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Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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00:00.00
Jeremy
Hey everybody welcome to the pod where here hebrews chapter 9 today is the why is there so much blood episode as always I'm Jeremy and I'm joined with my friend. What's up Jeff.
00:16.19
forestandtrees
They fly now. All right? Yeah that you you know I mean I mean star episode nine come on man I thought about just doing this bit of saying like yeah this the sad thing about star wars is they stopped after 8 they never made an episode 9 so.
00:23.47
Jeremy
Um, that's your quote. Um, what.
00:39.41
forestandtrees
We'll never know what happened but you know what Jeremy I feel like you and I are really forming a forced dadd and we're going to. Ah you know we're going to by the end of this episode. We're going to be lovers or we're gonna be brother and sister or we're going to fully. Realize the power of the the blood atonement one of those 3 things that's going to happen.
01:02.69
Jeremy
Wow, this is this is I think our weirdest opening yet. So buckle up everyone. This is getting weird. Ah, all right? Well on that note today we are looking at hebrews chapter 9 I think Jeff's extra excited about this one. He. He's ready to get into all the blood. So today. We're gonna be looking at whether or not god is really omnipresent. We're gonna be talking about whether Jesus's crucifixion was essentially just a symbolic gesture. We're gonna explore how Jesus can hang out with sinners and finally we're gonna look at. Why god chose blood instead of something else. He had. He had all the options and god chose blood sorgan said it could have been It could have been anything and and ah Jeff's gonna just gonna offer another possibility that it could have been.
01:44.55
forestandtrees
He could have chosen anything truly.
01:53.28
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
01:56.24
Jeremy
So buckle up. It's weird all right before we get there I would like to set set the the tone a little bit with one of my favorite verses from chapter 9 which is hebrews Nine Twenty Eight says this? So also Christ was offered once for all time.
02:03.40
forestandtrees
Um.
02:14.68
Jeremy
As a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people he will come again. Not to deal with our sins but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him now I like this verse because Jeff I don't know if you've had this experience. Um. I know a lot of christians that are under the impression that Jesus is coming back pissed he was happy in the gospels and then something happened once he got up there in heaven. He had time to think about everything maybe had time to think about the way they treated him.
02:38.62
forestandtrees
M.
02:51.29
Jeremy
And so then you get to revelation and all of a sudden Jesus you get angry Jesus and you know a lot of christians have like ah a love for revelation Jesus that the way they interpret. It looks nothing like the gospels Jesus and so I just think hebrews 9 28 gives us a caution against. Angry Revelation Jesus coming back. He will come again. Not to deal with our sins but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him. So Jeff if you wanted Bloody Jesus in revelation I think you're I think you're gonna be disappointed. Yeah.
03:25.57
forestandtrees
I'm even disappointed man shoot as you were reading that I was thinking about that's one of my biggest questions ever about christianity is like what's the deal with the timeline of you know Jesus says he's coming back and his disciples won't die before he comes back? Um I won't ask you that now because I know that's a huge question. But. Yeah, we got ah I got to find a verse where I can ask you that I should have I should have taken the opportunity dang all right? but ah great verse. Yeah I love the I love the idea of ah the peaceful Jesus coming back and not not the bloodthirsty one. That's.
03:44.48
Jeremy
You gotta work it in somewhere.
04:01.29
forestandtrees
I'm into it. Yeah, yeah, that's cool, all right? Ah well I think we better get started like like you said Jeremy there's a lot of blood to get to but the first part of this chapter.
04:02.80
Jeremy
It's what Swa Hebrew Nine says
04:17.92
forestandtrees
Does not deal so much with the blood but it does deal with some of the other ritualistic practices. Ah specifically the tabernacle the first 8 chapters kind of describe the whole tabernacle system which if you're unfamiliar, it's this idea of like god exists. In a specific place in the temple and it's behind a curtain and there's like the most holy place you can only visit once a year and it's it's this concentrated form of god which seems to sort of contradict the idea of god being omnipotent and omnipresent right? He's in all places. But. But he's specifically in this place in the tabernacle in the old testament and I know Jeremy that you can easily explain away the old testament objections as being obsolete. So okay, so forget old testament tabernacle even though it shows up in the new testament when the curtain rips. But also we've got. Jesus I get that that makes sense because he's just a human man. He's a person so that's why he's limited by geography and then even the spread of christianity seems to be limited by human geography and then as as I was thinking about this I thought it's kind of interesting. How. Within Mormonism Jesus does kind of teleport to America to spread the gospel so that there there are ah I don't I haven't read the book. Do you know? what? what were they? yeah.
05:37.66
Jeremy
Is that the is that the technical word he does he teleports.
05:45.33
Jeremy
I I don't think they use the word teleports I was and I was intrigued by by your your recasting of the story.
05:50.67
forestandtrees
Yeah, well anyway, just all this to say um the the biblical view of god as I as I read the bible and think about its implications. It does seem to paint god or at least his message into ah this this non omnipresent. It seems to be limited by geography. So Jeremy my question for you is? are you sure? are we sure that god is omnipresent. What do you think.
06:18.57
Jeremy
So I think this is an example of something we've we've previously talked about but I've made the argument elsewhere in our conversations that god always meets us in real time in real places and with real people and so we've talked about you know this this idea of like it would be It would be convenient in some sense to have like a theoretical god that just is like never dealing with specifics and is just always out there equal to everybody but you know you you read any parts of the bible and you realize that's not the way god works god works with very specific people in you know, specific context at you know real times in history with. Real locations and and so I think this is an example of all the things that you're looking at saying hey this is maybe challenging god god's omnipresence I would say it's more of explaining how god has chosen to interact with us how this is god's you know chosen method to. To start somewhere you know I think we talked about that we're talking about. You know the the nation of Israel why why Israel why not everybody right? because god chose somewhere and then you know spreads out from there I would even say Jesus is really the culmination of this idea and you you kind of reference that but you know for Jesus to become a full human being. He had to give up the exercise of his omnipotence his omniscience and his omnipresence. So I would say these are characteristics of god that Jesus had to put on pause in order to truly experience what it was to be a human which again tells us a lot about god a god that will do this.
07:52.81
Jeremy
But I would say I think I think the overarching biblical argument is that god is omnipresent and there's a variety of examples of this I'm gonna give you 3 that I think are good and so here's here's three that I like that I think throughout throughout scripture psalm One Thirty Nine verses 7 through 12 says. I can never escape from your spirit I can never get away from your presence if I go up to heaven. You are there if I go down to the grave you are there if I ride the wings of the morning which is just sounds cool if I dwell by the farthest oceans even there your hand will guide me and your strength will support me. I could ask the darkness to hide me and the light around me to become night. But even in darkness I cannot hide from you. that's that's I just love the imagery of that that's a pretty convincing god's everywhere argument right? Jeremiah 23 versus 23 through 24.
08:45.35
forestandtrees
Totally.
08:51.10
Jeremy
Says am I a god who is only close at hand says the lord no I am far away at the same time. What says can anyone hide from me in a secret place am I not everywhere in all the heavens and earth says the lord god's like look I'm there I'm here. Um, everywhere right? and then Jeff as if you're gonna say Jeremy those are obsolete because those are old testament passages. You're thinking it you're thinking it I know you're thinking this so I'm anticipating that I'm gonna give you one from our very own author.
09:15.76
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, you can scoop it out but you can't take it right.
09:28.33
Jeremy
Our beloved author of hebrews chapter 4 verse 13 says nothing in all creation is hidden from God which would imply God's everywhere God Sees Everything there is no. There is no location God is not right? and so I would say yeah I think. At least if you want to if you want to give credence to the biblical authors their argument certainly throughout the scriptures is that God is omnipresent.
09:59.60
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, So I agree I feel like that's kind of an example of the bible having some disagreement or or tension with itself again like with the tabernacle you you could certainly argue Well God is everywhere but he's just like. More specifically Concentrated. It's like it's a thicker brew of God I don't know how how would you? How would you explain this like if I was 5 Jeremy. What would you say is going on inside the tabernacle in the Holy place.
10:23.79
Jeremy
He's more potent.
10:29.41
Jeremy
I think god was uniquely available to his people. That's how I would say it so god is everywhere but god was uniquely doing something in that context uniquely showing up right? And so. You know when god appears in a pillar of fire or a cloud in the sky or you know these these kind of supernatural things. That's not to say oh that is only where god is you know and at that point god is nowhere else to be found more It's to say god is uniquely showing up here for the benefit of god's people. And so I would say that you know it doesn't negate to me that god could be somewhere else now again what I what I say said earlier though I do believe Jesus was not able to do this. So if Jesus is with you know these 2 disciples Jesus is not with the other disciples.
11:13.46
forestandtrees
Um.
11:17.58
forestandtrees
Red.
11:19.40
Jeremy
And that is a limitation that Jesus accepted or took on or however you want to think of that in order to fully be human which again is an interesting thought if you went from a consciousness of being omnipresent and then all of a sudden you are located in 1 place that would probably be pretty jarring. Of an experience. So I don't know I don't know what that was like for Jesus but it's it's an interesting thought to think about if you could be everywhere and then all of a sudden you couldn't you know like that's a weird It's a weird expression.
11:47.34
forestandtrees
Yeah, it reminds me I feel like there's this Tick Tock meme of people saying like ever think about how Jesus like he knew what ice cream was but he never got to taste it because he was born into the wrong time something like that and I always like yeah theologically I'm not sure if I agree with that you know does. Jesus know the future because he's god and all-knowing in that way. Ah, right? Yeah, totally.
12:09.77
Jeremy
Well, it gets us back to open theism I would say you know the Jesus that you know was human form at again at a very specific time in history at a very specific place right? that because Jesus is eternal. But. The body and the experience of Jesus was located in a central place I would say he hadn't experienced ice cream because that's something that you know has happened in the future. You know from their point of view and open theism. Would allow for god to truly be present with creation in real time rather than needing to exist in all times at the same time and so I would I'd probably argue against the the ice cream Jesus illustration and I'm with you.
12:53.53
forestandtrees
God The father maybe a little bit maybe a little bit more possibility or still still God The father doesn't know the future right? Yeah yeah.
13:00.90
Jeremy
I Mean now for sure now God's like yeah ice cream's amazing but I don't think I don't think then I mean they didn't have refrigeration. You know like that's hard to it's hard to get ice cream when you can't keep things frozen.
13:12.89
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, yeah, the logistics are are maddening. Yeah, just just milk and honey is maybe the best you can do all right? Well enough of these softball questions Jeremy but this is what this is what people came for right? We got to talk about.
13:16.79
Jeremy
Especially in the wilderness I mean that's tough stuff.
13:32.50
forestandtrees
This blood stuff. Ah so I've a kind of a few different questions about the blood because I feel like that's that's what most of the chapter is about so I'm going to read ah verse 9 and then 13 and 14 this is an illustration pointing to the present time for the gifts and sacrifices that the priests offer. Are not able to cleanse the conscience. The consciences of the people who bring them and the thirteen fourteen under the old system the blood of goats and bowls the ashes of a heifer could cleanse. People's bodies from ceremonial imp purity. Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify. Our consciences from sinful deeds. Okay, so we've talked about blood sacrifice before right? Verse 13 seems to still be operating under the assumption that like the blood of goats and bulls does work at least a little bit because he's saying like. Work. Okay, just imagine how much better jesus' blood works and again we I feel like we've had this conversation and I've sort of been able to make sense of the old testament sacrificial system with this idea that it's just a. Symbolic thing. It's like god doesn't actually need the blood but he allows the blood sacrifice to happen to placate the people's superstitions right? Okay, so let's let's not worry about old testament sacrifice. Let's talk about new testament sacrifice right? because here we are with a blood sacrifice once again.
15:06.22
forestandtrees
And this is one of those things that I've had it explain to me so many different ways. So many times I've read about this the more I think about it the more it doesn't make sense to me and the only way I can make it make sense is if it's a symbolic gesture right? If god is really all powerful. He doesn't need a blood. He doesn't need blood to forgive us. He doesn't need a sacrifice and people will often say like well god had to die to show how serious sin is or to show how much he loves us or something like that which is like okay I hear what you're saying but to me that means that. Ah, crucifixion was performative like I think of it as like performative self-flagellation in this desperate attempt to like make a meaningful spectacle for us and ah. I don't know I'm I'm sure that's a heresy and you're not allowed to say that but that that's how I've that's the best I'm able to come to understand this so tell me where I went wrong here. Jeremy.
16:14.26
Jeremy
Well Jeff ah as a skeptic I don't know I don't know if you can be and a heretic. So I think you're off the hook there hair heresies for people who claim to be following god and make up crazy views of it. Okay, so I understand where you're coming from and I'm going to.
16:17.85
forestandtrees
Oh nice.
16:23.57
forestandtrees
Perfect.
16:31.20
Jeremy
I'm going to argue that no, it's not it's not a symbolic gesture. It's not performance art of what is happening on the cross and so I'm gonna I'm gonna take a pass at this. We've we've explained this before and I I will share I will share with you the this is confusing stuff I will share that with you and so even. As I was preparing my notes I tried to be very clear with my wording in this and I'm I'm gonna try to like walk through a progression so that I say it the way I'm trying to say it because it does get very confusing very quickly and part of that I think the reason why it's confusing is we're working out something in real time in the context of progressive revelation. So there's elements of this that go all along different revelations of god and so we're trying to figure out. Okay, well this was said at that point and this was said at this point and this was said at that point so then how do we make you know I mean and god is like revealing more and more throughout all of this as I'm gonna illustrate in a second.
17:24.18
forestandtrees
Right? right? where I mean which is why which is why I'm trying to frame the question is like I'm just questioning the new testament blood sacrifice. Okay.
17:31.44
Jeremy
Sure but I don't think you can separate that from the old testament because what Jesus is doing I'm going to argue goes back to the old testament. Not it's not in the context of the new testament. Okay, ready all right here we go.
17:39.27
forestandtrees
Um.
17:45.32
forestandtrees
Okay, okay I'm ready.
17:51.70
Jeremy
Okay, step one I don't know be step star. So step 1 god enters into covenant with the israelites in the old testament begin with this concept right? So god has a unique. We've talked about this god has a unique relationship with 1 particular group of people and and got enters into this. Special agreement right? and this is very common in that culture. Not as common for us anymore. Probably the closest covenant terms we think of today would maybe be marriage that's kind of like a familiar covenant. We're familiar with. We're not as big on covenants as they used to be right? but god enters into covenant. Into this special relationship now this this begins all the way back in genesis fifteen with the guy named Abraham when his name is still abram but in genesis 15 and I'm just gonna read part of this cause this is this gets long but there's this whole covenant setup where god saying to Abraham like you look you and your descendants. Ah, we're gonna do this special thing and I'm gonna be your god and you're gonna be my people and we're gonna be you know I'm a set you apart this be this whole deal and so I want to read the value tell end of it because the way they make the covenant the way they seal it liter the phrases they cut a covenant if you've ever heard of that phrase. That's.
19:07.20
Jeremy
You're not gonna like this part Jeff they they take animals and they cut them in half and they split the animals on each side and then the idea is when you cut a covenant you walk in between the halves of these animals and the idea is if you break the covenant. This is what will happen to you will you will.
19:10.81
forestandtrees
Um.
19:26.69
Jeremy
You know you're you're agreeing to death if you will as a part of this covenant. So like I'm walking through I'm making this agreement with you and so you find this happening genesis 15 verses 17 and 18 says after the sun went down hold on after the sun went down and darkness fell abram saw a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch.
19:36.50
forestandtrees
So yeah, kit. Okay.
19:46.56
Jeremy
Pass between the halves of the carcasses. Okay, so this is God the again God Uniquely showing up even though God's on the present God Uniquely showing up here and God walks through the halves of these carcasses to basically you know seal this covenant. Ah, with me.
20:08.21
forestandtrees
I'm with you I Just want to say like this feels kind of like Mafia techniques to me a little bit of saying like we need to make an example of these animals to threaten you right say like this is what will happen to you is that would you agree to that was that.
20:19.67
Jeremy
Welcome to the ancient near East Yeah I said Welcome to the ancient near East This is ah yeah, it's a different. It's a different time. It's a different culture. Yeah, they do different things right? So this was again God meeting them in this space Now here's what's cool.
20:24.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.
20:31.55
forestandtrees
Okay.
20:37.45
Jeremy
There's foreshadowing here because Abram never walks through the haves only god does which the foreshadowing spoiler alert if you didn't know where the bible was going and you you wanted to read it for yourself tune out here spoiler alert the israelites aren't going to be faithful.
20:42.22
forestandtrees
Okay.
20:55.97
Jeremy
Only god will be faithful to this covenant. So god is passing through to seal the covenant and I would say to foreshadow that god is the only one that's gonna honor this covenant. Okay, that's part 1 part 2 now breaking covenant with god leads to death because all sin.
21:06.00
forestandtrees
Okay.
21:15.56
Jeremy
Which is at its root breaking a covenant with god all sin enslaves us to Satan and this is something we've talked about with atonement theories. So I am not a penal substitutionary atonement guy is not Jesus verse the father it is it is god grappling with we have broken out of a covenant. And when that happened satan had a claim to us look your people have not honored your terms therefore they are excluded from you they now belong to me now we've already touched on this in hebrews chapter 2 and so I want to read this again because this plays right back into what is going on hebrews 2 verse 14 and you're gonna get more blood here. Jeff you're gonna be so happy because god's children are human beings made of flesh and blood the son Jesus also became.
21:58.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.
22:10.63
Jeremy
Flesh and blood for only as a human being could he die and only by dying could he break the power of the devil who had the power of death. So what we're seeing here is that Jesus enters into our covenant. On our behalf and has to become a human to do that and Jesus upholds the covenant for us in that we could not do this right? So this is literally what hebrews 2 is saying Jesus had to take on a body had to enter into the previous agreement that was made. In order to give us an out if you will like we we blew this. We did not do it. Satan now has a claim on us. We're stuck until god goes. No no I'm gonna rectify this jesus becomes essentially the other part. So again, this is kind of weird. It's god essentially in covenant with god right? because we can't. Even fulfill. It. So god has to fulfill our part of the of the covenant with god in order to do this. But that's how the the claim that satan has against us because we have broken covenant is now null and void because Jesus entered in took on a body took on the blood and and honored the terms. Of that covenant the way it was urgently made. Now your question is okay so is it symbolic so I would say no if you believe in Jesus this is a very real transaction if you will that's taking place. We owed a debt to to Satan and Jesus erases.
23:43.41
Jeremy
The the claim that the debt had on us. We now are not under this debt anymore because of what Christ has done so it's not symbolic at all Jesus literally had to you know as Hebers Stu was saying for only as a human being could he die and only by dying could he break the power of the devil this is what had to happen. In order for all of that claim that the devil had to be Null and void now what I would agree with you that there is a symbolic part of this in that the way god chooses to break the power of the devil teaches us about the nature of god so. You could say well maybe there's other ways god could have done it perhaps but the way in which god does this jesus fully you know, ah, submitting himself and on the cross forgiving I mean all of this the way that god chooses to reveal power. Shows us the kind of god that this is so there is something to be learned as to how god chose to do it. But ultimately it's not just for show. This is a very real transaction that took place and I would suggest everything is different because of that and so yeah. So this is a very real thing and again this is a I would say an argument we see throughout the book of hebrews that we're getting. We're getting. We're kind of circling back to even in chapter 9.
25:05.82
forestandtrees
Yeah, So okay, so ah, obvious question there which I know I already asked you back with in chapter 2 or something with like what if God's all powerful. Why does he have to follow these rules and I think your your answer to that is that he. He's all powerful. He can do anything but he's chosen to limit himself to his word because he made this covenant right.
25:30.73
Jeremy
Well God can do anything in conjunction with and with who God is so so God I would say God can't act apart from the very nature of God So God can't you know this is where you get into weird like.
25:38.40
forestandtrees
Um.
25:47.86
Jeremy
Seminary debates can god you know, ah be non-loving well no the very nature of god is a demonstration of love. So god can't be contrary to that god can't look other than Jesus like that would be a logical contradiction because god is Jesus Jesus is the full revelation. The exact. Representation as we've seen chapter one of what god looks like. So yeah, there are limits to god based on the nature of god and I think god operates within the limits one of those limits is you know god is not coercive and I think a lot of people. Subtly want a coercive god just come in and decide this and do this and make this happen and god truly honors free will in ways that usually confound us like why are you not doing this and it's like well god is. Is honoring free will because it is in the nature of god not to be coercive.
26:45.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, okay, and then then follow up question ah you're so you're saying it's like this transaction with the devil right is so is that because the devil at 1 point got the drop on god and now you know now god has to. Pay this ransom right? with the kind of the ransom interpretation is that correct.
27:05.78
Jeremy
Well, it's it's interesting that you think about like the temptation of Jesus when Jesus is debating the devil and one of the temptations. The devil says is I will give you all the nations of the earth if you bow down to me and what I've always thought is interesting is Jesus does it. Argue him and say those aren't yours to give he he just says no I'm not gonna do that. So Jesus seems to acknowledge or agree with yeah, that is yours right now. So I do think in the way god has created satan has a claim.
27:27.18
forestandtrees
Um.
27:40.52
Jeremy
And and again I think it's because of free will that god has said yeah you can have this claim to this part of creation if they don't want me like you get them if they if they choose other than me so in this covenant. It's almost like yeah I'm I'm gonna make free will like truly a thing. So if they choose other than me they have something else to choose which would be that this rival force you know not rival in the sense of equality but in in rival and the aims are totally different than what god is out to do and so I do think there are there are things that while creation is in this. Phase you know while Jesus has not returned again. We're in this season where it seems like the nations and a lot of the world is under the authority of satan and I think part of that is you know he also had claim to people who had broken out a covenant and god's like yeah I'm I'm gonna. I'm gonna erase that one like you don't get to keep that one and and the way god does that is again by god being true to who god is to the very nature. Not co caution but sacrifice and submission and that's how god ultimately pulls that off being true to who god is.
28:54.91
forestandtrees
Okay, so so from the Devil's perspective here would would the devil be like wow you got me, you know, fair and square you you played by the rules and because of this. Ah, crucifixion death and Resurrection. Yep I give up my claim on on sin and death is is that a proper understanding of how things work.
29:25.20
Jeremy
I I you're you're making it ah kind of a funny scenario I think it's not a funny scenario in the sense of I think Satan literally was watching the crucifixion. Not realizing what God was gonna do and thinking I'm gonna win I'm gonna win even more.
29:37.96
forestandtrees
M.
29:42.78
Jeremy
Like you're you're gonna die and then I have even more of a claim against your Christian and again I think you gotta realize and this gets speculative for sure. Okay, so now we're getting into angels and demons and you know I have I have my take on those but the old testament isn't clear on a lot of this.
29:51.64
forestandtrees
Um.
30:01.46
Jeremy
As I read it satan was one of the original archangels. There's only 3 that we really find Gabriel Michael and Lucifer and I think Lucifer you know got carried away in himself and decided I don't want to follow god anymore Michael the archangel is the one that.
30:11.91
forestandtrees
Um.
30:20.69
Jeremy
That god says throw him out of here. So I think Lucifer has a hatred of god like a bitterness a like I will Rob all of creation from you like I will literally my existence is now taking from you anything that would. You would enjoy and so I do think you know again, we character we often characterize you know Satan as kind of these funny turns. But I think evil is real and evil is no pun intended hell-bent on destroying any part of good creation that you know that he can. And so I think there is this real battle where satan's thinking on the cross I'm gonna I'm gonna get way more against you now and then when Jesus you know, perfectly sacrifices you know himself and has no sin and all of a sudden realizes all this agreement that god had made has been fulfilled like. No I don't have a claim anymore and like you know and again I think there's probably some choice words between god and Lucifer like no your claim against creation is is again no and void now like you have no claim anymore and I think satan was tricked and there was a verse I'd have to look it up I can't think of top my head there's a verse that says something like if if evil knew. What god was doing. You know he would have tried to like basically stop the crucifixion of like hey this was something like they like the powers of evil didn't didn't understand god's plan had they understood it and I think about even like chronicles and narnia lying the witch in the wardrobe is a great you know.
31:54.95
Jeremy
Like analogy of this the the white witch literally thinks she has beat Aslan. You know when she kills him like oh my gosh you fool like you literally just gave me yourself like you like when you're dead I will rule this thing and doesn't understand. No, you're actually losing right now and so I do think that's the point. I think Satan thought Jesus dies I win game over and then realizes oh my goodness my claim against this creation has now been removed from me and I think it was a very like visceral reaction that satan probably had to this.
32:28.72
forestandtrees
Yeah I was just going to ask if if yeah your your explanation to me sounds basically exactly like the line the witch in the wardrobe illustration of the of Satan basically didn't read the fine print of the the deeper magic right.
32:41.81
Jeremy
Yeah, that's a good way to say it I like that? yeah shoot I should have read down the list.
32:48.20
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, it's it's kind of like how how like the Fbi got al capone for tax evasion right? is just it's all about bureaucracy and you know following the letter of the law and and making these rules work to your advantage.
33:05.72
Jeremy
That's why you always read the fine print kids always read the fine print.
33:07.43
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I I definitely ah do that with all of my software updates. Um, okay, well thank you for that explanation I I don't know does it I think I have to think about it some more. Ah, maybe we'll get into it more with with my follow up questions. But okay, yeah, that that's cool that seems I don't it seems less less bloodthirsty and and less performative than other explanations. So I'll give you that Jeremy I appreciate your answer there. Okay.
33:41.96
Jeremy
Again, It's still mysterious. So I'm I'm doing my best to try to describe something that I think is one of the most mysterious Ah I mean beautiful complicated bizarre things in history like the atonement is.
33:44.40
forestandtrees
M.
33:59.78
Jeremy
Such an interesting subject and to your point It is very confusing and it gets very confusing and that's why I think you know you got to go back and figure out what are the scriptures What point are they trying to make and even then people have different atonement theories you know. So it's like we can't even agree and agree on which theory.
34:13.65
forestandtrees
Right? right? I Yeah like even as I as I was thinking about these questions and writing them I was thinking like am am I Just being a.
34:18.83
Jeremy
Is the right theory.
34:26.99
forestandtrees
Ah, stickler here by trying to make sense of this right? like when I just say the appeal to mystery who can know the heart of god um, but also I mean I feel like this whole chapter of hebrews is trying to explain it right? It's using like logical arguments like only blood could could fix this problem here. So I don't know I feel like the the bible kind of had a chance to be a little bit more open ended and mysterious but it didn't are you still there. You're frozen. Ok all right? Well, let's move on to verse 15.
34:56.56
Jeremy
I I am.
35:05.65
forestandtrees
That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised. Ok so this this whole idea of mediation that um.
35:24.11
forestandtrees
It's it's something I've I've had explained to me a lot It makes me think of this this classic gospel illustration of a chasm right? There's like me on one side and god is on the other and there's this great chasm called sin that I can't cross over and I need jesus to help me cross over. Um, yeah, maybe that's ah, an oversimplification. But I've heard people explain this a lot of ways and it always seems to come down to this idea of god like god the father cannot tolerate sin like I almost think of it as someone who has no immune system if you think of. Sin as germs and it's like if you if me as a icky yucky non-repentant sinner like even touches god he'll just like melt into a puddle or something like that and that's why Jesus needs to be the mediator. So obviously there's some kind of rule breaking here or or there's. Rules don't apply to Jesus in the same way because Jesus of course did hang out with sinners and I feel like that's part of the Gospel story was the fact that it's he's like it's cool I can hang out with these people. You don't need to be afraid of these people but it it seems to suggest that god is a different character who is like. I don't know it. It seems like the opposite of all powerful to me in a way because he can't even tolerate being around sin he'll just he'll just burst into flames or something. So yeah, what What's your understanding of that dichotomy. There.
36:53.44
Jeremy
Why I think what you're saying is definitely the over arching idea you get in the old testament that you know God wants this distance and even I think their concept of holiness was this idea of separate set Apart. You know So I think contagion is a really. Apt metaphor there because it is this idea of like get away. Don't contaminate me I'm I'm holy you know and a lot of the.
37:16.75
forestandtrees
Yeah, especially especially the tabernacle laws in leviticus right? It's all about being clean and unclean like if you're if you're physically unclean like if you touch blood or touch a dead animal or something you God can't be around you.
37:24.67
Jeremy
Totally.
37:31.36
Jeremy
Well and you look at the story of the good Samaritan and you see these levitical codes. You know they the reason why they're passing by the guy is that they would be unclean and and ah and ineligible to work you know because they would be contaminated according to the old testament.
37:43.24
forestandtrees
Um, right.
37:46.15
Jeremy
So I do think that is there and and I I think yeah I would actually acknowledge what you're saying that that is that is the dominant thing. What gets spicy then is when Jesus shows up and is like nope that's not what god's like and you're like huh like what. What happened like what do you mean? and Jesus is the opposite and you know I would say like case you brought this idea of like contamination which is such a good, a good analogy of you know, keep keep your distance from me Jesus is like reverse contamination so rather than.
38:23.96
forestandtrees
Um.
38:25.21
Jeremy
Someone making Jesus sick Jesus makes people better by touching them like it does like the world doesn't even work like that you know I mean nothing works like that like if someone is sick and they touch someone else. The healthy person doesn't make the sick person clean like think about covid.
38:32.16
forestandtrees
Yeah.
38:40.51
forestandtrees
Right.
38:42.46
Jeremy
If if 1 person has covid one person doesn't the healthy non covid person isn't going to cleanse the covid person from covid by touching them that is not. It's like that's not how contamination works but that's how it works with Jesus and you're like what like this something supernatural is going on here. And I just was reading the other day in Mark chapter 8 and your question pinged this story that I literally was just ah, staring at this story because I was like wow I want you to notice how much Jesus touches people when he heals them and I would even say unnecessarily touches them like you could just.
39:19.69
forestandtrees
Um.
39:20.67
Jeremy
Speak it and do the same thing but I'm just gonna give you 1 example, just a few verses but notice in this story. How much Jesus touches this guy. Okay, this is Mark chapter 8 verses 22 to 25 when they arrived at best sayeda some people brought a blind man to Jesus and they begged him they begged Jesus. To touch the man and heal him. Okay, so even the the request would you touch him and heal him Jesus took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the village now again hey follow me, you know out of distance nope grabbed his hand. And leads him out by the hand out of the village then spitting on the man's eyes this implies. He's in his face literally I mean just right in the eyeball right? spitting on the man's eyes.
40:06.98
forestandtrees
Gross.
40:14.96
forestandtrees
Ah.
40:16.56
Jeremy
He then laid his hands on him. Okay, so I mean this is like all touch and asked can you see anything now which I love this response. The man looked around. Yes, he said I see people but I can't see them very clearly they look like trees walking around which that's a whole side. Note. Ah, partial healing is such an intriguing concept to me. Ah, but we don't have time verse way by then Jesus placed his hands on the man's eyes again. He's touching his eyeballs again and his eyes were opened. His sight was completely restored and he could see everything clearly.
40:39.72
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.
40:55.80
Jeremy
I just find this is one of the things you know we talk about like why do I still believe in Jesus I'm just drawn to the guy I mean I I don't know about you I read a story like this and I'm just drawn in like it sucks me in like I want to follow someone like that. That literally breaks every social cue every disgust trigger every just thing that I would probably be uncomfortable with and Jesus like goes out of his way to heal this guy in such a personal way and I'm just in awe of that now with that. And then this old testament god that you go look? Well yeah god was very different I think you have to just say the argument that I have been saying all along is that we we read the old testament god through the lens of what god has been revealed to be like in the person of Jesus which means Jeff.
41:39.58
forestandtrees
Of.
41:51.97
Jeremy
Not only is that other stuff obsolete as the author of hebrews would say not only is it obsolete but it's inaccurate and I would suggest it it portrayed far more of God's people and the way they understood God right than how God really was.
41:56.59
forestandtrees
Ouch, yeah.
42:11.19
Jeremy
Because what we know now is that god looks like Jesus and Jesus did not remotely act like that and so if god has always been like this then again, there were some something they misunderstood or they portrayed onto god and god allowed them to do that god stooped down and said okay I'm gonna let you think this of me. Cause eventually you're gonna see I'm like Jesus um, and so I think that's how god is hanging out and again I'm so glad that I didn't have to stop with the old testament. You know fearful contamination god because that will be a very hard god for me to follow. But. The god that looks like Jesus I'm incredibly compelled by that guy.
42:55.35
forestandtrees
Yeah, but he's okay so I I mean I love that that vision of Jesus as well. You know I want I want to give that all the credit like hanging out with the sinners and being like subversive in this way and like telling the the pharisees. What's up and. All this stuff and it seems like you know, narratively speaking the the fact that old testament god seems very different from Jesus maybe you could you could make the argument that that makes the jesus story all the more powerful I don't know if you would agree with that. It's like this.
43:30.00
Jeremy
I would surprise.
43:31.68
forestandtrees
Building up to this grand narrative where Jesus Subverts everything um yeah that that's cool I mean I I still feel like it has so many implications about like how how christians should treat the old testament which I mean you would. You would probably agree with that as well. Um, but again, new new testament god like he still needs that blood to purify right? like to go back to my um infection analogy. He's still. It's still like like blood is his version of hand sanitizer. To scrub all of our sins away right.
44:12.57
Jeremy
Okay, is this is this your final question because I know you're gonna get to verse 22 so do you want to you want to read 22 and just put it all and put it all into 1 killer question for me. Okay.
44:16.57
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, yeah, well that this is a good transition. Let's let's let it let's lay it all on the table. Yeah, okay, so for ah verse 22 is in fact, according to the law of moses nearly everything was purified with blood for without the shedding of blood. There is no forgiveness. Okay, so this to me is is 1 of the most problematic passages in the bible again like everything I've already said it seems like god for some reason he needs the blood to purify us sinners. Um, and I I talked about this way back in episode 0 when we were talking about John Piper um talk about you know people who have different views of the atonement and I had a family member who actually like lent me a book about the blood sacrifice that was written by John Piper and I read the book. And I felt so strongly about it that I felt compelled to write a full response to the book. Um, and I kind of like wavered on whether or not I should actually give it to that family member or maybe that's the kind of thing if you just you write an angry note and then crumple it up and like you know. It was just cathartic for me. So what I actually decided to do was just write this out and then print it and then slip it into the book and then I return the book to him so I'm like I don't I don't know if he's read it or not um.
45:46.22
Jeremy
Um, that's that's like the ultimate passive Aggressive narky move like hey thanks for letting me borrow this book. You can have it back now and I'm not going to acknowledge the bomb I left on the inside.
46:01.35
forestandtrees
And ah yeah I talked to him a couple weekends ago. He doesn't listen to this show so you don't to worry about that. But um, ah yeah I feel. Ah, you know it. So it says something about me how I'm a person who who has strong opinions but is also a total coward and can't face my my ah accusers. But anyway I just want to read and excerpt from that because it deals specifically with this verse Hebrews 31 because again, the whole book is basically saying. And the book basically starts with a premise of only blood it had to be blood. Why why did Jesus die because the blood had to scrub away the sin. Okay, so here he goes Hebrews 31 says without the shedding of blood. There is no forgiveness here's my question. Why did it have to be blood. Yes, there is life in the blood. But there is also life in water as a vegan I strive to do no harm to any living creatures I get my protein from beans and nuts. Why blood. Why not peanut butter god could have sent a hurricane to decimate a peanut field thus instigating a ritualistic shedding of peanut butter. Maybe it sounds like I'm being glib here. But again god makes the rules Yahweh woke up on a Friday morning and chose violence. So that's my question to you Jeremy why blood? Why not peanut butter.
47:17.46
Jeremy
Ah, ah why not peanut butter all right I'm gonna I'm gonna blow your mind here. Jeff you're ready for this. Okay, this is not as it seems my friend this is not as it seems this.
47:28.70
forestandtrees
Yeah.
47:36.53
Jeremy
I have got good news for you. It may be too good for you to even embrace. But we'll see we'll see if you embrace it all right here we go here's you gotta realize why blood Why not peanut butter if you go historically where did this begin right? where so we're gonna go old testaments when we start seeing this right like what. How did this get started like how do we end up in this whole thing. Well here's what you gotta realize all ancient near Eastern People sacrifice animals as a way of appeasing the gods like across the board. This was a thing they did has nothing to do with the biblical view of God This was a cultural human thing.
48:07.91
forestandtrees
Um.
48:14.99
Jeremy
That you see in all these ancient near eastern religions and cultures. They all sacrifice animals as a way to get right with god now we. We also find this in the biblical narrative it begins in genesis four where you have canaan a sacrifice here's what's interesting. There's no suggestion in genesis four that god ever asked cain or able to sacrifice anything. They just started doing it. Why I would suggest because everybody else is doing it. That's what you did. We're gonna follow our god we gotta kill something. To do it right? because that's just what everybody did and I would say and and I think most scholars would argue that the israelites had been sacrificing animals a long time before Yahweh ever began to instruct them on this. So I think what you realize is they had already. Been doing this. This is a cultural human thing that they were doing and then god's eye all right here's this thing you're into I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna use this to meet you here and help move you along you know towards something better now here's what I would say. Okay, so. I want to I want to be fair to verse 22 and then I'm gonna destroy verse 22 you're gonna be confused right? if the book ended if hebrews ended at chapter 9 we might think my friend that we still need to value animal sacrifices at least a little bit right because you're like well.
49:34.41
forestandtrees
Ah.
49:48.17
Jeremy
Without the shedding of blood. There is no forgiveness that seems pretty clear except I'm gonna give you a little teaser for next week next week chapter 10 verse four says for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away since so. Like definitively nope like if that's what you thought I was saying I'm not saying it. It is not possible like not only like you know we talked about before god say hey I don't really like that like okay, cool, but now the other who's saying it. It never even worked. It is not possible. For the blood of bulls and goats take away scent. So then you're like okay, what do we do with verse 22 seems so clear for without the shedding of blood. There is no forgiveness. Well Jeff I'm glad you asked I'd like to tell you a little story. It's a story that is found in Matthew chapter 5 beginning in verse seventeen I would like to read this story for you and then just point out a couple details here. We go one day while Jesus was teaching some pharisees and teachers of religious law were sitting nearby. It seemed that these men showed up from every village in na galilee in judea as well as from Jerusalem. And the Lord's healing power was strongly with Jesus now some men came carrying a paralyzed man on a sleeping mat. They tried to take him inside to Jesus but they couldn't reach him because of the crowd so they went up to the roof and they took off some tiles then they lowered the sick man on his mat down into the crowd.
51:23.22
Jeremy
Right in front of Jesus now seeing their faith Jesus said to the man young man your sins are forgiven but the pharisees and teachers are religious lost said to themselves who does he think he is that's blasphemy only god can forgive sins now Jesus knew what they were thinking so he asked them. Why do you question this in your hearts is it a user to say your sins are forgiven or stand up and walk so I will prove to you that the son of man has the authority on earth to forgive sins then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said stand up pick up your map and go home and immediately as everyone. Watched the man jumped up picked up his mat and went home praising god everyone was gripped with great wonder and awe and they praised god exclaiming we have seen amazing things today I want you to notice something what just happened. Well, what just happened is that Jesus Healed someone and forgave them without any blood. No blood Jeff no blood in the whole story jesus healed him and forgave him. So.
52:30.51
forestandtrees
Yeah.
52:38.39
Jeremy
What we actually see in Jesus triumphs over this argument which again I think is a conditional argument is not a this is the definitive last word on it. It is a setting up an argument getting into chapter 10 which is gonna ultimately shoot it all down without the shedding above. There is forgiveness was more of what they thought. For so long and then Jesus comes along and is like no I can forgive you and I don't need I don't need any blood to do it and so I think that what we we have to realize is again. My argument is always you let you let Jesus be the filter for every other idea we filter it through the person of Jesus. So you know can you have forgiveness without the shedding of blood. Yeah because Jesus shows it like Jesus demonstrated it and so again, why Jesus had to bleed was more of existing in their terms in their covenant. And what they they were living in the agreement they had not because that like god ever wanted it to be that way or I don't think god ever chose blood I think humans chose blood and god said all right? This is the way you all want to do it I'll show up here I'll meet you here I'll figure out a way to make this work. And the whole time I'm gonna keep showing you something better and keep indicating something better and again by time we get to hebrews ten next week it's like the nail on the coffin this is not how it works and so my friend Jesus could have chosen peanut butter but the people chose.
54:13.38
Jeremy
Blood.
54:13.96
forestandtrees
Okay, and and you're sure that this answer doesn't contradict your previous answer about the crucifixion not being just symbolic and performative. Okay I don't I don't mean to accuse you it just seems a little bit contradictory.
54:25.27
Jeremy
I'm sure of nothing Jeff sure of nothing. Ah no i.
54:32.56
Jeremy
No again, go back to my argument. The reason the reason the old covenant existed is because God was meeting the people where they are so again I think you have to realize God always shows up and.
54:33.67
forestandtrees
That am I missing something.
54:40.66
forestandtrees
M.
54:47.39
Jeremy
The limiting factor of God is never God It is always us. So if if there is a knock on God of God you should have done more. The reason God did it because God was meeting us God was showing up where we were our sin our brokenness. Our bad choice is whatever.
54:50.33
forestandtrees
M.
55:04.95
Jeremy
Right? Always is gonna be something that god has to meet us in that and god has to stoop down in order to do that and so again I think god legitimately stooped down met us in the old covenant and honored the terms of that covenant and you can say that and go yeah that was an agreement that god made with the. But the people of god with Israel where they were right. Abram was living in the ancient near east he was very much the you you go and kill things in order to appease god so god met him and made a covenant with them that would make sense to those people and Jesus honored that covenant and then was able to show.
55:32.29
forestandtrees
Um.
55:43.89
Jeremy
Hey I actually don't work like this and I don't need that and there's something way better now.
55:49.95
forestandtrees
Okay, um, so just quick. Follow up question about Kain and Abel if I remember the story right? Um god accepts ablebels sacrifice and does not accept canes is that right see would so you would have to. Interpret that story as like god didn't actually say I don't accept your sacrifice. That's just what they thought but they were misinterpreting god in that story is that right.
56:14.78
Jeremy
No I would say that I think that that they're both true I don't think they're mutually exclusive I think you can say god never ask either 1 of them to do it and that could be true because again you there is no verse or god says can go and give me this abel go like you just see him.
56:21.87
forestandtrees
Okay, um.
56:32.18
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, okay.
56:33.30
Jeremy
Just sacrificing stuff to god because that's what people did that's that's the point they were just carrying on what people did in the ancient Era east you just you killed stuff and destroyed stuff in order to you know, appease the gods so they just do this naturally and then god is looking at what they're doing and I think is looking at their hearts is looking at what they brought. And realizes hey you know Abel's bringing something very different to me than what cain is and is he's responding to that not responding to how much did you do? what I asked you to do because he didn't ask him to do either. But I think the nature and again we see this very shortly after their hearts were very different.
57:02.36
forestandtrees
Right.
57:09.40
forestandtrees
So.
57:11.48
Jeremy
Ah, you know Ka and Abel were were brothers but they were not not alike in a lot of areas and you very quickly see that when Kane you know gets ticked. It's like all right fine I'll just kill Abel and you know like oh okay, well yeah, maybe that same thinking. Was in effect in whatever he chose to sacrifice to god.
57:29.47
forestandtrees
Okay, so so it's kind of like I'm just making up this analogy on the spot here. It's kind of like let's say it's my birthday right? But I don't tell anyone I don't ask for any presents and then you get me a birthday present and it's a really lame present and I can tell your heart wasn't in it. And instead of saying nothing I'm saying unacceptable Jeremy this is a dumb present I do not accept this is that is that a proper analogy for like god not accepting the sacrifice that he didn't ask for.
58:01.78
Jeremy
Um, Okay so see seize your analogy here. It would be like if if you had 2 friends and both friends showed up and one had like gone so far above and beyond. Put a lot of thought into it and got you something that you really really liked and even if you didn't ask for it. But you're like oh my gosh I didn't even think you were gonna like that's incredible Again. We've all had gifts like that where you're like I didn't ask for it. But that's an incredible gift like you put thought into it you put time.
58:29.10
forestandtrees
Um.
58:36.14
Jeremy
And you could be like very demonstrably grateful for that. Even if you didn't ask for it. You could be like that is an incredible gift. You know me so well and then someone else I'm I'm not gonna say it's me because I wouldn't do this but okay, maybe me maybe it's me Ah, it'll be me, you know I come okay here we go you ready.
58:46.35
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, you're I'm sorry I'm sorry that was that was out of line on my part.
58:56.14
Jeremy
I'm thinking on the fly I come and I'm like Jeff I just got the best new steaks from Nebraska these things are so good. You're gonna love them. Yeah here you go I got you some steaks would you not say to me dude you know I don't eat meat.
59:06.67
forestandtrees
Ah, right.
59:13.98
Jeremy
But what do you want me to do with this like there would be any you would say it nice cause you got that nice. You know Minnesota vibe in yeah, but at some point you'd be like. Ah yeah I don't eat me so you know I don't know why you got me that like there would be some acknowledgement of this is not a great gift and I think that's what you're seeing is.
59:19.25
forestandtrees
Right? right.
59:33.70
Jeremy
Ka and a like one gift really is reflecting who god is and is meeting it and the other one's not and again, there's not a lot of details there. So it's a lot of speculation. We don't know why but god looks at Cain is like look this isn't doesn't the same thing that Abel gave me and I think you can use that you know.
59:42.76
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah.
59:52.65
Jeremy
You would not love if I got you if I took you out for a nice steak dinner that would probably not be your thing right? yeah.
59:58.13
forestandtrees
Right? I just get the baked potato right? And of course this analogy is is completely backwards because in the can and a story right? The the meat is the good sacrifice and the vegetables are bad but I get that there's more going on there. Um, okay so final final question because. It's all it's all about Jesus right? The person of Jesus what about communion right? doesn't Jesus Command us to basically celebrate the blood sacrifice in remembering it with communion when we gather to meet.
01:00:28.97
Jeremy
So I think what Jesus does is he takes all the concepts of the old covenant and again for them. You gotta realize this was like passover. So Jesus is hijacking something that they would have already done and so they literally were celebrating passover together and then he says. Hey this thing that you've been doing for generations now I want you to do it and I want you to focus on me instead and like they would have been like wait wait. What like this is all about you know, like yeah yeah I know you've been like doing this whole thing and you know you get together. But now as we celebrate this together I want you to think about me. And like this is all gonna be about me and so I do think you gotta it's all in context jesus is is meeting them where they are taking an image they would have been familiar with and he's hijacking it and he's pointing it all to them now. Why do you know? It's different and this is the exception to this will be the catholics. Is that we're not actually drinking blood where there there is no more blood involved in communion now again acknowledgement if you're catholic, you're an exception catholics believe in something called transubstantiation which is the belief that during the act of cunion. It.
01:01:26.80
forestandtrees
M.
01:01:37.92
forestandtrees
Um.
01:01:41.31
Jeremy
Elements literally become the blood and the body of Christ so that is a catholic ah belief and practice. But if you're protestant you go? No, it's not. It's symbolic and so that's how I would say yeah, he's using elements that they understood. We're all part of this previous covenant and then he's bringing it forward dropping the blood part off the blood is now just symbolic. It's not real blood anymore which is a huge distinction I mean right? like we can acknowledge like oh yeah, he actually stopped all that because now we there's nothing that that gets killed anymore for us to.
01:02:16.13
forestandtrees
Um.
01:02:16.55
Jeremy
Communion with God It's it's all symbolic and you know if you're a good Christian you use wine. Obviously that's what you know real Christians do.
01:02:23.96
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, yeah, make sure you get that plug in there Jeremy Communion Wineco ah yeah yeah transubstantiation I I love that doctrine because it's always it always just seems.
01:02:28.80
Jeremy
Um, Hashtag Comun Waco. Ah.
01:02:38.68
forestandtrees
So absurd to me and I like whenever I meet a Catholic I Always ask them about that and then half the time they have no idea what I'm talking about. Um, yeah yeah I mean I I know people who are like.
01:02:44.60
Jeremy
Oh really.
01:02:51.91
forestandtrees
Culturally Catholic I Guess you would say and so I'll ask them but like do you actually subscribe to like Papal infallibility and transubstantiation and all this stuff and they're like okay you know more about catholicism than me. Um, but then I had when I ask like a a more you know serious Catholic that you know they have this really long explanation that. And as far as I can understand still seems to just boil down to yeah, it's Symbolic. It's not literally blood. So I Always ask if it's literally blood like does it taste like blood. It doesn't taste like wine Anyway, sorry this this is getting a little bit off topic. It would be better to ask a catholic than to ask you.
01:03:26.46
Jeremy
Well, that's true. Ah, but fun fact we talked about Richard Beck's book last week hunting magic eels he talks about this and he has a line that I thought was really good on this. He says you know essentially and I'm paraphrasing here but communion for a protestant is about remembering.
01:03:28.52
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah.
01:03:44.60
Jeremy
Ah, communion for a Catholic is about a miracle that's like an interesting way to say it right? because like if you're Catholic you're literally experiencing a miracle every time you do that because they are believing God is is changing these elements whereas you know.
01:03:48.63
forestandtrees
Oh.
01:04:00.46
forestandtrees
Um.
01:04:01.90
Jeremy
The rest of us would say no, it's it's symbolic. So I do think it's interesting. It's also why the priest drinks all the wine that's left over because you can't can't have left over Jesus blood.
01:04:08.98
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because if that that blood got into the wrong hands. Um, people could perform more ritualistic practices right. I mean I I know it sounds like I'm joking but isn't that kind of the explanation. Yeah that's what I remember from Christian Doctrine was when they were explaining that was they were saying that that's the reason he has to drink all the blood because it's too dangerous to store Jesus's blood
01:04:23.94
Jeremy
That's an interesting thought the blood got into the wrong hands like what would they? What would they do with Jesus' ' blood yeah it's interesting.
01:04:39.76
forestandtrees
Somewhere because someone could ah could you know do witchcraft with it or something.
01:04:39.95
Jeremy
Well that is interesting too right? because like this is where I think you know you you and I both would be a little skeptical of like all right? Well then let's say that Miracle really does happen every time you know then shouldn't you be able to scientifically do a study on.
01:04:50.89
forestandtrees
If. Yeah, yeah.
01:04:58.16
Jeremy
Wine at the end of communion after everyone's done it and it should be literally blood right? like you could you could measure it correct which to my knowledge has never happened. So I think that's where you know that's where the skeptic and me go yeah may maybe not you know.
01:05:01.24
forestandtrees
Yeah, this seems like it'd be incredibly easy to test. Yeah.
01:05:13.81
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:05:15.38
Jeremy
I like the idea I love like that miracle. It is a little weird to take Jesus literally that you know this comes from John 6 to take that image literally like unless you drink my blood and eat my flesh like o but yeah, it should taste different like I don't know never eaten a human before.
01:05:20.28
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:05:27.50
forestandtrees
Right? I've I've thought about this way too much like I have I have this pet theory that you could make the argument that well because Jesus is inside of us right? So it's like it's still wine and bread when it's going down. But then after your body absorbs the nutrients. That's when it becomes the literal blood of Jesus because like food you know your body literally like absorbs food and turns it into blood and flesh right? because it it regenerates cells to with the nutrients. So i.
01:05:57.10
Jeremy
But then the priest wouldn't have to drink all the leftover wine.
01:06:01.32
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, that's true. That's true Anyway, that that was kind of the best like argument I could come up with when I was trying to think of how could this possibly make sense. Ah yeah, yeah, the ok so it's about remembering the but.
01:06:08.61
Jeremy
Yeah, that makes sense.
01:06:20.21
forestandtrees
But if we didn't ask for it. We could remember a different ceremony right? like gee like communion could have been apples and peanut butter If if we started out with a different.
01:06:31.50
Jeremy
There's There's a great meme and I'd have to I'd have to do some digging to find this and maybe maybe you're able to find this but and that talks about like depending on your different traditions. What how far you're willing to go with the Commun elements. You know I mean like.
01:06:35.35
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:06:44.82
forestandtrees
So.
01:06:47.46
Jeremy
And there's like all these like little like diagram where you can figure out you know I'm in this category therefore these are the elements I'd be comfortable with it was a pretty funny like you know chips and salsa is that does that count. You know do have to have like a liquid in a solid like how far how far do you dig it.
01:06:57.36
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah well we we ran into that for real when I was working in a church during Covid because we you know we it was all online and we had just a slide that said you know please take use any elements you have lying around to. Do your own communion. So We would say like it's if you don't have wine or grape juice in the House. You can just use water or whatever. Which yeah I don't know Yeah, which which goes back to just the. It's all symbolic right? It could be anything I don't Know. Um.
01:07:20.99
Jeremy
Who progressive? wow.
01:07:35.80
Jeremy
Ah, very protestant of me. Jeff.
01:07:35.25
forestandtrees
Ok, yeah yeah I know um Richard Beck would not be happy with how how fast and loose I'm playing with with these elements these the precious blood of christ. Oh really? Okay, ah.
01:07:44.60
Jeremy
I think Richard I think Richard back would would have your back on that.
01:07:52.44
forestandtrees
All right I think we solved it right? We we uncovered the great blood. We got we swam through an ocean of blood and we came out stronger than ever at anything else you you want to add about this chapter Jeremy Do you.
01:07:54.95
Jeremy
Um, we got to we got through the blood.
01:08:01.40
Jeremy
So much blood.
01:08:11.42
forestandtrees
Feel okay about your explanations.
01:08:12.11
Jeremy
I do and I also acknowledge that you know it's still I think this is such a weird image and it's so crucial to so much of history in the old testament and you know generations of people who've been following god. That it's hard for us from this vantage point to truly you know make sense of it and so I just acknowledge it is weird I totally get every time I read John six I'm like this is weird. Um, but I think again where I or I just kind of back up and go but it's a reminder to me that god always meets people where they are and.
01:08:37.10
forestandtrees
A.
01:08:48.85
Jeremy
Not where they should be or where you know he might want him to be but God meets them where they are and you know and progresses along and so God had to start with ancient near Eastern people and that's where God started and slowly brought them along and you know you read a lot of history and you realize oh yeah, they. Lights were were just doing what everybody else was doing at that point and so God's like all right here we go let's figure this out.
01:09:13.58
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, so the israelites are right? They're different but they're just a little bit different than than the other tribes. Um, yeah, totally Ah, okay, well yeah, we solved it. Thanks everyone for listening. Ah.
01:09:20.51
Jeremy
They're not that different in a lot of ways.
01:09:31.51
forestandtrees
Oh by the way episode nine s that means we're through the Star Wars episodes I don't know what might I I have some ideas but if anyone else wants has has ideas write us in tell us tell us what is a good new bit for me to do and the good news is um.
01:09:34.35
Jeremy
Oh no, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do next week.
01:09:50.79
forestandtrees
Old testament is obsolete and there's nothing wrong with ritualistic blood sacrifice anymore. So that problem is solved onto greener pastures with chapter ten next week see you there.