Hebrews 7 - Melchizedek will Make things Right

We’re finally on the Melchizedek chapter! Jeremy asks Jef why we crave things that are not good for us. 

Topics
Laziness - Why do we crave things that are bad for us?
Tithing - Why doesn't God just provide?
Tribalism - Why does God choose favorites?
New Testament Clarification - Why not be more clear?
Blood Sacrifice - Why tho?

McDonalds of the Soul

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Transcript

01:01.44
Jeremy
Hey everybody welcome to hebrews chapter seven I am Jeremy and has always joined by my friend. Jeff.

01:10.37
forestandtrees
Um, this will begin to make things right.

01:16.14
Jeremy
What will.

01:20.23
forestandtrees
You know Reverend Mel King Kissy the um, the Prophet Priest King Bounty Hunter Melizededek himself oh yeah man listen if you're bingeing this podcast.

01:25.15
Jeremy
Well Kissen neck is gonna make all things right.

01:34.39
forestandtrees
And you're looking for a time to go to the bathroom. This is the melized a dick chap milk kiss a dickck chapter. So go ahead. Yeah I mean milk is it come on. No one cares about melized Aek Jeremy clearly

01:40.74
Jeremy
Um, this is the go to the bathroom podcast is that what I just heard.

01:49.60
Jeremy
Well well we got into milk is it like a little bit last week we've ah we've acknowledged the weirdness and we're gonna try not to get lost on the weeds of that we're gonna keep the forest in sight. Do you see what they did there. You see I did there? Yeah and thank you.

01:59.28
forestandtrees
Wow Yeah, well said? Yeah yeah, that was beautiful.

02:05.34
Jeremy
All right? Well, we're on chapter 7 and today we're going to explore tithing back to the to 1 of our faves whether or not god chooses favorites why the new testament writers aren't more clear in what they're saying and why god seems to need blood. These are these are where Jeff's gonna take us now I'd like to open today and share with with all of us a a quote that I read this week and I just loved this quote and I thought I gotta either work this into a blog post or a social media post.

02:25.32
forestandtrees
Um, good topics. Yeah.

02:44.73
Jeremy
Or a podcast and so I decided to to save it for the podcast. So if you hate this. This was not Jeff's idea if you love this quote Jeff had nothing to do with this so there you go this comes from a guy named Carlos Rodriguez and he's referencing an article. That a guy named Jammar Tisby had written and he's going to quote a phrase from Jammar Tisbee and then kind of give it in context and the phrase made me think of Jeff and you're wondering how how's Jeremy tying this in this is not hebrew 7 per se so I'm stretching the rules a little bit here Jeff taking a little bit of.

03:20.71
forestandtrees
Kind of a bonus question.

03:22.36
Jeremy
Artistic liberties if you will bot. Yes, this is bonus. Ah, but here's this quote that I think is great here's what Carlos Schrorige says someone who is not Christian described their general experience with white evangelicals as quote people. Who don't have any questions and I immediately knew what they meant and I'm going to be thinking about that statement for a long time now that that quote comes from a Jamar tisby article. But this idea of people who don't have any questions. I read that and I was like oof that is so true in my experience as well. I immediately also know what they're talking about that oftentimes it is the christians and yes white evangelicals I guess would be even more guilty of this. That are the people that don't have any questions because we have it all figured out and we have all the right answers and we're certain and anyone else who doesn't acknowledge our answer or still has a question clearly hasn't figured it out yet. Yeah and so here's what I want to say Jeff I want to applaud you for not being. A white evangelical you have questions.

04:42.67
forestandtrees
Wow! Yeah, thank you Jeremy I appreciate that? Ah, yeah, for for those listening who don't see the video I certainly am white and ah my background was evangelical i.

04:43.76
Jeremy
I Thought that was like a badge of honor for you to be to be not a white evangelical.

05:00.61
forestandtrees
I mean we like last week we talked about the my own tradition the way I was raised I was certainly raised evangelical so there's there's a lot of evangelicalism I would say that still runs through my bones even though I'm not identifying as a christian these days.

05:16.31
Jeremy
You just can't quit it.

05:19.91
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, it's you know it was my formative years right? There's yeah I don't know. But yeah yes I I appreciate that. Thank you for complimenting me by saying I'm a person who asks questions and not lumping me in with the other white evangelicals. I Also know what you mean because that's that was part of my research for starting this podcast was always wanting to get into these conversations with people and yeah, being so somewhat puzzled by how non curious people can be at times I would I'd bring that bring up some topic and I'd be like Wow this.

05:50.91
Jeremy
Right? right.

05:57.77
forestandtrees
This is cute huge if true right? The the implications are massive and they would just be not that interested or maybe they would humor me for a little bit and and talk about it. But yeah, kind of quickly kind of change the subject or be like well we're never going to figure it out. So let's just put this topic to bed put it to the side. And sometimes I feel unsatisfied with that I feel like no I need to ask more questions so that yeah thank you for for being willing to put up with my questions. Jeremy.

06:27.60
Jeremy
Well and now I'd actually say Jeff I think we've been a little misleading in our podcast format because one could be you know.

06:35.66
forestandtrees
Um.

06:39.25
Jeremy
Could could be excused for having the perception that you're the only one with questions and I have all the answers because that's kind of the format. We do so I want to just correct that that is not the situation. 1 of the reasons why Jeff and I get along so well is we both have a lot of the same questions. We just answer the questions slightly differently I think but we both resonate with these questions and with these good questions and you know when I read that quote this week I was like man I don't want to be that person you know as as a I guess I'm a white evangelical I'm definitely white. But.

07:13.39
forestandtrees
The.

07:15.85
Jeremy
I'm hesitant on the evangelical part but I have lots of questions and so Jeff I'm gonna I'm gonna throw a bonus question at you just to prove that you're not the only one with questions and um, my question has nothing to do with Hebrew 7 so this is all bonus people. This is this is premium. Content. We're just get. We're throwing it at you. But here's a very real question that I have been thinking about a lot lately and I don't have a good answer for this and I'm kind of like just processing this question a lot and so I thought I'm gonna throw it out to you I want to see if you have any life altering perspective on it.

07:36.23
forestandtrees
Yeah.

07:54.36
Jeremy
So no pressure. But I'm excited to hear where you go with this. So here's my question that I've this is again just something I have been thinking of um, here's my question. Why do we crave things that are not good for us. Okay, like I don't know if you've noticed this but I have a craving for things that I know. Like I shouldn't follow that craving. That's not going to be good and you can think about this like in a very easy sense fast food or junk food. Why does my body crave food that ultimately is not going to be the most productive for my health. Um, it's not even gonna give me the most energy or make me feel the best afterward. Why do I crave these things like what is it about my body like why is that. But then as I'm sure we've all noticed it doesn't just happen with food. There are things like actions that I would want to choose that I know like I shouldn't do that that wouldn't be good. But I still crave it. There's something in me that like wants to go and do that and I guess my question this is like a slight frustration I'm working through with god right now of like well then why did you make me in such a way that I so badly crave it. It doesn't even feel like it's neutral like I could choose this for that. It's like the the. Gal is tipped toward the things that I shouldn't do and obviously I'm working through the morality of that I'm curious Jeff from your point of view. What What's your take on that. Why do we crave things that are not good for us.

09:20.28
forestandtrees
Good question Jeremy I've got good news for you. You're in good company because even the Apostle Paul in romans had something similar to say when he said I don't really understand myself for I want to do what is right? but I don't do it instead.

09:25.59
Jeremy
Yes.

09:38.35
forestandtrees
I Do what I hate.

09:41.20
Jeremy
I'm so confused What who's who's who right now this is great.

09:42.90
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, the the bible has has some wisdom for today Jeremy if you would just open the book and read it.

09:49.53
Jeremy
I want to just point out Jeff just quoted the Apostle Paul as his answer to my question. Okay, okay, let's go.

09:54.88
forestandtrees
Yeah, well I have some more I have some more answers for you. So in a word laziness right? I think this I think this is kind of a natural human thing we're we're naturally lazy and as as I was thinking about your question I was thinking. There's probably. Somewhat of an evolutionary reason for us being lazy because we want to conserve energy right? Our our purpose in life is to ah reproduce and find food and shelter. So if you if you live a comfortable middle class lifestyle and those needs are taking care of you. It's. I think it's a natural inclination to just relax and take it easy and you know consume junk food or whatever because it's high calories. It. It would made me. It made me think of when I was um, biking down the west coast and I was. In one sense I was in the best shape of my life because I was riding my bike like 8 hours a day but also I like needed to eat a lot more because I needed the energy and sometimes the only places for food available were gas stations. So sometimes I was eating m and m's for lunch and dinner. And it I don't know it was. It was the weird thing of like obviously this is not healthy and this is this is going to have like maybe long term negative consequences but I need that instant gratification right? I need that quick energy boost. Um it.

11:21.55
Jeremy
So you're telling me hold on you're telling me rather than get like a protein bar at a gas station. You went for the M and M bag.

11:30.95
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, often I did I don't know it seems it seemed convenient also because of the the candy coated shells right? where um.

11:35.83
Jeremy
Um, I mean you got to go get back on a bike for hours and you you went with eminems. Oh okay, okay I see.

11:41.70
forestandtrees
Because I could I could snack as I was riding you see? Yeah yeah versus with the protein bar. You kind of need 2 hands to unravel it and yeah, well you know, not that long. That's a good point.

11:51.12
Jeremy
How long does it take you to eat a protein bar. Um, we digress.

12:00.53
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, ah do do you know the comedian Jim Gaffigan um yeah he's he's got this whole bit about Mcdonald's which is really really funny talking about how like everyone eats Mcdonald's everyone claims. They don't but everyone does and he says even if you actually don't eat. Mcdonald's.

12:03.66
Jeremy
I I do know Jim Gaffkin

12:19.89
forestandtrees
You have some other vice. You know whether it's celebrity gossip or trashy tv or social media or something some kind of addictive like low grade junk food type behavior that he calls mcdonald's of the soul. Momentary pleasure followed by incredible guilt eventually leading to cancer and it just 1 more observation. It made me think about what kinds of things I listen to throughout the day because like I'm I'm a graphic designer so I'm always like listening to stuff while I work and.

12:39.29
Jeremy
Wow.

12:55.80
forestandtrees
In theory I could be listening to music which would be just kind of positive neutral or I could listen to audiobooks which would make me smarter but more often than not I listen to podcasts or just have Youtube videos on in the background of people just talking about nothing as as just kind of ambient. Background noise and I think it I think for me, the reason I do that is because it's digestible content right? If it's an audio book. It. It takes work to actually pay attention and understand what the author is trying to say versus just you know, just ah.

13:22.46
Jeremy
For.

13:32.17
forestandtrees
Filler type content. It's it's like the junk food of of literature I suppose and it's um yeah I know that it's bad for me and it's making me less smart as a person but what can I say I'm I'm a lazy ah middle class.

13:50.54
Jeremy
But you have questions so you're okay I actually fun fact I don't eat Mcdonald's.

13:50.62
forestandtrees
Evangelical. Yeah yeah.

14:00.35
forestandtrees
Oh well, good good for you Jeremy what's your Mcdonald's of the soul. Ah.

14:03.33
Jeremy
But ah yeah I I was gonna say my Mcdonald's Soul is Taco Bell I could live off of Taco Bell but Mcdonald's I literally I can't I can't do it it. It doesn't it doesn't work for me I've never enjoyed it even as a little kid I didn't like Mcdonald's so.

14:18.45
forestandtrees
My out.

14:20.31
Jeremy
We literally get Mcdonald's for our kids when like my wife and I are going to eat something different or we're going out for dinner or something that's when we get them because I can't do it but talk about tell you what? that's totally different all right we get into Hebrew 7 you did it was good.

14:30.21
forestandtrees
Yeah, so does yeah did I answer your question. Do you feel like you got anything insightful. Okay, sure.

14:38.42
Jeremy
Ah, the laziness angle is interesting is that really you know, just the the lazy drive emerging I like that I think that that offers kind of an interesting take on it.

14:48.49
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean there's just so many different ways to take it right? like crave stuff is bad for you could mean like literally what you're eating but it could also be your activity like lack of exercise. Obviously that's tied to laziness or just eating or um. What what kinds of content you consume like I was talking about I feel like is is tied to laziness as well.

15:11.36
Jeremy
Yeah I guess I I wouldn't normally think of myself as a lazy person but I I can see how essentially that drive in you that desire for that is kind of the the route of least resistance right? That's gonna be the easiest thing that that definitely resonates so.

15:28.14
forestandtrees
Um.

15:31.18
Jeremy
Good stuff. Jeff I like it.

15:32.98
forestandtrees
Oh thanks? Ah, yeah, we better, we better get into the text now though. Yeah, all right? So as I said this is ah the whole chapter basically is about melchizedek and kind of um, recapping the story from genesis of melchizedek meaning Abraham and and.

15:36.64
Jeremy
Let's do it. Let's get into Hebrew 7

15:49.57
forestandtrees
Talk about home milk because it it kind of mirrors Jesus and things like that anyway. So verse 5 it says now the law of moses requires that the priests who are descendants of Levi must collect a tithe from the rest of the people of Israel who are also descendants of Abraham so there. There was kind of a a whole chunk where it was kind of like getting into the whole justification of the lineage of melchizedek and why like explaining like the lineage of of Jesus and the priests with Levi because there was a part where it talked about like even though Levi wasn't born yet his seed was still in Abraham. Seem like getting really into the minutia of genealogies which if you read the bible you know genealogies is a big recurring theme there and ah oh my gosh I'm sorry I feel like i.

16:46.64
forestandtrees
I'm asking the wrong question here because this first question is about the tithe. Okay, let's let's start again here with verse 5 must collect a tithe from. Okay, yeah, starting verse 5 now the law of moses requires that the priests who descendants of Levi must collect a tithe from the rest of the people of Israel who are also descendants of Abraham. Ok so we talked about the tithe last week. Um or in previous weeks about the. Church and its relationship with money and donations and things like that and we we already established. It's not a new testament concept. It's an old testament concept but I wanted to ask another question about tithing or just taking donations in general and my question is why does god. Require people's money wouldn't it make so much sense for god to just provide for the people of Israel and old testament and the church of today miraculously like rather than sending like dollar bills from heaven just provide whatever they need if they need. Ah, smoke machine if they need volunteer labor. Whatever it is why wouldn't god just just make that happen miraculously that would be a way of of showing up and being interactive in the world and it would free. The church of this stigma that they have of always asking for donations.

18:15.99
forestandtrees
What do you think? Jeremy yeah yeah.

18:17.28
Jeremy
Miraculous smoke machine huh. Okay, first off I want to acknowledge anyone who takes this verse as an argument for tithing which I have heard many a christian do this is not. And argument for tithing and you might be going what you talking about I literally have heard christian say well this shows that tithing preceded the old covenant because this was with you know moses and melchizedek and there's just like I mean just one of those weird like when melchizedic gets brought involved to an argument on tithing. Ah. You're really jumping through some hoops to do this and so I just want to point out again doesn't change the previous conversation about tithing no christian ever. Did it in the new testament. It's never commanded to the church in the new testament. So just let that be that so then I would say ah.

19:08.52
forestandtrees
Um.

19:11.15
Jeremy
I think we have to understand contextually tithing was more of a system of taxation in the old testament so you got to realize this is not the same model. You know if if we're reading this in America we're trying to apply this model to us this would be more like them paying taxes to the state if you will. Because that was all one and the same in Israel right in this time. So god was the leader god had the chosen person but you you gave money back spiritually to the the nation. It's all the same thing in that context. So I think. Also keep in mind when we look at old testament references like this a lot of this is is more probably about taxation concepts and how you fund the government and fund basic living things than it is just spiritually based as to the actual question which is interesting if god you know, just. Said poof I'm gonna provide everything the church needs. No more no more offering plates being passed none of this I think the reason why god doesn't do that is that generosity really is a good thing for us across the board like generosity is a good thing and so yes god could. Negate any need for us to give anything but in doing so we would that would produce less generosity which would be selfishness and not more generosity and I think god knows and it's part of how we're created that when we are generous. We are at our best.

20:42.74
Jeremy
So I think that's my answer is because god wants generous people and fundamentally generosity brings out the best in us now there's an asterisk next to that Jeff and the qualification I would say I think we have to acknowledge and we've we've touched on this a bit previously.

20:53.92
forestandtrees
Okay.

21:02.62
Jeremy
That the American Church model has become a lot to maintain and we've touched on you know staff salaries production budgets. Ah you know, moving lights and cameras and big screens and huge auditoriums and all of that. It's become a lot to maintain and so I think we have to have a balance conversation even when we talk about giving or any of this of just because we've created this need in the model doesn't doesn't spiritually justify the ask necessarily doesn't negate it but it also doesn't say. Hey we need $5000000 because we built this church that needs to you know, run on 5000000 therefore you guys are strict obligated to give $5000000 no the model has created that and if we want that model to sustain like that. Then yeah, we gotta give $5000000 but if you go hey I don't think the model needs $5000000 which is.

21:45.28
forestandtrees
Um.

21:58.34
Jeremy
Camp I'm in today I think we can do this in a different way with more imagination then we can use our generosity toward other things and so I think generosity is always a good thing. But as we've previously touched on and one of your previous questions. You know giving to the church does not. Automatically equate generosity.

22:18.31
forestandtrees
Yeah, and well and so when you say that it makes me think of how the sort sort of the cyclical nature of church plants right? How churches will become almost too big for their own good and they'll become so much of an infrastructure that people will. Recognize the hypocrisy in this and then go off to start their own church in their living room and then that church will eventually just become its own mega corporation entity. Um, true. Yeah.

22:50.93
Jeremy
It's really the problem of growth. But what do you do when when the thing you're doing gross. Do you do you build it bigger and bigger and bigger or do you decentralize it and split it and most of the time the church has found ways to build it bigger and bigger and you know in the.

22:55.19
forestandtrees
M.

23:08.26
Jeremy
Multi-site model with technology. It's gotten a lot easier to pull that off.

23:14.91
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, ah and and I don't know I guess I'm torn about the the idea of um people doing this because yeah I was going to ask like why doesn't god like just prompt people to like volunteer their labor. But also there's kind of a problem with. I would say with the church like exploiting volunteer labor to to do their productions and and things like that. Um I don't know if you have thoughts on that I you know I used to be on staff so I kind of like got paid to volunteer but I would work with a ton of people who showed up you know. 6 a m on a Sunday morning to run lights and move cameras and stuff out of the goodness of their own heart and you know god god bless him for it. but but yeah kind of since leaving the church I've I've heard a lot of people like looking back on those times of volunteering and feel like they kind of exploited me for free labor. Ah, which is something I I didn't think about until I was kind of on the outside looking in.

24:17.60
Jeremy
It's tricky because I think the church again at its core is people. It's not an institution at its core and so an institution is a is a particular expression of that. But it's not what it is inherently so you cannot have.

24:32.68
forestandtrees
Right.

24:32.86
Jeremy
Even take the house church right? People have to help out like can't be 1 person running the House Church and especially in the house church. You probably have lots of people doing different roles and but it's split evenly and it probably doesn't feel lopsided or doesn't feel like there's an imbalance of power I think what you're acknowledging is in the in the era we're in with. Giant churches that are giant institutions and a lot of people are making really big salaries and then you expect someone to spend a lot of their weekend that can feel a little bit bizarre at times and then if you are a staff member in the week and you have a certain role and then you're you know. Lovingly compelled to serve in and the weekend as an expression of your job that does get a little murky to like what am I do am I volunteering this and is this forced.

25:21.38
forestandtrees
Yeah I look I looked at it as basically like I said basically I get paid to volunteer right? like I like sometimes I didn't You're sure but I guess I'm doing better right.

25:28.64
Jeremy
And is not volunteering. That's your job they call that a salary.

25:37.11
forestandtrees
But I'm doing better than the you know the 14 year old kid I'm sitting next to whose mom dropped him off and told him to run cameras for 4 hours so so I can't complain about it I suppose. But yeah.

25:44.50
Jeremy
Ah, right right? That's why I think the same thing if the model has become too complicated and too big then yeah I think the it affects everything it's gonna affect how much money is needed to bring in every week to maintain it.

25:54.90
forestandtrees
Um.

26:00.91
Jeremy
And how many bodies you need to run it and I think you know the American Church model has gotten complicated. It's gotten big. It's gotten bulky. You need a lot of money a lot of millions of dollars and a lot of bodies to run this thing and I think a lot of people are wondering. Is there.

26:17.60
forestandtrees
Right? And so like right? so to go back to my original question wouldn't that just solve so many problems for the church If if God provided right? like like let some somewhat argue The church doesn't need a smoke machine but the church could have some faith and test God in this right? They could ask god.

26:17.69
Jeremy
There a simpler way to do it.

26:36.72
forestandtrees
We need a smoke machine provide 1 make it happen and if it didn't then then that would be their answer to that particular prayer. But maybe god would provide something they truly did need. And it would be a way for us to discover what is the 1 true church right? because there's many religions and many denominations and they all are on the same model of asking for donations and we could find out which church was god's favorite if god would just provide for that one specific church.

27:05.24
Jeremy
What if God provided for all of them just to meth with people.

27:10.23
forestandtrees
Ah, ah yeah, yeah I guess maybe he does? Yeah, that's true because he prompts people to give somehow.

27:15.93
Jeremy
Well, but I Okay, you've you've had experience working there and with these people like legitimately. What do you think if God were to do what you're proposing does that make better versions of the people who attend if they have to bring nothing to it.

27:22.80
forestandtrees
Um.

27:32.78
Jeremy
They they don't need to volunteer. They don't need to give they don't do anything is God supernaturally provides everything does that create better christians in your opinion or does it create worse versions of them.

27:44.48
forestandtrees
I Think yeah I mean it would it would give people more more evidence that God is real which to me seems like a very very valuable thing in terms of christianity right? okay.

27:58.83
Jeremy
Sure but you're you're you're dodging the question. That's not the question would that would that allow them become better versions of themselves if they if generosity was in no way a part of what they needed to do.

28:04.11
forestandtrees
Would it make them better people if they didn't have to give anything.

28:16.70
Jeremy
Because God provided everything.

28:19.30
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I'm trying trying to imagine what that's like I don't know like if I go over to a friend's house and they provide everything for me right? they this they bake this delicious meal and and. Do all the prep work and I offer do the dishes and they say no just relax I'm going to do everything for you right? I I don't know I guess sometimes I feel a little bit uncomfortable with with just being served like that or I wouldn't want that kind of treatment all the time but does it make does it make me a worse person.

28:48.20
Jeremy
But I think that use that analogy What if they came over to your house and you looked at them and said hey well you you made all this last time. Could you do it? Could you do it again at my house when that feels a little little weird like when it at your house. You would probably naturally kick in and go oh now it's is my turn to do it. That's the point.

28:59.72
forestandtrees
Um, sure sure that would be uncomfortable.

29:07.76
Jeremy
Like you would have a sense of oh I should I should contribute to this I Think if God did everything that would never kick in. You would always look to God and go well God's gonna God's gonna do it I think it would create apathy.

29:10.82
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

29:20.31
forestandtrees
Um, yeah yeah I suppose I mean that's like going back to our original topic of of human laziness right? where we are inclined to just take things for granted, right? like there are there are people who um. Thank god every morning for waking up and thank god for the air they breathe right? and I certainly am guilty of of taking basic things like that for granted. So yeah I'll I'll give you that point Jeremy I'll say there is there is some value to to having some skin in the game right is the phrase of. Of investing some of yourself into a project ah giving sacrificially.

29:56.53
Jeremy
Well and into anything I think even you know you mentioned a friendship if if you have a friend who every time you're together. It's always one sighted. It's always the same person paying. It's always the same person making the meal. It's always the same. You know at some point that's not a great friendship like it's gotta be.

30:08.11
forestandtrees
Um.

30:13.60
forestandtrees
1 sided? yeah.

30:15.81
Jeremy
Yeah, it's got to be an equal investment to some degree. Ah and I think what you're proposing if god did that would not be an equal investment at all. It would be all 1 sided all lopsided. We would just stare at god and go fix it solve it. You know.

30:25.20
forestandtrees
Yeah.

30:32.31
forestandtrees
Yeah that's that's an interesting argument I suppose I suppose I'm I'm sort of asking like is it completely 1 sided right? like it's possible that the relationship between man and guy god is a 100% 1 sided relationship. Um. But yeah I don't know if you have thoughts on that.

30:50.27
Jeremy
Well I think this is where we're getting back into free will now because does free will matter does what you and I do matter or is God you know, just waiting around God's gonna solve it and I think you go to you know an extreme and say well then you could argue God isn't real. So then. Free will matters because there is no God right? like it's all what we do. But I think you can land in the middle which is where I would be.. It's like yeah free will from the human point of view is real and God has free will too. God is also an agent of you know change and god. Besides things and does things and and I think that there you know God figures out ways to engage us and there's been times you know I've had times even in generosity where I have felt a weird prompting from God on more than one occasion to help someone with something in a tangible way. I would say was from God and you know God used that in cool Ways. So I would say yeah and once that you could say that was God doing that because God prompted me but it was me doing it because I actually carried it out and to me I think that's the sweet spot when God meets the needs of people and. You know I think that's I think one time I literally said hey you know this I feel like you've been praying for this and God has answered your prayer with us and that's what they literally said like yeah we have literally been praying for this and God told you to do it which to me is pretty cool like oh okay, well God answered your prayer and.

32:18.75
forestandtrees
Um.

32:22.61
Jeremy
This is how we do it.

32:23.96
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, okay I can buy that I mean I like yeah I like the idea in general of just ah, being invested and and having to I don't know incorporate contribute something to to the relationship. Yeah, that that makes sense to me so I like your answer all right? But yeah let's move on to verse 11 ah so if the priesthood of Levi on which the law was based could be could have achieved the perfection got intended.

32:42.80
Jeremy
Thank you.

32:56.14
forestandtrees
Why did god need to establish a different priesthood with a priest in the order of melchizededek instead of the order of Levi and Aaron so this speaks to a biblical theme of genealogies and bloodlines. Um, if you read ah. Particularly the old testament the beginning of some of the gospels of Jesus make a make a very specific point to begin with a genealogy and say it's very important that the nation of Israel king David Abraham and isaac and Jacob all these people lead to this. This messiah for this plan of salvation and the entire old testament I would say is is this whole is the story of Israel right? like Israel is clearly the protagonist and basically every other tribe is the bad guys. So. It's that's something that that always bothered me I suppose is the idea of god seems to very clearly choose favorites here and I know he opens it up to all people in the new testament but still for the majority of human history from the biblical perspective god had like a favorite. People group and what's to deal with that.

34:15.97
Jeremy
So I appreciate this question because as I thought about this question this week it reminded me of a bias that I think I have as a christian and I think a lot of christians have where we overlook this part because the you know story's so central. And it's like yeah, that's how god did it and of course this is you know and I think you're raising a very fair critique of that like why? like why did god do it this way and even you know, maybe that's a little jacked up or maybe there's a better way to do it. So I appreciate the question I think it exposes a blind spot in. Probably a lot of christianity that we take for granted. So thank you for that. My response I think would be that everything in the bible is done in context which I think is something we often overlook right? This is a real time with real people with real situations. So I think sometimes when. Christians want to argue you know this fluffy inerrant view of the scripture. It's almost like it's this document that like fell out of heaven and you know I'm just magically poof. We have the bible which you know I think does a total disservice to the fact that this is like. So many people involved and stories and struggles and god showing up and questions and confusion and you know all of this and it's like and then what we have is so much richer because of it. But it's not this out of context thing. So these are real people these are real contexts these are real stories. These are real.

35:50.33
Jeremy
Challenges You know you look at the new testament. These are real things that they were trying to solve not just like hey theoretically let's write some stuff down and so I think it speaks to the fact that God met real people and so these are not just God you know poof shows up to everybody like God showed up to people and you know. Then you go Okay, well why?? why? not God show up to everybody Well, you made the point and I think it's fair that this really opens up a new testament which totally right? You get to the new testament and it's like the net is wide now everybody.

36:19.62
forestandtrees
Um, but but he but even then it's it creates so many problems in the new testament right? because there's all the debates about our gentiles in or not, you know it's.

36:27.42
Jeremy
Sure right.

36:31.90
forestandtrees
It's easy to forget if you haven't read the new testament recently a major recurring theme is saying reassuring people. No no, no, it's ok, you don't have to get circumcised. It's okay to knock it circumcised. Yeah.

36:39.80
Jeremy
Oh they were not early adopters of this at all. No, they're like dragging their feet like you sure you want all these people in right? And yeah.

36:46.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, and it's fascinating that you know two thousand years later it's still it's still kind of a hot topic contentious issue of of should people get circumcised or not. You know it's just Google it there. There is no consensus.

37:01.41
Jeremy
Ah Wow I didn't I didn't know we were getting the circumcision today. That's that's a bonus topic didn't even didn't even anticipate. Okay, but here's the thing.

37:07.54
forestandtrees
I Mean that is not that's circumstances not a niche topic of the bible. It's it's all over it. Yeah I'm sorry.

37:14.53
Jeremy
It is I just didn't know we were going there today hebrew 7 ah I'm not afraid of it Jeff we can. We can talk about circumcision I've I've taught it I've I've used the banana illustration in in other news. Okay, so yes, it opens up the new testament. And yes, it's reluctant even then agree to all this but huge but here even in the old testament. There's a theme that was not carried out so I want to make that clear but was there and is very prevalent once you look for it.

37:42.97
forestandtrees
And.

37:49.28
Jeremy
Despite the fact it wasn't there and the first time you find it is in genesis 12 verses 2 through 4 okay, this is god talking to who we know as Abraham at this point his name's Abram doesn't has his name change yet and god is laying out like and again if you know the old testament Abraham's a big deal. He's he's a big deal. He he shows up a lot as referenced a lot in the new testament. So here is god laying out the plan for Abraham Genesis Twelve Two god says to Abram I will make you into a great nation I will bless you and make you famous now we go? yeah. That's awesome for Abram and you go yeah, that sucks for everybody else but then notice and you will be a blessing to others I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt and then catch this line all the families on earth will be blessed through you so I would suggest. Here is the heart of god looks very much like Jesus that I'm going to bless all families on earth literally everyone's going to be blessed and god's method of doing it was to start small and have that person expand out based on how that person experienced god. So you could even say to that. That's not fair. God should have gone to everybody which sure that's not how god did it but I would at least say you have to acknowledge in the story of the old testament god's intent from the beginning this is genesis 12 we're at we're at the beginning here from the beginning.

39:17.44
Jeremy
Was that all people will be blessed by god if the people of god would be faithful and as you and I both know Jeff that did not play out. Well they they did not do that. But then you get the new testament and I'm gonna I'm gonna add fuel to your fire.

39:29.69
forestandtrees
Um.

39:34.70
Jeremy
Why did jesus only have 12 disciples and of the 12 why did he have 3 that were closer than the other ones. So yeah I hear the point you're making and I think it's valid I also think god's intent is always to bless everybody but god has always started somewhere. With someone in order to do that and to me that just shows this is a real thing. This is not like an abstract alienship comes down and god just hovers overall people you you know No this is real people. God shows up god tells this compelling story god invites him into this narrative and. Some of them did better than others at actually living that out but that was the goal all along.

40:18.90
forestandtrees
Yeah, Ah, and again it it makes more sense to me if God is not all powerful and not omnipotent right? If for whatever reason he only has access to the hearts and minds of this one specific tribe. I mean even throughout the old testament God is constantly jealous of bail and ashera and the gods of the other tribes and he's always trying to prove that he's better than them right? Yeah yeah, Well I mean that's the way that's the way the text is written though right.

40:41.90
Jeremy
Or Like least they saw it that way. Yeah, who wrote it the ancient near East It israelites wrote it I think they wrote what they perceive which is yeah this is like.

40:51.82
forestandtrees
The the divinely inspired people. Yeah.

41:01.74
Jeremy
Our god's better than your god my dad could beat up your dad. That's this is like playground theology like 1 oh one at at.

41:07.13
forestandtrees
Um, right? But if you go but if you go like the mistranslation. Ah ish you know interpretation then then that just has big implications right? like that changes. Okay.

41:19.40
Jeremy
I'm not saying mistranslation at all I think God allowed them to think that of who who God is but I don't think God is like that.

41:21.16
forestandtrees
Miss Misunderstanding right? Um, like with the Holy Land Conquest God punishes them by making them wander in the wilderness because they didn't have the courage. To fight the people in canaan wasn't that wasn't that God saying I want you to conquer this nation and if you don't do it I will punish you sorry if this is yeah if this is too Specific. We could.

41:49.29
Jeremy
Okay, so this is again, we're I didn't know we're going here but this is no this is good I just I If if I knew this was coming I'd give you specific verses. But I know I didn't know this is coming. There's a number of examples in the old testament.

41:57.67
forestandtrees
Circle back to this. Okay.

42:08.10
Jeremy
That reference god going before the israelites and god driving people out through like fear and persuasion not through bloodshed and I think those indicate what was probably the reality that god was saying look I will go and drive these people out. You just need to trust me and follow me and there's a ah bunch of verses that imply this that god would go and do it and they just needed to trust god I think that was the intent I don't think Israel had the imagination for that I think they heard god promise us this land.

42:46.44
Jeremy
Therefore we get to kill them and it's sanctioned by God and God met them in that and allowed them to think that of who God is and that again would be God's stooping down to meet them and take on their sin Even though God knows that's not really what I'm like and that's not my desire but that was the furthest. In the progressive revelation that they could imagine God At that Point. So I think God's intent and again you see this throughout the old testament in numerous sections was that God would go before them. They just needed to follow and they weren't even willing to do that They were like no this is you know they were so scared and this is too big and God's like all right fine I'll I'll do this with your kids.

43:24.37
forestandtrees
But he also gives them like super powers to be able to fight better if when the when the misunderstanding people do choose choose violence is that right? yeah.

43:24.63
Jeremy
And skip you.

43:37.22
Jeremy
Well according to them. Yes, which again you have to this is where I you know I may sound like I'm being sarcastic I Literally think this is where you have to realize you're reading an ancient near East people. This was written way after these events right? This was written when they were in Babylonian captivity most scholars of belief.

43:44.20
forestandtrees
Yeah.

43:50.50
forestandtrees
M.

43:56.40
Jeremy
And so you have these stories written way later when they need a nationalistic surge of identity and so it's like yeah, let's talk about the stories where our god was bigger than their god and we won and we had the power of god and I think it just plays into that mindset of of that time and god allowed it and so. A mistranslation. It's there and god met them where they are and you have to say does it look like Jesus and I would say no. But what does look like Jesus is god driving people out nonviolently like I could get around that like yeah sure god could supernaturally move people you know through like a ah fear of god but there's nothing that. Happens to them. They just move that would that would make total sense and so I think you see that there that that possibility exists in the text they I just don't think they had the imagination for it at that point.

44:46.14
forestandtrees
Um, okay with that this actually ties kind of perfectly into the the next question because um, as I said this whole chapters about Melizedek in verse 17 um quotes the psalms you are priest forever in the order of melizedek. So that brought me back to psalm 110 which which we have referenced before right? that was the um, the most quoted verse in the new testament right? The but the the enemiess being a footstool. Um, so I'll read just a passage from the end of psalm 101 which is more of this.

45:12.26
Jeremy
Yeah.

45:19.99
forestandtrees
Conquest warrior god stuff. We've been talking about the lord stands at your right hand to protect you. He will strike down many kings when his anger erupts he will punish the nations and will fill their lands with corpses. He will shatter heads over the whole earth. So ah, yeah, once again. Tribalistic like us be them. We have the power of god we have god on our side and that's how we're going to conquer our enemies. So yeah, you've you've been responding to that already and I we I feel like. There's a way to read the new testament as this radical reinterpretation of old testament understanding understandings of god but it seems to me that the new testament could be so much more explicit and clear. If. If Jesus really looks like god and Jesus wants to communicate that god is all about loving your enemies and being peaceful being nonviolent. Why not take the opportunity to make it more of an apology tour and set the record straight and clear up all of these all of these things that not only. Tarnish god's credibility and his good name but also have real world consequences because it gives people permission to wage holy war.

46:44.89
Jeremy
I Like the idea of a new testament apology tour. That's good.

46:51.35
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, ah just Jeez it could have been just a notesap of hey guys sorry I wasn't myself back then? yeah.

46:56.40
Jeremy
Or about all that ponkering stuff that that got a little carried away. Okay, so I think you have to realize first off you know which I pointed this out last time you know the section you just read in psalm 101 author of he isn't quoting that part which I think you just have to acknowledge. So yes, quoting the old testament not quoting those verses. Okay, so it's not bringing that over into this context. So I think that's worth just acknowledging that stayed in the old testament. The author didn't bring that over. But I think we have to realize going back to what I said earlier this is context. Okay.

47:15.29
forestandtrees
Sure.

47:21.79
forestandtrees
Sure.

47:32.18
Jeremy
Even the new testament writers these are specific people living in a current culture and they were living in violent times as well and you know we historically know more about this but with a little bit more you know ah confidence than going further back into the old testament but we we know about you know Rome and things that rome did and you know this is where they would you know put christians up on poles and light them on fire to have streetlights I mean this is like that's the culture where you'd go to an event and you'd watch you know humans fight to the death or be eaten alive by animals for entertainment. So I think you gotta realize they're still living in that context like they're still living in incredibly violent what we would call incredibly violent times where things that are publicly acceptable we would today would go whoa. No no way and so I think they did move forward. In the progressive revelation I think it's it's ah fair to want them to have moved further than they did and I I would join you in that I wish there was more of an apology tour of like yeah that that wasn't really what god's like sorry we you know we know it's Jesus now I do think it's there.

48:38.17
forestandtrees
Um.

48:48.31
Jeremy
I just think it's there in the sense of they are communicating that within their context and as I'll thinking about this question I actually thought about I'm gonna give you a hot take. Okay, this is Jeremy's hot take on something totally different but related CSLewis we've talked about him before one of the greatest theologians in modern times.

48:56.52
forestandtrees
Okay.

49:07.39
Jeremy
Ah, really like cslewiscslewis lived during world war two and much of his his career was was during you know that that time I'm gonna here's my hot take I'm gonna argue if cslewis live today CSLewis would be a pacifist. There's my hot take. Now if you read cslewis he was not a pacifist and he tried to argue for just war and tried to justify this and you know had some harsh critiques of pacifism I would say that is because he witnessed. The horrors of the nazis and did not have the imagination with his current context to imagine that god could be really different than that and I want to acknowledge I don't say that to like knock on him I don't know that I would have been any different had I been alive. You know under the nazi regime and I'm watching them. All of that I think it's easier when you're removed from that to say. Okay, yeah I do have the imagination to to say? Yeah I don't think that had to be that way. So I again my my hot take is I think cs lewis if he were not ah living during world War Ii and all of that would be a pacifist today and would have no problem.

50:04.18
forestandtrees
Um.

50:22.30
Jeremy
Arguing that and so when we go back and we use cs lewis to argue that I always say well you got to keep cslewis in World World war two like that's when he lived like that's that dominated his worldview same thing with these authors the new testament they're living in violence of Rome it. So yeah, they're not in the old testament anymore. But they're also not in like what we would consider a total modernized culture that has moved beyond that and so there's 2 examples I could think of you know, pretty easily that I go well here's some subversion to the violence that again is not as obvious as you and I might like but it's there. Luke 22 when they're gathering in the garden of get seminary getting ready and jesus is about to get captured There's there's this first you know where Jesus says go and get swords and what's funny is everybody uses this to argue against pacifism and I always love when people use that verse because I'm like yes, let's go to Luke 22 because verse 38 says look lord they replied. We have 2 swords among us which is just comical Jesus tells them to go get swords they get 2 of them right? like there's at least 12 of them so 10 of them didn't go get a sword so not even the majority of your followers did this Jesus.

51:28.66
forestandtrees
Um.

51:36.33
Jeremy
We have 2 swords among us and Jesus says that's enough to which I'd say enough for what what? What are these guys gonna do a 2 swords. The answer is nothing other than making a point when one of them actually uses a sword and Jesus. You know rebukes him for it. That's it's enough for Jesus to make his point. It's not enough for armed warfare to defend themselves violently It's not enough for that at all 2 sorts. So I would say if you actually let like you logically expand that whole story I think Luke is totally being subversive to violence here but he's doing it. Kind of tongue in cheek not overtly saying hey and now Jesus was against violence and he you know even though he said you know hey if you live by a sword you're gonna die by sword. So again, there's there's this idea then to me the best example I think we've talked about this is revelation 5 where John is describing. You know what? this is all going to look like when things are made right and says that the elders are looking for the lion of the tribe of Judah which was this violent old testament image of god that you find all throughout the old testament this lion of Judah and then in revelation 5 there's no lion to be found. But the one that emerges to open the scroll of god's power is the slaughtered little lamb and then from that point on god is referenced as the lamb throughout the book of revelation that to me is so clearly John throwing shaded all this violence and all this imagery of the old testament going. You thought it was a lion.

53:07.79
Jeremy
Because this is the dominant violent image and it's not. It's the lamb that has violence done to it and so I think it's there where I share your feeling as I wish there were more of it. Yes, amen.

53:23.60
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, and and more explicitly and not so vague and and open to interpretation right? because again, that's such.

53:27.74
Jeremy
Sure but I also think why did Jesus teach in parables like you could be more clear than that. Jesus.

53:36.72
forestandtrees
Yeah, you could be and yeah, right? if we're all just discussing theology and stuff. It's It's cute and fun and everything. But again when there's real world implications and and people are starting Religious Wars over various interpretations of the bible then. And it seems less cute and less justifiable to be so vague. Yeah, Ah, um, is it isn't there a verse in the bible. This is God is not the author of confusion.

53:58.64
Jeremy
I Totally agree with you I will take it up with the big guy when I meet him.

54:12.78
Jeremy
I Don't know if it says it like that. But yes there is I think it's off top my head It's when they're talking about the early church and speaking in tongues and I think they're saying our God is a God of not order but basically like God doesn't just create.

54:30.43
forestandtrees
Okay, yeah I guess I've I've heard that quoted a lot from from like atheists like counter apologetics type people saying like God is not the author of confusion yet. We have so many different denominions and interpretations.

54:31.22
Jeremy
You know chaos I think is the context of that.

54:45.47
Jeremy
No, but I would say God is the author of mystery and you know profound beauty and good questions and God is not a God of certainty.

54:47.44
forestandtrees
Of the scriptures. But.

55:04.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, not a God of certainty but that's right, but that's so interesting right? because isn't he supposed to be like absolute reality right? like a lot of people talk about um, absolute truth right? as opposed to postmodernism.

55:19.47
Jeremy
Sure but think about it from god's point of view. It'd be like if I had to say to you if we're working together and you report to me on an org chart and you and I have a disagreement and I had to say Jeff I'm your boss. You will do what I'm saying if I have to say.

55:21.36
forestandtrees
Um.

55:35.53
forestandtrees
M.

55:39.11
Jeremy
Jeff I'm your boss I'm a horrible boss and you have very little respect for me right? I mean like if I have to claim that like okay, you like no one who's a good boss has to remind an employee I'm your boss if you find yourself doing that your employees.

55:45.79
forestandtrees
Um.

55:58.15
Jeremy
Don't probably respect you or want to follow you outside of the fact that they have to to do it to get a paycheck God's like that God knows who God is doesn't need to Prove. It doesn't need to claim it. So I think there's signs where God's like I Sure think whatever you want to think about me. It doesn't change my reality like I think God's going on going I am God I am god.

56:17.38
forestandtrees
Yeah, he did he he does seem to be very secure in his own identity and in our modern times right in that in the sense of he's he's perfectly fine with people interpreting and coming to understand him like. With basically any interpretation they want and he offers no correction versus in the old testament. He's very specific about like you need to know that Yahweh is the god and these other false gods they're they're false idols. You know what I mean.

56:49.63
Jeremy
I would say the parallel there probably be more accurately that in the new testament. It's the name of Jesus so it's not I don't think it's hey it doesn't matter anymore in the new testament I would just say rather than Yahweh it's it's the name of Jesus is the uniting name.

56:58.21
forestandtrees
Um.

57:06.52
Jeremy
And I you know I do think it matters and I think god is clear on that. But I don't think god's insecure and I think that there's a lot of insecure christians and it says more about us and our belief system when we get all defensive and we start arguing these things than it does about is god concerned like god doesn't need to be defended. And I think Christian spent so much time defending god like god's god's got it. God's fine. Doesn't doesn't need you to do that and it's usually very confusing when we do.

57:31.29
forestandtrees
Um.

57:40.26
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah in in some ways it feels like the more you talk about it the more the more confusing it gets um okay well I think that's ah, that's a good transition for my last question because we're talking about the character of god who god is so. Verse 27 says unlike those other high priests. He does not need to offer sacrifices every day they did this for their own sins and then for the sins of the people. But Jesus did this once for all when he offered himself as a sacrifice for the people's sins. Okay, so we're back on. Atonement theory and all of these objections we we brought up earlier I I hear your answers to them and Jeremy and I agree that I feel like there is a way to explain them with human error saying this is. Human tribalism um corrupting our under understanding of god but this seems to be a biblical principle about who god is and his character of of he needs that blood right? and a couple chapters we're going to get to hebrews nine eleven. Without the shedding of blood. There is no forgiveness of sins and there's the stuff about the animal sacrifice that this verse is basically talking about oh god doesn't need animal sacrifice anymore because now we got Jesus Jesus is the sacrifice so what what's your understanding of this. Why does god need.

59:12.76
forestandtrees
Ah, blood sacrifice.

59:13.97
Jeremy
This is this is a good one and I think you could This is like a rabbit hole you go way down and probably wouldn't have any more clarity Once you got back out than than you had going in because I think there's so many views on this and so much complexity to this.

59:21.93
forestandtrees
Um.

59:32.39
Jeremy
1 thing I want to acknowledge I don't think this verse you know verse 27 that you read I don't think it has to imply penal substitutionary atonement because it doesn't say that Jesus is the sacrifice to god the father right? It's how penot substitutionary atonement is the father is angry. The father needs to be appeased.

59:40.30
forestandtrees
Um.

59:51.20
Jeremy
This is saying Jesus offered as a sacrifice for the people since and as I've argued I think it's it's more helpful to view that as Jesus versus the devil or the the forces of evil and that's what the sacrifice is for but this is weird and I I think blood is weird.

59:51.90
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

01:00:02.10
forestandtrees
Um.

01:00:10.87
Jeremy
And christianity on so many levels because you know you get to like John 6 and what Jesus says about drinking his blood and a whole bunch of people left and it's still weird and they thought the early church were cannibals I mean blood blood in the theology just gets bizarre but I was reminded of we got a. An email from ah from perry one of our listeners to the podcast and had a great insight onto this topic as we were we touched on this earlier and we saved this because we thought this fits really well into what we're talking about in into just question. So I want to read a away that Perry. Explains this but I think is actually a very helpful way of looking at it. Perry says this as a parent I love my kids and I want a healthy trusting gracious relationship with them yet when they choose to make choices that violate or go against that I am forced out of love to hold them responsible and sometimes enact roles with consequences. In order for them to learn I as a parent don't want to do it that way because that is not my desire It's that sometimes because of the nature of the kids you do have to either have them face natural consequences or enact a consequence that may not happen naturally in the present but would occur in some form in the future in a much more significant. And harmful way in order for them to recognize the value and need to do things differently, especially as they mature I think that speaks to the heart of god now again on this point I totally agree as a parent of 5 kids. There's lots of times you know I've said to our kids like hey I'm your consequence right now once you grow up and you're 18 and you do this.

01:01:48.18
Jeremy
I won't be your consequence anymore. It'll be the world and it'll be far greater than you know I'm just trying to teach you a concept here. That's what I think Perry's getting at then he says this escalations 193 says the law was given because of transgressions which are consequences of sin until Jesus came I don't think that's what god wanted. But as Jeremy said he keeps his rules and due to his nature of love and a desire for what's best enacted laws and atonement systems as a means of teaching and directing them back to him should they choose and that would have avoided the need for sacrifices in that way. So I do feel and this is concluding point. It is entirely consistent that god commands them sacrifices yet does not want them I think it's actually really well said because this is what we find even in the old testament. You know we've we've talked about this but psalm 5013 and fourteen do I eat the meat of bowls says god do I drink the blood of goats. Make thankfulness your sacrifice to god and keep the vows you made to the most high god like you think I I eat this you think I drink this like is not for me isaiah one eleven I get no pleasure from the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. So I think there is a huge element of the sacrificial system that wasn't ever forgot. It was for the people and I remember Rob Bell who may rest in peace after John Piper excommunicated him from Christendom Rob Bell had ah had a great you know way of looking at this where he actually said that the sacrificial system was god alleviating.

01:03:10.56
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah.

01:03:21.22
Jeremy
Cultural pressures they had so that rather than constantly trying to do more god was limiting what they had to do so that they wouldn't keep going on and on trying to superstitiously figure out. You know how to appease god and I think that's ah, that's a helpful way of like this is for them. This isn't necessarily for god now why did. Blood have to be shed. Ah you know Hebrews again, you referenced verse or chapter 9 which we're gonna get to it again. It does seem to imply. There's something about blood which I'd go back to we find elsewhere that there is life in the blood. You know that concept and so I think this is a a matter truly of Jesus. Giving life freely and willingly in exchange for any claim that that evil had against us and in that free giving of life that is in you know the resurrection power that is where evil implodes upon itself and where god displays you know this grand plan and so. I don't fully understand it I agree with you. It is a little bit weird. But I think probably most of what we see of the sacrificial system was probably for the people more than it was for god and I think if you approach it from that point of view. It offers a helpful framework to kind of figure out. What. What's going on there in the big picture.

01:04:40.12
forestandtrees
Ah, again like it. It seems to make like so many like long passages of the bible where it's going specifically into like the way you're supposed to dissect the bowls and and dip the horns in the blood and you know these are the these are not. Ah, brief mentions like this significant portion of the bible is just specific instructions for how to perform a ritualistic blood sacrifice If if that's.

01:05:03.58
Jeremy
And depending on you know what your bible reading plan is I remember there would be times where like I do 3 chapters a day and like that would be my only 3 chapters and I'm like well that put my day on a funky note. Yeah amy.

01:05:17.30
forestandtrees
Right? It's like it's like reading um Upton Sinclair's the jungle or something it's or an expose on factory farming. Um.

01:05:24.23
Jeremy
Yeah there's certain certain things you read you gotta to be in the right headpace for it and if that's all you're reading of the bible which is why a little plug I have a bible reading plan that I I adjusted from another guy that is 5 chapters a day and it spreads it out 5 different books and it it allows you to get I think. Allow I'm like I won't play this back. It allows you to see the forest and the trees Jeff because you you see a little glimpse of all the bible. So. That's why I encourage people don't do a bible reading plan that really don't read it straight through because that's where most get way bogged down when you get into this stuff but keep a view of Jesus.

01:05:53.31
forestandtrees
Or just.

01:06:01.10
Jeremy
At all times and if you do that It makes the rest of the bible easier to follow.

01:06:05.91
forestandtrees
Yeah, so you mentioned the word superstition which is something I've thought about a lot in trying to understand the reason for the blood Sacrifice. It does seem to be this. Um this human phenomenon of. People feeling like you know, historically all kinds of religions and and different people groups have sacrificed cattle animals and some tribes have sacrificed their own children to try to make their crops grow or like the mayans did human sacrifice because they believed it made the sun Rise just.

01:06:31.31
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah.

01:06:39.19
forestandtrees
Just things like that it it does seem to be this this very bizarre human phenomenon of feeling like you need to appease the gods and the only way to appease them is to give something up. Um, and I've heard that argument that says like that's that the old testament is like progressive for the time because God is accommodating. Humans desire to make sacrifices by saying no human sacrifices. You don't sacrifice your children. You only sacrifice animals which is you know, even though I'm vegan I think yeah, it's better to kill animals than to kill people. Ah.

01:07:10.58
Jeremy
Hey here we go.

01:07:16.14
forestandtrees
But it still feels like unnecessary violence though. Yeah, and again I've also heard some Theologian I Wish I could remember who it was trying to explain the whole idea of um God never wanted sacrifices. This was kind of. Making an accommodation for the people because they wanted to kill animals anyway because they wanted to eat the meat and it just was kind of a convenient way to tie it all in there right? because these these animals are getting slaughtered anyway for whatever reason it's. It's baked into us to want to make a blood Sacrifice. So God says. Okay, fine I Want a blood sacrifice or he allows people to write it down because they misunderstand the heart of God I don't know just with with all these things. It just seems to me that it makes more sense that that this is people. Just creating God in their own image if you will right like taking their own human biases and interpretations and just saying like oh yeah, that was God God said that that that makes sense.

01:08:22.50
Jeremy
I Think the tricky part is the way I read it. It's a little bit of both so there is some of that tribalism. There is some of that God is who we think he is which anybody who falls God is guilty of right? you know even on my best day I can't.

01:08:29.66
forestandtrees
Um.

01:08:42.70
Jeremy
Can't separate my view of god from my own experiences and you know my own theology and the way I see the world like it's it's all shaped into it and so I think anybody who claims to follow god has to acknowledge to some degree you have shaped that view of god you know in a way that makes sense to you which who knows how much we've. Influence that shaping but I also think there is this element that I just see that god really is in it and god meets him in that and that that to me is like the the crazier part of all that you're saying Jeff because I agree with you. It is like there's a lot there. The crazier part is like so god. Put up with all of that like god was patient and god met them and that like what does that tell us about god and that to me is like that's a god that looks like Jesus that is patient patiently suffering along with his people to get them. You know to move them forward. And that that is consistent with what I find in the person of Jesus and so I don't get bogged down in leviticus and I admit I I gloss over some of those sections and don't get hung up on all the angles in which I need to cut the bull and drain it.

01:09:54.32
forestandtrees
But don't you think people want clarity right? like if okay like like let's say I have a question for you about the podcast like hey can we can we try this this week and I keep texting you and you're not answering my texts.

01:09:58.70
Jeremy
I Think people want certainty.

01:10:11.10
forestandtrees
And I all I want is just a yes or no answer from you. what I what I okay what I interpret that is wow Jeremy is so patient with me because he accepts my texts and he's I believe he's reading them and he's he's patient and good hearted.

01:10:11.28
Jeremy
Jeff I said sorry about that let it go.

01:10:28.68
forestandtrees
It's like no, why don't just answer like why doesn't God just speak up and clear things up for the people who desperately want to know him.

01:10:34.80
Jeremy
Okay I see your analogy and I'll I'll raise you one I think in your analogy you proposed it would be like if someone came to you and said oh I heard you and Jeremy are doing a podcast together. What's Jeremy like and you say oh he's whatever.

01:10:51.75
forestandtrees
Patient kind keeps no records of wrong. Yeah.

01:10:53.75
Jeremy
But rabbiricives you would use. Thank you? Ah I'm all the fruits of the spirit all the time. Thank you Jeff in you, you you describe me and then that person says oh yeah, I met Jeff and you know Jeff said your x y and z and maybe I hear that and I'm like. Yeah, um, some of those things you know and maybe some of that's not true I wouldn't necessarily go to you and say jeff I am that is not accurate that is not who I am why did you say I'm like this? no I'd be like well as Jeff sees me or Jeff understands me right? like that's. That's how Jeff is explaining it and and in relationship with you. There would be that sense of trust of like hey I think that's you trying to be faithful to who you think I am and this relationship and again, that's that's just a microcosm because I'm not god and you're not god but but you know this idea of.

01:11:42.58
forestandtrees
Oh.

01:11:46.64
Jeremy
Like in relationship God allows that and I think that's the it's not that God's silent because again throughout the old testament God's not silent God shows up all over the place and you know does different things. It's just the things that God allows I think is the crazier part and that to me is what. Speaks volumes into the character of who God is.

01:12:08.95
forestandtrees
Okay, right? So so you're basically saying God is very secure in who he is and doesn't doesn't feel the need to be defensive right.

01:12:18.51
Jeremy
Correct it. It would be like how long would you let a friend of yours bad mouth you and stay friends with them like that's you know at some point you'd be like dude you're hurting me like why do you keep telling people these lies or you know you're spreading rumors about me.

01:12:23.99
forestandtrees
Right.

01:12:36.76
Jeremy
And like you're my friends we will believe you that's like that's why I see it going on. It's like wow god allows that like generation after generation. The people of god to say crazy things about god and god slowly fixes the perception generation after to generation as you know as this idea of progressive relation moves along. Knowing full. Well I actually look like Jesus but you guys won't see that for a while. So I'll I'll give you time to get there I like that to me is crazy like that's that's patient I think I I would have cut ties with them and been like yeah, let's try this again. I'm gonna pick a different people group you guys.

01:13:08.45
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

01:13:16.39
Jeremy
You guys didn't do it.

01:13:17.19
forestandtrees
Yeah, those was he I mean he kind of does lose patience with humanity towards the beginning right and decides to start over with the flood. Yeah yeah, couple full starts there but who among who among us hasn't you know.

01:13:25.52
Jeremy
Sure There's a few names. Um, false art.

01:13:36.13
forestandtrees
Tried tried some creative project and had to start over almost immediately I can relate.

01:13:40.52
Jeremy
Um, you've had your own flood graphic design problem I'm just gonna start over.

01:13:43.90
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, yeah, totally totally all right? Well I think I think we're gonna have to leave it there and any closing words for us chere me.

01:13:56.17
Jeremy
No I think it's great and I think you know what's interesting is even though you and I land differently on this. We share this tension that we're both acknowledging is there and so I think that's what's cool is even if you you know say I don't believe in God or I do believe in God. We can all acknowledge some of these tensions here of like well you got to you got to make sense of this somehow and I think it's it's helpful to acknowledge where the tensions are and acknowledge the weirdness and acknowledge. Yeah, it could have been du differently but this is how it was done and how how do we make sense of that and I think that's a huge part of faith and.

01:14:20.30
forestandtrees
Um.

01:14:33.57
Jeremy
Yeah, yeah, whatever a person believes this is this is how you get there is wrestling through some of these ideas and so I appreciate the chance to do it with someone who sees it from a different point of view than me.

01:14:44.31
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah Thanks Jeremy I appreciate you? Ah again, putting up with my questions. My constant curiosity about these things I think another aspect The stereotypically evangelicals are known for being defensive of their faith. So. I think you're a good example of being very godlike in that and not being defensive of these doctrines of faith and just offering your perspective. So wow, thanks, everyone for putting up with us as we ah rattle on and on about. Ah.

01:15:10.67
Jeremy
Well thank you.

01:15:19.36
forestandtrees
Hebrews chapter 7 Hopefully we solved the mystery of melizedek for you and we will be yeah yeah, email us in email us with your ah hot melizedek interpretations. Yeah.

01:15:23.69
Jeremy
We Arley talked about it.

01:15:31.92
Jeremy
All your burning. The kids are that questions.

01:15:37.10
forestandtrees
Yeah, and and we'll get to it next week because I'm sure we'll run out of other things to talk about all right? thanks for listening and yeah, talk to you guys later bye.