We’re back after some unexpected medical troubles in Jef’s family - the Forest & the Trees has taken a back seat while Jef has been hanging out in the hospital with his wife, praying for healing and contemplating God’s existence. Jef unpacks some of his emotions and Jeremy offers his perspective on sickness, suffering, and prayer.
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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We’re back after some unexpected medical troubles in Jef’s family - the Forest & the Trees has taken a back seat while Jef has been hanging out in the hospital with his wife, praying for healing and contemplating God’s existence. Jef unpacks some of his emotions and Jeremy offers his perspective on sickness, suffering, and prayer.
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
00:00.60
Jeremy
Well hello everybody we are back after a bit of a break if you have been listening in time with us. You have noticed. There's there's been a bit of radio silence if you're joining this after the fact. Then this is gonna seem totally normal to you. Welcome. We have a bonus episode for you. We're not gonna go through a chapter of romans because life has happened and we thought let's just sit in this and be present in it. Fun fact I'm I'm here is always joined by Jeff and. I was recently asked Jeff a question that I thought was funny. Someone texted me and said are you and Jeff okay, ah because evidently they assumed we might be fighting because ah we hadn't we hadn't posted anything a little bit and so the answer to that is Jeff and I are are good.
00:44.73
forestandtrees
Oh wow.
00:57.54
Jeremy
We're we're doing okay, but Jeff has had a lot going on in his life recently and so we thought we'd give him some space to share that to share how he's processing that and we don't really know what this bonuce is gonna look like but we're just gonna go there and see what happens. So Jeff welcome. Floors yours let let us in on what's going on.
01:20.23
forestandtrees
Yeah, thanks! Jeremy thanks to all our listeners for for bearing with us as Jeremy said my life has kind of screeched to a halt these past couple weeks. My my wife has been battling this sickness that that came upon her just kind of. Out of nowhere is this infection in the lungs. We ah, we've been in the hospital the past couple weeks. Originally, we just went to urgent care and we thought that would take care of it then we ended up going to the er and then we ended up getting admitted to the hospital and we thought we would just be in the hospital. A couple days but a couple days turned into about a week and a half and surgery and a handful of procedures and just a whole lot of um, you know, uncertainty anxiety and um, you know, figuring out what what's going on here. So just to kind of sum up the That's why I haven't we haven't been recording because I've just been busy just doing nothing hanging out at the hospital and trying to figure out what's going on with the doctors and stuff these past couple weeks and just just to let you know we're we're doing. Okay, now we're we're back home recovering. Ah you know, no longer. In the hospital. Hopefully hopefully the sickness has passed us um and like I said that so that's why I'm no, we were not recording for these past couple weeks because that was just had had other things that I was attending to and i.
02:54.85
forestandtrees
Being said I also had a whole lot of downtime and I was kind of reflecting on so you know some of these classic questions that I've had that I've talked about um about christianity about god and prayer like why doesn't god just heal people. Why when we when we pray does it not seem to work that you know those types of questions that that I had beforehand but they became much more like visceral and personal to me and I spent a lot of time just reflecting on these things and talking to other people about them. And I thought this would be a great opportunity to kind of unpack some of these thoughts and and kind of just hear like what Jeremy has to say because as I said I feel like I've I've had a lot of these questions beforehand and I feel like they've become much more um, just upfront in my life and personal in these past. Ah. Couple weeks. So yeah, that that's kind of where we're at now so something that I've thought about is ah ah I don't I feel like I've always um, wondered or um, kind of waiverd between like what what exactly I classify myself as like am I a deconstructed crush am i. Agnostic atheist skeptic as as I say in like the show description that kind of thing and I feel like this this experience with with my wife being sick and me like trying to figure out what's what's going on and how do we? How do we help her and get her. Well again I feel like i've.
04:28.17
forestandtrees
I've I've become more of the stereotypical ah bitter atheist who's angry at God for not existing or at least I spent some time in that area and ah yeah I don't know I just wanted to to talk about it because it's like all the stuff we talk about on this show just like. Happening in a more real way.
04:48.68
Jeremy
Yeah, this is not. It's not theoretical. We're going through a text anymore. It's like these ideas crash into life.
04:58.28
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, um, okay, so do you feel like that does that cover kind of the the basic setup. Do you feel like people are filled in well enough of like what's what's been going on. Okay, cool.
05:08.85
Jeremy
Ah, yeah I mean it's whatever you want to share.
05:14.12
forestandtrees
Um, well okay, so here's here's kind of like a a basic question I've thought about a lot of like so um, just this whole idea of thoughts and prayers. You know is is is very cliche thing anytime. There's you know like a mass shooting or an event or you know like a loved one is sick and in a hospital. It's like I would I would get um. All of my family members and friends who are Christian would be texting me and saying we're praying for you and the not my non-christian friends would would text me and say hey we're thinking about you guys and we're sending good vibes. So kind of this thoughts versus prayers mentality and something that. Remember like years ago when I was a christian and I would think about the thoughts and prayers thing. Um I would I would think like that seems so stupid to like send thoughts. What's the point of that you know like prayer is the only thing that actually has a chance of actually doing anything now I feel like maybe the opposite maybe like. Thoughts are are more powerful because at least it's it's not like over promising something. It's not going to deliver. Do you know what? I mean like with with thought just the thought of like hey the people in my life who care about us are thinking about us. You know that's nice and like maybe that's all that.
06:18.00
Jeremy
Yeah.
06:28.58
forestandtrees
Prayer is for some people. Maybe it's just kind of a social nicety but I don't I just spent a lot of time thinking about like when people say we're praying for you and then like the the prayer doesn't seem to like actually do anything.. It makes me think like I'm not sure if this is making it better or worse like I could just choose to interpret it as. Ah, they're just being nice that are saying I'm thinking about you or it could be like Well, what's what's the point of prayer because we're still in the Hospital. We're still like struggling to figure out what's going on here. Ah yeah, So what? what are your thoughts on that jeremy.
07:03.60
Jeremy
Well I definitely think there is like an immediate when someone says hey I'm sending good thoughts your way or reaches out. That's that's them showing you right that you're you're on their thoughts I do think there's an immediate encouragement of that which is a reminder that you're not alone that you exist in some sense of community. That there are other people you know, ah vicariously caring that pain with you and you know obviously they can't alleviate it but they can share it. You know which I think is a a huge tangible point of relationships are people entering into pain with us when they don't have to um. So I do think that's real I think you know when I use the phrase like thoughts and good vibes or whatever. That's where I would say that that to me sounds very new age like Hocus Pocus sending you good vibes like what What's a good vibe that you're sending me like I don't understand that.
07:53.20
forestandtrees
Right? Like what does that mean? Yeah, um.
07:57.55
Jeremy
That to me I would say sounds very I don't know hokey pokey but someone saying hey I'm sending you thoughts or just displaying You're on my mind I'm thinking about you I think that is very tangible and that's huge what I would say is someone who says they're praying for you is giving you thoughts plus something.
08:15.25
forestandtrees
Oh.
08:16.82
Jeremy
Right? So if someone says they're praying for you. They're communicating to you. You are on my thoughts like I'm thinking about you enough to reach out to you and tell you this or I'm telling you that I am praying about you which means you're also in my thoughts and I'm you know business about it. So I think that at a minimum you could take encouragement from that. So Even if. You didn't you know, believe in the prayer part that you could take it as oh someone's thinking about me and it could be encouraged by that it was interesting to me that during all this you know I would check in with you and there was one point you said to me hey feel free to I don't remember how you texted it feel free to shoot some prayers up for me.
08:48.53
forestandtrees
Um.
08:51.90
forestandtrees
Yeah.
08:56.19
Jeremy
You know if you're interested or something and I just thought it was kind of a funny you know, especially as you you know you're having your angry atheist moment. Um, you invite you seem to invite it at least you know for me of hey I'm you know I'm I'm welcoming this and you know the reality is we were already praying for you.
09:05.30
forestandtrees
Um.
09:14.75
Jeremy
I didn't feel the need to like keep telling you that you know, um, but you know when he said to me I was like yeah absolutely like and you know I've I've mentioned before my daughter and I pray for you quite a bit and you know for whatever reason she really thinks about you in this podcast a lot and so we know going to bed. She'll she'll often bring it up and.
09:17.30
forestandtrees
Pray it.
09:34.74
Jeremy
I Just told her about you know your wife and what you guys are going through and she's like oh we're go to pray for this and so we did you know we prayed for you guys numerous times throughout this. Um, and so ah, you know I think even if you would say a prayer didn't work or wasn't answered the way you wanted. Um at a minimum someone offering a prayer to you is.
09:49.67
forestandtrees
Um.
09:53.88
Jeremy
I Think trying to give a gift you know, even if ah even if it's not welcome I do and this is where you could correct me I feel like and I you know? Yeah I Even did this with you but like I wasn't gonna overtly tell you that I'm praying for you and you know here's the things I'm praying for um. Because that does feel a little bit a little bit heavyhanded of like here's my belief system I'm going to now put it on to you in a moment of you know, suffering and emotional baggage and now you now you get to carry all my thought process on this so to me like on that I Just you know more like hey I'm gonna check in on you. You know you know that you're on my mind.
10:22.20
forestandtrees
Um.
10:32.68
Jeremy
Um, and then I'll do my prayer thing on my own space so that you don't have to like I'll still intercede for you. But if you don't want it. You know it's not as like in your face. Um, and maybe that's maybe that's not the right way I don't know maybe it's you know, maybe Christians should just be like I don't care what you say and pray for you. Um.
10:51.55
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, no I I mean I appreciate that? Yeah I kind of assumed that that you were praying for me at least in passing and so like when you sent the text of saying like you know you would just say like I'm I'm sorry you guys are going through this hope everything works out. Um, hope you know she gets better soon and stuff like that. Um.
10:52.64
Jeremy
But don't know.
11:08.59
forestandtrees
And I was just I was thinking oh Jeremy's showing some restraint here by not including like praying for you guys and I thought yeah, that's cool I mean I'm obviously you're you're coming from a good place of like not wanting to be heavy handed or pushy or anything about so I really appreciate that I mean like I said before I'm I'm still kind of deciding like whether i. Appreciate people saying I'm praying for you or not whether it was like just making things worse like I already talked about but of course yeah I I mean I was praying for healing as well I was saying I repeatedly told god like this would be a perfect time for you to show up. Prove me wrong like I'll I'll call the podcast off you know I'll repent of everything set my life of cynicide and that what a cool moment right? like that would be such a cool. Um. From a Pr perspective right? I feel like that would be a really cool move of god to answer an atheist frair and get a conversion out of it as well. You know.
12:04.70
Jeremy
But I guess I would I would just push them out a little bit of like how do you know? God didn't answer some prayer or you know I mean what? what's to say that things couldn't have gone worse than they did and something that you prayed or I prayed or.
12:12.27
forestandtrees
Um.
12:20.25
forestandtrees
Um.
12:23.80
Jeremy
My daughter prayed or someone else prayed you know invited God to work in a certain way that it did So maybe not, you know, maybe you wanted some miraculous suddenly everything's gone and you know her lungs are fully functioning back to normal and as as if nothing happened.
12:33.46
forestandtrees
Yeah.
12:38.85
forestandtrees
Right? right.
12:40.64
Jeremy
But maybe that wasn't the way God was gonna answer that prayer. You know So I I don't know and that's it's one of those you can't prove that either way so kind of a tricky tricky argument because I can't prove that God answered it and you can't prove that God didn't answer it and so we're kind of both just like well maybe maybe maybe got intervened somehow.
12:55.96
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, and that that's another thing I thought about a lot. Ah too is so that kind of like as you know as we progress through like the medical system. The prayers would change because yeah, ah, initially you pray for just miraculous healing right? because that would be. The quickest. Easiest way out of here right? is just like if you could just heal everything instantly then that's perfect. Um, but then it's like okay we're going in for surgery tomorrow. So then my family members are that are praying you know guide the Surgeon Hand Surgeon's hand we're going to pray that everything go as well and that she heals well and that we're also going to pray. For like peace of mind for you and for loved ones and things like that and so I don't know I mean I'm I'm used to all that because that's that's just Christian culture. That's that's how people do things but it did make me wonder like what? why would we pray? Why do we kind of adjust our expectations with prayer. You know I mean like well we start by praying for the big thing and when if if you get a know on that you pray for the less and less impressive things. You know I'm trying like I'm trying to decide like did I feel any kind of special peace of mind I don't know I definitely had a lot of anxiety and. Fear and a lot of like lack of peace of mind throughout this whole experience. But I mean I I had times when I was able to sort of make peace with it and be calm and you know find find some space within the quietness of my soul or whatever.
14:26.24
forestandtrees
So I don't you know, maybe that was god dipping in because the prayers finally kicked in or ah, you know, maybe that's just like the normal process of you need to find a way to cope with you can't because you can't be stressed 24 hours a day now.
14:37.74
Jeremy
You know, well and I think the reality is life. You know for all of history for all people life is filled with suffering I mean and there's you know you read any amount of history and that's evident like you know it's abundantly evident and. Our prayers are usually prayers to alleviate suffering for us or for the people we love you know one of the top top things that we pray for. And yeah I mean I could say I believe God's good and God doesn't desire suffering. It's not I don't think it's caused by God I Don't think it's. You know God's will as as some christians would argue but I would say you know I have found historically into my own life that God uses it and you know it's been said that you know pain is God's megaphone where there are definitely seasons and you know you're even describing this where. You're you're listening for God right now in the last few weeks differently than you have been and I think that's one of the ways God uses moments like these where we we tend to we tend to see life differently where you know you were probably worried about some freelance projects or this or that and then all of a sudden like your world got focused.
15:32.43
forestandtrees
Um.
15:47.84
forestandtrees
Sure.
15:49.22
Jeremy
Right? It's like that doesn't matter right now like my wife matters and this matters and you know you have this perspective where it's kind of this reminder of like yeah these other things are good and important but like right now this is this is more important than all of that and I think that's that's one of the. Benefits of pain not that we would choose it but like it has a very clarifying sense of like oh now I'm realizing you know this I think God does speak in those moments and um, yeah I mean I I think it's the it's the perpetual question of like why doesn't God Intervene more.
16:08.94
forestandtrees
Um.
16:24.91
Jeremy
To which I don't know that there is any good you know idea or a way to answer that and anyone that tries is probably just trying to put a spin on something and tell you something you know see like we've talked about this a little bit I think on the podcast before but like theologically there are some.
16:37.50
forestandtrees
Um.
16:42.44
Jeremy
Like I think of like ah just guy him Thomas J Ord he's a a what's called ah a process theologian and he had written a book called god can't and basically would argue in times like this when god doesn't answer something the way you'd want. It's because god is non coercive and so for god to. Answer the prayer that you would want would would demand god coercively act upon his creation. Whether that be you know at the cellular level of what's going on in our body or what's going on with the surgeon or you know this or that. Um and I think that's an interesting line of thought.
17:16.87
forestandtrees
Um.
17:20.88
Jeremy
That gets also confusing to me and so you know I'll I'll dip a toe into that conversation from time and time of like you know, maybe it's something that. So even when I was praying for you guys in moments like these I often like hey God we're inviting you into this like we're inviting. You. It's not coercive like we're asking you to do this. You know so. If that was something that God was restraining because of that then I think that's where prayer is like us choosing it like hey we're choosing you. We're not, We're not, We're inviting you and we're not. You know this does not have to be heavy handed for you to do this So All those are just ways to kind of explore this. But.
17:55.59
forestandtrees
Um.
17:57.95
Jeremy
I think the hope is that you emerge out of this in a healthier way holistically not just physically but like oh this was clarifying or we saw this or this made more sense to us and then use these moments and that's certainly been you know story in my life. Some of the most painful things I have to think about like you know. Me resigning from my lead pastor position was the most painful season of my life and now I'm grateful for it because of who I am today which is largely because of what played out at the moment it was overwhelming and and awful and.
18:23.39
forestandtrees
Um.
18:36.66
Jeremy
I would never want to go through it again. You know and so I don't There's just like this weird mixture of both of those realities that I don't want to like cover over or try to force some easy answer onto but just make space for both of those to be true like I think God is genuinely good and doesn't want suffering. And I Also think God uses these moments and we get clarity and somehow both of those are true.
19:02.53
forestandtrees
Yeah I bet I mean so of course I've been thinking a lot about like what you know What's the silver lining here like what? what did we learn from this experience and I mean certainly there are I could say you know I learned like not to take anything for granted you know or like I felt. Like much more ah much more visceral emotional sense of love and caring for my wife than like just like a regular day where I'm just like as you say like just distracted with work and whatever. Um, yeah I don't know in terms of like is is that worth it or not you know like I mean. Like let's say this this brought us closer together because of the trying times. But I mean we also like had a bunch of arguments because we're in a stressful situation and trying to make decisions and stuff like that like you know I'm I'm sure there's tons of people who get divorced because of like the strain of medical. Problems and god like not showing up and answering their prayers. So I don't you know like it's I don't know it's it's hard to know like when when people talk about like what doesn't kill you make you makes you stronger like I don't think that's universally true I think it's certainly can be true depending on the circumstance.
20:01.91
Jeremy
Um, no like.
20:17.39
forestandtrees
Um, but then of course like within the Christian worldview.. There's kind of there's always the answer of well you know you'll you'll have a perfect body in the afterlife. You know So there's There's always kind of that I don't know that like future hope to. To hang any unanswered questions on. Yeah.
20:35.17
Jeremy
Right? I also think too. You know if you think about if you like Zoom way out and just imagine a world where every time there was any type of suffering and you prayed about it. God always answered it. Yes.
20:51.34
forestandtrees
Um.
20:52.92
Jeremy
And always relieved it that would create a reality where then everybody would technically follow a God like that because why would you not? you know, like if you realized hey all you got to do is pray this prayer or believe this thing and all that suffering in your life's gone.
21:01.32
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
21:11.46
Jeremy
I mean I literally believe everybody would do it because all of us experience suffering. It's It's part of the human condition that you know universally brings us together. No matter where you live in the world or how much money you make or any it's like doesn't matter how you vote like all of us experience suffering to one degree or another and.
21:29.90
forestandtrees
Um.
21:29.68
Jeremy
If There were a way to automatically remove it everybody would and that would actually that would be you know?? Ah, not a not a faith at all that would just be like oh yeah, that's that's the easiest way to get what you want like you just believe it's god. And so it's almost weird of like if God were to answer all these and like you said well this would be incredible story like all of them would be. You know I mean and if God answered all those then everybody would pray those prayers and everybody would do these things and why would you not and then you have just a very different sense of reality and then.
21:50.63
forestandtrees
Yeah.
22:04.85
Jeremy
You know, almost like so much of the world and the free will of where we we feel the need to step up would be removed because god would do it all and um, you know there's this. Ah, there's this line in a Christmas carol where.
22:16.21
forestandtrees
Um.
22:22.68
Jeremy
Ah, Scrooge is talking to the ghosts of Christmas present and he's kind of blaming him for the poverty and you know there's like this weird god connection as scrooge understands it and I don't know where dickens was at theologically and all this. But and I love the gross Christmas present like if we were to do all these things then what would it demand of you.
22:33.42
forestandtrees
Um.
22:42.54
Jeremy
Like you just expect us to solve all these problems then you would you would have no obligation to your fellow man to like actually be there for them and that argument is a true argument like if we if we thought it was God's responsibility to take care of the poor. It's God's responsibility to heal people. It's God's responsibility this or that.
23:01.36
forestandtrees
Ah.
23:02.14
Jeremy
Then you and I have no responsibility to others. It becomes a very selfish way of thinking about the world instead. However, this mystery that god chooses to do it of sometimes yes sometimes no sometimes or not really sure requires something of you and i. And so the fact that you're getting text messages and phone calls are because people are trying to join with you. They're trying to meet you here and that to me is the beauty of the way god has chosen to done it to do it because if you didn't have any of that it was only on god then we would just be like no god's got it. Yeah, all Jeff has to do is pray that prayer and then his wife will be healed and you know I mean and then but because it's correct to just be Jeff just pray it like do the thing rights pray the prayer but because it's not people are entering into this pain with you which I would say is.
23:41.98
forestandtrees
Yeah, it wouldn't write. It wouldn't even be a phone call because we'd get would fix it before breakfast. Yeah, ah.
23:56.52
Jeremy
Ah, more beautiful way to exist in community. But I don't know I think these are one of those things where you just kind of acknowledge the beauty and the mystery and the messiness and try to avoid needing the easy answers that we we tend to crave. In these kind of moments of like why? why? Yes to this? Why No to that like you know I mean just like what are you doing.
24:22.47
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, no I I mean I appreciate that about you Jeremy ah like I said before we start recording and I knew you wouldn't try to offer easy answers or anything like that. Um, so yeah, appreciate you processing it processing through all this with me. Um, oh one thing I wanted to mention was so um, of course we met with a lot of doctors and nurses and stuff and there was one nurse in particular who we were getting into conversations and I mentioned the podcast to him and so he has some talks about theology and stuff like that and I asked him what? so well he. He brought up to me that like oh yeah I see people die all the time you know he's like I saw someone just complete completed a triathlon just died the next day and he's like yeah I take I take bodies to the morgue every day and so I asked him. Okay, so um, but he's that he still believed in god so I asked him so like have you ever seen anything like miraculous happen. Or anything like that because you you see people who are sick and like and and dying and in desperate situations every day and so he told a couple stories about times when he was in a couple different close calls it with car accidents when at 1 point he said he felt like hands like lift him out of the way to like save him from from. Being killed in a car crash. Ah, which was interesting because it reminded me of a story that I mentioned before that my grandfather had about some feeling like physical hands pull him out of the way. Um also thought it was interesting that he he didn't have any stories of patients in the hospital that he sees every day being healed. Um.
25:45.30
Jeremy
Are.
25:55.83
forestandtrees
But something he said that I really liked was he said prayer allows the body to relax the body can't heal itself while it's stressed which ah was was meaningful to me I realize it's a very like non theist. It's a very like you know placebo effect kind of thing. But it's it's sort of rang true to me. Um, going back to what I was saying earlier with the thoughts and prayers thing because that's another kind of maddening thing about when you have a loved one who is sick and there's just there's nothing you can do you know like the doctors are are trying to help but they don't even know what to do at least in the earlier stages. And you know people are constantly texting me asking. What can what can we do? What can we do you know people sent flowers like I stopped everyone from sending food because like yeah, we we're getting food in the hospital. We don't we don't need like a million casseroles in our apartment right now? Um, but yeah I mean I appreciate that that's just.
26:33.86
Jeremy
Ah.
26:51.77
forestandtrees
The way it goes of like you wish there was something you could do So. That's why you pray because then you feel like okay at least I did something you know like I put in a good word for you and as as the nurse was saying prayer allows the body to relax the body can't heal itself. Well, it's stressed so like maybe there is literally a physical. Um, connection to that where you know a reason why we need to sort of what's the word like delegate the the healing process to someone else like if if I've prayed about it now I can rest assured that I've done everything I can do and now I can just focus on healing. I Don't know what if you have any thoughts on that.
27:31.30
Jeremy
Well I would agree with that at a at a base level. Yeah I think that there are there are tangible physical aspects of prayer for sure I would go beyond that because I would say if that's all it is then you know essentially you're arguing deism which is.
27:37.60
forestandtrees
Um.
27:49.16
Jeremy
That you know there may be a god but god is distant and removed and not involved in the day to day which isn't who I know you know in my experience with Jesus um, but I would say even when I'm praying to Jesus I still there. There are physical like I can tell you know I've had a great prayer time. My I can tell.
27:49.82
forestandtrees
Um.
28:09.50
Jeremy
And one of the things I've shared is like this prayer that I've been into lately is this like ah one of the ancient prayers of christianity and so it's just like this short little prayer and um, you know it literally just is this idea like Lord Jesus Christ son of god have mercy on me a sinner and. Pray that over and over but what I've learned is that's a really good prayer to like recenter me when I'm off and ah I tend to pray this when I when I start feeling judgmental against someone like in real time and um, there's this person at the gym who just. Annoys me and whatever I see her I just I can feel like inside of me just getting annoyed at this person and it like I've just used that as like a trigger for me of like all right? You are not thinking Jesus thoughts right? now you are like letting some other version of you.
28:50.66
forestandtrees
Um.
29:07.30
Jeremy
Takeover and so I will start praying that prayer when I see this woman like Lord Jesus Christ son of god have mercy on me a sinner and I'll just pray over and over until I start to literally feel something in me shift which is just I'm recentering myself on I'm not looking at this person the way. That god sees them and I am acknowledging that and I'm inviting god to focus on I'm a sinner i' I'm the issue you know I mean so that I would say it's a that's exactly what that nurse is saying to you like there's something physically happening to me as I'm saying that now is that a placebo because I'm delegating it to god.
29:34.98
forestandtrees
Um.
29:45.30
Jeremy
Sure I'm I'm good with that I would also say in addition to that I think the holy spirit meets me in that right? and that's like a ah way to practice the fruit of the spirit like I'm in this moment and I'm acknowledging like I need you like I'm not.
29:47.27
forestandtrees
Um, right.
30:02.60
Jeremy
I'm not thinking the way I should be thinking toward this person I'm not treating them not thinking of them the way I I want to ultimately and you know that's a way to do that and so I think yeah at a minimum prayer has that which is I think intriguing to hear from you. You know as a skeptic atheist. Whatever you want to call yourself these days.
30:17.19
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, extra extra angry these days.
30:21.11
Jeremy
Ah, to say these extra angry version of you to still say that you like find value in it I think is incredibly interesting and then I think it makes room for anyone who wants to believe in God and say I think this is like real then you build off of that premise and you add a whole bunch of other things when then. You know the God I see in scripture literally responds to things that we pray which not all the time and not in a formula and God is not a genie that you know you rubbed a lamp and you get you get what you asked for but enough. So.
30:46.34
forestandtrees
Um.
30:51.86
forestandtrees
Um.
30:57.81
Jeremy
Where I think it matters and so I don't I think it's kind of an interesting. It's interesting area to find common ground I Guess where we can all kind of agree on like the the foundational premise of prayer and then build off of it from there. Maybe.
31:11.78
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, um, okay I want I want to say a couple other just nice things maybe to wrap this up and I mean if you have more things to say you can feel free. Ah what was I going to say well ah something I probably should have said from the beginning is just general acknowledgement that like obviously what i'm. What I've been going through is not unique at all and it is not like the worst suffering anyone has ever experienced. You know I I saw lots of people in the hospital I know just throughout human history as you've said everyone suffers. Everyone has a loved one who goes through sickness and some often. Pass away from sickness. Everyone has prayers that don't get answered so just wanted to acknowledge. You know this? This was my moment of experiencing some kind of suffering but it's it's not unique, but hopefully other people who are going through this can I don't know find something to relate to here. Ah okay, okay, some odd. So I have another um family friend who she's an older woman who her husband has been battling cancer for several years and I remember like having conversation with her a couple years ago where she was saying like god has just been so good through this. He's been so faithful I just know that he's with me and the reason I know. But she didn't say the reason she said like he just knows exactly which song to put on the radio and it's like it's just the perfect song to like make me feel encouraged and you know like in in that moment I was being polite and smiling and nodding in my head I was thinking. That's like this too Bris thing I've ever heard like.
32:44.60
forestandtrees
So you're saying God is allowing your husband to die of cancer because he's messing around with the radio. You know? Yeah yeah Dejay God Um, and then like this this past couple week like I became that person you know like as I was driving home from the hospital Just you know the.
32:47.51
Jeremy
Is a deejay.
33:04.29
forestandtrees
The song that came on that was as soon as I plugged my phone in was just so because I was in this heightened emotional state. It was so like emotionally overwhelming. It's like yeah I could just burst into tears right now. So like I I just all that to say like I I still don't really share that perspective of like It's a good use of god's time to make the right song come on the radio but just to say like I appreciate people who are going through this this thing and like you know our brains are meaning making machines and like it's it's just inevitable that we're going to make these connections and say like. Oh yeah, that was exactly the song I needed to hear at this time or like we needed to go through this tough time because it made our relationship somewhat stronger or whatever it is again I know I'm I'm giving my like secular non-christian perspective on it. But you know just wanted to say like you know we're. We're all the same. We're all people just navigating this this planet together and okay, what just 1 more just nice thing to say or something that that truly did give me comfort from the mouth of the person of Jesus is the phrase. And all your worries add a single moment to your life that that was something I just kept reflecting on and thinking about ah throughout this whole experience because that was kind of my full time job was just to sit there and worry and think about like what what is the good of worrying what good does worrying do. It's not.
34:18.57
Jeremy
M.
34:37.50
forestandtrees
Helping anyone really so that that was a meaningful helpful thing for me to repeat to myself of being there for my wife not being completely consumed in worry and trying to get through this situation.
34:50.75
Jeremy
So you're saying even in your angry atheist moment Jesus was speaking hope for you who who I like it Jeff I like it.
34:58.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, you certainly could say it that way for sure.
35:07.85
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah I think I've got enough you know I think I've got enough my my thoughts vented out there. Yeah, do you have any other fall of questions or any other thoughts about this whole experience.
35:12.34
Jeremy
You feel better. Ah.
35:18.51
Jeremy
I Appreciate just your transparency here because I think you know I think it it would be easy to and you're I mean you're acknowledging that this wasn't like you've you've returned to the fold and you know you're you're attending church on the weekends now. But. Even in your angry atheist Moment. You are obviously heightened you know to potentially what God might be doing and so I just I think that's cool and it's a reminder for all of Us. You know the reason why I think these kind of conversations about theology matter is not because um. You know, hey, let's all be theology nerds and read really dense books and geek out on it. It's because when life happens we're going to try to make sense of it and you make sense of it based on who you think God is how you think the world works right? You know it's like these become the fundamental building blocks of how you navigate. Moments of pain and that's why all these conversations matter of okay well what kind of a God Are you following and what do you think that God expects of you and how does that God work and you know I've heard some just horrendous theology. Um, from Christians you know in moments of Pain. We're like yeah well. God Decided to you know, kill my spouse because that's that reveals the glory of God you're like whoa whoa like no like let's that's not who God you know? and but if you haven't figured it out and you haven't spent the time to like process it then yeah God can be responsible for anything.
36:38.12
forestandtrees
Um.
36:51.10
Jeremy
Reminds me I have ah had a lady at her last heart. Not 2 communion event ago um had turned in a card and basically said that she's been really wrestling with god since her husband died and hasn't been able to make sense of it and you know has been. Kind of just asking those same questions of like why didn't god do this and why didn't god show up and you know for her it was not answered at all the way she wanted it and so I just think there's a lot of people that you know there's there's not good explanations for. But. The the goal should be a reminder for all of us of life is filled of you know pain and suffering and you know it. It's in our best interest to have spent the time to process through what kind of a god do we believe in and how do we navigate moments like this and so. Think it's cool that even in your 8 your anger atheist moment. You're literally thinking about words of Jesus from your previous life. So I just think I think that's cool.
37:53.80
forestandtrees
Yeah, so to be to be fair is is kind of hard to avoid Jesus in this because it was a catholic hospital so there was a like a crucifix on in every um room.
38:00.23
Jeremy
Yes, so Jesus is body was everywhere. Well wow. Nice.
38:08.20
forestandtrees
He was everywhere. Yeah and they did devotions over the loudspeaker every morning and night. Yeah, there was a there was a chapel ah like connected to the hospital that was just like open to like sit and pray or whatever in there and they had a statue of Jesus offering his hands like showing the scars. Um, so I got some selfies with that of course and they had like pictures of the pope on the wall of like I guess like popes have visited this hospital like over the years and stuff like that. So yeah that it was very I think it would have been front of mind anyway, but it was also kind of impossible to ignore at this particular hospital. Yeah.
38:41.62
Jeremy
Ah, nice. The Catholic catholics had it figured out for you.
38:47.80
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, absolutely all right? Well Jeremy appreciate you appreciate you pushing through this episode being willing to just like talk about stuff. You know, unscripted I didn't I didn't give you any of these questions ahead of time that you probably could have guessed a little bit of where we're going to go with this I assume but yeah, you're you're a true friend and and a brother in Christ and I appreciate you. You talking me through all this stuff.
39:20.74
Jeremy
Ah, hey it's what if you can't if you can't use your podcast to to vent through some things in front of you know other people then what's the point right.
39:32.41
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, so absolutely oh I guess one more time I'll say thank you to the listeners. You guys are great if if you have been following along sequentially thank you for your patience as we unannounced took a couple weeks off. I'm sure you'll understand and forgive us for that and ah, you know if if you're only interested in Romans and you listen to this think. Thanks for sorry to take us a huge do yeah sorry to take a huge detour then and not talking about the sex of romans at all. Ah, yeah, well, we'll get back to romans real real soon.
39:55.38
Jeremy
Thanks for sticking through a bonus upset.
40:04.41
Jeremy
We'll get back to romans.
40:08.67
forestandtrees
Real soon. All right? ah take care be well see you later.