Hebrews 10 - Tribulation Force

We get into some end times stuff! Jeremy is way too cool for the left behind series, Jef reveals how he first learned about sex. And more!

Topics
Can other religions honor God?
Are we sure God can't lie?
Being made holy (whatever that means)
Why is it taking so long for Jesus to come back?
Are we sure Jesus isn't coming back pissed?

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Transcript

00:00.00
Jeremy
Hey, everybody we have made it to double digits. We are here for centuries pod at Hebrews chapter 10 all the way to 10 my name is Jeremy and as always my friend. Mr. Jeff.

00:19.15
forestandtrees
Jeremy I think it's time that you and I form a tribulation force because we are talking about end time stuff in this chapter.

00:28.44
Jeremy
Okay, so we've gone off, we've gone off star wars clearly I I don't know where we are now where are we Jeff.

00:34.77
forestandtrees
You know you me Kirk Cameron Nick cage if he's available left behind left behind chapter 2 are two tribulation force I've decided.

00:41.12
Jeremy
You did not just quote left behind. Ah oh that hurts. Ah.

00:51.29
forestandtrees
I've decided as a reward for graduating from star wars I now freedom in Christ I get to make any pop culture reference I want it doesn't have to be locked in just just star wars it's it's relevant it was it was rebooted.

00:55.51
Jeremy
Ah.

01:01.72
Jeremy
Is left behind considered pop culture I don't know that's like Christian subculture. Ah, not well.

01:10.16
forestandtrees
There was spinoffs because there was left behind the kids. Yeah I actually I never saw the the nick cage version did you I saw the Kirk Cameron 1 all right I saw the Kirk Cameron 1 when I was a kid. Yeah.

01:16.23
Jeremy
I never saw any of the versions because I'm true to Jesus Jeff and have standards I can't watch that kind of filth wow work. Yeah I'm sorry everybody we're we're now quoting left behind. We.

01:29.93
forestandtrees
It's true. It's so true.

01:34.48
Jeremy
We have gone off the rails I don't know what I don't know what follows after that. So no, no claim to anything here. We're just gonna see where this goes but I am excited about chapter 10 chapter tens kind of a doozy Jeff it's all it's all over the place and we're gonna.

01:50.43
forestandtrees
There's a lot in here.

01:53.66
Jeremy
We're gonna do our best to ping pong all over. But today I'm excited. We're gonna get to discuss getting credit for worshiping other gods. We're gonna ask why god seems to play games with us or try to figure out if Jesus was wrong about the second coming and. Whether or not Jesus actually is a bit mad. Jeff's going to test my my thesis statement from last week we're going to get into it. But what what's at the stage Jeff a beautiful verse in this chapter is hebrews verses 1110 this is.

02:16.85
forestandtrees
Yeah.

02:25.39
forestandtrees
Um.

02:31.67
Jeremy
Excuse me 11 and 12 chapter 10 and I love the way this this puts a a cherry on top of so many of the conversations we've had on this podcast. So far says this under the old covenant the priest stands and ministers before the altar day after day. Offering the same sacrifices again and again which can never take away since that's depressing the old covenant you're just standing working working working working working and it never works but verse 12 our high priest Jesus offered himself to god as a single sacrifice for sins. Good for all time then he sat down in the place of honor at god's right hand Jesus is not standing offering the same sacrifice over. And over which can never take away sins. He has sat down. It is finished you and I have been made complete in Christ that's worth celebrating.

03:36.53
forestandtrees
Yeah, the sacrifice is once and for all the blood sacrifice worked we we definitively answered it it last week answered it it And yeah, yeah, the blood it makes total sense to me, no further questions. Oh wait actually.

03:48.10
Jeremy
Um, and all the blood talk last week oh great well then oh you did I thought oh okay I was so confused it felt like we had momentum from last week but but we we left some.

03:55.50
forestandtrees
Actually I'm just looking at my notes here I do have a few questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like like I said last week I felt like we swam through an ocean of blood. So I feel like we've we've come upon the Shore now and.

04:04.47
Jeremy
Some unchecked evidently.

04:09.67
Jeremy
So much blood.

04:15.40
forestandtrees
We're we're just kind of drawing off. You know that you make make sure you don't use. Ah 1 of your good towels when you're when you're drying off from all that blood.

04:21.97
Jeremy
Um, wow it's weird on that note I would love to hear what questions do you have about chapter 10 because we haven't resolved everything yet Jeff we got to we got to get into your questions.

04:34.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, sure you know look like I would say that I feel like there's a little bit of spillover. There's some more some more blood talk towards the beginning of chapter 10 here and it it gives me opportunity for some follow up questions. Perhaps so starting first in verse one.

04:44.86
Jeremy
Okay.

04:51.23
forestandtrees
Chapter 10 says the old system under the law of Moses was only a shadow a dim preview of the good things to come ok so this speaks to the verses. You just quoted about the old covenant being obsolete and it being irrelevant and not so good in hindsight. And we've talked. We've talked a lot about this this general topic right? The idea of like the ancient israelites they seem to have this picture of god that was so far off right? You keep saying like that doesn't look like Jesus that doesn't look like Jesus right? But this is their picture of god and they have it a pair. Pretty far off if if they're offering blood sacrifices turns out god doesn't even want the blood sacrifices and then so so got me thinking. Okay so what are there parameters here because old testament god is very specific about you need to worship the right god right? If you read the old testament. There's a lot of talk about idolatry of. don't worship bail don't worship ashara it's got to be ya way, but but he's also so he wants to make sure they get their name his name right? But he's okay with them being off in terms of like his character and what he wants and all this stuff which seems a little bit strange. It made me think like. So god doesn't care what you think about him as long as you get his name right? Um, and then to me. Yeah, yeah, the the name of god is very theologically important. It seems um and of course we know there were all these other tribes that we're making.

06:12.29
Jeremy
He's very particular on his name.

06:17.21
Jeremy
E.

06:24.00
forestandtrees
Blood sacrifices some animal probably some human sacrifices as well in in old testament times who were making it to apparently the wrong God So just it made me curious is God in the old testament at least somewhat satisfied with those.

06:30.59
Jeremy
Ah.

06:41.77
forestandtrees
Pagan Tribes who are making blood sacrifices with their coming from their limited understanding of who God is what his name is what he looks like. What do you think.

06:49.84
Jeremy
This is a fascinating question and I think it applies even even in today right? because your your question I think could still apply to you know someone in a different religion today. Do do they get you know partial credit I think is your phrase used like hey you got you got some right? I'm wrong.

06:57.30
forestandtrees
Right.

07:04.39
forestandtrees
Yeah, partial credit.

07:09.82
Jeremy
So think it's a fascinating question and I suspect if we were to pull most christians today and ask I I would guess most christians would say no doesn't count. You get no credit. You know, pass or fail you failed you got it wrong. And that there would be this sense of we got it right? and you know there is a right answer therefore there is a wrong answer you know other people outside of that. So my guess is most christianity would would say that or most christians I'm i'm. This should not surprise you at this point I'm going to be a little counterintuitive to that. What I would guess most christians would say and I'm going to say yes Jeff I think god does grant partial credit. However, we want to describe it I think it is very much you know god looking at the heart god looking at what we do with what we know. And I was thinking about this and it brought me back to a guy we have. We have referenced numerous times on this podcast. My man cslewis because there's this this scene in one of his books or exchange because it's it's not a scene so I don't know this one of.

08:14.67
forestandtrees
Mm.

08:23.82
Jeremy
Wass ever made in the movies I never saw the crocon a Narnia movies I saw the first one I think and it was so bad that I couldn't I couldn't ruin it but there's there's a book called the last battle which chronologically not as you wrote them. You know if we get cslewis fans here. They're very particular about which order you read them in. Chronologically is the last book just curious Jeff have you read all the chronicles in Ernia.

08:50.88
forestandtrees
Yeah I think so I I definitely have read line the witch in the wardrobe and Magicians partial credit and ah yeah, definitely read the last.

08:58.35
Jeremy
Everybody's read that book. You don't get credit for that book. No I'll give you partial credit for that book.

09:08.50
forestandtrees
Battle Ah, and probably most of the other definitely have read Magician's nephew which that one's like the Phantom Menace right? That's the prequel that came later Um, and ah anyway I remember as a kid like trying to get through the horse and his boy and feeling like it was really boring. So maybe I didn't get through that one.

09:26.56
Jeremy
Ah, that's a weird one. Yeah, that one's weird so you're saying just for the record you have read the chronic Ka Anarrnia and you still don't believe in God that might be harder for people to swallow than everything everything else about your story.

09:28.49
forestandtrees
Um, ah.

09:37.15
forestandtrees
Yeah I believe I believe in lions because I can see them. Yeah.

09:43.86
Jeremy
Okay, oh it's fair. Okay, so all that's just set up for for this this exchange I want I want to read so in the last battle you have in case, someone hasn't read this book. Let me give you real quick synopsis. You have this claim that there's ah. Multiple gods right? There's Azlan which is the the Jesus or god the father figure Jesus you know in in this story then you have tash which in the in the last battle is like a rival god and there's this claim that you know in the book that tash and Azlan are really the same and there's no different. And yet you have followers of tash you have followers of aslan. But there's this moment right? where there's this soldier who has been serving tash all his life. This is the wrong god this is the bad god in the book and he meets aslan. Right? This is the real god this is the you know the biblical portrayal of god here and what cs lewis does here I think is so good and so fascinating and when I saw your question I literally thought of this scene I was like oh yeah, that reminds me of this so I want to read it cause I think it's so interesting. How cslewis is essentially answering your question. Okay, so this is a guy named emeths who is meeting ah aslan the guard of the not the god of the narnians who he has not worshipped he has worshipped his life and followed tash and this is how it plays out it says then and he is is emmoth talking then I fell at his feet asly.

11:16.93
Jeremy
And thought surely this is the hour of death for the lion who is worthy of all honor will know that I have served tash all my days and not him right? He's scared like this lion's gonna know I served the wrong god nevertheless it is better to see the lion and die. Then to beat Tis Rock of the world and live and not to have seen him but the glorious 1 bent down his golden head. He's talking about Aslan and touched my forehead with his tongue and said son thou art welcome. But I said alas lord I am no son of thine. I don't know why he speaks in King James but this is in King James Talk I am no son of thine but the servant of tash he's like whoa as on like I followed the wrong god right? and he answered child catch this line. All the service thou hast done to tash I account.

11:59.88
forestandtrees
Um.

12:14.19
Jeremy
As service done to me then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding I overcame my fear and I questioned the glorious one and said lord is it then true as the ape said that thou and tash are one so he's going. Okay, if if all that I did for tash counts. They must be the same god the lion growled this so that the earth shook but his wrath was not against me and said it is false not because he and I are one but because we are opposites and then this is this is the real moneymaker right? here says. I take to me the services which thou hast done to him for I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me and none which is not vile can be done to him therefore. If any man swear by tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake. It is by me that he has truly sworn though he knew it not and it is I who reward him and if any man do a cruelty in my name then though he says the name aslan it is tash. Whom he serves and by tash his deed is accepted now this this is like like great theology here that that Lewis is just shoving into this list. Story here. So basically.

13:48.35
Jeremy
Lewis's argument as as this guy emethth experiences Aszlin is that anything good that he has done in his whole life was always in service to aslin he thought it was detash but it wasn't it was always to aslan and anything bad that he did was always in service detash. And so Asla basically says all the good that you did I accept as as worship to me regardless of who you thought you were were worshipping I like this premise I don't know if you're gonna agree with this ah premise. But I like this premise a lot that lewis sets up here that that you can worship. I mean call god whatever you want to call god you can worship the universe you can you know but if it is of god meaning you know it really is the essence of god so I would say if it is true. Love you know if it is true. The the things of god the very nature of who god is.

14:28.83
forestandtrees
Um.

14:40.59
Jeremy
Then it's automatically worship done to god and you know we talk about like the fruits of the spirit love joy peace patience goodness kindness self-control I would say anytime you practice those things that is connection with with god with Jesus. Even if you're doing those things and you're thinking they go to Buddha or you're thinking you know it's something else I think Jesus acknowledges that as you know as the partial credit as the worship of him and I think I think there's going to be a lot of surprise people on judgment day. And I think there's gonna be surprise in 2 camps 1 camp't being like like emmoth here I can't believe I'm being welcomed in even though I thought I was worshiping you know some other god or doing some other thing and then I think there's gonna be christians who are gonna be very surprised at the emmoths.

15:32.85
forestandtrees
Um.

15:34.73
Jeremy
Who are walking around like what how on earth did that guy get in here and I think this is kind of a beautiful thing that Jesus is doing but it might be a little bit of a hot take. What do you think? Jeff.

15:48.30
forestandtrees
Yeah I I really like this worldview. It certainly makes a lot more logical sense to me, you know, especially when you think about just people who've done like atrocious things in the name of the christian god and then people who have done great works of. Charity or benevolent things in in the name of allah or one of the gods of hinduism or something like that you know like I feel like whenever you start thinking about like religions of the world and how like all these people come yeah are just a victim of their backgrounds to some extent. You know you don't get to choose. Where you're born and what your upbringing is you know whatever I start thinking about that of course it leads down to this line of thinking of yeah god must like judge people based on the information given to them right? Um, it seemed it seems unfair to do otherwise and I guess that's yeah, so it doesn't seem like a hot take in that. Sense. It seems like a hot take in the sense of I feel like so many christians have such an emphasis on you have to have the right doctrine the right understanding of god like I feel like I've heard some christians argue like there is no good thing. You can do outside of god like if you do a good if you help the poor. But it's not in the name of Jesus then that doesn't count as a good thing. Um, which I mean I'm guessing you disagree with that. But what? Ah why do? why? Do you think that is why do people? Why do people get so clung to the hung out on the doctrine.

17:07.97
Jeremy
I I would strongly disagree with that. Yeah.

17:19.20
Jeremy
I Suspect it's It's similar to and we've talked about this as well. You know, ah this idea if I've done it right? I should have extra reward over someone who's done it wrong. So like yeah some they can get something they can you know.

17:30.69
forestandtrees
Um.

17:35.15
Jeremy
Experience some god or whatever some forgiveness but like I should have some you know some advantage because I did it right? It's essentially you know Jesus' ' story about the the prodigal son and the elder brother I think a lot of christians take on the role of the elder brother when it comes to other people of like well yeah, but look I've been here the whole time.

17:43.83
forestandtrees
Right.

17:53.22
Jeremy
I've been serving God I've been doing it right? and you're just gonna you know, let someone else in I think that's why it bothers us and so the idea that someone wouldn't follow God the way we have wouldn't do it the right way you know which usually we think is our way I think bothers us at the core.

18:06.97
forestandtrees
M.

18:11.98
Jeremy
And I would you know encourage anyone if you feel that that's not of Jesus like that's not that's not a jesus response to you know? and even what is it Luke twenty I believe you know where Jesus tells the parable of the the workers in the field and you know. The the owner of the vineyard brings people in all day. The punchline of that story is you know should you be jealous that I am kind to others is like the last line of that that I think is so good and the reality is like a lot of people get mad when god is kind to others that we don't think deserve it. And that's why I think why we get crazy with there's a right name and a right prayer and a right doctrine and a right this or that because we we want to feel like we've done something to earn it and others have not.

19:02.49
forestandtrees
So I just remembered where this comes from because Jesus says no one comes to the father except through me right I feel like that's that's like the ultimate proof text people are going to use when you start saying all the roads lead to Rome so what would your response to that. Be.

19:17.98
Jeremy
So I think that's you know that's what I think Lewis is doing beautifully in this is that it is through Aslan. It's not apart from asslin and aslin's claiming it. That's why I think's interesting and so it would be you know to use the the analogy here like Jesus is saying you you did that through me, you didn't realize you were.

19:25.56
forestandtrees
Mm.

19:34.96
forestandtrees
You right? just without without the head knowledge.

19:37.70
Jeremy
You thought you're doing outside of me but it it is of me and so I claim it and I think that's like you know, emmoth in this story is thinking I didn't do any of this to Aslan and is surprised that Aslan is saying you did and I think Jesus got the same conversation with us like no I was serving.

19:48.20
forestandtrees
Um.

19:54.24
Jeremy
This hindu god or I was serving whatever and Jesus is like yeah but it was of me like you were you were doing things of me I think it could be very similar so I I would still say you know John 1426 yeah it is all through Jesus but I think.

20:09.61
forestandtrees
Yeah, so you say yeah people people will be saved through Jesus without even knowing Jesus in their lifetime right.

20:11.13
Jeremy
You know Jesus is bigger than we ought to give him credit for.

20:18.40
Jeremy
Great. So I don't think anyone saved apart from Jesus that's where I would absolutely I would agree with many people like yeah there is no saving apart from Jesus but the nuance there is I think Jesus is gonna do far more saving than most of us realize.

20:23.56
forestandtrees
M.

20:32.96
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I I like it I mean it sounds good and it's certainly um, yeah I mean it's it's certainly like smooths over some of like things some of the problems like the problem of evil and the problem of. Religious diversity like if if there is just one true god why there's so many different understanding understandings of what that god looks like and what he wants um and things like that. So yeah I like it I I have a feeling that if if a more conservative Christian were on here. They they could um. Make some arguments and disagree with us. But that person is not here right now. So yeah.

21:09.42
Jeremy
Well and we did not give them the microphone. Ah, okay so here's here's where I think I would get pushback ah is someone would say what's the point of converting people then.

21:20.10
forestandtrees
Um, right.

21:24.15
Jeremy
And I get this kind of question often like well so what's the point of doing any of this right? like I don't think the goal of being a christian is to convert everyone around you I think the goal is to introduce people to Jesus and let them experience Jesus however, they would and so this is actually ah this is a real issue for missionaries. And you study this like in seminaries is one of the things I remember taking classes on like a missionary ago. You know, let's say to a muslim country and you can think about like we're going to go convert muslims to Jesus. Okay, so let's say in that traditional thinking you do you have someone who's muslim they say I want to follow Jesus.

21:55.67
forestandtrees
Um.

22:01.57
Jeremy
Can they be a muslim christian right? or do they have to denounce everything of their culture and their belief system in order to be a christian the way you're a Christian and I think a lot of missionaries have you know, got this wrong and I think in more later years have kind of figured out. Oh we can let people come to Jesus.

22:10.95
forestandtrees
Right.

22:21.44
Jeremy
In their own way and their own expression and I remember like you know on some of the trips I've been on like short term trips you know'd I'd be like I remember 1 time I was I think I was in Nepal and I was at this this like church gathering of of you know these nepali people and they're singing this song. And ah, you know at 1 point like the guy looks over at me and he's like why are you not singing the song and I'm like I don't know this song. You know it's like you guys are singing in another language and then he said no, it's any like I don't know what the song was. It's some very common. Ah you know, worship song that I grew up with. That they had just changed the lyrics to and then I realized like oh you are singing this I recognized the melody all of a sudden didn't like I just didn't recognize the words but then it actually made me really sad cause I'm like you've just imported our cultural worship songs and like just changed the lyrics like. Wouldn't it be cooler to have a ah nepali expression of worship. You know that's more true to your music and your culture and your language and I don't know so I think that is another maybe tension point here of we want people to be like us and that's the essence of converting people. And I'm I'm not a big converting guy I'm a big introduce people to Jesus guy.

23:42.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, totally I I um, went to a Christian missionary alliance school for bible college. So that that place had a big emphasis on missions and at the time that was my worldview was like basically everyone should be a missionary because you know great commission Jesus tells us. Spread the news because people are going to hell stakes are high here and yeah of course I've done all kinds of deconstruction with that line of thinking like realizing I was I was a real Christian yeah I used to be um.

24:04.32
Jeremy
Um, so you were a christian you were you are math 20 a all all through and through.

24:15.58
forestandtrees
And of course there's you know there's all kinds of conversation about this right about how missions is kind of like cultural colonialism and of course there's there's a very extreme example of people saying like this african tribe has to like act like us white folks and and wear Khaki pants and tuck their shirts in and stuff like that. But I think there's even you know a more subtle versions of that of just saying like not just your traditions about like your your gods are no longer relevant. You know? So yeah I don't right? That's that I mean that's one. Yeah, one of the things that makes me so uncomfortable about christianity is like I feel like there is still that. Like ah, what's a word evangelism prostelotizing I feel like proselytizing is like a negative term right? people think that think of that is like the bad thing but I don't know or my earlier understanding of christianity was like yeah, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to convert the world. Yeah.

24:57.58
Jeremy
Um, man.

25:09.98
Jeremy
Totally me yeah me too I grew up very much the same way. Um, and you know I think there's just I think a lot of us who grew up with that have seen it play out and realized yeah that the tenant work. Well um.

25:22.89
forestandtrees
Um.

25:23.75
Jeremy
You know I I think of like there's this one case study I remember reading about 1 of my seminary classes where there are these missionaries to this this culture and again I don't know I remember the details I just remember the point of the story was the women in that culture were topless and so the missionaries once they would you know Convert. A woman to christianity they would make them wear clothes. You know, wear a shirt because obviously you can't be topless. That's you know that's not of god and so all of the the newly converted christians in this culture all started wearing shirts. Well what the. The missionaries didn't realize is in that culture. The only women who wore shirts were prostitutes because that was like hey I'm you know I'm kind of advertising like you're gonna have to get this or something and so they actually set christianity back like so.

26:07.10
forestandtrees
Yeah.

26:16.78
Jeremy
So many years because everybody was convinced. Christianity was a like a sex religion that if you you know if you became Christian you became a prostitute and it was because the missionaries just insisted you had to do it this way which again this is just this is where you know things are not as black and white as most of us want to believe so you know.

26:24.61
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, that's fascinating.

26:36.61
Jeremy
Put yourself in that situation. Are you okay with you know women becoming Christian and remaining in their culture remaining topless. Even if to your culture that's not acceptable. You know if their culture it is. It's like that's where we realize that really a lot of evangelizing is just making other people like us and that to me is not.

26:55.00
forestandtrees
Um.

26:56.36
Jeremy
Christianity christianity is bringing people to Jesus. It's not you have to be like me and I think we we've gotten that mixed up a lot.

27:04.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that's a great example of the the counterintuitive nature of right trying to evangelize and save the world and doing doing more harm than good. Which yeah once you start talking about Missionaries There's all kinds of stories about that. So.

27:19.20
Jeremy
Oh yeah, so many stories.

27:22.51
forestandtrees
Ah, all right? Well but my next question ties into this a little bit because it's it's again about like us having like different understandings of god and what god is like because and him not feeling the need to clear things up necessarily so in verse eight it's says first Christ said. You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings or burnt offerings or other offerings for sin nor were you pleased with them though they are required by the law of moses. Okay, so this made me think back to a couple chapters ago hebrews 1618 where it says that it is impossible for god to lie. I remember when I read that verse I thought oh man, there's got to be some example of god being dishonest with people that I can Nail Jeremy with and ah I think I think this could be 1 of I wouldn't say it's an outright lie but it's it's not full transparency obviously and it's a little bit of a. Dishonesty by omission I would say um, again like going back to all the things we're talking about of like they the ancient israelites offered animal sacrifices because that's what god wanted for them and then they even wrote it down in the law and they had the 10 commandments and the tabernacle and all these things and then later. We reveal that god is like no I never wanted animal sacrifices and apparently he didn't feel need to speak up earlier and say that so that's my question if if god never wanted animal sacrifices isn't it dishonest of him to.

28:53.12
forestandtrees
Play along and not clear things up earlier.

28:55.76
Jeremy
Well I I would say you know we've talked about this. He did clear things up and even in this chapter cleared things up twice hebras ten four for it is it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats take away sins. That's not that's not very vague verse 11

28:59.95
forestandtrees
M.

29:12.53
forestandtrees
Um.

29:14.33
Jeremy
Under the old covenant the priest stands and Ministers before the altar day after offer the same sacrifices again and again which can never take away since right? So like you get to chapter 10 and there there's no ambiguity here like that didn't work and never never worked right? Um, So then you know I would say God. Like I think God did make it clear now again made it clear at a certain point and you can say Well why didn't you know God make it clear earlier. But I think you know to use your phrase God played along until the people could handle more and I understand where you're coming from on how this feels dishonest by omission I get it. I don't I don't have an issue with it and an analogy that I resonate with as I make sense of this is I think every parent does this with their kids intuitively you do this with your kids So when your kids are little they will ask you a question that can be a big complicated question. And you can't just answer it the way you would answer an adult because that would make no sense to your kid so you have to literally go to their level to their framework to their worldview and figure out how can I make this make Sense. You know to you and. You know and I remember like I've had so many conversations with my kids where they they asked me a really good question and I realize hey the way I might intuitively answer this probably won't make sense to you So How can I You know how can I convert it down pair it down to to something and you know I just.

30:46.30
Jeremy
All the time and so I you know I've used like their Tv shows and characters in their Tv shows to try to illustrate something for them right? It's me playing along. It's not omission because I'm not giving them the the full answer I don't think the full answer would make sense to them and you know so you can say well you should give them the full answer and let them. Tell you you know it doesn't make sense to them. Maybe um, or yeah I think again any parent would just I think resonate with like yeah this is what you do when you're raising kids you you meet them where they are you try to help them. You know when they've got a problem you you. You go to the problem on their level. You don't explain to them hey and the the whole big world here. This is not a real problem. No you meet them where they are like yeah this is a big problem for you. You know this this girl in your class is is really being mean you know it's like and the big scheme like this is not gonna. You know, really matter but like it matters to you and so I'm gonna enter into it and I think that's what I see god doing now I know you don't have kids. So maybe this analogy still won't work but can can you open your heart or your mind Jeff to to maybe as a parent goddess is really playing along.

31:48.31
forestandtrees
M.

32:00.94
Jeremy
Because that's what God has to do to help the people.

32:05.20
forestandtrees
Yeah I think I can imagine being in a scenario where a child asked me a question and I have to give them kind of a simplified answer. Ah follow up question for you though isn't isn't the old testament covenant more complicated in the new testament more simple. Right? Like we had you know Christian churches. Love to say it's simple just love god love people so simple right and then old testament. He got all these very specific rules about how to dissect the animals and build the tabernacle and such.

32:30.22
Jeremy
Right? No, that's fair, but again that God's meeting them where they are. They're in an ancient Eris culture which to us is very complicated is very confusing is very bizarre totally to to them. That's the air they breathe. That's the water they swam in. You know it's just like.

32:35.88
forestandtrees
M.

32:47.59
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

32:50.50
Jeremy
That's what they knew. That's who they were to us. Yeah, it's bizarre and we have to learn this stuff like what's what's the sacrificial system and how does it work. You know to them like is what you did like. Of course you're gonna go kill an animal and that's how they grew up. You know So I think again, it's God meeting them where they are.

33:00.12
forestandtrees
Ah.

33:07.48
Jeremy
And so as a dad you know I don't I don't chastise my kids of like why are you asking this question what you should be asking me. It's like no, you're asking the question that makes sense to you and I think a great illustration of this is having the sex talk with your kids because.

33:22.36
forestandtrees
Um.

33:22.91
Jeremy
They are at radically different understandings I've had that talk with 3 of my kids so far and all 3 went dramatically different in in the conversation not because my answers were changing with each kid. Ah the the whole sex act has not changed since I explained it to my first child. But. They are so different and they are coming from different points of view and you know different understandings and different personalities and so again, you know you're trying to figure out this is kind of a big subject. How do I make this make sense to you and ah yeah, without you know. Without ratty and my kids out I could just say some of them had some really funny questions that others didn't have and 1 of the three that I had definitely was like able to grasp these ideas way quicker than the other two and kind of caught me off guard like wow how is this so easy for you to wrap your mind around it and you know your 2 siblings. Had different conversations. So I just think it's just the reality. No I think I think because you know our parenting style is like we want to be the first to say this and then we just kind of put it out there like hey if your friends tell you something or do you ever have a question like we just want to be open with you like you can always come and you know they they do. They.

34:19.39
forestandtrees
Was it because they weren't was it because they weren't hearing it for the first time or. Yeah.

34:38.63
Jeremy
They'll hear something in school like dad. What the heck is this, you know and they're great conversations and we've so we I think we got to them first of the three that we we've had the conversation with it's just who they are is different and that's what I'm saying and as a parent with 5 kids I've just seen all 5 of them are so different and I think this is just what god does like.

34:43.55
forestandtrees
Yeah.

34:49.80
forestandtrees
Right? right? rent.

34:58.54
Jeremy
This is the people group I'm gonna you know I'm gonna choose and I'm gonna play along for a while and I'm gonna meet them where they are and you know there will be a point I'll make it clear and as my kids get older I'm able to make all these conversations more clear for them because they can understand more. They can grasp more and you just Keep. You know, evolving the conversation naturally.

35:19.50
forestandtrees
Man you're you're bringing back memories of my dad taking me for a weekend trip and um, playing like the focus on the family cassette tape where Dr. James Dobson explains the birds and the bees to me. So my dad doesn't have to.

35:25.64
Jeremy
Oh no.

35:31.97
Jeremy
Wait James Dobson is the one that had the sex talk with you.

35:35.82
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, not in person but via cassette tape. Yes.

35:41.22
Jeremy
Wow, let the record state. that's a fun fact that's ah that's a 2 truth and a lie little nugget there that you can use for future games like that's that's pretty great like I learned about sex from James Dobson

35:49.25
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, as long as I'm in playing it within circles who would like know who Dr Dobson is yeah for sure.

35:59.80
Jeremy
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Ah, okay, that's that's amazing. Thank thank you for that and a little nugget I got a question for you Jeff couple verses after the one you just read verse ten is is a beautiful verse and I'm curious your take on it. It says hebrews ten ten.

36:05.63
forestandtrees
Yeah.

36:16.96
Jeremy
For god's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time now again, this is in contrast to the sacrificial system that is talked about in this chapter of over and over and over Jesus did it once and then by that 1 act right? So not. Something we're doing not something Jesus has to do over and over again by that 1 act we are to be made holy which is like an ongoing process and I would say the emphasis in what follows is far more about Jesus as the perfect priest than it is whether or not you and I get it right? and so I would say you know based on this verse. God's desire is that what Jesus has done for us will continually make us holy despite where we are so I'm curious in your season of life. How how do you read that verse how do you react to that. What's your what's your take on that.

37:12.43
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's I mean in light of what we talked about earlier. It's definitely ah, a great thought like it takes it certainly takes like the fear of what if I'm doing this wrong what if I have it all wrong and I'm going to hell away which is which is a comforting thought. Um. Like I ah it almost seems like this idea of your this is being taken care of for you right? like as I was thinking about this question I was thinking about a time when I got a work email that said like hey just so you know like we had this software crash last night and we're we took care of it. We fixed everything so you don't have to do anything so it's all good. You know and I'm like okay well that's that's great. Thanks for letting me know you actually could have not let me know and my life would not have changed at all I was I was thinking of that as an analogy for the atonement right? Like if there was this problem with sin and death and then Jesus. Took care of it and it's it's ah retroactively saves all of us from sin and death whether we're aware of it or not um, yeah, it's a comforting thought I guess it's it's nice to know. Ah, but it's it's kind of a weird idea of like I mean I I didn't ask for this but ah. I'll I'll take it. Yeah sure does that does that answer make sense to you.

38:32.98
Jeremy
Well, it's interesting. You're focusing on it in you know terms of salvation which I think ah I think the verse includes that but I think what's interesting by the phrasing is you know, not God's will for us was to you know to be saved but to be made Holy which.

38:37.65
forestandtrees
Um.

38:46.74
forestandtrees
To make us. Holy yeah.

38:49.61
Jeremy
What I would say is a process of becoming more like Jesus or I guess to say it more broadly to become a better version of yourself. You know to to have growth toward who toward the character of god you know I always have to put Christian and back on it and so so again I want to push back a little bit. So.

39:03.86
forestandtrees
M.

39:09.21
Jeremy
Not just the salvation sense which you've answered that but like the thought of you becoming being made holy by Jesus despite you know what? what you're doing or where you get it wrong. What does that feel like.

39:14.11
forestandtrees
Yeah, what.

39:21.37
forestandtrees
Yeah, so the question of like am I am I becoming a better person just in general or like a more a more moral person I I don't know I mean I Certainly don't think that it's true that you can become a better person.

39:26.73
Jeremy
Wherever wherever you want to take it.

39:39.61
forestandtrees
By doing nothing. You know, not not to be too protestant work ethic about it. But I think you do need to work. You know you got to do the exercise or the practice or whatever it is you want to develop even like becoming a morally a better person I think you need to like put the time in to like. Study the ethics or or make decisions about whatever kind of morality type stuff you want to do? Um, again like it's it's a great thought of the idea of like you you have this like invisible advocate who is doing it for you or I don't know I guess maybe a christian worldview would say like. Despite all my human failings I'm covered I'm made perfect by the blood of Jesus is is that a ah correct way of thinking about this.

40:27.74
Jeremy
Well yeah, but I'm I'm curious from your point of view. You know is that is that a welcome thought or that's like ah you know leave me alone. Get off me kind of like I didn't want this. Why are you trying to make me holy you know I Guess that's what I'm getting at is like is that a is that an appealing thought to you.

40:39.64
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

40:45.51
Jeremy
Or do you kind of have like ah like ah, a sense of pushback against it.

40:50.70
forestandtrees
So I like the idea of of being holy if holy means like being a good person right? like morally righteous you know I think I think we could all stand to be better people. Um, as as we've talked about a lot I have a lot of hangups on the idea of being made Holy By. Ah, human sacrifice right? I know we've talked about that so we don't have to relitigate that. But yeah, you know it. It seems problematic to me still of like if of all the things to make you a better person. It's you're made it better because of this this act of violence.

41:26.20
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah, appreciate that. Thanks for answering.

41:26.28
forestandtrees
So yeah, um, yeah, so do you see see this as like people just in general or maybe like society at large are things getting better all the time like the Martin Luther King quote of the The human story is is long but it bends toward justice something like that.

41:49.61
Jeremy
I definitely would say if you take a step back like historically I think I think most people would argue that there's a book I think it's Stephen Pinker wrote called the better angels of our nature that I read years ago that was a great book and he makes the argument that book that his his.

41:57.50
forestandtrees
M.

42:09.70
Jeremy
Historically societies have been evolving for the good and you know things that used to be culturally appropriate. You know, like in Roman times like hey, let's go watch people fight to the death and be eaten alive by lions for entertainment.

42:11.50
forestandtrees
1

42:24.44
Jeremy
Like we don't do that anymore and you know a lot of things that used to be acceptable aren't anymore and he just kind of breaks it down historically in different things you know and I remember reading that book being very encouraged by it like even as bad as I can see the world today like when you you read history like it was way worse. You know like oh good woo.

42:33.32
forestandtrees
Yeah.

42:43.17
Jeremy
Ah, glad we're moving forward. Um, so I think historically yes, but I also I guess when I you know and I read verse ten for me. This is why I was curious your take on it for me it aligns very much with who I believe Jesus to be and what I think Jesus is doing. Which is um basically you know in his goodness is is redeeming constantly and bringing things and making things better constantly now not coercively and so that's why you know I do think of someone's like I don't want to be made. Holy I don't want you know. I'd be curious like yeah I you know I think you do have free will there but I think you know apart from like a direct defiance of that like I would say it's like almost a magnetic pull that Jesus has you know in our lives and again I think that's that's kind of my understanding of who Jesus is which certainly. Leads to my understanding of you know the afterlife and Jesus redeeming all of creation if you don't hold to that then this understanding of Jesus you know making people holy probably doesn't make much sense but I'm curious. You know because I don't think it's coercive. Um, just curious how someone who doesn't want Jesus in their life would feel about you know the the fact that there is a magnetic pull. Although maybe it's kind of like you know it doesn't really matter if I like gravity gravity plays a role in my life. You know it could be something like that I don't know.

44:07.66
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, and I guess like for for me Personally I'm not I'm not someone who's like Anti-ji this I would say like I'm you know part of the reason I wanted to do this podcast. It was a.

44:19.22
Jeremy
Right? right.

44:25.33
forestandtrees
Very curious about Jesus and I'm you know, looking for a way to view all this stuff in a way that's that's not so negative you know like what I said about the the blood sacrifice stuff earlier. Um, yeah, you know there certainly are people who are who are more like anti-theists right? or you call militant atheists who are like.

44:39.56
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

44:44.51
forestandtrees
Yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't want to worship God Even if I met him and for me, it's like it depends on what God is really like you know like your your view of God I think is is much more beautiful than like a straight reading of ah of the bible view of God which is.

44:48.89
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

45:00.11
Jeremy
Sure.

45:03.37
forestandtrees
Ah has a lot more like negative aspects that that you might want to sand down but before the me.

45:10.70
Jeremy
I Appreciate that That's well said.

45:14.35
forestandtrees
Ah, oh thank you all right? Let's let's move on to speaking of Jesus we're talking about Jesus this episode Jeremy you you must love this? Yeah ah verse 25 let us not neglect our meeting together as some people do.

45:20.00
Jeremy
Are we who I didn't notice.

45:31.30
forestandtrees
But encourage one another especially now that the day of his return is drawing near and talking about Jesus is return as I understand it. Um, and so of course this made me think of Matthew 1628 where Jesus says I tell you the truth some standing here right now will not die before. They see the son of man coming in his kingdom. So this statement of Jesus when he's talking to his disciples and saying I'm coming back I'm coming back soon. In fact, so soon it's going to be within your lifetime or at least one of you will still be alive before I come back. It's ah. It's a very theologically problematic statement. It's led to all kinds of speculation and zionism and ah you know books have been written that are called the left behind series about end time stuff and like.

46:21.89
Jeremy
You can't keep referencing left behind you got 1 per episode. You've spent it. You've used it move on.

46:29.65
forestandtrees
Are you breaking up the tribulation force. Oh my gosh. We just started all right all right? So anyway, so for for me like I said earlier I I like Jesus I like Jesus's teachings I think like the sermon on the mount is this beautiful like picture of of.

46:36.90
Jeremy
Um, so.

46:49.63
forestandtrees
Morality that I can totally get behind but this is a statement of Jesus that I've never been able to make sense of and I've heard all kinds of explanations for what does this mean I remember when I was a christian I was like yeah this is a problem but the explanation is 1000 years or like a day to the god so that's that's why when Jesus is coming. He's coming back soon. It's like not that soon to us. Ah, and if so but if Jesus said this and it's not literally true does that make him a false prophet. That's that's where I think that's where my mind goes now and does that mean like we can't trust everything he says if if this didn't come true. So. What's your take on this idea of Jesus is coming back soon. The end is nigh.

47:34.75
Jeremy
So this is a question I've heard you know a lot of people and even I think I've heard like in you know, theology books I've read people talk about you know there were things Jesus was wrong about which I personally am not comfortable with that line of thought. Um, but you know. They would they would point to verses like this like yeah Jesus thought it was it was happening soon. He was wrong. So there are people that would have ah just a very straightforward reading of that first off I want to say I think every generation of Christian wants to believe Jesus is coming back soon. So I think we got to start there.

48:06.51
forestandtrees
M.

48:09.17
Jeremy
There is a like ah an inherent end times bias built into us. It's like I'm a Christian great Jesus. It's gonna be in my lifetime and I just I don't know that doesn't answer the question I just think there there's something funny to that of like how how do we? all? believe it's gonna be in our lifetime and maybe that's but you should believe I don't know maybe it's healthy.

48:30.54
forestandtrees
Yeah I I had that I had the the rapture anxiety. Um this no drug. No joke true story about me I remember being a little kid and thinking I hope Jesus doesn't come back before all the star wars movies come out because I want to see them.

48:44.67
Jeremy
So most of the time that argument is used for Christian couples before marriage I Hope God doesn't come back before our wedding night because I want to I want to try sex. You know the right way before.

48:57.86
forestandtrees
Um, right right.

49:02.50
forestandtrees
Yeah.

49:02.71
Jeremy
That's usually where that argument gets used so yours wasn't sex could maybe because you heard about it from Dobson and oh you weren't interested in it. You were more interested in star wars ah how that for a callback wo ah I love it all right? ah.

49:11.14
forestandtrees
Yeah, exactly exactly beautiful.

49:20.92
Jeremy
Let's answer this question. Okay, so really, what we're wrestling with is what does the phrase coming in his kingdom mean because that's you know the the Matthew passage you read? That's what the phrase says now one interpretation you just acknowledge is that Jesus referring to coming back again which is often you know known as like the second coming. Um. I'm just gonna say I don't think that's what Jesus is talking about here I find that explanation very doubtful. Um, for 2 reasons 1 elsewhere anytime Jesus talks about coming back. It's always super vague and intentionally to the point of like stop trying to guess like you're not gonna know I don't know. And so that's where you see that like that's the context that you find elsewhere. So I find it. It would be I think misleading that suddenly he's very specific this 1 time when all the other examples. He's like it's gonna be a thief in the night. No one's gonna know. But oh now I'm gonna tell you you're gonna be alive. You're gonna be alive. You're gonna be dead. You know it's like. That would that would just be very opposite to what Jesus has says elsewhere on that second it would mean Jesus was wrong which theog got have problems with like okay then he's not who I think he is if he can just be blatantly wrong on something like that. Okay, so I'm gonna say no to that.

50:20.66
forestandtrees
Um.

50:30.40
forestandtrees
Um.

50:40.60
Jeremy
Explanation now you're going all right you you better better replace it with something better I can feel that coming off you Jeff all right I'm gonna give you 2 better explanations and I think you can choose either 1 of these and be fine.

50:45.68
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

50:54.63
Jeremy
I don't know which one ah it is but I would say either 1 of these I I would be fine with and would help me make sense of this one explanation that I think has merit is that Jesus is referring to the transfiguration here now you might go what? how can that be the coming. Ah. Because that's the very next verses after this. So if you read it as Matthew wrote it? What comes immediately following is the transfiguration in Matthew seventeen. So you know Matthew 16 ends on the verse. You read the very next they didn't have chapter headings the very next verse what was.

51:34.35
forestandtrees
Um.

51:34.39
Jeremy
Chapter 17 verse one for us is the story of the transfiguration where you know some of the disciples go up a mountain. They get to see you know god talk to Jesus and so's a whole thing now you're going how could that be the the coming of the lord you know how could that be well interesting that you asked that Jeff. Because second peter has an interesting verse that would lead to this explanation being significant Second peter chapter 1 verses 16 through 18 say this for we this is Peter talking like his own experience. We were not making up clever stories when we told you. About the powerful coming of our lord Jesus Christ we saw his majestic splendor with our own eyes when he received honor and glory from god the father the voice from the majestic glory of god said to him this is my dearly loved son who brings me great joy. We ourselves heard that voice from heaven. When we were with him on the holy mountain. Okay here. Peter is directly retelling about the transfiguration and notice the phrase he uses in verse 16 the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ which is almost verbatim. The phrase using Matthew 1628 the son of man coming in his kingdom right? So I would say that the fact that the transfiguration comes immediately after that verse and then Peter seems to be connecting that phrase with that story as well.

53:05.16
Jeremy
Would make that a very plausible explanation for what Jesus was referring to of this idea of the kingdom coming where you're going to experience something you have not experienced yet this supernatural moment where god the father is essentially acknowledging the son in front of them. And they're like whoa. So I would say that's that's one to me very plausible explanation of what Jesus could be referring to okay option 1 option 2 another way to think about this is that Jesus could be referring to the crucifixion and the resurrection. Okay.

53:32.41
forestandtrees
Um.

53:40.79
Jeremy
You're going to see me coming in the kingdom essentially not literally you know Jesus coming or going but the act of the kingdom you know taking place now think about this in light of hebrews. This one makes a lot of sense because ah the resurrection the crucifixion. The resurrection is what literally ushers us into. The new covenant right? before Jesus Death he had not fulfilled the old covenant that had to happen through his death and his or his resurrection begins a new covenant. A new way of connecting with god through the person of Jesus so in that sense. It's the you know and and. Most of them got to see that right? and so in that sense. It's what officially ends the old covenant and begins something new and so both of these stories not all of the disciples got to see either 1 of those right? So most of them saw either 1 so that works. But then I think you can make sense of what does it mean you know for. For god's kingdom to come. It doesn't have to to be left behind end times. It could be either 1 of those and elsewhere in the new testament gives us support for those theories. What do you think am I out to lunch or that makes sense.

54:54.87
forestandtrees
I got a hand it to you I've I've not heard either of those explanations before I thought first yeah, way to go way to go points for originality partial correct. Ah I like I like those they um I thought for sure one of the things you were going to say was the destruction of the temple.

55:02.60
Jeremy
All right? you.

55:12.28
forestandtrees
In 8070 yeah he didn't didn't even go for that. Ah so I okay so I think those can explain ah Matthew sixteen. So then back to hebrews 25 ten twenty five then what what did what's their understanding of the kingdom.

55:12.56
Jeremy
Nope didn't go there.

55:31.84
forestandtrees
Is coming soon right? because in when hebrews is being written. This is post um transubstantiation Trans post transfiguration post resurrection. Yeah sorry sorry ah post transfiguration post.

55:43.48
Jeremy
Um, we're back in the blood last week

55:48.59
Jeremy
Sure sure.

55:50.72
forestandtrees
Resurrection but they're still saying like Jesus is coming back soon. Um, and you you see this in in many of the new testament epistles. So what's their what's their view there then.

55:56.44
Jeremy
Yeah, so I would say that goes back to every generation. Thanks Juice is coming back I think that's what you see there is is them believing that it is drawing near trying to create a sense of urgency and I Think. You know, probably for them I would give them a little grace. They got to see you know all this stuff happen in their life. Ah so they did probably think this would also Happen. You know like yeah like we saw him die and come back to life so we'll probably see him come back too like.

56:22.57
forestandtrees
Yeah.

56:29.92
Jeremy
From their point of view that probably made sense of like oh yeah, why would it be thousands of years after this like we've you know I don't know I think like almost like you could see from their point of view like that would that would probably be what your default would be but I also think there's a way of. Just kind of creating urgency which I would say a lot of christians do this of like hey you better be ready. You know use is coming. We don't know. It's not It's not a prediction. It's just saying it's you know, technically every day that passes it's more near than it was right? So like logically sure.

56:48.87
forestandtrees
Right.

57:02.26
Jeremy
But I think it's more of it's kind of like a literary device to get people to to be focused on it or thinking about it and I think you see that the writers probably are very much in that camp.

57:13.94
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, and of course you could always say within the span of human history or the span of the universe. It's it's a very short amount of time like we've talked about before um, all right? but just just between you and me Jeremy when's he coming back.

57:21.51
Jeremy
Spur. Yep yeah.

57:29.36
Jeremy
Like a thief in the night.

57:30.27
forestandtrees
You have a date. Okay I got you didn't take the bait there. That's good. Ah, let's ah yeah, let's you know, but many people meant many people have made predictions and all of them have been wrong so far and it's.

57:35.69
Jeremy
Not my first rodeo Jeff.

57:46.57
Jeremy
Many people I made the news one time this is a fun fact I made the news I don't even remember it was one of like probably ten years ago I don't know ah 1 of the latest you know there's some comet or meteor or something in the sky and there's this profit you know and.

57:48.92
forestandtrees
It's easy to all right.

58:02.72
Jeremy
Everybody was talking about it because he was predicting like this is it and I like wrote this blog post and I'm like here's how you know it's not it I just like basically was like here's all the things that Jesus said about it. So yeah I think it was harold camping. That's the name that's come into my mind. Although I'd have to fact, check this.

58:09.60
forestandtrees
Yeah.

58:16.71
forestandtrees
Okay.

58:21.18
Jeremy
Um, but I've taught my head it was harold camping. Um and I think it was like why I trying to remember I think it was a whole I'm guessing it was like a cult thing I don't remember this has been a bit and it's not in my notes I wasn't prepared for this but I just remember.

58:22.63
forestandtrees
Was that someone who like bought billboards and stuff like that or.

58:30.77
forestandtrees
Okay, yeah, yeah.

58:39.84
Jeremy
I wrote this thing and I think it was like why Harold camping is wrong or something and you know all this and I made the news they read my blog part of my blog on like our local news of like hey 1 pastor is calling his bluff saying that that ah I was like oh hey. So yeah.

58:51.32
forestandtrees
Hey that's awesome. Calling out the calling out the prophets speaking speaking truth to power. Yeah, all right? Let's let's stay on end times themes for this this final question before we break up the tribulation force.

58:56.91
Jeremy
Calling out the false prophets. What I do.

59:02.56
Jeremy
Ok.

59:10.29
forestandtrees
1 more thought for you because last chapter last episode you made a big statement that you were all excited about saying Jesus is not coming back pissed. Ah, it's not like I was looking for angry Jesus passages they just appeared to me in chapter 10 here.

59:17.78
Jeremy
I was excited about that I like that statement.

59:28.41
forestandtrees
So all right? So you you posted a clip of that on Facebook and we got a Facebook comment from Terry Lynch so I'm going to read that and then'm going to read just that a smattering of passages that seem to be a little bit of like a angry end times Jesus coming back pissed type view. Yeah yeah.

59:44.74
Jeremy
You're calling me out Jeff okay I like it.

59:48.10
forestandtrees
So here's Terry's comment I think one of the biggest mistakes we all make today is trying to package the gospel including revelation into something that is friendly and acceptable the seeker concept often fails because we shy away from real truth and an effort to let people know what they want to hear as opposed to what scripture actually says. If. You're a believer in the second coming of Christ the second coming of Christ brings great excitement and anticipation if you are not then it brings fear and dread because of what will transpire this would include not only how he returns but also the judgment that ensues afterwards all right? So that was Terry's comment thank you for that. Comment on Facebook terry here's just a couple of passages in verse 26 to 29 says dear friends if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth. There is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. There's only the terrible expectation of god's judgment and raging fire that will consume his enemies for anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the son of god and have treated the blood of the covenant. Which made us holy as if it were common and unholy and have insulted and disdained the holy spirit who brings god's mercy to us verse 31 it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living god and finally verse 39 ah but we are not like those who turn away from god.

01:01:19.39
forestandtrees
For their own destruction. We are the faithful ones whose souls will be saved. Ah so I I take that to me and not all will be saved because the author of hebers is saying. Don't worry. We're the good ones. We're good. Ah, but it's gonna be terrible for some of those other other people out there. Ah all right? Silver first. 29 talks about like it's it's there's gonna be punishment for people who trample on the blood and don't treat it with reverence which did actually make me think about our transubstantiation talk last time of like you need to treat Jesus's blood as something that is very important. Yeah yeah, um, so you know I don't want to be.

01:01:51.20
Jeremy
You gotta drink the wine.

01:01:58.70
forestandtrees
Disrespectful here. But but I do feel like I'm I might be in a little bit of hot water because I've been publicly questioning the Authority the necessity even of a blood sacrifice. Ah I don't think I've yeah yeah, like I don't think I've like.

01:02:09.78
Jeremy
There are there are podcast receipts of it.

01:02:16.20
forestandtrees
Actually said Jesus's blood is worthless or anything like that. But I've I've at least questioned it which might be sacrilege. Ah, and also I just want to say I agree with what Terry has to say of I think there are a lot of pictures of god that are very. Wrathful angry quite negative and the church often does try to kind of smooth some of those passages over ah with this seeker sensitive model as she puts it so jeremy my question for you is? are you sure? He's not coming back pissed.

01:02:52.32
Jeremy
Ah, yeah, this is great. This reminds me of we did a communo Waco event a week ago so after our last podcast and we did a q and a and I was talking. You know, just kind of whatever people want to talk about was was ah like a pure open q and a night and so. You know everybody's questions about anything to do with god or faith christianity and as you would expect I was talking about how good Jesus is and just talking about I think Jesus is better than we expect and so these are all digital questions like you know we're using an app and so I'm like pulling them up on my phone that people can vote for them. And I get to one of the questions and I I copied it down in my notes for for us because I want to read it verbatim this is what someone asked me after I've been arguing the goodness of Jesus someone said this do you worry that you may be giving a person a false security in Christ. Which leads them to hell edit your your question reminded me of that question of are we sure you know we sure he's not pissed like can can it be this good? Um, which I just got to say I I find it psychologically interesting.

01:03:47.82
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:04:06.48
Jeremy
That if you bang on the drum of Jesus is better than we think and god really is as good as we might hope psychologically. There is a pushback that we just go. Yeah I don't I don't think so and then we do find verses that seem to. To push back on that and go what about Ah so here's what I would say though you just gave some great examples in hebrews chapter 10 that may seem a little pissy like little angry right? Ah, but it's a roller coaster cause.

01:04:38.10
forestandtrees
Just.

01:04:43.50
Jeremy
Let me give you a few that are also in chapter 10 that would seem to imply the exact opposite of the verses you shared okay verse 17 I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds woo. That's good verse 22 let us go right into the presence of god with sincere hearts. Fully trusting him now to old Covenant. No one got to go into the presence of god keep his author of here like let us go right in to the presence of god for our guilty consciences have been sprinkled with Christ blood to make us clean and our bodies have been washed with pure water. Let us hold tightly. Without wavering to the hope we affirm for god can be trusted to keep us promise don't waver in this hope hold onto it like you've got it and then verse 35 says so do not throw away this confident trust in the lord remember the great reward it brings you. So I just want to say that to say you can you can you know dial in on any 1 verse and extrapolate a whole huge theology out of it and so if you want to believe Jesus coming back pissed there are verses. You can find. And if you want to believe Jesus is not coming back pissed there are verses. You can find and you can find all those verses just in hebrews 10 alone like they're all there in this 1 chapter. So what do we do? Here's what I would say and I have referenced this before but I think this is this is a great.

01:06:17.61
Jeremy
Bible study 1 ah 1 ah tool if you will. We must make our biblical answers make sense in light of our theological answers which means we read the bible. We take the verses. We try to have a biblical understanding of what that passage is saying. But then we take all of it all the verses and we try to create a theology that makes sense of the entire thing and that's really what we're doing on those podcasts is we're looking at the biblical answers and we're trying to make the theology that makes sense of all that's the forest. And the trees if you will right? So we're trying to figure out can we drill down on these biblical passages and still do it and I would say the reality is anyone who attempts to read the bible or anyone who attempts to follow Jesus is doing this already. You just may not realize you're doing it. You're creating a theological framework that you. Make sense of the biblical passages and so to me what I would say is the reason why I ultimately don't let those verses that you read hold the last you know note for me on. Oh yeah, this is gonna be Jesus because it doesn't fundamentally make sense with the whole story to me. And again you can say well, you're theologically off and sure I might be but that's how I'm theologically putting all these passages together and so again I would say in intent alone. You have both sides of that argument which then you got to go which is it and this I'll go well, you got to take another step back and look.

01:07:50.97
Jeremy
You know at the whole book of you Bruce and then take another step back and look at the new testament you know and just keep going till you get an entire view that you're able to make sense of all of it and you know and so that's what I think we're doing in these conversations and then finally I'll say you know you you read verse thirty nine which is kind of like the ending point on this.

01:08:10.31
forestandtrees
Um.

01:08:10.64
Jeremy
You know, turn away from god to their own destruction. A lot of you. It also depends on how you read them. You know you can read that as this is a reference to hell fire and eternal conscious torment I would just argue this is that's that's a great practical explanation of sin anytime you turn away from god. It is to your own destruction and that happens in real time now. So if I decide today I'm gonna go turn away from god and do things contrary to who god is and the character of god it will ultimately lead to destruction in my life I believe that's the so what of sin. So I don't think that has to be a scary Hellfire I think it's like yeah if you turn away from god you you will not thrive as if you would if you are embracing the holiness he's trying to bring to you and again I want to go back to you and to Terry okay, well why is Jeremy arguing this. Again, Hebrews 37 Jesus will come again. Not to deal with our sins but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him. So I put revelation in light of what hebrews is telling me Jesus isn't coming back to deal with sins. Well where'd you get that from the author of hebrews is saying that. You know it's like you you can make sense of these in a variety of ways you just ultimately have to do it in a way that allows you to look at all the verses. All the trees and still see the forest you like I would just plugged the very theme of our podcast that answer.

01:09:40.71
forestandtrees
Yeah, if you're if you haven't heard. There is a podcast that exists called the forest in the trees will we'll send you a link? Yeah, ah ok so so I agree with you that you could cherry pick you can take to to view like.

01:09:45.92
Jeremy
Ah, you're welcome.

01:09:57.83
forestandtrees
good bad good good god bad god right you could you could cherry pick your verses and support. Whatever argument you want to I think again like to to Terry's point I think it's like it's the same news and it just depends on who you are are you on god's side or are you one of god's enemies. Right? A verse twenty seven s is his judgment and raging fire that will consume his enemies. So I think that's kind of the explanation of there is this binary of there's the sheep and the goats and there's people who at the end of time. It's good news for them people who would end bad news for them. I think you see that throughout but throughout the bible Jesus talks about that in some of his parables. Ah, which so I say that's what the bible seems to teach and it's different than universalism and unless unless you're saying it's this refining fire type thing.

01:10:55.69
Jeremy
Yeah I again I think you we have to realize is even in that we're making assumptions. So we're assuming ah like Okay, so even you know a consuming fire What? what's it consuming the person's soul is a consuming.

01:10:55.93
forestandtrees
I Don't know what you think about that.

01:11:11.60
Jeremy
Their life is it consuming their sin. You know I mean like all those like take that verse and go further. What what is the consuming fire doing right? and so I would say I have no issue with that to go. Yeah, there is a consuming fire and there is a judgment and I think God will burn away.

01:11:13.94
forestandtrees
Sure.

01:11:30.17
Jeremy
All that is not in line with the character of god absolutely and I've even I would even go so far. It may not be a pleasant experience. You know, but I I have to believe it's gonna be redemptive because of who I see in Jesus and the sheep and the goats. Yes I think there are people who live contrary.

01:11:39.69
forestandtrees
Um.

01:11:48.22
Jeremy
Who God is and the people who are trying to live in line with who God is absolutely and I think on judgment they could have a very different experience but I keep going right? like yes I Do think that's true. But I think then what do the goats die Forever like are the goats suffering for like. You know I mean there's always a follow up like just because that verse says that well then you realize you have a theological framework you're applying to that verse and I think you just gotta keep going. Go Yeah so what are you? and again, there's a variety of ways that Christians have made sense of these and so all I'm arguing is the way that makes sense to me. Not.

01:12:14.75
forestandtrees
Um.

01:12:25.70
Jeremy
This is the universal christian answer to any of these. It's just the way that makes sense to me and I happen to have one of the 2 microphones on this podcast so you know it's like it's just it's our conversation with our perspectives and um, and so yeah, those.

01:12:40.10
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:12:42.57
Jeremy
Those verses are there but I don't think they have to mean what we traditionally think they mean that is one way to look at those verses.

01:12:48.26
forestandtrees
Yeah, what? what? you just said there bears repeating of you know one of the one of the ideas with this podcast was I wanted to know what what christians think about this passage or that passage and the reality is the podcast is about what Jeremy thinks about this passage or that passage. Yeah.

01:13:01.77
Jeremy
Correct and it could never be more than that you know I mean and again I I have experience I have a lot of experience with christians you know because of my career and my life you know I've spent nearly 40 years yeah all around christians. So yeah I think I have a pretty good read on it. But I also know that.

01:13:07.26
forestandtrees
For sure.

01:13:12.11
forestandtrees
Um.

01:13:20.50
forestandtrees
Brett.

01:13:21.77
Jeremy
You know there's a bazillion answers to all these questions and you can find christians you know that would argue all sorts of perspectives and I'm just offering the way that makes sense to me.

01:13:34.21
forestandtrees
Totally the ah verse verse thirty one where it says it's a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living god that that made me think I wonder if that was if that verse was the inspiration for the Jonathan Edwards famous sermon sinners in the hands of an angry god. Which which then made me think of I know Brian Zo wrote a book called sinners in the hands of a loving god which which I assume was like a response to that famous sermon. Ah you know all that just to say yeah there are there are people on both sides who view who have the more vindictive angry view of god and the more.

01:13:52.82
Jeremy
E.

01:14:09.85
forestandtrees
Loving forgiving view and and it's all there.

01:14:10.10
Jeremy
Well, and yeah, and even that it's like how deep do you want to go down the rabbit hole because then you get in translation issues and you know I like for that Verse I would love to go to a study What? what's the actual greek word for the word terrible.

01:14:18.40
forestandtrees
Um.

01:14:24.78
forestandtrees
Right? right.

01:14:27.53
Jeremy
And what does that word mean and how is that word word used elsewhere in the new testament and is terrible. A good translation of that greek word and a lot of times you get into this stuff and you're like oh actually it could also mean this or this and the translators just but you know a lot of the the verses that really mess us Up. Sometimes are either ah, kind of a confusing translation or maybe there is a better way to translate it and they went with this for you know, whatever reason there's a book coming out. Ah no, it's I think it's a documentary I Just saw this someone was promoting it making a.

01:14:51.64
forestandtrees
M.

01:15:03.58
Jeremy
Ah, whole claim that the verses that we have translated about homosexuality are really badly translated and it's it's like unpacking hey these verses don't mean what you think they mean and we've translated them poorly and if we look at the actual translations here's what we get and it's a totally different conclusion.

01:15:18.60
forestandtrees
Um.

01:15:23.21
Jeremy
And I haven't watched a documentary this was listening to different christians talk about it and that to me illustrates like well that would that could be a game changer for a lot of people if you're like well the verse says this? Well yeah, your translation says that right? But these are these are ancient languages that were translating into modern day english and these are committees. Usually. Better like what word should that be like I don't know let's just use this word you know and they're making judgment calls. Um, and so that's why I don't think you take any 1 verse and give it all power in your life to define your theology. You've got to take a step back and go what makes sense out of all of this holistically. And then you start putting the verses in to try to figure out how do I how do I weave this tapestry together.

01:16:05.86
forestandtrees
Um, and ah and what a tapestry we've made Jeremy beautiful yup, it's it's like the forest and the trees and everything in between.

01:16:11.34
Jeremy
It's Beautiful. Oh I like that.

01:16:21.90
forestandtrees
All right? Well yep, thank you for joining us this. This was a big One. We talked about all the big stuff and and some small stuff too. So Thanks for bearing with us on this pretty long episode. It's been Fun. Thanks for answering my questions Jeremy as always and ah. But talk to you next time.