Hebrews 12 - Walk the Earth

Jeremy and Jef go into the wild and walk the earth. 

Topics
What does it actually  mean to follow Jesus?
God’s Punishment
Jacob and Esau
Does an Atheist have room for God to speak to them?
Holy Fear and Awe

References
Pulp Fiction
Into the Wild Book
Into the Wild Movie
A Black Theology of Liberation

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Email us at ​​forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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Transcript

00:00.00
Jeremy
All right? We've made it almost to the end not quite the end almost to the end we are in chapter 12 of the book of hebrews. You're listening to the force in the trees. My name is Jeremy and as always I'm joined by my friend. Jeff.

00:17.81
forestandtrees
Basically I'm just going to walk the Earth. Yeah, oh yeah, thanks for coming along.

00:18.92
Jeremy
Yeah, you are. We're gonna we're gonna walk it together today. You've you've ridden much of the earth on your bike actually.

00:28.56
forestandtrees
Yeah, well not not much of the Earth much a good chunk of the country I guess but.

00:33.75
Jeremy
I Mean more of the earth than than one such as myself has has traversed on a bike.

00:39.75
forestandtrees
Truly truly. Yeah I would love to do more like international bike trips. You know like if I had unlimited money I think I would probably do that full time that'd be awesome.

00:50.42
Jeremy
If you guys don't know Jeff's ah road trips are pretty epic to follow and he does a good job documenting them so that might be you know once you're done listening to chapter 12 and 13 of the podcast which you know you've you've made it almost to the end then you know just go check out. Jeff's social media page and explore him and his trips on a bike. It's pretty It's pretty entertaining stuff.

01:14.40
forestandtrees
Oh thanks for the plug Jeremy yeah yeah, I've got videos on Tiktok Instagram Youtube you know, tell all your friends. Ah, we're not no.

01:19.91
Jeremy
Spread the word all right, but we're not talking about bikes today. Jeff we're we're here for hebers chapter 12 now today on the pod we're explore what does it mean to follow Jesus? What's up with god's punishment. Why does god let people win on technicalities and we're going to share our gratitude that our podcast doesn't cause us to be burned at the stake I feel grateful for that I don't know about you.

01:50.52
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, think yeah thank the founding fathers for ah, freedom of Speech and freedom of religion am I am I right.

01:58.90
Jeremy
Okay, ah moving on I'm not even gonna acknowledge that one moving on I would like to set the tone for today as I often do with a verse out of hebrews 12 that I think is so great and. Ah, is is in line with the Jesus I have been talking about thus far on this podcast hebrews chapter 12 verse 24 says this you have come to Jesus the one who mediates the new covenant between god and people. And to the sprinkled blood which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of abel now I think this is a beautiful way almost poetic if you will to. Compare and contrast the blood of Abel which is the first blood spilled as recorded in the bible and the blood of Jesus and to say that this blood of Jesus speaks of forgiveness because that is how Jesus shed it. Whereas you know the initial story of Canaan Abel something goes very wrong that blood cries out little this as the soil cries out to god to be made right? and then you have that fulfilled in the blood of Jesus I don't know Jeff I just think that's super cool.

03:24.72
forestandtrees
I Think it's school too. Yeah literarily speaking I Love a good callback. So yeah, it is yeah it's um yeah, the the blood and the family conflict and the meaning of sacrifice and the idea of.

03:30.10
Jeremy
That's ah, that's a epic callback.

03:42.86
forestandtrees
Gardens and paradise all this all these thematic things that like come up in the bible and then are like Rebrought up and subverted. Yeah I think it's cool I'm into that stuff.

03:49.92
Jeremy
Especially weve talked about Jesus in this book being you know as the author is over and over and over again making the point Jesus is the fulfillment Jesus is the thing that all of this story has been taking us to and then to start it off you know with the blood of Abel I just think is a cool literary. Technique so there you go that's ah now set our set the stage and now Jeff take us down into the skepticism into the questions. What's your reaction to hebrews 12.

04:23.21
forestandtrees
Yeah, good chapter. Lots of great ideas here and I want to start off with ah a quote from ah verses 1 and two the great cloud of witnesses is this is this a famous iconic verse I remember having to memorize this verse for sports camp back in the day.

04:40.46
forestandtrees
Um, but maybe that was just the particular program I was in.

04:40.69
Jeremy
Um, you're giving us so many just gems from your childhood I mean we have dobson teaching you about sex. Ah now you know you have you at sports camp which is another great image just to to ponder you.

04:50.24
forestandtrees
Yeah.

04:59.78
forestandtrees
Yeah, my yeah, my my athletic career didn't blossom the way that ah yeah, some people may have hoped but I'm still.

05:00.28
Jeremy
You talking about hebrews 12 at at sports camp I love it. Jeff.

05:08.99
Jeremy
Church Church Sports Camp didn't do it for you here. We goes let's do it.

05:13.38
forestandtrees
I'm still quoting hebrews 121 so so that's a win for sports camp. Okay so I'm going to read some from versus 1 and 2 let us run with endurance. The race got has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus the champion who initiates and perfects our faith. So this speaks to. Concept that I've heard all the time in church and christian culture. The idea of like just follow Jesus right? It's so simple just like let's stop bickering about differences here and there and like lay. All your things aside and just follow Jesus right? And this is a thing that. when I when I was a very devout Christian I thought and yeah I totally agree. This is like this is literally the meaning of life is to just follow Jesus and of course once you drill that down and start to think about it. It's a very open to interpretation command to say just follow Jesus like. What does that mean, especially if god is not going to answer your prayers audibly with spoken word right? like it seems to me that god in my understanding of christianity mostly prefers to speak with with vague feelings that are difficult to distinguish between. Your own thoughts and emotions and the voice of god and I just feel like the when I think of practically what does it mean to follow you this most of the time I see people saying like god like moved me and my family to Houston and what they actually mean is like.

06:46.35
forestandtrees
I applied for a job in Houston and I had the interview got the offer and I prayed about it just to make sure god is this? okay and I heard nothing so I guess I'll take the job then and that's yeah, got got open the door. Yeah, or.

06:57.67
Jeremy
That might be like the open door argument God open the door. Yes.

07:05.89
forestandtrees
People Also talk about this in terms of like choosing a spouse right? That's the other time they'll pray for directionably like God Are you sure you want me to marry this person or not that kind of thing anyway. So I don't know maybe maybe.

07:14.12
Jeremy
Do people pray about that because I I've seen a lot of marriages I don't I don't think they prayed about.

07:22.22
forestandtrees
Ah, maybe they ignored the word that that they were given. Ah well I'm I'm not here to judge of the people's marriages who who am I to say but all right? So so is that's that seems to be as far as I can tell the practical meaning of what most people are talking about when they talk about like. Follow Jesus for real. They just mean in terms of like life decisions for them and their families and another thing I've thought about quite a bit is the idea of like okay so Jesus isn't going to speak to me directly but he speaks through his word and the gospels as far as I can tell it seems that. What Jesus really wants from us for the most part more often than not is for us to sell all of our stuff give it to the poor and just sort of walk the earth I think about the Samuel Jackson's character in pulp fiction have you seen pulp fiction jeremy okay.

08:13.92
Jeremy
It's It's been a while. But yes.

08:16.22
forestandtrees
So you remember towards the end of the movie. Um, no spoilers but he experiences a miracle and he decides he's going to set aside his life of crime and just walk the earth because he feels like this was a message from god that I need to like be god's vessel right. So just kind of like be ah, a homeless person essentially just walk around. You know, depend on the kindness of strangers be penniless. Um, it also reminds me quite a bit of the story of Chris Mccand is from into the wild have you read that book or seen the movie jeremy.

08:49.40
Jeremy
I have read the book and seen the movie.

08:52.58
forestandtrees
Yeah, same same I've I've read the book. Ah a couple times actually I feel like it really speaks to me I I really admire his his naive bravery in this I think it's fascinating that whenever you bring that book up. People have very strong opinions about Chris mcandlis a lot of people are very quick to. Judge him for his rashness and shortsightedness. Um, for context, he's a person who just he came from a wealthy family and he chose to just like get rid of all his stuff and just kind of hitchhike across the country and just live in the wilderness and he ended up dying in a van in Alaska um, a starvation and. Cold in the winter because he wasn't able to survive all right? So all that to say like maybe maybe he was ah following Jesus of course that Jesus also wants you to preach the gospel which we talked about that with a couple episodes ago with like the idea of just like being a missionary all right long long preamble there Jeremy but here's my question for you. What does it mean to follow Jesus if Jesus isn't going to give us clear directions.

09:58.20
Jeremy
that's that's a great it's great setup to a great question. So I am fascinated by the chris mccanni list story as well. I remember reading that book years ago and being fascinated by the story as well. And you know it it does embodies the the sense of adventure that I think a lot of us have and especially you know as you get older and you know for me, you know, settling down in a career and having kids and you know doing a lot of normal feeling things that. Sense of adventure can seem like it. It is it is passed you by of like look at these other people they get to go do this kind of stuff and you know I'm here taking kids to you know baseball practice or you know, whatever just kind of the the normal things you know that that each day brings but but but the story of Christmas canos is fascinating and I want I want to read one of my favorite quotes from that book. Um, because when I think about that story I think about this quote because to me it captures. Ah really a kind of a paradox it says this in coming to Alaska Mccannilys Yearned to wander uncharted to uncharted country to find a blank spot on the Map. He has this sense of adventure this drive I'm gonna go you know where no one's gone before where there's no there's no people I'm gonna go explore but this is this in 9092 However which is when this happened there were no more blank spots on the map not in Alaska not anywhere point being.

11:26.76
Jeremy
Great idea but people have already been there that you're not, you're not able to get away as he was trying to do it. They said this but Chris with his idiosyncratic logic came up with an elegant solution to this dilemma he simply got rid of the map.

11:44.41
forestandtrees
M.

11:46.20
Jeremy
If you know the story he literally decides I'm not going to use a map I'm not going to do this and that allows him to experience this sense of adventure. The sad irony as you read the book or I think this is in the the movie as well. Is you realize he was in civilization. Ah, you know there I think it was like there were 4 different cabins of that people owned within like six miles of where he died like he just didn't he didn't know about them. He didn't know that these cabins existed there were ranger stations. You know, packed with supplies that he would have known about there was all these opportunities like.

12:11.91
forestandtrees
You know.

12:24.91
Jeremy
He he didn't have to die of starvation. You know feeling like he was out in the middle of nowhere. There were all these things he didn't have the map that would have told him this and to me that really is an interesting tension in that story of is it really a sense of adventure. You know, are you really into the unknown if you merely get rid of the map and you think hey I'm out in the middle of nowhere. You know the cynic in me would say no you you didn't do what you you were delusional. You know you thought you were exploring this. But anyone else with the map would have told you hey you walk a mile that way you're going to run to a cabin with you know people hanging out there. You're not having the same experience. You think you are and I think that can be true of life as well. I think there are times whatever we want to call the map. You know from a Christian point of view. We could say the map is you know following Jesus.

13:03.54
forestandtrees
Okay.

13:17.80
Jeremy
Or you know some maybe more fundamentalist christians would say it's the bible. You know the the the guide you know to to help you figure it out but just saying I'm going to get rid of the map does not equate. You're now on an adventure it. It can mean. You know in the case of Chris that you're just a little bit delusional in in what you're actually experiencing and so I think that's an interesting ah I don't know just way of of kind of think about that as an analogy of following god I do think there are times we want to get rid of the map. Whatever we call the map because it feels more adventurous and. I think that's probably as silly as Chris you know dying of starvation and that's a sad part. This guy was young. He died of starvation and I would say needlessly I mean he he didn't need to you know and he just didn't have them out but going back to Jesus I think you know why.

14:01.42
forestandtrees
Ah.

14:11.43
Jeremy
Why didn't jesus give clear directions is a great question. We've talked about this numerous times like there are much easier ways. Jesus could have left this for us and didn't seem to want to you know why did Jesus teach in parables that are confusing and that people can have. Ah, variety of explanations for rather than just saying he hey here's 3 things do these 3 things and like ah it'll be good. He he seems like tell stories and you know and capture your imagination and so I think it's much more about trust and relationship and mystery. And this sense of you cannot follow Jesus without the person of Jesus well that may seem obvious but I think sometimes in christianity we attempt to do that I'm going to follow these verses I'm going to follow these doctrines I'm going to follow these ideas. Or these practices right? and that is what it means to follow Jesus and we can do that without ever involving the person of Jesus we we talked about I think Jordan Peterson last week or the week before that is the embodiment of that idea like I'm gonna follow these principles I'm gonna reduce it to principles but not the person of Jesus and I think you can't follow Jesus that way. Like you had to follow the person of Jesus and Jesus sets it up in such a way that you cannot follow him ah apart from him like you can't he doesn't he doesn't release all these ideas and say hey you don't need me anymore. Just go do these things. It's always connected back to him which is a relationship tension. There.

15:45.95
Jeremy
And it you know may be way easier and this last weekend we had a chance. Our family had a chance to go to Disneyland and I'm a huge Disney nerd and we brought our family of 7 and then went with my my in-laws. So Michelle sister and her family. So there's. And they're their mom and so there's a total 12 of us. Well I'm the guy that I'm going to load all of our tickets onto my phone I'm going to manage all of our you know, ah all of our bookings and I don't know if you've been to to Disneyland lately Jeff it has gotten more complicated than it used to be. Ah, you should just be get a fast pass. You can get a couple. You're good now you have genie plus you've got lightning lane. You got all this some some lightning lanes you gotta pay for I mean it's it's bunkers and so we're trying to like map out our day. How do we go and do what we do? Everybody's got their own opinion and I'm the only one with all the tickets on my phone so you know hey we want to see world of color tonight. Well Jeremy's got to figure out how to book it and make sure you know it was like all down to me I felt this tension. And I'm constantly trying to engage. Well hey what what? right? Do you want to do next? What I do you want to do next and you know people would come to me like hey let's do this one next I'm like well you might want to do that 1 but half of our group isn't gonna do that like there was this tension of like decisions couldn't get made without relationship. We had to like talk it through constantly.

17:18.20
Jeremy
And that it went bad but it was definitely like a what are we doing next? How are we gonna do this. Let's all agree on something and I think that tension is what Jesus invites us into It's always gonna be a tension with him of just what are we doing where are we going? Why is this happening and it's never gonna be separate from that relationship. And I actually think that's that's the beautiful part of it and so what does it mean to follow Jesus it means we have to learn to trust the person when we don't get clear answers when we don't get 5 steps to do and I think that's kind of the point of it and so again I don't know if that. Feels like a good answer to you or you're like oh I like that or if you're like that's still annoying because like I could see how it could be both but I think that really to me is the essence of following Jesus. It's about the person and the trust in that relationship. Always.

18:09.62
forestandtrees
Yeah, so so following the person of Jeremy and Disneyland is like following the person of Jesus as you navigate life.

18:18.53
Jeremy
It's a It's a very small small analogy. But I I had I had us how trying to use it to get us there.

18:22.37
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean I feel like the main difference there is like I can I can see you right? if I'm at Disneyland and I'm part of the group that you're leading I understand there's still tension because people disagree and stuff like that. But that's a pretty significant difference right? Other than.

18:31.33
Jeremy
Sure.

18:40.42
Jeremy
Admittedly, yes, yes, it is but I think I would have to say you know and again you can you can chalk it up to the you know moving my family to Houston argument that you set up earlier but I would see there's there have been numerous examples of Jesus confirming a decision.

18:50.65
forestandtrees
Um.

18:57.92
Jeremy
Or I would say leading me now again, not audibly not beyond the shadow of a doubt you know there's no, you know, not not that but enough of a sense where I felt like I can move forward. Um on you know, saying yes to something or saying no to something and there's been times you know one of the ways. I. Often if I have to make a decision and I could go either way on it. 1 of the things I'll often pray about is that God would give me a piece on the decision. Not that it would be comfortable not that I would like it just that I would feel peace about it even if logically I can't make sense of it and there have been a number of times I prayed.

19:26.42
forestandtrees
Ah.

19:36.40
Jeremy
And I can think of 1 in particular I was asked to be Michelle and I are asked to be godparents to some you know kids ah friends of ours who had kids and they're really close to us and at first I was just going to say yes without even processing it I thought this this seems like a big deal I should pray about it. And so you know we pray about it and just pray god give us peace. We're supposed to say yes to this and be involved in these kids' life in that way and I didn't feel a peace like it was an unsettled ah like part of my spear about that and so I had to go back and tell him no and just that I've prayed about this and I don't feel like god is confirming this. And so I do think there are ways ah those of us who are following Jesus I do think most of us could give you examples of that now again, you could counterpoint it and say that's just us you know, affirming what we already want to do which there's sure there's no way to prove it either way. But I do think even though I can't see the person of Jesus. Um, I would say I sense the person of Jesus and do feel a connection personally to him.

20:40.84
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I mean I I don't know I feel like I know what you're talking about because I've like lived in that culture but it still sort of feels like like vague feelings that may or may not be from your own head can I ask you also about just the whole like um. Sell all your stuff and walk the earth aspect of what Jesus says do you have do you have feelings on that I realize that's that's kind of a completely separate question. But.

20:58.96
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

21:05.11
Jeremy
Well, he said that to one person. So I think what I would deduce from that is that was not a blanket teaching Jesus went around and said to everybody so I would not say Jesus's intent is that every single person do that I would say that's that's misreading the text but I would also say on the flip side of that argument. He might ask you to do that because he has in the past asked someone to do that. So it's not out of the realm of possibilities that jews would say here's what I want you to do. But I think it's misreading the text to say because he said it to 1 person that is now Jesus's default you know action for everybody. Um, and so I think that goes back to the person rather than a principle a principle would be following Jesus means that to sell all your stuff and walk the earth that's a principle and I would say no, it's about the person Jesus I would encourage someone ask Jesus if he's asking you to do that and the answer might be yes or.

21:49.41
forestandtrees
M.

21:59.76
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

22:02.41
Jeremy
It might be no and you can't get there without asking the person of Jesus rather than reducing that to a principle. So.

22:11.61
forestandtrees
With the I mean I know the rich showing ruler is like the the main example, but I mean isn't it also with all the disciples like he doesn't just forsake their family and their livelihood and like leave everything for him. The guy who wants to bury his father and Jesus says no, we can't wait for you and. Yeah, a multiple quotes where he tells people to leave their family and um, like the fishermen saying like I'm going to make you fishers of men now instead of fish. Ah yeah, yeah.

22:37.88
Jeremy
Sure well there was an immediacy you know he had 3 years that he literally was inviting people to walk around with him for 3 years so I think that that is a that's the most literal following Jesus you know that existed right of like literally I have three years here

22:53.17
forestandtrees
Right? right? when he's um.

22:55.54
Jeremy
I'm physically standing in front of you follow me now. Ah that that that is like a hundred percent follow jews we we don't have that invitation today. We don't have a physical person of Jesus saying for the next three years follow me around in person. We don't have that what we have is. That story and the story of many others who have followed him and then an invitation to figure out what does it mean for us to follow Jesus in our context today with the acknowledgment that he's not standing physically in front of us and we're gonna have to figure out what that looks like.

23:27.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, and it sorry just 1 more example is the summer on the mount when he says like look at the birds and the flowers like don't worry about um where your next meal is going to come from because god provides that that's kind of what makes me think of into the wild type stuff of like I'm just going to live like. Ah, very this very unpractical lifestyle where I'm just going to live off the land and depend on god to provide all my material needs if I'm following him.

23:50.54
Jeremy
Which I think again if you if you were asking me I would say pray about it and ask Jesus if Jesus is asking you to do that and if you sense the answers. Yes, go for it. But if you sense the answers. No, you're gonna have to keep asking what what is the answer because.

24:01.73
forestandtrees
Yeah, but.

24:09.10
Jeremy
Not every follower of Jesus did that Jesus his ministry. The reason he was able to do that is because there were women the text tells us that funded his ministry so they didn't tell all they had they they were using what they had resource wise to fund what Jesus and you know.

24:14.87
forestandtrees
But.

24:26.50
Jeremy
These people walking around with no day jobs what they were doing was funded by others. So I think you have to take a step back and go every single person didn't do that who is following Jesus and you know they were rich people. He interacted with and he you know he didn't tell them you know one of the examples like the centurion that follows him.

24:27.28
forestandtrees
Right.

24:44.36
Jeremy
You know there's a lot of things he could have said to the Centurian that he doesn't could have said hey you have to leave you know the army and not be a part of this could have said you have to you know, go join me and in leave room I mean there's a lot lots of things in that conversation that don't happen and I think you also have to make space for that to go. It's.

24:57.64
forestandtrees
M.

25:03.36
Jeremy
I think what we want to do and I think even your question is is kind of pulling toward this direction of we want to reduce it down to a a principle you can take with you apart from the person and that's where I would just say ah following Jesus is never about a principle over the person. It's always the person. And figuring out what is Jesus asking of me and it might mean this and it might mean this and it might me that and it might be totally different than what Jesus is asking you and we need to make space for all of that based on what we've seen from Jesus.

25:38.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, okay, that's right and then it and it's just in terms of like knowing what he's saying to you again. It comes down to like trusting the feelings. Um, right? yeah.

25:49.10
Jeremy
Right? Well and I would say you know we've talked about Richard Beck's book. But you know tuning yourself to I think he's the the idea of enchantment of to something beyond you right? tuning yourself to go I'm gonna listen to something and um, you know there is something in and that book that.

25:55.31
forestandtrees
Yeah, being.

26:06.34
Jeremy
I Really liked. He talked about I don't know if you remember this but talked about he carries her on a chot key. Do you remember this? Okay, so so a choat key is an orthodox prayer bracelet and ah ah, we'll have to put this clip on there. But here's I'm I'm showing the camera.

26:12.79
forestandtrees
Ah, no I don't think it's Chad key. Ok.

26:22.14
forestandtrees
Okay, oh cool.

26:24.45
Jeremy
I've I've got ah I got one off Etsy because you can get cool cholk kidss off Etsy and the idea is kind of like a catholic rosary but it's it's not beads. It's it's like a prayer rope but you keep this in your pocket and then you can pray you know different prayers over and over again as you you hold the rope. Um, so I got this last week and ah and I've been carrying at my pocket since then and it really is a cool reminder for me. This is this was his whole point. He carries one too I'll I'll reach into my pockets I'll feel this and it's a reminder to like okay retune myself to what is god doing in this moment and you know standing in. Ah, the grocery store line to their day and just started praying through you know, different ropes on this and and it was it was a moment of redirecting myself to that and cham and so yes I understand the criticism of I still can't prove it I still can't you know. Definitively tell you it was not my feelings or what I wanted to be true. But I do think anyone who wants to follow Jesus. You have to enter into this this mystery if you will of how do I learn to hear a supernatural god who I cannot see visibly in front of me and I think you know.

27:18.90
forestandtrees
Um.

27:37.99
Jeremy
That's something you spend your entire life trying to figure out.

27:41.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, it's true and I I hear your criticism too of like I'm ah my heart is made of stone and I'm not open to the magic of life. So yeah, maybe yeah, maybe after we're done with this podcast I'll go walk the Earth for a while come out a new man. Yeah.

27:48.16
Jeremy
I Didn't say that.

27:56.70
Jeremy
Just bring some prayer beads with you.

27:59.78
forestandtrees
Okay, all right next question has more more to do with um God and the way he interacts with our daily lives so Verse ten and eleven for our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years doing the best thing you how? but God's discipline is always good for us. So we might share in his Holiness. No discipline is enjoyable while it's happening. It's painful. But afterwards there will be a peaceful harvest of light live of right living for those who are trained in this way. Okay, so so this is talking about God's discipline the way God punishes Us. Just a disclaimer here like when we were starting this show I was wanting this to be not another cliche like atheist versus apologist debate type thing. So I'm like we're not going to talk about the problem of evil because that's been talked to Death. Um, so with with that as a caveat because I feel like. The the issue of God's punishment is somewhat similar to that I feel like we're going to dip our toes into that territory a little bit. Um but just wanted to put that out there anyway. So It's talking about like God being our father and disciplining us the way that ah, an an earthly father would discipline their earthly children and do you hear this. This comparison made in church and by pastors quite a bit you know? Ah, once again I'll say I do not have children I'm not a father and that's something that people say all the time of like after I had kids like I understood God's love for me in a new way. It totally changed my perspective on God So like maybe maybe that's why I'm missing because I don't.

29:33.29
forestandtrees
I don't have kids. Ah, but that that statement always kind of rubbed me the wrong way because I feel like when you look at the way some people's lives end up. They are like god does not take care of them the way an earthly father would like I understand people need to. Have consequences for their actions. The ah the scenario I came up with was like like sit. Let's say that your son was a little bit older ah is driving drunk and gets a Dui and has to spend a couple nights in jail right? I can see like an earthly father saying like okay. I'm hands off I'm going to allow you to suffer the consequences of your actions because you need to learn your lesson so you're going to learn it. The hard way. But let's say hypothetically? Yeah um, they're in a situation where they're drunk driving and they're going to. Drive off the road or crash and get themselves killed and get someone else killed if you had the power to stop them. You would not let them go all the way towards dying right? The way that god the heavenly father does and also there's people who lead very good lives and bad things happen to them. Sorry, that's the cliche problem of evil why do bad things happen to good people and vice versa. Ah sorry sorry I scratch scratch it from the record. So anyway, all that to say what's your understanding of how god punishes us.

30:45.22
Jeremy
You went there. You said you're not going.

30:57.31
Jeremy
Well I think this is getting into the the one of the iconic you know tensions people have with God but I think we need to separate God's punishment and the nature of Evil they they they kind of intersect at times. But I think we have to.

31:15.54
forestandtrees
Um.

31:16.96
Jeremy
Have to separate him and they intersect in the sense that God can use all things even evil and the forces of evil for a redemptive you know goal and so I think we have to realize this godly punishment is a consequence with a redemptive focus. That's how I would understand it So A godly punishment. Is a consequence something that happens but the focus is always redemptive and we know that because the verse you just read says it. But God's discipline is always good for us. So It's not punitive in Nature. It's not petty in Nature. It's It's good for us. I Would even put hell into this category as a punishment that could be redemptive in nature that God could use as a punishment to help someone ultimately develop into who you know God wants them to be this is where I think the parent analogy breaks down now. As a dad of 5 kids I I like the parent metaphor of disciplining because I like that that makes so much sense to me of yes I Love my children and know that love for them would not ever negate Me. Or prohibit me from disciplining them when they are doing something that I know is destructive to them or to others right? My love for them would compel me hey I'm going to you know, step in here where that breaks down is myself and every other parent We don't always discipline in a way that is good for the child.

32:49.46
Jeremy
Sometimes it's just good for us I'm mad I'm frustrated I'm blowing off steam I'm being petty. You know all sorts of things as parents our own sin our own brokenness comes in there and there's times where you know we might Overdiscipline. Or discipline the wrong way or you know any matter of it or just you know we're we're just venting off some steam and it was you know, undeserved to the kids and you know numerous time you have to apologize to your kids and go yeah sorry about that like I was out of line. I don't know what came over me or that wasn't warranted that wasn't fair and that's where the analogy breaks down god doesn't have that god doesn't have moments where oh sorry I just got really mad sorry I did that to you you know like I don't think god ever punishes like that I think god's discipline is always good for us. As the author of of Hebrews says it as it comes to then affect suffering and evil and that I would agree with you I would prefer it that it would stop much earlier than god apparently stops it absolutely from my vantage point. Yeah god there's more things you could do that if I were you I would do to which I just have to say that's where I have to trust in who I believe god to be which is good which is the person of Jesus and I also think it you know.

34:16.88
Jeremy
We assume the worst thing that could happen to someone is that they die in a car crash. Well from our point of view sure from god's point of view death is not the final anything I believe to god and so yeah, that that ceases one part of your existence but you know. Transitions you into the next where then god is gonna meet you in that and so it's not a loss It's not a waste from our point of view. It looks very different. But I think again god is not subject to death god doesn't work for death death has no power over god so even that analogy that we would go. Why would you allow this. God could be using it for redemption for ultimate good that we don't see this side of eternity and so I understand that's a huge kind of like whoa that's kind of mysterious but that's where I go back to if I'm following the person of Jesus that's where I have to practice trust and who I believe god to be. And say yeah, there's there's times I don't understand why god allows certain things but I do believe as the author of Huebe says god's discipline is always good for us and so if it's not good for us. It's not god disciplining us. It's something else. It's evil or it's the result of free will or you know a lot of things. And that doesn't mean god can't use it. But I think we can say that god didn't cause that.

35:34.33
forestandtrees
Yeah, so so would you say that's kind of how you break down like the I don't know the natural Evil Human Evil God Punishing Evil right? like there of course you could say like why does war happen. Well, that's you know a consequence of human free will and you'd be like well why does It. Tornado happen that kills innocent people and you you know like old testament view of God I would say like somewhat clearly that that is God punishing people for their wickedness. Um, but that's you know that's not so nice to say in polite society these days. So Would you say it like I don't know I would. Like that could be like demonic like demons cause the weather phenomenon to kill people or it's just like the randomness of a fallen world after the fall or something like that. How do you explain those kinds of things.

36:24.54
Jeremy
I don't I don't know if I have a definitive I think it's this or that I think it could be any of those factors or a combination of I think free will is probably a bigger deal than we realize meaning you know I have free. Will you have free will. Angels have free will demons have free will right? You start multiplying exponentially what you know what does all of that free will acting upon itself create and I do think you can get to a scenario pretty quickly where god would have to be coercive all the time to to you know. To interact on a lot of the ways that we want him to right? like god would have to constantly be coercive upon his creation stopping the results of free will here and there and there and there in order to do what we're asking and I think you know by nature god's not coercive. So so when god doesn't step in. I have to assume it's because that's um, that's in line with god a noncoercive loving god and when god does step in it's because it doesn't violate any of that and god's able to step in without it being coercive and I don't claim to fully be able to wrap my head around that beyond just a concept. You know. Um, because I don't know I don't know free I don't know all the strings of free will I don't know all the prayers and all the things but there's I don't know if we talked about this on the podcast yet. But Thomas J Ord is a theologian that I become friends with over the years he's written a number of really interesting books. 1 of them is a book called god can't and.

37:59.55
Jeremy
He makes the argument that there are you know the you know the the dui that leads to a car accident. Why didn't God stop it. He would say that it may have been in fact God couldn't stop it because it would be coercive against free will for God to have stopped that and so that's a real.

38:07.90
forestandtrees
Um.

38:18.32
Jeremy
Interesting line of thinking you know gets into what's called process theology to kind of ponder. Okay, what would that look like and I'm not sure I'm still so working through some of those ideas I'm not sure if I love it or if I really don't like it and I'm not sure if it's Encouraging. You know if you find out you have Cancer. And God maybe can't Heal. You is that more encouraging or less. You know I don't know um and so I'm a little bit up in there on that but I remember having lunch with them one time and I was like well how does this theology affect the way you pray because you know if I get Cancer. And I believe that maybe God can't supernaturally heal me because that would be coercive against free Will what? what am I praying and he basically would say you know as I understood it, you're you're praying you're inviting God into all parts of the process. So that it wouldn't be coercive. You know you're you're inviting God into the cells in my body i'mviting God into the doctors I'm inviting God into the hospital you know and even then it may not produce the the desired result but that's the way you know that he would pray is like constantly inviting God into all things which. Something kind of beautiful about that I guess but but I think this gets this gets into the deep end of the pool where at best you know we're we're we're throwing ideas out that have some theoretical logic to them. But but at any point you go? Yeah I'm not sure that that fully.

39:53.70
Jeremy
I'm sorry fully hold on to that and I would definitely be in that camp.

39:55.90
forestandtrees
Yeah, and yeah I mean I've been thinking about like so the question of natural evil like why is there disease and natural disasters and stuff like that I guess like some people would say theologically that's because of the fall right? because Adam and eve chose to eat the forbidden fruit and that's why. Thousands of years later we're suffering the consequences. Ah which I can get why people would come up with that as an explanation to explain natural evil. It's I don't know is that the same thing as original sin or is that kind of a a secondary.

40:31.37
Jeremy
I think I think original Sin is bunk I do not ascribe to that theology. But I do think there are demonic forces and you know can a demonic force cause a natural disaster I sure.

40:33.00
forestandtrees
Consequence of original sin. Um.

40:50.78
Jeremy
Would have no problem you know, attributing that now that probably sounds total. Ah, ancient near East of me to to make that argue it. Um or I could say yeah you know God has created um a creation that has certain.

40:56.75
forestandtrees
Month.

41:09.59
Jeremy
Limits to it and you know there are there are parts of it that break down because of things that we do and you know who knows how all that plays out I don't know I mean you get into some mysterious stuff here that I don't think anybody has a great explanation for I think he goes. Back to you know what is God causing versus what is God allowing. That's a big distinction to make I think God allows a lot of things that God doesn't cause and I think that's helpful to acknowledge even though you could say there's the same I would say they're not the same. But God allows a lot of things that I think are are tough even for a Christian to make sense of like I would like God to allow less I'm being honest than God seems to allow. But again I think from God's point of View. Just.

41:54.15
forestandtrees
Yeah.

42:01.54
Jeremy
I think God Sees things I don't see and God understands things I don't understand God has connections and and I also think you know we have a very limited sense of of our own ability to fix broken things you know, um if someone dies we have no way to fix that yet I guess you know we're still working on on that. But.

42:19.42
forestandtrees
Um.

42:21.30
Jeremy
You know there's there's just things we don't know how to fix and I think God does know how to fix things that we can't and that maybe post this life that God fixes it you know CSLewis had that idea of heaven working backward that any pain that you experience in this life would turn into a pleasure. For Eternity as God made it up to you which I've always thought was you know pretty cool Idea. So Maybe it's that you know I don't know.

42:47.39
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, ah so many more questions but you know I feel like like I said we we should stray away from the problem of evil because ah it's yeah, maybe maybe some of these answers are are not to be found in this episode.

42:55.15
Jeremy
It cannot be answered.

43:04.90
forestandtrees
All right? Ah so close. Yeah yeah, we'll take another whack at it. You know, maybe we should talk about the book of job in some future season I would love that. That's yeah.

43:06.29
Jeremy
Ah, you you thought we were gonna crack it and in 1 episode. Okay.

43:14.98
Jeremy
Who I would I would I think we I think we dramatically misread the book of job that would be a fun one. Oh you're you're you're calling it right now I think it could be good I'll get.

43:22.90
forestandtrees
Yeah, that that would be fun. Um, okay, cool, cool. All right? So moving on to verse sixteen back back into old testament. We get to dip our toes into some another classic weird old testament story. With Jacob and esau all right over 16 make sure that no one is immortal immoral or godless like Esau who traded his birthright as the firstborn for a single meal. You know that afterward when he wanted his father's Blessing. He rejected it. It was. Too late for repentance even though he begged with bitter tears. So story of Jacob and es saw so wild that I read read it this week in preparation for this question so much interesting stuff that that happens to jacob along the way. But this story about um. Jacob stealing you saw his blessing by deceiving his blind and dying father and taking the blessing. It seems the way the bible tells the story. It seems that god honors this blessing by um, giving him. Giving it to him even though he won it by cheating. Um you know of of course ah, who is it Isaac Isaac who's who's dead who's nearly dead and blind wouldn't be able to tell that his son is deceiving him but god knows all right god looks at the heart when man looks at the outward appearance.

44:54.51
forestandtrees
It seems that god like wanted this to happen from the start because it was prophesied before Jacob and e I were born. The older shall serve the younger and this is a you know Jacob is a very important part of the patriarchy the god of Abraham Isaac and Jacob if I guess like if Jacob wasn't so conniving. It would have been the god of. Abraham Isaac and Esau right? Ah, it does? yeah anyway I yeah I know I've asked you this before if you remember several years ago when you were doing your pixelated series and you did Facebook lives I ask you a question about the Jacob and Esau story I should look that up to see how you.

45:13.83
Jeremy
Sounds very different to the ears.

45:31.92
forestandtrees
How you responded I couldn't find the video but that'd be great if it was out there. Ah but I don't yeah I don't remember what you said at all. So what's what's your reaction to the story and what does this say about the character of God if God is going to reward I Ah jacob.

45:34.70
Jeremy
Nice. Thanks is meaningful.

45:49.26
forestandtrees
For cheating on a technicality.

45:50.70
Jeremy
Well Jeff this is actually part of something much bigger going on in the book of genesis. There's a lot of younger brother shenanigans going on in this book I made a quick list for you. Let's see there are 6 of them that I found.

46:01.49
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

46:10.40
Jeremy
Um, and let me just rattle these through of younger brother winning out something over the older brother. Okay, and again understand in that culture that is not how this worked it was always the older brother got all the good stuff and you know although the younger siblings served the older brother but in genesis you have chapter 4 Seth Overcain chapters sixteenth through 21 isaac over Ishmael 25 is Jacob over Esau 34 35 is Judah and Joseph over their older brothers Ruben Simeon and Levi in chapter 38 you have perez overzera. And under 48 you have ephram over Manasse. That's a lot of people in the genesis lineage that break the cultural norm. Okay, to the point that I would say this is not like a coincidence of like oh yeah, there's.

47:00.50
forestandtrees
Um.

47:05.61
Jeremy
A few times we culturally brookway. No no like something's going on here in this people that god is forming right? This is what becomes the nation of Israel so you have these this kind of like god interacting with this group of people that are going to eventually have this identity shortly after you know genesis. And one of the things I think you can conclude from this is that god is a god of the unlikely and I think it's notable that the underdog if you will the younger brother wins out over the older brother in 6 of these very notable examples that we find all in the book of genesis. And so I would say you know rather than just going what's up with Jacob and Esau take a step back and go that's one of 6 examples we have in this book alone of god doing this and and so I think. That's my first answer like god is doing something there and you can draw whatever conclusion you want to draw from that to me again. it's it's the fact that god favors the underdog and you see that in Jesus who doesn't hang out with all the rich and the powerful and Jesus is for the oppressed for the marginalized for the vulnerable right. But you see that theme being developed already in the revelation of god's character in the very first book of the bible in a very nontraditional way which I just think is cool. So that's part one part 2 I would say I don't think.

48:34.15
Jeremy
That the way it plays out contradicts god's character I think it shows that god is going to fulfill what is said right? So it was said as you mentioned that the older shall serve the younger god is going to make that come to pass and god will make it come to pass you know. However, there's a lot of. Weird stuff in the old testament that god uses for things to come to pass. Um, it also I think is not um god deciding this over and against esa or like coercively against Esau because you have 2 examples in that story where. And you know, chapter 25 it's Esau who dismisses his own birthright. So he's the one that's like I don't care about this, you know and then chapter 26 tells us that he marries 2 hittite women who displeased his parents so esau on his own is riling things up and you know.

49:18.93
forestandtrees
Um.

49:31.56
Jeremy
And and living out this thing so it's not god coercively you know Esau was this you know guy that really wanted to be this no esau is choosing this god's just working within that situation to make it come to pass.

49:47.11
forestandtrees
Yeah, ah right I I understand though kind of um, it seems like a literary device right? like um this thematic thing of of younger brother overcoming older brother also something something I was thinking about the story is like I mean there.

49:58.41
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

50:03.78
forestandtrees
They're twins right? So if if Jacob's the younger brother then he's younger by like 2 seconds so like maybe that's ah you know something of the heart of god of like yeah I don't care about your arbitrary rules about older brother is in charge like they're literally literally the same age.

50:08.20
Jeremy
M.

50:16.77
Jeremy
But again in that culture right in that culture they that still would have been that would have been enough. Yeah I mean that would have been enough to establish the pecking order.

50:26.36
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, ah I don't know Yeah I guess like I can I can buy that of of course this is a theme of of all the bible that. Searches Well Beyond Jacob and Esau is just this idea of like God using flawed people. Um I don't know it's kind of like ah an ends justify the means type of logic right? with like he can get this birth right by by deception.

50:53.14
Jeremy
It would be if God was acting contrary to the nature of God which I would say God isn't so that's say God isn't coercively doing any of this which is where I would I would say it's not and justify the means because God always works within means that are consistent with who God is always.

50:59.44
forestandtrees
Okay.

51:12.91
forestandtrees
Um.

51:12.96
Jeremy
Can be in some unusual ways for sure in ways that we go Wow That's confusing or truthfully ways where God swoops down to a level that you and I would go I would never do that if I was God but God seems to do that. You're like Wow I can't believe you did that. Um, but those are all consistent with the character and the nature of God So I Don't think it's an end just by the means I Just think God has more creativity with the means ah to to create the ends than you and I usually come up with.

51:44.64
forestandtrees
Yeah, so guy's not afraid to get his hands dirty in making his plan happen.

51:48.30
Jeremy
Absolutely well in in especially in the sense of letting the dirt on their hands. You know rub off onto him in particular like their dirt their sin Their brokenness.

52:01.66
forestandtrees
M.

52:06.92
Jeremy
He he willingly accepts that onto himself which yeah god is dirty and a lot of the old testament gets his hands dirty because of their sin because of this relationship with these people which you'd say why would god allow that well that's what we see in Jesus Jesus literally takes on. Sin of the world on the cross like that is what god does that is who god is so I I think these are all precursors to what we eventually see in the person of Jesus.

52:35.99
forestandtrees
All right? Yeah I can buy that. Ah yeah, perfect.

52:37.61
Jeremy
Um, okay, good cause I got a question for you all right? So as we're going through verse twenty five said out to me and I thought of you says be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the one who is speaking. Now. Obviously this implies that god continues to speak to us which I I would affirm. You could obviously say that's not true, but here's my I guess it's a 2 parter for you since you know you give me a lot of complex questions I'm gonna give you ah a double is there any part of you.

53:10.60
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

53:14.85
Jeremy
That keeps listening to see if god is speaking to you like you you say like I don't believe it you know I'm skeptic I've walked away from it. That's not who I am anymore. But but if you're gonna be honest with us. Is there any part of you that you you keep 1 ear open just in case you hear something you see something. That's part one part 2 since you've you know, left your faith in Jesus have you ever had a sense that god was in fact, saying something to you and you had to try to explain it away some other way. But if you're honest, maybe you're like that might have been god but you know and so I'm curious. It could be no. You know on both of those or maybe there's a crack in the door. Jeff let us know what's going on in there.

53:57.31
forestandtrees
Yeah, well I mean I've got good news for you Jeremy I've got both ears open and so you sent me this text you texted me this question last night right and I was I was riding my bike around phoenix and listening to music and stuff and so I got this text I thought okay you know.

54:02.15
Jeremy
Okay, okay.

54:16.21
forestandtrees
Put this to the test I'll I'll take my headphones off and just listen and see what god has to say to me right? some'm writing around phoenix and there's a music festival that was happening last night okay and I didn't have tickets to it and so I wasn't planning on going but I was thinking like man. Kind of wanted to sneak in and just catch this one band so I asked. Okay god what do you think? is it? Okay, if I sneak into this music festival and god spoke to me last night he said yeah go ahead, do it I don't care. Yeah, yeah, so I so so so I snuck in.

54:41.40
Jeremy
Um, this is so great. Really.

54:51.95
forestandtrees
And caught ah part of this band that I want to see and and it was really great, Really fun. Ah you know experience the adrenaline of sneaking in and also just like the fun of the concert and stuff like that and ah ran to another friend there and and said hi and then and I came back that night and I told my wife about it. And she was. You know she kind of reprimanded me is like I can't believe you would do that like you're taking money out of the pockets of this artist that you say you're a fan of so I thought yeah, that's a good point So you know I should support them in some way. So this morning I decided to buy a piece of merch from their website to try to absolve myself.

55:25.96
Jeremy
A tone atone for your sense.

55:30.11
forestandtrees
Yeah, so you know if we're talking about the whole vague feelings kind of thing. Um I think you could say I got God spoke to me I guess but it or could just be my own conscience justifying itself or something or we also.

55:43.53
Jeremy
That's a very Jacobin Esau type story there.

55:47.68
forestandtrees
Ah, or we also talk about you know god speaks through other people right? like maybe I'm I'm the corrupt one and my wife is the the voice of reason here saying like no this was actually a bad thing that you did so that was not god that was yourself talk ah all right? So so that was just last night ah

55:58.92
Jeremy
Nice.

56:06.17
forestandtrees
More more broadly to try to take your question a little bit more seriously I would say that what I was talking about in my first question was was something that was like kind of pushing on my conscience for for years I suppose when I like as we talked about before I used to work at a megachurch. And I always felt ah somewhat morally conflicted about this like is this actually what god wants for me like ah, it's for people who've worked at a church I'm sure they're familiar with this feeling of disillusionment. You see how the sausage is made as they say you see yeah the just. The ways that when you're working in a church you have to just run it like a business. You don't necessarily um, do things as the spirit leads. You're more like chasing trends and just trying to like get people in the door with these gimmicky design things and stuff I was a graphic designer at the church. Um, anyway. So I always felt. Conflicted about it and ah you know it's part sometimes I was feeling like maybe this is like bad for my faith to be here. Maybe this is why I'm not fully connected to Jesus because like I'm I'm sold out right? I'm like a pharisee I'm living this comfortable middle class evangelical life. Ah, it and so like maybe that was god prompting me to say like yeah you need to not work for a church anymore and now that I'm outside of the church I've kind of like opened myself up to all of these questions I'm reminded of this quote from Upton Sinclair

57:40.59
forestandtrees
Says it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him, not understanding. It. So I have found that quote to be so true in my own life because there was always a part of me that wanted to stay at the church and keep this job because like you know we live in a capitalist. Society. It's it's tough to make a living. This is a nice stable job where as a steady paycheck. You know what's expected of you and it's easy to some extent and so that that forced me to like keep some of the blinders on of like not questioning my faith fully anyway, fast forward couple years later not working in the church anymore. And I used to like get paid to make Christian graphics and feel kind of bad about it now I'm choosing to create to make this podcast and create all these graphics about christianity and wrestling with these questions and stuff on my own time. Not getting paid for it. So maybe this is god like asking me to start this podcast and like reexamine some of these things I don't know. Yeah, but that's my answer to your question.

58:42.40
Jeremy
Who I like that so you use you're still making room for some mystery there Jeff.

58:54.27
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, yeah, always room I feel like ah I'm I'm kind of ah an empty vessel at this point right? like I wouldn't say I'm fully atheist necessarily I'm I feel thoroughly agnostic. Um.

59:11.53
forestandtrees
I you know I I made a video about the whole sunk cost fallacy like is so is the reason I'm making this podcast because I just feel like I invested so much time and energy into christianity that like it has to be true I want to find a way for it to be true and we got a comment on our Youtube channel of someone saying. Hey if you if you want the truth like why not read the actual truth which is the quran the actual revelation of god that was ah a Youtube comment which I thought yeah, that's actually like a perfectly reasonable um thing to suggest right? if I read the bible. The bible didn't do it for me. Why go back to the bible. Why not explore another religion and I don't know. Maybe it just seems like too much work to start over from scratch at this point or maybe it truly is like the christian god pulling me back in. Yeah I don't know what do you think.

01:00:01.64
Jeremy
What I think is interesting in listening to you share that and this is what I appreciate about you, you know christians tend to have this like stereotype of you know the atheist or the skeptic or whatever you know as this you know person with an agenda. And all this and you know I know you? but ah, you know also I think you can just hear your heart in this like you you don't and you know you're trying to find truth you're trying to figure out what makes sense and you know at the end of the day it used to be christianity and right now it's not and that's not the thing that makes the most sense to you. And I just appreciate that and you know the fact that you as a skeptic or atheist I think I call you an atheist even if you won't claim it right now. Ah you know you, you're you're spending each week reading the bible and doing a podcast about it you so it's it's like.

01:00:44.10
forestandtrees
Okay.

01:00:57.25
Jeremy
Which might be more bible reading and study than most christians are doing and I just I don't know I find that very interesting. You are an open vessel. You are you know, interested in the conversation and learning and asking good questions and pondering. You know some answers that may be good and some you go I don't know about that one? um. And I I just I think it's cool and that's why you know when I when I see those kind of verses I just think of you. Ah, and I I appreciate going along this journey with you and hearing you react to that and I can imagine know if I ever if I ever walked away from my faith which I can't. This moment imagine doing. But if I ever did I think I would have a similar journey to yours where it's like there's just some part of me that you know longs for it and and you know has been forever shaped by it and I've had to walk away for much of the christianity that i. Developed over the years and have had to rework a lot of that you know in the person of Jesus which is where a lot of my ideas come from and why if you know christians are listening to this. They're going. Yeah some of these ideas are different than than you know the the way I would answer it. Um, it's because of you know a similar journey trying to trying to hold on to what I think is true and you know for me I have studied other religions because that's the way I'm wired. It's like I want to know? Okay, what's give me your best claims as to why this is true and.

01:02:27.81
Jeremy
You know it doesn't take me long getting into the study of those before I I hit some major roadblock that I'm like yeah Mike and I couldn't wrap my header on that one or that one just doesn't make sense or I'm just not drawn into There's no beauty in that to me that draws me in whereas I look at the person of Jesus and. I would say there is something supernatural that that pulls me, you know to use your star wars terms is a tractor beam that has been pulling me my whole life even in you know seasons where I've been ups and downs and I love the idea that you're still on the tractor beam. Just a little further out.

01:03:08.90
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm just a distant distant tie fighters lost his way. Um, okay, so just to say something about like studying other religions and not feeling the same poll I I can definitely relate to that I I've not. Studied islam very much. Admittedly, but you know like any good deconstructing millennial I've delved into buddhism a little bit. Um and it's interesting like thinking about like the the 4 noble truths and stuff like but yeah, logically they make a lot of sense and I yeah I think like a lot of the. Buddhist sayings and teachings seem like really beautiful and interesting and you know like not that far off from kind of the peace. Love Jesus stuff that I'm also attracted to. But yeah I do feel like when I'm trying to read this stuff. It's it doesn't feel as intuitive to me right? like it feels like it's more work to try to make these these teachings make. Logical sense in my brain which like that could be like the pull of the holy spirit as you're saying you know I tend to think it's probably just my upbringing my conditioning the fact that I was raised with this christian worldview. That's why I see that as kind of the default worldview and I remember 1 time I was listening to.

01:04:13.97
Jeremy
Right.

01:04:20.94
forestandtrees
Secular buddhist podcast trying to learn all about secular Buddhism I thought maybe this is the best of both worlds you could you get all of these teachings and practices. But you don't have to believe in a supernatural god and then at one point the the person doing the podcast said. So. In light of this practice now you cannot be mad when you're in traffic and not have road rage anymore and that's what made me stop listening to the podcast because it reminded me so much of what so many Christian pastors talk about like road rage is always their go to ah like teaching element example of like. Because I have Jesus? No I'm not as angry in traffic anymore and I don't know it just made me feel like wait. Okay for like Jesus didn't die on the cross to stop road range right? like this just feels like I don't know it feels like such a lame thing to me to like. Ah. I don't know uses an example of life change when we're talking about cosmic meaning of the universe here I don't know if you have thoughts on that.

01:05:18.73
Jeremy
Right? I totally agree I actually I it's funny. You mentioned Buddhism I definitely have been drawn at times to concepts in Buddhism and the way I've kind of described it as I think buddhism is like a great setup. For christianity. Um, you know if someone were starting from scratch it almost like hey starting buddhism get as far as you can until you hit a wall and then I want to introduce you to Jesus and that's kind of kind of like prime the pump for because there's a lot that I really like about you know, Buddhism and.

01:05:49.92
forestandtrees
Um.

01:05:55.47
Jeremy
I think I've shared before but 1 of my one of my most powerful prayer experiences of my life I was meditating with buddhists and you know their whole goal was to rid their mind of everything and so I spent like we were meditating for an hour in silence I I think I spent like 40 minutes doing that.

01:06:03.49
forestandtrees
Ah.

01:06:13.79
Jeremy
And then I got to this point where I had done it and I was like now what like this is your end all goal like so what you know and I just was like now what and that's when you know I felt like Jesus very.

01:06:20.36
forestandtrees
Um.

01:06:30.00
Jeremy
As close to audible as I've ever heard wasn't audible but as close as you know, just very loud voice in my head after 40 minutes of silence and literally trying to swat all my distracting thoughts away with the buddhists. Um, you know Jesus is like hey I'm I'm still here and just have this really beautiful encounter. And I always thought hey man there's there's there's definitely elements of buddhism that are are good. But I think it falls short anyway I think that's where you get the now you know now avoid road rage was like well they don't have anything more compelling right to draw you to. But that's why going back to your question. I'm not interested in principles I'm not interested in just a good you know do this in your life I'm interested in the person of Jesus and there's no other religion out there that has offered me anything that.

01:07:10.62
forestandtrees
Um.

01:07:24.31
Jeremy
To me and again you could say this is my comfort and my background I totally get that argument nothing as compelling to me as the person of Jesus and that's why I continue to be a Christian I'm you know I'm ashamed of much of christianity today I'm ashamed of much of.

01:07:29.18
forestandtrees
Um.

01:07:40.50
Jeremy
What christians believe and what christians do and you know there's definitely times I want to separate myself from that I just can't quit Jesus and and that ties me back into this ragtag group. You know I think it's ah, Shane Claiborne said you know the church is like Noah's ark you know it. It stinks on the inside. But if you leave it, you'll drown and I kind of I feel like yeah okay ill I'll be a part of this thing. It stinks at times but I do believe Jesus is inviting us into something beautiful and apart from that I think I would drown I I would not know how to. To do this without Jesus.

01:08:19.85
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, beautifully said and I yeah I resonate with what you're saying too of like the kind of the view of like what's the end goal here right? like as as far as I understand the concept of Nirvana it's like just resting in the nothingness versus the the christian view of heaven is is not nothingness. It's.

01:08:36.88
Jeremy
Right? right? A profound somethingness I like that phrase let's clip that that's good who no not Abi lobby gosh.

01:08:39.46
forestandtrees
Profound somethingness so I can see oh that's that's a very key difference there. Um, okay, great. Oh yeah, yeah, put that put that on a Hobby lobby board in your kitchen.

01:08:56.52
Jeremy
Can't quit hobby lobby Jeff come on not all christians shop at hobby lobby.

01:08:59.30
forestandtrees
Last question verse not yet. ah ok ah verse 57 since we are receiving a kingdom that is unshhakeable. Let us be thankful and please god by worshipping him.

01:09:06.59
Jeremy
Ah I'm going strong.

01:09:17.45
forestandtrees
With holy fear and awe for our god is a devouring fire. So this speaks to this whole like kind of last chunk of chapter 12 year is talking about the the majesty and the awe and the power of god and it it kind of brings up this old testament vision of the god who is. Um, wrathful and ah would would smite you for looking at him the wrong way and it made me think of the way that you and I are talking throughout this entire podcast. You know we're we're being very lighthearted. You know you're. You're being not a stereotypical uptight evangelical and you're being like well. Yeah yeah, that's a bit really appreciate about. You're really good at like not being defensive and being open to maybe some of my ideas are wrong and I don't have all the answers and stuff like that and of course I can't help but think about like throughout.

01:09:54.90
Jeremy
Thank you.

01:10:10.98
forestandtrees
Um, church history. There were times when you did not have this freedom to just hash out these ideas about god like I said um if we were having these same conversations in public and there were people there to hear us we could get burned at the stake for heresy for. Speculating about differing views of god and ah, again again like this chapter in hebrews is talking about the the holy fear and all so that's my question for you Jeremy what does holy fear and awe look like in our irreverent times.

01:10:46.54
Jeremy
Well first off your your question made me think of a memory in seminary I was sitting in a church history class and they were talking about. You know these different people throughout history and they got this one I don't remember the guy's name but I remember the professor was explaining what this guy taught. And I was like whoa that is great theology. You know I'm like listening to this and I'm like holy cow that is such a beautiful way of saying it and you know like why have I never heard this before like literally was just like just like I could feel myself getting energized listening to the way that this guy understood Jesus and they'll never forget the professors.

01:11:17.73
forestandtrees
But.

01:11:26.43
Jeremy
Said and you know the church in that time ah convicted him of heresy and burned him at the stake and I had this real profound moment where I was like oh that would have been me like for sure that would have been me. For hundreds and hundreds of years I would have been a guy and again if you study church history I mean the church at 1 time would kill you if you didn't believe in transubstantiation and you know we've kind of joked about that. But the previous iterations of the church would literally have killed us because we didn't you know say that it literally becomes the the blood and the you know the body of Jesus. Um, so not saying much but I am grateful that we can have these conversations we can laugh. We can joke. We can be real and our our lives are not in danger so that that is nice. Um, okay, so in that as well. Um. Um, want to push that a little bit more because I'm guessing many people might put me in the irreverent christianity camp. Um because a lot of you know things that I believe or senses I take don't seem to be the traditional holy fear in awe um, type deal. And I was reminded of something that I read in a book called a black theology of liberation which is incredible book written by an american theologian named James Cohn who was black obviously and writes about black theology in America.

01:13:00.70
Jeremy
Every american should read this book I mean it's it's gonna push you. It's gonna make you uncomfortable, but there's so much there. That's really interesting. 1 of the things he says that I think is so interesting and it'll take me a second to explain the context but he says this black theology believes that the spirit of the authentic gospel is often better expressed by heretics. than by the orthodox tradition now again you may react to that go whoa you can't say that but what he's talking about if you read it in context it was often the the christians who were the ones justifying slavery you know for generations in America and using the bible and their faith in Jesus to do it and they were considered orthodox they were the majority they were you know the keepers of the faith and it was this minority group of you know black theologians and people who said no we disagree with that version of god we disagree with a god like that and you know they would have been considered heretics at that time and yet this idea that the spear of the authentic gospel is often better expressed by heretics then by the orthodox tradition is a fascinating principle to me that I I would say has been true in American Church history and I think would be true in a number of other examples throughout you know time and and other cultures as well and so I don't know that if I think.

01:14:32.95
Jeremy
That holy fear and awe mean what we always think that they mean and that you know we need to constantly fit in and have the proper reverence I think it's more on. Yeah, a sincerity of. The way we interact you know is this a hobby for us is this I go to church on the weekend I look the part or I'm doing these 5 principles therefore I am this versus? no I sincerely am following the person of Jesus and my life has forever been altered because of it. That to me is more of a holy fear and awe It reminds me of chapter 5 in the book of hebrews we already had covered this chapter. But um, you you have kind of a tieback reference to this. It says Hebrews 5 ive seven while jesus was here on earth he offered prayers and pleadings with a loud cry and tears. To the one who could rescue him from death and god heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for god so jesus here is used as this example of someone who had a deep reverence for god and god hurt him and again I think what's at stake here is the sincerity. The. The conviction. The sense of you know, rather than I fit the mold or I look the part or I'm doing this in any you know, right? or wrong way and a lot of this is probably cultural to you know and a shame culture or an honor culture or all these other cultures this is gonna culturally play out so I'll just all land on this.

01:16:04.30
Jeremy
What I think is more helpful is to say okay, how do I practically do that is just kind of what your question is like how do we? How do we know? how to follow god like that I go back to the beginning of this chapter which I think is incredibly practical. Let us run with endurance the race god has set before us. How do I do that first 2 we do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus the champion who initiates and perfects our faith. So how do I how do I know how to do this I keep my eyes on Jesus he has initiated this faith in me and he is the one that is perfecting it in me and and what I need to focus on what. But fear holy fear and all look like is for me to keep my eyes on Jesus. That's the best way I know how to do it.

01:16:50.42
forestandtrees
Yeah that's a great answer. Ah when when you were talking you made me think about kind of this um, the history of the church and has always this kind of pendulum swing back and forth between like reverence through ceremony and tradition. Versus like the informality of kind of the nondenominational church where it's like you know you can wear t-shirts and rip jeans and it's because like you know god looks at the heart. It's all about your your personal interpretation of things versus you know, like the more traditional orthodox Catholic Church would be like no no, no, you're you're being. Disrespectful. It's all about the tradition and then the critique of that is like well this is just like empty tradition. Um, yes, that's fascinating to think about. There's kind of yeah just the idea of reverence and respect is a very kind of open to interpretation concept.

01:17:40.75
Jeremy
M.

01:17:41.59
forestandtrees
I would say Yeah yeah, okay so do you think this podcast is ah is reverent and awful enough.

01:17:52.34
Jeremy
I would say in the way I'm understanding it and describing it I think it's incredibly reverent and there is a sincerity and and I would say not just on my side a sincerity in the conversation. You know you're not coming to these questions. Flippantly or to make a point or to win an argument. This is a genuine Conversation. You're interested in which is you know The only reason why I'm interested in having it with you. You know I don't like we've talked about I have no desire to try to win a debate or you know prove my skill as an apologist of.

01:18:25.13
forestandtrees
Um.

01:18:28.25
Jeremy
You know I can counter every blow and you know I've I've had a little bit I think tongue in cheek but a little bit of criticism of you know why aren't you trying to you know convert Jeff and why't it's like and again we talked about converting a few weeks ago. But I just that's not.

01:18:42.60
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:18:46.92
Jeremy
I just think we have such a small view of christianity sometimes and a small view of god and to me this whole conversation that we've been having is a reverence to god of what we're we're trying to make sense of this and we don't always understand it and we don't always see it and we don't always experience it and to be fair. Jesus you're not physically in front of us for us to look at and talk to so there is a mystery here. There is a supernatural element that cannot be explained and how you do that without doubt and without faith and without questions I don't know but I would like to believe. The goal of this podcast at least what I've tried to do in answering very good questions that you've asked each week is to keep our eyes on Jesus to keep going back. That's why I love the book of Hebrews. It's all about the person of Jesus and you know I believe Jesus is initiating and perfecting our faith in the midst of our own. Journeys and brokenness and Disillusions and all of it and I love it.

01:19:46.88
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I mean I appreciate you coming along the journey with me going back to the the character of jacob of course he has the story where he wrestles with god and I remember several years ago when I was you know when I was selling my soul to the man by working out a.

01:19:57.95
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

01:20:05.48
forestandtrees
Corporate nondenominational megachurch we had an interfaith dialogue where we brought in um, ah muslim imam and a jewish priest to have like this interfaith dialogue thing and something that the jewish jewish Rabbi said was um, you know Jacob was renamed israel because he wrestled with god so like what it means to be a true israelite is to.

01:20:25.20
Jeremy
M.

01:20:25.39
forestandtrees
Wrestle with the text and ah you know I mean maybe the the phrase wrestle with the text has become a little bit overused with it's it's using a lot of sermons but I really appreciate that concept of of like not never finding the truth but just trying to figure it out through. Ah, wrestling to use the Cliche again.

01:20:44.35
Jeremy
Well even Jesus you know he saw with disciples he would he would say something and then he would ask you know how do you read it and that's I always was so fascinated by like Jesus is asking them how they read. That's the scriptures like shouldn't he just say no here's the right answer but he didn't.

01:20:50.69
forestandtrees
M.

01:20:57.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

01:21:03.25
Jeremy
You know he's like engaging in the mystery with them. How do you read it? How do you make sense of it. You know and then they invites them into well here's what it means to me or here's what I think it's saying and I think Jesus continues to do that with us today.

01:21:16.11
forestandtrees
That is interesting. Yeah I like that? Yeah, maybe maybe Jesus actually enjoys this podcast and is glad that we're doing it what a thought? Okay, great. Well yeah, thank you as always for talking to be Jeremy. Ah.

01:21:23.00
Jeremy
I Think he does.

01:21:32.72
forestandtrees
Hopefully the listeners have enjoyed the journey with us as we walk the earth and navigate the book of hebrews. We're down to our last chapter next week next week is chapter 13 and it's going to be the end of the season and we're going to. You know, come down on the final.

01:21:40.87
Jeremy
Almost done.

01:21:51.25
Jeremy
Go out with a bang.

01:21:51.39
forestandtrees
Thoughts we're gonna figure it all out and and it's gonna be great. So hope you'll join us for that and we'll see you in chapter thirteen next week