Romans 3 - Good 'n Evil

The line separating good and evil runs between Jeremy & Jef as we hit our first stop on the Romans Road.

Topics
Are we focusing too much on bad Christians?
Are we even allowed to ask if God is good?
Are people basically good or evil?
Paul’s low view of humanity and religious trauma

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Transcript

00:00.00
Jeremy
Hey everybody we are back coming at you with another episode of the forest and the trees my name is Jeremy and I'm here with my friend. Jeff.

00:11.82
forestandtrees
The line separating good and evil passes not through podcast streams. But right through the human heart. Ah yes, wolf we'll find out.

00:16.95
Jeremy
Does it.

00:25.54
forestandtrees
Wait We'll discuss you know we're we're solving the answers to the universe on this episode I think.

00:28.37
Jeremy
We are getting into a lot of a lot of of kind of like basic human nature here. Good and evil stuff that regardless of way you're coming at in your beliefs I think we all kind of wonder this you know like hey are we all doomed from the start or is there hope or. Where what?? what's going on which which direction are we headed as society.

00:49.16
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's that's a very good question. Jeremy.

00:54.66
Jeremy
So today. We've got some fun topics. We're going to look at whether or not we focus too much on bad christians we're going to explore whether or not god can brag about gods self if we are born. Good. Or are we born little devils and why our answer to that question matters immensely all in 1 episode and this is this is gonna be fun all in chapter 3 and I'm gonna start us off with a little curveball for my friend Jeff I'm not even gonna let you. Ask your questions yet I'm just I'm gonna go guns ablazing I'm gonna start with a question for you because right off the bat. There's an interesting argument that Paul makes and I want you take on Paul's argument here and then I'm gonna I'm gonna spice up his argument. With ah with a russian theologian just to make it extra flavorful so romans 3 verses 3 through 4 say this just because they were unfaithful does that mean god will be unfaithful of course not.

01:54.23
forestandtrees
Awesome! hit me.

02:08.32
Jeremy
Even if everyone else is a liar god is true. So Paul's talking about how sometimes we look at someone following something and we say oh that person is doing a bad job of it therefore the thing that they're following must not be true. Obviously this applies to you know christians who aren't following Jesus in a way that draws people to Jesus and so you know Paul's argument is like well does that make god bad no and this reminds me of something Leo Tolstoy the russian theologian and author. Ah, once said he said attack me I do this myself, but attack me rather than the path I follow and which I point out to anyone who asks me where I think it lies if I know the way home and I am walking along it drunkenly. Is it any less the right way because I am staggering from side to side I like I like his argument quite a bit so basically Tulsa is like yeah we've all been there look if I know the right way home and I'm walking that road but I've had a.

03:10.27
forestandtrees
Yeah, we've all been there.

03:21.26
Jeremy
Ah, few too many drinks then you look at that guy and say I'm not gonna follow that guy. He's drunk. But what if I'm drunk and I am still walking the right way home does it cease to be the right way home just because I'm swerving from side to side. This is Tolstoy's take on romans three if you will. I don't know if he had romans 3 in mind but you could see how these connect so Jeff here's my question for you. Is it possible that you have focused too much on the drunk people walking the path and you have overlooked the fact that the path actually leads the right way.

03:59.61
forestandtrees
Yeah, great Question. So I Really like this um analogy to sort of make sense of the human condition. The idea that maybe not just Christians Maybe all of us are kind of drunk stumbling confused trying to find our way. Um, yeah, that that checks Out. And I wonder if just religion in general or the variety of religions are just one of many ways people are utilizing to try to find the way like figure out what what the meaning of life is where they're going um and And. Answer your question in terms of the drunk people I would say I hope I'm not focusing too much on the drunk people I know I certainly have got got some digs in about like specific pastors or like you know American evangelical Christian culture. All of that stuff is is very very easy to criticize and it's. You know we do it all the time for sure and maybe they deserve it. But Also it's very easy to um, defend those types of criticisms by saying well those are just people you know these are flawed people who make mistakes but you know the bible is the good stuff or you know some if you don't just agree with that. Maybe just like.. It's not about the people. It's not about the bible. It's about God So I would say what I'm trying to do with with this podcast and with the way I'm crafting my questions I'm trying to mostly interrogate the claims of a bible because that that's something that bothers me is I feel like the bible has a lot of.

05:31.44
forestandtrees
Bad ideas in it I suppose that I want to ask questions about and try to figure out is is there a way to make sense of these and make them more palatable or make more sense that kind of thing. Um, and of course you could also say you know well the bible is written by man. The bible is flawed. So if you want to say you know that. The true way is God himself. Ah then that's the very vague and hard to understand hard to follow path because God doesn't seem to be. He doesn't seem to speak very clearly if if he's lighting the way as we're all stumbling home. It's.. It's a very dim light as far as I can tell. Ah, so yeah, yeah I Hope not I'm trying I'm trying to focus on the text and and not spend too much time criticizing the the drunk people even though it is very tempting and easy to do that. Sometimes.

06:27.62
Jeremy
You got me thinking you know because you made the point that aren't we all just you know the drunk people walking along and I think that there's there's something about which we're gonna get into. We know whether we're good or bad. But I think we can acknowledge you know, no one. No one is walking any path perfectly there There is no one you could follow.

06:28.10
forestandtrees
What do you think.

06:38.54
forestandtrees
Oh.

06:46.53
Jeremy
Any any road you want to you know, take that you would say that person is flawless. You know has no issues at all therefore their path must absolutely be better. So if that's true then this is what you just got me thinking if we all are you know, drunkenly walking whatever path we're on.

06:46.56
forestandtrees
For sure.

07:04.90
forestandtrees
Are.

07:06.46
Jeremy
Then the path seems to matter even more because if you're drunk. The only way you're going to get home is if you really know the path and that path actually does lead where you need to delete right? So if you know if you drop a drunk person in a city and they don't know where they are. And say get home. They're not going to be able get home like they they don't There's no path. They know of so you know that condition is going to make it even harder. But if you say hey this path is so you know you know it so well and it does actually lead where you to go that even when you're drunk. This path can make you home. It. It almost makes it even sweeter to me and I hadn't really thought about that way. But I don't know what do you think? can it can it even be better because it gets drunk people to to where they're trying to go.

07:58.77
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, it can be I mean I think that's what the quote is getting at right is like this is ah you know if you want to say that the quote is about like the bible or christianity or like I don't just like the. Essential doctrines or something like that right? it's it's this framework that can get you there No matter how imperfect no matter how much you zig and Zag on your way is is that how you're interpreting the quote.

08:26.59
Jeremy
Well this is gonna come as a shock to you I'm gonna interpret the path as Jesus so I know that you're gonna be stunned by that. Ah so I would say you know anyone who claims to follow Jesus if we think of Jesus as the path or a path at least you know and.

08:31.70
forestandtrees
Oh right? of course. Ah.

08:43.64
forestandtrees
Um.

08:44.58
Jeremy
I would be. You know anyone is gonna follow Jesus imperfectly right? So does having Jesus knowing that hey any path I'm gonna go down I'm gonna swerve or Zigzag then I really you know the path matters because if you don't have a good path. You ain't getting home.

09:02.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, and in terms of so we've we've talked about following Jesus before in terms of like what does that mean because some people say like Jesus you know some christians say like oh Jesus called me to move and take this job and some people some christians like parade to Jesus for direction and just.

09:02.91
Jeremy
Like you're you're going to be stuck.

09:22.82
forestandtrees
Hear nothing. So so then what do you? do you know? yeah.

09:25.58
Jeremy
Well I don't I don't think it removes faith Jeff we we still have we solve faith. We still have need for a podcast because it's not going to be all figured out today in romans three but I think you know this is Paul's argument hey just because some people were unfaithful or some people had issues.

09:31.39
forestandtrees
Um.

09:43.83
Jeremy
And truthfully I would just say you know I have I have lost you know mentors of mine and ministry that are no longer a ministry because of moral failure and you know that's like a personal That's a really hard thing I get to speak for myself. That's a really hard thing to wrestle with you know and there's there's.

09:55.49
forestandtrees
Um.

10:03.74
Jeremy
Ah, you know 1 pastor in particular who fairly recently you know a lot came out and this is a guy that had helped me work through some of my own theological questions and you know was a source for me when it's like hey I'm stuck on this. How do I you know work through it and then everything I ever saw from him. He did look like Jesus.

10:05.66
forestandtrees
M.

10:22.35
Jeremy
And you know I had seen him out of the spotlight now again I'm not defending what he did or or negating it I'm just saying I I wasn't aware of that version of him and so I think there are you know this is what I think Paul's saying is like any path you follow and you know I suppose you might have your. Hees of Atheism Jeff you know and and what if you found out 1 of them was a total jerk or you know, ah abused his wife or something like you would still want that path or that argument or you know the way he says it to be valid even though you're saying wow this this is an issue with the person.

10:45.44
forestandtrees
Yeah.

10:59.49
forestandtrees
Yeah, well that's interesting because I've definitely of course I'm aware of all kinds of like high profile like pastors and Christian leaders who have had a fall from Grace for some kind of moral failure. So that's you know again that is really ah obvious and easy to criticize those people I would say I haven't seen a. A ton of that in my life. You know, like most most of my family a lot of my old friends are Christian and you know they're all good people and they seem to be like on a good path in life. They don't seem to be yeah I haven't I haven't seen a lot of that that kind of like moral failure in my own life too. Ah, make you know make me have a crisis of faith in that way I would ask like um, do would you say like just christians in general christianity as a whole do they seem to be better people than non-christians morally, you know to kind of bring up the the meager moral fruits argument.

11:54.80
Jeremy
Yeah I think you know the the one stat that comes to mind that and I and I don't have this off top of my head but I've read this numerous places but like when you come to like measuring generosity which you know people can measure these are real numbers of you know what groups of people give to what.

11:54.91
forestandtrees
You know I'm asking.

12:05.86
forestandtrees
Um.

12:11.36
Jeremy
I Think all the stats or at least the majority of them would indicate that christians by and large give more money to more causes. You know to try to improve things than any other group. So I think there's there are there are indicators like that that I would say yeah that's cool like you know I think.

12:21.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

12:29.31
forestandtrees
Um.

12:30.90
Jeremy
I think if you follow Jesus it should make you a more generous person holistically right? So that would be an indicator I would want to see yeah like I would want to see more generosity with christians the problem I think is that it's not It's not like that across the board. You know you don't see every single you know. Okay, ah you know sexuality is improved if you're a Christian like I wouldn't make that argument at all. So you know you have some of these other ones you go? Well maybe they're more generous but they're not necessarily kinder and they're not necessarily more loving and they're not necessarily better examples with you know how they pursue their sexuality and.

13:03.52
forestandtrees
Yeah.

13:06.42
Jeremy
Where I think this gets tricky too and this is like we're talking like at a big level. But if you if you narrow this down even you know when you talk about okay which sub sub versions of christianity. So like which version of Christian now. Are we talking you know there are certain christians in the way that they talk about god and the way they. Treat people I look at them and say I want nothing to do with your version of god and that happens a lot where I'm looking I'm like holy cow the way you treat people like you must have a nasty version of Jesus and the hard part is it's almost like that disproves what Paul's saying here because you know Paul was like yeah well just because they.

13:31.29
forestandtrees
Um.

13:45.40
Jeremy
People like that doesn't mean but I do think you know I think that Paul's argument can be true and we can also make a general blanket statement that you know ideas have consequences if you believe bad things or false things or harmful things then they can produce harmful you know decisions. That you're gonna make in your life and and I think you know what you believe matters and what you believe about god matters and it affects the way you live but there there is some tension here of none of us are gonna perfectly articulate any path that we walk down so I don't know I don't know if we just have to agree to live in the tension or. Or the messiness or what we do with it.

14:24.14
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean I think no matter what you believe you have to to some extent agree that like the world is mysterious and and we don't fully have the answers right? We're all, we're all kind of blindly going on faith in that sense.

14:37.86
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

14:40.23
forestandtrees
Your your stat about um, like donating more money. Do you know? Do you know if that includes tithing or if that's over and above tithing to churches because I mean if it if it includes tithing then that wouldn't surprise me at all because you know Christians are kind of not required. But.

14:49.77
Jeremy
Ah, um, that's a good question. Ah.

14:58.88
forestandtrees
Pressured at least to give 10% to their churches. So okay, yeah.

15:01.57
Jeremy
I Think it's not just tithing but again I'm not staring at those numbers. So I don't don't want to mislead anyone here. But ah, you know I'll occasionally see some article written on you know and and it's truthfully the reason it stands out is because there's not many like this.

15:15.69
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

15:18.49
Jeremy
Where it's just like oh christians are actually doing a really good job. The generosity one seems to be 1 that I see from time to time if people going look christians are actually they're actually giving to worthy causes you know and I think it's more in these articles are talking about outside of the church rather than just.

15:33.67
forestandtrees
Um, totally, but that's I mean that's something I think about a lot for myself for sure because like yeah I used to tithe regularly I gave away 10% of my income to the church. Um, and since you know past few years I I no longer do that.

15:34.79
Jeremy
Yeah, because yeah within the church would be a little self-serving.

15:49.96
forestandtrees
And I do make donations to charities. But it's it's much less than 10 percent of my income honestly and that's something I've sort of been thinking about and challenging myself on of like well if I've already proved that I can live off of giving away 10% of my personal income to something. So yeah, why? yeah. What if all atheists myself included gave ah 10 % of their income to charities they believed in that'd be pretty radical in my opinion.

16:14.32
Jeremy
Well and to go back to our last episode. You know what? if you found a way to use 10% of your income for environmental issues.

16:21.91
forestandtrees
Yeah, exactly yeah wow, all right here hit here. You're hitting me where hurts Jeremy I know.

16:27.49
Jeremy
Call it atheist times.

16:34.45
Jeremy
Ah, hey it's what it's what you get to do when you ask the questions you get to just go for it all right? I've had my fun.

16:40.10
forestandtrees
Ah, been called out. That's that's a good challenge all all ah I'll check with I'll check with my account and see what I can do ah okay so of ah I've got a question for you. Yeah in verse six. It says if god were not entirely fair. How would he be qualified. To judge the world. So I just want to call out I think I'm taking this verse a little bit out of context for the way I'm asking because the context is Paula specifically talking about people who are trying to find some kind of loophole for like what if I just send more so I can get more grace. He he talks about this a lot in the chapter so that must have been a real problem.

17:18.70
Jeremy
They were stoked to send to to show how good god is well we're gonna make god so good wait till he sees what I do on Friday night

17:18.17
forestandtrees
With the church of rome here. Yeah people people just kept bushing like come on Paul it's come on if I the more I send the the more grace. Yeah. Yeah, exactly so just just to acknowledge that I but I still think it it speaks to this christian idea that that I think Paul talks about in romans as well of just the idea of like of course god is fair and just because he's god you know how could he not be It reminds me of genesis. 25 what it says shall not the judge of all the earth do right? and isaiah Fifty Five Nine so my wayss are higher than your ways. My thoughts are higher than your thoughts. Basically just this idea of like you shouldn't question god also the book of job where. According to the story job did nothing wrong, right? He was righteous and without sin all this bad stuff happened to him and as far as I can tell I would say the only sin that job committed was the sin of daring to question god because when he finally does get an audience with god at the end. God kind of rebukes him and says how dare you question me and doesn't actually answer his questions right? Yeah I figured you might, but ah, okay, and sorry just 1 more one more thought about this whole like are we allowed to question.

18:29.60
Jeremy
Yeah, okay I have a different take on that I don't Okay, keep you keep going.

18:43.20
forestandtrees
God or not or like what does that even mean because because of the position he holds. It also reminds me of this question. The atheists get about if god if you knew that god were real. Would you worship him. So I think this this is a really tough question because I think the answer is probably yes. Either way because I think okay if god looks like Jeremy's version of god and he actually is very good and loving and there's some explanation for all the suffering in the world and stuff and he actually is a good person then okay maybe he is worthy of worship. But if god. Is more like the kind of the traditional fire and brimstone view where you literally have to worship him and if you refuse you'll be tortured for eternity then I got to say yeah I would surrender out of a cowardly sense of self-preseration. But of course god is not actually good in this scenario. He's. A coercive tyrant but you're not allowed to say that out loud if you want to get into heaven all right? So all that say is god actually good fair and just or does he just get to say that about himself because he's in charge.

19:54.94
Jeremy
That's a great question and I agree with your with your logic there of you know if God is good and you knew for a fact God was good or you know, believed it with with some sense of surety I Guess then you would respond to that which is what you know what I have I do Think. God is real and I'm not certain about it. But I'm confident enough in that to you know pursue that but also equally true if if God was as monstrous as some Christians portray him to be I would not want to follow that God but but you're right, You know you would have some sense of like well. This this God Holds the keys so you might as well appease them, you know I mean like otherwise you suffer. Um, unless you really just Decide. You know I'm gonna make a point and be defiant to the end and spend my eternity burning so that I can give the middle finger to a you know nasty version of a god.

20:36.10
forestandtrees
Um.

20:49.16
forestandtrees
Totally yeah I would I would have respect for someone who who was willing to to you know make a make a statement like that. But yeah I don't I don't think I could do it? yeah.

20:50.41
Jeremy
Which you know maybe and sure you you all good right? What watch me burn you know? Ah so the problem with this question or I think the challenge with this question is is a good question.

21:05.78
forestandtrees
Know.

21:07.98
Jeremy
Is it's a little bit and I've referred to this image a lot I think you you have to acknowledge this when you get to certain theological questions. It's a little bit like plugging an extension strip into itself. You know, like look this cable goes in here. Well yeah, it does. But that's a circular loop and there's no power to any of that. So like.

21:18.65
forestandtrees
Um.

21:27.98
Jeremy
You can take an extension cord plug it into itself and it'll look in one sense like everything's working the way it should. But anybody who understands how an extension you know Cord works go no, you have to plug that into the wall to get an external you know source of power because you can't just be internal. And so I think you're acknowledging a flaw in the way many Christians talk about God is you know God is fair and just why well because the bible says so well who wrote the bible. Well God Did you know it's like so God is all these things because God said God is all these things and.

21:54.66
forestandtrees
Yeah.

22:02.21
forestandtrees
Exactly.

22:05.30
Jeremy
And fun fact this you know this reminds me of is one of my favorite verses and not for its theological astuteness just from the humor aspect numbers chapter 12 this is old. We're gonna go old testament for a second here numbers 12 verse 3 says this.

22:20.80
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

22:23.91
Jeremy
Now moses was very humble, more humble than any other person on earth Jeff do you know who most christians would say wrote the book of numbers. Yeah.

22:29.10
forestandtrees
Right? right.

22:34.87
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, traditionally it's thought that moses wrote the first 5 books right? So he's writing that about himself. Yeah.

22:39.45
Jeremy
Right? Which is hysterical. Yes I've always learned so funny like now just hold on I mean let me take a moment to just tell you about the story like you gotta understand I'm very humble I'm more humble than any other but you know now again I said it very tongue in cheek because I don't think.

22:52.90
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, because it also I mean Spoiler alert later in the story Moses also writes about the death of Moses So that's that's another problem.

22:58.62
Jeremy
Moses wrote the book of numbers. So I have no problem.

23:07.30
Jeremy
That's that's a validor point. So there's some something else going on somewhere right at a minimum. Um, yeah, he he had a little. He had a little assist somewhere but ah, that kind of reminds me of God saying God is awesome because.

23:09.21
forestandtrees
Yeah, he might have had some help towards the end there. Yeah, exactly exactly.

23:24.60
Jeremy
God so you know now. So here's my answer is god you know good and just I believe that god is those things because that's the god I've actually encountered so that's why I would say so I'm not gonna say because the bible tells me so I'm say no because that's the that's the version of god I've experienced now say. Say that differently I use my experience with god to help me understand what these concepts even mean right? So what does it mean to be just what does it mean to be loving. What is it like I actually get that from the sense that I've experienced in god that then helps me make sense of oh that's what that concept even means. Because I've experienced that through god which is still somewhat circular but it's less so because now rather than just saying I'm allow god to say this about god I'm gonna say god you have to almost prove that to me, you know, not quite that defiant. But you know I have to see some of this or experience some of this then I will. You know start to apply that and there's ah a german theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer who I think makes this argument really well and says it in a very succinct way here's what he says god is love that is to say not a human attitude a conviction or a deed but god himself. Is love only he who knows god knows what love is it is not the other way around. It is not that we first of all by nature know what? Love is and therefore know. Also what god is no one knows god unless god reveals himself to him and so no one knows what love is.

25:01.49
Jeremy
Except in the self-re of god love then is the revelation of god and the revelation of god is Jesus Christ so here you know Bonover seems to be making a similar argument that hey because we've seen Jesus we can now say that's what love looks like. We're measuring that on this person of Jesus and what Jesus actually did you know the example of the cross That's what love looks like we've seen it and when you measure it to that now you have some criteria to go off of and then measure love accordingly. So I would look at.

25:38.73
forestandtrees
Um.

25:40.14
Jeremy
That and say well that's yeah that that you know the cross to me is the ultimate definition of what what does it really mean to be loving and then I work you know backward from there which then invites us to go. Okay, well what have we actually seen god to be revealed as. So if we don't just go well what you know it's quote a verse because again, that's great if you already believe god is like that that's circular if you don't so what? what have we seen god to be revealed as and you know I hit it almost every single week on this podcast and Bonhoeffer just mentioned it. But I think a Jesus looking god.

26:04.18
forestandtrees
Um.

26:15.44
Jeremy
Is the most profoundly beautiful thing. The world has ever seen period end of sentence so to me the reason why I would attribute all these qualities to god because I have not seen anything else that can even remotely rival. The profound beauty of god looking like Jesus on the cross that portrayal of god to me is the most compelling beautiful draw me in like I want to. Want to follow a god like that I want to surrender my life to a god like that and I want to become like a god like that I want to emulate and allow that god you know to shape me who I am and and you know all of that is because who I've seen not just who god claims to be. Now another quote here that I think is helpful. Okay, so god could have done this a lot of different ways. But you know we have we have the gospels and we have you know the text and a lot of mystery there as we talked about week and week out of god doesn't just say here are the 10 things or whatever. But ah, there's.

27:16.98
forestandtrees
Um.

27:29.28
Jeremy
Couple guys Hugh Halter and Matt may said this in their book have you ever stopped to ponder this is interesting thought how Jesus lived his first thirty years without drawing any attention to his divine nature I don't know about you. But if I knew I was going to change the course of history I'm sure it would have slipped out on occasion I doubt I could have just lived a normal life. But Jesus did he lived among people for 3 decades developing the relational respect and trust of people in his community Jesus lived out. He left heaven lived among us he listened and loved unconditionally with no strings attached which I also say because of who we know Jesus to be or how history has revealed them how it has been passed on you know from generation to generation again. That's a. Compelling version of god to me that Jesus for 30 years lays low and he's god incarnate and then suddenly it's like all right now's the time let's kick this into gear I get I need to make a compelling point if that were me i. I think I would do some cool things and you know who knows maybe Jesus on the playground had a few tricks up his sleeve like just kind of showing some of the kids of like look I can do stuff you can't do I don't know. Maybe.

28:52.27
forestandtrees
Yeah, well I mean that's that seems like kind of a big statement to me with very little evidence to just say just because we have the gospels the gospels don't really say anything before he turned 30 that oh he must have done nothing scandalous before he turned 30 You know what? I mean.

29:08.61
Jeremy
Sure it's an argument out of omission right? but I would say correct.

29:11.20
forestandtrees
He' see yeah argument from silence exactly other than the the start of him at the temple. Um, there end there's of course there's the infancy Gospel of Thomas where he like I think he like strikes his friends dead and then resurrects them and stuff like that and I mean yeah.

29:24.93
Jeremy
Yeah, these like just put a bird or something in Thomas I think.

29:31.00
forestandtrees
Yeah I think he turns ah like a piece of clay into a bird. Maybe I I might be getting that backwards. But anyway yeah, and of course there's all kinds of you know, erotic fan fiction about the early life of Jesus and stuff so we're all, we're all kind of free to speculate. What.

29:32.80
Jeremy
Yeah.

29:43.90
Jeremy
Sure. But and I and I don't disagree. It is an argument out of silence I agree. However, we don't have a lot of that you would think there would be maybe some more examples if this was something Jesus did all the time and again.

30:00.38
forestandtrees
Yeah I've I've always thought of it as like just for whatever reason just his his power didn't come to him almost though I guess the story of him at the temple shows that when he was 12 he had like special wisdom or something because I always think ah I I feel like I've always was taught that the wedding at Cana was like.

30:02.50
Jeremy
Maybe not.

30:18.39
forestandtrees
His his first miracle and he says to his mother. My time is not yet come so that's like the start of like he didn't have like messiah powers before then or something like that or he maybe he wasn't fully aware of his mission I don't know I'm I'm I'm sure this is a whole other podcast and I know everyone. Ah, speculated about that.

30:35.77
Jeremy
So I see that a little differently I would say he you know the wedding and can of John to he knows he's got the power to do that. What I think he's saying when he says to his mom. My time has not yet come of if I do this the countdown to the cross begins.

30:46.65
forestandtrees
Um.

30:53.00
forestandtrees
Oh interesting. Yeah.

30:54.90
Jeremy
I think is what he's is like my time has not yet come because the moment I do what you're asking me to do this all. It's all gets kicked in the motion and it does literally that night it gets kicked in emotion and that's an intriguing angle to understand like he literally let his mom persuade him into starting the clock. Yeah.

31:09.81
forestandtrees
Talk him into it.

31:13.68
Jeremy
Which is kind of a fascinating concept to think about as this is god right? and she doesn't know this but this is gonna you know 3 years down the road and lead to him on the cross.

31:19.58
forestandtrees
Yeah, that seems like that's a crazy tradeoff then huge if true so you're saying that he's he's willing to initiate the steps to his own execution just to keep a party going.

31:35.22
Jeremy
Well one way to look at it.

31:37.36
forestandtrees
Seems like high state you know like would you would you agree to be murdered 3 years from now if we ran out of beers at the party you know I'm saying.

31:47.37
Jeremy
So correct to clarify I think Jesus already knew that was coming so Jesus knows correct. He knows he's again. This is my take I think Jesus knew why I'm here what I'm here for what I'm gonna do.

31:52.93
forestandtrees
He couldn't have just laid low like indefinitely. Okay.

32:05.60
Jeremy
Um, but I think he's also you know there was a timing element to that and you know even like especially with the gospel of Mark there's this idea of the messianic secret you know Jesus will do something and say don't tell anybody and a lot of people read that they're like what's he doing. It's like well he's trying to essentially give himself more time because he knows like once more but more people hear about this.

32:15.90
forestandtrees
Um.

32:24.31
Jeremy
The the inevitable end of where this is going is going to happen and so he's it looks like he's kind of navigating the timeline there and so I don't think Jesus saying hey I could skip this party trick and avoid the crucifixion. He knows this is where this is headed. But I think he's he's just thinking like I don't know if I want to start it tonight at this party.

32:36.80
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

32:43.27
Jeremy
And then she you know persuades him and again remarkably he's like okay, let's do it and what's fascinating is it's not you know, a lot of people I Love obviously for a number of reasons you know we run a company called Commun Wineco So I I gather people together around wine a lot. But.

32:48.77
forestandtrees
Um.

33:00.82
Jeremy
I love this story because it makes so many christians uncomfortable and when you get into the details of this but really I yeah think you know Jesus is is realizing like no I'm gonna I'm gonna start the clock here and if you look at the end of the story. It doesn't say and they all you know. Drink the best wine of their lives and thought Jesus was great to invite to a party that wasn't the conclusion. It says you know John Litter says and Jesus revealed his glory like literally the glory of god was revealed that night in in that way in the first time you know first of like his tangible acts. You know of.

33:22.45
forestandtrees
Um.

33:37.29
Jeremy
You know, being this kind of wandering Rabbi that was messing everybody up and so I think it's it's really fascinating and again regardless like for 30 years he apparently wasn't turning water to wine that anybody that led anybody to really talk about anything like that because once he started. All bets were off. There's a whole bunch of things written about him. So I I would say I think it's at least somewhat of an intriguing argument. But.

33:56.87
forestandtrees
Yeah, did did he let any other parties flop in his throughout his twenty s well not yet, not yet. Yeah.

34:06.73
Jeremy
Oh that's a good. Yeah, he's 25 he's like not now mom I need to wait about five more years before I do this. But yeah, that's a fascinating like even the thought of how did Jesus discover what he was capable of like you know.

34:15.75
forestandtrees
Yeah.

34:22.60
forestandtrees
Because there's just kind of the one verse of like he grew in strength and stature and knowledge or something like that right? That's kind of you know it's right? Yeah, yeah, it doesn't.

34:25.43
Jeremy
Ah, saying.

34:33.18
Jeremy
Grew in wisdom and in favor with god which are both interesting like how does Jesus or as god grow in wisdom which is interesting and then how does he grow in favor with god with you know, it's just the both of those I've our works which interesting. Um.

34:42.88
forestandtrees
Yeah, did God Love him. Yeah, less before that's that seems weird. Okay, yeah, we're we're really far off the topic but this is a good conversation. Yeah yeah.

34:51.11
Jeremy
And none of this this is where it goes sometimes all right am my last part of the answer to your original question I would say one of the most underrated arguments for the goodness of god is that god stoops down to meet people where they are at. And allows them to attribute their sin onto god and we'll say that 1 more time one of the most underrated arguments for the goodness of god is that god stoops down to meet people where they're at and allows them to attribute their sin onto god this happens throughout. All the old testament it fully happens on the cross where god takes all of it right? and I think it still happens today I had a friend who listens to our podcast and was a little bit exasperated I think after the last episode and was like well if I take that you know your argument about you know. Everything pointing to Jesus then why would I even read the old testament. You know what What's the purpose if we're just gonna keep doing this and I understand that I think it's an overreaction and this is why because the old testament teaches us this is how god interacts with us god always stoops down meets us where we are.

35:51.44
forestandtrees
Yeah.

36:06.84
Jeremy
Which implies limitations onto god because god doesn't have those limitations we do and god allows that which means if god allowed you know the israelites to to view him in some awful ways in the old testament that some of the junk that we have today that we attribute to god I would. Equally say that's god stooping down and saying hey you can think this of me I'll take your sin and your broken images because I I want to be in relationship with you all the while trying to pull us you know, closer and closer to what god actually looks like and so that's why we read the the old testament. We don't give it the final say. But it helps reinforce for us the kind of god we're we're working with here that then shows us how god's gonna interact with us today and to me that's an incredible character trait for any portrayal of god to have and. I look at that and go that's remarkable and again, that's a god that I'm drawn to.

37:04.45
forestandtrees
Yeah, like like would you say it's almost like he's he's allowing us to see him as the bad guy right? like he's he's letting his reputation be tarnished for the sake of because he's playing the long game.

37:11.98
Jeremy
Totally right? And if I were God I Don't think I were it I'd be like no I'm not like that you're wrong, Get someone else like get get someone better to you know, write this about me and God doesn't like God just meets people. And takes on their baggage takes on their sins like all right I Want to be relationship with you. So here's what's gonna think about me and again this is what happens on the cross. This is who just reveals like hey I'll take your sin I'll take all your issues I'll put it on myself and I will reconcile this debt.

37:37.50
forestandtrees
Um.

37:45.59
Jeremy
That you know you have with evil and any claim that Satan has I'll take it all and that way you you know you don't have to to deal with this and so to me that is just so so beautiful. Especially when you think about an all powerful God could do it any way you know God wants and that's the way God chooses. To interact with people.

38:05.82
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I mean I know I know I've complained about this before it just seems weird like the the length discrepancy right? Like if you want to say the old testament is the flawed version of god and the gospels are are the good stuff are the real version of god like why is old testament so much longer than. Ah, tiny section where where we learn by Jesus. Yeah oh wow well that's a very straightforward answer. Well I appreciate that? ah.

38:23.73
Jeremy
That takes place over a much longer span of time.

38:31.85
Jeremy
I mean truthfully you have you know, depending on when you date all the new testament books give or take 100 years you know depending if you attribute all of them to the original authors or if you think the others that's they had some assists in addition to moses you know.

38:42.70
forestandtrees
Um.

38:48.76
forestandtrees
Sir sir.

38:51.50
Jeremy
Ah, all of those are written in a very short amount of time compared to how long the old testament was written.

38:59.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, no, it's good. Um, okay yeah I think we can move on the you know? well we'll table that the I know I know a but I feel like you know? Okay, so who can know the heart of God right is.

39:03.88
Jeremy
That question went all kinds of directions I did not anticipate.

39:14.49
forestandtrees
Is god good or bad. That's that's a tough question. So let's maybe we can figure out if people are good or bad because that's a little bit more tangible. Yeah so I I think Paul seems to have his opinions. So I just I've got a smattering of of verses from chapter three here. Ah verse 9 all people under the power of sin.

39:18.30
Jeremy
Oh yeah, that'll be way easier.

39:34.42
forestandtrees
And 10 he says as a scripture say no one is righteous. Not even one nineteen the entire world is guilty before god 23 the first step on the romans road. Everyone has sinned. We all fall short fall short of god's glorious standard so this is a little bit. What I was talking about earlier with the with the grumpy uncle paul idea of to me. It seems like this this is kind of paul's perspective on humanity I have a little bit of a pet theory that maybe paul's low view of humanity comes from a place of self-loathing like maybe he felt guilty for. All of the murder and persecution that he had done earlier in life and was kind of projecting that onto his subjects interested to hear what what you think about that? Um, but anyway I feel like this this idea that we are broken. We are sinful. It is so essential to. The idea of the gospel message right? Um, you know so some people ascribe original sin like we're we're born guilty already because of adam and eve which I know you've you've spoken against original sin before so I'm curious. What what? you think about that.

40:49.00
forestandtrees
I will say it. It. It has a little bit of a sense of salesmanship um to me as well like the idea of like if you're going to sell someone a vacuum First you need to convince them that their carpets are really dirty. Um, it's like when when I think about the romans road I sort of think about it as like a sales pitch like. Step 1 you are sinful step 2 you are in need of a savior step 3 pray this prayer that kind of thing. Okay, anyway, so a lot there but my question you know, very simple Jeremy simple question are people basically good or basically evil.

41:13.50
Jeremy
Um.

41:21.23
Jeremy
Well just to acknowledge I think you know the romans road has absolutely become a marketing technique you know and the the reason you feel that is because that's how it's been used and you're absolutely right? Let me you know? what's the first step of selling someone something is you gotta convince them. They have a need.

41:28.48
forestandtrees
Yeah.

41:39.60
forestandtrees
Exactly yeah.

41:41.90
Jeremy
Your product and fill and this is this is I think you make a great point. This is how we often convert someone or attempt to right? I'm gonna show you the need and show you I've got this solution for you. You know and it is gimmicky and it's gros and I think when you reduce God to a formula like this.

41:49.40
forestandtrees
Um.

41:52.66
forestandtrees
Mother.

42:00.70
Jeremy
It's going to have negative consequences. So let's just unpack that if original Sin is a thing and that's the idea that you know we're all born sinful because of the fall or however, you want to you know because of adamd and Eve or we inherited their sin or however, you want to if original Sin is a thing.

42:13.28
forestandtrees
M.

42:17.52
Jeremy
Then god sucks at making people like if all the people after Adam are born with sin and are born flawed god as a creator needs to up his game like you're not good at making people maybe try your hand to something else.

42:18.65
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

42:37.40
Jeremy
I Say that tongue in cheek because I don't believe that God is like that I just hear this argued all the time and I literally I wanted to say to people. Do you not realize what you are communicating about your view of God and you you think God is really not a good communicator or good designer creator Now where am I getting you know my argument for this. Go back to the creation story. Okay, how did God make people Well okay, according to the text genesis one 26 then God said let us make human beings in our image to be like us. Oh okay, well so are we are we broken like God is broken. Are we. Born with Sin like God is born with like you know what? I mean that you start going? What does it mean then if we're made like God Verse Twenty seven So God created human beings in his own image in the image of God he created them male and female. He created them. We were made like God to be image Bearers of god.

43:17.94
forestandtrees
Like.

43:33.41
Jeremy
So this idea of original sin to me is just logically ludicrous. How am I made like god in god's image to bear god's image in my life in my body in my existence. Oh but also I was born with massive amounts of brokenness and sin like well which is it pick one. Either I'm made in god's image or I'm made with a whole bunch of of junk and sin. But I don't see how it can be both and I would even say if we are inherently evil we could also not be like god and be image bearers of a good looking god so if we are all and like our default setting which is where most christians want to go with this. Our default setting is evil and you know Roman Stre 23 you know it's like it says all the time. Well, you're gonna have to pick either. You're gonna take Paul literally and you're gonna supersede Paul over everything else we see which is what people tend to do with this verse or we say no, we think that.

44:14.32
forestandtrees
Um.

44:29.00
Jeremy
Actually like we're made in god's image and that's what the tech says and we're made good and you know well so you go okay, well we're made good. How did how did we end up here. How do we have sin. How do we have this problem and I'm glad you rhetorically asked that Jeff because we just seem to add a little nuance here.

44:43.87
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

44:48.20
Jeremy
And Paul's going to give it to us in this chapter and yet I think most people miss it? Okay, so here's here's my argument what if we actually believe that we are made in the image of god the way that genesis tells us but we live in a sinful world. That pressures us to sin. So both are true. We are made good in the image of god like god but we also exist in this world with a pressure of evil and a force of evil that acts upon us or do I get that romans chapter 3 verse 9 we have already shown that all people Paul says whether jews or gentiles are under the power of sin that is what it means to live in this fallen world post the fall. So once humans have sin now Satan has a claim now Satan has you know. All these forces at work and so yeah, we live in that but we start off made in the image of god and then satan tries to hijack that and get us over you know to have a claim over us and this is this whole thing. Why the cross and why Jesus said no I'm go to raise this debt forever. So that satan no longer has this claim. It's this whole thing. And 1 of the analogies and this this falls short as all analogies do but might be helpful for someone is the thing about sin like a car crash. Now you could say okay are are any cars going to crash today probably like it's probably pretty likely and I can say that.

46:22.21
forestandtrees
Um.

46:23.85
Jeremy
I'm not omniscient I don't know the future I'm not god I don't have god's powers but I could I could say with you know, a strong amount of certainty. Yeah I think there will be a car crash today. Does it mean that you and your car are gonna crash today. No. In fact, that would probably be unlikely. Ah, you could. It's definitely a possibility but someone's going to cry. You know it's like you can just say like so is is the world correct. So I think god can can foresee statistically It's pretty likely that this is going to go this direction. Does it mean we were born.

46:48.30
forestandtrees
Um, it's statistically inevitable.

47:01.66
Jeremy
Already wired for sin I don't think it does and again if it does then something is off with us being made in the image of god and so I think there's a nuance here that most christians miss and again, you don't need to you don't need to beat me over the head with romans 26 I'll just come right back at you with Romans three 9 and say Paul is saying we live under the power of sin so we can be born. Good. We can be born in the image of god and live under the power of sin and both of those exist together.

47:34.46
forestandtrees
Okay, great. So so your answer is we're born good sorry okay, all right's beautiful. Yeah are I did a a poll on our Instagram which is um, an agreement. Yeah, let's let's see here. It was.

47:35.90
Jeremy
Yeah, because I believe I believe Genesis we are really made in the image of God yeah.

47:45.15
Jeremy
Yeah, what were the results of that.

47:51.71
forestandtrees
It was good news. Yeah, we're at 67% basically good 33% basically evil so 2 2 thirds of our fall social media followers are agreement with you there. Ah what? what was i.

47:55.30
Jeremy
Oh all, right? guys way to go makes me still proud.

48:07.45
forestandtrees
This is just kind of a personal pet peeve of mine because I I feel like I've seen so many different pastors you know to to criticize the drunk people again I've seen so many pastors say like I can prove. We're basically bad have you ever seen a baby have you ever seen a two year old. They don't need to be taught to be selfish. You know I'm talking about yeah does that does that bother.

48:22.25
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

48:26.62
forestandtrees
You as well or do you feel like that's a good illustration because pastors love using that and everybody loves it. It gets a laugh every single time. Okay.

48:35.25
Jeremy
Yeah, it bothers me? Um, but here's what I would say a 2 year old is living in the same world under the same power of sin that an adult is so I would say great you you made a cute little joke at a baby's expense now.

48:45.64
forestandtrees
Um.

48:52.74
Jeremy
Do you think that baby's living in a different world than you're living in.

48:54.21
forestandtrees
No no that Well they're not saying the baby's different. They're saying the baby's the same as us and they're saying the baby is like a a microcosm for all of humanity. Yeah, so there.

48:59.43
Jeremy
Correct but they were but to use romans 12 is the baby under the same power of sin as you are as an adult we tend to think well no, they're a baby and look at they're they're choosing to sin as a little baby like that's the point like.

49:13.32
forestandtrees
Um.

49:17.51
Jeremy
They're the exception and look that you know they they still do the same thing we do? Well Yeah, they're the same like they're under the same power of sin into this world but that baby was made in the image of God to be an image bearer of a good God So if that is true.

49:27.72
forestandtrees
Okay.

49:35.30
Jeremy
That baby also can't be born prewired for Satan or just essentially the same argument like yeah, see you don't have to teach you know you know kids don't share on their own. It's like I also have seen kids do some remarkably beautiful things that I also can't explain like.

49:38.59
forestandtrees
A. Yeah.

49:51.45
forestandtrees
Totally.

49:53.61
Jeremy
Wow that was an incredibly you know my kids have done things to me that I'd like have made me tear up of like like and again I think it's interesting jesus talks about a childlike faith. It's like Jesus almost disproves this argument and how often he would bring kids to him and say unless you have faith like this kid.

50:13.40
forestandtrees
Um.

50:13.42
Jeremy
Jesus don't you know that that kid who was born. You know with you? yes and too. It's like like it just misses the point of like Jesus is going? No no these kids understand what you have failed to understand and I just think I I think we've got a quick laugh at that joke I think it logically and theologically falls apart quickly.

50:16.17
forestandtrees
Yeah.

50:29.82
forestandtrees
Yeah I agree the the implications are so dark to you from this Paul Ion perspective it was like because because the baby wants their bottle that means they deserve to go to hell if they died from sudden and from death syndrome before they could pray the prayer I know you don't agree with that with that theology.

50:33.49
Jeremy
Oh dark.

50:46.46
Jeremy
There I have met christians though that that they would say yeah you know pray over your kids so that nothing happens to him before they accept Jesus and I'm like you have such a sad view of god to me and again those ideas have consequences because that shapes the way you.

50:49.20
forestandtrees
But.

50:59.90
forestandtrees
Yeah.

51:06.24
Jeremy
Treat those kids and talk to those kids and man growing up with that mentality is going to do a number on you.

51:13.71
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, ah, all right? Well speaking of growing up with that mentality. Perfect seway Jeremy so all of this stuff about this this low view of humanity. What it got me thinking a lot about ideas of. Religious trauma people who are are raised in. You know a certain certain branch certain persuasion of christianity who are are taught that they're worthless that they they can do no good apart from Christ if they deserve to go to hell by by default and it's It's caused all kinds of psychological damage for people. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that because I again I feel like this is a ah sales pitch that people use of like first you need to convince people. They're bad and that first convince them that they're dirty and then sell them the way that they can clean up. So. What do you think that it's worth all of this psychological damage that we've done to young people as a church all right? nice.

52:13.63
Jeremy
Hell no I think this is one of the most harmful things in christianity today and one of the saddest realities is this is preached so often in the local church setting and I hear it so often.

52:25.18
forestandtrees
M.

52:31.39
Jeremy
And we wonder why we have self-esteem issues. We Wonder why? you know in the church that people are you know, breaking apart Marriages Break Apart. It's like you're telling people week after week. How awful they are and thinking that's not going to have some type of. Consequence you know and again essentially what we tell people is you are garbage but God can make you worth something and that good news. It's like no, you told me I was garbage like no and if I if week after week I'm told I'm garbage but God makes me good. You're.

52:56.91
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

53:07.55
Jeremy
Garbage But God makes you good. You're garbage but God makes you good I mean at what point do you start to believe I'm garbage like that's that's really what I am and the moment I have a faith question or a faith issue or a faith dilemma Now I'm just you know I don't know if God loves me anymore because I really am Garbage. I Mean like this is what happened and I I sit with these stories I sit with you know people who say this and they go Yeah this messed me up and it just breaks my heart because we don't have to communicate God like this and in fact I think it's an abuse of what we find in the scriptures I understand where people get it. I Just think gosh it's not.. It's not not honoring to God and it's not honoring to the image bearers that God has made and there's even a phrase for this I don't know where it first originated but it's been called Pan Scum Theology or some version therein and.

54:04.95
forestandtrees
Ah.

54:05.23
Jeremy
And again, this is so dominant in christianity that most christians who attend a church will go. Oh yeah I hear that all the time I just I didn't know it Rachel Held Evans talked about this once she said pond scum theology makes even less sense in the context of the gospels. To believe that people are inherently worthless to god strips the incarnation crucifixion and resurrection of all their meaning and power i. Love this line. It makes Jesus look like a fool for dying for us and then a great line.

54:41.58
forestandtrees
Yeah.

54:43.53
Jeremy
If we are the garbage that we keep getting told we are then Jesus you gave up your life for garbage like you made the bad deal to to trade everything you did for people like us. You should have found some better part of creation and makes Jesus. Look like a fool for dying for us and it leaves behind his followers with little incentive to seek out and celebrate the good in one another and that is exactly what we see and so much of christianity today. No, we're gonna focus on sin we're gonna focus on all the nasty parts. Why would I celebrate something good and in fact I have found that if you try to celebrate the goodness in people you usually get Roman Street 23 quoted at you like that's that's the sad irony of this chapter is like that verse I've gotten that quoted at me. So many times when I try to make any kind of argument or celebrate what I would say is the inherent goodness of god's image bearers acting accordant according to what we were designed to do no no no, don't you know romans 26 and I'll say 2 final things on this point. Here's why I don't think this has any merit number 1 jesus didn't treat people who were far from god as if they were pawn scum without him that is not how Jesus treat people in the Gospels. He didn't say to them hey look you're far from god you're a social outcast you're marginalized I'm not even going to give you the time of day.

56:16.26
Jeremy
Because you don't know who god is and you're not I mean he just didn't treat you like that. And in fact, the scandal of Jesus Ministry was he attracted all the wrong people and it was the religious leaders constantly saying how dare you bring these people in they don't belong because they were the ones drawn Jesus he did not treat them. Like pawn scum you know and then they just had to be cleaned up by Jesus. That's just not how Jesus treated people and secondly excuse me I'm getting choked up on this one I think that we've collectively accepted the scum theology you ready for this.

56:48.82
forestandtrees
You don't.

56:51.20
Jeremy
So we don't feel bad about God setting a bunch of people to hell because yeah, we're garbage so we deserve it it it all of a sudden makes total sense to have an eternal conscious torment view of God that God is going to.

56:55.33
forestandtrees
Yeah I I write.

57:09.51
Jeremy
Make people suffer for eternity and yeah I can I can make way more sense of that if we're all garbage to begin with.

57:16.17
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean I think it's the only way you can make sense of of that traditional view of hell right is like if if humanity is just bad by default because otherwise you know you could say okay I can see why Hitler deserves to go to hell. But why does an innocent child deserve to go to hell and it's. Yeah, it only makes sense if um, if you can say just humanity is is bad by default as far as I can tell. Yeah.

57:39.89
Jeremy
Correct right? Otherwise you have to say if you want if you want the traditional view of hell you had you have to say God is sending a whole bunch of image Bearers of God to hell for eternity which is like oof.

57:55.20
forestandtrees
Yeah, which I feel like they they would say again. It would be fun to get a more conservative ah Christian on the show at some point so they can I think I think so because you know it's I mean it's too easy for the 2 of us to just pounce on them. You know they.

58:03.21
Jeremy
Um, what it.

58:09.60
Jeremy
They pounce it pos on me the rest of the week Jeff speak for yourself. Yeah there in all my comments and mentions I hear from them regularly.

58:10.60
forestandtrees
Obviously they.

58:14.77
forestandtrees
Ah, okay, okay, ah well.

58:24.17
forestandtrees
Okay, that's that's a good point. Um, all right? So just.

58:25.53
Jeremy
This is my oasis. This is my this my moment just to so talk about the goodness of Jesus won take this from me I need this? um.

58:31.55
forestandtrees
This is yeah this is our our own little chill our own little chill corn all right, strike it from the record. never never mind you're uninvited Theo Rose all right? So just 1 more question to go back to what I was saying about like I'm I'm trying to. Interrogate the scriptures here because again like it's so easy to just like call out conservative christians who who are harsh but you could say well they have a flawed view of scripture or something I I don't know it and of course it's impossible for me to like separate my reading of romans. 23 from the way it was always taught to me growing up and all that stuff. But I don't know I still I still feel like just a straight view a straight reading of romans out of context. It'd be interesting to hear from someone who just read it who hadn't wasn't exposed to christian culture before I feel like Paul himself has this. Low view of humanity like I was talking about before. Do you disagree with that. Do you think Paul is more chill than I'm giving him credit for.

59:33.29
Jeremy
I don't I don't disagree I actually think you're onto something there and you see this with some of the early church fathers I think it was Augustine if I recall who had like a ton of sexual sin in his life and that was like a real issue for him and so he felt disgusted with his own sexual drive.

59:46.56
forestandtrees
M.

59:52.92
Jeremy
Essentially and so a lot of what he came up with a lot of you know his theology and his way of understanding god was almost an overreaction to his own disgust in his life of like why do I have this and why can I not move past it and I think you see some of that in Paul like yeah Paul. I think Paul had to work through quite a bit I mean to go from you're killing christians one day to you're the world's best evangelist the next like yeah, awesome! Great story. But you know I think there's some psychological damage there that Paul probably. Could have used the therapist to talk through of like wow. Okay so I'm dealing with some feelings of guilt or shame or you know remorse or regret or you know whatever like any human would that doesn't negate how god used him and that god transformed him but it doesn't mean he ceased to be the person he was overnight like there's some remnant of that and you know. Was his story and so I absolutely think you're right on which is why to go back to the very first episode the setup to this book of romans this is why we cannot elevate Paul and make him appear to to Jesus like Paul's got to be underneath.

01:00:56.66
forestandtrees
Um.

01:01:04.83
Jeremy
Jesus and and all this has to be pointed through the personal Jesus or else you allow you know Paul's humanity to I think have more weight than it should. We should view this as god using Paul and Paul's story and Paul's baggage because again, this is what Jesus does stoops down to meet us where we are and. Jesus even did it with Paul.

01:01:26.12
forestandtrees
Yeah that's well said wow that's that's making me think about just the topic of like the question of what is the Gospel. You know like I would say when I was younger I would say like the Gospel basically is the romans road like you could explain all the tenets just in romans. And then I don't know as when I became a more progressive Christian I thought of it like no the gospel is just the story of Jesus life. So it's just the story of Jesus walk around jerusalem and healing people and teaching and then eventually being crucified and resurrecting and then Paul is just like commentary after the fact.

01:02:02.58
Jeremy
M.

01:02:05.50
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah I don't that that is that good theology. What do you think about that.

01:02:10.75
Jeremy
I'm I think in a nutshell I would say I would say the gospel is the good news of the person of Jesus and so what's what's good about it. Well let me introduce you to Jesus and I think you'll start to see why it's good news. You know I mean good because I'll start number 1 explaining.

01:02:13.90
forestandtrees
Oh.

01:02:26.86
Jeremy
What the gospels reveal him to be but then also inviting you to experience Jesus today and you know that all that is good news to me and again going back to I really think a Jesus looking god is profoundly beautiful and profoundly good and so that is good news especially when you live in a world that wants to believe all these other things. And then you know you have this view of Jesus Emerge it's like holy cow I want that.

01:02:53.57
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah I mean I I Certainly like it you know like like I said earlier in the episode like your your view of God is much more palatable and more appealing to me than I don't know then. Views of God that I've been taught in other places. So yeah, it's cool. That's that's a hopeful note to end on I think.

01:03:13.14
Jeremy
Well thank you, it's only taking me about 40 years to to get to this place so there you go.

01:03:21.25
forestandtrees
Yeah, do you think that That's ah, a natural thing like it's natural to start with a more I don't know um like a more conservative more hell fire and brimstone view or is that just just a product of the the evangelical culture we were.

01:03:38.46
Jeremy
I Think it's more a product of the culture I Think what's interesting is you know I've known and this is where I go back to just experience rather than you know some theoretical verse or or theoretical argument I've known people who you know were raised conservative and then became progressive.

01:03:38.90
forestandtrees
Raised with.

01:03:53.10
forestandtrees
Um.

01:03:57.61
Jeremy
I've known people who were raised progressive and then became conservative I've known people that were raised conservative and stayed conservative I know people that were raised progressive and say progressive. You know like I've seen it all like I've I've met people in their stories all over the place. So I Don't think there's any necessarily like this is the trajectory most people go On. I Think there is definitely dominant views in a culture. So if you were raised in that culture. These were the dominant views you were given So I think there's definitely that and I would say there's a lot of people and this is the whole deconstructing conversation. There's a lot of people who grew up with a lot of the stuff that you and I grew up with that are now going.

01:04:24.92
forestandtrees
Um.

01:04:29.97
forestandtrees
Um, right.

01:04:35.80
Jeremy
That is not helpful and this is hurt and I gotta I gotta figure something else out other than that and so I do think because we were all raised in it. It was such a prevalent you know theology such a prevalent you know, understanding of god but I think what's cool is I would say. And I'm hopeful of this is that I believe one of the things 1020 years from now that collectively will not have the hold that it currently does is the traditional view of hell I think more and more people are going to go. Yeah, that is that's a medieval concept that that.

01:05:07.56
forestandtrees
Um.

01:05:14.86
Jeremy
The church under constantine came up with to coerce people to do what they wanted like that is not actually what you know makes sense with Jesus and I would love to see that happen. But I think there is some element of you are you're raised in something and I think any you know I tell my kids this all the time like. You can ask me what I think that right answers are to this stuff and I'll tell you but as you get older, you're gonna have to wrestle with if that still makes sense to you and I tell them that now you know they're like dad. It'll always make sense and I'm like okay you can say that now but it may not do you and you know and said you're you're gonna have to decide what you believe and I said you know we as a family.

01:05:43.68
forestandtrees
Um.

01:05:54.70
Jeremy
Follow Jesus. But when you become an adult if that's not something you choose to do like that's your choice you know and I'm not gonna make you or try to make you. You're gonna have to wrestle with whether jesus still makes sense to you and so I think that everybody goes through that and I think the hope would be. That you don't have the same faith you had when you were a child. You know we talk about like Noah's ark and stuff like well Noah's ark when you're a kid is ah is a fun little story. There should come a point you read Noah's ark and go that's horrific right? Like there's ah, there's an element of you grew up a little bit and.

01:06:21.52
forestandtrees
Um.

01:06:24.25
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

01:06:29.53
Jeremy
I think all of us should have that the sad reality is there's a lot of christians who think who still think Noah's arks a beautiful fairy tale and like oh that's so cool that god made the rainbow but what? what like I think you need to reread it as an adult and try harder.

01:06:39.99
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, or or think that um that like even though it seems it seems bad to our human minds that you're not allowed to question God like I was talking about earlier So Like. It must be good because God did it and everything God does is good. Do you know what? I'm saying. Yeah.

01:07:03.37
Jeremy
I Think yeah, a lot of people believe that again. That's why I think that lacks a whole bunch of nuance because then all the horrific things we find in the old testament then somehow we have to explain it as that's God's goodness. Yeah.

01:07:15.47
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:07:18.51
Jeremy
Genocide was God's goodness in the old testament. It's like wait. What? okay.

01:07:21.33
forestandtrees
With that that is something that that I really appreciate about you Jeremy By the way is the fact that like I come to you with all these questions and I don't think once you've played the my ways are higher than your ways card on me. Which I think you know is is kind of ah a standard way to answer any any tough questions about the character of God or christianity or anything so you know I appreciate that this this podcast is a safe space for us in questions or at least I hope so.

01:07:49.36
Jeremy
Well I don't disagree with the logic of that text? Yes God's God's thinking is far above mine. However I think to your point the way that gets used is a cop out. You know when it's like I'm backed into a corner that logically makes no sense and that's why I think if what I believe is true.

01:07:56.25
forestandtrees
Um.

01:08:07.53
Jeremy
Let's wrestle it out and logically try to see if we can still make sense of this and I think you can I Just think it takes some work and willingness to sit with some doubt and you know what I've learned is there are people that really love certainty and are not interested in out and and don't like the way that feels and so they don't spend time there.

01:08:23.58
forestandtrees
Um.

01:08:26.84
Jeremy
And think it's healthy. You know work this stuff through this is why we have a podcast like this because you're gonna hear a whole bunch of ideas and some of it. Maybe you go I've never thought about that before and you know I love hearing from you each week Jeff like oh that's a great question. Yeah I could totally see why you you know and I don't know I just think this is. Hopefully this is modeling I think where all of us should be living where you're constantly working this stuff through and not like oh I figured this out when I was 12 and now I'm gonna ride that into the sunset like good luck with that.

01:08:59.36
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah I like that I like that idea of always always questioning things always wrestling always kind of reexamining what we believe and why that's cool.

01:09:06.55
Jeremy
Yeah.

01:09:10.58
forestandtrees
All right? Well yeah, that seems like a great place to end it. Ah appreciate you answering my questions as always Jeremy thanks for not playing that card. Ah, you know I think if you ever play that card I mean the podcast is over so so just unless unless we get.

01:09:22.67
Jeremy
Wow, you're still so hostile we have it on record I was just threatened who Isaiah would be a fun book. Lots of ah god as mother in Isaiah that would be.

01:09:29.59
forestandtrees
Unless we get to isaiah then you know then we can talk about it because ah.

01:09:36.89
forestandtrees
Oh really? yeah, totally all right? Well, that's the end of the episode all right talk to you guys later goodbye.

01:09:39.82
Jeremy
And would really get the Theo Bros going.