Romans 5 - Adam & Pig

It’s Adam & Eve, not Apeman & Evolution am I right folks? Jeremy and Jef debate who’s better between Bob Dylan or Underoath, and which film is better, Tombstone or Pig. We also talk about the Bible

Irresistible By Andy Stanley

Topics
Is Jef on an Epic journey towards salvation?
What about those who feel disappointed in their salvation?
Did Jesus come at the right time?
Is Adam Literal? Does the resurrection need to be literal?
Is original sin a thing?
Are we born perfect? 

We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at ​​forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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Transcript

00:01.88
Jeremy
What's up everyone we are back Jeremy and Jeff the dynamic duo how you doing today. Jeff.

00:08.22
forestandtrees
My knuckles have turned to why there's no turning back to night because this is Romans 5

00:20.92
Jeremy
That's so good and I'm gonna have to explain it because I I get what you're doing there but I don't I don't know if anyone else will so so this week I was wondering where this was gonna go because this week Jeff asked me.

00:26.17
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's hear your explanation for what that was.

00:38.65
Jeremy
Ah, about my favorite band and we were talking about. You know he he got into music last week on the on the pod romans 4 found doubt I wasn't a dylan fan I think Jeff's still harboring some some secret grudge against me for that. But then he asked about my favorite band who is under oath.

00:46.53
forestandtrees
Um.

00:56.83
Jeremy
And that was Jeff's cover of an underrow song sounds slightly different than they than they do it but you you got it. You got it in the ballpark and you added romans 5 in which they don't they don't do that but you made it rhyme so kudos to you that was great. That was a great opener.

01:00.55
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:12.95
forestandtrees
Oh thanks Yeah I've been I've been on a real journey of discovery this week because yeah I would honestly just that the day after we recorded last week I was kind of upset at you for being so dismissive of Bob Dylan and thinking like how can I like convince Jeremy to get into Bob Dylan because it's it's good stuff. You don't know what you're missing. And then I thought well maybe the more christian thing to do was is to um, seek more to understand that to be understood. So I thought instead of trying to move you over I'll try to listen to some under oath and see where you're coming from and see if I can gain a better understanding that way.

01:48.79
Jeremy
That's so Jesus like of you so did it work. How did how how did it affect you.

01:50.59
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, thank you? Yeah yeah, like I said this they held up better than I expected them to you know it really brought me back to kind of my high school days of like church Basements. You know girl Jeans swoopy hair that whole screamo scene. Um, and I I felt like oh my gosh. This music is going to be as cringy as the the kind of emo haircuts were back in the mid 2000 but I don't know yeah these these guys you know they're they're legit ah instrumentalists they. Have a lot of passion and I feel like in some ways. Maybe I'm more of an angry teenager now than I was back when I was a teenager. So Maybe it resonates more with me at the stage in life. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

02:35.54
Jeremy
Catching up for lost time. Yeah I mean I think you know just starting every episode off with you covering an under O song would be great. The so many hits? yeah.

02:43.16
forestandtrees
Yeah, they've got they've got a big catalog at this point they've released like 4 albums since the last time I listened to them so lot of catching up to do it? Yeah yeah, sure I was I was dumb.

02:54.73
Jeremy
They've changed a bit since then too they're they're no longer christians.

03:03.12
forestandtrees
Looking and looking into some interviews and um, you know, kind of oral histories of under oathth videos as well. And yeah, it's it's interesting to see their journey because I'd I'd heard like people talk about that like just on social media and stuff but I wasn't really keeping up with it until this week when I was kind of going back to see what that was all about. So. Yeah, yeah, I've related to their journey in a lot of ways which was cool.

03:24.74
Jeremy
That's funny whenever you know I was as a lead pastor. Someone would say oh what's your favorite band. You know, ah you you probably won't like them. No no, no tell me pastor. You know it's like now I know I don't think it's your style I then like if someone would push I'm like all right. Band called under Oath. You know they? oh we're gonna go look it up I'm like I don't think you should and then you know look come back. That's angry music. Why are they so angry and you know for a while you're like well they're they're angry for Jesus you know and then after after a little after I'm like yeah they don't. They don't follow Jesus anymore and ah, yeah, now they cuss in their songs but it was interesting I did use them in a sermon one time this is true I I wasn't playing on sharing this but I didn't I didn't know you're going to cover under oath.

04:10.37
forestandtrees
Ah.

04:10.90
Jeremy
I showed a video of the there's 2 lead singers 1 screams and 1 sings and and they had this video talking about why they left christianity and I still remember one of the lines Aaron the singer who also plays drums said.

04:15.81
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah.

04:25.97
Jeremy
Um, if we were still christian or if I was still a christian today I would probably be dead and just saying he had to for his own growth and his own health mentally get out of the church and I showed that video in a sermon just said this is someone telling you their story.

04:29.28
forestandtrees
M.

04:44.90
Jeremy
Who has been in the church and doesn't have a story of hope for it doesn't have a story of how good it was. He's literally saying the community almost killed him you know of just the judgment all that and so it was tried to use it as like a sobering moment for all of us like you know as a church community you were were capable of so much like either. Really good or really bad and yeah, all thanks to under oath making that point for us today.

05:07.77
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Well so we have a lot. We have a lot to get to here Jeremy Do you think we should maybe jump into the episode.

05:12.67
Jeremy
Oh nice, nice. Thanks for wow. Look at that transition Jeff getting us back all right? Jeff fine. We'll talk about romans chapter 5

05:20.59
forestandtrees
I mean I mean we could talk about under oathth for an hour but I mean is this what the people came here to to hear.

05:25.61
Jeremy
Maybe how do you know? How do you know? they're not here for the under oath content nonetheless Today we're gonna talk about how christians deal with disappointment how god timed when.

05:30.58
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's true. So write in. Let us know.

05:43.96
Jeremy
To send Jesus whether the resurrection literally happened and just gonna explore whether Paul still disagrees with my explanation on original sin that I've given previously so before we get into Jeff's wonderful questions I would like to set the tone for today. With romans chapter 5 verse 2 Paul's got some good news for us and let's just let's just soak this in for a second Paul says because of our faith Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege. There's a phrase for you where we now stand. And we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing god's glory undeserved privilege jeff love it. Love it. So good.

06:29.82
forestandtrees
Yeah, check your undeserved privilege.

06:36.55
Jeremy
And then after that he gets into the section that I'd like to ask you about but I want to I'm going to share something first of my own experience lately verses 3 through 5 Paul says we can rejoice to when we run into problems and trials for. We know that they help us develop endurance.

06:45.24
forestandtrees
Um.

06:55.48
Jeremy
And endurance develops strength of character and character strengthens our confident hope of salvation and this hope will not lead to disappoint. So Paul's making an argument here little little logic equation problems and trials lead to endurance to leads to character which leads to confident hope. In salvation and faith in who Jesus is now I'll forget about you know you and I we we have our problems and our trials and some of them may be similar. Some may be different one of the things I've referenced throughout this podcast is that. I I post these clips each week little bite size clips usually a minute you know or less and I get all sorts of comments from people that don't like they're not listening or subscribing to the actual podcast. They're finding me randomly through the algorithm you know on Tiktok or Youtube or something and so I just get these random comments and you know anytime Jeff.

07:48.35
forestandtrees
Um.

07:50.97
Jeremy
Suggest we need to bring in someone really conservative onto the show. You know to like balance our perspectives I always just you know usually pipe back of like those guys are all over the web. They're everywhere. So Jeff I want to I want to let you in on some of my problems and trials I'm gonna give you 4 just I just picked 4 from this is from this week okay this is not I've been digging through archives of what I've been you know told on the podcast. This is a week old Jeff from just last week this is from romans chapter 4 clips here's a few things that I've heard here.

08:20.68
forestandtrees
Um.

08:28.70
Jeremy
Here are my problems and trials 1 person said yeah, that's the worst advice I've ever heard how silly do you sound another person said read the early church fathers. Another person said try substantiating the claim of god and your beliefs. Before speaking on them and my favorite you deny god putting god in a box by.

08:57.29
forestandtrees
By.

09:00.10
Jeremy
Ah, by I got I got byde so Jeff that's a little bit of what I'm of of my problems in trials and hopefully they're creating endurance which is gonna create character which is gonna produce even more confident hope.

09:15.22
forestandtrees
Yeah.

09:16.10
Jeremy
This Jesus I have but I was thinking this is a little tongue in cheek but I was thinking is it possible that your current I don't know what we want to call it season stage of life era of of being alive your phase. Whatever okay.

09:29.38
forestandtrees
It's my it's my email phase. Let's let's be honest.

09:33.69
Jeremy
Is it possible that you are currently on an epic journey into your own confident hope of salvation and all of these problems and trials you have with Jesus right now are all just leading you down the road to endurance and character and confident hope could it be possible.

09:51.22
forestandtrees
Yeah, yes, yes, anything's possible and I certainly like to think of myself as someone who's on a journey because I feel like with I mean certainly with religion but with all sorts of things I feel totally undecided and not sure where I land on all kinds of issues. I I would just has I'm hesitant to say that I've endured any kind of suffering or trials or tribulations. You know I would say unless you can count like kind of existential emotional things like angst and disillusionment and those types of things you know I suppose that's. That's been the the trials I've been through in terms of my thoughts on religion. But yeah I haven't I haven't suffered physically at All. So I don't really want to complain too much about those kinds of things.

10:41.48
Jeremy
Paul doesn't say suffering in verse 3 he says problems in trials Jeff just problems and trials which I think all of us at some level can go yeah I got problems I got trials I got things I'm working on right? It doesn't matter.

10:45.50
forestandtrees
M.

10:58.43
Jeremy
You know your walk of life or what you believe or any everybody you know has got problems for all so I don't know they just made me think that's something we all have in common when we you know, look at this. But I I suppose they don't I suppose not everyone would agree that they arere going to produce endurance and character and. Confident hope right? like that would be the part that you'd say Yeah, maybe trials don't lead to that.

11:22.83
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean I I think they certainly can you know like the the adage. What doesn't kill. You makes you stronger and um, that kind of thing I mean yeah I think that I mean I agree with this sentiment that by thinking about these things you know and and like pushing back on things I disagree with you know i. Ideally, that will make me a stronger hopefully smarter more thoughtful person than if I just kind of passively just consume. Whatever is is fed to me. So yeah, hopefully I'm getting stronger you know I don't know where I'm where I'm going to end up if I'm going to become a stronger. Christian by coming back to christianity at the end of all this or yeah or'll end up somewhere else who's to say but you know hopefully I'll be a ah big strong beef cake wherever I end up.

12:04.90
Jeremy
Mm.

12:12.20
Jeremy
Ah, nice. Do you do you get angry comments when you post video clips from this podcast or is that just me.

12:18.61
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean a little bit I got you because I got one where I was like called like complaining about Paul being misogynistic and someone said like only weak men um call what would call Paul A.

12:32.20
Jeremy
Right? right.

12:32.81
forestandtrees
Misogynist or or dismiss him for having like a dated worldview something like that and I kind of clap back on that by saying like um yeah, I'm a I'm a weak person but I I rejoice my weakness because when I'm weak I'm strong because that's a quote from Paul. Ah so I was happy with that. You know I feel like you know if. If you're gonna if you're gonna play in the social media space. You have to deal with the trolls right? That's that's part of the package for sure. yeah yeah I did get i.

12:57.18
Jeremy
Yeah, it does come with the territory and it's good. It's good for views.

13:05.53
forestandtrees
It is yeah it's It's a little bit of the poison chalice of like I'd I'd give anything for for more engagement on this platform including negative comments. Yeah yeah, be be careful what you wish for? yeah.

13:10.77
Jeremy
Yeah, if so if you get the engagement you want it will for sure bring the haters as part of that engagement.

13:24.55
forestandtrees
Ah, all right? Well I have a question for you. That's regarding this same passage specifically in verse 5 when it says this hope will not lead to disappointment for you know how dearly god loves us because he has given us the holy spirit to fill our hearts with love this. This is something I've been thinking about for just. Forever and I wanted to ask you about it and I feel like this is the closest I found to a bible verse that kind of talks about this this idea that we that we hear about all the time in christianity of fulfillment through Christ or like you know, nothing else satisfies in this life. But only Jesus can fulfill. You. Idea of being filled with the holy spirit and a hope that it doesn't disappoint and it reminds me of speaking of social media a post I did for it was originally going to be for the 4 centuries account but I ended up connecting it to my own personal. Ah Instagram account and then it ended up on my own personal Facebook account because it it felt like I was kind of. Talking about more more of my personal thinking pain struggles like we were just talking about and I got a lot of comments. Ah from people on Facebook you know like old friends from bible college who I haven't talked to in like 10 years who are like hey man do you want to grab coffee like let me explain to you how christianity is not not so bad and you know. All these things which they they were all very kind just just to be clear. Everyone was was nice and chill about it. No one that there was only 1 person who kind of accused me of like well maybe you did it wrong and that person literally texted me before commenting like he texted me and said hey Jeff is it. Okay, if i.

14:58.50
forestandtrees
Comment on your Facebook posts. Ah yeah, yeah, and I gave them the go ahead. So you know that's as as far as internet trolls go that's as um, that's as polite as it gets so anyway, just ah what what I wanted to say is like I feel like christians are always talking about this right? like.

14:59.18
Jeremy
Is it? Okay, if I slam you publicly.

15:17.57
forestandtrees
Only god and the holy spirit can fulfill you and like as Paul says this this hope will not disappoint. But I wonder like what would you say to someone who does feel those feelings of emptiness who does feel disappointed. Even though theoretically, they're supposed to feel fulfilled and filled with the holy spirit.

15:36.22
Jeremy
I would say welcome you're in good company I think this you know this is one of those kind of like side effects of how the prosperity gospel has bled into the way we understand a lot of christianity of you know if you have the right faith and you're you're. The right kind of Christian you know you'll be healthy, wealthy and wise and your kids will have straight a's and be you know, great and we just kind of assume like if you're doing it right? like things should work out and I think that's garbage theology in so many ways and I just think just logically you know Jesus was disappointed too. I mean you find this all throughout the gospels I think even even a like gesemane. You know when he's like just asking them just hey can you guys just stay awake with me like I got something really heavy coming up I'd rather not be alone and like they're all falling asleep repeatedly on him. You know, just like disappointment like oh okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to do this alone like you guys. You guys are just too tired so just like examples like that where you just go. Oh no Jesus Jesus felt disappointment too. But I think if you you know ask the flip side like okay what would it be like if we didn't have any disappointment in life. If like if you if the moment you became a christian.

16:50.97
forestandtrees
Um.

16:52.43
Jeremy
It truly was there. You have no more disappointment I would say you you weren't you would not be living on earth anymore like you would not be in this thing that we call life because you would you'd be experiencing something wholly other than life as we know it and I would say yeah that's going to happen to Evan. Ah, Jesus will redeem all things and every disappointment we have at that point will be redeemed into something greater but shy of that. It's not that's not what this life is and I don't think Jesus ever promised us otherwise and this is where I think people somehow. Elevate Paul above jesus of like no, but Paul said it's like yeah I will keep this in mind of things that Jesus said and let's put it all into perspective right? And so Jesus says in John 1633 I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. That's good. Okay, we're out peace here on earth. You're gonna have many trials and sorrows but take heart I have overcome the world like look you're gonna have a piece and I would say peace you can have that in the midst of a trial in the midst of a disappointment you can still have that piece. But you know you're you're gonna have that and that's to be expected right? when we follow Jesus. And I love something that Dr Martin Luther King Jr said I think this is so good. He said we must accept finite disappointment but never lose infinite hope we must accept finite disappointment but never lose infinite hope and I think that's

18:22.20
Jeremy
That is what it means to be Christian is to say I'm going to experiences by I'm gonna have things that don't make sense to me and I would say anyone who has followed Jesus and is willing to be honest with you will have a disappointment story of I can't explain this. This didn't you know. I I asked for this healing I prayed this prayer and didn't get the answer. You know there's just so many of these and to somehow create a christianity that absolves you of that is is not christianity I think we go back to Jesus Jesus like yeah, you're gonna have this, you're gonna experience this but take heart. I've overcome this and ultimately we put our hope in Jesus and that's how you that's how you carry your disappointment. You carry it in this this suitcase of hope if you will and I think that's that's the christian response to something that Christian or not, you're going to experience.

19:13.71
forestandtrees
Yeah that's that's beautifully stated I guess I would ask? Um, so this this thing I'm talking about that that Paul is talking about of just this this feeling of fulfillment through the holy spirit or like the the joy like 1 of the fruits of the spirit is joy is that sort of a myth or is that something that's like. Not guaranteed for for all believers like isn't that supposed to be evidence that you have the holy spirit in you if you are filled with joy. For example.

19:38.49
Jeremy
Well I would say it's definitely it. It is a fruit of the spirit right? So it is something that you would hope to be evident but you know so is patience and I know a lot of christians who I would describe as very impatient people. And so I wouldn't say you don't have Jesus I would just say that fruit of the spirit may not be as evident in your life and you know the goal of all those are not things you just snap your fingers and you say I'm now going to be a Joyful person today like that's not how this works what it I think you do is you say hey Jesus this is something I'm not naturally good at. Like maybe I'm not a joyful person I don't experience a lot of joy and then that becomes an area where you invite Jesus to say hey could you make me more joyful could your spirit allow and produce more joy in my life and that could be you know an area where you invite god to move in your life and if you're that person on the flip side. You're like I'm not. Ah, patient person I'm very impatient I would say let that be a prayer that you have then I'm like god this is a fruit of the spirit. It's lacking in my life I want to you know I want to have more evidence in my life and you know all of us could look at that list and go yeah, that's the one for me that I'm just not really good at and so I think if if the person is saying. Hey I just don't feel a ton of joy I would say there's nothing inherently wrong with that that might be the one for you that you know, just really seek god in that and ask god to transform that area and I also think some of that's temperament. You know I think there are people who walk around and they've perpetually got a smile on their face.

21:08.62
Jeremy
There's other people who have you know Rbf if you know what that stands for and you know and that's just their that's their their demeanor like it's like the the way their faces and so I think some of it is you know you may compare yourself to like someone who's naturally chipper and joyful all the time and go I don't.

21:13.29
forestandtrees
Ah.

21:26.40
Jeremy
Don't have that something's wrong. He's like well you may not be wired like that person and joy might look different to you and you know I would say I'm not the bubbly joy person. But I also don't don't think that it means I haven't experienced joy I Just don't necessarily experience it the the way some other people do.

21:42.61
forestandtrees
Yeah, and what do you? So Do you think that Christians in general like should feel differently from Non-christians like should should there be some evidence of the holy spirit in some some way or would you say not necessarily like is it possible to be a Christian your whole life and ah to pray for Joy. For example, your whole life. And never get it and is that is that like a reasonable expectation.

22:06.81
Jeremy
That's a great question I would say yeah ah because you know god doesn't work on formulas so there's no guarantee of anything you know so you could pray your whole life or joy and for whatever reason god might not answer that prayer the way you want it to be answered I would. To your other part of that question I would say yeah if you are a christian there should be something noticeably different in your life and that should be the result of the holy spirit and if the holy spirit is real which I believe the holy spirit is real and the holy spirit has character traits allah free to the spirit. Then yes, a person who is living in submission to what the holy spirit is trying to do should look differently than that person would look if they were an atheist like that is just a logical you know equation now if you look and go well christians. Aren't really looking different I would say yeah that that is a problem in christianity today. But it that goes back to the it was Tolstoy's you know the the drunk walk down the down the right road right? It's like the road is still the road but there's there's far too many christians walking it swerving from side to side.

23:11.81
forestandtrees
Um.

23:17.75
Jeremy
To to go back to a previous episodes analogy. But I think you still you still pray and again to me these days christianity has gotten like way simpler in the sense of it's not about believing the right things or having the right ideas on Xy and z as if we'll even know what that is i. I obviously spend time exploring that you know it's what we do here. But ultimately it's looking more like Jesus like submitting your life to him and looking more like him and the fruit of the spirit's a great way to measure that are these things evident in my life if not where can I invite Jesus to transform me and.

23:37.94
forestandtrees
Ah.

23:55.32
Jeremy
If you don't feel joy I would say that should be a prayer of yours you know hey God This is some I'm I'm recognizing is a fruit of your spirit I'm not really feeling it I would like to experience more of that. But I could also tell you there's plenty of things I've prayed for and God's never answered and you just go I don't know.

24:13.18
forestandtrees
Um, yeah yeah, I don't know either. It's it's interesting like it was I'm thinking about my my kind of emotional state before and after being Christian like I would say I I definitely like don't feel any better now necessarily but I don't feel worse either like I've I've seen a lot of stories of people. Ah, who leave christianity and they're like they feel so much better I would say ah the one advantage I've experienced is I do feel kind of the relief of being able to be honest with people because I feel like I went through a long stage of. Kind of still being in the christian circles and like having to kind of pretend that I believe things or like go along with things and just kind of smile and nod through a lot of stuff so that is a huge relief just just to be honest, you know like like Jesus says the truth will set you free. Um, that's a good feeling. But other than that I don't know like I felt like I have these feelings of emptiness in christianity and now I still have them outside so you know, ah just just personal anecdote there. Ah okay, so let's maybe we should Zoom out and talk about the the history.

25:03.78
Jeremy
All right. No I Appreciate one.

25:17.51
forestandtrees
Of human civilization in verse. Yeah yeah, let's get out of this personal ah depths of my own soul stuff. This is what the people came for so verse 6 says what when we were utterly helpless Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. So this reminds me of something that.

25:18.65
Jeremy
Wow. Okay, let's Zoom way out.

25:36.35
forestandtrees
I can't remember where I've heard it but I've heard a handful of like apologists or theologians talk about this idea of like god's timing right? when ah when it comes to like why did god send jesus right at the year zero two thousand years ago um and I've heard people make the argument of like this was the perfect timing from god's perspective because it was. It was like if you send someone at this point in Jerusalem. They can start a movement that will spread throughout the world or something like that I don't know it. It seems like ah a weird claim to me the more I think about it because yeah, it's it's been 2000 years at this point I mean christianity has been an impressive. Social movement and that it's it's one third of a global population is Christian currently but you would think if it was like the perfect timing they would have spread complete they would have finished the job by now right? and um, the whole world would be christianized so and also made me think like I don't know ah the the time it was sent. There was no obviously. Cameras there was no opportunity for video footage like if Jesus would have come and the resurrection would have happened in the modern day we could have spread the news much quicker or he could have come much much earlier when the global population was just 2 people. For example, he could have just send Jesus right after Adam and Eve Sinned or you know, right? when the tower of babel or when the flood was going to happen something like that. So what you know, kind of a high fluent theoretical question here Jeremy what's your understanding of god's timing when it comes to sending Jesus for his earthly ministry.

27:07.36
Jeremy
So you know it it depends on what's the criteria we're using to determine whether it was the right timing or the wrong timing right? If if the assumption is Jesus coming at the right time means the the whole world will be saved. Ah. In the sense of everyone will profess to be. You know a christian then I would say yeah, you'd have to argue it. It hasn't it hasn't worked in 2000 years then right? and if that was your gulf everyone needed to to see Jesus and say yes and yeah I would. I would definitely send Jesus earlier when the population's smaller and you have more of a chance to have everybody influenced or later when you can record it on Youtube and cast it you know out. But even then just like everything else you would have a very split reaction to even footage of Jesus today.

27:53.82
forestandtrees
Yeah.

27:58.28
Jeremy
And so I think I would I would take that criteria off the table and say I don't think that's the criteria god used and I don't think that's a criteria Paul's referencing when he says at just the right time I think of this more in light of progressive revelation. So this is something we've talked about ah okay so. if you're if you're god so from god's point of view at what point can I show people what I'm really like that's I think the the right time that god is is you know, considering that Paul's referencing here not to have everybody say yes to me, you know because I don't I don't know that's ever going to happen. So to me when Jesus came was the right time for them to to to be ready enough to go oh this is what god looks like and you know I think there were certain conditions that god wanted to be met to be able to display. Who god really is and that point in history you know was the was the perfect moment for god say all right now is the time I can I can reveal who I am so I would understand what Paul is saying here in light of progressive revelation. It is god saying you're ready now I can show you. And from that point of view. You want that to be as early as you can like you want to show what you're really like as fast as you can and so again, if if we look at from that point of view. You wouldn't want it to avoid it till now because that would have been another 2000 years people not knowing that god looks like Jesus.

29:29.39
Jeremy
And then you would say well why didn't he come 1000 years before that and well they weren't ready. They wouldn't have been able to understand it. They you know wouldn't have it wouldn't have made any sense to him and so I think that's what Paul's saying in in light of what god is trying to reveal all throughout history. Ah, which is this journey. The old testament tries to bring us along is that god ultimately looks like Jesus and at just the right time god was able to reveal that in the physical body of you know Jesus as he was born and walked and lived and died.

30:01.15
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's interesting. So it makes me think of kind of the ethics of Jesus' ' teaching like I got how his his ethics about like love your enemy and stuff like that are very radical in the way that he like challenges the status quo by by hanging out with sinners and stuff. You know, like like in some ways it it wasn't as much ahead of its time in terms of like he didn't say to set the slaves free and things like that. So I don't I don't know couldn't that have been some more somewhere like that that would have been like really impressive timing from my perspective if Jesus would have come and had all of these. Like like broken more of these social taboos from back in the day that would have like really challenged people. Do you know what? I mean.

30:42.70
Jeremy
Yes, and no I understand I understand the point you're making but I think again in that culture. You can't set the slaves free. They're not ready to hear that message that that wouldn't have sunk in obviously didn't sink in for many many years to come before that you know would be an idea that people go yeah, that's a good thing. You know, um I would say the ethics of Jesus absolutely undermined slavery. Um, so yeah, so I think Jesus did come and set that in place. But you know Jesus didn't come to reform rome he didn't come. You know to say hey we're gonna get better roman laws on the books.

31:03.67
forestandtrees
Um.

31:20.84
Jeremy
To try to you know set this this country right? It's like oh he was coming to do something totally other and that other has continued today and I think continues into the future and that's the point we are a part of this other ink of what is god doing and it is other than. America and it is other than any other government in this world and we're getting invited into this movement that then I take anything in my culture and I compare it to this and I go hey what doesn't make sense anymore and and so yeah I would say Jesus started all that and got all that rolling but he did it within rome of the time of which there were tons of cultural restraints. But I think you look at the way he empowered women the way he you know and even in early church do have this like thing this anti-slavery you know ridge going through it which sadly was hi jacked by a lot of slavers in America who said no, we're gonna read over this and. Make us say what we wanted to say and actually use the bible to support slavery I would say the actual ethics the opposite of that and yeah, again, it's one of those things you can make the bible say whatever you want the bible to say if you know you just want to take certain parts out of context and it happens all the time but it doesn't change I think this was god saying this is what I'm really like. You're ready to see it now and once you see this this will start a chain you know of of all sorts of effects that will continue on until Jesus comes back and I think we're a part of that same domino effect today.

32:48.61
forestandtrees
Yeah, so so I get I get that um like the society wasn't ready for it. They never would have accepted it but again wasn't that kind of the point of Jesus's ministry was like his ideas were so radical that that they killed him for it. So like why couldn't he have. Throwing that one in there as well.

33:04.56
Jeremy
I don't know Jeff I'm not Jesus I don't I don't have an answer as to why he didn't say other things he didn't say.

33:07.50
forestandtrees
Okay, oh well, that's disappointing.

33:15.15
forestandtrees
Yeah, ah ok, well, no, that's a no, that's a good answer. That's um, see you its obviously you disagree with them the did does that sound familiar to you? Do you feel like you've heard that argument before like Jesus timing was perfect in terms of. Within the scale of human civilization. Yeah yeah, total.

33:30.60
Jeremy
Right? And I would I would agree with you and shooting that down of well then it didn't work like you timed it wrong like why? Why is not everybody Christian today you know or how long would how long would that perfect time work for that to be everybody right? But again I don't think that's the goal. I don't I think that's the logic Paul's even using I think it's more from god's point of view saying all right now's the time now you can see it and again I would compare it to like a parent saying all right now. It's time to have the sex talk you know or whatever, whatever milestone with your kids like now you're ready for this.

33:49.51
forestandtrees
Um.

33:55.91
forestandtrees
Um.

34:05.12
forestandtrees
Um.

34:08.24
Jeremy
Determined You're ready. So now we're gonna We're gonna have a different experience or ah I'll say like I'm gonna get I might get super judged for this I won't post this clip ah on my my shorts this this this week so you have to if listen to the whole podcast to get this part. Ah.

34:23.19
forestandtrees
Yeah.

34:26.41
Jeremy
But one of the things that I've done with with my kids is like when they turn 13 they get to watch their first rated r movie with me and it's the movie tombstone and it's my favorite movie of all time so they add it to under oath of my all time favorite movie and it's like this special like again I think it's a pretty tame r rated movie.

34:37.19
forestandtrees
Oh Wow. Okay. Sure.

34:46.40
Jeremy
Especially in the light of what's other today but it's like a milestone of like you're 13 you're old enough now and you know I've done it with one of my kids and I have another kid in a couple months about to turn 13 and he's already pumped. He's ready. You know like we're going to watch this movie and it's like a little rite of passage. And so I think it's more from that kind of a lens of like all right? you are now ready for something. It's almost like humanity came of age and god's like now I get to show you something that you're ready for you know we're we're gonna have an adult conversation here. You weren't ready before.

35:15.79
forestandtrees
Yeah, that okay, yeah, that's interesting. It's kind of and it's you know, sort of being like just provocative enough right? like just pushing the envelopep a little bit to to propel humanity forward so to speak. Do you have a special like Jeremy edit of tombstone where they all become paciists at the end.

35:33.82
Jeremy
No, no, no Jeremy at it. No I have to knowledge and and I can acknowledge this and I explain this to my to my boys most entertainment movies music books you're gonna fictional stories. They involve revenge narratives.

35:34.29
forestandtrees
Lay their weapons down. Okay.

35:49.96
forestandtrees
M.

35:53.71
Jeremy
I mean I don't There's no way to remove that it is a cultural thirst. We have of the bad guys getting what is coming to them because the good guys are going to give it to him and so I just say like that is that's part of humanity we desire this. We crave it.

36:04.10
forestandtrees
Um.

36:09.21
Jeremy
Um, and so you know I try to teach my kids like hey you can watch us in a movie but understand like we don't own guns in this house. We're not going to go be wyater. We're not going to be doc holidays. We can watch it and hopefully separate that's a movie and you know that's something we can enjoy Val Kilmer in a stunning performance at docholiday. Ah, one of the greatest of all time and enjoy that enjoy that experience and yet also have the conversation of yeah, that's well that's a fun story to watch in a movie. That's not the way that's not the way god works not It's not the way that ultimately you know, healing happens and even like they'll watch something you know. Ah Marvel movie or something about war or whatever and it's like I have to like remind them like hey just just reminder like war is actually horrific and any of these movies that depict it as this awesome you know thing to go experience like talk to people who've actually been to war and you you hear a very different story.

37:01.25
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, don't don't take your guns to town son as ah as Johnny Cash would say have you seen the movie pig the nicholas cage movie where where's where's my pig. Oh yeah, he's the he's the greatest you kidding.

37:10.35
Jeremy
I'm I'm not a big Nicholas Gaage guy are you are you? Oh gosh now we've gone off the rails. Oh man thought that was Kirk Cameron

37:16.99
forestandtrees
Ah, this star of left behind Jeremy are you kidding me? Um, no, no, the reboot was nick cage but okay, this is this is my recommendation for you. You should check out the movie pig because this this fulfills my kind of thirst for like why can't we have like a nonviolent. Style revenge movie and that's like what this movie is about which is kind of a spoiler but that's the only way I can get you to to check it out. That's my recommendation to you. It's called pig yeah, it's it's it's pretty recent. It came out just couple years ago it it's it's a gray movie I love it. Yeah.

37:42.32
Jeremy
Pig The movie is just called Pig I've never even heard of this all right I got to go watch it now. What's it rated. Is it appropriate for kids or no.

37:55.18
forestandtrees
Um I think it's probably rated our yeah I don't know it's It's an adult movie like kids would probably think it's boring because because it's a thinker man. It's it's ah it's an intellectual journey. Ah yeah, with Nick cage. Yeah.

38:04.59
Jeremy
Ah, ah, good.

38:08.17
Jeremy
Wow with Nicholas Cage okay I hope we get a bunch of listener feedback on this movie.

38:15.00
forestandtrees
1 of them.

38:20.23
forestandtrees
Yeah, if you've seen Pig Ah right in let us know what you think? yeah it.

38:21.61
Jeremy
Is Jeff out to lunch or is is it the greatest greatest you know, kept secret from all of us.

38:31.82
forestandtrees
Yeah, and I'd love to I'd love to hear people's feedback on on my movie recommendations. Ah, let's do a bonus episode on it all right? So let's let's Zoom all the way back. Let's rewind to the to the beginning of human civilization now and talk about yeah talk about Adam and eve.

38:44.17
Jeremy
Okay, we're back in.

38:49.46
forestandtrees
Because um verse 14 says now Adam is a symbol or representation of Christ and so this is interesting because the whole like and the whole like second half of this chapter basically is talking about Adam Sin like ruined it for all of us and then Jesus had to come and and redeem us kind of thing. Um and I thought this verse. Ah. Ah, just full disclosure I realized I'm sort of taking it out of context here, but it just made me think about the idea. So Adam is a symbol made me think of this this concept that um you know a lot of more progressive christians are more familiar with of like there probably wasn't a literal Adam and eve. Um I certainly I was in that camp for many years I was at. Ah, non young earth um, literal six day creationist you know I like I I was like I think god is real and everything but I don't believe in I believe in I do believe in evolution. So I don't believe there's like a literal Adam and eve garden of eden kind of thing. Um, which which makes me wonder like what what was. Paul's view because Paul seems to be taking it pretty literally here saying like Adam Sin caused death to fall in all of the world anyway, so then it made me think well how far can we push it because this is a big discussion within christianity like what's literal. What's metaphor and it made me think okay, so if you can. I'm guessing you would agree. You don't need to believe in a literal Adam and eve to be a good christian can you can you believe in that that the resurrection was non-literal because this is something I heard more progressive christians say that Jesus didn't literally rise from the dead he metaphorically rose from the dead.

40:06.70
Jeremy
Oh.

40:23.64
forestandtrees
And defeated sin and death in some some poetic metaphorical way or whatever. So yeah, what are your thoughts on that.

40:32.53
Jeremy
Ah I think it's interesting that I think Paul is opening the door here to not believe in Adam literally so I just think that's an interesting you know I don't think well you're no, you're you're taking it.

40:38.84
forestandtrees
Oh so I'm not taking out of context. Nice.

40:49.59
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

40:49.75
Jeremy
In a direction. Paul is not taking it asking about Jesus but I'll grant. You. It's your your you know your' cohost on this. You can take it wherever you want to go? Ah so yeah, I'm all for not taking much of the old testament literally. Like I think if you just release the need to make everything literal in the old testament. It'll make so much more sense and if if you're hearing that and you're like I cannot believe the pastor just said that. You know what pushed me to that was studying the bible in seminary and going deeper and deeper and then my master's program and realizing that people who spend their entire life studying and writing and researching and you know nuencing all this they're they're some of the ones that are the most.

41:29.64
forestandtrees
Father.

41:45.37
Jeremy
You know the the strongest proponents of this is not a literal story. This is you know a figurative image here or a metaphor and you know you just you get into this and you go oh okay so it's it's just one view that this is all literal I do not think the Adam and eve story is a literal story I don't think. The flood story is a literal story I think these are our ancient near east ah you know stories about how did we get here and then I think years later in the babylonian captivity. The israelites finally wrote all this stuff down long after moses long after all these events happened and they took all the stories. They had inherited and they weave them together with their understanding of god and then pointed it. You know of this is how our god takes these stories and make them unique so I have no problem with that. But it means I don't need to take a lot of these stories literally. However I would say by the time you get to the new testament you're in a different era and a different genre and I I would say you do not have to make the argument. You know, either all the bible has to be literally true or none of it is literally true like that's a really bad way to read the bible. I you know I think as Brian Zaan was the first person I heard say this but like think about the old testament as based on true events. You know there are things that happened in the old testament that are historically provable. There's also a ton that's not and you've got this.

43:17.13
forestandtrees
It's kind of like kind of like tombstone right? just heavily embellished.

43:19.65
Jeremy
You know what? that's actually a great I like that I'm gonna I'm gonna take that that is a great metaphor because I love tombstone and I love that story and I've read I live in Arizona I've you know I'm I'm not I'm a couple hours away from Tucson I grew up this is like home for me right.

43:33.17
forestandtrees
O.

43:39.14
Jeremy
So I just always been fascinated by like tombstone. The wild west is like literally where I'm from. But if you read the books on it which I have a lot of the way tombstone the movie depicts. It is not accurate and that's fine. They you know they they keep enough of the the story. You know that you go yeah I understand the just of it. The bible especially the old testament is a lot like that where it's like yeah, there's enough of the main blots right? where you go. Okay, this happened but a lot of it. They're they're storytellers and I think they're brilliant storytellers trying to tell about a different god that they have experienced and using all these stories and again. The israelites weren't the only people that had a flood narrative and like you start reading all these and go oh other ancient near east cultures talked about a flood like this was a common thing and I don't even think the flood was worldwide I think it was a regional flood I mean it's like he's like getting into all these things you go? Oh. It's not you know the walls of Jericho I don't think are literal and.

44:30.58
forestandtrees
Um.

44:35.15
Jeremy
Whole cananite conquest like there's so many things that if you study it you get into to lots of issues where scholars will say yeah, this probably didn't literally happen. However I think if you apply that same thing to the life of Jesus you. Irreparably lose christianity and I don't think you'd have to do this at all I think you can read the old testament for what it is. It is a very different kind of document than what the new testament is totally different style of writing for most of it very different way of of recording it. Then the old testament was written down I think if you this is this is again just my take if you as a christian say I don't think that the resurrection has to be literally true I think you've lost something essential to christianity and so I'm all for looking at the old testament going. Yeah. You know parts of it are not literally true I think you need to as a christian say the resurrection literally happened Jesus literally walked literally you know was alive ah was killed by Rome and and literally came back to life and all of that and one of the best books if you're going I just don't know if I could get there. 1 of the best books that I've read on it I think does a great job is Andy Stanley wrote a book called irresistible that basically figures out. How did we get to the christianity we have today you know if this didn't really happen and I think he makes a really compelling case of like if this none of this happened.

46:09.10
Jeremy
You wouldn't have christianity play out the way it did and again, not. It's not going to convince everybody. It certainly is a compelling book to me to go? Yeah I think this makes a lot of sense I ended up when I was a lead pastor I preached on this book. Not even thinking much about it like because if you know in the church world Andy Stanley is pretty middle of the road. He's not considered a progressive. You know he's not He's not as conservative as they come, but he's by no means cutting edge on on you know theology. But I got lit up for doing that book and he got lit up for writing this book and I mean literally people left our church over this.

46:33.49
forestandtrees
Ah.

46:48.70
Jeremy
And I was so surprised by that. Um, but the reason they left is because they felt like if you understand Stanley's argument and irresistible then it elevates Jesus so far beyond what the old testament is that it discredits the old testament and it goes back to. You know oh I can believe this is literal and not believe that the old testament's literal and this book really helps you navigate that and that was the you know I had 1 guy in our church. The guy was incredible and you know super super volunteer and all this and he literally said he just said Jeremy I love the old testament I read the old testament every day and I just love love it and. I can't be a part of a church that isn't just gonna celebrate the old testament and I remember that was just such a weird comment to me like I just had never I mean like I know you know I can think of like my seminary professors that taught old testament courses were probably some of the most.

47:32.37
forestandtrees
Um.

47:45.79
Jeremy
Old testament obsessed christians that I yeah had ever met right? Like they just loved work and I teach exodus 5 times a year you know it's my favorite book of the bible. You know it's like okay well you're Christian but you love this but to meet a christian that literally. Is obsessed with the old testament after seeing Jesus I just I'm like I don't understand that. But I think that there there are there are people that love the old testament and I love the old testament but as it helps me understand Jesus because it's I definitely elevate Jesus so I think again my take would be you can you can. Navigate much of the old testament and not have it literal. But I I don't think you want to do that with with the person of Jesus.

48:25.30
forestandtrees
How the the theob bros are cheering right now Jeremy I feel like this this is kind of a first for a podcast because normally I come in you know with my liberal postmodern garbage and say like are you sure we need to keep this stuff from the bible. Can we just throw this out I feel like this this might be the first time when you've really held your ground and said.

48:28.51
Jeremy
Are they.

48:44.93
forestandtrees
Nope This is a foundational thing. You need to keep this one So that's interesting.

48:47.33
Jeremy
Yeah, and I and again I I don't know I think you lose too much if you if you made this optional I think you lose too much of the essence of because again to me christianity is Jesus it's not.

48:55.20
forestandtrees
M.

49:03.10
Jeremy
All these things you believe and all these you know interpretations. It's it's what Jesus did what he accomplished and the story that you know launched christianity and that's you know Andy Stanley's argument in irresistible. The first sermons were all just they were just stories. Let me tell you what Jesus did he. You know I mean like that's all that's how christianity grew they just told that story over and over and over and over again and people went really that was god you know like oh we heard that and like oh and then like that's what you know and then over time we stopped thinking that the story was the important part and now it's all these beliefs that we have and I think no.

49:21.50
forestandtrees
Um.

49:38.10
Jeremy
The story. It's the person of Jesus and what he's done.

49:38.97
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's interesting I I ask like it's kind of interesting because I haven't like when I was a christian I never struggled with believing in the resurrection or the miracles of Jesus or anything I always thought just you know it seemed like. I knew there was the debate between like whether the resurrection literally happened as a historical event or not so I was aware of that but I it always felt like well the jury's out. You know you can't really prove it prove or disprove it because it was so long ago so I was always willing to accept that and for me, it was sort of like. Can believe in Jesus' ' miracles but like why are there? No miracles today was kind of like a stumbling block for me where it felt like you know Jesus did these miracles he said his followers could do the miracles I don't see that happening and all the miracle cases seem like. Highly disputed and not. You know, not as concrete as they were in bible times. Um, but anyway I don't know made me think about um samma I referenced many episodes ago with ah Philip cough he did. He did a podcast about secular christianity where he said like he identifies as a christian but he doesn't really. Believe in god or believe in any kind of miraculous stuff but just I don't know I don't know if it's just the the tradition the teachings the kind of the the if you just make everything a metaphor I suppose um, so that just kind of brings up an interesting question of like who you know.

51:01.26
forestandtrees
Where does the gatekeeping start of like who is allowed to be a Christian is everyone who identifies as a Christian a Christian or do you say if you don't believe in resurrection, you're not a real christian.

51:10.00
Jeremy
Well I don't think we are the gatekeepers so I don't I don't spend any time feeling I don't feel like the need to tell anyone if they are Christian not a christian I just point back to Jesus and go. Yeah I think this is important I think it's an essential part of what I believe.

51:20.10
forestandtrees
Yeah.

51:27.70
Jeremy
And if someone say well I'm a Christian I don't believe it I would say Okay, you know it's like all right if you're asking me I would say you should believe that like that part's important if you don't want to believe it? Okay, yeah I think it's.

51:35.24
forestandtrees
Okay, you had you had the theo bro support and you just lost it Jeremy look like what you did.

51:45.83
Jeremy
Ah, you couldn't just let me have them. You had to keep asking a follow up till I get gave in.

51:49.16
forestandtrees
Ah, unless unless you're a theobra who is who' a non get a non gettkeeper. You know we we welcome you as well. That's you're you're always welcome here. That's great, all right? Ah so let let's let's finish this chapter off with some more talk about. Adam's sin Christ's redemption verse eighteen says yes Adam's 1 sin brings condemnation for everyone but Christ's 1 act of righteousness brings a right relationship with god and new life for everyone. So I I wasn't a little bit of a pickle here because I feel like we already talked about original sin a couple episodes ago and you you stated your position very clearly I like what you had to say there but I feel like this chapter so much of it is about original sin once again and so I was trying to think of how how can I push back. Because I really feel like Paul is arguing that original sin is a thing here or at least like the curse of death or whatever. Um, you know if you want to call that something else and then we have ah a question from 1 of our followers on Instagram Greg Klut so thank you for writing in Greg and he was just asking a lot of questions about this this. Pon scum theology. We talked about in chapter 3 so he had kind of a series of questions I'll just read them here and you can respond to those since we were born in god's image does that mean we were born perfect like Jesus was are we perfect until we commit our first sin and after we become imperfect by skin by sinning.

53:16.62
forestandtrees
Do we still bear god's image. So what do you think about those questions in light of the end of chapter 5 here.

53:25.67
Jeremy
Yeah, other're good questions and ah you know I like the challenge of okay you know is Paul really just banging on this drum. What's going on here. Okay so let's just talk all right? So he keeps talking about Adam sin what about eve.

53:34.48
forestandtrees
Um.

53:39.65
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I was wondering that too.

53:41.92
Jeremy
Why why? no mention of eve isn't that interesting because as I recall the text she ate it first then gave it to Adam who was with her and they had you know a little illicit meal together. But there's no mention of eve. It's just Adam, what's going on here. I remember I was on a this is man twenty years ago now but mission trip to Nepal and I remember we went to this bible college in Nepal and so if you know Nepal is a hindu country christianity was. Such a minority so there's this little pocket of christians you know in Nepal at least at that point and there's this little little college they were trying to like raise up, you know people for ministry in Nepal and I remember there's these students there and ah, you know like. These guys these girls and they were I recall they were like not sitting together and I remember one of the the girls asked us. Um, you know how? how do we as christians like have a positive self-esteem since we're women and you know Eve was the one that made the sin.

54:55.52
forestandtrees
Um.

54:55.77
Jeremy
I remember like I was confused by the question like what what like I just didn't understand and you know I didn't know if someone was getting lost in translation or whatever and then like literally the people were like yeah she's saying that they basically internalize original sin as women because eve was the one that sinned. And I just said you know that's really interesting I said that's not the way that like christians in America read this story and I said you know I think people don't just blame eve and I said if you read the text Adam's with her while she does this and Adam sins too. All that to say I think it's worth noting. Paul's not talking about eve so he's not retelling the story here. He's he's doing something I would say artistic now I would say the closest I'll agree to original sin is that sin always has effects on others especially when we normalize it. So. Adam and eve sinning which again I don't think Adam and eve are real people so just remind you all that Adam and eve sinning right? Then their kids see that then you know that there is something to that. That's not original sin meaning we inherit your sin by default. But I think if I decide in my life hey I'm gonna normalize some sin. I'm increasing the chances that my kids will do that sin because they're gonna see it. It's gonna be modeled for them right? That is an element of sin by they go to ask here is Paul literally explaining things the way things were or is he using imagery to make a bigger point.

56:31.66
Jeremy
And I would say the big aha that he's using imagery is the fact that eve is never mentioned. He's not retelling the story. He's using imagery to make a bigger point and the bigger point I would suggest is not about Adam. The bigger point is about Jesus. He's just using Adam to try to set up artistically as a storyteller does. Who Jesus is and so you know the point is like verse 18 Christ's 1 act of righteousness brings a right relationship with god and new life for everyone. That's the so what? What Christ did is is the point of Paul's story not what Adam did. Adams just used as a compare and contrast to try to set up. You know who who Jesus is and what Jesus is doing that is the way I interpret what Paul's doing here. He's not retelling actual events now to Greg's question well how do we define perfect like what does that mean. I would say every human is born with free will and the capability to sin like we're made in the image of god but we have free will we have this ability the chances of never choosing. Sin are not high. Yeah, so the odds of someone being born and that person never chooses anything sinful and theological I would say only Jesus ever chose that path like he's the only human that decided I'm going to always you know, always choose others or you know what god is asking but I would say.

57:49.55
forestandtrees
Um.

58:01.36
Jeremy
We are made in god's image and the more we live according to our design the more we will relate to Jesus because that's what we were designed to be like we say a phrase a lot that I think we say it in the opposite way. It should be. We'll say well I'm only human and we usually say that to to defend a shortcoming. Well I'm I'm sorry I did that I'm only human right? and we we say like well what do you expect from me I'm only human should be I'm made in the image of god I'm only human that's why I should be able to move beyond what I'm currently doing and this whole idea of of being image bear of god is is actually very fascinating.

58:24.79
forestandtrees
Um.

58:40.91
Jeremy
And I think when we read the old testament stories a lot of times we don't understand what they meant by it. So for example, when they talk about like so moses comes down the mountain and Aaron's got the golden calf and they're all worshipping the golden calf we read that story today and we're like what idiots they thought this. Golden calf they made was a god like they just made it That's the dumbest thing ever. How do they think that's a god they didn't think the golden calf was a god they thought the golden calf was made in the image of a god that would indwell upon it once it was created so this is how.

59:17.70
forestandtrees
Ah.

59:17.80
Jeremy
Image of god existed in the old testament. Whatever item they made. They didn't think the item itself was god they thought if it was made in that god's image that that god could come down from heaven and dwell inside of it that is the same image that they have these these. You know hebrew writers of what we are. We are literally image bearers that god can come down and dwell inside of us and that's what god wants to do and all we have to do is choose that is say yes to that so that is always the tension god always wants that to be true. So one sin doesn't disqualify me. It just means I'm living contrary to what is inside of me the way is trying to get me to live differently and and so it's almost like I become blurry for a moment because like well that was confusing. You were supposed to look like this but you look like that like that that image got distorted and it's just a chance to go? No I have the spirit of god in me that is. That is my default setting now like the spirit should should be able to to shape me so I don't think perfection and the image of god you know should be tired of like you either have it or you don't no no, we're designed to be image bearers even when we sin we still model for us. And was so shocking about Jesus and we've talked about this on a lot of episodes is that Jesus is willing to assume our sin onto him to stoop down to meet us where we are and that gives us such hope of like oh this is this is the kind of god that we are imaging today. So I don't know if that.

01:00:49.66
Jeremy
Fully answers Greg's question but I think you can make sense of all of it but thinking of us as perfect or not perfect is probably not the easiest way to make sense of it.

01:00:58.94
forestandtrees
Yeah, okay, so that's yeah, so Greg's question as I understood it was was he saying like are you basically like start perfect like a newborn baby would be perfectly righteous like newborn baby is on the same level as baby Jesus but just as soon as that that newborn baby commits their first sin. Then you know then they're a wretched sinner deserving a punishment that that was kind of how I understood Greg's question but

01:01:18.84
Jeremy
Right? But I'm saying go back to what does it mean to be perfect does perfect. Just mean you haven't sin like so it depends on how you're even defining these words I don't think that's a helpful way of understanding what it means to be human. So yeah, a baby I would say technically I don't think has any sin.

01:01:33.14
forestandtrees
Um.

01:01:36.33
Jeremy
Till the baby since so that's the way I would understand it but doesn't mean the baby was perfect to begin with because I think that that's a weird way of understanding it again. There's only right? but I'm saying because there's only been 1 morally perfect human.

01:01:37.96
forestandtrees
Brett right.

01:01:44.12
forestandtrees
Perfect as and as in just morally perfect, not like physically perfect or anything I don't know.

01:01:54.56
Jeremy
I don't think it's necessarily a helpful way of understanding who we are called to be then because then it just feels like oh I I started off great and then I lost it I blew it the other thing kind of reminds me of I remember right? I remember when our we have 5 kids our oldest you know is our first and we're learning everything and.

01:02:03.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, you had 1 job to do.

01:02:13.34
Jeremy
You know when you have 1 kid only you do everything buy the book and it's all the right way and I remember there's like this like I don't know how many months we kept it going but like he had only had like organic good baby food and formula and breast milk and like everything that had ever gone into his body was healthy and good. And like I remember literally the first time we gave him like ah a brownie we were at a we had a party and I was eating a brownie. He's just he's a little baby and he's just eye in me and I'm like I'll give him a little piece of this brownie you know and so I literally break off a little piece and he just pukes it up everywhere.

01:02:50.36
forestandtrees
Um.

01:02:50.52
Jeremy
All over their floor I mean it was like one of those and Michelle looks at me like what did you just do and I'm like I just thought you know but I remember like thinking this thought of like oh your little body was was perfect in the sense of you had never had anything any sugary anything put in and I just.

01:03:07.72
forestandtrees
You You decimated the temple Jeremy you destroyed a beautiful work of art.

01:03:09.90
Jeremy
Broke the seal. You know, right? But again I would say that's not a healthy way of of thinking about how to raise a kid you know what I mean like because then you just like it invites feelings of shame or regret or ah, you were this and now you're not and I would just say i. I don't think that's the goal I think the goal is to say I want to I want to perfectly be an image of the god inside of me and that's ah, that's a goal every day to say how do I as best as I can allow the fruits of the spirit to be evident in my life today right? That's the goal and you know.

01:03:44.00
forestandtrees
Um.

01:03:46.51
Jeremy
Perfection is is an illusion unless you're Jesus and we're not capable of that like we we sin we we make mistakes and every other person shy of Jesus has chosen that and we didn't have to but we do and I think that's you know the world we're created into and yet god and dwells inside of us. Even though we're not perfect and that to me is the more astounding part of that.

01:04:08.97
forestandtrees
Yeah, and then so like Paul's view as I understand it is like because because we're all sinful. We are all deserving a punishment until we're washed in the blood and then the blood makes us perfect again, right? But and then of course like the way I was brought up was it's it. It only works if you accept it. But then you as a universalist would say like all of us are made perfect by the blood like whether we accept it in this life or not is that right? Yeah yeah.

01:04:34.44
Jeremy
Well, we're getting little into atonement theory and you know your view of of eternity as well. So I would say from an to atonement theory point of view. The fact that we've all sinned puts all of us into a ah predicament with with Satan because now he's got a claim to all of us because like oh you guys. You guys broke you broke the agreement you you know you had this perfect god and you guys disobeyed that god and did your own thing and now I have claim to you know you and within this creation and so god on behalf of all of us is like all right. All of you have this predicament not because original sin because you all have chosen the same thing. And so I'm going to solve this problem but then yeah, whether or not you choose it now I think you know all of us are on a trajectory to to understanding that and embracing that and at some point whether it's in this life or after this life I believe Jesus will will help us each see it. More clearly.

01:05:30.88
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, sorry and just 1 more just kind of random note when you were talking about. Why does Paul mentioned Adam not eve so it made me think what's that part? What's the ah bible verse where god words where Paul talks about um the woman was deceived first and it's all her fault. So first timothy. 2 and that's kind of the infamous I do not permit a woman to to speak in church. She should be quiet and stuff because because it's all her fault and she can only be saved through child bear you know one one of the most one of the most garbage things Paula said in my opinion but you know we can talk about that at a different season.

01:05:56.49
Jeremy
We should just.

01:06:02.76
Jeremy
We should just quote romans five back to Paul in Timothy right? because like no Paul she didn't even show up and you're retelling of this story in romans five how is all of a sudden. She's the focus now.

01:06:10.57
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, Paul Paul pause a little bit of a postmodern. Um, you know, non literal bible believer in this way right is like he can just make the old testament.

01:06:22.72
Jeremy
But I think but in all serious I think that's a really good point you have Paul in 2 different retellings of this story singling out 2 different people you know and for sympathy it's eve and romans five. It's Adam go all which is it.

01:06:24.88
forestandtrees
Mean whatever he wants to to find the way he retells the story.

01:06:37.53
forestandtrees
Um.

01:06:42.29
Jeremy
Like how you know this is Paul trying to make other points right? Not a literal retelling and so you take all these kind of passages and you have to make a theological answer for all these that makes sense and ultimately you do that through Jesus through going. Okay Jesus how do we make sense of all these things that Paul saying because you know Romans 5 he's all mad at Adam and. Tim of these all mad at eve like what's going on here.

01:07:05.28
forestandtrees
Yeah, who's who's really at fault here. but but okay, okay so ah, just last thing about it. It's so if you don't want to call it original sin it. It seems like clear that Paul is saying like because of Adam sin.

01:07:08.70
Jeremy
Who's really to blame.

01:07:22.14
forestandtrees
We're we're under the curse right? like we would have we would have had perfect immortal bodies with without the sin is that do you agree with Paul in that kind of understanding of the curse the fall of man that kind of thing.

01:07:35.47
Jeremy
Yeah, but I also think it's it's kind of like a weird hypothetical like I don't think Adam's a real person. Okay so I don't think it's well that's what I'm saying. There's got to be something else here like it's not. It's we want to make it really clean cut of like Adam.

01:07:43.95
forestandtrees
Um, so what do you write? So what does that mean then.

01:07:53.33
Jeremy
Adam did this like well I don't think there was an Adam and you know Adam was the hebrew word for dirt which is how god made people I mean it's like all of this is storytelling like people get so caught up on this stuff and they miss the bigger point of this which is Paul trying to describe Jesus? That's the bigger point of this and so I would say yeah. You know in theory humanity is made in this image of god we were made to literally be the the little temples of god on this earth. So yeah, that was the design to to be perfect, but because we decided we know best we'll do our own thing we'll we'll go our own way.

01:08:24.84
forestandtrees
Um.

01:08:32.19
Jeremy
Yeah, now there's this sin problem and call it a curse call. Whatever you want to call it like yeah we we we chose Sin and now we have a debt to pay with with the forces of evil that now are making claim on us and God's like all right now I gotta do something about this because we've we've got a cosmic problem here and so God's like I'll rectify this. I will I will die on behalf of my image bearers and that was how will I'll redeem the back.

01:08:56.76
forestandtrees
Yeah I do like that worldview better in the sense of it. It takes on more personal responsibility right? It's not you can't just blame our ancestors for all the world's problems because that that's if you are kind of a literal six day creationist who believes in the. Literal garden of eden forbidden fruit story it it it does seem like always it always felt like a little bit illogical to me of like why you know why are we all suffering the consequences of someone else's sin like that doesn't really seem fair. So yeah.

01:09:27.78
Jeremy
Sure and again I so I can say I can say no I don't think original Sin is thing I Also think there is something Sin has effect on other people and I even think there are you know there's generational sin which is you know if if you have a sin that gets passed down.

01:09:42.54
forestandtrees
Um.

01:09:44.67
Jeremy
It gets passed down not in this and not in the way we think of original Sin being passed down. It gets passed down. We see something and it becomes normalized and we're more likely to choose it and then we do choose you know and a lot families have generational sin where you know one generation just literally teaches the next generation to sin the same way they did.

01:09:46.92
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:10:02.90
forestandtrees
Right.

01:10:03.67
Jeremy
And it takes someone being willing to say yeah I know this is how my parents are but I don't want to be that and I don't want to keep doing that and some you know sometimes you got to be that person that says I'm not going to keep this generational sin going anymore. It ends with me and. You know, making those kind of decisions and so I do think there are generational sins that you see this and all of that plays into it but it is not this magical. There was this guy named Adam and he made a one bad choice and now you are born into you know, shame and filth. It's like no, you're born being the image of god and yet.

01:10:34.25
forestandtrees
Um.

01:10:38.75
Jeremy
Every human on Earth Minus one has chosen to make bad choices.

01:10:41.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I do see how it was a useful metaphor that was the I was thinking about too of like what it you know? How do we use? Original sin kind of as as a metaphorical concept like when we talk about historically slavery is America's original sin you know and they don't. Don't mean it's like this magical curse like in the bible but they mean like we're still even though we don't own slaves Today. We're still feeling the sociopolitical ramifications of what our country was founded on. So yeah, right.

01:11:07.75
Jeremy
Totally and that's a very generational sin right? that was passed on and normalized and argued for and we're still trying to Unravel that one.

01:11:19.57
forestandtrees
Right? right? Exactly all right? great. Do do you feel you feel like you answer Greg's questions I know? Yeah yeah, we appreciate you you writing in Greg and yeah, we'd love to hear from more people as well. Ah.

01:11:24.41
Jeremy
I don't know Greg will have to zealous.

01:11:37.52
forestandtrees
Cool I think we got through it. Do you feel you feel good jeremy do you remember your homework. Yeah, you can either. You can either watch Pig or you can listen to you Bob Dylan

01:11:41.32
Jeremy
Us us that was a doozy ah pig I got watch I got to go watch pig I'm gonna so I got to choose Nicholas Cage or Bob Dylan those are my options.

01:11:57.60
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, you either way, you're getting the voice of a generation. So it's a win-win all right on on that note, that's let's let's ah use our way off the stage. Thanks for listening everybody. Ah yeah.

01:11:58.97
Jeremy
Oh log? Yeah oh gosh on that note lay The music let's get out of here. Oh sorry guys.

01:12:15.43
forestandtrees
Please do write us, please do write us and give us your movie and a music recommendations and let us know what you think about the show. Maybe even give us a writing you know those are nice all right and we will be in chapter six next week