Romans 4 - God Said to Abraham

It’s the Abraham chapter! We Discuss faith, works, God’s command to sacrifice Isaac, hope, and relations between Islam and Christianity.

Topics
Should Faith be effortless?
Faith v Works
What’s the deal with God telling Abraham to kill Isaac?
Is Hope Naive?
Is it problematic for Christians to view Islam as a distortion of the true faith?

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Transcript

00:00.00
Jeremy
Well it is time for romans chapter four I'm Jeremy and I'm joined by my friend. Jeff.

00:08.74
forestandtrees
Well god said to Abraham kill me a son abe said man, you must be putting me on god said what apes said what god said oh gosh wait I got oh my gosh I've been practicing this so much.

00:25.59
Jeremy
Ah, you had your chance and you just you just totally botched it.

00:26.36
forestandtrees
All right? Abe said no god said what god said you can do what you want a but the next time you see me come and you'd better run abe said where you want all this killing done out on highway 61

00:41.84
Jeremy
Nice Does you feel better now.

00:44.77
forestandtrees
Yeah I feel I feel awful I had 1 1 job to do and I blew it I threw away my shot.

00:52.10
Jeremy
You know it's a little reminiscent of our last episode of hebrews where you busted out the pink Ukulele and your custom song but that performance was flawless You you had you had prepared for that. So you're slipping a little bit.

01:05.36
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, I'm so I'm slipping in my old age you know, just.

01:11.54
Jeremy
But know it.

01:15.84
forestandtrees
Just like Dylan himself. You know I I don't have the magic of the youth anymore on my side. Oh yeah, of course are are you yeah it. It reminds me of um.

01:18.54
Jeremy
Are you a dylan fan I would not put myself in that category. No.

01:30.40
forestandtrees
Many many episodes ago I was going to ask you when I did ask you? The question is the bible really that deep and I was thinking of like what could I compare to like what's another thing I could say is pretty deep so I was going to say like I mean couldn't you say like Bob Dylan lyrics or as deep or deeper than the bible. Um, but then I thought actually like a lot of Bob Dylan's lyrics like. Draw from the bible and he uses the bible as is kind of a starting off point for a lot of his ideas and themes. So I guess you had to give give it to the bible there for it's where where would Bob don't be without the bible. You know? Yeah yeah.

01:59.66
Jeremy
It's almost circular logic. He's using the bible right? right? Where would any of us be without the bible Jeff we would not. We would not be doing what we're doing now getting to entertain our listeners with.

02:06.89
forestandtrees
We wouldn't have a podcast that's for sure.

02:16.30
Jeremy
Our rants and raves and perspectives and and all of that So we're we're grateful for the bible and all of its weirdness and messiness and and Beauty dare I say.

02:26.39
forestandtrees
Yeah, totally.

02:29.78
Jeremy
Well, we're in to that beautiful bible chapter 4 of the book of romans and today we are looking at whether faith in god is supposed to be easy if you can be a good person without faith. We are wrestling with the merits of. Abraham being willing to kill his son and how christians should view islam just ah, just a ah few little indicators of where we're where we're going here but before we get there I'd like to.

02:57.27
forestandtrees
Big topic.

03:07.99
Jeremy
Cast some vision set the stage if you will with a particularly particularly great verse in chapter 4 verse 15 Paul says for the law always brings punishment on those who try. To obey it which is why we don't try to follow the law today. We follow Jesus and that my friends is good. News.

03:37.47
forestandtrees
Yeah, that the second part is good now is yeah, the first part seems seems kind of cruel and manipulative to be if god gives us the law makes us follow the law and then punishes us for not being able to follow the law like he kind of set us up for failure there right.

03:52.14
Jeremy
I see I see where you're going with that. But if Jesus fulfills the law and then Jesus invites us to follow him now. We've got good news.

03:58.59
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

04:06.26
forestandtrees
You Yeah I can see how that part is good news So I'll give you that. Ah.

04:09.00
Jeremy
Okay, all well we'll agree on that part all right? Jeff what questions you got romans chapter 4

04:18.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, so this whole chapter is talking about Abraham the faith of Abraham ah, very very important old testament figure featured prominently and in a Bob Dylan song and yeah, yeah, absolutely he's he's a big deal.

04:26.70
Jeremy
He shows each shows up in a few verses. Yeah.

04:34.15
forestandtrees
Anyway, and he had many sons and and I'm one of them. So are you he.

04:36.70
Jeremy
Wow, that's Sunday school is coming back to me now did you did you know the motions for that song. Oh yeah, the the marching and all the hall thing.

04:45.71
forestandtrees
Yeah, right arm left arm. yeah yeah I was I was considering using that song instead. There's you know, 2 2 really famous songs that are all about Abraham. Um.

04:54.87
Jeremy
Um, we should have included a Sunday school trigger warning on this episode of like if you have painful repressed sunday school memories. We're bringing them all back up.

05:08.93
forestandtrees
Or or big church trigger warning later we're going to talk about ah a story that I hear talked about a lot in in big kid church. So.

05:17.20
Jeremy
Um, is there an accompanying song with it for for the big kids. Yes.

05:23.38
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, this ah the highway sixty one revisited I I brought it up at the beginning of the episode. Yeah yeah, well he did he did for a while in the 70 s but all right? So ah Romans four I want to start in.

05:26.68
Jeremy
And I don't I'm never sung that in church come on Dylan Dylan doesn't go to church now.

05:40.99
forestandtrees
Verse 5 says when people work their wages are not a gift but something they have earned that people are countered as righteous, not because of their work but because of their faith in god who forgives sinners so just kind of a a side note here to say that this. Verse also makes me think of the question we talked about before of like can you even choose whether you believe or not can you choose whether to have faith or not um, just want to put that out there but kind of put it the side because I want to talk about this new testament concept of faith is more important than works. It's a huge theme and in romans and throughout. The the new testament I would say yeah this was kind of a new thought that occurred to me as I was processing romans four that I think I hadn't thought of much before but as I think about it now I feel like in some ways having faith is a lot of work when I think about like what would it take for me to be a Christian again. Feel like I would either need to you know, hypothetically like form a podcast and get all my questions answered or yeah or do the hard work of kind of just suppressing all of my questions and putting them aside and just not worrying about them anymore that that sounds.

06:45.34
Jeremy
Hypothetically of course.

06:56.69
forestandtrees
Easier said than done to me anyway and of course there's you know the whole field of apologetics and it makes me think of books like how to stay Christian in college or ministries like answers in genesis where they do the hard work of taking all of the claims in the book of genesis and making it make sense from a scientific perspective. But this whole idea of salvation is supposed to be a free gift as Paul calls it. Jesus says my burden is light in Matthew eleven so it makes me ask the question Jeremy is faith supposed to be easy and effortless or is it supposed to be a lot of work.

07:32.66
Jeremy
Well, let's think about just normal relationships Human relationships. You know if you will to to try to break this down to a more manageable bite size chunk I don't know of any healthy relationships that are effortless. So if I think about like a healthy friendship certainly marriage even parenting kids I don't know any of those relationships that you would look at and go Wow that one look look at that marriage or look at that friendship or look at that father son mother daughter you know, whatever and. And go Wow that is a really good healthy relationship. Um I don't know any of those that you could unpack and then say they just arrived there. You know that just at just how it says how that is now I think there are some that are easier than others for sure. But I think at a minimum. Healthy relationships take work and ironically I think the closer you are in a relationship in any one of those contexts when you do have a fight when you do have a disagreement they feel bigger the closer. The the relationship is so like I can have a fight with my wife.

08:45.28
forestandtrees
Um.

08:47.52
Jeremy
And it will be a very big deal to me whereas I might have you know a fight with a coworker or something and I'm like you know big deal like we we don't that I but the more that relationship matters to me the more invested I am in it The closer we are the bigger that is and you might think well it should be other way around and yet.

08:54.65
forestandtrees
Right.

09:07.30
Jeremy
You know anyone anyone who thinks about any relationship they have would we go? Yeah, that is the way it Works. You know the the ones that mean the most to you are often the hardest so I don't think faith by itself is supposed to be effortless and I don't I don't think that it's even supported in the text. Holistically across the board I think where we get confused is that we tend to equate faith with salvation and so we think all right Salvation is either easy or hard and then we apply the same type of thing to whether or not I'm saved. So if I do all these things.

09:28.13
forestandtrees
Um.

09:44.60
Jeremy
Right? then god will save me so I've done the right part I've done the work. But I think that's where we get it messed up from a salvation point of view I would say start with the conclusion that you are saved and you are loved and you are made in the image of god and then act accordingly. Right? So start with that in mind then try to have a faith that lives up to that that that responds according to that. But I think faith does is definitely something that takes work and there's so many examples and I actually love these i've. For years wanted to like write a book on just this topic of how many times Jesus points out someone's faith. Um like he's about to do something but he'll say wow you know I have not seen such faith in all of Israel or your faith has saved you or your faith has made you well right.

10:35.93
forestandtrees
Ah.

10:39.74
Jeremy
Well, if if there's nothing to that if that's just you know some people would say well faith is just a gift of god you can't well then what is Jesus saying in all these examples he's he's complimenting this person going you have chosen something right? So I think faith absolutely requires something of you. Where we get confused on that is if we equate well, that's what I have to do then to be saved does that make sense.

11:04.47
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Um, what's so way when you brought up Jesus and made me think of you. So Jesus says um, all you use faith the size of a mustard seed to move mountains and so I feel like that's supposed to be an encouragement right? Because. Saying a mustard seat is so small you'll need a little bit of faith but I feel like oftentimes or more recently I've thought of that more as a discouraging thing of like wow my faith must be even smaller than a mustard seat I must have like half a mustard seed worth of faith or or less because you know I am moving no mountains.

11:36.20
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting even that passage you know like who of us have moved any mountain with our faith right? So literally you know he's using Hyperbolic language on both ends something massive something very small. You know, Um, which yeah I've never moved a mountain with my faith either. So.

11:45.47
forestandtrees
Um.

11:51.53
forestandtrees
Um.

11:55.43
Jeremy
Evidently I'm with you on whatever tinier seed a faith we have than than a mustard seed I do think the point of that was to be to be encouraging whether whether it serves that purpose for you right? is is a different thing but um.

11:59.66
forestandtrees
Yeah.

12:06.50
forestandtrees
Whether it's effective or not yeah.

12:13.51
Jeremy
I think people get you know if you think you have to have a certain type of faith in order to be saved then yeah, that is a daunting you know I don't I don't have enough faith but I would say more than that you know because again we've talked about this elsewhere I think I think god is good enough that Jesus is gonna save everybody. It's my personal ache plenty of christians would disagree with that. But that's that's my personal date. So then I almost rule out that whole part of it. So then faith is not that because we're all gonna experience that at some point then faith is how much do I experience god right now in my life.

12:32.86
forestandtrees
Sure.

12:51.39
Jeremy
Because I'm looking for it I'm open to it I'm inviting it that to me is more of you know what am I going to experience in the day-to-day. That's where faith comes in and I do think that takes work and ah we're going to get into it a little bit more with another verse in this chapter. But I think that's something that Paul is getting at too and developing a theme of. Hey you're gonna have to choose this and there may be times when you you think I shouldn't choose this so I should choose anything else other than this and yet you make the choice that this is what I'm gonna land on.

13:22.43
forestandtrees
Yeah, so right and I see how you like because he's trying to say that it's good news in the sense of you don't need to follow the law anymore right? So it's like what like I don't know would you say like faith is less work than the or the physical work of.

13:33.52
Jeremy
Um, yeah.

13:39.80
Jeremy
Oh hundred percent well I think it's mental but it's also you know we we talked about this I think it was last week the idea that ideas have consequences right? So if I put my faith in Jesus that'll shape decisions that I make in my life.

13:42.42
forestandtrees
Fulfilling the law because it's just a ah mental exercise. But yeah.

13:52.15
forestandtrees
Oh.

13:59.30
Jeremy
So I'm gonna choose this over that why because I'm putting faith in you know Jesus? So it's not just a a mental exercise of I'm able to wrap my head around. You know that? no one else can it's like no that that might be an element or component of it. But faith is what ultimately leads to. Actions that you make and I would say absolutely Paul is contrasting that with living under the law and saying this was really really hard and then the point we just you know I started the podcast off with of yeah and you're doomed to failure if you try that you know and so here's something you're not going to fail at you can actually. Have faith and you know going back to the mustard seed. Even if you can get a little bit Jesus seems to think hey that's gonna that's gonna provide something for you in your life. So you know there can be people with massive amounts of faith or a little bit of faith and all of it is an invitation for god. You know to be engaged in your life.

14:55.78
forestandtrees
Yeah I don't know I'm I'm kind of going back and forth and at my mind just even as we speak of like is it harder to just like follow instructions like I get the old testament laws.. There's There's a lot of laws and it's it's impossible to follow it perfectly but again like with the choosing thing at least you can just will yourself. You can just like make yourself not lie, not steal not murder not covet Blah Blah blah but you can't necessarily make make yourself believe something you don't believe I don't know does that make sense. Yeah.

15:23.84
Jeremy
Sure Absolutely and I don't think that's what faith is I don't think faith is you know, suppressing your natural doubts and overcoming your logic and reason and sadly a lot of Christians do kind of present faith like that sometimes where you know you just need to believe.

15:33.96
forestandtrees
But not.

15:41.97
Jeremy
And you know it's funny to me I get this a lot on my social. We talk about you know, social media pushback I get every week I you know I post clips of of what we talk about and then I I I get the on Fla Theobros and theosissis the the ladies are there as well. Um.

15:52.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, Theo Bros enter the chat. Um.

16:01.10
Jeremy
You know, don't like my take on this or that and it's amazing to me, especially this last week I don't know what it was about this last week's episode chapter 3 really riled him up but how many times people quoted to me. Basically this idea of god's ways are better than my ways we just won't understand. And so almost like I was getting faulted for trying to use too much logic to explain some of these things where I should have just said well god's mysterious and we can't understand this and to me that's that's just not faith like faith isn't because we're talking about this faith isn't the ability to believe something that's not believable.

16:20.70
forestandtrees
Um.

16:38.75
Jeremy
That just is a sign of a low intellect faith is saying hey I can't prove this but I have enough to go on of why I believe this and so where there's a gap of what I can prove I'm going to trust God with that gap right.

16:42.15
forestandtrees
Ah.

16:56.86
Jeremy
So it's not saying you know if I had no evidence of god I would not put my faith in Jesus like if there was nothing that logically lined up for me I promise you we would flip. We make flip roles on this podcast right? I'd be the one going this is this is a bunch of BS you know, but the reason I have faith.

17:06.95
forestandtrees
Um.

17:11.16
forestandtrees
Sure.

17:15.21
Jeremy
Where there's gaps is because everything that I can logically wrap my mind around makes sense to me and points me to Jesus and that to me is the essence where I think we we get that confused a lot. So yeah, if if faith was the ability to convince yourself. Something is true that you don't believe is true. That would be harder than the old testament commands. But I don't think that's what faith is at all. Thankfully.

17:37.37
forestandtrees
Um.

17:39.38
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I suppose yeah in terms of salvation out. Well we'll have to talk about this later down the road when we get to the the sinner's prayer verse but I I was just trying to think of like how did I see faith and salvation and everything when it was first introduced to me as a kid which was basically just.

17:58.18
Jeremy
Yeah.

17:58.64
forestandtrees
Just pray this prayer and you're all good and it's like you know, basically the equivalent of when you're a college freshman and someone is just just sign here like don't even read it just you know sign up, it's it's gonna be fine.

18:06.80
Jeremy
Or like the the terms and agreements that you get now and you're like this is 40 pages I'm not reading all this like yes I accept.

18:12.69
forestandtrees
Yeah, because then yeah in that sense. It's like if all you have to do is pray a prayer no questions asked then then yeah salvation is is incredibly easy but also also incredibly high stakes because that means anyone who hasn't been exposed to the the gospel in in Sunday school is.

18:22.80
Jeremy
By the.

18:31.74
Jeremy
But maybe another way of looking at it is when when you can when you get to the end of your logic and again I think some people get to the end of their logic faster than others when you get to the end where you go all right? at this point.

18:31.89
forestandtrees
And danger of Hellfire right.

18:46.83
Jeremy
I'm gonna have to put faith in something because I can't prove it beyond this point. What do you put? What do you put your faith in at that. That's really what I think we're talking about. It's not hey I'm dismissing everything else before that it's like no when I get to that point and regards of what you believe and we've talked about this even in you sharing some of your views on.

18:51.80
forestandtrees
Um.

19:06.11
Jeremy
How do we get here right? there in all of this there. There's an acknowledgement at some point all right. This is as far as I can logically get to and then I don't know and you know and it's like at that point you're putting faith into something when you go I cannot explain beyond this point and and so to me. Christian faith is saying when I get to that point with with Jesus I then give you know god the benefit of the doubt and go all right I choose from everything else I've seen I choose to put the rest of the faith in you.

19:38.76
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, okay I could see that.

19:42.97
Jeremy
All right good cause I got a question for you now? Ah so this first that you brought up I actually was thinking about this verse for you and so I want to ask verse 5 reread it and then ask you it says people are counted as righteous not because of their work. Okay. Which is the law but because of their faith. So Paul says you can't be righteous anymore because of what you do, but only by faith so I'm curious. How does this strike you as someone who no longer puts their faith in god. But from everything I know of you, you still want to be a good person. Can you can you do this with Paul's argument here or how do you react to? what Paul's saying that you you can only you know, be righteous by faith.

20:29.95
forestandtrees
Yeah I get I guess I would say this is a place where I definitely disagree with Paul because I'm just thinking about like who would you have more respect for a christian who does terrible things or an atheist who does good things you know like it's it seemed pretty clear to me from. You know from a secular point of view in this life. Um, faith is not the most important thing like what you do is more important than what you believe and like in some ways it could like what you believe can be worse because if you say you believe something and then you do the opposite then you're a hypocrite right um. And of course like it made me think of the the kind of the tension between faith and works that I talked about a little bit in the first. Um, first question here. It made me think of the the passage in James where it's said faith without good works is dead and it's it's interesting to think to.

21:27.30
forestandtrees
Realize when I was reading James to the full chapter in context, it's talking about the story of of Abraham saizing isaac and James seems to be kind of in disagreement with Paul there because James is saying like it was not because of Abraham's faith it was because of his his work his willingness to go through with the sacrifice that that's why. He was savor that like his works confirmed his faith basically and and then Jesus also oftentimes talks about like works what you do being more important than what you believe he ends the sermon on them out by saying anyone who hears my teachings.

21:48.61
Jeremy
Oh.

22:02.50
forestandtrees
And doesn't obey it is foolish like a person who builds a house on Sand and just one more quote from Batman who says it's not who I am underneath but what I do that defines me. So yeah I guess I'm going to say that that's a reason to not be a Christian is I think that. Yeah, works are more important than faith in that sense? Yeah, yeah, the the trinity. Um.

22:23.96
Jeremy
So 2 bible verses in Batman is where we had. You know what's interesting as I'm listening to that answer you know what? you just did is you you put Paul under Jesus and you interpreted Paul through Jesus said actually Jesus said it is important I just.

22:40.57
forestandtrees
Yeah.

22:43.17
Jeremy
Ah, just want to point that out that was that was a beautiful moment for me right? there listening we do that.

22:48.76
forestandtrees
Yeah, the ah the teacher has become the master or the student rather.

22:54.43
Jeremy
Ah, oh that's great. Ah I Really like what you just said and I would agree that I would rather have an atheist who does good things than a Christian who's a total douchebag. Ah.

23:07.76
forestandtrees
M.

23:12.60
Jeremy
So yeah I mean I think you know and James obviously speaks to that like you said, but the sermon on the mount is beautiful. You know that's that's obviously the the pinnacle for a christian of like this is what it actually looks like I even think you know talking about a lot like glaciians 5 You know the fruit of the spirit. Those aren't.

23:27.80
forestandtrees
M.

23:30.71
Jeremy
Those aren't abstract Concepts those are very tangible practical things that you can either see or not see you know in someone's life and so I think even to make the argument I As a Christian have a lot of faith but it doesn't produce. Love Joy Peace patience kind of you know I mean like if none of those things are evident in my life.

23:46.20
forestandtrees
Yeah.

23:50.52
Jeremy
But my faith is incredible. It's like well what the heck is your faith in because if if it's in God and the holy spirit is in dwelling inside of you. These are the things that we've been told to look for like these are the things that it will produce and if it's not something's off so actually man kudos to you I like that answer.

24:08.12
forestandtrees
Oh thanks, Yeah, well, it's it's interesting because I feel like it's like the hold faith versus works question is something that like at least within a lot of the Christian circles I was in it was like yeah you're not, You're not allowed to acknowledge the nuance a little bit or maybe you can acknowledge the nuance but you always have to land on a certain side and say like.

24:09.30
Jeremy
Good. Okay.

24:27.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's about faith over works like if anytime like a pastor leans too hard into talking about your good Works. We'll save you people always call them out on it and say like no, you're teaching a works based salvation and like yeah I I just I would argue that the new testament you know like a lot of things in the bible like the bible. Are used for both sides and is kind of in disagreement with itself. There. Okay yeah.

24:49.10
Jeremy
Well, but to reiterate my earlier point I would remove the whole salvation element from it completely because I do I think god's gonna save everybody so remove that from the conversation then say what is real faith look like like it should produce action. It should produce something in your life. Not because that's what's gonna save you. You're already saved like I think Jesus is gonna save everybody but because god wants us to be more like god that's what we are created to be image bearers and god looks like Jesus looks like the fruit of the spirit like these are things so any real healthy faith should ultimately produce some journey toward that.

25:09.10
forestandtrees
M.

25:27.58
Jeremy
Direction and it is sad. It's a sad Irony if an atheist is modeling that better than someone who claims to have faith in the God who embodies those things.

25:29.51
forestandtrees
Um.

25:39.24
forestandtrees
Yeah, totally ah Christians without without producing good fruit you you called out consider yourselves warned. Okay, well. Ah so let's let's move on to a story of of definitely faith.

25:46.18
Jeremy
There we go.

25:55.85
forestandtrees
Definitely faith, but with questionable fruit at least I would say ah on a lighter note. Yeah, let's let's go back to Sunday school so verse 13 clearly god's promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to god's law.

25:57.32
Jeremy
On a lighter note.

26:12.82
forestandtrees
But on a right relationship with god that comes by faith. So okay, the story of Abraham sacrificing isaac is what I want to bring up here. It's not explicitly brought up in ah romans chapter four here. But it's I'd say it's kind of like the ultimate story of Abraham like his faith being tested. Proving his faith and it also has a lot to do with his descendants so I wanted to to bring that up because it's you know it's a very commonly cited story. It's an example of faith and I feel like it's I don't know it's another one of those stories that I feel like christians. Love and embrace this story because it does have a happy ending. You know at the end of the story. He doesn't have to sacrifice Isaac god swoops in and stops him at the last minute but I still feel like it's another one of the stories from the old testament where god is not really the good guy here and the only way you can see him. The good guy is if you go in with the preconceived notion that god has to be good I'd say if you read this story straight. It's like yeah, it's it's good that he doesn't have to go through with it in the end but it's still not great in my from my perception that god wants Abraham to. Prove himself prove his loyalty It seems a little bit cruel and manipulative to me and also it sets sets a bad precedent because there have been other stories of people who feel like they've heard from god and feel like god is testing their faith and they actually literally have gone through with it and sacrificed their own children to prove their faith in god so I just just want to.

27:47.74
forestandtrees
Poke some holes in this story that um, a lot of I've heard a lot of people praise Abraham for his faith in this story and talk about how you know god is always good. No matter what this the bible says about him so my question for you Jeremy how do you view this story as a father.

28:03.70
Jeremy
Well I grew up reading this story I grew up in Sunday school and so as long as I can remember this was told to me as as a beautiful story. You know everything you just kind of mocked was my childhood. So I remember the flannel graphs I remember all the cartoon abrahams I remember all the you know.

28:11.68
forestandtrees
Um.

28:15.68
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

28:22.49
Jeremy
Cartoon isaacs and the lamb and all this and you know that was that was certainly the way it was presented to me for years and years and years and years and then I vividly remember having a moment reading this as a dad. So once I had had kids of my own and rereading this just. Kind of reread and story one day and I had this moment where I realized if I was Abraham I wouldn't do it and I remember reading it and just having this honest reaction of this is horrific like this is horrific of what god is asking and to be honest with you I had ah had a moment of like a little bit of faith crisis because you know I'm like well who am I right to say no to god if god were to ask me to do that who who am I to say no and. Clearly then I don't have the kind of faith that Abraham had and and so I I mean I just like this is a vivid personal memory because I remember it messed me up a bit when as a dad I came back to this story and just realized I wouldn't like. if if I had you know some audible voice from god of like go and kill your son no like I'm I'm not I'm not going to do that you know and um, you know Dr this last week of like I'd rather I would rather get the wrath of that kind of a god than.

29:37.79
forestandtrees
Oh.

29:52.97
Jeremy
Do what that kind of god is asking me to do you know I mean like smite me if you're gonna smite me or do whatever you to do to me but like I'm not going to go and kill 1 of my children for you and you know, really feeling a conundrum over that of like whole on what basis then do. Do I stand up to a god you know? or or you know and I so that like many other crises of faith in my life. You know, caused me to go do a deep dive like okay I got I gotta wrestle through this I gotta explore more of this and. Basically I have reconciled that where now I don't feel bad anymore that I wouldn't do this and I don't feel bad because I know what god is like and I know that this is not the heart of god and god would not desire is totally incongruous for god to ask me to sacrifice 1 of my children. Because I know that god looks like Jesus and this is you know, antithetical to that we go. Well, how do you explain the story. Well, that's where I think a little bit of bible study does wonders on on some of these things and you know, ah this is where I've appreciated. You know, getting to. Go to seminary getting to dive deep into these reading books that are often very tedious but you get to see perspectives that you you know may not get otherwise and what you realize if you study this story from an ancient near east point of view which is this is the culture. You know that we find in the old testament.

31:24.70
Jeremy
There were other ancient near East Cultures around them. They you know they mix and match some things of the nations around them. They rejected some they incorporated others. You know what you find is that this idea of child sacrifice was a common ancient near east worship practice. Like you can find this all over the place in other religions and so what I would say now understanding this having read other cultures having read other religions of that time that I think I think god was doing this so and again this goes back to progressive revelation that I talk about over and over and over again. But god met them where they are which is hey I want to I want to have you sacrifice your son here's my take I think Abraham would have been like yeah of course you do like obviously you do because like this is what we all do in this culture so we read that today. We're like I don't know if I could do it I don't think Abraham had that.

32:02.90
forestandtrees
Ah.

32:12.30
forestandtrees
Um.

32:21.53
Jeremy
That reaction and now you might go well any doubt have that reaction I would just push on that and say I don't think we realize how cultural some of this stuff is in that culture I think this would have been an expectation that you know Abraham probably knew people who had sacrificed their children to their gods. Like like so imagine this is something you've seen you you grew up you know and so I think everyone's like oh okay, yeah, of course I'll do that and then what this is is a plot twist god's going hey I'm I'm making you think I'm like every other god but then I'm going to flip the script on you and show you. I'm actually not at all like those other gods. So the fact that god provided the sacrifice rather than Abraham sacrificing his child is the plot twist now even with that there is some argument and I think there's merit to this that. Abraham was more concerned about the logistics of this right? like okay god you've made this promise to me if I do what you're saying I'm not gonna be the father of all these nations like logistically this won't this won't work right? So not as much of like an emotional. This is my son? No, he's going if I do this god it will. You know, nullify this promise you've made to me you know, but there's a lot of scholars that that think that Abraham did it with the belief that god would raise isaac back to life so it was almost this like Abraham thought yeah I'm gonna have to kill him but believed.

33:47.16
forestandtrees
Huh.

33:52.13
Jeremy
God was going to raise him back to life and I would even put Paul in this camp that I think Paul had this interpretation of the story because in chapter 4 verse seventeen. So as he's telling the story of Abraham notice. What Paul says in verse 17 Abraham believed in the god. Who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing so as he's talking about it this he's like this is the kind of god Abraham believed it the god that brings the dead back to life. Well, why would why would Paul say that what is he talking about right.

34:17.82
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

34:28.39
Jeremy
He's talking about I think what Abraham anticipated god doing with isaac and so again I think he's going. Yeah I had to sacrifice my son totally get it That's what we do in in this day and age. But he's thinking I bet you god's going to bring isaac back to life because he made me this promise. And so he has a hope and and that's where the faith was now again we can look at all this today and go that is monstrous that is absurd and I just think it's easy when you live in a totally different culture to look back on. You know, ancient cultures ago. What? what on earth were they thinking? well. Look throughout history child sacrifice has been a thing throughout history and all sorts of religions so we can fault them for this. You know, obviously it's horrific, but this was normal to them. This was something that they did and so I think Abraham is operating within that framework but expecting something to come of it. Now today here's the difference today. It would be utterly illogical now that we have seen god to be revealed in Jesus for god to ask someone in today's culture to do the same thing as Abraham which is where I think some christians who make the same argument like yeah if god said that to you today I hope you'd be willing to do it. I mean Bs no like horrible interpretation of this god would not ask you today because number one you don't live in that culture and number 2 we have seen god to be revealed and to be the opposite of this Abraham had not seen that yet. This was part of god revealing hey you may think I'm like all these other gods.

36:03.56
Jeremy
But I'm actually not like these other gods and here's a twist on that I'm gonna I'm gonna make that point.

36:08.88
forestandtrees
Yeah that's great I mean thank you for saying that I don't know if I've heard another pastor say you know basically say like it's okay to say I wouldn't do it. You know I feel like normally when this passage is preached they say like that's that's a test I don't know if I could do it that'd be tough, but. You know god is more important than family I guess I would I would push back a little bit though I'm like this this does seem consistent with both Jesus and Paul's message of saying like though the ministry is more important than family like leave your family. Forget your family and follow me is basically what what Jesus says over and over again to people. And and then Paul saying like it's better. Not to be married so that you can I wish everyone was like me and be single so you could just focus on the ministry. So yeah I don't it all reminds me of your your blog post. You just did where you talked about um toser right? Well how like tos are toster's wife said she had some quote about how. He loved Jesus more than he loved his wife and you were calling him out on on that kind of behavior as well. So that's that's fascinating.

37:10.61
Jeremy
Well yeah, and I would just say there's a difference between you know, loving your family less than you love God and being willing to kill your child So I would I would just caution us a little bit putting that well see Jesus said the same thing I would say no, it's not the same thing I understand right? I understand the point you're making but I would just say that's not.

37:20.85
forestandtrees
Ah.

37:23.91
forestandtrees
Yeah, you just didn't didn't say to kill anyone which is good.

37:29.90
Jeremy
I don't think Jesus makes this argument and I don't think Paul makes this argument either and not wanting to be married um and you know the the point I was making in the blog posts about toser was you know if you read Matthew 25 Jesus puts himself relationally into any situation in which. The the least of these the most marginal vulnerable person we would interact with Jesus says, whatever you do to that person. You did to me which then I would say this would obviously include your children your spouse right? All the Jesus saying and I am that person and anyone in need around you. Like what you do to them. You do to me so I would actually say like again if we follow Jesus's ethic we would never be able to treat someone like this because I could never do that to Jesus like you know if I see Jesus in my son and then I have this sense? Well god asked me to kill my son like no I'm not gonna kill Jesus. Like Jesus is in my son you know so there's no way I could follow that because of my faith in Jesus because I know that it would be you know contrary and again here's where this gets sad to me and this is there's been examples of this but like people who have mental illness. And hear voices and they perceive that that is you know the voice of god and like well god told me to go and kill someone and they use the story of Abraham as justification and sadly the way most christians understand this passage there really isn't a way to refute that.

38:43.49
forestandtrees
Ah.

38:59.72
forestandtrees
Um.

38:59.73
Jeremy
You know I mean the traditional way of an it. Well yeah, they just had really good faith and they unfortunately they were just hearing voices and it wasn't it's like well how do we know? Abraham wasn't hearing voices then like there's no, you know you have to have some other criteria as to why you would or would not do this and to me I would adamantly not do that because. I have seen Jesus I have seen the person of Jesus who god looks like and I would say that is absolutely contrary to who Jesus is.

39:29.17
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean that's that's kind of a big ah another topic in general but I feel like that's kind of just a problematic implication with the way that god speaks through the prophets in the bible. You know I mean like because like I've asked a question before like why doesn't god just. Communicate more clearly. Why does he speak through specific people because it's like especially when you get to the like the the major prophets in the old testament. It's always this pattern of god gives his true message to 1 guy who's like wailing in the streets and no one's listening to him and I just feel like. You're you're setting yourself up for failure right? because anyone could say I have a message from god and no one will listen to me. You know we have this to date. We literally have people like on the sidewalk proclaiming. What god is is speaking through them and and no one listens them. But maybe those people are the real prophets of today. You know who's who's to say.

40:17.79
Jeremy
Well yeah, who's to say is you ultimately look for the fruit in their life and whether what they're saying you know makes any sense and you have this all throughout the scriptures you know and there's times where the the actual prophets of God you know smack talk the fake prophets and like all right.

40:25.75
forestandtrees
M.

40:36.61
Jeremy
If that comes to pass everything I've said is false and you know this guy's true. But if it doesn't come to pass this guy's a phony you know and it's like it's biblical smack talk and you know god would eventually say like yeah oh this one is you know, proven true. But this is where faith comes in and so yeah, you have the same things today.

40:38.17
forestandtrees
M.

40:54.78
forestandtrees
Ah.

40:56.80
Jeremy
Which is where we need to rely on the Holy spirit inside of us to say all right? How do I discern the the street corner person yelling at me in a megaphone whether or not that is true or or the preacher on stage on a weekend like how do I determine whether what he's saying is true. You know or anything in between you know, like.

41:07.63
forestandtrees
Um.

41:13.42
forestandtrees
Yeah.

41:15.67
Jeremy
There's got to be something else other than I just blindly listen to a person telling me. No you you have to like literally use your brain which is why we do? This podcast is not that you would listen to well Jeremy's answer is this. That's right answer Jeff's answer no it's teaching you to think teaching you to like.

41:33.23
forestandtrees
Um.

41:33.63
Jeremy
Apply Faith apply reason apply your doubt and go how do I wrestle through this so that when you're sitting in church or when you you know meet that Christian on the street corner or when someone hands you a pamphlet or something you have some criteria to logically reason through is their merit in what they're saying or not.

41:51.38
forestandtrees
Yeah, do you do you think the podcasters are the profits of today Jeremy.

41:59.11
Jeremy
Wow, That's a it's a broad broad brush to to be painting with ah I think what's interesting. So here's you know I think the local church is still incredibly powerful and offers a lot. So I'm not I'm not writing the church off I think that.

42:13.49
forestandtrees
Okay.

42:16.20
Jeremy
1 of the limitations of the local church is that it's a monologue. It's it's not designed especially in its current cultural form in America it's not designed to engage much. Um, you know dialogue debate discussion and so I think one of the challenges is if you attend a weekend service and. You don't agree with the person on stage a lot of people feel stuck like well what do I do like do I have to leave churches you know and the problem with that is you attend any church long enough. The pastor is going to say something you don't like or something you don't agree with and then it's like all right, go to.

42:40.89
forestandtrees
Ah.

42:51.36
Jeremy
Church down the street until they say something you don't like and then you you know you're just perpetually church hopping and so I think that's one of the inherent limitations of that model. Well what podcasting is allowing and you know what we try to do with like some of our comm community mico events is create much more of a dialogue create much more of a it's not a 1 person talking head at you. But you're gonna hear nuance you're gonna hear discussion. You're gonna hear you know room to to get into that and so even this you know we've we've only added 1 more voice to what a normal church service would be but the fact that we have 2 voices from 2 points of view. Is is allowing people to go oh I find myself somewhere in this conversation and then this can go into you know a group format or group discussion and sort of things even with like our upcoming community events we have we have 2 coming up next week I'm going to really focus on. You know, like really leaning into the dialogue with people and getting them to be way more engaged because that to me is where we've got to keep we've got to keep finding ways to do that where it's not just hey christianity is is listening to the right person talk all the time. But sanity is learning how to engage yourself in the conversation think for yourself and be an active part of you know whatever it is that that you believe.

44:09.74
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's cool. Wow I Appreciate you giving such a thorough and thoughtful answer just like to kind of a joke question that was great.

44:19.28
Jeremy
Um, um, ah I don't I don't I'm always a sucker for your jokes. Jeff you know I just gotta go for them. But I think there's I think there's a reason why podcasts are taken off is you know and you and I talk about this off the air a lot but like we don't have any time constraints here. So.

44:31.83
forestandtrees
Ah.

44:36.34
Jeremy
Could have an episode go 45 minutes we can have episode go 2 hours if we wanted I don't know how maybe would stick around with us that long. Maybe maybe they would. But that's the beauty of this again this unique model now again it has its own limitations as well. But like you're in a weekend service and you know I I was a lead pastor I understand this you have children's ministry. You have parking you have you know lots of logistics and so it's like that all limits what you're able to do and any model has its pros and cons I think the podcasting model is obviously meeting a need for a lot of people and you can listen to this watch it. However, you're digesting this material. You know whenever you want.

45:12.71
forestandtrees
M.

45:15.92
Jeremy
And so you can be on a run. You can be on your driving to your commute. You can be watching it Youtube clips like that's I just think ah it's a cool way to engage in a conversation.

45:26.81
forestandtrees
Yeah, it is. It is cool and yeah, we ah we appreciate all of our listeners and everyone who's who's chiming in and adding to the conversation. That's great.

45:35.53
Jeremy
I do love I love the text I get each week and the emails and it's cool. All right? So I got a question for you. Ah, we just we. We're talking about Abraham so it's gonna be a good transition for us before we get into your your left field question that we're gonna land on ah Romans four. Verse 18 says something that I think is is beautiful says even when there was no reason for hope Abraham kept hoping believing that he would become the father of many nations. So the idea of there you could say there was no reason for hope but Abraham kept hoping. And and I think about this too and this is something I've said and I think about this line a lot like there isn't always a reason to be optimistic in life like there's plenty of things I look at and go that's description like there's not a reason to be optimistic on Xy and z but if you're a Christian I would suggest there is. Always reason to be hopeful not because you're hopeful for humanity or you're hopeful that we're gonna get our act together. But you're hopeful for what ultimately Jesus can do and so if you believe in Jesus I don't think you should ever be without hope and I think Paul's kind of channeling this. Out of the Abraham story into like what it means for us today. Christine Kane has said it like this sometimes it takes hoping against hope to see the promises of god realized in our lives hope is not shallow. It's faith so she's.

47:07.20
Jeremy
Make an argument like this is actually an element of what faith is is sometimes hoping against what you might see so Jeff I'm curious from your vantage point. Do you see the idea of hoping when there is no reason for hope as a naive thing that christians do. Or do you think there's something to this even from your point of view.

47:26.57
forestandtrees
Yeah that's that's great I agree with this sentiment I think yes, it's naive but it is also beautiful and it is necessary for survival in this world. It makes me think of in return of the king. When one of the hobbits asks gandalph is there any hope for sammon frodo to make it on this mission and Gandalf says just a fool's hope right? That's that's all they have to go on to complete this mission and you know there's all kinds of stories of. Survival and people overcoming the odds and and coming out the other side. Ah, you know when logically there's no reason to have hope and hope really is the the core of the story there of how do they? How did they get through whatever scenario. So um, and it's like a personal story because it made me think about. You know with the story of Abraham and Sarah and this the story that many people are familiar familiar with with trying to get pregnant trying to have a baby It's it's a common motif throughout the bible of whenever there's an important person born. It always starts with the struggle for their parents to get pregnant in the first place and it's you know it's this whole. Ethical question that I I think about all the time and I ask my friends about because a lot of my friends have kids and I don't and I think about like the ethical questions of is it even right to bring a child into this world and because of the suffering and because of the environmental impact and all these things and I've had these.

48:58.30
forestandtrees
I've had this conversation with my sister who's had similar concerns to me. She's way more environmentally conscious than me and she had all these hesitations about whether um, she wanted to have ah have a child or not as well and at one point she texted me and said yep I decided. I do want to have kids and this was the quote that changed my mind so this is a quote from Audrey Lord that says if we can keep this world spinning and remain upon it long enough. The future belongs to us and our children. So from her perspective. She was saying like having a child is this. Defiant active hope and choosing hope over despair with all of the the suffering and bleakness we find in the world. So yeah I'm I'm pro hope even though I can default to the logicalness of despair in. And all kinds of things in this world.

49:55.69
Jeremy
Dang I was beautiful from the lips of a skeptic ladies and gentlemen a reason for hope I like that let's get stuff.

49:57.77
forestandtrees
Oh thank you.

50:08.23
forestandtrees
Yeah, thanks. Okay, do you have any follow up or so all said amen wow we're I'm taking you to church today Jeremy buckle up all right? Well okay.

50:10.42
Jeremy
I have nothing that that was so well said I Just yes amen.

50:24.54
forestandtrees
Perfect, no no feedback no notes I love it all right? last last question that ah verse 20 says Abraham never wavered in believing god's promise. In fact, his faith grew stronger and in this he brought glory to god. So I acknowledge as you said this is a little bit of a left term. Maybe this is a little bit nitpicky but when I heard the verse when I was looking for questions and I heard Paul say Abraham never wavered in his faith. Maybe think wait a minute wasn't the story of when when Abraham and Sarah were waiting to get pregnant with Isaac. Didn't they kind of waver in their faith because they got impatient and decided to um, create a child with their with ah Sarah's slave haggar which is the origin story of Ishmael Ah kind of. Kind of a long story There's there's a lot of implications to this but it made me think of a conversation I had pretty recently with a family member I was asking him about circumcision in preparation for a previous episode and he brought up something where he said ah where he was talking about a you know because Abraham was the first one of god commanded to be circumcised and then. Talk about other stuff in genesis and he said you know if if Abraham was faithful and he hadn't diverted and had Ishmael with Hagar then his words he said we wouldn't have the muslim problem we do today so to criticize the drunk people a little bit. You know some some ah some ah an islamophobic slip perhaps. But.

51:50.20
forestandtrees
And it made me think about ah or maybe kind of research a little bit. You know is the origin of Islam from Ishmael I've kind of heard that I know that's kind of the mythology of where where islamic christianity diverge I would say the bible is not totally clear on it. But that does seem to be the common understanding as far as I can say so. Just wanted to get your thoughts in this again acknowledge that it's it's a big topic. But do you think this is a problematic worldview that christians have this view that islam as a religion is a is a product of Abraham's disobedience and a distortion of true faith that we're supposed to have.

52:26.99
Jeremy
Wow, it's quite quite the drunk person quote to use our Tolstoy reference from last week um yeah so I would say to to start your your initial question yes Abraham wavered like I don't know how else you would read the story. He starts you know.

52:32.49
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

52:46.95
Jeremy
Literally hey I'll I'll figure this out on my own because I don't think God's going to get around to this So here's how I can make this happen So I don't know how you'd read it other than that. So I land there as to you know? is it problematic to view Islam in this way I don't think it's a problem to disagree with someone.

52:53.10
forestandtrees
Um.

53:04.79
Jeremy
And I hope at a minimum you and I are modeling that for people now. Obviously our disagreements are not gigantic. You know we we don't we're probably more alike and most things than we are different but we have a variety of. Disagreements of things that we don't see eye to eye. Obviously 1 of them being how we interpret god you know how we make sense of a faith in all this. So I don't think that's a problem to say hey I do not agree with Islam or I do not agree with a muslim and I think if we ever get to that place where we can't even acknowledge that then.

53:38.15
forestandtrees
Um.

53:40.72
Jeremy
Yeah we're good luck having any conversation with anybody if you know I can't even acknowledge I don't see it your way and I disagree with many christians on a lot of things. So again, there's not There's no animosity built into that. It's just an acknowledgment of yeah I don't see it the way you see it and that's okay and how i. How I engage with you in the disagreement is almost more important to me than the disagreement right? Do I still look like Jesus to you when I'm disagreeing with you and this is a check I have just on a personal note you know when I get lit up in the comments each week from these very conservative. You know people. I always you know I usually have ah like my first reaction I want to say to them and it's sarcastic and snarky and that's like that's the first thing that comes to my mind and then I'll like ask myself. Okay, does that look like Jesus and usually the answer is no so I don't say it I just you know, just. Think it to myself give myself some time and then if I can write them back without being snarky or you know super antagonistic then I usually try if I can and sometimes it's like no this is I'm not I'm not going to get into that one but that to me is more important like I if I cease to look like Jesus and I become some total. A whole in the way that I am interacting people online then that's my issue not necessarily people who disagree with me now as to the second part like I would say I think it is incredibly offensive to say.

55:10.46
Jeremy
About someone's culture and belief system that it is a product of disobedience I don't know how else to yeah I I don't know how just on like it's just yeah I would say don't ever don't ever say to a muslim that you think what they believe is a product disobedience.

55:14.50
forestandtrees
Right.

55:30.44
Jeremy
Um, just for them as a person like that's not a kind thing to say to anyone and you wouldn't want anyone saying that about what you believe like oh the only reason you believe that is because someone messed up and you believe their error you know like it's just an incredibly insulting way to frame something I would also say. It's a poor reading of the text and so if you know if you're a christian that wants to just bash on islam as it's a product of the of Abraham's disobedience I want to invite you to read the bible again because I think you've missed a few things in it I'm gonna give you 2 just 2 examples. That again, we don't have the time to go into this whole story and this is obviously a huge question that would warrant multiple episodes easily but quickly I would say here's a couple things. Um, so you have this really profound moment when things start to go wrong with.

56:18.50
forestandtrees
Ah.

56:29.14
Jeremy
Hagar and Ishmael and Sarah which is Abraham's wife is now threatened by her and is like look. She's our issue now she has ishmael I don't want her around and so she sends Hagar and ishmael away basically go die in the desert we don't want have anything to do with us. Here's what genesis says about that this is genesis 16 verses 7 through 7 through 13 the angel of the Lord found Hagar beside a spring of water in the wilderness along the road to sure the angel said to her hagar Sara servant where have you come from. And where are you going I'm running away from my mistress Sarah she said the angel of a lord said to her return to your mistress and submit to her authority then he added I will give you more descendants than you can count and the angel also said you are now pregnant and will give birth to a son. You were to name him ishmael which means god hears so the name Ishmael means god hears for the lord has heard your cry of distress this son of yours will be a wild man as untamed as a wild donkey. He will raise his fists against everyone and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives therefore hagar used another name to refer to the lord who had spoken to her. She said you are the god who sees me she also said have I truly seen the one.

58:03.32
Jeremy
Who sees me here's the point. There's 1 verse in there verse 12 that people love to cherry pick. He's gonna be a wild man untamed as a donkey. He's gonna be in hostility and everyone and they almost like that's a prescription of like this is how Islam's gonna be and I've heard christians use this. That's a prescription to to. You know to describe the disobedience or the errrant ways and I would just say if you read that in context I think it's more an an acknowledgement. It's descriptive rather than prescriptive. It's describing what is going to happen not saying it has to be this way but saying this is this is what's gonna be because of the way this is all played out. But if you read that story and conclude god doesn't care about Hagar and god doesn't care about Ishmael. You have totally missed god's role in the story. In fact, she's one of the I think the first wanted to name god in genesis Hagar is you are the god who sts me and in this idea.

58:57.45
forestandtrees
Well yeah.

59:02.74
Jeremy
Have I seen the god who sees me I mean's like beautiful, a beautiful connection hagar the woman out of the marriage right? The one who didn't belong who has the son that isn't going to be the son of the promise and she's told you're gonna have all these you know descendants and all this. God absolutely is taking care of her is providing for is meeting her in her moment of feeling like I'm I'm totally overwhelmed. So in addition to to this. The fact you have to acknowledge god absolutely loved Hagar god absolutely loved Ishmael that is. Very clear in the text in addition to that Abraham loved Ishmael so you can't even say well yeah god might have loved him but like Abraham hated this son? No he did it. You keep reading it to genesis 17 verses 18 through 20 so Abraham said to god. May ishmael live under your special blessing. He's like look hook him up. Let him have all this but god replied no sarah your wife will give birth to a son for you. You will name him isaac and I will confirm my covenant with him and his descendants as an everlasting covenant. Yeah, this is the part christians focus on but keep reading as for Ishmael I will bless him also just as you have asked I will make him extremely fruitful and multiply his descendants. He will become the father of 12 princes and I will make him a great.

01:00:37.20
Jeremy
Nation part of the reason why Ishmael is blessed the way he is is because Abraham literally asked god to Bless Ishmael so if you read genesis you have to conclude god loves Hagar god loves Ishmael. And Abraham absolutely loved Ishmael and so to then conclude this is just this mode of disobedience thing got out of control. This is all bad I would just say you're you're missing what is actually there in the text and on top of that I'll end my answer with this this argument that I I will absolutely stand by. Almost every christian I know would benefit immensely from hanging out with more muslims than they do just Mike drop right there that almost every single person that says they're a christian you would benefit from hanging out and actually.

01:01:26.20
forestandtrees
Um.

01:01:32.93
Jeremy
Spending time with a muslim when I have traveled the world and I have met muslims all around the world I have always been amazed at how kind and generous and thoughtful and nothing like the stereotypes that we often give of them now again are there Bad muslims. Yes, There's bad everything right? But to so to lump any group. Usually it comes from you don't actually know a muslim. You've maybe never met a muslim and so you have some caricature of them that is easy to villainize I would say go and meet real muslims get to know them.

01:01:54.33
forestandtrees
Um.

01:02:10.82
Jeremy
And you will probably be amazed at what amazing people that they are.

01:02:16.88
forestandtrees
Yeah that's that's a great answer I love that it's it is really interesting. So I I wrote this question to you and then I went back in genesis and like read through the story a couple times and tried to make sense of it. Yeah, it is hard to kind of. I don't know it's it's weird to try to figure out like what what the dynamics are it seems clearly that Abraham and and orbram and sarahai at the time are are very cruel and abusive to Hagar. Um, you know, like as a one one commenter ac cominator I was I was looking at pointing out that.

01:02:45.32
Jeremy
M.

01:02:54.80
forestandtrees
I mean abert you could say that Abram basically raped tagar because had sex with her without her consent because she's she's a slave she didn't have permission in that sense and basically you know just like using her in this. You know very ancient near east way of like all that matters is getting into the future. All that matters is having ancent just using her. As a descendant and then you know later changing your mind and just discarding or banishing your to the desert. Yeah, and then it is fascinating that god still blesses Ishmael but but makes the distinction if you're not under the covenant. But you still have your own blessing and get to form your own nation.

01:03:29.47
Jeremy
We yeah.

01:03:32.59
forestandtrees
Yeah I don't know just fascinating stuff and then the the other thing that that's just very strange to think about is ah later with the story. We just talked about of Abraham going to sacrifice Isaac god says to Abraham ah take your son your only son isaac and sacrifice him so that's just a weird thing of like why is god saying that. Isaac is your only son because Ishmael is also Abraham's son right? yeah.

01:03:56.81
Jeremy
Yeah, but well I think there's a couple ways you can read that it's the only son legitimately through his marriage right? So in that culture Ishmael would not have been considered you know, ah the same as isaac just like oh that's.

01:04:02.37
forestandtrees
M.

01:04:13.71
Jeremy
That was your servant that wasn't your wife right? So you know there's there's Sarah I had a very elevated status compared to Hagar. You know in that in that relationship but then also you know when god has said like the promise is going to be through isaac then god's operating on there's only one person. So which gets back to the point of like Abraham going. Okay well, you're saying this can only be through isaac and now you're asking me to kill isaac logically god just doesn't make any sense unless Abraham believed all right? You're going to bring isaac back to life after I do this because you have said isaac's the one that is going to happen through and now you're asking me to kill isaac.

01:04:39.57
forestandtrees
Um.

01:04:49.70
forestandtrees
Okay.

01:04:51.53
Jeremy
So either you know? so again, it all kind of makes sense if you stick within the narrative of what Abraham is being told.

01:04:56.62
forestandtrees
Yeah I get for me I was kind of interpreting it as like maybe because they had banished hagarnishmael like Abraham and Sarah just considered them dead to them like you're not my son anymore kind of thinking but again that was that was just sort of just the way I was able to make sense of it. But.

01:05:12.40
Jeremy
I don't think Abraham ever felt like that or ishmael personally.

01:05:18.33
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, no, that's good I appreciate I guess you know sorry cut sort of stacking questions on top of questions here. But I don't know just that really stuck with me when someone when I heard someone say that of like this is the the muslim problem. Ah you know so I appreciate you calling out the. That and I pursue your words on that. Well, what's your what's your take on like why does Paul say that Abraham never wavered then ah like the original question.

01:05:44.76
Jeremy
Yeah I don't know that's that's a that's a good question. Um.

01:05:48.43
forestandtrees
Maybe it means like once you get because because that's everything with Hagar and ishma is pre the sacrifice moment. So like maybe he never wavered. Yeah, he never wavered.

01:05:55.95
Jeremy
Well was gonna say if you focus on in light of the sacrifice. Maybe that's what he's saying is like and the moment he's pulled to kill isaac. He goes he goes through with it and I guess that's that's a easier way to make sense of that you know if he's if Paul's has that story in mind.

01:06:14.14
forestandtrees
Right? Which again like Paul doesn't specifically say that. Ah though James does James says that you don't think Abraham was doing a good thing by being willing to make the sacrifice but you know maybe we can probably talk about that.

01:06:27.82
forestandtrees
A few years from now when I tackle James ah all right? Well man what an episode we we talked about so much this this this Abraham guy you know he's ah he's really something.

01:06:30.27
Jeremy
Ah, stay tuned. Ah, that's great.

01:06:39.88
Jeremy
We're all, we're all over the place.

01:06:45.92
Jeremy
Quite a few quite a few first.

01:06:46.13
forestandtrees
A lot of stories that guy and we didn't even cover all anything else to to add Jeremy you feel good.

01:06:55.26
Jeremy
I'll leave it there I will ah said what I said.

01:06:58.52
forestandtrees
Okay, okay, so what you said all right? Well yeah, thanks for listening everybody. We appreciate it. Ah yeah, the word we got through the Abraham chapter I promise to try to focus a little bit more on new testament stuff less old testament stories. Next time in chapter 5 there's there's a lot to get to so we hope you'll stick around all right talk to later.