It was a different time and you had to understand things in their context. Do you do you feel like the bible should come with more of a a disclaimer or something like that you know like I think about you know I mean there's old like. Disney and looney tunes cartoons right? where there's like cartoons who are in blackface and those have just been like been deleted but people will upload them to Youtube and stuff like that and then you have like the movie gone with the wind has that is is a classic of cinema but it has this outdated view of slavery. So like Hbo puts this giant disclaimer. At the front of the movie and it's a big controversy. Do you feel like the bible could use something like that you know because people like to say the bible is a perfect book. There's nothing wrong with it. But also like seems to be okay with slave free and genocide and and have some other issues. Do you have any opinions on that.

58:46.29
Jeremy
Ah yes I Strongly think it'd be better with that and I think there are way too many Christians who would literally kill or die over that issue. It would never allow it to happen and that would probably be the most offensive thing you could say to some christians you know. Putting a disclaimer on it I I Honestly think and I try to nuance this in my own preaching and in my own teaching I think we shouldn't teach the the old testament the way we do that We just lump it all together of this is all the Christian bible I think no, it's the Hebrew bible and this set up.

59:19.96
forestandtrees
Um.

59:25.98
Jeremy
What became the christian bible which is you know what we know as the new testament. But even then you know it's just way Messier I think like you dive into this stuff and the forgotten creed is a great illustration. He references a number of books that are attributed to Paul and he's just like Paul didn't write these books. It's like and he he talks about.

59:43.60
forestandtrees
Um.

59:44.84
Jeremy
People tried to hijack the person of Paul because Paul had such a notoriety about him that even after he died people started writing things and claiming to be written by Paul to to let v his influence and now today we think Paul was you know all these things and his argument was like Paul never wrote that like that's someone else later. And he you know he's a scholar so he's getting into why he doesn't think it's Paul. Um, yeah I think they I think the way most christians read the bible is problematic and I think you know and I wrote a blog post about this recently like 1 of the best things you could do is to go to seminary and realize how complicated. All of this stuff is and it would be the thing that you'd go oh my sense of certainty that I have that I'm 100% right? and this is the only way to view. It is kind of laughable considering how much the christian tradition has viewed this.

01:00:25.57
forestandtrees
Um.

01:00:38.79
Jeremy
But instead we have pastors who want to argue anytime someone you know offers any other point of view and like call them a heretic and say you shouldn't be able to preach that view and that comes from the way they read the bible and yeah, it's incredibly problematic. So. I think it would be amazing I think it will never in 1000000 years happen at least in our lifetime.

01:01:02.65
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, well I mean of course there are ah different translations of the bible already. You know wherere like they they change like the pronouns and things like that mean like some people like those versions of bible. You know some people reject that.

01:01:14.77
Jeremy
Yeah, and people boycott that you ever have a T and I V version of the bible. Yeah I love that version and then I got boycotted because they use gender inclusive language. So when it says Brothers You know it would say.

01:01:19.13
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I remember I remember hearing about that years ago people saying like this is this is the end of christendom right.

01:01:33.96
Jeremy
Brothers and sisters right? They like that's not what the text says. Yeah, but the text wasn't trying to single out males. It was just using language in that time. That's how you would say it and so now they're using language you know like this is where it's like it's just so complicated Christians lose their minds over this stuff.

01:01:51.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, you you had a good run. Yeah I oh hold. Yeah, that might be worth something someday. Ah um.

01:01:52.20
Jeremy
Rest in Peace T and Ivy You had a good run I still have my copy somewhere can't take can't take that away from me.

01:02:06.92
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean I suppose I've said all this before like it just seems like that's just one of the problematic consequences of of putting so much value on a single book. You know like when I think about like the debate between like catholics and protestants about like Sola scripturra versus what's what's the Catholic sola.

01:02:14.80
Jeremy
Sure.

01:02:24.94
forestandtrees
Ah, pope whatever the pope has the final say. Um you know protestants will argue like the Pope's just a guy you know you can't trust him but I would say like well yeah, but you could also argue like the bible is just a book like why would you give that priority over like at least someone who lives in the twenty first century and. Can think critically about these things in context. So.

01:02:44.50
Jeremy
Well what? But I think it's become culturally normative for Christians to talk about the bible in I mean truly supernatural ways like we we refer to like the bible is the word of God and it's this. You know you will find your life and the bible will read you as you read it. It's like what? no.

01:02:58.46
forestandtrees
Um.

01:03:04.17
forestandtrees
And.

01:03:04.34
Jeremy
The word of god is Jesus Jesus will read you as as you engage in the text but the bible's not supernatural. The bible's a book. You know that god uses but it's Jesus who's using it and Jesus who's doing it. It's not. It's not the text.

01:03:19.64
forestandtrees
Yeah, but also I mean there must be other dark forces also using the bible right? because.

01:03:27.27
Jeremy
Yes I ah this was funny. Yeah, you'll get kick of this I I shared an illustration I just found it this week um in Tempe there's you know you know you see like a sign that's like a park is been adopted by some organization they come in. They keep.

01:03:42.26
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, ah.

01:03:43.11
Jeremy
Keep the park clean and they you know pay for I don't know renovations. Whatever and I felt this this sign that said, um, you know this park adopted by the satanic temple of Tempe was like what like this is not what you expect.

01:03:53.53
forestandtrees
And.

01:04:00.88
Jeremy
From a satanic temple right? like they're adopting parks and making neighborhoods better like Thanks satanist. We we appreciate that? ah.

01:04:05.94
forestandtrees
Yeah, have you seen the documentary hail satan um I rememberageed a couple years ago. It was on hulu at the time I don't know if it's still available anywhere. But yeah, very interesting. It's about the satanic temple. Um. To try to try summarize. They're they're not so they don't like literally believe in Satan for the most part they're more of like a political protest movement where they're like for fraud freedom from religion I guess is probably what they would say like so the whole thing like their big move is like if you want to say that the 10 commandments goes on the front lawn of. This capitol building then we also get to put a statue of satan right next to the 10 commandments because that's all religion so we have as much right to put the statue there as you have to put your religious monument and then of course everyone gets upset about that and says you can't put a statue state in there satan there so they put zero zero statues there so like

01:04:48.12
Jeremy
Will.

01:05:00.89
Jeremy
Right.

01:05:01.39
forestandtrees
That's how they win basically is by yeah, removing Christians ability to kind of dominate the culture in that way. But yeah, yeah, fascinating organization. Yeah, shout out shout out to the satanic temple. Yeah, ah okay, cool I.

01:05:05.86
Jeremy
There you go.

01:05:12.49
Jeremy
Shut up the satanic temple.

01:05:21.22
forestandtrees
Yeah I feel satisfied you feel you feel good about your answer this time. Do you think the dude. Do you think the dude is going to abide with what you had to say.

01:05:24.70
Jeremy
Woo. Well no I don't I don't think I'm going to win the dude over but I I did my best Jeff I leave it there I leave it into the into the capable hands of our listeners.

01:05:37.42
forestandtrees
All right? Yeah, well we yeah we think the listeners have very capable hands. So appreciate that appreciate everyone listening and hang in with us and ah yeah, we will be back in chapter 7 god willing next week and and we'll post some clips between now and then so reach out put us know what you think about what we're talking about talk to you later.