Hebrews 11 - Faith and Martyrdom

This podcast is fun but it’s not Cinema! We take a slightly more serious and emotional turn as we deal with some big topics in chapter 11.

Topics
Is Faith a Virtue?
Can Atheists please God?
Noah’s Ark - How do you teach problematic passages to children?
Could you come back to the faith without evidence? 
Is it dangerous to romanticize and celebrate martyrdom?

Silence the Book
Silence the Movie
Philip Goff Secular Christianity 

We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at ​​forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook

Transcript

00:03.49
Jeremy
Hey everybody welcome to the forest and the trees we're back for a doozy of a chapter chapter 11 in the book of hebrews I am Jeremy and I'm here as always with my quotable friend Jeff Kane

00:21.15
forestandtrees
It's not cinema. It's a podcast that was a reference to the great director Martin Scorsese did you

00:23.28
Jeremy
What is it? Oh okay.

00:34.50
forestandtrees
Remember when he said that about the Marvel movies how they're they're fun theme park rides. But they're not cinema. Okay I watched silence last night. Um in preparation for this episode because we're going to talk about martyrdom later down the road. So.

00:37.59
Jeremy
I I miss that.

00:47.22
Jeremy
I Read the book silence and was deeply disturbed by it and had no desire to watch the movie. That's my honest take on that.

00:55.81
forestandtrees
Um, it's it's heavy stuff. Yeah I watched it in the theaters several years ago when it came out. Do you remember this Jeremy right after I saw it in theaters I went to. Chick -fil-a because I was getting the full christian experience and you were there with your family. Do you remember this? Yeah, it was. It was totally random that I just bumped into you wasn't planning on meeting you or anything.

01:14.93
Jeremy
I was at chick-fil-a no I don't. Was that.

01:23.69
forestandtrees
And I told you I just came out of the movie and I was still processing and you told me you read the book but didn't want to see the movie.

01:27.33
Jeremy
You know what? I vaguely remember this now that was that was podcast foreshadowing. We didn't know then that these years later we'd be talking about and our our stances would be the same. That's yeah, that's that's heavy stuff so we'll.

01:31.98
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, exactly it was meant to be.

01:40.57
forestandtrees
Truly exactly.

01:47.19
Jeremy
We'll get to that at the end. That's we can't kick off the podcast with that that's too much and that's too much so today in hebrews eleven we're gonna look at whether faith is a virtue. We're gonna consider if it's healthy to believe things without evidence. We're exploring whether atheists can please god.

01:48.52
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

02:05.72
Jeremy
We're wrestling with how to teach the old testament to kids and finally we're gonna ask whether martyrdom is something we should desire hebrews 11 as many people will know is considered the hall of fame of the faith. It's a rather interesting list. But Jeff I just want to point out one of my faves. Ah, and and this is I think helpful for people who are new to the bible or new to the old testament story trying to make sense of it all verse 31 is is awesome because verse 31 puts someone in there that we would not likely expect it says it was by faith. That rehab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey god for she had given friendly welcome to the spice which is the author's way of saying she lied and deceived her people and god liked it. She ends up in hebrews chapter 11 rehab the prostitute I think that's pretty cool.

03:11.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, cool story I Mean great example also of someone who's a non israelite right? Who's counted among the the the good ones in the old testament I suppose Ah mm.

03:17.46
Jeremy
Neho.

03:22.54
Jeremy
Which I think is super cool and encouraging. You know, a lot of people read the bible and assume this is like holy people and other people that you know god chose. But if you get into the nitty gritty. It's ah it's got some some stuff in there that you're like wow okay and chapter 11

03:40.74
Jeremy
Includes that and I had a friend my friend Landon who is up to date listening to the podcast up to this point sent me a Texas week and he's like I can't wait to hear what you guys do with chapter 11 and I was like oh man, why and he said that he he listens to it. Our podcasts on his morning jogs so Landon when you're listening to this run faster. That's just it's my urge to keep keep it up run faster but Landon set me his own questions which we don't necessarily need to to go into because Jeff I want to give your your questions adequate time.

04:05.75
forestandtrees
Yeah, keep it up.

04:19.10
Jeremy
But I think this helps set the stage for how complicated chapter 11 is so here's just 4 questions from Landon that again, we're not gonna dive into necessarily but set the tone for how how much is going on here number one. How come barrack is mentioned but not deborbra or gill. Yeah.

04:37.59
forestandtrees
M.

04:39.80
Jeremy
Ah, question number 2 jeha makes it the guy who sacrifices his daughter I share I share this? okay.

04:44.17
forestandtrees
I I was I was tempted to point that one out as one of the questions. But I thought it's such a passing mention that I'll just I'll let it slide.

04:53.10
Jeremy
Those very gracious of you Jeff number 3 Samson is literally known for just being a killing machine fair point number 4 David wasn't allowed to build the temple because he was covered in blood. And then land it concludes just some strange people to lift up as the ones we should emulate or at least admire their faith or view of god to which I say yes Landon I agree ah hebrews 11 even's weird and I don't know that.

05:31.94
Jeremy
I don't know that I necessarily have a way to make it all make sense today. Jeff I'm just gonna I'm just gonna put that out there up front I don't know where where this is gonna go I don't love all of the references of 11 and as a christian who does believe this. It's hard and and as I was.

05:36.40
forestandtrees
Wow.

05:50.81
Jeremy
I was stewing on that reality I came across a quote from John Calvin John Calvin was talking about hebrews 11 and he said this said there was none of them whose faith did not falter in every saint there is always to be found something reprehensible. Nevertheless. Although faith may be imperfect and incomplete. It does not cease to be approved by god there is no reason therefore why the fault from which we labor should break us or discourage us provided. We go on by faith in the race of our calling which doesn't necessarily. Appease all of my tensions but I do like the way he redirects it to say any 1 of us who would make any list of anything does not mean that we don't also have plenty of things you could say yeah, but what about this right. And and so I take some encouragement of that of yeah we have a hall of fame the faith of some pretty messed up people that god still used and seem to find a way to put faith in god even though, if you go back and read all these stories. Ah there's there's some problematic things in there. So.

07:06.14
Jeremy
Jeff that sets the stage I'm already I'm limping my way into chapter eleven here we haven't even got to your questions yet and I'm I don't know I don't know how I feel how are you feeling? Jeff.

07:15.76
forestandtrees
Wow I feel like I've got you on the ropes I feel like feel like Jake Lamotta and raging bull right now? Um, yeah, but landed. Thank you for writing in it sounds like we could use you on the podcast I think with our powers combined. We could just finish Jeremy off for good.

07:17.76
Jeremy
I.

07:33.33
forestandtrees
Incredible.

07:33.62
Jeremy
And Landon sends me quite a few theological texts every week so between him and you I am ah I'm tired. No I I don't I just have therapy sessions with landed.

07:40.61
forestandtrees
Yeah, do you have a secret podcast with Landon that's gone. Yeah on the side. Yeah yeah, okay, well that's yeah, that's great. Love that. Um. Yeah, there are quite a bit of old testament kind of classic bible stories referenced here honestly I felt like it's too much in 1 chapter, it's an embarrassment of riches I feel like there's so many different stories I could have asked about um but I feel like I don't have time because there's also other really big theological topics I want to ask about. So we'll we'll get back to the old testament stuff in a couple questions from now.

08:15.28
Jeremy
This is like a buffet for you. You just had your pick. It's like which dish. Do you want first which plate do you want to go with you've got all your options ahead of you.

08:23.43
forestandtrees
Um, yeah yeah I'm I'm looking my chops as we speak all right? Well let's start right? at the beginning though in verse one ah of chapter 11

08:36.59
Jeremy
Yeah, we we don't get past Verse one? Okay, okay.

08:41.57
forestandtrees
I mean I mean we have to acknowledge hebrews 111 to me this is probably the most iconic most beloved verse in the entire book of hebrews. Would you agree? ah.

08:47.12
Jeremy
So it's pretty good. So.

08:52.98
Jeremy
Oo I I mean there's some gems we've talked about. But yeah, it's a pretty big. It's a pretty big one.

08:55.81
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's certainly the most like Hobby lobby put it on a board wall decorable of all the verses am I right.

09:01.11
Jeremy
Come on Wow last week. It's left behind this week. It's Hobby Lobby I mean this is too much.

09:13.30
forestandtrees
Ah, so let's let's read the verse hebrews eleven one faith shows the reality of we of what we hope for. It is the evidence of things we cannot see. Okay, so this is a verse that as I said I think is very beloved within the christian community. It's It's a proclamation of faith and it's this idea of you just got to believe even when when you don't see it and this is something that I used to believe wholeheartedly now I'm very much in the gray area about is is this a good thing to just believe I'm not so sure. And I believe this is not isolated to this passage I think it's a pretty consistent biblical theme of just the idea that faith is a good thing. Oh Jeremy you're offline hello. Okay, it says offline on my thing but.

10:00.40
Jeremy
So I'm I'm with you.

10:08.31
forestandtrees
Okay, ah, let me check internet. Yeah, my internet's still good. Yikes Okay well I guess so okay I guess I'll keep going ah all right? Where do where do I pick up from here all right? So I used to.

10:17.74
Jeremy
I'm still here.

10:26.91
forestandtrees
In agreement here I used to think faith was undeniably a good thing now I'm not so sure and I think that within the bible There's a lot of examples of faith being faith without evidence being touted as an unambiguously good thing a couple more examples in. In the words of Jesus ah, he says only an adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign when he's talking to the crowd about ah saying no no sign will come to you and of course a great story of doubt with the Apostle Thomas who is just wanting some evidence right? His friends have seen the resurrected Jesus he hasn't seen it and he just wants some evidence. So Jesus appears to him and shows him the wounds right? He gives him the evidence but he leaves them with these words you believe because you have seen me blessed are those who believe. Without seeing me and I always took this to mean Jesus is saying hey Thomas it's ok, it's all right that you needed evidence but you would be better off if you didn't like you would have more blessing or you'd be a better christian or something like that. So. That's my question in light of. Verse one Jeremy is it better to believe without evidence.

11:47.36
Jeremy
It's a good question. Jeff um, yeah and again, this is you know, kind of all over the place as you mentioned so this is I think a huge question. Ah which is difficult to answer so I'm gonna I'm a circle around it from a few different angles and maybe something will stick here. We'll see ah. Want to begin with a quote from a pastor named Tara Beth leach that I think is great to kind of put it in context says the men and women of hebrews 11 didn't acquire faith abruptly or suddenly rather their faith was formed over the rugged journey of life. Their faith was formed. In the process of putting one foot in front of the other which I think is helpful to remember these are all stories of of you know I would say real people. Ah and it wasn't just like they had 1 moment of hey I want you just to believe you know the the sky is is yellow. Just for fun, right? It was something that they experienced it. There's parts they couldn't explain and so in their experiences in their questions in the tension of all of that they had to have faith. They had to figure out what do we do with this story and you know I would say faith is inherently a good thing. And I think you see this with Jesus right? There's many times where Jesus is doing something supernatural and he's pointing out people's faith in the process and I've always I've always found this fascinating that Jesus seems to elevate almost to like the same level as his power.

13:19.65
Jeremy
The role of people's faith in in you know what's happening and so I'll just give you 3 examples from the gospel of Luke real quick to just kind of set the stage luke seven fifty and Jesus said to the woman your faith has saved you go in peace right now I'm choosing to save you your faith. Has saved. You seems to be a ah, pretty big distinction Luke 56 daughter he said to her your faith has made you well go in peace right? So your faith has saved you. Your faith has made you well and Luke 1719 and Jesus said to the man stand up and go your faith has healed you so all these you know. These things that Jesus is doing supernatural stuff and a lot of times in the gospels Jesus is pointing out their faith you know and and what they're doing now. The reality is we all believe in things and I would say even. You you know if you augur the counterpoint to go. Okay, well what is an atheist believe there are things that an atheist believes that you can't necessarily prove everything definitively you can prove a lot of it and then you're you know you're you're putting some faith together and and other things to go. This is what makes the most sense I think the more intriguing thing is what does your faith produce.

14:19.32
forestandtrees
Oh yeah.

14:31.96
Jeremy
So rather than you know how much evidence is a base on or what kind of evidence I think an intriguing way to look at faith is what is it producing in your life and that seems to be again. What Jesus focused a lot on is your faith is leading to this outcome right? that that you're now experiencing and I was thinking about this I saw. Finally saw the movie we'll Conda forever this week have you have you seen this Jeff.

14:54.19
forestandtrees
I Have not no I was too busy watching silence I didn't see it.

15:01.32
Jeremy
Um, I definitely had the more fun movie going experience. So Aconda forever I'm not gonna spoil it. Okay, ah but there's this conversation so much of the movie is about Chadwick in a bozeman's death.

15:08.12
forestandtrees
Um.

15:15.85
Jeremy
Obviously in real life which and they play play in the movie. So it's not a spoiler. That's that's obvious but there's a lot of scenes and they do a really good job of this. But there's a conversation between queen romanda which is you know his mom in the movie and then Shuri which is his sister in the movie and they're grieving him.

15:16.57
forestandtrees
Um.

15:19.56
forestandtrees
And.

15:35.42
Jeremy
And it was interesting I'm listening to this conversation I was like oh this is an interesting way to say it and so Queen Romanda is telling ah you know the black panther's sister. At this point you know she's saying I found your brother in the breeze pushing me gently but firm. So she's describing like he's not really dead. He's still with us and I felt his you know his his hand upon my shoulder all of this and then shuri says he wasn't there mother the pressure that you felt was just a construct of your mind which was like channeling her inner Jeff.

16:09.71
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, wow.

16:11.17
Jeremy
I mean just really like not not real that wasn't real. But then this is where it gets good then the Queen responds basically says like okay, what does your construct of your brother offer you like when you think about him like when I think about him I feel this you know, just gentle nudge on my shoulder. When you think about them what does it do and then she says the slime does it offer you comfort or torment which was an interesting way of phrasing it when you think about your brother does it comfort you or does it torment you because at that. Point in the story. Yes is early in the movie. It's tormenting her. She's not doesn't know how to grieve it doesn't know how to move on so this is not like ah I think about him and you know I'm better for it's like no I don't know how to do this and the queen had figured out how to find comfort even in this and. You know I think that's a cool way of kind of saying like there's a lot of things we can't definitively proof where you could say you know Jeremy this is a construct of your mind and you may be right? You may be wrong. Neither 1 of us can definitively prove that. But to me a ah secondary question is okay well what is this faith producing in my life and and so I think that is intriguing and here's what I would say I don't think there's anything inherently noble about believing something without evidence isolated by itself.

17:40.99
Jeremy
And so ah ah I don't think there's anything like hey I'm just going to convince myself of some bizarre reality like you know, a rabbit can talk to me I'm just going to convince myself of this. You can get ventures of all sorts of weird things. There's nothing inherently noble about that. But when it comes to Jesus. I think there is enough to say it's not without any evidence not without any proof. But if you can take what you've experienced and allow that to you know to help you trust god even more there is something beneficial in that now I want to wrap up this answer with a great quote. Ah, from Greg Boyd in in the book benefit of the doubt and I heartily resonate with this and I suspect Jeff you'll resonate with this as well as he kind of articulates this this tension here. Greg says this I've always wondered why would god place a premium on one's ability to convince oneself. Something is true. What is particularly virtuous about 1 ne's ability to push doubt aside and make oneself feel certain. Let's be honest, some people are naturally good at doing this and some are not but this ability has nothing to do with their character. Is fascinating whether a person is good at this is simply a function of how the person's brain is wired. Some people's brains are naturally inquisitive and others are not I think Jeff one of things you and I have in common. We have naturally inquisitive brains that we that we are constantly rest with this up.

19:16.80
Jeremy
Greg goes on and to be Frank this is where it gets good. The people who are best at convincing themselves that something is true beyond what a rational assessment of evidence warrants are most often people who are are either self-delusional. Or intellectually dull or spiritually dull. Yeah totally I think it's so good like if you are convincing yourself something contrary to all the evidence that by itself is not necessarily a noble thing.

19:35.82
forestandtrees
Or spiritually dull.

19:53.19
Jeremy
And and again you you either are self- delusional or you're intellectually or spiritually dull. What I would say is I think there are good reasons to you know to have a rational assessment based on evidence as much as you can have that Jesus is real and is worth putting your faith in. Now not definitive, not beyond the shadow of a doubt for sure because that's then then there would be no faith but I would say you know we've talked about this before like even you know and I asked you about what do you think happened, you know, ah at creation or what? Ah what does that look like to you you even kind of said like I don't know.

20:26.94
forestandtrees
And.

20:28.77
Jeremy
You know, like ah it could be this or it could be this and you had you know some different theories there which I would say like you're you've entered into the conversation of faith like you're gonna believe something that you you have to say I I don't know for sure. But you know if you choose 1 of them. It would be based on faith and so I think that there's nothing inherently noble about. Hey I especially contrary to evidence or without evidence. But I think the point is if you have something if you've seen Jesus show up that should be some momentum for you. You know to care you through even when you would say I still have questions or it still doesn't make sense. But yeah I I think we've almost. You know, kind of to Greg's point we've almost spiritualized the idea that hey I have no reason to go off this but I'm going to believe it and therefore that makes me holy and I think that's bogus.

21:22.28
forestandtrees
Yeah, So so many thoughts with with all of that. Um I I guess like so I I agree that you need faith for just like base for just any basic belief like we talked about like where did the universe come from and it's like I. You know I have no earthly idea. But yeah, if you have to pick something you're you're putting faith in that I guess like ah, a problem with with religion and christianity is like you're you're choosing something very specific. Do you know what? I mean like um. Ah, when we talk about where the universe come from and I'm like okay yeah, maybe you do need ah an uncaused cause like some kind of creator. So that that would be deism right? Just a very general amorphous picture of God and then the more specific you get within. Christianity Nondenominational Catholic Mormon right? like you can you can get much more specific in terms of doctrine and and things you're required to believe um and you know I think you probably have a more open theology in terms of like what what is and is not acceptable doctrine.

22:15.54
Jeremy
Right.

22:33.88
forestandtrees
But it still is like somewhat tied to like the I don't know the teachings of Jesus right? or the the scriptures even though you have some wiggle room with with what the bible says is that correct mm.

22:43.45
Jeremy
I would definitely say it's tied to the person of Jesus absolutely and you know if I'm wrong I'm wrong on that you know where I definitely put I I would say I put all my eggs in that basket and then I figure out based on that you know what do I believe about the bible. What do I believe about.

23:01.69
forestandtrees
Um.

23:02.88
Jeremy
You know this and that and so yeah I would I would agree I think this reminds me you know when I was a lead pastor I had to help our church navigate. You know, like our what we believe page on their website and fun fact. The reason why is someone someone in our church pointed out based on 1 of my sermons that.

23:12.90
forestandtrees
Yeah.

23:22.27
Jeremy
I Didn't believe one of the statements on our churches. What we believe page and they were right I I didn't believe it and so I went to the elders I just said hey this is ah this is a funny conversation. Um.

23:26.68
forestandtrees
Oh no. Ah.

23:38.69
Jeremy
We got to figure out what to do with this because I said we have this line on the website. You know that was written long before me and I said I don't agree with that line and and these are non non nonnessential right? You like like you say drilling down into the weeds and and I was just like look. Do we do? We want to die on this hill because then we got to figure out what to do with me or you know do we want to.

23:44.96
forestandtrees
Mmm. Yeah, like the apostles creed kind of stuff.

23:58.50
Jeremy
Maybe take a step back and say it doesn't need to be so specific and that's what we ended up doing at that point you know, um and I think it's interesting you you point this out because there is almost this desire in christianity to drill it down more and more and more and more and more. And I don't know what that is or what that's from maybe it's just the desire for certainty in our life that you know christians certainly have um but when you you know when you say to someone like hey like there's there's not a ton of essentials to be Christian right? like of actual things you need to believe? um.

24:35.28
Jeremy
And truthfully the older I get I think the smaller that list has become in my life of like yeah, it's really about Jesus and you know you can get a lot of other things wrong. Um I don't know that it matters as much as we think it does now again I think doesn't mean all of them are equally valid or true I just think. We all can are convinced. We're right on every opinion we have you know and probably most of them. we' not right on and the the challenge is we don't know which one we write on which one or wrong on and you know so you kind of just I think have to hold your beliefs loosely and go I don't know. But um i. This is where I would push on your argument. A little bit is I think it can kind of be a cop out to say well I'm just not gonna choose anything that that way I avoid the problem. Yeah mean because it's like well if you if your argument was I'm not gonna you know I have 5 and again I don't know how many you would say 5 credible ways to justify how we all got here. You know 5.

25:27.00
forestandtrees
M.

25:32.77
Jeremy
Possible scenarios and I'm equally fine with all 5 if you don't choose to follow any of those 5 I don't think that's necessarily inherently any more noble than the person who says I'm going to put faith in something even though I can't definitively prove it. So.

25:48.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, well and when you talk about cause of the universe I don't know if that has a lot of like daily life applications right? Like if I'm a follower of the big bang versus a follower of the multiverse or something like that. Ah, you know what? I mean. Like that. That's not the same as choosing which which religion you believe in in terms of your day to day behavior.

26:10.45
Jeremy
Sure but you know you think that that shapes fundamentally at ah at a deep level like what options you even make available for God so.

26:17.44
forestandtrees
What options you make available I don't know because because Christians have found ways to like make the big bang and evolution fit within the bible even though the bible does not teach evolution really right.

26:20.27
Jeremy
So like I I.

26:35.22
Jeremy
Yeah I would say the the bible doesn't really teach into these theories. Um, you know I think but I would say like from a Christian point of view I would say you know of my options if it's big bang then god created the big bank. You know if it's evolution then god started evolution like.

26:35.91
forestandtrees
Yeah.

26:46.83
forestandtrees
A.

26:51.35
Jeremy
That's how I would say like I can make sense of you know, putting it all back to a creator. But I think you know some of those like is it a big bang without a creator or big bang with the creator like those are 2 dramatically different conclusions that I do think you know. If you're making room for there's something beyond us versus hey I'm going to scientifically explain this away as pure chance I think that does necessarily open certain doors and close other doors for other things you're going to believe right.

27:24.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I think um, not to go back to the veganism. But I think that's kind of um, a conclusion that has followed from from lack of faith like we talked about this several episodes ago. But the idea of the bible teaches that man is set apart. From the animals and then if you if you believe in evolution then there's no reason to believe that mankind is special or is um, you know has authority over the animals that kind of thing. Um and in terms of like the the end of the world and like. Self-destruction and climate change and all of those things as well. I feel like that that like what you believe about like God and his plan for the universe has implications in terms of like the fate of the planet right.

28:15.61
Jeremy
I Think it has more implications than you're implying. No I Just I think I think you're you're trying to distance yourself from saying I can believe this and it has no no effect on anything else I believe but as you emy brought up veganism like.

28:18.44
forestandtrees
Am I going too big here.

28:32.17
forestandtrees
Yeah.

28:32.79
Jeremy
It's connected right to other things that you're going to believe and I think that's the point I'm I'm trying to say is when you land on anything it then is connected and I think the problem and you know we talked about this the problem with a lot of theology today is it doesn't connect well. The lines don't connect right? So it's like I believe this this and this.

28:46.34
forestandtrees
Yeah.

28:51.30
Jeremy
It's like well 3 and 4 don't play well together so like pick one you know it's like but that doesn't logically um and that's why I think some Christians need to like do a deep dive where some of our theological Answers. Don't all sit well and that was kind of my experience growing up in the church and then. Reading outside perspectives and going hey. Yeah if I believe you know if I believe eternal conscious torment. Um I have a hard time believing God's good and these ideas don't go together. You know? yeah.

29:17.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think of something that's more like applicable to actual life like how about like the the idea of there being ah a plan or a purpose for life right? I Certainly used to believe there there really was like a meaning to life and it was like. To serve God and to evangelize and and worship him and all those things and like if if there is no God I Yeah I agree like the cliche of life truly is meaningless. Um, which which is a tough pill to swallow. And yeah I have certainly felt that loss and I felt that that emptiness. Inside myself so I will certainly give that to religion in terms of it gives it gives you a sense of meaning and purpose in life that atheism does not offer.

30:08.89
Jeremy
Well and I I think again to go back to my earlier point of you know the Wakanda quote like what does it produce in you you know and I think the reality is you can have atheists who are really good people right? and they're not good people because of God they're good people for different reasons. Um.

30:13.32
forestandtrees
M.

30:25.95
Jeremy
And you can have christians that are really good people and they would say they're good because of God and you can have Christians who are really bad people and they're bad because of their views of God and you have atheists who are really bad people who are bad because their views of God So it's a little bit more of like rather than just there's a right answer wrong answer like what is this producing in your life.

30:42.59
forestandtrees
M.

30:45.34
Jeremy
Is it healthy. Does it make you better. Is it a benefit to the people around you or is it self-serving and innerfocused or you know like hopeless you know I mean like I look at some of those I'm like have I didn't have Jesus. I think it would be hard for me a whole lot of other things that I believe or things that I do to find meaning in those. But even the fact that you're connecting veganism to evolution is the point is the only bigger point I'm trying to make of I do think when you land on something. It has a domino type effect.

31:15.18
forestandtrees
M.

31:21.66
Jeremy
Which is why I think it matters what you placed your faith in because it's going to lead you to other things that you're probably going to try to make sense of.

31:31.68
forestandtrees
All right? So I think that's a perfect transition to the second question. Ah, okay, but time out the fact that you're that it says off flying on your channel makes me nervous I'm thinking maybe I should.

31:32.73
Jeremy
And wo nice.

31:46.29
forestandtrees
Stop the recording and start a new one just to be safe just on yours. You have you have like sound bars them both both mine and yours. Okay, okay because yours yeah just it says off line and you're you have a red dot instead of green.

31:47.37
Jeremy
Yeah, okay, it looks fine on my end but I only ever have sandbars on mine because I can't I can't control you.

32:03.73
forestandtrees
All right? So I'm going to stop and restart.

00:00.00
forestandtrees
That is a perfect transition into my next question regarding verse 6 and it is impossible to please God without faith anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him. So what? you just said a second ago was that like there's there's Christians who do bad stuff. There's atheists who do good stuff right? and vice versa and everything in between totally agree with that and this first jumped out to me because it seemed to sort of contradict some of the conversations we had um on previous episodes about. Do you have to believe specifically in the Christian God to to be a good person right here here. It doesn't say be a good person. It says to please God without faith and so it leads me to the question. Um, how do you square this with our previous conversations and can an atheist. Who does not believe in the Christian God Still please the Christian God if he does In fact, exist ah by doing good things without believing in him. Well.

01:06.40
Jeremy
Well done Jeff well done. You have you have teed this up. Well I see I see where you're going with this but thankfully I think this is not as tricky as it appears and the reason why this verse in my opinion. Is subject to you started the verse number at the wrong sentence meaning ah english translators way later came by and said hey verse 6 begins here and verse 7 begins here. This was not the way the authors wrote this. And the reason I say that is because the first sentence of verse 6 I think is a carryover of verse 5 and verse six should begin with a second sentence which is a transition a different thought now backup and I'll explain what I'm saying so verse 6 should be split. The phrase and it is impossible to please god without faith I would argue is a reference back to what was just said in verse 5 which is all about enoch now. Let me read verse 5 for us. It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying. He disappeared.

02:06.69
forestandtrees
M.

02:16.13
Jeremy
Because god took him ah for before he was taken up. He was known as a person who pleased god same phrase. So then the next says and it's impossible to please god it's literally returning back to that thought without faith which is in reference to Enoch. So basically I suggest what the author is saying is Enoch could not have had this kind of relationship with god unless he pleased god or to put it real simply Enoch had faith. That's like the reader's digest like Enoch please god because you can't please god without faith therefore. Enoch had good faith is the point. The author's trying to make in a roundabout way because that this is all back to Enoch because again verse 5 uses the same phrase of of pleasing god in context of Enoch then verse 6 transitional thought anyone who wants to come to him. Now. We're talking about something different if you want to come to god must believe that god exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him now I would actually say ironically I think this verse offers an encouragement to someone who doubts that there is a reward.

03:28.74
forestandtrees
Fun.

03:32.39
Jeremy
In seeking god now think about this if you are certain in your faith. You don't have to do a lot of seeking and in fact, I bet we all know christians who do not seek god because they know everything about god they know all the right answers all the right doctrine they know they can tell you right. They're not seeking anymore seeking implies doubt and implies looking it implies I haven't found something I'm still in a process right? And so I think the second sentence anyone who wants to come to him that part on is about experiencing god not pleasing god. Pleaing god I I believe is just a reference to Enoch saying Enoch had really good faith. That's how he was able to please god but if you want to experience god is it again. This is good news. All you gotta do is believe god exists and that he's gonna reward you for seeking like that's really good news like all right I can believe that. God exists I'm gonna start there right? It's like if you want to experience god that's a good place to start believe god exists. You know if you don't want to experience god don't you don't have to but if you want to come to him which is the way the sentence reads anyone who wants to you got to start there believe god exists and that he's gonna reward you. For seeking after him.

04:47.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, okay like I can see how that works now not now I'm seeing like a whole different question I could have asked about this verse of like wasn't what didn't you know because now you could say like oh it's not working for me now because I don't believe in god right? So that that explains it. What about like you know, three four years ago when I was struggling with all these questions that was a period of my life where I did believe god exists and I think I was seeking him I don't know maybe I wasn't trying hard enough. Ah and and here I am so.

05:20.64
Jeremy
But I I wouldn't say your experience negates anything of this verse and I wouldn't say this first negates anything of your experience I think it's true if it I would say to you Jeff if you want to experience god today I would encourage you start with the premise that god exists and then start with. You know or build on that with the idea that you seeking god there is going to be a reward in that now again, that's super vague. What does that mean I don't know other than I think god meets us supernaturally profoundly right in the seeking and again I think that's like. That's an encouragement to someone like you now again, you might go well I don't want to come to god right now which I would say fine then don't do the next 2 things because this versus saying if you want to come to god this is what you should do and you you would say you did that and I would say well think if if you wanted to keep. Seeking god you should have kept seeking god you know like you didn't need to stop like I would say I'm still seeking god I still have questions I still have things that don't make sense to me, you know? and so I so I believe god exists and I believe he's going to reward me for seeking after him and this podcast is going to be brownie points in heaven.

06:20.31
forestandtrees
Um.

06:36.15
Jeremy
Because we are seeking after God yeah.

06:38.11
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, for sure I'm definitely going to kind of bring up the Rss feed when I get to the pearly gates and feel I was seeking you I had all these questions Jerem even said some of them were good questions. Yeah, it's it's one of the hottest podcasts on.

06:48.94
Jeremy
Jesus have you heard of the forests and the trees we'd like to show you something we are seeking you.

06:57.86
forestandtrees
On Apple right now. It's tell all your friends very very secret sensitive. Ah all right? that makes sense to me. Let's let's get to the old testament. Ah very next verse. Ah so we we just talked about Enoch a little bit very interesting. Strange character. We don't know a whole lot about um how about the character of Noah very famous old testament story in verse 7 it says by his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world he received the righteousness that comes by faith. So I remember you saying something about like the. This verse specifically I think in one of our earliest episodes about how you didn't like the way that this verse is phrased it saying Noah condemned the rest of the world which I can see why it seems strange like wouldn't it be god condemning and even then it's not it sound like helpful with. I don't know. Yeah, it's it's a confusing passage. Ah anyway, so so as I said earlier, there's there's a whole lot of old testament stories that are kind of name checked in this middle section of the chapter and as we talked about there's lots of problematic characters throughout the bible and I feel like.

07:54.11
Jeremy
I Don't love it.

08:12.82
forestandtrees
Many of them. You can explain away by human folly by saying well they're just a sinful human being. That's not on god that's the person who's you know people are imperfect which I get that that makes sense I do think there are a handful of these old testament stories where. God seems to be the bad guy here. So like god commanding Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Some people wouldn't agree that that's the bad thing for god to do I I don't like that story um the passover where god kills all the firstborns who aren't covered with the blood. Ah, drowning the egyptians in the red sea is named specifically and but let's let's just drill down on the flood because that's ah the story of Noah is referenced here and of course that's a very famous old testament story that anyone who's been to Sunday school is probably familiar with. And I've been in tons of conversations where people talk about like you know it's it's very ironic that we teach the story of Noah to kids you know we we do it mostly I think because it has cute animals in it and it's it's very iconic to see the animals sticking their heads out of the ark but ah it has.

09:24.14
Jeremy
The drafts. It's always the draft.

09:27.42
forestandtrees
Yeah, the giraffes so cool. Yeah but it has very very dark implications and not and it's not all on humans. There's kind of like the whole aftermath with Noah getting drunk in the tent and all that stuff like ah that totally makes sense to me to cut that part out. Not show that part to the kids. But the main part of the story where god. Decides to flood the earth and kill everyone except for one family god's kind of the bad guy here right? So that long roundabout way of asking how how do you approach teaching stories like this to kids.

10:03.62
Jeremy
So I teach my kids that god looks like Jesus and that's probably the thing we talk about the most whenever there's a theology question. Um, and you know we we talked about last week the having the sex talk with my kids and you know trying to meet them where they are with. Whatever understanding, they have whatever questions they have so a lot of times you know, um the Sunday school you know story is fine for the kids and they don't have any questions when they do I think is a great opportunity to to get into some deeper theology with your kids and say hey just remember. God looks like Jesus and the people in the old testament didn't know this yet like this is something I think we should teach kids hey they like Noah didn't know that right? The the writers who wrote down the story of Noah didn't know that they didn't know that god looked like Jesus yet and. You know this is ah the idea we talked about this podcast numerous times a progressive revelation I think we should teach kids progressive revelation. You don't have to use the phrase just explain to them. This is a story where as you keep reading. They understand more and more of who god is and then suddenly they realize god looks like Jesus but they didn't know that and so. I remind my kids of this often of like you gotta remember in these stories. They didn't know that god looks like Jesus and so that opens the door depending on where they're at what level of question they have right to get into some of these deeper things and ah you know I also think this is one of the ah I don't know what.

11:33.41
Jeremy
What to call this cautions maybe of you know the the way that we do Sunday school in you know the institutional church. We end up isolating you know any given week is usually like 1 of these stories. And you know it often isn't tied back to Jesus. It's like today we're going to cover the story of Noah you know and it's just like they walk home and hey let me tell you about Noah like that's all that's all they have and I think that can be a little misleading to a kid because you start isolating all of these stories. And you start to equate all of these as equal to you know? Well then Jesus is just another story and on Easter we we hear that story on Christmas we hear about baby Jesus like if each week is just his own story that creates a misleading theology I believe for kids where they don't learn to read the bible. And point it all to Jesus and so you know I think if your kids are attending Sunday school every week. It's a good idea to each week try to redirect them back to whatever they learned how does it help us understand who Jesus is now again I don't think Sunday school teachers are are inherently trying to do this or. Try not to do it I just don't I don't think it's what the focus ends up being I think that's where the confusion comes in right of hey can teach Noah and we're gonna make it happy and then you know as you get older I clearly remember one day like thinking like thinking deeper I'll probably junior high or something like wait a minute.

13:00.91
forestandtrees
Oh.

13:05.10
Jeremy
Stories jacked up. You know I mean like this is like and I was like imagining like truly imagining the story and I'm like there'd be people like clawing at the door of the Ark begging to be let in and no and his family are just like sitting inside listening to these screams and like.

13:20.33
forestandtrees
Yeah.

13:23.55
Jeremy
Oh but god's good. You know it's like what? um now again I've spent years trying to dive into how do I as an adult explain that story and point it to Jesus. And that's tricky to do you know? and um and story of moses and pass I mean some of these stories you're right? God is at service level. It's like a villain character killing everybody and it's like okay how does this look like Jesus like that takes work and you know to be fair, typical Sunday school volunteer. Doesn't know how to do that or have time to do that when they've got you know a room full of screaming third graders right? So that is a little tricky this is where I think parents have to come in. You. You have to actually teach your kids good theology. They're not just gonna pick it up off the streets. You know so I don't know does that that answer how you.

14:00.44
forestandtrees
Great.

14:15.18
Jeremy
How you teach the bible. The dark side of the bible to kids.

14:18.13
forestandtrees
Ah, okay, so just to reiterate So you're saying just just teach it straight and wait for them to ask the questions I get I guess I'm kind of wondering if yeah I guess I'm kind of wondering if we should like reimagine or just like skip that.

14:24.30
Jeremy
Yeah, that's part of it. Well I think.

14:33.42
forestandtrees
That story altogether and teach it as an adult to have the full context of like this is you know, according to your theology. This is like a backwards view of God and his character right.

14:46.36
Jeremy
Right? So what I would say is like okay if I was if I was consulting a a children's pastor of a church who's writing curriculum for the year I would encourage them. How can you focus on teaching kids Jesus throughout a year so what what are you going to use throughout the scriptures and the problem is and you said this Noah is a cool story with great graphics and visuals and it's like let's tell this story you know, but that doesn't necessarily help kids understand how to make sense of who Jesus is right? or how to make that story make sense.

15:14.71
forestandtrees
Hmm.

15:24.99
Jeremy
So I would just say start with the premise let's teach kids about Jesus then work backwards and figure out all right? How do? How do we want to do that. Let's figure that out and I would just encourage you to approach it differently than I think most searches probably do or you know hey a lot churches are buying curriculum and you know they. They make curriculum that sells right? So we're gonna have an old testament. You know, ah hebrews of the faith you know and it's gonna be one weeks moses one week's Noah you know it's like that's like ah that's a typical way that a curriculum writer would do it which I get it from that point of view. But I think if we're trying to raise kids who understand who Jesus is and have.

15:51.41
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

16:02.72
Jeremy
An ability to to think deeper that approach is going to be tricky unless they have engaged parents who are then willing to say hey let's talk about how to point this and again I I've done p suit of ministries for a long time I've overseen children's majors for a long time here's what I would say to any parent. You you have to be the one to teach your kids good theology like you can't expect the church to do it. You can't expect a volunteer to do it. You can't expect anybody else to do it. You're raising your kids to be healthy humans. You have to be willing to enter into these kind of discussions with your kids and again as they're ready and so most of the time in my experience. We get into these theology conversations at bedtime because like I don't know what happens after they take a shower and they're like in pajamas and they relax and they're thinking about going to bed like they start having Jesus questions we're like ah you know dad. How do you How does god do this or you know and.

16:48.28
forestandtrees
Ah.

16:57.61
Jeremy
Like that's the moment like all right? Let's talk about it like let's let's get into this looks like Jesus but um I think we got to be honest, our our way of teaching kids right now isn't necessarily helping them to accomplish this.

17:10.50
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I certainly like remember being Tod Jesus stories as a kid in Sunday school but right they just they weren't as excited you know as like the story of Sampson was probably my favorite because it's like an action superhero story and it wasn't until.

17:22.42
Jeremy
Totally.

17:29.32
forestandtrees
Years later reading it for myself and I sort of reinterpreted it as like oh Sampson's not really a hero here. He's a deeply flawed character. So in some ways I think like maybe it's it's fine to just teach kids this sanitized version of the story and let them kind of develop naturally and and. Come to it with their own questions. Ah yeah, I'm I'm not sure about it. So that's yeah I was curious to hear your thoughts. Also I don't have any kids so it's it's easy for me.

17:59.67
Jeremy
So you're not, You're not in a rush to figure this out before before bedtime tonight. So you're you're okay, ah okay I want to transition with a question for you because there's if if we go in order here. There's a verse just a few down the way a little bit that.

18:01.92
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

18:09.59
forestandtrees
And.

18:17.40
Jeremy
As I was reading it this week made me think about some things that you've shared about your own journey and so I'd like to have a personal moment with you Jeff if if you if you would indulge us. Um, because hebrews 1113

18:24.27
forestandtrees
Yeah.

18:31.89
Jeremy
Makes a pretty compelling argument I think and I'm I'm curious. Your reaction of it. So it says this all these people died referring to the people who had you know, been previously named still believing what god had promised them. They did not receive what was promised but they saw it all from a distance. And welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth so one of the reasons many of the people are commended in the list in hebrews eleven is that they had not fully received what they had hoped for and I would say in particular in light of what we've talked about. None of them had seen Jesus as we have and and so they had still figured out faith still found a way to follow god even though it it didn't all come to fruition didn't all make sense. You know didn't all happen the way they might want it. So here's here's what got me thinking? Do you think. That you could ever go back to faith in Jesus and make room that you may never fully receive what you hope for from god in this life and you know you've shared previously on this podcast. You know your desire for like supernatural miracles and for you know. The tangible revelation of god more in your own life. Do you make room or could there be room that you'd say. Yeah, maybe I could figure out a way to follow Jesus have that and still acknowledge. You might be in the camp of the hebrews eleven thirteen people or

20:03.30
Jeremy
Would you say that is just too fundamentally important to me or big to me I don't think I could get over that.

20:11.10
forestandtrees
Yeah that's a really good question and I've ah thought about it a lot you you texted this question to me and my immediate yesterday in my immediate response was wow this so personal which I don't then I was thinking back of like man I don't know was that personal. Maybe I shouldn't just said that. But anyway so I've been I've been wrestling with it I've been thinking about it a lot this past day or so so I feel like the question is like could I go back to faith if nothing changes right? like if I don't see some kind of miraculous sign or something and so of course it's. Ties into hebrews eleven one with confidence in things we don't see and I would say that I definitely used to have this hebrews eleven one style faith like I used to really think like Jesus was inside Bay Jesus was my best friend and we were having conversations. In my head and that that was like how I saw the world and then when I when I lost my faith it. It was like losing my best friend and I really felt that um so I don't know I'm I'm thinking about all these different like ways I could. Negotiate it right? like for a lot of my twenty s it was kind of this deconstruction period of reinterpreting parts of the bible and my faith and being like okay do I have to be anti-homosexual you know do I have to like be okay with the bible being okay with slavery just all these kind of classic.

21:42.78
forestandtrees
Morality type things like at 1 point I remember just asking myself. Can I be a christian and be a good person like that that was just the question that came to me like can I have both which which of course now I would say yes because I know a lot of good people and I know there have been plenty of. Like very morally good people people who are much better than me who are christians and they've found some way to reconcile it. But again I also couldn't couldn't really reconcile the sort of. You know, stereotypical entitled millennial cafeteria christianity as people call it of like I'm just going to take the stuff that works and leave everything else. Ah so one one more thought on all of this your question reminded me of this podcast I listened to several months ago with a philosopher. Named Philip Gough who identifies as a secular Christian or another term for this is religious fictionalism so this is the idea of someone who identifies as an atheist like doesn't believe. God is real doesn't believe in the miraculous but also still identifies as a christian because they ah find value and meaning in the stories and the communal identity and stuff like that. So I've thought about.

23:12.66
forestandtrees
This a lot is like maybe this is an option for me if I want to be like a secular Christian and some parts of me think um, this is just a terrible idea. This is kind of the worst of both worlds like all of the. The doctrine and you still have to go to church and stuff but you don't get any of the supernatural stuff. So no, this is terrible. Don't take that deal part of me thinks like maybe this is literally what I'm doing right now like this is the life that I live because like I'm saying that I don't believe in god but also I'm like reading the bible every day and. Talking about Jesus all the time and and thinking about all this stuff. So yeah, maybe maybe it's still inside me and I just need to embrace it. But in terms of like if I could go back to being like a you know a real Christian could I just force myself to believe and I would say right now. I don't think I could I don't think it would be intellectually honest for me to just go back without some kind of a sign or something which by the way open invitation god if you're listening right now like you can send a sign anytime you want I'm I'm my eyes are open. Ah. But I I guess I'll say it's possible that maybe this is a phase right? Maybe this is how I feel right now with my current temperament and anxieties and neuroticism and maybe years down the line things will chill out.

24:41.59
forestandtrees
And I'll look back on this period of my life and be like yeah in in hindsight those questions aren't that important and it's okay to just believe so you know it's It's possible that things could change but that's how I feel right now.

24:58.31
Jeremy
That's good I appreciate you sharing that I'm I'm curious. You talk about? Yeah I I feel like a ah ping of sadness when you say you know Jesus was your best friend and you lost your best friend when you when you think back to that.

25:07.26
forestandtrees
Yeah.

25:13.30
Jeremy
You know, do you conclude now that that that was just you know to use the Waconda term a construct of your mind that that you had this best friend and it wasn't real um because I mean I don't know how else you would make sense of that.

25:24.52
forestandtrees
Yet? Yeah that's that's how I see it now for sure I see it as I was at the time I thought I was talking to Jesus in hindsight the way I look at it now is I think I was talking to myself right? which is not. Ah, tear an altogether bad thing necessarily I think you know self relationship and having ah a sense of your own mind and an inner dialogue I think can be a good thing from a secular point of view. Ah. Yeah I mean I mean I meant what I said about the sadness though that it was like ah an emotional loss that I felt and like just looking back on like oh all this all this time was that all for nothing was they just talking to the wind right? so.

26:06.67
Jeremy
Sure.

26:20.64
Jeremy
You know? Ah I've not heard of that termes the secular Christian that's the first I've heard of that but it reminds me of something when I've I've taught on this before but there's a phrase called moralistic therapeutic deism I don't know if you've ever heard this term.

26:26.10
forestandtrees
Secular Christian.

26:36.18
forestandtrees
No.

26:38.30
Jeremy
Um, but that's a way of describing a lot of christianity today where I've described it as like it's it's like the lacroix of christianity where it kind of has like a faint taste of of christianity. Um, but you get you get underneath the hood and there's like nothing there.

26:51.80
forestandtrees
Yeah.

26:57.56
Jeremy
And it sounds a little bit like um, like ah a play on that concept of and and truthfully I think a lot of Christians would would fall into that camp of um.

27:09.65
Jeremy
You know this this idea of like it's christianity light. It kind of has ah a look an appeal of christianity. But it's really just about trying to be a good person to make you feel good. It's not actually wrapped around a supernatural experience with you know the idea of a living God But yeah, that's interesting I I Appreciate. You know, hearing how you're processing this and in real time and in whatever season you're in.

27:35.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, thanks for dealing with me in my angsty thirty s Quarter life crisis here. Ah um, what was I going to say the yeah I'll I'll put a link to the podcast in the show notes because I think it is a very.

27:42.41
Jeremy
We're all, we're all in seasons.

27:53.75
forestandtrees
Interesting perspective. It reminds me a little bit of Jordan Peterson you know who I have mixed feelings about but you know because he's he's very popular with christians but he seems to like not believe in a literal god um, but people will ask him so like did did the flood happen like did the resurrection happen and he'll be like It's not about if it's true. It's about if it's true by which he means like metaphorically true like the the metaphorical meaning is more important than the physical meaning which I think most christians would say like yeah when it comes to the resurrection. The resurrection has to be literally true for it to count.

28:30.14
Jeremy
Well, yeah, we've we've gotten to that conversation previously in the podcast. that's that's ah that's a tricky rabbit hole when you go down. What is what is literal what is metaphorical and you know as I've seen when I post clips of this. You know if you want you want to anger christians quickly. Just say that something isn't literally true. You know in the old testament and you'll you'll get the commenters flying but I would say Jordan Peterson's a great example to me of moralistic therapeutic deism which is it sounds. It sounds very Christian till you start getting down to it and it's like.

28:56.43
forestandtrees
A.

29:04.80
Jeremy
The dude's not talking about Jesus. He's not talking about experiencing Jesus you know it's like that's that's not what he's talking about. He's talking about these ideas that sound christian from afar and you know if you if you again I've read his 12 rules for life or whatever it's called and I'm like this is like a bunch of feel good. Um, just try to explain this without actually centering this narrative on Jesus which to me is entirely missing the point but and I know there's there's a lot of Jordan Peterson fans out there.

29:29.29
forestandtrees
Yeah I would say he he like traced the bible like literature or mythology which I think is like perfectly reasonable way to approach the bible I Just I wish he was a little bit more upfront about that because I feel like a lot of christians. Are a fan of his because he's very slippery when he when it comes to like answering the question of whether he literally believes in this stuff or not. Ah, yeah.

29:53.29
Jeremy
Well because it seems like he spends a lot of his time focusing on how to be a good person and you know which a lot of christians have equated That's what christianity is and I would suggest it's got to be more than that because if it's that's all it is. As Richard Beck said in the book that we you know you and I both read then there is no difference between an atheist and a christian because you can be a good person in either situation. So christianity has to be more than that or else it is nothing and I think that's the problem with a lot of that line of thinking is you're left with oh just be a good person here's. Here's how you be a good christian and I I don't think Jesus was in you know the behavior modification business of I'm just going to get people to to act differently. He he wanted to fundamentally have people experience something that would change them and that's you know him? okay.

30:47.45
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that's cool I agree because I mean yeah I've thought a lot about just the the moral implications of christianity and stuff you know for a long time I was I was thinking like the you know the sermon on the mount is the most profound moral teaching because. It has to be if christianity is true right? and then of course there's the critique of other people had invented the golden rule and said you should love others as you love yourself before Jesus came along things like that. Yeah, ah, yeah, yeah.

31:16.27
Jeremy
Although on that point that's an interesting point because I've I've I've taught on that there's 3 examples that are notable in history um of the golden rule but all 3 of them are set in the negative. Don't do to someone what you wouldn't want them to do to you essentially Jesus' ' big twist on that was he put it in the affirmative due to others what you want them to do to you all all the other examples were were said the opposite way which you could argue is the same thing but I would say jesus is is better than that. But then you have.

31:29.32
forestandtrees
Okay, yeah.

31:45.60
forestandtrees
Yeah.

31:47.74
Jeremy
Jesus gives what some have called the platinum role where he says a new command I give you love one another and you know anyone who's reading the bible is like that's not new. We've already heard that but then he says as I have loved you. So should you love one another which is way bigger than due to others as you want them to do to you. It's hey you need to do to others as Jesus has done for you and I've you know speaking of teaching your kids I've taught my kids that when they talk about the golden rule I'm like no no, don't stop at the golden rule. You gotta do the platinum roll. Well, what's that and you know and my kids. I bet my older kids could quote it to you now like you got to love others the way Jesus loved us right? because like that is I think a better way of doing it. But again you can't you can't do that apart from Jesus, there's no way to moralistic therapeutic deism does not help you with the platinum role.

32:33.20
forestandtrees
Yeah.

32:39.88
Jeremy
You can't do without Jordan Peterson cannot live that out because Jordan Peterson isn't focused on the person of Jesus and how he has experienced jesus and that's I think the difference.

32:48.47
forestandtrees
Yeah, and that's I think that's a good transition to my final question right? because we're talking about laying down your life for others. So let's skip way down to verse 35 but others were tortured. Refusing to turn from god in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection some were jeered at and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons some died by stoning some were sawed in half. So this is a very obviously. Dark and visceral passage of scripture here sometimes I try to listen to the whole book of hebrews in 1 sitting and sometimes I phase out a little bit and then when I get to the line about somewhere sought in half that always grabs my attention and be like oh okay. And need to pay attention here again and it's it's a it's a big topic with martyrdom. It's and I've I've been doing a lot of thinking about it this this week in preparation for this episode somewhat similar to faith. It's something that I used to consider something that is unambiguously. Ah, good thing and now I'm not so sure. So let's see. Ah yeah I remember in like the myspace days were ever on Myspace Jeremy

34:18.73
Jeremy
I I was I had I This was funny I was forced to create a myspace account because I was in Student Ministry at the time I didn't want one and it was like you have to be relevant to the the students and so I had to create one. So I yes I had a myspace account.

34:26.14
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, get to be relevant.

34:36.78
forestandtrees
Okay, yeah, that's rock and roll. So I remember on my in the myspace days I would I would take these quizzes that would ask you all these random questions and oftentimes one of the question was how do you want to die. So I would say for Jesus. Um, yeah.

34:42.92
Jeremy
Oh yeah.

34:51.46
Jeremy
It's an it's in a tense quiz.

34:53.20
forestandtrees
Yeah I know right Um, and I took it very seriously I always thought like that's you know if you have to go somehow. That's the best way to do it and ah another topic about martyrdom is the ah persecution of the early believers that this. Versus talking about that's a huge part of apologetics right? It's a huge proof for the resurrection because people would say why would people die for a lie so they must. They must have sincerely seen the resurrected Jesus and that's why they were so fervent in their faith and they were willing to be tortured and killed. That you know this is a very strong argument of of course there are people of other faiths who have died for for what they believe was right? Um, you know I of course always think about Nine Eleven and suicide bombers and people like that who are. Religious terrorism um is is a product of martyrdom. Of course you could say well that's like an act of violence where these people are having violence brought upon them and then another thing I thought of was buddhist monks who have the practice of. Self-immolation where they set themselves on fire. There was a very famous case of a buddhist monk who was protesting the Vietnam war and set himself on fire in public and more recently there was a monk who was protesting um climate change or just trying to raise awareness for our lack of action on climate change and.

36:25.98
forestandtrees
Practiced self-immolation. Ah so like I said but you know very very heavy stuff for sure and that's that's why I watched silence because it's it deals with this issue of martyrdom and the the complex morality around that so that's my question for you? Jeremy. Is it dangerous to romanticize and celebrate martyrdom the way I believe this passage and just christian culture at large often does.

36:53.91
Jeremy
Such a good question. So yeah, a lot of thoughts on this and you know, growing up similar to you and all you know, similar stories and looking at history looking at other religions you know trying to make sense of it. I thought of the american patriot Nathan Hale his his famous line. You know I only regret that I have but 1 life to lose from my country I think every american has taught that quote and I can resonate with that you know in in the sense of I would love for you know. Everyone dies. So I'm going to die at some point I would love for my death to mean something right? So sure if if my death could be meaningful to ah you know to someone else then then yeah, um I wouldn't die for patriotism I can tell you that I don't I don't think that's.

37:45.84
forestandtrees
M.

37:49.79
Jeremy
Um, necessarily a cause that would would capture my heart or my imagination. Um, and I think you make ah an important distinction. That's very different to die creating violence toward others versus dying in submission. Um, so that others could thrive you know and even the self-immulation doesn't really accomplish that in a literal Sense. You could say take a step back and you know it's for a good cause. But even then I would I would be cautious to say Yeah, but I think that's kind of elevating it pretty high. Um.

38:17.32
forestandtrees
M.

38:27.33
Jeremy
1 of the quotes I really like that I think it's not long, but it really puts it in perspective comes from a guy named Trip York who's an author and he said this christianity when necessary produces martyrs not heroes I like this quote for a number of reasons. Um. Like the when necessary line because I think you can you can get elevated in. You know, ah kind of a an obsession of I'm going to go out. You know in this blaze of glory and so I think when necessary meaning. When when a situation legitimately is presented. Um I hope I would be willing to be a martyr for my faith but I think to the point of your question what we're actually talking far more about I think are heroes. And people who are willing to die to be a hero I think is a huge huge deal and I would say you know the religious acts of terrorism I would put more in that camp they're trying to be heroes of their faith. Ah so they're gonna. They're going to accomplish some huge fee or kill some you know huge number of people and they will be rewarded for that right? That's that's the idea of being a hero far more than it is the idea of being a murder even though it will cost them their life and I think this is one of the drawbacks and again.

39:55.33
Jeremy
I Understand the irony of I just went and saw Wakanda I think it's one of the drawbacks of all of our superhero movies is it instills this idea in us of we all need to be Heroes and um it it puts out the window. The idea of like a healthy normal life or an ordinary life or a life. You know, lived well in obscurity like what if you know what? if I'm never famous or well known. But but I'm really a good husband and a good dad like is that enough. Well I would hope so but like. Not the way we often portray these stories. You got you gotta be more than that and you gotta you know do that and so I think a lot of times we can put this idea of hero way elevate it and then that's really what we're talking about like yeah I'll die to be a hero. We're not truly talking about Martydom which is I'm willing to lay down my life for the Benefit. Of another and so you know I would certainly die for any of my kids I would certainly die for my wife you know I would hope I would die for a lot of other people. But it's easy to say that you know you're not in a situation that warrants it I actually know a guy and. Ah, you know, nose guy for a long time who has for years said he plans to die as a martyr and he's not speaking like hyperboically because he lives in another country and you know from the states and is literally convinced like yeah someday I'll die for what I'm doing.

41:26.67
Jeremy
And he might you know and I don't I don't know like like is that hero idea or is that Martyr idea I'm not really sure how you can necessarily discern it. But as I was thinking about it I came back to. I think a healthy perspective or at least I would say a Christian perspective is what Paul writes in flippians chapter 1 verse 21 and you know I'll close my argument on this because I think I don't I don't know how to say it better than this and I think this is this is ultimately where I would kind of land is Paul writes this for for to me. Living means living for Christ and dying is even better which at service service value sounds weird. It says. But if I live I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better I'm torn between 2 desires I long to go and be with Christ which would be far better for me. But for your sakes. It is better that I continue to live and I think Paul is illustrating something if if we truly believe that Jesus is as good as I'm arguing him to be and I believe that he is then yes I do not fear death. In the sense of like man that is the worst thing that could happen I don't what I fear about death is what would happen to my family. What would happen to my wife. What would happen to my kids. You know what would happen to those close like that is the immediate but you know and again check in on me a few decades from now. But.

43:00.45
Jeremy
I I just suspect I'm going to be the guy that as I get older. It's like yeah when it's my time to go. It's my time to go if my kids are grown and you know I've had a good run at it like I don't think I'm going to be clinging to surviving as long as possible. You know at all costs like no i. I want to feel like my time here was in service to others was a benefit to others and if I've done that and it's you know it's my time to go. It's my time to go now again. I'm not gonna be seeking death or seeking to be a martyr and I think ah it can get a little bit weird. But I think there's gotta be some tension here where we kind of. You know and I think Paul's living in it like look I'm gonna as long as I'm alive I'm here for you guys I'm gonna try to you know do this but I'm not afraid to die and he wasn't you know and made that very evident and it's like yeah then I get to go and hang with Jesus for eternity and not have to deal with this anymore and. Again, if if god is who I think god is that sounds appealing to me and I don't know so I think there's a tension there. Let's let's be willing to be martyrs when necessary and let's let's put our hero ideals in check.

44:15.86
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's good. That's that's a very ah measured answer which I appreciate. Um, yeah mean so I mean so much of this ah comes down to if you believe in an afterlife or not right I've thought about that a lot of.

44:28.62
Jeremy
Sure.

44:33.45
forestandtrees
This is I think that could be like a dark side of martyrdom is like people just trying to secure their place in an afterlife. Um or just yeah yeah for sure more right? Just wanting to be a hero of the faith.

44:42.25
Jeremy
But that would be more hero focused.

44:50.95
forestandtrees
Um, and ah it can be like a powerful tool to make people not afraid to die and again like as just so like as my thinking has shifted like if if there is no afterlife and this is the only life that there is like what would justify. Sacrificing your life for like what what cause would you die for like I I think there still are worthy causes like ah yeah I agree like I I hope that I would have the guts to lay down my life for my wife or for other people that I love Um, but I yeah I think there's a lot of other causes where. Maybe it's It's better to be more pragmatic and to live to fight another day rather than ah ah end it on the battlefield or something like that. Yeah.

45:37.95
Jeremy
Yeah, so I yeah I mean I'm I'm curious with your change. You know of of beliefs. So I obviously for me, it's. I I believe I'll get to experience Jesus and again I don't think martyrs necessarily have like any bizarre reward which is why I think you get into the religious terrorism when you you know hey I I earn something that's again, that's that's a hero focus but I I do think that can absolutely be.

45:58.58
forestandtrees
Right? Special place in heaven or something right.

46:05.94
forestandtrees
M.

46:12.60
Jeremy
A sign or a demonstration of the gospel which Jesus said like literally laying down your life for another and so again I hope I hope that I would choose that you know if if necessary if presented with it. But I I also have what's waiting for me which is a very appealing. Idea for you I love to just hear you expend on a little bit more I'm assuming you would say you think there'd be nothing after that. Um, so I mean like how like practically are there are there causes you're like yeah I'd go out for this or would you say like. Yeah, I'm really trying to live as many years as I can here because this is all I got or it doesn't really hasn't really changed your view of it that much at all like where whereas this idea of martyrdom changed in your own journey.

47:03.60
forestandtrees
Yeah,, let's see um I should I should have more noble causes right? I should be I don't know I Really admire the people of like just stop oil right now who they're not being killed but they're being arrested because they're. Throwing soup on famous works of art and gluing themselves to the wall um to to raise awareness for climate change I don't know if you've seen that? Um, yeah, you know stuff something that is is really cool. Um, and I yeah I Admire those people right with the.

47:23.88
Jeremy
I Have yeah.

47:34.76
forestandtrees
But the buddhist Monk it I feel just very mixed feelings about it right? like I want to honor and respect his sacrifice. But yeah I don't I don't really personally agree that that was the right thing to do to to kill yourself in that way. Um, yeah again I think like. To save other people would would absolutely be a worthy cause and in terms of like the afterlife like I don't think I'm afraid of death I mean maybe I'm afraid just in the natural healthy survival mode sense. But. I was thinking about this a lot on the bike trips at a trip where I was riding down the West coast and I was on the side of the highway with cars whizzing by all the time So I was constantly just thinking about what would happen if I just got hit by a car randomly and I was just dead on the in the ditch on the side of the road and. I was thinking you know of course like if if I die just instantly. That's neither good nor bad for me in terms of my experience because it's just nothing I feel horrible for my loved ones and I remember Um. Talking to my wife about this as she was driving me to the place where I was about to start for the day and I said man the worst part about dying on this trip is that my mom would think that I was in hell for eternity and that would just really break her heart and so just piece of advice for people don't.

49:09.70
forestandtrees
Say to your wife that you're more concerned about your mom than her but I was like you'd be fine because you wouldn't believe I'm in hell and you can move on and do other things you know by my mom would be Ah yeah.

49:14.44
Jeremy
I ah.

49:21.61
Jeremy
You'd be fine. She she didn't You didn't agree with your assessment.

49:28.85
forestandtrees
Yeah, she was like maybe you should be more concerned about how I would feel than than how your mom would feel which you know that's that's a fair point does that answer your question just some scattered thoughts on death.

49:31.75
Jeremy
This seems valid.

49:39.31
Jeremy
Yeah I mean I think again, you know it goes back to the point of like what we believe about all this stuff shapes how we live shapes the decisions we make or decisions we would make and I think that's what's so fascinating about exploring these ideas with you is you know seeing.

49:45.30
forestandtrees
E.

49:57.50
Jeremy
What what does the other perspective produce and what you know I don't know just it's it's I appreciate hearing your perspective on that.

50:05.31
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, still so making but up my mind about a lot of things I mean I Also agree that like I wouldn't want to like I believe in death with Dignity I Suppose is the phrase like I wouldn't want to just. Prolong my life as long as possible even if I don't believe in an afterlife like I think it's It's okay, to ah, let go of what you have at a certain point rather than just trying to prolong the inevitable I've been reading a book. Read a book recently called being mortal that was about this subject. So I've been thinking about that a lot and just with some elderly family members who are kind of at that end of life decisions stage you know and it's just it's It's a really tough. Ah ethical question of how how long do you.

50:56.82
Jeremy
Right now. That's that's another podcast.

50:56.99
forestandtrees
Just medically prolong human life and and when do you choose to let go? Yeah well, that's well that that's the last question hate to end it on on such a bummer note but ah. Was that verse you liked again. Jeremy 31 Rehab yeah she was cool. Ah all right? Yeah let's end it there Ah ok, this was a great discussion. Thanks for answering my questions jeremy oh you know what? you know? what? I'm going to say.

51:17.52
Jeremy
Um, rahab yeah rahab's good.

51:33.49
forestandtrees
The bible really is that deep because there are some rich topics here and I appreciate you tackling them with candor and honesty and all that stuff and we appreciate our listeners. So thank you for listening and we're almost done with a book 2 more chapters to go. So.

51:35.76
Jeremy
Hey.

51:52.77
forestandtrees
See you next week.