Friends, Romans, Theobros, Lend us your ears! Paul saved the worst chapter for first? Jeremy and Jef discuss the relationship between Christianity and Judaism, General Revelation, where does an Atheist get their morality from and the dreaded Clobber passage where Paul shares some thoughts on homosexuality.
Topics
What is the Good news for Jews today?
Is general revelation enough to reveal God?
Where does your morality come from?
Is gay sex sinful in the eyes of God?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
Friends, Romans, Theobros, Lend us your ears! Paul saved the worst chapter for first? Jeremy and Jef discuss the relationship between Christianity and Judaism, General Revelation, where does an Atheist get their morality from and the dreaded Clobber passage where Paul shares some thoughts on homosexuality.
Topics
What is the Good news for Jews today?
Is general revelation enough to reveal God?
Where does your morality come from?
Is gay sex sinful in the eyes of God?
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
00:00.00
Jeremy
All right? It is that time romance chapter one. We're here at the force in the trees I'm Jeremy joined by always with my friend. Jeff.
00:09.52
forestandtrees
Friends Romans Theobros lend us your ears.
00:16.48
Jeremy
Um, you're appealing to the Theo Bros this this episode huh.
00:19.20
forestandtrees
Yeah, this both the Theo Bros and the friends. So both sides of the spectrum.
00:24.10
Jeremy
Shout out to all of our Theo Bros who are who are part of this and if they're listening to this episode I suspect it's not out of love. But maybe to figure out.
00:28.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, they're going to love this episode I can already tell.
00:42.39
Jeremy
How big of heretics we are but I don't know maybe maybe they'll maybe maybe they'll like where we go with this? maybe not. We'll find out well because today we're gonna dive into the deep end. We're gonna discuss whether the gospel.
00:44.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, let's let's see how deep down the hair sea hole. We can go.
01:00.25
Jeremy
Is good news for jews we're gonna ask why god judges us for not knowing when god doesn't fully show up. We're gonna explore where morality comes from and yes, chapter one Iss gonna force us to consider whether gay sex is as bad as we've heard. So before we get into these questions. Jeff I want to just set the stage give us a little tone here because I want to remind us as we did so often in the book of hebrews that the bible is about Jesus and Paul's going to remind us of this right out of the gate romans chapter one. Verses 2 and 3 god promised this good news long ago through his prophets and the holy scriptures and the good news is about his son Amen and amen.
01:52.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's a very ah hebrews esque sentiment there right? saying this whole all this old testament stuff. It was all pointing to Jesus yeah, very good at I see where you're going with that.
02:02.51
Jeremy
You see you see ah the theme that I'm pulling on here just just back back and forth all all the time. But Jeff we've got some verses that don't sound like good news here. So you're gonna you're gonna help us understand what what is we got some complications.
02:09.43
forestandtrees
Yeah, totally I think yeah.
02:21.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, why? suppose? Yeah, what you're saying about the the old testament prophets. Ah it speaks to my first question so we're going get get past all of the greetings and stuff like that and move to verse 16 of chapter one for I'm not ashamed of the good news for. About Christ. It is the power of god at work saving everyone who believes the jew first and also the gentile. So I just feel like we have to talk about the whole like differentiation between jews and gentiles because it's a major theme in romans. Ah Paul has often been called like the. The minister to the gentiles like bringing opening salvation up to the gentiles for the first time. So I realize there were exceptions. Um, and I think it's it's interesting from our modern day perspective because ah judaism has become such a minority in in 2023 ah, the stats I check said christianity makes up roughly 30% of the global population and judaism is at point 2% so that's one fifth of 1% of the population. So you know very different state I'm not sure what the population of of jews globally was ah during the time of romans. But anyway it's it's just interesting to think about um I don't it doesn't seem novel to us. You know Jeremay and I were. We're both gentiles right? We're both non-jewish people. Um, and it seems that you think how is what does christianity mean to a jewish person today. Ah, that's.
03:54.46
forestandtrees
Paul is presenting it as good news like it's it's this new thing. Um, but of course christianity has also been credited with ah a history of anti-semitism anti-semitism. Did not begin with christianity but it is I would say it's it's certainly a contributing factor. Historically. And it it makes it seem like kind of a tough sell for my perspective of what would you say as a as a christian today is the good news for a practicing jewish person.
04:25.39
Jeremy
What's interesting. You bring up the you know the history of Paul in particular you read through the Gospels. You know you go kind of like follow the story before Paul and it's all jewish focused. You know everything Jesus was doing was very much jewish focused. And then Paul's the one that really kicks in the high gear for the gentiles and then you know it it kind of opens up and the story unfolds. But I think it's really easy to see if you were to go from the gospels. How is this good news for jews because that's Jesus is repeatedly like I have come you know for for the jews and like that's very obvious. But you do have a shift here and then obviously history has played out as you mentioned so what is the good news. We'll just start first. Okay, so according to romans one. What is the good news to anybody verse three I began with that. The good news is about his son. Okay, so the the good news to Paul is Jesus. So that's what he's doing so then what what good news could this be right to a jew and especially a modern day Jew who he would say that's usually marked by someone who doesn't follow Jesus or doesn't submit their life to Jesus unless they're a messianic jew. But I think that's probably. A minority of a minority that it's not really what your question is about I would suggest that the good news for the jews today is that you don't need to keep waiting for your messiah. It's literally.
05:45.20
Jeremy
A huge part of judaism today is this idea of and messiah is going to come make things right? It is this constant perpetual waiting year after year and you know I've had a chance to take multiple trips to you know what? we consider the holy land today and and be in Israel and talk with. Ah, modern day jews and you almost underestimate how much this is a part of their religion. How much this idea of waiting waiting waiting where you know who's the messiah gonna be and the good news is like he he came like you don't like the wait is over but I'll see you. That's obviously not It's not good news to them because they're like no, that's not it and so here's the analogy I came up with it would be like if a single person really wants to get married like so badly wants to get married and then you come to the single person and you say I have good news for you. Your soulmate exists and they're like yes. That is great news I I've been you know longing for the soul ma and then you say I've even better news. You already know the person and they're like I already already know them and they say yeah, it's so and so and then you tell them a name and they go no not that person. No no, that's your soulmate like no, no, no. Not not. You know, not him not her like that would be kind of the equivalent of you know you're suggesting hey what you're looking for. You've already found but from their point of view. They would say that's not what we're looking for and you know to be candid that they're looking for a political leader and someone who's gonna.
07:18.57
Jeremy
You know, bring Israel back into fame back into power redeem the land you know, very much ah Israel and judaism is very much tied to the idea of the land which continues to play out obviously today but I think that's that's ironically the good news. From my point of view. But again you could say well to a jew they still would go. Yeah I don't I don't want to marry that person. What's interesting is one of the things throughout judaism and throughout the old testament in particular which again a Christian would call it the old testament a Jew would call it the the hebrew bible. Is this theme and we've we've hit on this a little bit but this theme that that god blessed israel in order to be a blessing to the rest of the world and you know you you see this like in genesis twelve three says I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt all the families on earth will be blessed through you. This is the theme you see all throughout the old the old testament now I remember ah having a chance to talk to a rabbi in Israel and I asked in our group asked this rabbi this question like hey what does it mean for you as a modern day jew to carry that out because. You know this is this is genesis. So this is still jews would would claim this text as well. They're they're not obviously gonna claim the new testament the way we would. But this is that idea that they have like how are you gonna be blessed to be blessing and I was really curious because I don't I don't pick that up when I meet.
08:50.18
Jeremy
Jews today of this this overwhelming sense of we've got to. We've got to bless the world like that's not obvious to me how they so I was really curious how he was going to answer it and his answer shocked me was that Israel develops technology and makes the world better and everybody else benefits from that. And I remember like oh that is just not in my mind. How I would ever interpret that verse but coming from you know a modern day jews like yeah, that's how we bless the world. So I think you know ah modern day. Judaism is very insular in the sense of they're not trying to convert a bunch of people. They're not trying to. I don't think they're trying to bring you know the world to the idea of converting someone is is way more of a Christian concept than you know a jewish idea so it's it's an interesting. You know it's kind of a conundrum where I would say it is I still think it is good news and yet I also acknowledge if you don't want that messiah then it's It's not good news because Jesus didn't fit what a lot of them are looking for.
00:00.25
forestandtrees
Okay, so that's an interesting response. It reminds me of when Harry Met Sally which is a kind of a classic romantic comedy about a man and a woman who are friends and they're like trying all these different dating relationships out and then spoiler alert at the end they they end up together. It was like oh it was it was my friend the whole time. So just to say that that reminded me of that and then also when you were talking about um jews developing all this technology I suppose christians have somewhat of a similar responses certain types of christians when they talk about like Judeochristian values created like western society and that's why you know the development of. Western civilization is is thanks to judeo christianian values. Um I I mean maybe you talk about this a little bit but I guess like the the main part of my question was just like how do you deal with the the sensitivity of that of like um, you know I think christians as you said like they want to convert. Other people to their religion. But I just I worry that it can be It can be insensitive, um, just given given the history of anti-semitism and the way that um christianity is you know is this new religion. That's that's claiming hey your religion is irrelevant or you have missed this. Perspective so we need to correct you and show you that you know that like how it would yeah I feel like it could you'd be in danger of becoming insensitive especially to someone who has been preached to before right? like like I'm guessing. You're not going to be the first one to say like oh hey, stop waiting for the messiah because you missed it. It was Jesus all along.
01:37.26
forestandtrees
I Mean you know obviously a Jewish person we would be better to speak on that issue than me. But I wonder if you have any thoughts on having a ah different level of sensitivity than other kinds of evangelism with that.
01:51.50
Jeremy
What we talked about before I don't have ah an overarching need to convert everybody and so you know if I was talking to a Jew I wouldn't have this insane pressure of you. You have to change who you are and believe what I believe I think what I would want to do. With someone if they're you know jewish just like anyone else is I would want to show them who I've experienced in the person of Jesus and why that has fundamentally changed my life and that's no different if you're jewish or if and you're an atheist or you know if you're a muslim like I would I would still I would point to Jesus as the the best. The best that I've ever seen the best that I've got and if you decide you don't want Jesus like okay, it's like I'm not going to force it or on anybody. But I I wouldn't I wouldn't fail to say that is to me, you know what? I think is is.
02:33.19
forestandtrees
Um.
02:42.44
Jeremy
The most true and the most beautiful thing you know we've we've ever seen is the person of Jesus and so ah, even when that might get a little lost in translation with someone who goes well I don't think he is who you think he is um, let's say yeah I totally understand that and you know acknowledge that. Historically the Jews have you know, experienced a lot of heartache and a lot of ostracism and you know absolutely would would be sensitive to that and it's just complicated because you know now. Ah today in this in american evangelicalism we almost. It's like part of christianity to support israel and we we often add these kind of weird theologies to it. Um, when I I don't think that's necessarily what what we find in the new testament of you know this is this is what it really means and then that gets you know into modern day you know. Tensions with palestinians and how they are treated and how they are ostracized. Um you know and and by Israel and you know the large reason they're able to do that is because of american support and so it's just it's one of those very complicated and if you go you know to Israel. And you see it firsthand you realize holy cow there's a lot going on here but I would I don't think judaism is unique in that sense of there's lots of people who don't choose Jesus for a variety of reasons and I would say you know you you have no longer your decided Jesus was who you thought he was and so you know I don't see that any really any different.
04:14.43
Jeremy
Um I don't think you're offended when I talk about Jesus because I'm not trying to shove. You know my view of Jesus onto you and that to be the same thing is I think we have to learn to love each other in disagreement and you know if I really believe that Jesus is as beautiful of of you know a revelation of god as I think. Then ultimately I'm going to give you a chance to try to see that and not try to force it on you or convince you of it which I think would be a more insecure position. Yes.
04:43.28
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I appreciate that just kind of a less pushy um less you know? yeah evangelistic I mean ah evangelizing but in a more conversational way a less less pushy way that makes sense to me I Guess another thing that ah.
04:54.83
Jeremy
Um, yeah.
04:58.65
forestandtrees
Jews and christians potentially have in common is this is the idea of waiting like when you said earlier. Ah, they're still waiting for their messiah if as far as they understand it hasn't happened yet christians still waiting for the return of Jesus um, both in a similar position of when's it going to come is.
05:14.27
Jeremy
Um, right it is yeah it is.
05:17.29
forestandtrees
Is your camera like flashing on and off from your perspective. Okay, yeah, ah is like a loose connection or something or yes because the flash is really quickly is my camera going out at all from your perspective.
05:24.69
Jeremy
What I can't I can't see what it's saying. It's just flashing some error message at me.
05:35.25
Jeremy
No, um I think I I think it set me to a different input somehow when you rebooted it. Ah.
05:36.27
forestandtrees
Okay.
05:42.40
forestandtrees
Okay, okay, can you go into call settings or me or do I need to stop recording for that.
05:49.88
Jeremy
Let me see if I can switch it on the fly.
05:57.42
Jeremy
Like I I can't click on call settings. It won't actually pull anything up.
06:01.61
forestandtrees
Yeah I know know that I'm looking at might as not like me I when you you need to not be recording for that. Okay, so I'll stop the recording. Okay.
06:06.63
Jeremy
You want want to yeah, end this and then we can.
00:02.98
forestandtrees
All right? Well speaking of evangelism. The good news is according to verse 19 you might even not, you might not even need to evangelize perhaps nature itself is the ultimate evangelist. You know I'm saying so I'm going to read ah verse nineteen and twenty here.
00:16.39
Jeremy
Ooh I like that.
00:19.52
forestandtrees
They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them forever since the world was created people have seen the Earth and sky through everything God made so they can clearly see his invisible qualities his eternal power in divine nature so they have no excuse for not knowing God all right? So I had. To flag this verse even though I feel like we we have talked about this before just the classic question of well what? what about people who've never heard the gospel people who are born into a different religion. Um, are just you know we're just not exposed to the bible or or the gospel in any way. But we've talked about this before but but I had just flag this first because this is the Verse people always go to whenever you start asking those kinds of questions. Um, so here it is. It's this idea of general revelation and I'll say I understand the argument of like let's say you're just in a society. You've never heard of. The bible have you never heard of christianity or maybe even ever heard of religion in in any sense I could see how you could just observe the natural world and say that oh there must be some kind of creator like a God must have created this. It. It does seem to like not really align with. Other Christian values of as I've said before God seems to be very particular about he wants you to worship the correct God and not worship like Pagan gods even in Um, what later in this chapter in Verse Twenty three it talks about kind of the the idolatry of the Roman people of.
01:51.43
forestandtrees
Worshipping other gods and stuff like that and I could see someone who has is exposed to general revelation this way who's like ok, there must be like a god of the sea and a god of the sky or there must be just some general creator god but you could get that from the natural world. But there's no way you would get specifically. Yahweh who sent his son Jesus and all of the specific tenets of christianity and ah as Roman says here god reveals himself with his invisible qualities right? So that speaks to the understanding of of the christian god he doesn't reveal himself physically. Have to kind of go on the feels a little bit so my question is how can god judge someone for coming up with the wrong picture of god or even no god at all if he's not going to reveal himself fully.
02:43.36
Jeremy
That's a good question I'm gonna start by actually agreeing with you and and going against this argument because you know some people. Some christians will say well, it's so it's so blatantly obvious you know creation is so like how could you not and I think that's not fair I think it's not fair to assume that level of clarity and if you are you know you probably have a low intellect and none you know you don't you don't recognize. But complexity to be to be as kind as I can say that there's an author named Pete Enz he's a bible scholar and author I like he he says this and I think this is this makes it like the conversation more fair. He says our creation is a cosmic curve ball that challenges the notions of god we are familiar with. Rather than confirming them basically saying you get into this. This is a christian you know professor you get into this and it's.
00:00.12
Jeremy
So I think that's a really good question I think sometimes christians can be a little unfair where you know we say things like well it's so obvious just look at a sunset and god should make perfect sense. You know and I think that's a little arrogant to imply that someone. Should be able to just deduce all the wonders of god from creation. So I want to I want to read a quote that I think levels the playing field a little bit is gonna seem to argue against what I'm about to say but I'm gonna throw you a bone here this is from pe ends. He's a biblical scholar. He he is a Jesus follower so might be confusing as I get into this. He says this our creation is a cosmic curveball that challenges the notions of god we are familiar with rather than confirming them and it's great. This quote is about romans one. So he's saying rather than just assume of course it all should make sense. You start studying things and it's not always clear and some of the time you're like wait. What does what does that mean about god then he says this if we hope to Echo Paul's words today we need a creator god who out matches. The expansive dynamic creation a god who outmysteries the mystery I love this because what he's saying is so often the view of Jesus we end up creating the view of god is so little and then you look at creation and creation seems so complicated so fascinating.
01:35.23
Jeremy
Um, been reading about quantum physics lately have you have you done much study on quantum physics Jeff yes.
01:38.49
forestandtrees
Not not since we had a question on the podcast about what's the origin of the universe. But.
01:46.00
Jeremy
Ah, it is you want to get your literal head to hurt I mean like your brain starts hurting and I'm just reading this trying to understand how on Earth is this a science. It is like science fiction but it's it's real. You know.
01:48.88
forestandtrees
Yeah.
02:03.63
Jeremy
Oh now I think we gotta make some room for the mystery and I do think we need a bigger view of God than we often argue to make sense of how complicated creation is. There's a couple words that I want to set out here that I think are helpful that put some of these ideas into perspective one is the word.
02:03.78
forestandtrees
Um.
02:23.12
Jeremy
Pantheism now pantheism is the idea that god is all that exists in creation. In other words god is everything so you see this with some religions in the world and truly just how some people seem to think about god so then you see a beautiful sunset god is the sunset. In pantheism you see a beautiful mountain god is the mountain in pantheism I personally would say I don't think that's a Christian way of understanding creation I think there's something a better option. It's called pan n theism adds an e n.
02:44.60
forestandtrees
Um.
03:00.27
Jeremy
Which is the belief that god is separate from all that exists. But god is in. That's the extra e n he is in all things and likewise that all things exist within god so rather than saying god is the sunset I would say god is in the sunset. So it is not the same as god god is not literally the sunset. So I think this helps us get away from a lot of early historical religions where it's like I'm worshiping the water and I'm worshiping the sun and I'm worship. You know because those are not god. But god is in those things so I do think god reveals who god is using all of creation. But god is still separate than all those things now let's look at Paul's argument here. Paul's argument as I understand it is that everyone has some sense of god through creation. And I would say at that basic level I have found that to be true and I'm curious if if you would agree I think fundamentally most people have some sense of god and you said you know don't perfectly understand like the trinity or atonement like yeah for sure. But like some sense of god so then if that is true and if we could agree on that premise. It's essentially what are you doing with what you know to whatever degree ah or sense of god you understand or you intu it. What do you How are you responding to that and I think you see this the fact that you know most cultures around the world.
04:32.86
Jeremy
Would say that murder is a bad thing. Why like well you know you could go to a country that has a very different view of god or a country that would say we're you know an atheist country or whatever and they would all have that sense of morality. There's a lot of overlapping sense of morality you find throughout history throughout cultures. I would attribute to to romans one that there is some imprint in creation that we go. This doesn't feel right? You know murder feels wrong murder seems bad and I would say we we get that from a sense of god even if we call it a whole bunch of different things now to your specific question. How can god say why don't you have this figured out. You know if if god's not gonna reveal what's going on I would say that creation isn't the best revelation of god Jesus is the best revelation of god so I would say creation does fall short at some point of fully teaching us. All that god is even though I think you can see god in creation. But Jesus is the full revelation. We've talked about this in our hebrew series a lot jesus is the full revelation. The exact representation of god so once you've seen Jesus I think god can say I have shown you what I'm like. I've given you a chance to see me and you know after Jesus we can say oh yeah, we we've had a chance to see that and respond to that now I want to bring this full circle with a question for you because this all plays out and christians lose their minds on this I know that might be hard for you to imagine so I made an argument in a sermon recently.
06:08.89
Jeremy
That has really bothered a bunch of christians and I thought this was like ah a a Youtube short you know a little a short reel so it's less than a minute and I thought how how how much offense can you have in less than a minute I mean how many people can be mad a lot is the answer I made the argument that you don't need god. To be a good person and then I referenced numerous atheists I know as an obvious example that proves that point like that they would not share my view of god but I would look at them and say there's a lot of goodness or you want to use the word morality in them in how they live so I post this clip on. Number different things on Instagram I get like almost 22000 views just me saying that you don't need god to be good thank thank you um now got me a lot of well. What's funny is I got a lot of followers.
06:55.39
forestandtrees
Hey way to go by the way. Good job going viral.
07:06.56
Jeremy
Who obviously agreed with me and then just a lot of negative comments who are the people who didn't agree with me So the the new followers didn't really come to my aid. They just followed me. So thank you I appreciate that but the haters they led their hate one one person said cult of the day that was his full response to that.
07:11.86
forestandtrees
Um.
07:26.18
Jeremy
Okay, that's the call today that one person I'm gonna call Karen for obvious reasons ah said this comment and I thought of you Jeff if they are moral. They can't be an atheist. Ask them where morality comes from boom game set.
07:43.50
forestandtrees
Mic drop.
07:45.95
Jeremy
Match you lose Jeff you lose Karen has made it clear. So I thought hey I'll take your advice I happen to be talking to someone. You don't you don't call yourself an atheist but I I would consider you an atheist for all practical purposes at least enough to answer this question for us right.
07:59.68
forestandtrees
Yeah.
08:04.81
Jeremy
So Jeff where does your morality come from Karen wants to know.
08:10.78
forestandtrees
Yeah that's a great question Jeremy actually um, as fate would have it. It's not just internet trolls who are asking this question because I was recently home for the holidays and I was was visiting some old friends and an old friend of mine. Um, who I was talking to about the podcast and how my my faith has changed and. And blah blah. blah so this was news to him that I wasn't a christian anymore and he asked me this exact. He asked me this exact same question right? So this is not an internet troll this is a smart person who you know I like him he likes me. We're friends. Um and he had the exact he was totally surprised and he said oh wow, that's.
08:30.51
Jeremy
Oh.
08:46.00
forestandtrees
I'm surprised to hear that because I always thought of you as a really moral person like what's the deal and then he his follow up question was so you know if there's no god what is right and wrong like his his go to was what about bestiality like why? Why is that wrong that that his first follow up question. Yeah.
08:57.50
Jeremy
Wow, That's where he went with it which should should tell you something but I don't know I don't know what it.
09:04.93
forestandtrees
But so so I wish I had chapter and verse all I'll just say just for the record exodus 1922 and Leviticus 2015 you know that's that's why you're not supposed to have sex with animals. You know, otherwise free game. Um, ok so where where does morality come from ah is it. Too self-congratulatory and highfaluten to say I'm striving to do good for its own sake. So I remember years ago when I was a christian the first time someone pointed out to me that if you're following Jesus. It's in some ways. It's a lower form of morality because. Jesus is always talking about your heavenly reward and divine punishment for doing right and wrong and at first I was kind of surprised to hear that I was like no no no jesus is at the height of morality and then like I thought about it and I I started noticing that more and more as I was reading the teachings of Jesus he is constantly talking about you should do good and you should not. Tell anyone else that you're doing good but you'll be you'll have treasure in heaven. You'll be rewarded later and vice versa if you do bad, you'll be punished later. Um, so want. Ah so I think the christians certainly can like be good people. Obviously there's there's all kinds of um examples of christians who've like formed. Hospitals and orphanages and done all kinds of charitable work. You know that stuff is all great and ah but I wonder if if we can get past that as a society so here here's um, like 1 of my favorite quotes ever of Jesus where he's talking about you should do good so in Matthew Twenty five thirty five
10:41.13
forestandtrees
Talking about like caring for the the poor the needy he says for I was hungry and you fed me I was thirsty. You gave me a drink I was a stranger you invited me into your home I was naked. You gave me clothing I was sick and you cared for me I was in prison you visited me I tell you the truth what when you did it for the one of the least of these you did it for me. So beautiful passage. Love that quote from Jesus I think about it all the time when I think about like how can I be like helping other people in this world. So I you know I I think that's a really important. Saying of Jesus and I think that's a great principle and it's deeply meaningful for people of course if I think for some people it's important to try to help the poor help their fellow man because they believe that they're secretly blessing Jesus by doing these charitable works. But I think if you can help the poor.
11:30.73
Jeremy
O.
11:35.50
forestandtrees
Just because you care about the poor person just because you care about your fellow man I think potentially that's even better all right? So just to just ah to take myself off my high horse a little bit I want to acknowledge that I'm not sure if you could ever be a truly pure righteous. Person right? like it like let's say I don't have Jesus anymore and I want to help people is it possible even to truly help someone just to do good for its own sake or is there always that secret motive of like when I'm helping someone else I'm secretly just doing it to make myself feel good about myself. You know I think that's kind of an open question and I'm not totally sure about but I think just doing good for its own sake is an ideal that we can all strive for.
12:22.62
Jeremy
I like that? yeah I think you I've read I'm trying to think of which book I read I don't know if it was Hitchens or who but that that atheist argument of you know, the only reason you're doing good is because you are gonna get some reward from your god.
12:24.42
forestandtrees
Oh thank you.
12:40.71
Jeremy
Then that's you know that's ah that's a flawed reason to do good which I think is ah actually a very compelling argument as to why? Why are we doing good and you know is is there something just inherently in that. So when you look at romans one and Paul's argument of creation revealing some sense of god.
12:41.20
forestandtrees
Um.
12:59.26
Jeremy
And your journey now. Do you say? yeah, you do have some sense of a creator or Nope that's not real. That's you know a figment of your imagination.
13:09.93
forestandtrees
So I mean I think um I'd definitely still respond to kind of the cosmological argument in terms of like you know how? how can you get something out of nothing if the universe began to exist. There must be some outside Force. You know that like that still makes sense to me of like how do you have nature without some kind of creator. Even the fine tuning argument to some extent though I know you could possibly explain that with just and a long enough period of time with with random particles mashing together. So yeah, yeah I don't know I. I Guess I would stand behind the idea of yeah, it's possible to make the argument that there must be some kind of creator. There must be some kind of God It seems like almost a total non sequitur to say that God has to be the God of the bible and also I'm not sure like how much that has to do with morality.
13:58.70
Jeremy
Ah.
14:04.90
forestandtrees
You know I mean like you know if if the natural world exists that means there must be some kind of creator. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the creator like wants us to not murder each other or or do other immoral acts right.
14:16.55
Jeremy
I think that's what you know what? What is it pointing you to is the is the next step of that question. So if if we find some sense of a creator in creation. What does the creator look like you know and that's where your view of god matters immensely because if you view god as you know. 1 thing then you're going to respond accordingly and if god's totally different than that then you're going to you know change and so if god looks like Jesus then you should respond to a Jesus looking god and figure out what what makes sense you know, but I think I don't think we spend enough time on our views of god we just think I either. Ah. Believe god exists or I don't you know it's like okay, well just because you're acknowledging something. What is what is it like what do you actually think god looks like and you know describe it and put words to it and you know can you mentally picture god or is god an abstract idea to you. You know when I think about god I think about the face of Jesus like you know. And you've teased me on this I always say the person of Jesus right? because Jesus isn't an idea. It's a person. It's it's you know it's something more relational than just a historical figure to me and so I think it? Yeah I think it matters immensely. But I do think it's helpful for for Karen I doubt she's.
15:17.42
forestandtrees
Um.
15:33.48
Jeremy
Gonna listen to the podcast but that that you do have a sense of morality and you you have you've shattered that fourth wall. Jeff.
15:43.20
forestandtrees
Ah, well thank you? Um, actually can I circle back because I forgot to mention something in my response. But I think it it ties into what you're seeing with the person of Jesus right? So with the Matthew 25 passage. Um, as I said like he's making a personal right? If you're if you're just helping. Your fellow man. You're helping the stranger among you, you're actually helping the person of Jesus right? like I think that sentiment is great. But if you read that in context Jesus is actually talking about the final judgment. He's saying like yeah if you did treat the poor. Well then you're welcome into heaven. But if you failed to be kind to other people. Then you're cast into hell. So how would you respond to that idea of of Jesus using this carrot and stick um, incentive to try to get people to behave.
16:27.46
Jeremy
Yeah, and I think I think what you do matters you know so I would definitely say if you if you decide to live your life neglecting the needy and the vulnerable around you that that matters to Jesus and it you know matters to all the people. Around you and it matters to who you become and or don't become or I would say is I think so I have no problem with Jesus and justice you know I think this is where people with my theology get stereotyped in. You know incorrectly. Well if you don't believe in literal hell then there can be no sense of justice like no, no, no, it's just always a redemptive justice. it's not ah you know it's not a destructive justice. So I do think the sheep and goats I do think there is a sense of like hey we're we're going to have to make these things right? And if you're constantly. Neglecting the needy around you that is that is an affront on Jesus like literally god takes it very personal. It's not hey these's these people you should have cared about it's like no, it's me and you you neglected me because you would not love them which for god to put you know Jesus to put himself in the neediest. Role is just truly. That's that's a boggling analogy for for god to say that right? like I am the very least of the least and that's how you know you treat me but I do think there's ah use the word you want to use a reckoning justice ah day of judgment sure I'm fine with all of that.
17:45.82
forestandtrees
Um.
17:58.90
Jeremy
And I do think that Jesus will make that right I do not think it's going to be punitive I think it will be redemptive both for the people that were wronged and the people doing the wrong you know and I think that's where I would say yeah I think there is going to be something I just think ultimately it doesn't change the nature of god god didn't suddenly become punitive.
18:06.85
forestandtrees
Um.
18:18.72
Jeremy
That But I do think there will be a sense of accountability and I think that's the part that that again that where when I get stereotype that that Nuance goes out the window and it's like well then you don't care about Justice I Literally saw someone argue on my comments their day and I'm like I don't have the energy to argue this but like you. You're giving no nuance to any argument and so yeah, okay.
18:41.59
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that's good I do think um because that's kind of an argument people will make forgot right of like just the natural human craving for Justice right? because the world is an unfair place and it seems like.. There must be some kind of final judgment or there must be some kind of afterlife that will make all things right? because if there's no afterlife then then life is unfair and I guess I guess for me where I'm at is I'm kind of thinking like yeah that that'd be nice if if there's an afterlife and you know the. The Wicked will be punished or or like redeemed not punished eternally because I don't believe that's right either. But yeah I Just not sure that that's true or if that's more of the product of wishful thinking you know.
19:22.38
Jeremy
Well and I I I love that that I believe that so I understand why it can be why it could be seen as wishful thinking because I I'm grateful that I believe that Jesus will make things right eventually and if you convince me that wasn't true.
19:26.43
forestandtrees
But.
19:36.83
forestandtrees
Um.
19:40.41
Jeremy
I think I would I would despair a lot more and have ah a much more like what does any of it matter. Yeah it. It's like the world sucks Pain's real. Suffering's real and then you die and great if you were lucky enough to suffer less than others I mean it's you know it's just like.
19:47.85
forestandtrees
Yeah.
19:58.75
Jeremy
That would be a very hard I think worldview and you know maybe I'm maybe I'm just not tough enough to accept it Jeff but I I do believe Jesus will make all things right? In fact, someone on Twitter their day asked do like a little. You know response like hey how would you describe heaven in 1 word. So I stared at that for a second I'm like all right? What word comes to my mind and I wrote back I said redemption like that's the way I would describe heaven of like a redemption of all things all that is broken is made right? and that to me and that includes.
20:27.35
forestandtrees
Um.
20:34.10
Jeremy
Oppressors and the oppressed you know where if you've been oppressed I think Jesus is going to make it up to you in profound ways and if you were the oppressor I think Jesus is Goingnna figure out a way to make that right with you and you know redeem you through that somehow and it may not be a pleasant I talk about this may not be a pleasant experience. But. I don't think it's punitive I think it's for your ultimate good. But I yeah I do think without that. It's a very different worldview.
20:54.00
forestandtrees
Um.
21:03.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, good thoughts. All right? Let's so you ready for our final assessment of um, you know, speaking about speaking out good and evil and in the wickedness of of this world all right? So I.
21:09.60
Jeremy
Ah I think we I think we're good for the day. Let's maybe just wrap it up here. We go.
21:21.24
forestandtrees
I mean let me just say for the record. Ah, even though it's like it's my job to like poke holes in the bible or whatever I did not choose this book I I didn't want to have to talk about this because it's you know in what in 1 way, it's like it's the most boring and most obvious objection in our current day at least to christianity and it's. I don't even know if I have anything new to say about it. But it's it's the homosexuality issue I don't know if you're aware of this Jeremy but christianity has not always had a great relationship with the gays and I think.
21:52.79
Jeremy
Really, he.
21:56.72
forestandtrees
And I think ah the Apostle Paul in the book of romans chapter one has something to say about it. So I'll read this passage here. Yeah so this is Romans 27 that is why god abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural weight of.
22:00.74
Jeremy
Think I think his words may have contributed to that a bit. Unfortunately.
00:00.00
forestandtrees
So this is romans one starting in verse 26 that is why god abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulge in sex with each other and the men instead of having normal sexual relations with women burned with lust for each other. Mended shameful things with other men and as a result of this sin they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. So as I alluded to before lots of baggage with this passage and just with the the bible and christianity's relationship with homosexuality. Ah, large I'll I'll say for me, you know, going back to the grumpy uncle Paul thing this was something when I was a christian there was a part of me that was always kind of holding out hope for well. Okay, so Jesus doesn't say anything explicitly about homosexuality. You know there's there's stuff in leviticus and. All the rest is just in new testament letters. So maybe Paul is is kind of like a victim of his time or a product of of his environment and that's why he has these opinions about homosexuality that that was the hope I was holding out you know as as a christian who wanted to be affirming was. You know may maybe this is a you know, lower view of scripture kind of thing like this is Paul's words not gods. But of course if you believe that all scriptures god breathe and inspired useful for teaching then you it it really complicates your view of what god thinks about homosexuality. So my question to you jeremy.
01:33.75
forestandtrees
Is gay sex a sin in the eyes of god.
01:36.36
Jeremy
Okay, buckle up. So first off I'm not going to fully tackle that question holistically because we don't have time for that and that that's so long. What.
00:03.00
Jeremy
All right? So 1 disclaimer I want to make is that this is obviously a gigantic subject and there's no way I could do justice to all of this Ah so what? I'm gonna do is offer some thoughts in particular on romans one and so well. Address this question as it pertains to romans one where this is not an exhaustive every verse of the bible. What it says about it. So with that of mind I would say this I think you know this is this is one of they're they're commonly called the clobber passages because how they get used I think this is. Probably the single strongest passage at least on a surface level against homosexuality in all of the bible. So this is the one that is the trickiest if you want to if you want to not say you know this is ah, an abomination. How how do we How do we wrestle with this one. So. Here's a few thoughts and we'll just see where this goes number one this is written in a greek culture where relationships were very different than they are today. Ah, the idea of homosexuality was not a concept like it is for us today as an identity as a thing. Um, in fact, it's worth noting that the word homosexual didn't even appear in bible translations until 1946 so this is not this is like a lot of modern concepts that we are layering on top of this so homosexual relationships existed in in the Greek Word in fact
01:35.13
Jeremy
In the Greek world. In fact, it was often preferred by a lot of people. They just didn't have the idea of I'm a homosexual or I'm gay the way that we often think about it today now. 1 of the things I was reading as I as I was preparing for this I was like wow that 14 out of the first. 15 Roman Emperors were what we would consider today as gay like that's shocking so you have this culture that is you know, very prevalent. But even then it's not gay in the way that we understand what it means to be gay today.
02:01.80
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
02:12.97
Jeremy
A lot of these Roman Greek relationships were you know where 1 person is above the other and it's a power dynamic a shift in power. So this is not a mutual consenting this is like 1 person has the control and is choosing a lesser person who does not have the control. And so a lot of the homosexual relationships were that where this is men with boys and stuff that gets weird. So it's not necessarily what we think of I think that we'd have to just acknowledge that and again there are other people that have written many books and you know explored that in jewish culture. Gay relationships were regarded as an abomination. So I do think that's worth acknowledging in that culture. But then you have this greek culture and this gentile culture that Paul's going into and I do wonder is Paul getting into a little bit of culture wars here. I was raised with this culture and now I'm in this culture and my culture is better than your culture and your culture is icky. You know and you know how much could Paul as a human even have pulled himself out of some of the cultural dynamics that would have been probably very difficult and you know if Paul is viewing it. As hey you know these heterosexual relationships are mutually consenting more than these homosexual relationships are that could also be a huge dynamic. He's trying to address here of if you're in a relationship where there's ah, an an imbalance of power. You know we would call that a a sexually abusive relationship today.
03:43.54
Jeremy
Is that really what Paul has in mind and and Paul is talking about. So I think all of that just worth kind of pausing a little bit and going. Yeah there's a lot going on here. So let's not be so quick to read that into our culture and assume this is exactly what it's referring to today which a lot of christians want to do. Now. Let's look at Paul's logics I think this is this is where it gets really interesting Paul implies that the immersion into that the sin is itself the punishment and I think this is very important god Paul sorry about god giving them over to deal with the consequences. Of their their choices. In fact, depending on which version you use. Ah some versions say that god gave them over 3 times in in this section the nlt that we're reading from says that god abandoned them to so god allowed them to gave him over to it and and I would say this is how I understand the wrath of god that the wrath of god is not. God up in heaven throwing a lightning bolt and smiting people. It is god removing god's goodness in our life and saying I'm gonna let you do what you want to do and I'm gonna let you deal with the consequences of that because you don't want me to be involved and so it's almost a non-coercive punishment as god removes. You know god's presence and our life and again this is what this is what Paul is saying in even verse 27 they suffered the penalty they deserved was he talking about. He's saying inherent in this lifestyle is the consequences of it and so to put it in terms of like Newton's third law of motion.
05:16.70
Jeremy
Every sin calls for an equal and opposite response. So if you do this sin you will have this consequence and the assumption here is that living this lifestyle will automatically destroy your life and this is the language Paul's using so we got to ask what in particular. Is Paul saying this about is he saying it about the act of gay sex or is he saying it about a an abusive sexual relationship a power you know imbalance like what is what is Paul actually talking about well let me ask it a different way and this is the way I've had to work through this. Let's let's take more of a modern day concept of what we would understand this put it into the tax and see if it works does the monogamous gay lifestyle necessarily prohibit the fruits of the spirit in someone's life. This is how I ask even if I like talk to pastors today I have to ask it this way does. Someone who's living a monogamous gay lifestyle does that necessarily by itself by definition prohibit them from the fruits of spirit because according to Paul's argument it should now in case, anyone's a little hazy on fruits of the spirit glaciians 27 23 but the holy spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives. Love joy peace patience kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness and self-control. So are those things naturally not able to happen if someone is in a gay relationship.
00:00.00
Jeremy
And so the question becomes does someone and think about a married gay couple does that marriage does that lifestyle inherently prohibit them from the holy spirit producing those things in their life from them looking like Jesus and in my experience. The answer is no. It does not prohibit that. So I think you'll take a step back and go. Okay, so if someone if what we understand today as a gay relationship doesn't produce what Paul is talking about in romans one is Paul talking about something different than what we think he's talking about and that's where I would say. I would have to argue yes because I don't what the logic Paul is saying doesn't seem to work for me as I apply it to what we think of as a gay committed relationship today now as I was reading this one of the scholars that I read had this line to say about romans one a purse this is William Hendrickson a person's sexual orientation. Whether heterosexual or homosexual is not the point at issue. What matters is what a person does with his sexuality which I say yes now if you think I'm cherry picking modern progressive liberal scholars William Hendrickson was born a 1900 and that's probably the only sentence I agree with him on this whole commentary Romans One so so he's acknowledging. Yeah, it's not It's really what you do with your sexuality and so I would say like this. Okay so we'll take the same logic Paul's using there is a natural penalty of sin for adultery.
01:35.14
Jeremy
It will mess up your life and the lives of those around you I have seen it play out and most people who have any experience without go. Yeah, there is a natural you know consequence of that I would say there tends to be a natural penalty of sin for polygamy and polyamory that those tend to. Produce negative consequences in people's lives and again I've seen that play out I think there can be a natural penalty of sin for making sex meaningless and devaluing it and I've seen that play out but I personally do not see a natural penalty of sin. For a committed gay couple and that is where I using the logic of romans won that Paul's argument I would say I do not think it applies to what we understand as a relationship today and the relationship that we understand as a gay relationship today might be a foreign concept to Paul because he might have been like. What are you talking about I haven't seen it like that I've seen it like this you know and he's addressing that now maybe that makes sense to our listeners. Maybe it doesn't that is the way I work through it keeping it to romans one keeping it to the argument paul is making. You go? Well yeah, but this is different a little bit than the way. The historic church has understood this or you know how of different people. So let me go back to 1 of the passages I've been obsessed with for the last year or so and I've said this before and this passage is so profound to me I'm going to probably say it numerous other times on this podcast. So just.
03:06.59
Jeremy
Get used to it and forgive me John 161213 something I keep going back to I keep thinking about Jesus says there's so much more I want to tell you but you can't bear it now when the spirit of truth comes he will guide you into all truth he will not speak on his own. But will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. So 2 fascinating things 1 being there was truth Jesus wanted to tell people that they weren't yet ready for and. If. We have the holy spirit the holy spirit will guide us into ideas and things that have not yet been the norm and so our relationship with god our relationship with the bible with faith should constantly be evolving and growing if we take Jesus literally here which I absolutely do. So then I ask can the spirit of truth guide us into a new understanding of this topic and you know to put it in science terms if the universe is still expanding which it is I think our views of god could keep expanding to and this gets back to p n's comment I said earlier of we need we need to a bigger mystery of god than the mysteries we find in our world and so I think the problem is we've stopped developing our theology of god and the mysteries of the world have increased and so god feels little by comparison. But I think that's because we've lost spiritual imagination to keep trusting the holy spirit to guide us into this now.
04:36.73
Jeremy
I'm gonna throw a curveball at you here. I'm gonna im gonna go catholic here for a moment and and bring in a couple popes because there's there's some interesting things happening and this is I'm not a catholic I have not necessarily say I would follow the pope but Pope Benedic Benedict the sixteenth said something that I think is truly a fascinating concept and that one sense in particular I want to unpack he said this in scripture older texts are reappropriated reinterpreted and read with new eyes in new context, they become scripture by being read anew. Evolving in continuity with their original sense tacitly corrected and given added depth and breadth of meaning then he says this this is a process in which the word he's referring to the the bible the scriptures gradually unfolds its inner potentialities. Already somehow present like seeds but needing the challenge of new situations, new experiences and new sufferings in order to open up that is such a rich metaphor that I think he's describing that scripture has these seeds in it. And the seeds are not yet fully grown but when you put them in a new situation in a new experience in a new suffering these seeds begin to open up and we begin to understand in deeper ways than we did what what was inherently in the text I suspect. That's what's going on the romans want.
06:11.95
Jeremy
There is something there. There's a seed there that actually allows us to move beyond where we've thought it's not the limiting factor that we thought it was and I think this conversation is happening just this week Pope Francis the current Pope criticized laws around the world. That criminalized homosexuality and he called him unjust saying that god loves all of his children just as they are and literally he called on catholic bishops who support the laws to welcome Lg btq people into the church and then he said this being homosexual isn't a crime. May a holy yeah, that's he's not saying. It's not a sin. He's not but again to understand this thing is moving in a direction where there are still countries around the world where this is viewed as a crime and now you have the pope being the one to say this is not a crime and I think that is a seed unfolding. And a new situation. it is it is starting to blossom in ways we haven't seen before and then finally I encourage I want to share a quote I heard this I think it was last week ah Andy Stanley is a pastor and again if you don't know Andy Stanley this is not a progressive pastor. This is a. Mainstream this is yeah he would be in the conservative camp. Okay, on most fronts this listen to what he said about this and I was so blown away by this comment. He said a gay person who still wants to attend church after the way the church has treated the gay community.
07:45.21
Jeremy
They have more faith than I do they have more faith than a lot of you. He's talking to his church a gay person who goes you know what? I might not be accepted here but I'm going to try it anyway. These is this have you ever done that as a straight person where do you go. Where you're not sure you're going to be accepted and you go over and over and over that is to me a seed beginning to open up. There are and again I don't think that's all the way where it could be by any stretch. But I think there is something new emerging and so. If we can look at the biggest clobber passage of them all which is romans one and we can follow Paul's logic and we can. We can at least open the door and say maybe he wasn't referencing what we think of when we read these words today. Maybe what he was referencing applies totally different because it doesn't work. If we put in our modern you know, homosexual committed relationship today. Maybe all of a sudden. We have some new freedom emerging and I would just say candidly. This is not what I was raised with this is not what I have believed for many years I am constantly practicing John 16 with this subject going Jesus keep refining me keep showing me new things keep helping me to see how this seed can grow and so you know if we come back to this topic in another podcast I might have a totally different way of even understanding it then but I would say as of this moment.
09:19.49
Jeremy
That's how far this seat has unfolded so I would say a committed monogamous you know, gay relationship I don't think applies to Roman one I don't think Paul is is giving a biblical universal mandate against gay sex I think he is talking about. There are types of sexual relationships. Inherently have a penalty with them I listed a number of them. Those are to be avoided because they will absolutely tear you down and if you're in a relationship like that or in something like that get out and acknowledge this is ripping my life of artist isn't healthy. But if you're not in that and you're going this is healthy. This is life giving. Let's have the courage to say maybe this isn't what Paul is talking about.
10:08.27
forestandtrees
Yeah that's good I mean lot a lot going on there. Um I too saw the Andy Stanley clip I saw that was making the rounds and I'm curious if there was any like policy change at all or if that was just like a statement of saying like. Hey gay people good for you. Thanks for coming to church like were there any changes in terms of like you can serve now or we're affirming now or anything like that. Um.
10:30.39
Jeremy
No to my knowledge. There weren't and you know that's where I felt a little bit bad for Andy is I think he got criticized on both and you know people conservatives saying how dare you you know say this about gay people that they have faith like you know, kind of. Kind of like Karen's question about like they can't have morality. They're gay. They're not you know and then he got people saying well this isn't far enough. You know you got to be welcoming and and so I think you know he he kind of got criticized on both ends I'm I'm not I'm not holding that up as the finish line I'm just saying to me that's an example of the seed beginning to emerge and blossom that.
10:49.86
forestandtrees
Oh.
10:59.80
forestandtrees
Sure sure.
11:07.53
Jeremy
I think is an encouraging sign.
11:08.93
forestandtrees
Yeah I don't know I'm still I'm still thinking about it and like like like I said I haven't really like looked into Andy Stanley's church specifically but I just feel like that that can be a problem with the church at large with the truth the whole trying to like love the center hate the sin. Kind of like phraseology like that where it's like no we we love you guys. It's not a sin to be gay. You know that's it. It almost feels like a bait and switch sometimes the way the church treats it when it'll say like it's not a sin to be gay. It's like okay, great. So I'm coming now but it is a sin to practice. You know, um, where yeah what you get it like this seems like what.
11:39.12
Jeremy
Right.
11:46.60
forestandtrees
What Paul is saying here and like again we're not, we're not really litigating like the the church at large because that's that's kind of a different topic than like what Paul is specifically saying here because it it seems to me that he is. He's specifically calling out later. He he has a list of all kinds of different sins and he has. Sometimes he uses vague words like when he says mended shameful things with other men. So that's very open to interpretation like what are these shameful things. He's talking about but specifically he says like man on man is unnatural woman on woman woman is not the correct way to do it and that's.
12:09.54
Jeremy
Right? right.
12:22.59
forestandtrees
Why it's a sin. Um, anyway, all all that to say I mean I Love everything you said about um, expanding our knowledge like growing in our empathy and our understanding of like maybe there were things that just the culture back then wasn't ready to be fully accepting and like. Maybe we're getting there. You know I I Guess it's a problem with the canonization of the bible right? like because we're stuck with Romans one I just feel like this This conversation is going to be I don't know if like stuck forever or just significantly slowed Because. You're always going to have people who can point back to the scriptures and say like well that's not what it says it clearly says that this is wrong. So Yeah I don't know if you have response to that.
13:06.36
Jeremy
Sure but I would I would say I I'm not negating Paul's argument which is there are sexual relationships that have a due penalty of sin within them I agree I totally agree and so I would say.
13:20.46
forestandtrees
Um.
13:23.13
Jeremy
Yeah, we we should as you know followers of Jesus as the church. However, you know we should be able to say. Yeah, if you're in that kind of relationship. It's not going to be lifegiving for you like you, you need to get out of it because it's it's going to. You know it's going to carry with it the due penalty of your sin sin always has a due penalty that comes with it. But if we acknowledge that hey there's this other kind of relationship and that was maybe not the norm back then but now it you know because of we're thousands of years later this is allowed to be the norm and it's not you know, characterized by sexual abuse or sexual imbalance of power then. We go? Yeah, there isn't an inherent penalty of sin with that and again I just know I know happy gay people who would say that their marriage has been life giving for them and they look at Paul's arm and go what penalty of sin like the only penalty of sin has been the reaction of the ways that we've been treated but like not. Anything you know, inherently in this relationship and that's where I think you know it's worth studying. History. It's worth studying Greek culture. It's worth studying. What was going on with the romans and these emperors you know and all that stuff and the fact that hey this this idea of homosexuality as we understand it is a. Fairly modern concept. Historically you know the way they understood it and I think all of that has to go into this and it goes it. It. It fits nicely when we make room for the spirit of god to say Jesus guide us into this How do we understand this better and again I'm not just missing anything I'm not just missing romans one I'm just missing.
14:57.33
forestandtrees
Mm.
14:57.90
Jeremy
And I'm I'm using it I'm literally using Paul's logic to go. Okay, how do I do that. But I also know Jesus has promised that I have a holy spirit that's gonna guide me into truth so I read Paul with the expectation of the holy spirit's gonna help me do that help me understand the actual argument paul's making is it gay sex and I don't think it is. And I would say I would point the spirit of god is the one that's helping me discern that and I don't I just like the image of these seeds growing in the text so romans one doesn't have to be scary if we if we mine it for the seed that's in the text that's going to continue to grow. There are damaging sexual relationships.
15:17.54
forestandtrees
Um.
15:36.50
Jeremy
Absolutely and you should avoid them absolutely but I don't think that all the ones that we think are are necessarily in that category.
15:45.58
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I mean I suppose the text doesn't really explicitly say that these are extramarital relationships but it's it's probably a pretty safe assumption. Would you agree with that that that's that's what Paul is talking about here right? So that's right.
15:57.76
Jeremy
Yes, because that was that was what's in that culture. Yeah, these were not marriages.
16:05.19
forestandtrees
So so as I was um, you know, thinking about this recording this episode of stuff I was trying to research like what we have where is the the passage that specifically says like sex outside of marriage is wrong. Also I know that's a totally different conversation. But I I assumed we would kind of go there within this conversation. It seems like it's not There's there's not really one like specific proof text. It's it's kind of an amalgamation of things and I would agree that generally it's a biblical principle that that you're you're not supposed to have sex outside of marriage. But I guess that's another thing that I would just question just generally of like is the fruit different. You know like i. Grew up always having people say like statistically you know you're more likely to divorce if you cohabitate if you have sex before marriage if. You don't wait for marriage and yeah I don't know it's someone as someone who was like brought up in a very conservative christian culture. Waited for marriage got married when I was super young right out of the bible college you know I I like lived that super conservative christian life and now as I'm like me you know now I'm in my early 30 s and I'm meeting friends my own age who are like wow it's so weird that you've been married for 10 years and I'm like. Yeah, that's Christian culture that anyway, just just not going to like what where is the fruit. You know these these people who have been living together and sleeping around throughout their twenty s they don't seem to have less like joy peace patience. They don't seem to have less fruit. Um and and you know.
17:34.65
forestandtrees
Gay people are s slipping around for that matter as well. So I'm just just something to say there about your your comment on the fruit I don't know if you have thoughts on that.
17:40.83
Jeremy
Well I think that's again that to me is a very tangible way of looking at it and then to you you know to go back to Romans One is there an inherent penalty of sin for that behavior and you know you you can measure that like hey has this lifestyle have have these decisions you've made.
17:53.61
forestandtrees
Um.
17:59.74
Jeremy
Major life better or major life worse and you know if the answer is it's made it better and here's how you know then I would say then it doesn't seem to fit romans one at least right? and again, there's the way you go. There's other texts but to keep Romans one. That's the argument paul is making.
18:14.45
forestandtrees
Um.
18:16.68
Jeremy
That there are these relationships that are inherently tied to these consequences and the due penalty you know and he's calling it out and I think he's calling out a very different culture than our culture and you know we just don't we Our sexuality isn't the same. You know as it was back then it was.
18:30.60
forestandtrees
Um.
18:35.86
Jeremy
Far more I would say far more abusive back then than collectively what is nor now again you can there's sexual abuse all over the place but that was way more of a norm to them than than it would be today.
18:48.32
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean but and of course like I don't think anyone would disagree that like abusive sexual relationships are bad right? and it.
18:57.57
Jeremy
But if you live in a culture where you know 14 out of 15 emperors practice that and assuming they're not practicing what we think of as a healthy gay relationship. This is an abusive gay relationship then in a sense. He's he's speaking truth to power in romans one like.
19:08.54
forestandtrees
M.
19:15.33
Jeremy
You have a penalty attached to this. He's calling it out even though they're the powerful ones doing it like you guys are the ones abusing and you you have a due penalty. You know that's almost a really radical way of understanding Romans one in the context in which he's writing it.
19:30.86
forestandtrees
Yeah, just just not in so many words though because he's not He's not saying anything about the power imbalance is he.
19:40.36
Jeremy
He's not but that it's like saying I don't officials't have to acknowledge water If you you don't have to acknowledge what your culture is is normative in your culture. So if I'm you know you and I are communicating based on norms in our culture today. We don't have to name every norm.
19:43.86
forestandtrees
Okay.
19:51.98
forestandtrees
Um.
19:56.92
Jeremy
Every person listening knows the norms and that's where when you study history. You always have to go back to what was normative for them that they're not saying that we would assume falsely because we don't have those same norms and that's why I think you know so much of the bible. The things that are normal to them are different than what's normal to us.
19:57.20
forestandtrees
Oh.
20:15.58
Jeremy
So Paul's writing in a very different culture of you know norms than we are. We want to take romans one and just copy paste plant it into today Two thousand years later and say yeah, it applies exactly the same way and I'm saying he is in a totally different culture. A totally different culture so when he's saying these things. The early church would have understood them in that culture. They're not thinking 2000 years from now in America when you know it's legal to be married but they're not that's not how any of them are thinking of this conversation. So biblical study is you start with what did it mean to them before you figure out what it means to us and that's you know. Seminary one ah 1 and so that's what I'm trying to do here say what did it mean to them in their culture and yeah, he he doesn't have to spell that out because that would have been obvious to them they they knew the roman emperor they knew the way the the greeks were you know? and so if he's writing to this gentile audience. That's what's normal to them and then they read.
21:02.46
forestandtrees
Okay, sure.
21:12.96
Jeremy
Words like this like what do you mean? There's a consequence for this like what you know I mean it or like someone powerful going. What do you mean is a due penalty for this like it can be a very challenging sense and again, that's not in the text I'm just using all its logic to try to make sense of it.
21:22.83
forestandtrees
I know I'm just as you're talking I'm I'm just reading I'm looking for where does he say the power imbalances. The bad thing not the not right right see.
21:31.88
Jeremy
He doesn't but that's where I'm saying if what I think of as a a power balanced relationship doesn't fit what he's saying what I don't think it does then I have to go is is he referencing something different. Which would be an imbalanced power relationship and it's not explicitly in the text. That's my theory on it. But I think that is a compelling argument to to read it.
21:49.48
forestandtrees
1 yeah.
22:00.50
forestandtrees
It it is. It's a it's a compelling argument. yeah ah yeah I don't I don't know where where to go from here I I mean I think that that's that's good that's good news certainly to say that homosexuality in it in and of itself is not wrong. It's. Abusive homosexuality is wrong. You know I don't know there so many things that I wish Paul would have said to clarify a little bit here or even I wish he it would have been so nice if he would have said also like men can have abusive relationships with women or women can have abusive relationship pool with men that would make the text more clear but you know we.
22:32.58
Jeremy
Correct.
22:37.12
forestandtrees
Would that it were so simple I suppose.
22:37.22
Jeremy
I also don't think Paul had any concept that two thousand years later we'd be sitting on a podcast nitpicking his word choice in a letter. He wrote to a to a church in rome you know what? I mean like I just think you know he's he's dealing with things probably having no idea.
22:49.28
forestandtrees
Um.
22:51.57
forestandtrees
It's true. It's so true.
22:57.90
Jeremy
Hey these words are going to be you know, poured over for centuries to come like that would probably blow his mind if you like do you realize how how much this is going to get quoted Well it makes you wonder how much and this is where it gets into your view of scriptures and what it means.
23:04.79
forestandtrees
Yeah, maybe you could have chosen your words a little bit more carefully if you would have known.
23:15.19
Jeremy
Inspired and all that but like how much was Paul looking toward the future you know in perpetuity versus dealing with something in his time and not necessarily thinking through all the ways. This could be applied in cultures and. Generations ago of which he would have no concept of.
23:34.55
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah I mean I agree with that and it also just the whole concept of like which letters of the new testament we have versus which ones we don't have you know like to to me not right I used to believe all scripture was God breathe and like. The the canon is there for a reason you know like now it seems like there are letters that we just we happen to have the you know copies of copies of and there are letters that are lost to history and so we're just you know we're stuck with the ones that that we have ah I don't I don't know what. Your thoughts about canonization I don't know that's another topic. Yeah.
24:07.78
Jeremy
I think I think we've tackled enough. But yeah I mean there's and there's another missing corinthian letter. They think I mean you, that's what's funny is like you know people. The bible is clear. It's like how how much have you studied it. You get it. You get deep into this stuff and it's just complicated and it's I go back to. Pete ends quote. There's mystery there and so you have to have a god that can out mystery the challenges that we're wrestling with and I think you have to keep developing and growing that view of god otherwise the mystery far out seed or outpaces your view of god.
24:46.89
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, Ah I mean I I like mystery as much as the next person sometimes I feel like the pete ends of the world like use mystery as a euphemism for like lack of clarity when you know with a passage like this. Maybe it would have been more helpful for there to be less mystery and more Clarity. You know I mean?? Yeah yeah, and then of course we wouldn't We wouldn't have a podcast if if the bible was clear.
25:05.15
Jeremy
I Guess to that about a lot of lot of verses but we wouldn't have a podcast and let's go back to Quantum physics like there's mystery in Quantum Physics is that annoying or is it intriguing and beautiful. You know what? I mean.
25:21.33
forestandtrees
Yeah.
25:24.35
Jeremy
Like they they they're stuff they literally can't explain like 1 of the weirdest parts and I I don't even how this written out so I'll probably butcher this but when you like it's like a photon and you measure the photon or you watch the photon it behaves differently than if you don't measure it like.
25:43.59
forestandtrees
Um.
25:43.98
Jeremy
What and they have a phrase for this I forget what it is I mean there's like that makes no sense like things behave differently if they're being watched like I mean there's just like there's mystery there and to me that intrigues me to go wow what is going on with quantum physics. That's bizarre. And I can also apply that to god and go the the beautiful picture of Jesus can still emerge from these texts that are written in a different culture in a different time and I can still use these as seeds to help me better understand you know so to me, it's like. I don't think mystery has to be a cop out I'll go back up pete a little bit I think it can. It can be an acknowledgement of something beautiful and if we're curious then there's there's just always more to keep keep exploring.
26:24.63
forestandtrees
Okay.
26:36.31
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's I mean I agree with that. There's there's more to keep exploring the universe is a mysterious place and scripture and sorry what? Oh yeah, yeah I mean I'm I'm trying to try to back you up here. So.
26:42.24
Jeremy
Look at you using mystery said look at you using mystery there.
26:53.79
Jeremy
While.
26:54.20
forestandtrees
Wrap this up on a positive note. Ah yeah, you know you know I mean but like I said in the previous episode Paul Paul has some things to say and you know I think we can we can wrestle with it. Right? That's that's a good christian word right? We we wrestle with the text wrestle with the mystery. Yeah well I mean it's it's been great wrestling with you Jeremy yeah, yeah, me too. Hopefully we haven't done anything.
27:11.10
Jeremy
We wrestle with the mystery.
27:22.67
Jeremy
I'm tired.
27:27.74
forestandtrees
Shameful and abominable with our wrestling here. But ah yeah I I love the conversation I appreciate it I I guess we got through it. Ah sorry for all of the um, you know if if we came in and now we had some technical difficulties recording this one so I'll just all cop to that right now. But ah, yeah, love you guys! Thank you for listening and we'll we'll talk to about chapter two next week okay bye
27:53.29
Jeremy
Like I need a ah recovery beer.