Hebrews 8 - The Enchanted Light Show

We’ve gone full Woo Woo. Jeremy’s tries to convince Jef to see the magic in our cynical world. Jef asks if that was God or just the wind?

Topics
Worship - Why does God require worship?
Production - Is God all smoke and mirrors?
Enchantment - Is there magic in the real world?
Biblical Literalism - Did God Write the 10 Commandments?
Old v New Covenant - Why not just start out with Jesus?
Is everyone saved by default?

Book Recommendation
Hunting Magic Eels By Richard Beck

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Transcript

00:01.00
Jeremy
Hey everybody welcome to the forest and the trees we are talking hebrews 8 today. My name is Jeremy and I'm here with my constant amigo. Mr. Jeff.

00:10.74
forestandtrees
Did you come back to forgive me to save my soul. Oh oh Wow Welcome. You come to the right place.

00:16.55
Jeremy
Yes, Jeff I did that's exactly why I'm here. Oh was that a star wars line. Oh oh this is awkward at this is wow I misunderstood I misunderstood.

00:25.50
forestandtrees
What are the chances. Yeah that I would open with that.

00:32.55
Jeremy
Well, we are talking hebrews 8 today and in case you wanna know where we're going. We're gonna talk about worship talk about whether the 10 commandments actually happened why god seems to be a bit slow at times and whether we can know god without realizing it. And Jeff we've also got in chapter 8 we've got some fighting words. We've got the author of hebrews getting salty so much so that I would say if I were to say what this verse I'm about to read says I would get flak I would get nasty emails I would get.

01:08.87
forestandtrees
Wow.

01:09.43
Jeremy
Christians denouncing me left and right and yet I'm I'm going to read I'm gonna read the bible for you Jeff I'm go read hebrews Eight thirteen brace yourself friends this is salty hebrews eight thirteen the author says when god speaks of a new covenant. It means. He has made the first one obsolete it is now out of date and will soon disappear you think about that death.

01:35.13
forestandtrees
Wow Yeah, those those factory settings are are no longer. It's time for the new software out.

01:44.50
Jeremy
New soft alert version. 2.0 is kick in version one out the window remove it off your computer.

01:50.53
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, make sure you get all of those um archived versions of the Adobe software before you have to start paying your subscription fees. Yeah yeah, yeah, absolutely.

02:01.20
Jeremy
Ah, back up your files now they're going away. They will not work now. Fun fact I have leviticus 1928 tattooed on my arm and I know everybody listening this podcast is obviously very familiar with leviticus 1928 most most of our christians listening probably you know you're doing leviticus in your morning bible studies I know and in case you're a little hazy levikus 1928 is the verse that prohibits marking your body with a tattoo and people you know it's a good conversation starter and people say what does that verse mean and then I tell them.

02:24.88
forestandtrees
Ah.

02:38.60
Jeremy
And then they kind of look at me like but you put that on your body and so Jeff I had the idea it would be good to get hebrews eight thirteen on my other arm. What do you think? So then I'd just be like 1928 don't tattoo your body and people go what Why'd you do that and then I go oh well look at my left arm hebrews 138 the first covenant is obsolete you think that think that would work.

02:58.93
forestandtrees
I Like that. Yeah you have the it's kind of like people who have love and hate tattooed on each of their knuckles. You know it's the ying and the yang old and new covenant. Yeah, you're building out a whole theology with your body art I like it.

03:06.54
Jeremy
Yes I like it just easy money just just giving my body over to the cause Jeff so I I just got to be honest I love I love heber's eight 13 I mean this is.

03:18.19
forestandtrees
Yeah, what's a temple.

03:26.11
Jeremy
This is essentially what we've been talking about this entire podcast throughout this book of like well yeah, but what about this and what about that and and you know you get to verse or chapter 8 and the author's just like look it's obsolete like let go of the old covenant and all the craziness. It's out of date.

03:28.41
forestandtrees
Um.

03:44.64
Jeremy
It will soon disappear and I think I think there's a lot of christians that don't know that verses in in the bible.

03:52.25
forestandtrees
Yeah I can see how it can be sort of the ultimate Trump card for for any kind of objections I have to old testament um monstrosities and stuff that are spoken of you can always just say old covenant enough said. So.

04:06.94
Jeremy
I think I'm just gonna start yelling obsolete every question you bring up that I don't like I'm just gonna say obsolete out of date Jeff it will soon disappear. Not even gonna entertain it.

04:08.56
forestandtrees
It's.

04:11.89
forestandtrees
Your argument is invalid Hebrews 138

04:20.99
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's.

04:23.94
Jeremy
We should have started with this verse. Why why? Why do we waste so long I needed this.

04:28.30
forestandtrees
It's true I'm I'm sorry to everyone who who wasted the last eight weeks of their lives.

04:33.69
Jeremy
We we got to the good stuff in Hebrew's eight so there there we are all right? Well you know what? even though it's obsolete Jeff I want I still want to hear your questions I still even though they they may be out of date and they may soon disappear I I want to know hebrews 8 what are you thinking.

04:35.45
forestandtrees
Yeah.

04:51.46
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, well um, I hopefully I have some some new testament questions as well. There's you know it's not I will say it's harder to pick on the new testament than the old or at least in my personal experience. But I think there are some problematic passages in. In both sides of the book and let's let's start in verse 2 which talks about this idea of worship which I believe is is in both the old and new testament. So verse 2 says there he ministers in the heavenly tabernacle the true place of worship was built by the lord and not. By human hands. Okay, so this is this is referencing worship in the old testament with the tabernacle and the the system. But again I believe this carries on into um new testament times. Certainly? that's it's a huge part of like Christian Church culture

05:32.83
Jeremy
Right.

05:46.80
forestandtrees
That I've experienced the idea that god needs to be worshipped and that is so some would say that is literally the meaning of life is just to worship god right? Whatever that means? Um so a couple comments here right? Jeremy you had a recent blog post about worship and. Um I I really resonated with it because I thought that was a really great kind of question. You brought up of like why is our view of worship. So limited to music I felt like when I was in church that was something I heard people talk about all the time was saying like worship can be anything. It's not just music. But that said like.

06:22.12
Jeremy
Sure.

06:24.20
forestandtrees
We're just going to do music because we don't know what else to do So yeah, yeah, exactly? Um, so that's that's just kind of a ah comment there. Um, but the more of the question that I have again this is something that.

06:28.39
Jeremy
Um, it could be anything now sing these 3 to 4 songs with us.

06:43.12
forestandtrees
Feel like was just so normalized so ingrained into christian culture I didn't really question it until sort of after I took a step outside of it but just the whole concept of worship and god's desire to be worshipped what what sort of person would require that. And what? what does that say about god's character and I was even thinking about what we talked about last week when we talked about god is very secure and who he is. He doesn't feel the need to defend himself. But apparently at least in my understanding he does feel the need to have his subjects sing his praises endlessly. So. That's my question if god is fully secure in who he is why does he require worship.

07:27.93
Jeremy
This is a great question and I I think you you touched on a little bit of the built in humor of it. You know if if God is so so confident and then ze yeah but sing about me all the time you know it's like well who who asks us to sing to them all the time. That's that's a little bit weird.

07:38.84
forestandtrees
Yeah.

07:47.17
Jeremy
And you referenced the blog post so in you know in case, someone hasn't read that basically I've been on a recent journey of my own trying to figure out a little bit about where we've gotten to in the church today with worship and it came out of a conversation I was doing some consulting work with the church and I was meeting with one of their teams and. 1 of their worship leaders was asking me about our community wineco gatherings that we do and we do this in a bar primarily or you know winery and he had said or he had asked me. Do you guys sing songs at this and I said no, we don't and then he said would you ever consider it and my initial reaction was no. And it was like that'd be weird and then I started thinking more about that question after I left and I was like am I missing something like should I be you know and does any type of Christian gathering should it include worship. You know is this like a key a key thing that god wants so I did a little digging acts. Chapter 2 verse 42 really gets us to the heart of like what the early church did and I'm not one of those guys that thinks hey we you know we got to do everything the way the new testament people did it. But I think you you look to the new testament as a model of what what do what? do they think was important well in acts, Two forty Two there's 4 there's 4 ingredients that it says the early church focused on. Those 4 are prayer the apostles teaching fellowship and ah I wrote prayer down twice in my notes hold on I have to actually this it's not prayer twice.

09:12.69
forestandtrees
If you honest, just start over and we can just we can just cut that in. No, it's like a.

09:18.95
Jeremy
Sorry to do this to you.

09:34.59
Jeremy
All right? So I went to acts two 42 and in acts two forty two it gives you 4 ingredients of what the early church did and so not that we have to replicate this but just these are what they focused on 1 was prayer 1 was the apostles teaching. 1 was fellowship and then the fourth says sharing in meals which there's like depending on your translation was like oh also this includes communion and as I stared at that 1 giant thing jumped out at me. There's no worship. There's no singing so these four things that you know at the new testament.

10:05.66
forestandtrees
M.

10:12.55
Jeremy
Church did that singing wasn't one of them. So this guyman is like whole journey and this is a whole side note which is way more than your question asking. But I've started to ask the question have we overemphasized a need for worship in our expression of church today and here's the fun fact Jesus never said sing. To me or sing about me and there's no verse that says that so you have examples of Jesus and his disciples singing a hymn you have examples of Paul instructing people. But you don't have this like huge thing and so I actually think my answer to your question is I don't know that god. Requires it quite as much as we think if that makes sense and I think we may have overemphasized this I think if god is as good as I believe god is.

10:54.99
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

11:05.85
Jeremy
Then worship would be an automatic response to that. It's more of an acknowledgement of reality. You know like you are good and you are the source of good and so I think that can be very natural without god saying no sing more sing more more songs. You know, keep keep going I need I need more of it. And so I think it's almost more about us aligning ourselves to the reality of of our imaginations about god rather than it is god saying I got a quota and I need 20 more songs sung about me today. It's it's Saturday and it's been a while since Sunday rolled around so get. Get to singing everybody.

11:39.55
forestandtrees
So How does that affect your view of heaven I'd say like when I was a Christian my perception of heaven was like it's not just laying on a cloud and. Jet skiing and having fun doing whatever you want. That's the cartoon version of Heaven. The real version of heaven is we're singing songs to God all day we're worshiping him nonstop. Yeah well it Yeah I mean that's you know that's kind of an easy joke to make of like you know if.

12:01.77
Jeremy
I'd rather have the cloud. Oh.

12:07.94
forestandtrees
If heaven is just an unending Chris Tomlin Concert then count me out. But um, what where was I going with that I guess does that come from like the ah the book of revelation when has the heavenly creatures who are saying holy holy holy nonstop is that where we get that idea or What do you think.

12:28.21
Jeremy
Well I think it's partly that I think you know there are like examples of that I Also think it's based on practice you know on average about half of a traditional worship service if you go to almost any church. You know this weekend about half the time is going to be singing.

12:33.55
forestandtrees
Um.

12:44.46
forestandtrees
Um, right.

12:47.59
Jeremy
And again, that's in most expressions of this and so I think partly we just assume that's what we're going to do for eternity and it's been recently that I've kind of been you know trying to peel back the layers of that to go ah are we are we taking this too far. And you know here's what I'm thinking about from a practicalical point of View. We've talked about I don't remember which chapter was but weeks prior we had talked about where a lot of the money goes. You know when when we give and your question was does giving to the local church equate you know generosity to God and I think the reality is because of the emphasis of Singing. We need really big sound systems and we need moving lights and we need you know a lot of the things that we need are are because of the emphasis in singing if you were to redesign it. You wouldn't need as much of that. So. It just got me thinking again. I'm not This is not an indictment on anyone who sings Worship Song. It's more of like ah a journey I'm in lately trying to figure out is is there a healthy balance here. Have we gone too Far. Do We need to rethink this and you know and we talk about what is the future of the church look like it's gonna keep being reimagined. Maybe we need to make room for it to be reimagined without such an emphasis on singing this. Kind of where um, my thoughts are.

14:03.38
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I agree it would be interesting to hear from someone who is more of like a a worship leader type person or even a production type person like I've but we both have worked in Ministry So We both like know people like that Personally um. Yeah, and I feel a little bit bad for how much we dunk on the production team but just to dunk on them a little bit more because we're talking about the yeah yeah for sure. Um, because of the lights and fog that we talked about earlier with the church budget and things like that I feel like that's.

14:24.42
Jeremy
I Feel bad but let me do it again.

14:38.17
forestandtrees
That's a very obvious and common critique of the modern church experience right? is like why does God need a fog machine. Why do we need moving lights for this and kind of ah a slightly different um version of that critique that I think about a lot is if. If The idea of worship is you're actually experiencing the true um presence of God The Holy spirit or or whatever the the joy of the lord. What Why do we need these smoke and mirrors this light show to me that seems like almost a dis. Proof of the existence of God if we need to kind of manufacture. This spiritual experience. What do you think about that.

15:21.79
Jeremy
Well I think you're Dunkin on production again and we both have done this and so I'm gonna defend production for a moment and then no you may you may be surprised by this Jeff where I'm gonna take this but I have been reading a book I'm not even finished with it I'm almost done that. I want to officially on the record Jeff with with our listeners as my my record keepers I want to recommend a book to you that I keep thinking about you as I read this book and the book is called hunting magic eels which I think is a fantastic title hunting magic eels.

15:53.85
forestandtrees
Cool, cool title. Yeah.

15:58.70
Jeremy
By a guy named Richard Beck and he his whole premise of the book is rediscovering the supernatural the the mysterious the magic if you will of god rather than what we have often boil it down to and he makes us premise in the book. This is just a ah thirty Thousand foot summary of this Basically we've equated you know christianity is about being a good person and he says the problem was when that is what christianity is boiled down to you realize at some point you don't need god to do that like you can be a good person you know and and you don't have to actually follow god to that and there are a lot.

16:35.41
forestandtrees
Um.

16:36.87
Jeremy
A lot of atheists that are good people that love and you know don't don't go out and just want to murder everybody like you can be a good person and not follow god and so he actually talks about what it means to be a christian is to experience the supernatural to experience the the awe of god and to be attuned to that. And so he has ah a line that I thought about in in response to your question. He says when faith is a matter of attention and that's like 1 of his arguments. That's that's kind of what faith is is in a matter of attention. We need visual cues to capture and captivate our hearts and minds. So Beck is not necessarily arguing for you know the smoke and the mirrors and the light show but he's saying we do need aids that that help us to retune ourselves to to refocus our attention on god especially in the midst of it and he talks about a lot of things you know, even in some like little liturgical. Ah, traditions of you know like a prayer rope or different things that just kind of help you you know help guide you into I I need to focus on god here where I might be naturally unfocused. But I think that at it at the core. That's that's that's what that experience can offer now. Does it need to be millions of dollars no I don't think it needs to be but I also you know don't want to just totally dunk on it and say all of it's a waste because I do think it can help people to use his you know his phrase capture and captivate our hearts and minds when you have an experience when there's someone that directs you to that and so I think there's lots of ways to do that.

18:09.59
Jeremy
I think that that that's the category I put it in but Beck also has a quote about faith and and Jeff I'm going to ask you a question and I told Joe's gonna ask you this but I really am curious because I like I like this definition of faith and I'm curious whether you like it too or whether you're going to dunk on this. Um, but for me this this really resonated. This is what he says same book hunting magic ills says faith is a matter of perception faith isn't forcing yourself to believe in unbelievable things faith is overcoming attentional blindness phrase differently. Faith is about enchantment or rather a reenchantment the intentional recovery of a holy capacity to see and experience god in the world. So I'm curious Jeff and your own journey. What do you think about? Beck's understanding of faith.

19:05.25
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, it's it's a very interesting quote and um I had yeah I hadn't heard of Richard Beck before you shared this quote with me. But so I've been yeah thinking about this and and looking up some interviews with him and stuff like that and it it makes me think of. Something that I've heard from a lot of different kind of atheist type thinkers I think Matt dillahunty is probably 1 of the biggest proponents of this of saying like you can't choose what you believe in and I think what he means by that is you can't choose what evidence convinces you it either convinces you or it doesn't and.

19:40.50
Jeremy
Sure.

19:42.00
forestandtrees
And yeah, so that's an end that's kind of that's kind of a challenging thought for me I'm not sure if I agree with it or not and I feel like this quote is saying somewhat the opposite of that by saying it's It's a matter of perception of you can sort of choose whether to be enchanted or not um, anyway, so I want to tell a little bit of a personal story. We've talked about. Religious experience in the past and some something that I've like what when I was a Christian I always felt like I could experience God Um, when I was alone in the woods much more so or in the wilderness out in nature much more so than at a worship service. So This was a couple years ago I was still on staff at a church and we were on this staff retreat and I was going through this crisis of faith like really questioning all these things I don't even know if I believe in God or not and here I am at this. Staff retreat where we're like singing worship music and doing breakout sessions and stuff and I'm thinking what am I even doing here so we have ah like an afternoon of free time and I decide to go for a walk and hike up a mountain and try to meet God out in the wilderness again which is something I've done. Ah, bunch of times in the past right? So I get to the top of this mountain and I'm kind of standing on the precipice and the wind is blowing and I'm saying Okay God are you there I want to hear from you right? And so as soon as I say that the wind starts blowing harder like.

21:13.33
forestandtrees
It was already windy This is important to understand it was already windy but I got more wind. Okay, so yeah, yeah, I feel like that's the most important part of the story anyway. Okay, so it's so it's already wind I Ask my question and God sends the wind right? or does he.

21:18.75
Jeremy
I like I like you stressing that detail of the story.

21:31.98
forestandtrees
So in my mind I'm thinking oh okay I can accept this I could choose to make this my story right now I could say I called out to god he sent the wind to remind me of his power and his presence and. We're good. We can say okay that was it that was the sign that I was asking for or I can choose to not accept this and be like no, that's not specific enough I need something a little bit more definitive I need to hear a voice or or some sign that is less vague than just. A gust of wind. So anyway, I I was just I was thinking about this story in relation to that quote of of I sort of had this moment of reflection where it's like I can choose to either be enchanted and believe the miraculous is possible and god is real or I can be. Cynical and disenchanted and be like oh it's just the wind. Um, and it reminded me also of just 2 other stories from some other people who were atheist and became Christian because they had some kind of profound experience. Francis Collins head of human genome project. He has this story of conversion where. He was going for a hike in the wilderness and he came upon this frozen waterfall and he experienced god he fell to his knees right? then and there became a christian and also if you listen to the litter just podcast science Mike Mcgar you has a very similar story where he was.

23:02.15
forestandtrees
And raised evangelical yeah sort of lost his faith because of intellectual reasons and then he had this kind of coming to Jesus moment where he was walking on the beach and he felt the presence of god and the waves crashed up and. As he puts it. It was like god was washing his feet right there on the beach and that was his kind of come back to Jesus moment. So all that to say I don't know I feel like I was really close to having that mountaintop um moment of enchantment.

23:33.20
forestandtrees
And I don't know was it was that my brain my intellect getting in the way and I should have just been more open to ah the enchantment of the world. Yeah that that's what I think about that quote.


00:00.67
forestandtrees
Okay, so that was my story of going to the top of a mountain and hoping to hear from god and once again I'm not sure I had a moment of decision of was that really god in the wind or was that just the wind. And it reminded me a little bit of 2 other stories of people who had these kind of profound experiences of of god revealing himself in nature francis collins head of the human genome project. He has this profound experience where he was. Hiking on a mountain and he turned a corner and saw this beautiful frozen waterfall and the story is he tells it he was just overcome by the beauty and he realized that god was revealing himself ah through this spectacular scene and. Francis just fell to his knees and accepted Jesus right? then and there and then if you're familiar with Science Mike Mike Mccarg from the Liturgist Podcast he has a somewhat similar story. He was kind of born and raised conservative evangelical and fell out of faith kind of lost his faith for intellectual reasons. And later in life. He was walking on the beach and he says that he felt the presence of god and the water on the shore washed up ah covered his feet and as he interpreted that as god reaching out and washing his feet and him meeting god out there on the beach.

01:34.87
forestandtrees
So all that to say I I feel like my story with god showing up in the wind like that could have been that same type of story. Maybe it was my own intellect getting in the way and I should have been more open to enchantment in the world and ah. So yeah I resonate with that quote for that reason of it is a matter of perception. You can choose whether to see it one way or another and yeah once again, I'm I'm not sure what was I too cynical. There. You tell me Jeremy should I have just accepted the wind and been like the wind is enough god is the wind. Or or was I right to ask for more What do you think.

02:17.35
Jeremy
You know as you were telling your story I was literally thinking about science Mike because he wrote a book called finding god in the waves where he talks about that story that you read you referenced and I was like oh my gosh you had a science Mike Story like literallyter is I do talk like I've read this book like yeah I totally know you're talking about.

02:22.61
forestandtrees
Yeah, exactly.

02:33.49
forestandtrees
Yeah.

02:36.59
Jeremy
And he and he talks about like you know was it god or was it wishful thinking and he know he very much is a skeptic at heart and you know he he wrestles with that here's what I love I don't know the answer to to your question Jeff I don't know if it really was god I love that there are moments like this and I think we all have them.

02:43.72
forestandtrees
Um.

02:55.87
Jeremy
Where there there is a choice you have to make right in the moment this could be God This could be something supernatural. This could be this could be real life magic right? happening to or it could be wishful thinking or it could be a coincidence or it could be you know, just some.

03:03.50
forestandtrees
M.

03:14.57
Jeremy
Um, random act that is unique in and of itself and I kind of love that god doesn't necessarily make it so obvious you know there there are times where you know I think like moses and the burning Bush that's a pretty obvious hey this Bush is not burning up I don't think this is a natural occurrence. But there's there's so many that you know I have too where it's just like you have these moments It's like what's that that god and here's what I think you know Beck in his book is suggesting is that what if we looked for him what if we tried to tune our awareness and and you know. We're just constantly on the lookout for things would we see more of god and you know Beck's argument is yeah we would. We would be more aware of the presence of god and I would tend to agree I think if we were constantly dialed into this constantly aware constantly looking for god. I think you'd have a lot more of those stories of like then this happened one day and then you know I'm at this and this and I don't know I like to think that god shows up in a lot of really beautiful, inconspicuous ways all the time and I like to think that if we were dialed into that we would see even more of it. But maybe. Maybe again Jeff maybe that's just me and wishful thinking I don't know.

04:27.41
forestandtrees
Yeah I Certainly agree with the sentiment of right because I I don't like the idea of me being this hardened cynic right of like just saying like nothing matters. It's all you know we're all dust even though I mean.

04:42.73
Jeremy
Those are not words I would use to describe you.

04:46.83
forestandtrees
I Want to believe in magic right? Even though I mean I guess the bible says we're made of dust Also um so that's right right? It is magic. It is um and that's that's another thing I would say which we we talked about this in a previous episode of.

04:51.83
Jeremy
That that was God Breathe dust that's magic.

05:06.20
forestandtrees
Right? Whether whether creation is beautiful because it's God's beautiful creation or whether just the natural world is beautiful and you can still have these profound moments um of beauty without religion I would say that yeah you can experience and appreciate. The beauty of the world. You know whether you believe in God or not and just one more point is of course you have to take into consideration. The fact that people of other faiths muslims hindus buddhists also have spiritual experiences where they feel.

05:29.91
Jeremy
Right.

05:43.84
forestandtrees
Ah, profound presence of God of their version of God and ah I wonder if if you have thoughts on that.

05:50.37
Jeremy
Yeah, it reminds me of the quote and I don't I can't remember who said it but ah the quote is in Essence is you know, not not all roads lead to God but God can be found walking on all roads and I've always loved that sentiment like.

06:04.78
forestandtrees
Um.

06:07.91
Jeremy
You know I think there is truth and I think there are you? You know Whatever how you want to describe it more true versions of god and less true versions of god but I also think in every single faith tradition god shows up and god is there and god is reaching out to people and so yeah I think I have no problem of someone of a different you know faith. Ah, experiencing god I mean one of the most profound to this day profound personal moments for me with Jesus I was meditating with buddhists. Ah and it was like they they were not trying to connect with Jesus I was right I was.

06:35.54
forestandtrees
Oh cool.

06:43.78
forestandtrees
Um.

06:44.77
Jeremy
Was hijacking their their ah buddhist meditation tradition in order to you know experience Jesus for myself and I mean I think about that regularly like it was such a profound experience for me and so yeah I love and and not to say that they all were having the same moment I'm having but just that. I think sometimes christians want to have this like no we own we own god and god is you know god is ours and I just think that you know god's god's far bigger than that and ah and yeah I do think there are you know more accurate ways of understanding god in particular ways that look like Jesus that's why I believe as we've talked about That's what god looks like but I think god being Jesus will constantly meet us where we are and that is that's who Jesus is and I think it's beautiful.

07:32.56
forestandtrees
Yeah, the the line between prayer and meditation or like specifically Christian prayer and non-christian but religious meditation is is a very interesting one um and kind of speaks to what we're talking about with with spiritual experiences.

07:49.22
Jeremy
Right.

07:50.30
forestandtrees
But yeah, that's cool, um all right? Well so let's get out of the wilderness and kind of the woo woo All is God Territory Let's talk about this specific old testament finger of God writing down the law type of stuff. Yeah.

08:06.82
Jeremy
Obsolete Obsolete ah just practicing.

08:08.21
forestandtrees
Yeah, the law. That's that's obsolete exactly? Yes, okay, so verse 5 as is they serve in a system of worship that is only a copy a shadow of the real one in heaven for when Moses was getting ready to build the tabernacle god gave him this warning. Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you. Here on the mountain. Okay, so this verse this is a verse in the new testament that of course is recounting an old testament story that so the story goes god gave moses specific tabernacle instructions and of course was instructions are in the bible still of like how many cuubits long it is and such. Oh lost you again. Dang it.

00:00.20
forestandtrees
All right? Well enough about the whole woo woo experience of god in nature god is everything. Let's get back to the more specific god of the old testament. 1 who has incredibly specific instructions that he gave that even if those instructions are obsolete now they are they are according to the story written literally with the finger of god so I'm going to read verse five here.

00:18.00
Jeremy
Obsolete Jeff obsolete.

00:32.59
forestandtrees
Serve in a system of worship that is only a copy a shadow of the real one in heaven for when Moses was getting ready to build the tabernacle god gave him this warning. Be sure you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain all right? So this speaks to the old testament story of. God meeting with moses on the top of the mountain and giving him these specific instructions here's talking about the tabernacle where god specifically tells Moses here's how you build the tabernacle. It's this many cuubits long right? These instructions are in the bible if you want to build your own and also according.

01:09.17
Jeremy
Your bored.

01:12.11
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, break out the legos I don't know and according to the story in exodus 1831 it says that the 10 commandments are written with the finger of god. Okay, so that this is an interesting thing because we always talk about. Like the law. What's to deal with all these weird laws in the old testament that seem to not be relevant at all to our current day and most people would say like yeah, that's that's like a manmade construct of you know these are rules that were specific for their time and place. Um, but most people consider the 10 commandments to be more special because. Ah, again, they were written literally by the hand of god they were carved into stone. That's where we get this cliche idea of saying well it's not written in stone but the 10 commandments were um, even though they they might be obsolete now. But anyway I thought this would be a good way. Jeremy for me to try to get you to commit a little bit more. You to some sense of biblical literal or literalism were the 10 commandments literally inscribed by the finger of god because if not, it seems like the bible's not just exaggerating here. It's it's. Telling ah an untruth.

02:28.92
Jeremy
So how you know how much of the bible and in particular the old testament is literally true is a great question I don't know the answer. And I don't claim to be able to to navigate that flawlessly of this is this isn't I think what we have to acknowledge as a foundation is that it does not have to be literally true to be true meaning ah a Jesus pair belt. Doesn't have to be literally true people who actually lived in order for the story to be true and what Jesus is trying to do with it I think a lot of that happens with the old testament where god shows up god uses it and a lot of it is literally true I've said before this is like based on true events. So it's tricky some of them literally happen. Some of them aren't literal. Some of them are more figurative or more stories. So here's where I would land on the moses story the 10 commandments. Ah basically my my criteria of what do I take literally is if I take it literally does it look like Jesus. And if it have if I have no issue there then I'm comfortable to say something literally happened if I were to take it literally and it contradicts what I see in Jesus then I'm not comfortable applying that literally and again you can say that's super subjective. We all are doing something with the stories of the old testament. That's that's as clear as I know how to say how I read it to go.

03:50.47
Jeremy
Does it literally look like Jesus if yes, so I feel comfortable saying the 10 commandments literally happened literally were written by a finger of god sure I have no problem with that I would be totally comfortable to believe that and and I'm fine with that and if you said well they they weren't actually written by the hand of god okay i'm. Come to roll with that too. You know I'm I'm not going to lose sleep over that ah in that same genre I would say I'm less comfortable saying that the conquest narrative of the holy lands literally happened as they described it I don't think that looks like Jesus I don't think they literally carrieded it out the way and even historically there's a lot of.

04:28.25
Jeremy
Pushback against that. There's not the evidence to back up a lot of what we read, you know in Joshua stuff like that. So. that's how I that's how I read it. Some of it is literally happened the way as described others of it I go it doesn't look like Jesus so something else had to be going on. But yeah sure god god can can have some handwriting and if so. This would be like the only thing like literally that god wrote because Jesus never wrote anything other than in the dirt which got blown away or stepped on or whatever and so it's interesting to have something literally written by god even though a lot of inerrant christians would say you know all the bibles are written by the hand of god.

04:55.00
forestandtrees
Um.

05:06.42
Jeremy
Um, that's not the view I would hold to but but you know here you have an example of God literally writing something with God's finger.

05:14.86
forestandtrees
Yeah, that. That's interesting that opens up, you know, just so much discussion about the idea of canonization and your your view of how um how inerrant or how accurately the bible captures like the heart and mind of god which I know we've talked about like. Throughout the show and I'm sure we'll continue to talk about ah well just curious. So I get that the the 10 commandments are are pretty safe like they're not They're not nearly as abhorrent as a lot of the other laws throughout like leviticus and stuff like that. Um I don't know like I guess the. The main complaint I have that with the tinkka mements is the thing about coveting your neighbor's wife this is a a common critique of like why? Why is um, a wife considered like property with with ox and um land and home and stuff like that. Do it. Are there any parts of the the 10 commandments specifically that bother you.

06:16.56
Jeremy
Ah, um, it's interesting question.

06:19.59
forestandtrees
I think also like youre I think the 10 commands specifically say like you're to be put to death for not following the sabbath so that's another one that I'm glad that's odd's obsolete. Okay, yeah.

06:29.29
Jeremy
That I don't think I don't think the punishment is in the 10 commandments I think it's just the acknowledgement of it. Um I mean I don't know I'd have to go I'd have to reread them with that filter in mind I'm not one who has the 10 commandments hanging. You know in my house or in our school or ah, that's you know those are 10 those are 10 of 613 laws of the old covenant that as hebrews eight thirteen argued are obsolete now so we don't live under them. Um, you know I think there's a lot in the old covenant that I would say.

06:48.52
forestandtrees
Right.

06:59.70
forestandtrees
Um.

07:06.00
Jeremy
Yeah, it doesn't look anything like Jesus and the way it talks about women being you know one of those and so I think that's god helping people move along meeting them where they are not letting them stop there but like hey we're gonna keep going. Um, yeah.

07:17.62
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I get right? I guess is just like because I've heard this this some argument as well. What you're saying basically of like yeah the 10 commandments are just a part of the law. They're just the first part because it starts with that and then you just continues for for chapters and books on of more rules of the law. But it does seem like there. There has to be something special about them right? It's not just they're not just special because they're famous in pop culture like they're special because god wrote them himself and they're carved in stone. But yeah I mean maybe we could do ah I don't a bonus episode on on the 10 commandments if we want to.

07:52.45
Jeremy
On the take moments. Well I do you know when I'm explaining the covenant I will say to people. Yeah, this includes a 10 commandments like you're not bound by those anymore and that's a hard idea for a lot of christians even when I've you know when I've preached that like wait. What do you mean? the 10 commandments are 10 commandments you know and I think even.

07:55.22
forestandtrees
Do a deeper dive.

08:00.68
forestandtrees
Right? right.

08:11.66
Jeremy
Even ah, a Christian who would say they're fully following Jesus probably is trying to live also by the 10 commandments not realizing that is 10 of 613 of an old covenant that is obsolete and no longer needed if you follow Jesus and so yeah I think it's there is there's something to be. To be discussed there as to what is a christian response the 10 commandments. How do we understand them in light of what we know about Jesus.

08:36.78
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I think I think I would probably agree with that of maybe maybe like culturally we've made more a bigger deal of them than than they are biblically. Um but anyway, okay, ah well this this is a good transition into verse 7 we're talking about. Old v new covenant and verse 7 says something similar to what verse 13 says when it says if the first covenant had been faultless. There would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it so this is speaking your language Jeremy that ah old covenant is obsolete um.

09:06.64
Jeremy
Yeah, let's go.

09:13.40
forestandtrees
This question seems almost too obvious to ask. But I'm going to ask it Anyway, if God knows all things Why would he waste his time and humanities' time for that matter letting humanity live under this old covenant. Why not just start with the good one.

09:30.16
Jeremy
No, it's a good question but I I think a lot of people probably wonder like what could we skip the old testament you know can we like have fast forwarded to Jesus like just send Jesus right away you know, let's get this over with I think you have to suggest that the the answer is they weren't ready for it I mean they they just.

09:41.80
forestandtrees
Yeah.

09:49.93
Jeremy
Culturally, we're not in a place where that would have made sense and so god has to meet them where they are and you know progress along with them. That's say they have progressive revelation. We've talked a lot about throughout the series got continually revealing more and more about who god is and and you know then they keep evolving as. A cultural awareness of god of what does it mean to follow this god we we know more and more and so I think what we see is that god historically throughout people who have followed him god meets us where we are and often has to stoop down to our level in order to do that and the fact that god does this teaches us about god's character. So it's not wasted. It's not like well man just skip overall that what was the point. The fact that god did it the way god did it is a reflection of Jesus. That's what Jesus does for us and so I think it's incredibly valuable to see how far god was willing to go in order to meet the people where they were. Ultimately, bringing them to the realization of what god really looks like which is Jesus but yeah I think the answer is they they just weren't they weren't ready for it. They would not have have embraced it. It would have been too much for them because even what god brought them was usually too much for them and you know that was the old covenant and that was god. Giving them baby steps on on the way to something better.

11:10.46
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I guess then you could say like is that a problem with the design or or the designer right? If if sinful humanity is not ready for twenty first century ethics I don't know does that make sense. Of why are humans made in this way that they they need these baby steps.

11:33.30
Jeremy
Well, you know then why didn't it you know guide upon creation. Give us all the knowledge we have today I mean because that's part of life is learning and growing and discovering and that's part of the beauty you know god doesn't just come out and say all right here's all the.

11:43.19
forestandtrees
Um.

11:52.20
Jeremy
20 things you need to know about me do these 20 things and then you're good god tells stories and god shows up in mysterious ways and god has you know a breeze blow on you on the top of a hill and you still are thinking about it I mean this is like to me this is how god works and it's it is. It's magic. It's mysterious. It's supernatural. It's beautiful.

12:05.57
forestandtrees
Um.

12:11.62
Jeremy
And so I I don't have any issue that like god you should've came out of the gate with Jesus? Ah I think god's like yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna create creation that is also has the potential to create other things and to grow and to develop and it's like saying you know when I had our first child I didn't expect. Our baby to act like an adult and I didn't hold it against him that you know he wasn't ready to be an adult like use a baby and this is beautiful and this is part of the human experiences watching him grow and I think god god meets us there and god likes that and god engages with us across you know across all the generations and I think that. Again says a lot more about god than it does us but I don't see it as a necessary flaw I can understand your your argument here as to well it seems a little weird but I think it's part of it goes back to like why is the universe so big. It's pointless like it doesn't need to be that big like you could have made it a lot smaller. But.

12:57.87
forestandtrees
Um.

13:04.60
forestandtrees
Yeah.

13:08.14
Jeremy
I think God just does things that are cool and are lavish and go beyond what are needed but that's part of the beauty of god.

13:14.65
forestandtrees
Right? And like yeah like I'm talking about like why? Why is the human story such a long one. Why does it take humanity so long to get to this new Covenant Era But of course yeah within the span of the universe The the human species has been around for a very short time.

13:32.16
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

13:34.62
forestandtrees
And yeah, again, like it I think this is kind of a biblical principle that is like not not one that I was taught in church growing up of the idea of like god looks at humanity as as a whole it seems like because these are people in the old testament who are living and dying before. They ever get to see Jesus right? And you're talking about it like it's the steady progression but from their perspective. It's it's their whole life their whole life and and they see nothing. Um, yeah, interesting thing to think about keeps you keeps you humble I suppose. Ah.

13:59.60
Jeremy
Right. Yeah, yeah, totally.

14:10.71
forestandtrees
All right? Well so let's let's finish off with verse 8 which is quoting Jeremiah 31 through 34 I thought this was a very interesting passage I read it a couple times to try to understand what I was saying so let me just read it and. Run it by you and maybe you can help me make sense of it. But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel after those days says the Lord I will put my instructions deep within them and I will write them on their hearts I will be their god they will be my people. And they will not need to teach their neighbors nor will they need to teach their relatives saying you should know the lord for everything from the least to the greatest will know me already says the Lord and I will forgive their wickedness and I will never again remember their sins all right? so. This to me almost seems like a pretty solid argument for universalism. It seems like this verse. Ah, which again is way back in Jeremiah which is prophesying about the new covenant is saying that everyone knows god by default.

15:07.65
Jeremy
Yeah, it does.

15:23.98
forestandtrees
Ah, again, correct me if I'm wrong here I feel like what it's saying is just you're born already knowing God like you know God whether you know that you know him or not like people people always talk about general revelation with a verse in romance where it says God has revealed himself so man is without excuse. Ah.

15:40.63
Jeremy
And.

15:42.99
forestandtrees
Feel like this verse is much more clear. This verse is saying like god is already within you. Um, and I think it says you already know him. So ah yeah, what do you make of this passage. Jeremy are huge if true are all people already christians. By default.

16:00.42
Jeremy
Um, huge if true indeed I love this passage as as you probably suspected and I think what we're getting at here is what does it mean to be made in the image of god and a god that indwells inside of us and is present in creation and. You know and it is fully has fully been revealed in the person of Jesus and now we we can see exactly what god is like and so I totally agree this this passage and again coming from the old testament is is dicey but this passage definitely lends itself to a very loving grace filled almost all are welcome. Type image of god and so I love this idea I love the idea of god meeting people there. Um I do think even you know I remember growing up and like 1 of the growing up in the church and what are like my conundrums of my faith when I was little was. You know what about someone who's never literally heard the name of Jesus you know can they be saved and you know basically that was like my luminant understanding but I think a lot of people have that tension of well what about them and I think well they they too are made in the image of god and they probably have some acknowledgement of who god is this is actually fascinating if you.

17:00.51
forestandtrees
Right? right.

17:16.77
Jeremy
Like look at world religions and look at like what they have in common. There's a lot of commonalities. You know most religions of the world would say murder is bad like where does that come from you know I mean because you could argue like yeah if it's survival of the fittest I should have every right to kill someone who is a threat to me. But. There's something inside of us that people of many religions would say no, that's not right? like where did that come from. Where do we get that you know I mean I would suggest that's the image of god that is there's something inside of us that knows like that doesn't feel right and again not to say no one has ever murdered someone like we obviously know that they have but. Why do we collectively see that as something that's wrong like where does that come from why why do multiple religions agree with that. So to me I think that's all kind of what we see in this passage and it's interesting to view this in light of you know, skepticism in light of well hey there is no god. What what do we make ah of this reality and so I'm again I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap my end up by going back to Richard Beck a couple of great passages in the book and again I'm I'm plugging this hard I think this is a great book but he ease says this we still believe in the soul even in this skeptical age and we be horrified. If anyone claimed otherwise more and more people might doubt the existence of god but god still haunts us. We crave the magic we resist reducing our lives to biology. We are convinced that we are more than the sum total of our organs bones and tissues.

18:53.36
Jeremy
And I think this quote is getting at the same idea that that even you know even if you want to say there is no God There's something inside of us that that wants to also believe we're more than just the biological components of who we are that there's something deeper there and I think that deeper desire. However, it manifests in a person's life. Is an awareness of God or an acknowledgement of God and and you know people use different. You know terms a higher power or you know sometimes we refer to the universe The force there. Yeah or the universe you know like we we we often use kind of different language. But I think it's the idea of there's got to be more.

19:19.69
forestandtrees
The force.

19:30.83
Jeremy
And I think that is what people are are acknowledging I think that's what we're finding this passage here and then there's 1 more phrase that that I read and I was like o I personally was very convicted by it I suspect you might be convicted by it as well because you and I I think have this in common. Um. But back says in the book if you're struggling with disenchantment odds are you're thinking rather than paying attention I was like al.

20:00.15
forestandtrees
Yeah, that seems like a very a very buddhist um thing to say um.

20:04.70
Jeremy
Yeah, but I I I liked that you know that ah challenge of I can I can be in my head quite a bit thinking thinking thinking thinking and stop paying attention to is God actually showing up around me so I actually really liked that reprimand in the book of like. I am struggling with the disenchantment often you know and it's probably because I'm too in my head and I'm not aware I'm not paying attention to what God's doing around me so I don't know if you resonate with that at all, but that hit me.

20:35.40
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely I mean it's so much of what you're saying reminds me so much of what Sam Harris has to say I don't know if you've read or let to a lot of his stuff but because he's a he's a big time atheist but also big proponent of meditation and so he talks a lot about um. You can still have these spiritual experiences of of being overcome with emotion or or thinking feeling something outside of yourself. Um, moments of rapture I think is a word that he uses ah with without believing in a specific god and yeah, i've. I've dabbled in meditation for sure I think I'm really bad at it. But I think that speaks to like me needing to get better at that like as I understand it the point of meditation is to not not to stop thinking but to not be held captive by your thoughts.

21:29.52
Jeremy
Right.

21:31.12
forestandtrees
Not to be lost in thought. Um, again, yeah it. It seems like a really cool ideal and something I'd like to explore more and and get better at practicing I don't know you mentioned meditation earlier in the episode is that something you practice regularly.

21:48.87
Jeremy
Not a ton and ah eda for me. It's I've got I've got 5 kids at home and my house is loud. You know and it's always loud and and you know we're in a season where there's lots of.

21:54.90
forestandtrees
Ah.

22:00.43
Jeremy
Lots of coming and going and craziness and so I I think for me I have to you know make an intentional time for it and like you I don't think I say I'm great at this and I think you know when I read stuff like this that Beck's talking about I'm like man I need to do way more of that than I do and I can think back to these stories that are so moving to me. But I you know I don't I don't do them nearly as much as I should I suspect most of us are like that where you know we've had some awareness of like that was really good. But then we we just get busy and we don't make time for it and so I think it's just a reminder of if you're feeling that disenchantment. You may be stuck in your head. It may be time to. To pay attention more and to to do something intentionally to try to redirect your awareness to what god's doing right.

22:44.33
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, well I I love that worldview you know it. It feels very ah Richard Rohr Woo woo you know the spiritual but not religious stuff that that my parents and my aunts and uncles always warned me about so.

22:51.00
Jeremy
With how.

23:01.39
forestandtrees
Better turn back now Jeremy because we're on the dark side. Oh yeah, yeah, all right? Well ah yeah, this this was a fruitful conversation I think ah yeah, we all had a lot of fun.

23:03.40
Jeremy
Ah, ah, they war they warned you about me huh there we go.

23:19.28
forestandtrees
Oh my God and wrong button This is episode is the worst. Oh my gosh. Okay, anything else you want to say we need. We need more peace and and zen in our lives. Okay.

23:28.70
Jeremy
Ah, ah, that is hilarious. The Epi episode from Hell that's great.

23:39.15
forestandtrees
Well hopefully anyone listening to this episode has felt this profound sense of peace and awareness and inner zen or connection with god or the universe or whatever and we appreciate you listening. Let us know what you think have we gone. Way too far into the woo at this point and ah stay tuned for chapter nine next week