Romans 2 - Just the Tip

We’re settling into a groove here. Hopefully some lighter fare compared to last week. 

Topics
Is God Patient?
Does God Play Favorites?
Do we have a moral Conscience? 
What’s the Deal with Circumcision? 

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Transcript

00:00.00
Jeremy
Hey everybody we're back on a happier chapter than we that we previously left off I'm Jeremy as always joined by my friend. Jeff.

00:12.90
forestandtrees
Jeremy I think this is actually going to be a shorter episode.

00:19.18
Jeremy
This? Um, but I'm waiting for something else to come here. Jeff.

00:20.24
forestandtrees
I Think when I'm editing this episode I'm going to trim a little bit off the end. You know what I'm saying.

00:25.43
Jeremy
There it is there. It is ladies and gentlemen that joke will make sense in just a moment. We're back for us in the trees. We we have made it past our intro past the infamous chapter 1 and now we've made it to chapter 2 and we're gonna have some fun today in chapter 2 I think it's a little bit of a lighter chapter wouldn't you say Jeff.

00:50.51
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, yeah, totally I think I think Paul has settled in. He's got a nice chill groove going smooth sailing until we get to the trifecta here. So everybody relax.

00:58.59
Jeremy
He's got his groove. Yeah, until we get later chapters after chapter 8 the wheels come off but before then we can just relax. We can have fun. We can. We can get into it so today we're gonna explore whether god is being patient. Or doing nothing the apparent contradiction of god's favoritism. The justice of god why god doesn't do more to communicate with us and as Jeff's opening joke we are revisiting Jeff's growing obsession. Ah, circumcision.

01:36.82
forestandtrees
It's It's a huge topic as it turns out.

01:39.71
Jeremy
No pun intended all right? Ah, ah.

01:41.10
forestandtrees
What size size doesn't matter Jeremy come on.

01:46.65
Jeremy
Ah, okay, let's let's redirect this for this gets way out of control I'm gonna set the tone here because in romans what if you listened to our last episode. Hopefully you did if not good time to pause the podcast maybe go revisit it. So so you're up to date. Romans 1 paul lists a whole bunch of sins. There's 1 in particular that everybody loves talking about, but it's there's quite a few sins in there and I just want to make this point in case, you thought that the sinners in chapter one were the focus in chapter 2 paul is gonna pivot and aim it at religious people and call out their hypocrisy which I think is great because I think the religious people they love chapter 1 let's focus on all the sinners all the junk they got but then quickly you know, let's just move past chapter two where Paul's like yeah yeah. But let's also talk about you religious people and your hypocrisy and verse 24 in this chapter is is a bit of a doozy Paul says no wonder the scriptures say that gentiles blaspheming the name of god because of you basically Paul is blaming the. Hypocrisy of some believers for causing others to disbelieve and they now are blaspheming god and I just want to say good thing that stopped in the first century church.

03:12.66
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, how the turn tables have ah turned.

03:18.17
Jeremy
I mean good thing. The hypocrisy is over Jeff because that hypocrisy can you know cause people to not believe in god so I'm glad we don't have to deal with any religious hypocrisy today.

03:26.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I agree we've we've put childish things behind us and now we're ready for the grownup stuff. No more hypocrisy.

03:33.84
Jeremy
Oh boy, no more hypocrisy. Sadly, we continue the issue that Paul is dealing with in chapter 2 we're still dealing with it and we're we're working our way through that so on a lighter note before we get to your questions I also want to point out Paul says. So 9 that a person with a changed heart seeks praise from god not from people but I do want to thank all of you who have left us a 5 star review or followed us on social media. Even though that may indicate my heart has not been fully changed yet. I do want to just show gratitude because whenever I see that Jeff it. It. It encourages me and it touches me and so I just felt like even though I may not be able to say that or maybe I shouldn't say that if I understand chapter or verse twenty nine I still just want to give a little gratitude out there to our tour listeners.

04:27.85
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more you know what I remember the in our hebrews season. 1 of my questions was like if god is all powerful. Why does he require worship. You know what sort of being requires worship. You know that seems you know I was a little bit judgmental and then of course I also thought of like. Please give us feedback please give us likes on social media. Please give us 5 star reviews who among us is immune to the desire for adoration right.

04:56.20
Jeremy
Well, evidently we still need our hearts to be changed because we're we're seeking more than just praise from god we we also are seeking it for people. So hopefully hopefully we could fix that but Jeff I'm ready. Let's get into some questions chapter 2 is lighter but we we still have got stuff. That you're taking issue with so let's get into it.

05:16.14
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot here so I want to start in verse 4 which says don't you see how wonderfully kind tolerant and patient god is with you does this mean nothing to you can't you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin. Right? So this idea of god being kind tolerant and patient I just want to ask is god patient. Are we sure with this verse and others like it remind me of these really churchy phrases that people will use like I'm waiting on the lord or. God's timing or god's not finished with me yet this kind of thing where people will just talk about like I'm praying about a thing in my life literally. Nothing is happening and instead of saying well. God must be doing nothing not answering my prayers. We'll say like oh he hasn't acted yet. This is his timing this is god being patient with you and sometimes it kind of feels like christians when they talk about god are kind of counting all of the hits and none of the misses or even worse. Maybe they're giving god credit for doing literally nothing. So. That's my question. How can you tell if god is being patient or just doing nothing.

06:30.81
Jeremy
I think this really depends on your view of god and I I would say probably more than some of the other topics. You know where you start when you say hey this is who I think god is or you know whether or not you you think god is real I guess but whatever view you have. I think will determine how you answer this and for christians as well. You know, whatever we are picturing. So I'll answer it based on the view of god I have because that's really all I can do but you obviously go oh that's because you view god in this way. So I would say according to romans too. 1 of the coolest things I think is that god uses kindness to turn us from sin which is the opposite of how we often present god like we often present god as you know hey god's gonna use fear and wrath to turn you from sin therefore I can use fear. And wrath to turn you from your sinks I'm just I'm just joining god I'm just doing what god is doing and I think that's to miss really? Ah I would say a profoundly beautiful idea that Paul's articulating here that it's the kindness of god and I would say maybe this is one of the more underrated. Underutilized verses ah in in all of the bible that that god is going to get us to do what you know? Ultimately god wants us to do through the kindness of god came across a great quote from someone named Heather Thompson day she's a professor and a podcaster.

08:04.22
Jeremy
And she said this way referring to this idea it is the goodness of God that will lead people to repentance. Not your judgment not wrath. Not your quote truth Hurts. It will be your displaying the goodness of who God is that will sink deepest. And I I Adamantly agree with what she's saying and you know I get accused of a lot of things these days as should come as no surprise to our regular audience. Yes, my my hipster theology. Thank you? Ah, but I believe that the.

08:33.39
forestandtrees
Being a hipster.

08:42.51
Jeremy
Best thing I could do if I want people to see what I've seen about god is to do what she's saying is that I would display the goodness of who god is and you know if I had a life mission that would probably something around it of I want to display for people the goodness of who I've experienced jesus to be. And I think the most compelling argument I could give to anybody is to show you the goodness that that I have seen and you know some people often say to me like oh you're skipping over the hard parts or the bad parts or the uncomfortable parts. Ah, it's like no I'm not skipping them they they just are swallowed up. In the goodness of god because I really believe god is that good so because I believe that view of god I would say if god does nothing which is really what your question is so let's say god's doing nothing then I would because of where I'm starting I would say god is doing nothing for our good because. God is good. So if we if we say hey god is doing nothing in this situation I'm asking for then I will conclude. Oh then that is for our good because god ultimately wants our good and if god were to do something. It wouldn't be necessarily. What would be best for us now a little spoiler alert. We're gonna get to this in chapter 8.

09:39.70
forestandtrees
Um.

09:58.88
Jeremy
But to connect a comment that Paul's gonna make later and in 36 Paul says this and we know that god causes everything to work together for the good of those who love god and are called according to his purpose for them. I would say this is really a theological answer now to you. You're saying oh how how is you know what is god doing is to be patient is he doing nothing well god is gonna work all things to the good of us and god's going to do that through a variety of ways now again that comes because of my view of god but I would even say. Patience is one of the things god is known for and is one of the things god is revealed to be but is part of the character of god as the new testament writers articulate that in fact, glatians five. It's the fourth fruit of the spirit is patience. So this is a hallmark of who god is in the goodness of god and. I would even go so far as to offer the wrath of god as part of an answer to your question as well. That even if god says I'm gonna let you be I'm gonna you know. Give you over as we talked about last week that's the language that Paul used numerous york times I'm gonna give you over to what you want to do in your sin. That's the wrath of god god saying okay I'm gonna let you do what you want to do that is for our good ultimately to try to turn us to get us to realize oh this thing I thought I wanted is and ultimately what I want.

11:27.77
Jeremy
And so God will allow us to experience that much like I do with my kids. It's like all right? You think this thing's gonna be good for you. It's not but I'm gonna let you see that for yourself and I think God can do that So That's my answer. Obviously that is hugely biased based on my view of God but I think. That's the only way I know how to answer it and you know if I didn't think that of God then I would say yeah well to be easy to say God's just doing nothing but then I would say then I'd have to I'd have to formulate a different view of god.

11:59.15
forestandtrees
Yeah, so well. So when he would talk about the kindness and patience ah like he's showing kindness basically by withholding punishment is that right? like Verse 2 says and we know that God and his justice will punish anyone who does such things So is it. I Guess like it utter that that seems to say something about the character of God as Well, right? if the if his default mode is punishing sinners and he's he's going above and Beyond He's being patient here by withholding Punishment. You know what? I mean.

12:29.71
Jeremy
Well yeah, but again it goes back to what do we think you know what do we think of the nature of the punishment of God and so we've talked about this previously. But you know we we have to go to hell helping the ultimate punishment of God and I would say because of my view of God Any punishment of God is always.

12:35.59
forestandtrees
Oh.

12:49.19
Jeremy
Ultimately for redemption purposes. So It's not punitive. It's not God you know letting letting it rip and just getting his anger out or God Needing Revenge It is ultimately for our for our good and so if God gives us punishment. It is for our good if God Withholds something. It would be for our good as Well. And again the reason I believe that is because of everything else I've seen and experience about God but I think any way that you're going to answer that question is gonna take you right back? No matter who you are. It's gonna take you right back to where did you start with your view of God because ultimately you're just gonna end up. Illustrating This is what you really view about god.

13:28.17
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that's true I mean it was of course your you're going with the the hypothesis that god always looks like Jesus right? So that's that's how you get this idea of like when you see negative words like punishment or wrath or whatever you you have to find a way to.

13:37.17
Jeremy
Correct.

13:47.14
Jeremy
Well not reinterpret them I interpret them through the person of Jesus because you know that's who I think is the ultimate revelation of god so all right? How do I make sense of this phrase. Paul's using I interpret it through the person of Jesus because that's who god's revealed to be and so that goes back to one of the things I said in the intro to this this book was.

13:47.59
forestandtrees
Reinterpret them interpret. Okay, sure.

14:06.88
Jeremy
We're gonna you know we're gonna put Paul under the person of Jesus they're not peers. So I interpret Paul through Jesus not the other way or um I don't interpret Jesus through Paul.

14:15.77
forestandtrees
All right? Yeah I I can buy that you know with as long. Yeah, as long as you have your assumptions Jeremy you know it. It makes sense to me. So.

14:26.37
Jeremy
We all have assumptions Jeff I can just articulate mine.

14:33.20
forestandtrees
It's True. It's true I feel like I Well that I don't know I guess just to say like I feel like I had assumptions as well with because you know because I was born and raised in christianity like I feel like I I went into reading the bible with with the assumption that you know God must be good God must be redemptive. All this stuff and just like the more I read it the more it seemed like difficult to square some of these things I mean the talk about punishing sin in in Romans is not the most the most egregious thing God has done in the bible. But yeah I don't know it just speaks to that that general theme anyway.

15:04.66
Jeremy
But I do think there are a lot of Christians this maybe this is the point you're making that that don't know the assumptions they're working with and so they get into some of these and they're like what do I think about God and can't you know and again for a lot of Christians and I've I've experienced this in my conversations Jesus can be anything you want them to be and so.

15:10.41
forestandtrees
Um.

15:23.14
forestandtrees
Um.

15:23.27
Jeremy
Jesus can condone genocide in the old testament and go yeah, that's Jesus you know and it's like well if jesus can be that and Jesus can be the person in the gospels then like this we got a schizophrenic Jesus who's all over the place like which one is it I don't I don't know how to choose that and so I think. Wherever you land at least have you know I would encourage everybody have the ability to articulate this is who I think god is or isn't you know like this is this is my view I'm starting with and then you know be able to connect why you land at certain places with all your different theological answers.

16:00.55
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, totally all right? all right? I I feel like I could push you further about you. We've got a lot to get to here. So let's let's move on to verse 11 ah, which just just a very declarative statement.

16:09.30
Jeremy
Let's get to it.

16:16.48
forestandtrees
Says god does not show favoritism this like what's what's that adage that you should never make in an ultimate statement like there's a declarative statement with 0 exceptions because it's always going to have exceptions to it.

16:30.25
Jeremy
Yeah, it could be. It could be dangerous.

16:34.71
forestandtrees
Yeah, yes, anyway that this verse just seems like you know primed for me to Nitpick ah god does not show favoritism to me. This seems obviously false if you look at the biblical narrative. Of course we've talked about this a bunch of times that god seemed to favor Israel above all the other nations. They're the protagonist of. The old testament and then basically everyone else is the enemy. Um, he also anoints specific people to do his work to be prophets or Kings or to be like the one family on earth that is not destroyed in a global flood. For example. And get to romans nine and calvinism and and god saying Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated or Paul saying that about god rather? Um, so that's probably a can of worms we can probably explore further in future weeks and even Jesus even the person of Jesus. According to the Gospels had his inner circle and he had the disciple that he loved so again like I just feel like this verse god does not show favoritism is just asking to be criticized here. So here's my question. Why doesn't god just admit that he plays favorites.

17:47.49
Jeremy
I got to tell you and I read this question this week I literally laughed out loud because you you explain you know where you were going with it and I thought you're absolutely right? like on you know, just on an immediate surface level reading.

17:53.58
forestandtrees
Yes.

18:05.00
Jeremy
You can quickly if you know the bible at all, you can quickly think of well what about what about what about what about and you and you you brought up a few good ones like what about this, you know and so it does make me laugh and this is where I think this is why this conversation's good Jeff because you are bringing in to the conversation. What. You know I think is a healthy ah a healthy skepticism of whoa if this means this what about this and you know you're using the text to you know bear light on the text which I think is is great and so I just I applaud that that's that's good. This is why you know if you're if you're a Christian listening to this and you you know, live in Christian circles and you go to the same church with the same people every weekend you can easily start to believe everyone sees god and faith in the bible. The way you do. And that's why these kind of conversations are helpful because you you sit with someone else and go. Oh yeah I mean that's that's a little problematic so hat's off to you this. This was a good this is a good poke

19:10.92
forestandtrees
Oh thank you? Yeah yeah, you know, just um, ah people talk about the bible. It doesn't make sense. You know how could a man live inside of a whale. How could there be a global flaw Blah Bla blah but I'm like okay, whatever just make it internally make sense make the internal logic make it.

19:23.66
Jeremy
Just agree with yourself on the verses. Yeah okay I'm a try Jeff I'm I'm gonna do my best here dilo digging on this found some fun facts for you. Did you know that the word.

19:27.16
forestandtrees
Yeah, exactly agree with yourself exactly make it make sense Jeremy okay.

19:42.69
Jeremy
Translated as favoritism has so far only been found in Christian writers. It does not occur before the new testament which means the word Paul is using here is apparently a christian word made up by christians. So we obviously have an english translation that you know we've transited as favoritism but the actual word he's using is a word that christians invented as far as we can tell which I just think is kind of an interesting I don't know historical way to understand this text. Paul's addressing a concept that.

20:06.18
forestandtrees
Um.

20:20.39
Jeremy
Either Paul created or the new testament writers. You know there's no nothing before this and then really, we've only seen it translated from Christian authors now in the context of Romans two. So the verses preceding what he just said they're all about injustice.

20:30.79
forestandtrees
Um.

20:38.61
Jeremy
And you know that's the context of what Paul's talking about and then he brings this idea of favoritism and I I studied a little bit this week of where else does this idea get brought up and all the other examples that I found were all in the context of injustice. So. My my answer is gonna start with I think maybe favoritism is not the perfect english word to describe the concept. Paul's describing here because I would agree with you favoritism doesn't work. It falls apart that statement doesn't hold to be true if we understand it with. The translation of favoritism so I want to agree with you there and then posit a new theory of can we create space for something else given the fact that this is ah, an apparently original word to the the new testament writers. So maybe there's some other definition of what Paul's trying to get at and we kind of landed on favoritism and called it a day and didn't realize that doesn't really work now I would say a few things. Yes god absolutely according to like a literal definition of favoritism god absolutely plays favorites and I would say this. Because of the text and you reference this but you know, ah 1 of the themes we talk about this one of the themes throughout the bible is that god would pick people to bless in hopes that they would bless others now that is a a version of favoritism.

22:06.72
Jeremy
But ultimately I would say it's not favoritism the way we ought to think about it. So favoritism we think about is usually in a negative sense where you know I have five kids if I were to play favorites with my kids that would you know you think of oh he's picked 1 kid over the other kids that is not okay, that's you know that's.

22:26.60
forestandtrees
Like if you got a really nice coat for just one of your kids that was that was really colorful. Yeah sorry sorry sorry.

22:26.18
Jeremy
Which adds bad parenting.

22:32.60
Jeremy
Um, stop quoting the bible Jeff gosh I'm trying to answer your theology questions. You just keep bringing more verses in that's that's hilarious. Yes, well done hat tip to you? well done. Ah so that you know again, that's favoritism. And that story doesn't end well because of that favoritism and you know the brothers resent him. That's what happens when you have favoritism which is why this is not I don't think the right word to use because favoritism creates that kind of animosity and you you keep illustrating it. You know there's there's tons of examples of that. But.

22:57.90
forestandtrees
Right? right.

23:10.77
Jeremy
If you look at why did god bless Israel and you know beginning with Abraham. What was the intent there. It wasn't to exclude the other people in the world. It was god's method of showing his blessing to all the world and that would be like me saying I'm going to. To look at my oldest son who's 14 and he can drive soon. You know I'm already thinking about that cause we need help on the driving front. So like all right? you know in like a year year and a half you can you know start helping drive and then you get your license is gonna be awesome and.

23:35.87
forestandtrees
Yeah.

23:46.52
Jeremy
I'm going to you know let you have access to a vehicle that no other kid has but the purpose of that is you're gonna help us. You know, drive your siblings around so in one sense you could look at that and go well you're showing favorites. You're letting one of your kids drive and you're not letting all your kids drive. Right? You're like oh yeah, like 1 kid has access because of the the specifics of what that kid has like he's older and you know he's able to drive. But ultimately the the point is I would want all of my kids to be equally blessed and equally experience that and so. I would suggest that when we think about favoritism with god we think about it more in a holistic What do we actually see in the big picture not just in moment by moment where you'd say well yeah, they certainly got something that others didn't get because yeah you know Peter James and John were the 3 inner circles. You know they're part of Jesus circle that you mentioned but it wasn't to say Jesus didn't value or appreciate the other disciples he was just entrusting. You know those 3 for whatever reasons he picked them of like you're gonna have a little bit more leadership and you know hopefully you'll help the others and so I always suggest that's a good way.

24:38.93
forestandtrees
Um.

24:54.41
Jeremy
Of understanding god save it is now there is 1 other way that I want to illustrate that Jesus completely changed the game in light of any type of perceived favoritism we might find in the old testament to the new testament and this might seem like a total curveball out of left field. But I'm gonna I'm gonna put a nice bow on this for us. Okay, now I want to talk about the weather does god control the weather lot of lot of modern day doom and gloom preachers. You know they every time there's an earthquake every time there's a tsunami it is you know.

25:15.78
forestandtrees
Okay.

25:29.98
forestandtrees
Um.

25:34.10
Jeremy
Something happened literally what was it. There was just some earthquake around the world and I saw some preacher saying that's because of Sam Smith's grammy appearance and I'm like oh my gosh like okay so even today.

25:43.40
forestandtrees
Oh really, that's great.

25:51.90
Jeremy
This exists within.

25:52.87
forestandtrees
It's not like it's not like they gave him the dove award right? This is the grammys. This is the the secular distortion. Yeah.

25:57.82
Jeremy
Ah, that would be right. That would be an interesting twist ah to which on a side note and I didn't mean to get into this. But if you think Stamp Smith dressing up like like the caricature of the devil is evil incarnate. I'd like to show you the face of real evil and it doesn't look like Sam Smith's grammy performance and there there is real evil in our world and if you're getting lost on that I just want to encourage you I think you're think you're confused but that's just that's that's bonus, that's that's a bonus free free for everybody.

26:26.19
forestandtrees
M.

26:31.98
forestandtrees
Nice.

26:33.96
Jeremy
Let me go back to the weather the weather. What's what's the deal just god control the weather. Well here's the fun fact in the old testament god does control the weather and it's interesting. How god controls the weather let me give you just 2 examples. There's more by I pick two two good ones Leviticus. 26 3 3 5 god says this to the people of god if you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands notice the conditional language if you do this and you do that I will send you. The seasonal rains. Okay, this is transactional god if you listen to me if you behave I will give you rain and he goes on the land will then yield its crops and the trees of the field will produce their fruit your threshing season will overlap with the great harvest.

27:14.45
forestandtrees
Right.

27:27.79
Jeremy
And great harvest will overlap with the season of planting grain. You will eat your fill and live securely in your own land if you listen to me I'm gonna hook you up the weather's gonna be great and again if you're living in an agricultural society where you literally it's life or death whether or not you have a good growing season. This is a big deal. For god to say hey you behave you listen I'm gonna give you this deuteronomy doubles down on this deuteronomy 11 versus 13 to 17 if you carefully obey the commands I am giving you today and if you love the lord your god. And serve him with all your heart and soul. Okay, again, all these ifs if you do all these things then he will send the rains in their proper seasons the early and the late rains so you can bring in your harvests of grain new wine and olive oil. He will give you lush pastorland for your livestock.

28:10.58
forestandtrees
Ah.

28:22.85
Jeremy
And you yourselves will have all you want to eat but be careful now. Deuterony adds the negative as well. Don't let your heart be deceived so that you turn away from the lord your god and you serve and worship other gods if you do so not only not we start a positive. You do the good things if you do the bad things. The Lord's anger will burn against you. He will shut up the sky and hold back the rain and the ground will fail to produce its harvest then you will quickly die in that good land. The lord is giving you now this is I think pretty fascinating that. According to an ancient near East Israelite understanding of god god literally gave them reign or withheld the reign based on whether or not they were doing good following god so it is a very much and I would say this is favoritism.

29:15.12
forestandtrees
Um.

29:19.49
Jeremy
Because God is saying if you you know you're my chosen people you do what I want you will have better weather than the rest of the world and you know if I was another people group Next you know next door to the israelites and I heard about this I'd be like well it gives for us like like we don't have a chance to.

29:34.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, and depending it if it on if they got the rain if the neighboring nations got some of the rain as well or if it was just over Israel this was that be a big. Yeah yeah, exactly.

29:37.38
Jeremy
You know, like oh we're left out these guys are gonna get the best weather.

29:45.74
Jeremy
You just perfectly around Israel like no drops get onto anyone else. Okay, but here's here's and and there's more examples of that. But here's the fascinating part when you get to the new testament and you get to Jesus.

29:53.81
forestandtrees
Mm.

30:04.70
Jeremy
All bets are off and 1 of the most brilliant and one of my favorite passages Matthew chapter 5 verses 43 through 45 Jesus says this you have heard the law that says love your neighbor and hate your enemy. You could say that is morality in the old testament. Love the people that love you hate the people who hate you and most of us operate on this today. But then Jesus says this but I say love your enemies is there anything that would break favoritism more than that.

30:27.99
forestandtrees
Um.

30:43.00
Jeremy
Love your enemies. Okay, Jesus that that's weird. Nobody wants to love their enemies or good gets more pray for those who persecute you so when someone's actively doing something against you pray for their good pray for god's favor to be upon them. In that way if you actually do this. You will be acting as true children of your father in heaven. This is what it means Jesus says to be part of this family is we are the opposite of favoritism and then check this out. Jeff this part is incredible and then Jesus says this next. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike to which anyone who knew the old testament passages I read would say.

31:31.60
forestandtrees
Yeah.

31:39.30
Jeremy
No god doesn't that's not how god works and here Jesus hijacks. All of it. Jesus Upends all of it Jesus makes no room at all for favoritism. It's the anti favoritism theology right here. You're going to love your your enemies. You're gonna pray for people who are actively working to harm. You're gonna pray for their good and and why do we do this because this is who god is because god gives sunlight to the good god gives sunlight to the bad god gives rain to the good god gives rain to the bad. This is a beautiful ah demonstration of progressive revelation that we've talked about that they thought this thing about god in the old testament and then Jesus drops the hammer and goes god isn't like that god's like this and if you understood this. There really is no favoritism in the sense that we often think of as favoritism. There is god wanting the thriving and the blessing of all people and god will use people like us who are in the family to bring about this radical upside down. Type of kingdom.

32:50.55
forestandtrees
Yeah class I mean classic Jesus just saying like you basically wasted your time reading the old testament because none of it applies.

32:58.37
Jeremy
Um, okay, ah for the record that was not the point I made.

33:05.77
forestandtrees
Um, it's ah no, no, no, it's some. It's like jazz right? The um the notes that are disharmonious that are out of key that they make the the tones all all the richer right? something like that I don't know.

33:17.22
Jeremy
Um, okay I go I can go with that.

33:22.40
forestandtrees
I Don't know I mean I know we've talked about this before this is kind of like a a classic thing about the bible that you could either say is is a strength or a weakness depending on your assumptions right? The way that it it kind of disagrees with itself and has has multiple multiple worldviews depending on the author.

33:37.32
Jeremy
Absolutely, but if we interpret it through Jesus which is what I do I think you have a killer way to answer your question and say no god doesn't actually show favoritism in the sense of the way we think of favoritism yes god does pick people.

33:40.18
forestandtrees
Yeah, sir.

33:56.41
Jeremy
God does bring people into unique situations. But ultimately the heart of god is never to bless 1 person and not bless the other.

34:04.50
forestandtrees
Yeah I suppose would you say like the afterlife comes into play there as well because obviously some people have much better lives in this world than others right? and some people.

34:14.74
Jeremy
I Would absolutely say that and the fact that I believe God is going to redeem all people further speak to the point of there is no favoritism. So even if you didn't get to experience. You know what? we would think of as a healthy relationship with God in this life or if your life was filled with suffering you know.

34:27.82
forestandtrees
Um.

34:33.72
Jeremy
I think god absolutely makes that up to you in profound ways for all eternity and again if I didn't have that view I would be more prone to want something like karma or some way of explaining you know injustice today but because I can say no I think this is who god. Is revealed to be because this is who Jesus reveals god to be like this is that's the heart of god like literally gives the evil people sunshine and rain as well. Like and if you're an adult you know you're an ancient israelite listening to this at that point, you'd be like no we get the sunlight we get the rain like that's one of our perks. And Jesus like no, that's not how god works.

35:14.84
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I can see how how it would be frustrating for other people, especially especially if they spent all this time you know having the wrong worldview that was apparently like the the revealed word of god but you know I mean I understand that that Jesus flips everything on its head interpretation of things. So and it makes sense. That's a good answer. Ah all right? Ah so let's so we got some more stuff about ah jews versus gentiles in verses 14 and 15 certain verse fourteens says even gentiles who do not have god's law written.

35:35.62
Jeremy
Thank you.

35:53.24
forestandtrees
Ah, god's of written law show that they know his law when they in instinctively instinctively obey it even without having heard it. They demonstrate that god's law is written on their hearts for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. So this seems like sort of a similar concept to what we talked about last week with general revelation. The idea of you don't need anyone to tell you about god you don't need the bible because you just know right? You just know right from wrong. This is certainly in an argument I've heard a lot of apologists make for this proves the existence of god because we have a moral. Conscience and again like general revelation I agree to a point because I would say yeah any any society of humans whether they know about christianity or not will figure out for themselves murder is wrong. Stealing is wrong lying is wrong. Certainly not going to come up with some of the old testament laws like don't wear mixed fabrics. Don't boil a goat and its mother's milk. Um, you know some of those it's it's written on your heart. Yeah, you know it to be true, just just search your feelings Jeremy um.

36:57.45
Jeremy
Come on Jeff you don't think those are obvious.

37:07.57
Jeremy
These clothes don't feel right.

37:09.73
forestandtrees
Anyway, so yeah, yes, this polycotton blend is all wrong anyway, so we we don't need to litigate the some of the weird laws of the old testament because that's you know that's kind of a classic objection and we don't have time for that. Ah, but I'm I'm Goingnna bring up some of the see. Very important things in the 10 commandments. So the first three are have no other gods before me have no graven images and don't take god's name in vain surely those are supposed to be super important but I would argue that none of those 3 laws are intuitive. None of them would just come to you naturally. Ah, from your own conscience if someone hadn't told you those laws specifically so the question is why doesn't god put the types of laws that would specify who got is specifically on our own human conscience.

38:04.35
Jeremy
It's it's yet again a great question Jeff from someone who knows a troubling amount of the bible and can reference it in your questions. So I I applaud you on this question and I offer disclaimer that I don't think you're gonna like my answer. So I'm just gonna just add that out there but I'll I'll offer it. Um, one thing and I don't have this in my notes but just as I was listening to you I I think it's interesting. You know if you look at old testament law for sure I agree with you some of those are not intuitive and are not. You know I wouldn't expect if i.

38:23.17
forestandtrees
Nice.

38:41.72
Jeremy
Popped into some unknown you know people group in the Amazon that has lived off the grid that they would have that intuitively as well without any you know interaction with the rest of civilization or something like I wouldn't expect you know that but you go to the new testament and you know Jesus is asked.

38:55.78
forestandtrees
Um.

39:01.30
Jeremy
Hey, what there's 613 laws in the old testament which one's the most important Jesus boils it down to 2 Jesus says love god and love other people I would suggest that I think that's written on our hearts that's written on our conscience that this sense of loving god. And again, whatever god means to that person but then also some sense of loving others I do think you could say at that level I think most people have that and I don't know. Maybe you would say no but I would say you could at least start there and go yeah those ones seem to be written the ones that Jesus said sum up. All of the old testament according to Jesus those seem to be pretty self-evident in in all different cultures. So maybe that it.

39:47.21
forestandtrees
I mean I would yeah I mean I would say one of those for sure like love love people like if we all loved each other then that's like the meaning of then there would be peace on Earth right? and then whether we should love God or not I guess is is more controversial or more open to debate right.

40:03.42
Jeremy
Well I think just just because we could say it's written on someone's heart doesn't mean everyone chooses to follow that I Just think you would say as a general starting point is that true in most cultures and I would say yeah, there's atheists in every culture. But I think most cultures.

40:11.44
forestandtrees
Um.

40:16.57
forestandtrees
Um.

40:21.49
Jeremy
At least the majority of people have some sense of trying to have a relationship with god and again, whatever that god looks like to them so again, just an interesting side. Note not on my notes just thinking about that of like yeah maybe those 2 but I think my answer that I originally wrote down was that.

40:26.68
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

40:38.17
Jeremy
Why doesn't god do that I think for the same reason that Jesus taught in parables and we've talked about this conundrum before but well Jesus why are you teaching people in parables in these stories that are not clear that 5 people could listen to and have 5 different conclusions of as they walk away.

40:45.84
forestandtrees
Um.

40:57.85
Jeremy
And still not know what there's supposed to do with it like don't teach and stories just tell us what to believe and what to do and be wake quicker way easier. But Jesus doesn't he teaches primarily in parables. So I thought all right I'm gonna let Jesus answer why did jesus teach in parables.

41:07.39
forestandtrees
Yeah.

41:16.89
Jeremy
According to Jesus okay Matthew 13 verses 10 through thirteen say this his disciples came and asked him. Why do you use parables when you talk to people I think they had the same frustration you have yo just make it clear why you keep telling stories and Jesus Replied

41:28.27
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

41:36.13
Jeremy
You are permitted to understand the secret of the kingdom of heaven but others are not to those who listen to my teaching more understanding will be given and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them that is why I use these parables. They look but they don't really see they hear but they don't really listen or understand now that I would say at best is a bit of a confusing answer that Jesus gives here but there seems to be 2 takeaways. Yeah, okay, there needs to be at least 2 takeaways.

42:07.19
forestandtrees
Very very on brand though.

42:14.52
Jeremy
You can get from it one. It would seem that this is an element of truth true faith from god's point of view so something in this and god communicating with more of a vague story that invites us in without you know Xyz connect the dots seems to be part of faith. And also seems to me to be a component of free will that I can see something I can hear something and I can choose my response to that and not have one automatic response right? Like if you you know Ah, a lot of times christians want to believe like well if we really saw who Jesus is. Then everybody would be a believer like no, they wouldn't because everybody could see Jesus when Jesus was physically walking around and not everybody believed him and read John six like people walk away after seeing Jesus do America's s things. So just because you see Jesus even in person. Doesn't mean all your questions are answered and it all makes sense to you and so I think this is some element of faith and some element of free will and this is the way that god chose to do it and so again I understand your frustration here of like just make it more clear I also have to just go. I think god could have made it more clear if god wanted to god didn't choose to do it that way. So I'm going to trust. There's some reason why Jesus taught in parables or some reason why there's not you know the the top 10 things to believe about god and the top 10 things to do.

43:44.56
Jeremy
In response and I think fate is more mysterious and more beautiful and more messy and I'm grateful for that now with all that I realize you may not like that answer. So I'm gonna ask the same thing to you put you on the hot seat and so let me reread it like just verse 15

43:57.94
forestandtrees
Yeah.

44:04.25
Jeremy
And imnna ask to see you so verse 15 sayss their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right? So Jeff how would you describe the way you view your conscience these days if you think that exists and what does doing right. Mean to you.

44:24.99
forestandtrees
Yeah that's a great question. Jeremy ah I've been thinking about it for days and I have a lot of thoughts on it. Um, but here so here's what I came up with for kind of a working definition of conscience is it's this emotional poll that. Makes you feel good for doing good things makes you feel bad for doing bad things. Would you agree? That's a good like definition of conscience. Okay.

44:49.28
Jeremy
I'm processing on the fly. Ah I think the emotional pull part makes me have a slight caution because I think our emotions can be misleading at times. Um, so I would want it to maybe be a little bit more than that like maybe there's some inner logic there or inner reasoning.

44:54.12
forestandtrees
Okay.

45:07.30
Jeremy
And addition to emotion but sure what loan ask me then if I agree.

45:08.00
forestandtrees
Um, okay, well hopefully you agree because I need to move forward with my hypothesis I regret asking you almost immediately. Ah my conscience. Ah all right.

45:20.83
Jeremy
Um, what you get? How's a feel being in the other side of that.

45:24.92
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, it feels terrible. My my conscience is all torn up all right? Well anyway. So anyway, So so when I think of like what I say here's like a basic example of your conscience activating right? like let's say you're a little kid on the playground and you shove your friend a little bit too hard and he falls down and starts Crying. You know you just I would if I did that I would immediately feel bad like I wouldn't need a teacher to tell me I did something bad there right? That's that's your conscience activating as far as I understand it. So I think on on some level that makes sense. But I think I'd started thinking of all these examples. Of the way that our emotions can be manipulated when we don't have the right information. So There's um, there's been a lot of studies about um the way people give to charities and the way people ah nonprofits Market. They're charitable giving I don't know if you've heard of these studies where if you show just one starving child.

46:21.53
Jeremy
O.

46:23.59
forestandtrees
People will give more money versus if you show to or if you show like a whole village of starting people. People are less emotionally attached and they'll give less money than just the one even though logically you know the more people you help the better right? So that's an example. Um and then so to to try to think about. Ways that I I feel a lack of conscience for doing bad in my own life I think about you know I I read articles and I'm aware of the whole problem of fast fashion right? but just a couple years ago I became totally obsessed with buying these brown t-shirts from Walmart right. And I I just couldn't believe how inexpensive they were and how much they were just like the perfect shirt exactly what I wanted I would just buy them up I would always check and make sure they were in my right size and it wasn't until like years later that I had that I even stopped to consider the environmental. Impact and the human suffering caused by me buying these very inexpensive t-shirts ah to talk about. In fact, oh man I got I got a closet full. It's it's a problem. Oh i.

47:23.51
Jeremy
How many of these t-shirts. Do you have. Like like let's put a number on it. Okay I don't.

47:36.36
forestandtrees
Probably like a dozen I don't know so you know that so just personal goal of mine is like to not to not buy any new clothes for as long as possible Anyway, ah also ah in terms of environmental impacts recycling.

47:43.53
Jeremy
Oh.

47:52.20
forestandtrees
Is something that is basically designed to alleviate guilt like to clear your conscience like as long as I put the plastic bottle and the correct bin then I have contributed zero plastic to the landfills. But of course the more you research and learn about recycling and the process the limitations of the recycling process the lifecycle of plastics the more you learn that. Ah your conscience should probably not be as clear as you think it should because a lot of that plastic I'm sorry to say that you put in the recycling bin is still going in landfills all right. Ah, what 1 more personal story about trying to lower environmental impact a couple years ago I started riding my bike to work and I was really proud of myself I thought this is so cool I'm not driving I'm reducing carbon emissions, blah blah blah are I so great and then I started reading about. Ah. Meat animal products, meat consumption and I learned that consuming meat is 5 times more and has 5 times more environmental impact than driving a car so that was the the reason I started um went vegetarian in the first place was I realized. Oh if I'm gonna be on my high horse and briding about drive. Not driving a car but I'm still consuming meat. Ah again, just without the information. My emotions ah were not telling me what was right? What was wrong. Okay, so and I wanted to share this.

49:23.55
forestandtrees
Ah, quote from the book that I was reading. It's called eating animals by Jonathan Saffron foyer it says compassion is a muscle that gets stronger with use and the regular exercise of choosing kindness over cruelty would change us. Okay, so this is he's a you know the book talks about the environmental impact burssel talks about how we should have you. Compassion for animals and honestly when I first stopped eating meat. It was not because of the animal rights issue it was because of the environmental impact. But after I stopped eating meat I became more sensitive to the issue of animal rights as well and so that. I found this quote to be true in the sense that it changed my perspective on ah it it. It gave me ah a change of conscience in a way once I had more of the information and once I began practicing it more. So just all that to say I feel like. The human conscience in and of itself is not completely reliable to help us determine right? from wrong. But I think there are ways that we can game the system once we obtain more information and start practicing um ah more.

50:38.20
Jeremy
Home So you're saying Essentially what is what is all based on is your study of reality facts learning more and that like once you learn something. That's what you're gonna say oh that But like I guess you know.

50:38.35
forestandtrees
Virtuous things.

50:56.61
Jeremy
How do you know that? ah you know the environmentalism is obviously a passion for you. But how do you know? That's more important than some other need that you know, maybe something else in your life is contributing to some other problem but that problem doesn't bother you as much as environmentalism.

51:04.74
forestandtrees
Um.

51:15.95
Jeremy
How do you make sense of well why? why is it at environmentalism. That's the top or you know how would you rank them if you had to compete like hey I'm about to eat something. It's either going to be bad for the environment or it's gonna be bad for children. You know I mean like you had to choose 2 things of like how would you make sense of.

51:27.97
forestandtrees
Sure.

51:32.99
Jeremy
Which one are you choosing then if they both are going to have some type of a negative consequence.

51:37.50
forestandtrees
Sure so I feel like you're asking me a little bit about like objective morality like where does morality come from kind of there. How do you decide? What is the the greatest good I guess for for me like environmentalism seems um, clearly. To be at least 1 of the most important things. Um that we can be concerned about because if we don't have a planet with human life then all other human suffering ah won't matter anyway. Um, so you know obviously some people don't really agree with with that or some people think like.

52:11.59
forestandtrees
Ah, concerned about environmentalism are overblown or whatever but I don't know. Yeah, that's what I believe based on the information that I've processed. Ah yes.

52:18.86
Jeremy
So Would you say logic. Yeah, like you've you've logically you know made that conclusion.

52:30.29
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean what I guess what I'm saying is like it's ah you combine the logical aspects of of like ethics with the emotional aspects right? like because I'm I'm talking about like if conscience is the emotional. Aspect or maybe you would say that it's a combination of the 2 but I'm I'm saying we you can't rely on the the emotions in and of themselves. Um, but you but the emotions are still Important. You just need to check them against the logic I suppose.

53:04.59
Jeremy
Sure.

53:06.49
forestandtrees
And see this yeah see if if what you're doing is truly right? or ah like like I was saying before it. It could be possible to to think that you're doing something good and then once you check the facts. You realize you're actually doing more harm than good.

53:20.42
Jeremy
Totally and I and that's why you know when you originally asked about conscience I'd say if it's only emotions then I think it's gonna be inadequate which you ended up going into that but I totally agree with that I would say yeah as as a Christian I would connect my conscience to the Holy spirit. You know in dwelling inside of me. So I think the Holy spirit uses my conscience as well. Which then means there can be things that that I may go oh that What I just did was wrong and it may not be because my. Own emotions told me that it may not be because my own reason told me that it may be because the holy spirit prompted something in me of like that wasn't right? So I would I would say you know as a believer I would added another element that you probably would not and say I think that Holy spirit. In addition, you know is is ah a um. Ah catalyst for me to realize and self-relec and go hey something about that doesn't feel right and then I would you know see where my emotions go see where my reason goes see where my logic like I would then you know pursue that as well. But there's another component to me where sometimes like I don't think my my own reason or my own emotions would have flagged anything. But there's something that felt off about that or you know, um I see someone and there's some something that all of a sudden pings in me, It's like whoa I gotta go talk to them right? you know and it's like I can't explain that and it's not just an emotional feel. There's something else. That's what I think it's interesting. The haies conversations. You know it kind of goes back to the question I asked you last.

54:49.29
Jeremy
Week about like well if you're an atheist. How can you have a sense of morality. It's like there is you know there is some sense you have of Morality obviously in what right and you would say you know the environment is something worth pursuing and worth sacrificing for and you know and it's coming from somewhere. So I just think it's interesting to hear you articulate that and so I.

55:04.20
forestandtrees
Um.

55:06.94
forestandtrees
Yeah, and we had I mean several office says ago I asked the question of like or had an objection to christianity about like it tends to cause people did not really care about environmentalism because of like the doctor of we're getting a new heaven. A new Earth anyway or you know I'm I'm oversimplifying it but I would say just like.

55:07.26
Jeremy
I Appreciate that.

55:20.68
Jeremy
Right.

55:26.51
forestandtrees
The the data seems to back up the idea that Christians don't seem to care at large about environmentalism the way that ah you know the secular world does and of course like I I mean I don't know if I'm right about that. It's It's possible that the conservative climate night are Christians are correct and that. You know us liberals are are overly concerned about environmentalism and we shouldn't be but if you know if you want to grant that environmentalism is something worth being concerned about then it seems alarming that so many Christians don't seem to care now all right.

55:58.81
Jeremy
Totally yeah, that's good.

56:05.32
forestandtrees
Well, ah, all right time for the the final question speaking of speaking of old testament laws that you would not think of on your own unless someone told you specifically to do it.

56:07.00
Jeremy
The finale.

56:15.48
Jeremy
Really not. It's not written on your heart.

56:22.57
forestandtrees
Ah, not, it's not written on my heart. It might be written somewhere else on my body. But.

56:27.80
Jeremy
Oh boy.

56:31.76
forestandtrees
Okay, ah this is this is a major theme throughout the book of romans but I want to call it out here because it's it's being brought up verse 25 the jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey god's law. But if you don't obey god's Law. You're no better. Then an uncircumcised gentile all right? So I just want to say first of all I understand the whole like new testament thing circumcision. The heart bla blah blah you don't need to get circumcised now. So like I I understand that that aspect of it because Paul talks about that a lot of like it's ok to not be physically circumcised. Um, I'm I'm more just curious about like why? Why does god require circumcision in the first place you know of of all the things to to set his people apart. It seems like a weird choice right? And ah, ah, just to say a circumcision is a controversial practice that is continually practiced. To this day and ah you if you start going down the rabbit hole of researching should you get circumcised or not should you circumcise your children or not. It's it's a huge question. The jury is very much out and at least as far as my research goes some people would say that it's hygienic and it's helpful and you're better off circumcised. Some people would argue. It's a cruel form of genital mutilation. Some people say you know it's it doesn't matter that much but it's tradition so you may as well just go with tradition. Um, so that's that's kind of maddeningly unclear and from my perspective.

58:04.50
forestandtrees
But anyway, just want to tell a little bit of a side story about the force and trees. Ah Instagram account if if you guys aren't following us on Instagram I've been making a lot of graphics to to promote the podcast and just bring up different ideas and stuff and at one point I made a graphic just about um, a good news in the new testament. You don't need to get circumcised anymore. Made it just for fun and it was reshared by an anti-circumcision meme account they they just scream shot at it and reposted it on their Instagram and honestly I was I was really excited to see that I was so proud you know to be to be a voice.

58:33.13
Jeremy
Um, ah.

58:36.56
Jeremy
You You were really proud of that. Yeah, that touched some special spot for you. That was funny.

58:40.78
forestandtrees
I I was yeah absolutely and to talk again to talk about my own personal sense of morality. Um I honestly did not have much of an opinion I knew I knew that it was a debated thing but I didn't have much of an opinion one way or the other about whether you should get circumcised or not um. For me, it was like just 1 more recent like it's a good idea to not have kids to not have to go through that decision process. But anyway, ah since I started following this anti-circumcision meme account and I've been exposed to you know, granted very biased data. They they have an agenda. Obviously they have their opinions and they're sharing information.

59:19.19
Jeremy
It's very very up for our agenda. Yes.

59:19.28
forestandtrees
From their perspective. Yeah yeah, I've become much more sympathetic to the anti cirrcumcision arguments they they really are they're they're owning me with facts and logic. Ah so so all that preample to say.

59:24.99
Jeremy
Wow, They're winning you over.

59:33.82
Jeremy
They're appealing to your conscience.

59:39.19
forestandtrees
Jeremy why does god call for circumcision in the first place and I have a bonus question for you that if you do want to say that circumcision is actually healthy and hygienic as some people will argue. Why did god not create us pre cirrcumcised. Why did he create us with this four skin.

59:58.57
Jeremy
Wow here we are folks chapter one was homosexuality chapter 2 we're talking circumcision. This is all people say the bible's boring. It's not boring. It's not about boring.

01:00:11.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, relevant to this day.

01:00:17.73
Jeremy
I wish we had a rabbi that we could just you know zoom in on this and hey what do you think you know give us some some perspective here. Obviously there's a lot culturally about this. But here's what I think is really an interesting. Fact to consider and like more than we probably would consider this but just to like stare at this fact circumcision did not originate with Israel nor did it end there. So historically it didn't start with Israel and it didn't end there now I think that's interesting because I think. What we often want to do is say this is a real characteristic of the israelite god and I'm gonna push pause on that and go is it or is this a cultural thing that.

01:01:04.38
forestandtrees
Um.

01:01:13.85
Jeremy
You know obviously got woven into their relationship with god and if it was you know something that god was so passionate about why did it? not you know why did Jesus not come preaching the merits and going really this was all about you know, being sorcuized so I'm just gonna.

01:01:32.37
forestandtrees
Um.

01:01:32.70
Jeremy
I'm gonna posit that theory that maybe this is more cultural than we realize Ah the egyptians practice circumcision. So we know other historical nations that did this so it wasn't this wasn't a unique. This is only israelites you know that have discovered this and do it. Um, Ishmael who was not a part of the covenant if you know the story in genesis 1723 Ishmael was circumcised so we go okay, well he he wasn't a part of you know this whole thing god was doing and what later became the israelites but he was circumcised so I I think it's worth. Trying to figure out and again this is where a rabbi would be interesting of like how much is this a cultural part of the israelite's identity and you know who they were who they are today that then you know had these spiritual dynamics added onto it and now we're left kind of trying to make sense of all of it. Because it's very different in the new testament like you said and and this is not the same thing now as I was studying this I came across an interesting sentence. This is from a famous rabbi rabbi Levi he said in the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance to Gehenna. And permit no circumcised israelite to descend therein. But now there's a lot there Abraham obviously is the father of circumcision. He's the he's the guy that got this going but according to this Rabbi and you know I think there's some rabbinical teaching here of this image of like.

01:03:05.89
Jeremy
The afterlife like the negative afterlife and again you know Gehenna is not necessarily hell the way we think of hell today I don't think Sam Smith is there next to Abraham. You know, inviting people in but there's this idea of you know Gehenna is not what you want to experience for eternity and they literally picture Abraham. At the gate checking circumcision which is just quite the image lift up your robe. It's time to see I can't let you go it in here. You're.

01:03:28.38
forestandtrees
Sounds very tedious right? or are people are people walking in to hell and already naked because I would speed up the process a little bit.

01:03:40.80
Jeremy
Right? I mean it makes you wonder how do they? How do they check? how they doing this so that was that was interesting but here so we don't You know we can kind of speculate on that and again without without a rabbi to explain all the historical significance all the cultural significance we can kind of just guess I'm not.

01:03:45.52
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:04:00.83
Jeremy
Um, not Jewish you're not Jewish you know So we we just kind of acknowledge. That's that's a huge part of their history.

01:04:01.14
forestandtrees
Yeah, also I'm I'm not a doctor I should say that right up front I don't take advice from me in terms of your decision making on this. Yeah, exactly.

01:04:12.21
Jeremy
You just play one on Tv. Okay so what we can talk about is Paul's view and we can talk about what Paul is doing here with this concept and I feel more qualified to talk about that I would say at a minimum. Paul's view is in sharp. Contradiction to what the old testament taught and what Paul is saying is for the circumcised people to break the law is for them to become uncircumcised now think about that as a statement to make to a jew like. Paul's arguing you know with a jewish audience and he's saying look if you don't follow the law. You're actually uncircumcised I mean that would be such an offensive way to communicate something to someone like this this hallmark of who they are their identity as a jew and Paul's like well yeah, if you don't but beta law.

01:04:48.11
forestandtrees
Um.

01:05:01.25
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

01:05:07.43
Jeremy
You're just like an uncircumcised person. So Paul is not attaching any saving value to the physical act Paul is looking for obedience to the revealed will of god not acceptance of a privileged position based on something physically that we have that others. May not have and you know verse 25 is a crazy sense. The jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey god's law which then means it has no value because the real determining is what you do with god's law right? You're saying it doesn't matter whether you're certain size. And again in that context I just don't think we realize because today it's like okay believe it don't believe it you know choose cercucision. Don't choose it. Not not usually going to be the most controversial decision. You'll make in your life. But for Paul to say this you know home its too. This is deeply.

01:05:57.99
forestandtrees
M.

01:06:05.57
Jeremy
Controversial deeply offensive and you know Paul's just going there and so I think we can acknowledge from a progressive revelation point if Paul's not holding this up as an example, if Jesus is not I'm gonna go with this was not the spiritual trademark. You know set by god that that it was you know somehow portrayed to be in the old testament I would say I was way more culturally influenced by the people who practiced it for cultural reasons and so today I think we have enough of a vantage point to maybe separate that a little bit and go. Oh yeah, that's probably way more of what that was. Rather than god really cared. You know god has a passion for circumcision I just would say in light of what we've seen the new testament I don't know how you would make that argument now. Ah you know why? Why weren't we born circumcised why it got crazy with a four skin. The obvious answer is cause god probably doesn't care whether or not you know boys have foureskin or not however from a jewish point of vl seeking. Well if boys didn't have a foureskin then circumcision as a defining Mark would be impossible so they might say god gave us this. So we could do this to Mark ourselves as part of god's people might be ah, a possible explanation from a more jewish or more pro circumcision argument. However I would be comfortable just to say I don't think god cares and you know.

01:07:39.62
Jeremy
Don't think god necessarily needs you to do it or assumes you got to do it and I think there's much more science today probably leading that way to go? Yeah, you don't necessarily need this and it's not going to you know all the all the benefits we once did so I would say even today I think it's cultural. Um, and obviously you know we're not jews. But we're still that's still a dominant part of even american culture which is interesting. You know to consider how many cultures today is this the norm I don't know but I want to land this answer on verse 29 because I think this is where Paul really makes the point.

01:08:00.90
forestandtrees
Um.

01:08:17.50
Jeremy
And this gets us beyond. You know, valuable or not first one name Paul says a true jew now we're we're doing elevated language here. Okay so the model jew a true jew is one whose heart is right with god and true circumcision meaning. Physical one is not enough true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law rather it is a change of heart produced by the spirit which again I would just say if we take Paul's argument here and we take what Jesus did with it I do not think god has an obsession with circumcision. And I think that's what we're left to conclude and I think in a culture where it was such a hallmark of god's people this was something the early church had to wrestle through to allow people to move beyond what they knew. Otherwise you know we would never have been here today where it was. Seen as optional.

01:09:13.25
forestandtrees
Yeah, well I mean you got that right? that it's something they need to wrestle through because it's as we talked about before. It's a continuous theme with Paul's letters if he keeps trying to reassure people that it's okay to not be circumcised. Yeah right.

01:09:23.19
Jeremy
Well I think it was a huge deal for them right? I mean I literally think like we dismissed that like why do you keep talking about it that would have been a hangup for so many of them culturally.

01:09:33.96
forestandtrees
Yeah, for sure and it's a little bit of that like the parable of the workers and like hey I did the work and then these people get to go in for free. Yeah yeah, because then of course like in the old testament. There's a lot of stories of a people who need to get circumcised as adults.

01:09:42.53
Jeremy
Wait a minute I had to do that. They don't have to do that. Oh I Totally see that argue it.

01:09:52.80
Jeremy
Yeah, that's rough.

01:09:54.80
forestandtrees
Um, Abraham Abraham was ninety years old I believe or a hundred. Yeah yeah.

01:09:57.69
Jeremy
He does it to himself move that's faith and the whole isaac thing. Yeah, whatever. But that circumcising yourself at ninety that is faith that should have got him into the hall of fame of the faith of you know Uris eleven.

01:10:11.81
forestandtrees
Yeah, fascinating stuff. Yeah, it's interesting I looked up some some other like pastors and rabbis and stuff give their answers to this and it yeah it is fascinating how like you know like a lot of things in the bible. You ask 1 question. To a hundred different pastors. They'll give you a hundred different answers. Ah you know you know, but but I I like what you had to say about it. Um, yeah, what 1 question I was wondering about the whole so setting the jews apart thing was.

01:10:31.43
Jeremy
Yeah.

01:10:46.25
forestandtrees
It wouldn't be a very good indicator to set them apart unless people are walking around naked. You know what? I mean how would you check for that.

01:10:52.41
Jeremy
I remember this was like this is a question ah that somebody asked in a seminary class I remember it because it was such a funny moment but you know the professor was lecturing on just this point of like you know this was the defining Mark of what made a good jew whatever and.

01:10:58.69
forestandtrees
Um.

01:11:08.39
Jeremy
Someone just raised their hand alast and they were like well how would you know like you picked you picked a mark that no one can see like how would you know and I'll never forget without skipping a beat The professor just goes you look under his toga.

01:11:16.23
forestandtrees
Yeah, exactly.

01:11:26.42
Jeremy
And it was like just this phrase that like came out like you look under the toga or thought I was like Wow Ah I think that is the irony of this now I think culturally again because it mattered on which day.

01:11:30.44
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:11:40.33
Jeremy
Boys were circumcised so they're like there's a cultural thing like you would have known as a child that child has been circumcised. So I think the real answer is in that culture. They would have known from the moment you were born whether or not you were circumcised because there was a whole ritual to it and if you didn't follow the ritual. They would have known.

01:11:42.90
forestandtrees
Um.

01:11:45.35
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:11:59.50
Jeremy
You didn't get circumcised on the eighth day. Whoa whoa whoa this is bad and again Jesus was circumcised. We know this on the eighth day right? So maybe that's where Smith were like well it's good enough for Jesus.

01:12:07.79
forestandtrees
Um.

01:12:16.13
forestandtrees
Good enough for Jesus. Yeah I asked I asked. Ah my uncle this because I was spending some time with family this weekend and he's he's a retired pastor I loved his answer his answer was that he wanted Abraham to be reminded of the promise so that every time he took a piss. He would be. He would see the mark and be reminded for that. Okay, yeah, that's a pretty creative answer I like it I I wish I would have thought beforehand to ask the whole um ask him about the whole story with um moses and Sephora where god wants to kill moses out.

01:12:33.88
Jeremy
Ah, oh yeah, Wow we're so we're still doing this. Okay yeah.

01:12:49.14
Jeremy
Um, yeah, well god tries to kill moses all of a sudden and it's like this abrupt verse out of Noah.

01:12:50.67
forestandtrees
Familiar with this story. You heard? yeah that that seems that seems right just because when at one point you said god doesn't care about circumcision. This seems to be 1 of the cases where god very much cares about it. Um, but again I suppose we're we're going with your hermeneutic of throw the old test out none. None of that stuff. Matters. yeah yeah I know yeah, we're were're.

01:13:07.85
Jeremy
Ah, according to how right according to how they understood it now throwing it out were we're submitting it to the person of Jesus Jeff like like we do every week.

01:13:25.40
forestandtrees
Slicing this question off and we're we're laying it at the feet of Jesus and we're hoping that god will be satisfied. Yeah, that's I know that's that I feel like that's kind of a cultural shift in.

01:13:29.35
Jeremy
You didn't even bring up David and his foreskin journey collecting a few for his father in law.

01:13:43.51
forestandtrees
Christian Meme culture ah I feel like when art are he still connected. Okay I got just the notifications that we're disconnected I think we're good. Um I just I remember in bible college like the story of Elijah and the bears I feel like was everyone's favorite. Go to like. Ludicrous bible story to laugh about and more recently I feel like it's the David collecting the 4 skins is everyone's favorite. Ah bible started to make memes about. But yeah I yeah I think I got all my questions and and all my circumcision jokes out of my system. It was.

01:14:07.53
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

01:14:17.90
Jeremy
Who we we did it.

01:14:21.56
forestandtrees
Was a delightful discussion. That's all it's ah, any other any closing words for us jeremy.

01:14:29.79
Jeremy
I just want you to be a true jew and practice true circumcision. Jeff you see the change of heart.

01:14:37.11
forestandtrees
Okay, true circumcision. You got a change of art. Yeah, my merit is changing um every day or every week when we do this show all right? perfect? well.

01:14:46.16
Jeremy
They're perfect then we're doing it.

01:14:52.50
forestandtrees
Appreciate everyone bearing with us and listening this far and thanks for your reviews and your follows on social media as well. You know if you want to not not that we need your adoration. But if you want to give us a review and give us some love and and tell all your friends about the show. We do appreciate it. And we will be in chapter three next week