Hebrews 13 - Concluding Words

It’s the final episode on the book of Hebrews! Jeremy and Jef ask each other some final questions, and reflect on the podcast experience so far.

Topics
Kindness towards those in prison
Who is “The Person of Jesus?”
Can you follow Jesus outside the church?
Why is Christian media so awful?

We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at ​​forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook

Transcript

00:00.20
Jeremy
Well friends, we've arrived at our destination. It's been a long journey. We've been going through chapter after chapter through the book of hebrews and here we are at that glorious finish line hebrews. Chapter 13 you're listening to the force in the trees and one final time in the book of Hebrews. My name is Jeremy and as always I'm joined by my friend. Jeff.

00:32.41
forestandtrees
Um, tale as old as time ancient history barely even friends then somebody sends us in castor Link. You.

00:53.99
forestandtrees
Um, we'll take it verse by verse address discrepancies hebrews chapter one we have just begun Jeremy. Forest and the trees.

01:13.57
Jeremy
Wow.

01:21.27
Jeremy
Um, oh man that ah, that's that's pretty good I was not prepared for that.

01:21.36
forestandtrees
Yeah I've been I've been sitting on that for weeks now I'm playing the long game.

01:29.37
Jeremy
You have a little little pink guitar. You bought out that was that was quite was quite the performance. Well done sir.

01:38.69
forestandtrees
Thank you? Thanks Yeah, it's ah it's the season finale I had to pull out all the stops as they say.

01:43.97
Jeremy
And you did I mean you did you really? you really did you? You wrote a song you know if the whole graphic design thing doesn't work out and you know you don't want to go back to christianity and work at a church again. Then maybe you know maybe just sing right? songs.

01:58.99
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I mean melody based on building the beast copyright Walt Disney pictures all rights reserved, but you know.

02:01.86
Jeremy
Ah, little catchy tunes for people.

02:08.22
Jeremy
You think we're on Disney's radar with our podcast igers back. He might be he might be angry I did just see like tracking me tip or something you know.

02:12.75
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean Iger he's is he that? Yeah, he's back is he that busy is he that busy with parks and stuff. Well, anyway, it's so.

02:27.45
Jeremy
Maybe it's in the Disney pins they track you you bring the pins back.

02:32.17
forestandtrees
Yeah, oh yeah, all right? sorry sorry to disrail us with ah such a long such a long grading.

02:35.88
Jeremy
Wow, where are we? what's happening. Well we're gonna do things a little bit different today friends where're ah we're gonna be a little less formal less traditional of Jeff's usually 5 questions. We're gonna just. Kind of each lob of question at each other and discussed a few things. We've gotten some feedback from you guys. We're going to discuss a little bit of that and you know we'll just see where it goes. We'll see if any other songs break out or what happens. So Jeff, let's just let's just get into it where are we going.

03:08.49
forestandtrees
Yeah, we've got just some concluding words. That's the the heading of the chapter is I'm concluding words so I feel like that's the apt for us kind of wrapping up the book of hebrews with this podcast episode just just wanted to comment on verses 2 and three I thought were really. Great pieces of scripture. Don't forget to show hospitality to strangers for some who have done this have entertained angels without realizing it remember remember those in prison as if you were there yourself remember also those being mistreated as if you felt their pain in your own bodies. So callback to I I believe was episode one where we talked about angels and you referenced this first from chapter 13 of you might be entertaining angels so call back there and I just want to say this is something that I really appreciate about christianity in general the teachings throughout the new testament to care for the poor. The sick the downtrodden particularly those in prison I feel like that's that's somewhat of a counterintuitive thought like to to have compassion and care about people in prison and I think it's ah it's a very beautiful thing so want to give full credit to the author of hebrews and. Many other new testament writers for this particular um ethic thumbs up.

04:28.80
Jeremy
Well yeah I totally agree. The prison part is unique and overlooked even today but also just the you know remember those being mistreated is another giant 1 people being mistreated all throughout history and those are not normally the people.

04:40.81
forestandtrees
Um.

04:46.22
Jeremy
That get the attention or the focus or you know any of that and so I think to say say it people in prison who are again easy to forget and the people who are mistreated who are easy to overlook is is pretty beautiful and I would I would say you know we've we've talked a lot throughout the podcast of what are things that continue to draw me in. You know you? even though I can acknowledge a lot of the junk of christianity. This is the stuff that just draws me in you know of I love that I love I love you know ah a focus on things that the world doesn't want to focus on and I think that would make the world better and more beautiful. And it is funny. You bring up the angel line. We got a number of comments and you know feedback from people leading up to our final episode as you know we were kind of soliciting is anything people wanted us to cover and I got I got a question sent to me Jeff about this verse actually um.

05:42.82
forestandtrees
Oh yeah.

05:45.44
Jeremy
I didn't I didn't share this question with you in advance I wanted to get your your your hot take on the spot. But here's the question I got is Jeff secretly an angel that I am showing hospitality to by patiently walking through questions with.

06:00.55
forestandtrees
Ah, exposed. Yeah undercover angel you got me this is yeah this is the part where I.

06:02.18
Jeremy
So what do you say to that Jeff say it on the record.

06:10.36
forestandtrees
Peel off the rubber mask and reveal that my body is actually covered with eyeballs and I have 6 wings and what can I say you got me folks. Yep I'm an angel.

06:19.66
Jeremy
So you are an angel all right now we know I mean I've been entertaining Angels this whole up this old podcast I'm entertained there. You go.

06:29.14
forestandtrees
Am I not entertained. Oh that's good I'm glad glad one of us is ah okay, anything else to say about angels in the downtrodden. All right? Great. So I've got question regarding. Verse 8 and 9 and I guess this will be my last kind of critical question for the whole book of hebrews in this entire season. So let's let's make this one count all right? Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever.

06:54.22
Jeremy
Yes.

07:04.37
forestandtrees
So do not be attracted by strange new ideas. So I think we've talked on this show throughout the season about a lot of but you know depending on who you ask possibly strange and new ideas. We've talked a lot about progressive revelation and evolving views of god and morality. And religious diversity and different interpretations of god and jesus and what he's about stuff like that I really love the quote that you shared last week on the podcast by James Cohen black theology believes the spirit of the authentic gospel is often better expressed by heretics. And by the orthodox tradition. Um I yeah, really resonate with that the idea of challenging the status quo you've got this famous quote. Well behaved women seldom make history yet the new testament in verses like this is constantly warning against false teachers. People who are saying that they're preaching in the name of Jesus but are actually preaching some sort of distorted Gospel and I've noticed throughout the show. You continually say the person of Jesus right? As opposed to. Ah, you know other people might say like I'm looking for the historical jesus or ah someone like me might say I'm interested in the teachings of Jesus but I don't know about the divinity of Jesus you keep going back to the person of Jesus that seems to be your your framework for this and it made me think of a.

08:35.44
forestandtrees
Comment I made on a Youtube video from the the youtubers named genetically modified skeptic. Great Youtube channel I'm a big fan and I made this comment on 1 of his videos where he was talking about. He's an atheist. He's talking about but what I still call myself a follower of Jesus he came down ultimately saying no for a couple reasons. And this comment that I made possibly has been seen by more people than we'll ever listen to this podcast who knows it got 244 replies which I'm not going to read the all of those but here's the comment I made 1 issue I found with claiming to be a follower of Jesus is everyone has their own idea. Of what Jesus is about because Jesus is thought to be the perfect model for humanity. Everyone graphs their own personal values onto him was Jesus a pacifist or did he sometimes advocate violence was jesus liberal or conservative it depends on who you ask all right? So here's my question for you? Jeremy. Who is the person of Jesus and how do you know you have the right one.

09:41.31
Jeremy
It's a great question I've been asked this question numerous times I get I actually get asked it a lot in different settings I'm in when I you know do a q and a or I'm talking about a lesser known theology of something and you know. Explaining how I how I arrive at that theology trying to reconcile it with you know the person of Jesus to to use the phrase that evidently I enjoy using a lot which I I certainly do I think your Youtube comment is striking on something that is true it it is true that Jesus. Can look very different depending on who is talking about him or who is explaining him and I think regardless of where you know a person's at we can acknowledge that so I can acknowledge that as a christian that I can walk into this church or that church and probably even anticipate. The view of Jesus that they're going to talk about and they're going to portray and I think someone who's not a Christian would say they have have had equal experiences with people talking about all different. You know, kinds of Jesus so there is something there where you know Jesus does almost become this placeholder for. All that we would say is good and again we can have different ideas of what that means and then we can kind of just place them on to Jesus so I think we have to be aware of that and it's one of those you know, kind of be aware of your presuppositions aware that we tend to do this that any of us.

11:12.85
Jeremy
Are going to claim anything of Jesus and I would say even if you don't believe in Jesus you, you probably do this to Jesus too right? You you're gonna portray him in a certain way that may be the way you want to portray him and it may even be because that's the easy version for you to say that you don't agree with or you don't like or you know I mean so even on the opposite end I think we all. Can perray Jesus this way. There's a quote from a guy named Sam Chan that I think is is helpful in how I would answer your question. He says this to follow Jesus means that we can't separate what Jesus is saying from what Jesus is doing and the way that he is doing it. To follow Jesus is as much or maybe even more about feet as it is about ears and eyes. So I think that that takes us a step back and go okay, it's not just 1 aspect and so again I think you can look at what did Jesus do. As you know recorded in the gospels you can look at what did Jesus teach again as recorded in the gospels you can look at what do we think Jesus is doing today as we experience them like and so you have all these different aspects and I think you have to holistically work to make them all make sense together. And I think there are people who do a better job of this and people who do a worse job of this and so I would say if you're trying to figure out how do I know who the person of Jesus is start with the bible like start there because you know if you want to say you know Jesus advocates for.

12:47.21
Jeremy
You know I don't know for killing children that would be really easy to refute and go no, that's you know there's nothing in the text there you know something so something outlandish we we would be able to say no, that's not what Jesus you know teaches and and we can go to that so I would say start with the bible. The problem is a lot of people. Um. End with the bible and you know so it gets back to you know one of the the debates I often get in is you know, did jesus support violence in particular gun ownership and you know a lot of american christians want their guns and want want to consider that a god-given right? well. It can be a us given right? but that's not good enough because we want it to be a god given right? which means we need Jesus to get on board with it and usually the verse that gets quoted is you know I think it's in Luke where Jesus says go and buy a sword sell your clo can buy a sword and see Jesus wants me to buy a gun I just saw. On social media literally today pastor you saying should you have a gun. He said no, you shouldn't have a gun and then roger that he's like you should have multiple guns. He's like a small gun a medium gun a big gun you know and this is like a pastor of a church and I'm like ah okay and again.

13:56.72
forestandtrees
Awesome.

13:59.61
Jeremy
Yeah that's yeah, that's just not not the thing but that's prevalent out there and you have many pastors who would teach that I believe that and again they they would argue the bible Jesus said sell you know your your your cloak and go by a sword I would argue using the bible as well. That if you keep reading that story. The reason Jesus said that is so that Peter would use the sword and Jesus would disarm him and you know was one of the early church fathers tertulian who basically said when Jesus disarmed Peter he disarmed all christians all of us and that was an early church argument that. That when Jesus said put away your sword that was like a moment to teach. We're not going to do it this way and Jesus needed at least 1 of them to have a sword to pull that illustration off now again, the problem with that is both of those camps would use the bible to make that argument. So Jesus in. That example could be pro gunns. Or anti-guns depending on which part of those verses you wanted to focus on and how you choose to interpret it so I'd say start with the bible. Don't end there then the second thing I would say is experience Jesus in the moment in the modern day and so that's where. You know I I draw on my own experiences with Jesus. It's not just this guy I read about that lived a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away. It's a real person who ah the way I see it is literally even when I read the bible the the person of Jesus is meeting me here in the moment as I'm reading about him.

15:31.56
Jeremy
Right? So he's meeting me in this moment and I pray as if god is real and god is here and god is listening and it matters and so that would be my second aspect is okay, how have I experienced you what have I experienced Jesus doing then the third one I would say. Is grow in community with others and this can look like a whole bunch of things. This does not have to look like an institutional church gathering it can but it doesn't have to be but basically where you you join other people who also are following Jesus and we say let's follow Jesus together and let's help each other. Do it. And so if I have some real bizarre thing I'm understanding about Jesus that you look at and go that's clearly not of Jesus are we in community enough where you could say to me hey that's kind of wild. You know I don't I don't think that makes sense. Um I think there'd be some element of that because I think there's times we get it wrong or we have a cultural lens and you need someone to go? Yeah I don't I don't think like the way you know I grew up just to use the analogy. We've been using I grew up owning guns and had multiple guns of different sizes I would have been a real good christian based on that.

16:36.49
forestandtrees
Yeah.

16:39.80
Jeremy
Pastor's video and I had ah someone in my life challenge me on it and you know basically lovingly say hey I think you've missed Jesus's take on this one and explored it with me and I changed my mind and I thought you're right? your understanding of Jesus made more sense. To me as I studied it and thought about it and prayed about it then minded and so I think that's what community does as well is when you when you're off you you give space for someone else to do that and so does this negate. The. I'm still gonna make you know some version of a subjective version of Jesus. No, it doesn't you still always will have that all of us will do that but it can lessen it and in theory we could get closer to what Jesus is actually like because I do think Jesus is like something whether or not, you know we've got. Hundred percent of that figured out or 90% of that figured out or 70% of that figured out Jesus is something so the closer we can get to who Jesus really is I would say it matters and then to use a verse in this chapter because like you know I got to I got to stick with chapter 13 a little bit at least ah verse 15 says.

17:48.71
forestandtrees
Um.

17:51.40
Jeremy
Therefore let us offer through Jesus a continual sacrifice of praise to god proclaiming our allegiance to his name and it's an interesting phrase. Our allegiance to his name again. We talk about it's not you know christianity is not an allegiance to a church It's not an allegiance to a doctrine It's not an allegiance to a history or a club. It's an allegiance to the person of Jesus and you know verse 15 is that's our allegiance so I can look at so much of christianity today that I think is absolute bogus garbage not of god. And yeah I can still have an allegiance to the name of Jesus that helps me navigate. You know some of the things that some of the complexes that you have pointed out week after week that I go Yeah yeah, I hear you so ah I don't know Jeff it. I can't get away from the subjective nature I don't think any of us can we're subjective people with opinions I think we can be mindful of that and I think those 3 things start with the bible experience Jesus in the moment and then grow and commute with others I think that helps us go on a path at least to figuring out. Who Jesus really is what do you think yeah.

19:04.63
forestandtrees
Yeah, appreciate that answer. And yeah I guess I apologize for kind of feeling like I'm asking the same question over and over again of like you know you say you follow Jesus but all these other people follow Jesus and everyone seems to have slightly different yet like obviously we've we've talked about this before.

19:20.45
Jeremy
Sure.

19:22.72
forestandtrees
Um, I mean I think the community aspect is interesting because of course it makes me think about like you you have even full communities that have different interpretations with different Christian denominations and I guess I would yeah I would certainly say most of the differences are pretty benign. Um, but some of the differences. Can make a real difference for people right? Especially if you know whether you talk about whether you're going to be affirming or not affirming whether women can preach and and serve in the church or not things like that. You know those are examples of like full on communities where you know. Either 1 person was deceived with a false gospel and they got a whole bandwagon of people to join them or I don't know you know just it's some form of group think I guess right? or or maybe like god is is just open and he's okay with this. Diversity of interpretation of what he's like.

20:18.41
Jeremy
Well I think any gathering and again it does not to be christian any club any group any anything that has a collective sense of identity and you could have this in atheist circles right? of hey this is what we all accept about the universe or whatever I mean whatever or are we this is all what we. Equally say we are against or we don't agree with any sense of shared identity. You're going to have this tension where how how much diversity of thought is included in that group and you know you brought up a few that I think are are tricky and you know a lot of the conversations I get in today with christians are. Christians trying to figure out how do I go to church where I don't agree with Xy and z but I can't find a church that you know captures all those and I would even put myself in that category like there's no church that I would say I'm I'm fully in line with the way they do all of this. Um, and I used to make a joke many years ago I would say you know the only time you're going to find a church where you agree with everything is if you're the lead pastor of that church and I made that joke until I became a lead pastor and then I realized that I had restrictions and I had obligations and I had people you know.

21:26.39
forestandtrees
Um.

21:36.20
Jeremy
Um, the the checks and balances on so I couldn't even make the church all that I wanted it to be even in that role and I just really like oh it, it never is and so I think the challenge for people is can you find a community where you can grow and it's healthy and it encourages you acknowledging. There may be.

21:40.72
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

21:56.50
Jeremy
Ah, few things you got I don't see eye to eye with them on this and then you end up realizing like what are the deal breakers for you, you know, like for me if a church said ah you know we we really don't believe women can have any leadership role or any significance you know in in. Influence at all I don't think that would be like okay I disagree with you but I'm fine like that would be for me I think a real a real deal breaker I was just like yeah I'm probably gonna find different community then you know that is going to include women and again there are churches where that's they they won't. You know they and they'll adamantly be against it and so I think you've got to find out and there's handfuls of those kind of issues that you go which ones matter the most to you which ones are deal breakers and which ones can you say Yeah I disagree with that one I would say in theory at least and I tried to do this when I was leading a church in theory the more diverse of thought. You have in your church I would say the healthier it is now again I would make people uncomfortable with that because well how far will it go you know different understandings of Jesus or that you know and so we we literally had to figure out like what are the essentials of the faith. What does it mean to be a historic orthodox christian and then. Like rally around those and then everything else becomes space for interpretation and you know that still doesn't mean you're going to love that community. But I want to be around people. It's why why we're doing this podcast I want to be around people that don't always agree with me.

23:29.68
Jeremy
And I can't imagine a more boring existence than constantly engaging in discussions with people who only affirm and agree everything you believe and what a way never to grow I mean truly just to say I want to be stunted for the rest of my life in complacency and comfort. And I don't know about your experience I I think a lot of people are choosing that these days and you know social media pours gasoline on that fire I'm only gonna follow the people I like I don't I don't do you have this tension like I have attention often in social media where I'll follow someone who will say something that will really irk me. And my knee jerk reaction is I Want to unfollow you and then I had this like wrestling of okay but is it good for me to hear that point of view and wrestle. What you know what? I mean like I don't Know. Do you do you struggle with this.

24:21.39
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, of course yeah the the whole social media flame wars echo chamber problem that we're all dealing with yeah I mean you know something that you've probably learned about me from from doing this podcast as I spend way too much time on Youtube.

24:28.72
Jeremy
And now.

24:39.56
forestandtrees
And I watch a lot of videos of like atheists just bashing christians and I also watch a lot of like Christian content and like from different people like I went down this this rabbit hole of watching this guy explain calvinism with all these videos and his you know, just the view of like yeah god just. Creates people intended for destruction and he was explaining. You know why? this is not a bad thing and basically you know it comes down to like yeah tough rocks like god's in charge he gets to make the rules and I was so yeah I was angry I wanted to like write along. Um. Comment ah fighting him on it and then decided ah you know what? it's it's not worth it right? This is this is like feeding the beast of the the anger and the culture wars yeah, that were that we're all just ah, stuck in.

25:22.92
Jeremy
Right.

25:33.75
forestandtrees
At the moment. Yeah.

25:33.99
Jeremy
But I would say too I think you know what you think about when you think about God matters more than most ideas matter and you know if someone has a I don't know the right word to use here incomplete or inaccurate.

25:46.42
forestandtrees
Um.

25:52.61
Jeremy
Understanding of god I think you're gonna that's going to lead you to a lot of other um, bad conclusions and actions in your life where I would say I would really hope someone would have the chance to see god as I see god which I would say has you know transformed who I am. And I would want everyone to see that version of god of like this is beautiful, but there's a number of reasons why people don't see that version or see the version I'm talking about and have a very different reaction to it. You know than I do and you go I don't know. But again I I would think ah. Shouldn't we spend quite a bit of time conversing with others learning about in challenging our view of god you know to to figure out if it is as accurate as we think it is or maybe if we've missed something or you know, especially those of us who grew up in the faith. You know that's that's a gift in one sense obviously of you know I had parents who taught me this stuff and raised me to know Jesus as a kid and so I have experiences with Jesus as a kid. It can also be a liability if I just take things that I was taught and never understand them and never put the work in you know to figure out why does that make sense to me and. A lot of christians do that you know it's like why I don't I was taught that and I believeed that my whole life and you know was going back and forth on I think it was Twitter this week with someone who's talking about. You know the flex that we off to do of I've never changed my mind. You know I believe the same thing same.

27:24.21
forestandtrees
The.

27:25.93
Jeremy
The same Christian I was twenty years ago like that's not the flex. You think it is I mean and I see it all the time like my views haven't changed at all. It's like you're not growing and you know it came from a quote I had shared from a jjacobs the author and I think you'd read his book too. But. You know this idea of he talked about if he had coffee with ah a younger version of himself that they would get along. Okay, but they'd both walk out of Starbucks thinking that guy's kind of delusional and I so resonated with that because you know you take me today having coffee with me ten years ago and it would be a funny conversation where we would not we. We would both think the other person's delusional for sure for sure for sure and I would say I'm happy about that because I'd say I'm I'm growing and I'm not the same person I used to be and I have lots of different views and there are things I did before that I wouldn't do anymore. You know.

28:12.17
forestandtrees
Um.

28:22.65
Jeremy
Ah, but a lot of people that's not the goal and so I think when it comes to who Jesus is that's gotta be the goal is that you keep learning and growing and understanding more. It cannot be I figured out Jesus when I was in third grade and I've held on to it since like that's not a flex.

28:39.18
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I mean I I agree with that I'm I'm all for learning and growing and self-development. Hopefully obviously like I have my biases in places where I'm I don't know maybe set in my ways. And and stuck in like what I think is right? Um, Yeah I don't know it's It's interesting. Ah like because when you bring up the different camps and I'm thinking about the the conservative evangelicals in their their political opinions that I've you know I've gotten very animated about but I'm going to talk about that in. And your question for me. So Do you want to move on to that one? yeah.

29:17.10
Jeremy
Well thank you for that transitional thought Jeff okay so I I had a question for you and again you know you you feel that some of your questions are repetitive to me I feel like some of my your questions are repetitive to you but I'm just constantly curious how that the material we're going through.

29:30.50
forestandtrees
Um.

29:35.15
Jeremy
You know affects you in real time cause again I don't know what this is like from your vantage point and so that to me is the benefit of this podcast is I get to learn like in real Time. What is your reaction to this and you know you seem you seem open to keep humoring me and my my questions I keep asking you personal questions So on our concluding thoughts I got another. Personal question I think we need like music and for future books where I can like personal time and like music place in the background.. What do you think.

30:06.61
forestandtrees
I'm clicking it. Okay, how does this this came stock with with Zencastr so should be royalty free.

30:08.59
Jeremy
Oh oh everybody sit down listen in time to get personal. Ah I was getting creepy. Okay, ah thank you though for humoring me I like it.

30:15.39
forestandtrees
Do you want it to be playing while you're reading it or okay.

30:25.65
Jeremy
So there's a couple verses in chapter 13 that I think are like profoundly beautiful to me and almost are like easy to just like read over and miss. But I stared at them and ah i. Don't think it's exaggerated like I got emotional yesterday like staring at these verses and I'm not really I'm much more you talk about change person I'm much more emotional these days than I ever used to be so that's part of the things I've changed. Um, but I would just say I don't always have that reaction I'm I'm a very logical person. However, I stared at a few of these verses and it just something just grabbed me and I was like just like lost in thought on this idea and so I thought I want to know how this strikes Jeff like I I had my reaction to it I'm really curious what your reactions do so here's the verses just chapter 13 verses 12 through 14 um I just think are profoundly beautiful. So here's what I say so also Jesus suffered and died outside the city gates to make his people holy by means of his own blood. So let us go out to him outside the camp and bear the disgrace he bore for this world is not our permanent home. We are looking forward to a home yet to come that what I found so just beautiful about that is this emphasis that the author is putting.

31:59.27
Jeremy
On Jesus Died outside you know the the city of Jerusalem like you know and and now it's it's been expanded. So if you go there today. This is not the case but in that time you would crucify people outside the city walls that is like you were you were cast aside, you're not in the city anymore. You know we we do our dirty work out there so to speak and this emphasis verse. Well he died outside the city gates like distress. He didn't die here. He didn't die with us. He didn't die around. You know the the comforts of family and friends. No no, he died outside and then verse 13 this it then gets personal to you and I right. So let us go out to him outside the camp and I just thought like it's an invitation not just to follow Jesus but to follow Jesus where Jesus went to to go to that place and then if we do that the last part of verse 13 says. And bear the disgrace he bore like there's gonna be an element of that that most people aren't going to want and again this goes back to even what you said the beginning of this chapter. You know why are we talking about? you know those in prison and those mistreated because that's where Jesus went. That's where Jesus goes. And that's the heart of Jesus and that's when we follow Jesus. We go outside that camp and so I just I don't know I was just staring at those 2 verses 12 and 13 in particular hadn't so hadn't seen them the way I was seeing them this week really just with that focus on where this all took place so as I was thinking about this for you.

33:33.34
Jeremy
Obviously you have explained you don't feel like you fit into evangelicalism anymore and I would say you know given a lot of what you shared. It's a logical conclusion right? like I understand how you got there I understand you know, even if I don't see it the way you see it I can understand your point of view and you explain it very well like okay this is. Why you're there. So here's my real personal question to you is thinking about this idea of Jesus outside the camp. Do you think that you could ever find a way to follow Jesus outside the camp meaning that maybe you aren't following within the city within the normal you know. But maybe you could be drawn to this idea of where Jesus actually is outside the camp you go to him and I don't know does that even seem like a possibility to you or would you say Jeremy this is 1 more pipe dream you have of you know somehow you you making sense of this.

34:32.41
forestandtrees
that's that's a great question. Yeah um I appreciate your reading of this passage because when the first time I read this passage just chapter 14 or verse 14 sticks out to me if this world's not my home and just to me immediately makes me think of ah this is why. Evangelicals? Don't believe in climate change because they think I'm just going to leave the planet so which we already talked about that several episodes ago. So thank you for having a more nuanced and more interesting interpretation of this passage. So okay, great. Great question since you brought up. The whole evangelical camp I feel like this was another thing that I was wanting to avoid talking about on this podcast in general just getting into the whole culture wars like calling out the evangelicals and their worship of Trump for not being very christ like you know, not that I think that's not important I just feel like. There's enough voices pointing that out I don't have a whole lot of new stuff to add to the conversation but I was reflecting on the way my understanding of like what evangelical even means has evolved over the years right when I was younger I thought evangelical basically just means like normal christian. Which of course like says a lot about me and like the the kind of world I was brought up in and now what I think like when people use the word evangelical. That's what they mean is like Mega White Nationalist q and on Trump supporter January Six insurrectionist kind of thing. So yeah.

36:02.93
forestandtrees
Obviously not not into that stuff. You know I I think Trump's the worst ah and I'm down with progressive christianity. You know this was like in 16 when all this was was coming up and I was having a real crisis of conscience about. Can I even be a christian anymore and I was very attracted to progressive christianity that kind of. Social justice sojourners people like Richard Rohr and Peter Rowlands who are like contemplatives and mystics and into like the the woo woo we're on a journey you know god is all all is god but we're still focusing on like. Or maybe they'd say like the spirit of Jesus or like Richard or talks about the universal Christ where he's like Jesus is Christ but the sunset is Christ and the forest is Christ and maybe the trees too right? All that stuff I'm like I'm into that stuff I think that's cool and interesting. But. You know after a while of like reading some of those books and studying it. It felt somewhat hollow to me after a while it felt like it's just kind of spiritual navel gazing right? So I don't know like me so that I'll just all that to say I feel like I've tried like both ends of the spectrum and feel like I don't I don't have camp there. Um, so yeah, maybe there is some middle ground that's like kind of more of a personal thing like when you're talking about going outside the city gates. It made me think of okay, so if I was just on my own right? like if I was on a desert island completely isolated for the rest of my life would i.

37:39.10
forestandtrees
Come back to Jesus what I start talking to Jesus instead of just talking to myself in my own head I think I probably would right and would that be the person of Jesus that I'm talking to would that just be my own personal version of Wilson the volleyball you know I don't know. Ah, but that's that's where I'm at and processing all this does any of that make sense.

38:06.14
Jeremy
Yeah I mean I think that's a really interesting. Um, you know illustration you gave of if it was just you because I think that's exactly what I'm asking is do you think you could because I again I think a lot of people are where you are in the sense of.

38:16.79
forestandtrees
Um.

38:23.45
Jeremy
Kind of look at the whole thing of christianity and it just seems like it's too much and so it's like do I have to take it all or nothing you know and I think that's where a lot of people get stuck like is it. You know if I'm gonna be a Christian do I have to like Trump you know do I have to do this and that and. And I think there's just kind of like depending on who you talk to it can feel like it's all 1 big package and I guess what I'm you know advocating is certainly of like let's let's go the other way rather than starting there as like this package Jill you get? let's start with Jesus. And then figure out where does that lead you and that's why I like these 2 verses this like idea of let us go out to Jesus outside the camp start there and then figure out where like where do we go next you know I mean but like let's go out to where he is. He's not in the city. He's not with everybody else. You know he's he's out in the disgrace. With those who have been overlooked. Um, and again I think your answer essentially is yes as I understand it the you know the the the deserted island illustration of yeah I think if its just me I would and I don't know that's like just for whatever it's worth is like encouraging to hear you know like I think. Like there's like a glimmer of Jesus still alive in you that you know like you're still processing hey there's a whole bunch of junk I don't know how to make sense of and a whole bunch of questions I don't know how make sense of but um I love that you you still think you'd be open to that and I guess that's you know.

39:57.82
Jeremy
My own prayer for you would be that that would be something that Jesus would fan that flame you know that you would be able to build that and then figure out the rest of it in time.

40:10.48
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, for sure I mean like like we were talking about on last week's episode also like when I kept pushing on like are you sure we're not supposed to just walk the earth you know again? like maybe that's my own like personal hangups and feeling like ah. You know, feeling like this is what Jesus is calling us to do maybe that maybe that is like the holy spirit telling me that's what I'm supposed to do I'm supposed to just just ah travel and live off the land for a while or something like that you know I've I've often thought maybe that's the reason I'm not experiencing Jesus is because I'm still like living this. Comfortable middle class consumer lifestyle so you know maybe maybe the mystics were right in that way and I need to like go into a cave and ah fast for forty days or something like that. Yeah.

40:47.39
Jeremy
He.

40:57.52
Jeremy
I Mean it's worth a shot.

41:02.64
forestandtrees
Yeah, sure, what's the worst thing that could happen.

41:07.20
Jeremy
I Love it.

41:09.40
forestandtrees
Ah, ok, cool, um all right? Well let's let's move on to some of our takeaways as I said this is the the season finale concluding concluding thoughts where we're finishing the book of hebrews. We're going to.

41:18.93
Jeremy
Concluding thoughts takeaways.

41:26.30
forestandtrees
Take a break for a little while we're we're not 100% sure what we're going to do next but we plan to maybe I should ask you now Jeremy do you still want to continue this podcast.

41:35.50
Jeremy
Wow I feel so so put on the spot. Yes, we've talked about it Jeff that our plan because a number of you have asked is to take a break and online and everywhere kind of open it up for you guys of like what would you love us to tackle next as the next book now that you've kind of seen the format and. You know it took us a few episodes to kind of figure out what what are we doing here and how do we want to do it and what do we feel like is is the better flow and I think we've kind of ah gotten into a groove on that and you know we we've thrown a few ideas out of books that would be fun to do. There's a lot of them so we have a lot of options. Um, and it doesn't necessarily be if it was a big book. We probably wouldn't do chapter by chapter. We would you know break it down. So if you're thinking it has to be a smaller book. Um, you know 13 chapters or less. It doesn't but we'd love to hear from you guys as we do it. But yeah, this has been a learning you know thing for us. So we we've. Gotten together and share some of our takeaways from our time together.

42:35.44
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, great. Great plug there. Yeah reach out if you have ideas or if there's a certain book of the bible. You'd love to hear us discuss in this format? Um, yeah force and trees pot at Gmail or reach out on social media. But all right? So I want to offer a takeaway here jeremy because this is my first time. Ever having a podcast honestly, this is kind of a dream come true because I've been a fan of podcasts my entire adult life I always thought um podcast it would be It seems like it'd be so much fun to have a podcast and I've wanted to start 1 multiple times and oftentimes I didn't just because I was. Busy and it just seemed like a lot of work. So now that we've completed this season I think I can successfully say that I do. In fact, have a podcast I'm a part of one and I can call myself a podcaster and I want to say that both those things are true. It is a lot of fun and it is a lot of work. So. That's my takeaway on podcasting.

43:33.96
Jeremy
I think you're very good at it and I've enjoyed doing it with you I'm I'm in the same boat I have loved doing a podcast I have thought about it for many years you know when I was teaching every week in a church thought of adding a podcast was like oh gosh you know I'm already cranking out content every week on this and I'm blogging and I'm writing you know, um, you know, but in this season it's been a lot of fun ah to do that and you know to dive into this together. So I would agree having podcasts has been fun. It is a lot of work. Especially when your co-host asks questions that you're like dang I'm gonna have to go research that good to put some work in so there's been numerous nights that Jeff has kept me up late into the evening as I'm trying to figure out how the heck do you answer that question. That's a really good question. And and I I like that process because it makes me better and I think you know one things especially the way I'm wired is when I have to teach something. It makes me know it really well and I learn a lot that way is thinking about how would I teach this concept and and so I really have enjoyed my own journey. Also say for those of you considering your own podcast if you're going to do it with another person make sure to pick a super creative person as your co-host because it makes it way better. They sing fun songs and they can make graphics.

45:01.85
Jeremy
For your podcast and they could put great clips together and all that stuff's Jeff in case, you're wondering. That's all the mind of Jeff he's so creative and so good at it and then a number of people a number of you have commented well, you really lucked out you know doing the podcast with Jeff because he makes all your stuff look really good and it's like. Yes, yes, he does and so ah, that's been my my takeaway is I'm super grateful to do this with you and incredibly grateful for all the work you've put into it.

45:31.60
forestandtrees
Oh thanks Jeremy yeah I appreciate that sometimes I think about like is this ah a not even split because I'm doing all of the technical aspects of the podcast. But then I think you know I have to like produce and edit and upload the stuff. But. And then all Jeremy has to do is come up with answers to what is the meaning of the universe. So you know it's even Stevens as far as I can tell.

45:54.18
Jeremy
Um, ah yeah, my answers may not sound great to some of you but they they actually do take me time to figure out so you may be listening to the going that he researched that answer.

46:09.28
Jeremy
Ah, yeah I did I had to these are not off top. My head Jeff gives me the questions you know, usually a couple days in advance and I have a chance to sit down and go okay, that's that's really good. Let me explore that and what I what I like especially and I I think we should try to do more of this in the future is. You know I think on this first podcast you know of hebrews we we were able to talk big picture on a lot of these things I'd love to get more into nitty gritty where you know we're talking about specific verses and okay, what is this verse actually saying you know and kind of take it from this meta you know picture to you know. In particular these different verses. So that as someone is studying the text because there's a number of time you know I think of like the one a few weeks ago where you know my my answer is basically hey the verse should be split this first sentence should go with verse 5 second sense you know is where verse six should start. That's the kind of stuff I think is is. Where a lot of the work comes in. But also I think that's what's helpful for people as they're reading these texts to go. Yeah, that verse right? There is super confusing and so I think in the future if we can spend a lot of our time getting into the actual text that we're going through and going. Okay, we've covered some of these big themes now. Let's get into that I think that'd be super fun.

47:23.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, that that is a great point because I feel like in some ways I've kind of betrayed the initial mission of this podcast of being about like studying the bible in this nitty Gritty Verse by Verse way because a lot of times. Yeah, we we chose the book of hebrews because.

47:23.83
Jeremy
Yeah, you know what to do.

47:39.28
forestandtrees
Um, it was your suggestion and I think it was a good one that it's kind of a broad sweep. It covers all kinds of theological topics and oftentimes. It's like I'll read just one verse in hebrews and instead of being like what is hebrews saying here. It's more like well this reminds me of this phrase I always hear in church and some of my critiques are about hebrews in particular some are about.

47:43.35
Jeremy
And.

47:51.66
Jeremy
A.

47:59.18
forestandtrees
The bible overall summer about Christian culture broadly. So yeah I agree with you. It would be fun to you know I suppose every every book of the bible is going to be different in that way, but especially if we cover a book That's not one of the epistles I think it's going to change the show Dramatically yeah.

48:14.64
Jeremy
Yeah, totally.

48:18.63
forestandtrees
Um, all right? Well speaking about creating content. Oh I so I put out on um Instagram just asking for feedback and we actually just got a lot of just you know, no questions but really appreciate you guys. You guys make us feel. Feel like we're not alone in our deconstruction and uncertainties. So really appreciate everyone who who responded to my just call for feedback on Instagram. Thank you to our listeners social media followers. There was 1 question from sailor sketches that I wanted to bring up and I've figured we could talk about a little bit since we're sort of. Christian content creators. Um, if I can say that so he asked this question with companies like pure flicks striving to create Christian films that spread the values of god why are most christian films bad are they truly capturing the message Jesus had. Or are they adding fuel to the fire of division between those who follow god and those who don't would these christian movies be more successful if they approach the message in a more progressive way. Thank you sailor sketches for that question. What do you think? Jeremy.

49:28.95
Jeremy
So here's ah, here's a hot take on that I think the reality is and this is something we've talked about but I think much of Christian evangelicalism is not well thought through meaning you know we have these answers. We don't know why these are the answers. We couldn't explain these answers but we're we're you know, really certain that these are the right answers and what we're trying to do in this podcast is explore are those the best answers are there better answers are there other ways looking at it and again with no. You know, neither one of us really and there's no goal in mind of if you listen to this podcast. You should end up at you know, no, it's like it's a discussion and wherever this meets you in your own journey. We hope that it's helpful and what does helpful mean that you're growing and learning and I you know I mean even that it's like I don't know. Um, but I think the reality is a lot of christianity and people get stuck in this It's like this stuff doesn't make sense anymore and it might have made sense to you at 1 point and then you start asking some deeper questions and you're like what and I think the reason why a lot of Christian content is bad. It's because it's based on bad assumptions and bad answers and bad thinking truthfully and a lot of you know you love to harp on hobby lobby. It's it's a you know a passion of yours. A lot of hobby lobby stuff is not deep.

50:52.45
forestandtrees
Graphic design is their passion.

50:57.70
Jeremy
I mean it's like not it's like a no du but that's when you have that that kind of thinking and then you make content out of it. It should be no surprise that you're getting hallmark content out of that right? because it's not It's it's not wrestled through and deep and. Process and vetted and so I think that's why a lot of Christian content is really bad is because it's just people who are making content content on assumptions and on. You know flimsy logic on things that they haven't wrestled through it. They haven't sat down with someone who disagrees with them and asked why do you you not agree with this, you know the very nature of this podcast is the antithesis of that like Jeff like shoot holes in this stuff. What does it make sense to you and why you know I mean like giving space to that voice. Most of these things don't and so someone like you watches it and it's like what? ah that makes no sense and then the the sad part is then someone like me who does believe christianity does believe Jesus right? called I called myself a christian and I I watch myself and I'm like what. You know and you know there's a reason I don't I've never seen the left behind movies. Don't plan on it. You know I don't watch most of the christian movies that come out. Ah it's not usually good and I think that's why.

52:18.77
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I I thought about this question so much, especially like when I was a christian especially as a creative person it it really did bother me. Um I mean christian movies I'd say are. Are a relatively newer phenomenon in terms of them actually being theatrically released. But you know I grew up in the kind of Reliant k switch foot ah tooth and nail records era you know, not not to say that and not to say those bands are. Not great. Some of them legitimately are great like I still love me without you to this day but that was something that really bothered me about christian music when I was like a teenager because I was raised taught that um, the primary purpose of music. Is to bring glory to god so if you're a band and you're not a Christian artist then that's like a perversion of the original intent of music and it seems so backwards to me because I'm like then why is the like the non-christian stuff. So much better than the christian stuff. Why does the christian stuff feel like a watered down version of you know, secular media. Um, why you know why is the quality just so much higher and to to talk about the the movies and storytelling I think part of it is because like.

53:44.89
forestandtrees
Christian movies movies that are like marketed as Christian movies. They kind of are contractually obligated to have a happy ending right? and to like have they're not they don't allow for like uncertainty and doubt and. Wrestling with questions and ambiguity. Um like a couple episodes ago I was talking about silence which is a movie ah written and directed by Martin Scorsese well based on a book but directed. By course says he who is a committed catholic um, and that's but. Incredible movie. Ah, kind of a masterpiece in my opinion and it's it doesn't come down on one end it. It leaves you with this uneasy feeling of I'm not even sure what to think of this whether this faith is a good thing or bad thing. So I feel like that. That's the kind of stuff. Personally that resonates with me is the the uncertainty and the doubt and engaging with that aspect of storytelling whether it's movies music or any other kind of artwork.

54:54.52
Jeremy
Did you ever see the movie the book of life. Um I put that and I think that's what that movie's called I have to look it up. But I think you're reminding me of that. It's one of those. It's like a I don't and you'd probably know the director but um.

54:56.38
forestandtrees
I Have not no.

55:12.70
Jeremy
It's like a Christian movie but it's bizarre and like it's got like Brad Pitt in it and tree of life. Yeah yes, sorry ah yeah, ah the tree of life much better and I remember watching that and I'm like I can't tell if I love this or I hate it.

55:16.18
forestandtrees
Oh the tree the tree of life you mean? Yeah, yeah of course Terrence Malick

55:29.52
forestandtrees
Yeah, like.

55:31.54
Jeremy
Yeah, you know like I'm like confused by it and I need to like talk about it with other people and I've thought about that a few times of like I should probably go back and rewatch that a few more times and like every few years yeah depending on my journey like see if it makes more sense to me. But I do think it's possible. You know we're creating a. Christian content podcast if you will I do think it's possible to create meaningful Christian content I just think the question gets to why is so much of it. Not that meaningful and I you know I think there like you said there's a reason you can explain it and I think there's.

55:55.24
forestandtrees
What? what.

56:08.48
Jeremy
This idea that Christians have had home field advantage for a long time and this sense of we can just put whatever we want out there because it'll sell and Christians will support it and God's on our side type of thinking and you know more and more it's like no, we don't have the numbers anymore and we don't have the majority and we don't have all the power and influence that. You know we did at one point and so if you make a really bad movie. It's probably going to be received really poorly and as it should.

56:38.36
forestandtrees
Yeah tree tree of life is amazing. Yeah, and that's ah Terence Malk is a christian as far as I am aware as well. Um I also just want to say about it's something that I think about a lot too of like so I used to like be a teenager and just be kind of embarrassed by. Christian music and like I wanted to just listen to secular music all the time but my parents didn't want me to and now as a non christiantian adult I think of some of my favorite artists are ah so just some names here Damian Girado John Darne of the mountain goats nick cave and sufi on stevens. All these people based on interviews that I've like listened to of them and stuff are christians like you know, openly talk about their faith but none of them are like marketed as christian they're not on a Christian label and I think they have the freedom to explore their There are questions and their unique interpretations of things without having to you know deliver a certain message for a certain market. So yeah.

57:43.30
Jeremy
Yeah, love it. 1 of the it's funny. 1 of the biggest fights my dad and I ever got it when I was growing up was about listening to Metallica I was I was big into Metallica when I was I was playing guitar in high school and I was learning a lot of guitar licks. You know through Metallica songs and. My dad adamantly did not approve of you know me listening to Metallica and we got in he and I were like it's not like we had major fights but ah the the biggest one that we both would look at like when I was in high school like oh that one was was pretty heated. You know, ah, we did not see eye to eye on this. And it was over me listening to Metallica Fast forward and this is a much longer story than I'm gonna go into but had a chance to meet James Hetfield with my dad and James Hefield is the lead singer of Metallica and we told him the story of me growing up. And this fight with my dad and all this and my dad basically said to James Hetfield like hey sorry about that like there was more to your music than I understood and you know I see it very differently now and it was this really cool moment of like if you would have told me as a high school student. That my dad and I would be sitting down with James Hetfield this international rock star you know who sells out stadiums anywhere. He goes that we tell him this story and then one of the funny funniest things this is so snarky when I was in high school I don't know if you knew this Jeff but I can be a little snarky at times I ah.

59:12.98
forestandtrees
Yeah.

59:17.34
Jeremy
So I was trying to troll my dad up to this fight and so I went up to one time and I said hey dad. Um, it's the land of goshen a real place and he's like yeah you know is in is yeah, the whole Egypt story like starts telling me like it's all animated and he's like are you reading about that. I said no I heard it in a Metallica song. He's like what because there is this phrase in a Metallica song the song's called creeping death and ah, there's this phrase about the land of Goshen. So. Were meeting James Hutfield I tell him that I said hey I actually got back at my dad afterwards I used your creeping death song to do it and he tells us that he's literally he was sitting down in front of the Tv just practicing his guitar and I think he said the 10 commandments movie was on. And he was watching the tech commands movie and he's like oh that that last plague would be awesome song and he wrote the creeping death after watching the passs over otherwise ah I literally use that to show my dad I was learning about the bible through your song so you know just sometimes you just need some time.

01:00:23.54
forestandtrees
Incredible. Yeah, oh man, that's yeah I knew that you you had some kind of circumstance where you met with Metallica but yeah, maybe you have to tell the full story on a future podcast episode. Yeah.

01:00:34.53
Jeremy
Future Future episode. Maybe.

01:00:39.00
forestandtrees
I didn't also I didn't know you played guitar. Do you still play guitar. Why are you not playing the theme song right now. Jeremy.

01:00:44.45
Jeremy
Ah, cause I'm introverted and I haven't picked up a guitar in a while I I mean like I I could like there's parts of it. You don't you don't forget you know I still have all my guitars I Still dabble I've been off and on learning the piano a little bit in ah in the last. Year So just kind of teaching myself I Love music and I Love you know, having an outlet. But honestly, it's just like unless I'm just gonna sit here and jam with myself. You know I don't I don't know I have a good outlet for it anymore. That's lets haven't used this much.

01:01:14.90
forestandtrees
Maybe this podcast should be a band instead of a podcast. We already have the name and the logo and everything.

01:01:23.64
Jeremy
Wow this that's a lot to process. Okay I'm gonna before we derail this I'm gonna get to another takeaway of mine. Ah because this is this this has just been fun for me I have learned how to brace myself for your responses Jeff and by that I mean.

01:01:28.41
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:01:41.34
Jeremy
It has been comical to me and I don't know if people who are listening pick up on this the way I do or if I'm just being overly sensitive but I will you'll ask this great question and I will I will work through I mean was there's one of the answers in particular I'm thinking of I I like literally is the atonement episode where I was like really trying to explain it.

01:01:46.40
forestandtrees
But.

01:02:00.15
Jeremy
I had worked for hours to like take a whole bunch of ideas and then I worked them reworked them. You know, dwindled them down to say it as succinctly as I could I mean like I had spent so much time on that one answer in particular really trying to feel like I could answer it well and explain it clearly. And I felt a little bit like proud of myself like at the end of like that answer and you have this like go to like? Yeah okay I see that and then you like explain why you don't agree with it and it's like so funny to me. It's like I'm putting like. My heart and soul out there like what do you think about this. It's like I'm giving birth to something like here's my child Jeff what do you think you're like it's all right? Yeah I mean I could like see how that's a baby. You know it's like it's just this this funny thing of and again you're you're like the nicest person in the world. So there's no ill intent there. It has just been a funny experience to It's like I'm trying to convince you of something every time I give you these answers and you're never impressed and I like that about you and it's good for me but I have I've had to just like okay this is my answer I'm gonna brace myself. Whatever he says next. It's okay.

01:03:10.46
forestandtrees
Brutal brutal it reminds me of when you hear stories about like comedians when like they've worked their whole life to get up to um, having ah an Snl audition and they they pour their heart and soul out and Lauren Michaels like doesn't laugh at all and just says yeah, that's funny right.

01:03:27.22
Jeremy
Yeah, is I remember Jerry Seinfeld in his book talked about when comedians sell their comedian a joke. They don't laugh. They just say that's funny and then you're like oh it's interesting. Um, but I will say I have appreciated the fact that you and I can disagree and we can still learn from each other and.

01:03:27.84
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:03:32.47
forestandtrees
M.

01:03:44.49
Jeremy
I think one of my takeaways is I want more of these conversations in my life like I've really enjoyed this I think it's been better for me. This has contributed to my own growth. Um I like this and I think we're this is a hope we said I think at the very beginning of this is that our hope would be that we would model something that more people could do you know which is. Learn to have healthy conversations with people you disagree with on a variety of topics and grow in the process and you know have that we actually got a question submitted that I think is in line with this I'd I'd love to hear your thoughts because this whole thing was your idea you came to me saying hey what? if we read the bible together and you know here's the angle and so the question is. Ah, from 1 of our listeners. How do we go about finding ways to connect with people who disagree with us. So obviously start a podcast that's that's all way maybe not the way for everybody Jeff what are some other ways. You think that people could do what we're doing here.

01:04:38.11
forestandtrees
Wow You took my flip and joke answer. That's what I was going to say with start a podcast. Ah yeah, yeah, brutal brutal. We're just we're dying on stage up here I mean I guess you know the.

01:04:40.41
Jeremy
Beat you to it.

01:04:54.11
forestandtrees
The sentimental answer is empathy right? Get to know someone like everyone is a stereotype until you get to know them I was just ah like a few minutes ago railing against the the awful evangelicals that there was their Trump worship and. Christian nationalism and all that stuff. But these are these are also like my parents and my aunts and uncles who I'm talking about to some extent and like I know these people and I have a relationship with them right? and like when you get to know someone. It's harder to judge them right.

01:05:28.56
Jeremy
I Love it.

01:05:28.92
forestandtrees
Is that too basic of an answer. Okay great. Do do you have more to say on that. Okay, ah yeah.

01:05:36.30
Jeremy
No, it's good I I did want to close I think this is a good segue for us to to maybe land this on a on an upbeat note. Um, we have someone named Charles who listens regularly friend of mine. And he sent me something this week that I thought I thought was just encouraging that hopefully you and I both would resonate with to some degree but um, Charles said this it is so cool to me that even with how much man has corrupted the message of Jesus and twisted things and weaponized christ throughout the generations. Is still here and he is still here and true I really was encouraged by that of like yeah, there's been a lot of baggage There's been a lot of junk that you know is job security if you want to have a podcast on you know christianity in the bible because there's so much to try to unpack. Um, but I share Charles's you know kind of spirit there of optimism of like but Jesus is still here and I still think Jesus is true Jesus is still compelling still drawing me in and I don't know so it's like an encouragement even when we get through some of the stuff that go. Yeah, it's pretty discouraging. You know some of these.

01:06:50.78
Jeremy
Illustrations of you know, modern christianity that you and I end up talking about in this podcast could be pretty discouraging at the same time I'm also encouraged that even despite all of that Jesus is still here and it's still good.

01:07:02.23
forestandtrees
Yeah I certainly would agree that Jesus is still compelling right? like like we've been talking about this whole podcast right? I'm I'm like I was raised with this stuff you know and in some ways I'm just like. Wanting to be done wanting to walk away in some ways I'm like I'm still interested I'm still compelled and I want to try to make sense of it in some way. So yeah I mean I I don't necessarily agree with all of that quote because like it it ties into like what I was saying earlier about like everyone has their own. View of Jesus and you know in my opinion they all can't necessarily be reconciled. But yeah I I agree that there there is something compelling about it and there's something to be said for the fact that two thousand years later we're still talking about it. So. Yeah I think that's a great quote more podcast to come? Yeah, ah, okay, any other concluding words or is that it.

01:07:56.98
Jeremy
With more podcasts to come Jeff.

01:08:06.20
Jeremy
I Think we I think we've covered it this we talk about the bit that we're getting ready to record this. This is gonna be a really short episode and it's it's not. It's not been a really short episode. So evidently we like to talk or we're just we're just really grateful. Maybe it's just that we're just we're.

01:08:14.45
forestandtrees
Ah I called it.

01:08:24.88
Jeremy
Overflowing with gratitude for this. Ah, this journey.

01:08:29.54
forestandtrees
Um, I'm I'm certainly overflowing overflown with something that's for sure. Ah, okay, well yeah, Jeremy thank you for joining me on this journey. It's. We're talking. We're getting all sentimental. It's not over. We're just going to take a break for a few weeks and we'll be back. We're going to discuss a different book of the bible. We haven't fully decided yet so email us reach out if you have suggestions. We'd love to hear them and I guess the real forest and trees was the friends we made along the way. So we'll talk to you next time. Goodbye.