We discuss the Wesleyan Quadrilateral (it’s not as complicated as it sounds) the raising of the dead, deconstruction, religious experience, guilt, shame, open theism, and more.
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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YouTube
Facebook
We discuss the Wesleyan Quadrilateral (it’s not as complicated as it sounds) the raising of the dead, deconstruction, religious experience, guilt, shame, open theism, and more.
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
01:02.11
Jeremy
Hello everybody we are back with another episode of the forest and the trees my name is Jeremy and today I'm joined with Jeff.
01:12.23
forestandtrees
That that name no longer has any meaning for me.
01:21.79
Jeremy
Um, you what are you? What are you going by now you know you don't go by Jeff anymore Darth Jeff you are a machine, especially the way you create all those graphics each tweak.
01:25.16
forestandtrees
I'm I'm going by um, Darth Jeff because I'm more machine now than man twisted and evil.
01:36.10
Jeremy
You guys are not checking out the graphics that Jeff is making for this podcast I'm just going to say you're missing out because this dude is cranking out some gold on our social media feed right now.
01:46.10
forestandtrees
Oh thanks. So so nice of you to say Jeremy um it yeah I wanted to ah talk a little bit about the the most recent graphic that I made kind of explaining my understanding of the 3 views of hell.
01:50.12
Jeremy
Ah, okay.
02:01.42
forestandtrees
Made kind of an infographic with an analogy of like it's like a hot dog being roasted in the fire ah to try to conceptualize what hell might look like and I really appreciated something that a commenter named sailor sketches said. Um, about universalism saying if you hold to universalism then hell is basically a very hot shower that washes all the grime off of you and then he also went on to make this whole analogy about how Dante with the inferno has changed our perception of hell and basically saying like. Dante is like J J Abrams to the biblical view of hell being like the original star wars trilogy and so I just have to shout that out at someone else out there is using star wars to understand biblical concepts a man after my own heart.
02:53.86
Jeremy
Have you ever read Dante's inferno
02:56.18
forestandtrees
I have not no I've you know I've I've seen the illustrations and the I don't know I've I've watched Youtube videos of people talking about it. But I've not read read it for myself. No have you.
03:10.69
Jeremy
I have I read the whole trilogy and it's it's bizarre like I think Dante was a troubled individual who was working through some things in ah in literary form because he definitely has a bunch of grudges and he like names people of the day. And specifically names you know what they're going to be punished with in hell and that's some serious shade to throw on someone. You know if you if you have a ah literary license to write and then you're just like I'm going to put you in hell and describe what's going to happen to you like.
03:37.20
forestandtrees
Um.
03:44.94
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's that's some dark stuff for sure.
03:45.68
Jeremy
Wow. Okay.
03:50.13
Jeremy
It's pretty heavy. Well today we're not just talking about hell that was a lot of last week's discussion in Hebrew chapter 5 if you've missed that you're gonna want to tune in to to check out that podcast and go on social media. All of our different channels to see all of the different graphics of the hot dog. And what's happening to the hot dog in each illustration. But today we are in hebrews chapter 6 we are talking about dead people coming back to life talking about testing the limits of free will and we're pondering what it means for god to change god's mind so all that is in chapter 6 and I want to set the tone I have a beautiful passage here that that I personally really resonate with which is I think a great picture of hope that we find in Hebrew chapter 6 this is verses 18 and nineteen and I'd love to set the tone for today with a bit of hope. So therefore we. Who have fled to him being Jesus for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us. This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls I don't know about you Jeff but. A lot of lot of junk in the world lot of suffering lot of sadness lot of heavy stuff and I like the idea of hope and having a hope as an anchor in the midst of whatever storm I'm in.
05:15.46
forestandtrees
Yeah, rebellions are built on hope right? I'm sorry I'm sorry that was a very that was a very serious um thing that you shared and I appreciate it I apologize for for making another Star Wars reference.
05:18.66
Jeremy
This is we have oh we on Star Wars still are we just are we just generic rebellions.
05:31.50
Jeremy
It's all right? We'll let it slide this time. We also have some cool emails. We continue to get and we just love to share this with you guys because it's such an encouragement to Jeff and I that we're not just talking to each other once a week and there's actually listeners who are engaging in these.
05:32.94
forestandtrees
Okay, okay.
05:49.10
Jeremy
Conversations with us and finding value and so that's super encouraging to us. But we had one. We want to share an email we got from Tyler this week that we both thought was super cool and so I want to read part of what Tyler shared this was shared with permission says I am a methodist pastor and I'm going through some faith identity crises myself. There are times when I seriously question what I have learned what I teach preach etc. 1 thing I love about methodists is our use of what is called the wesleyan quadrilateral we look at our faith by interpreting scripture through our traditions experience and reason these are all different for everyone. And my experience cannot be the same as anyone else's there are things in the bible that are just insane to which I think Jeff and I can both give a hearty amen to that yet I root my faith in the life of Jesus and I have seen him show up I have experiences that I can't explain other than god in the holy spirit. That's my journey. It can't be emulated by anyone else. It's my faith and no one can tell me how to live it as far as religious institution goes I take everything with a grain of salt that helps me to take pressure off to have it figured out my rule of thumb is to treat others the way Jesus did go against the grain of man's law. And love the unloved What do you think? Jeff.
07:12.30
forestandtrees
Ah, that I think that was a great email I really was excited when that came in I was excited to read it. Um I had not heard of the wesleyan quadrilateral before so that's been a fun journey for me. Exploring that doing some some research reading some articles watching some Youtube videos of methodist pastors explaining what the wesleyan quadrilateral is and.
07:39.60
Jeremy
And for our listeners if you're scratching your head right now and you're like okay Jeff's talking about these videos we haven't seen them. We don't know what he's talking about. There's 4 sources for development is is what the the quadrilateral focuses on for being scripture tradition reason and experience right.
07:45.50
forestandtrees
Yeah.
07:55.83
forestandtrees
Correct.
07:58.71
Jeremy
And I mean who knew Jeff that we'd be covering spiritual practices from the eighteenth century and our force in the trees podcast. Yeah.
08:07.94
forestandtrees
Yeah, this this is some some heavy stuff I also just want to say? Thank thank you to Tyler specifically for the email and for sharing all of that I thought that was really cool just to share someone who who says they're a pastor who is also um, having some. Crisis of faith moments. Um, but that's awesome I appreciate that. But yeah, it's it's a it's a fascinating framework for understanding your faith I like I said I hadn't heard of it before Jeremy you said that you have right. Is this is this a meaningful framework for you.
08:42.10
Jeremy
Yeah, this is ah so I don't I wouldn't say I necessarily practice it and you know one of the reasons I don't know how Tyler necessarily uses it. 1 of the things that I've often heard in this is. Really an emphasis on you know what what's called sola scripttura which is like scripture above all else and personally I always get hesitant with that phrase which is not necessarily in. You know the the quadrilatal per se but a lot of ways it gets explained I'm not sure if your Youtube videos talked about that.
09:13.83
forestandtrees
Yeah.
09:15.79
Jeremy
But it really puts an emphasis on how to interpret you know, putting scripture first which I get a little nervous at because I think and we've talked about this, you know in previous weeks. But I think sometimes we we make scripture the fourth member of the trinity and we hold it you know on par to to god. And I think scripture is an invaluable resource to point us to god but I'm always hesitant to put anything up. You know next to the the person of Jesus so that's a little bit of my own hesitation. Tyler may be able to tell us in a follow-up email if that is you know a misunderstanding of the quadrilateral or maybe I'm just. Overly cautious because of my own experiences but that's that's a little bit of of pause that I have but I love the the idea of you know, using scripture and tradition and reason and experience and and putting all of them together to try to make sense of you know life and god and what does it mean to be a disciple or to. You know make sense of the world right.
10:14.53
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I love it too and um I I must say the the name wesleyan quadra quadrilateral is a little bit more heady and intimidating than it needs to be I think like you could basically say this is just 4 bullet points that you should. Take into consideration. It's it doesn't have that much to do with math or geometry right? But that said I really like the idea of using charts and graphs to kind of sort out your thoughts and feelings and worldview on things. Not that long ago I actually made a video about using Venn diagrams to determine my own um values when it comes to my personal creative output so it reminded me of that. Um, and so I want to talk about these these 4 points I want to just kind of run through them briefly because like I said this is a brand new. Um, concept for me and first thing I want to say is I can't believe they didn't go for the acronym right? they could they could have called it rest which is the term. We talked about earlier. Um, yeah rest and.
11:18.47
Jeremy
Who that's good, but the problem is they have they have have the s first Jeff that's the problem acronym would have to start with s.
11:25.41
forestandtrees
You know Jeremy you you talked about spiritual rest I know I know that's that's what I figured was the was the only reason they didn't do that if you start if you start with reason that's you're on the the road to ah atheism and or.
11:39.94
Jeremy
To last week to so what we talked about yeah your hot dog's getting too close through the flames.
11:44.88
forestandtrees
Annihilation. Yeah, exactly ah exactly exactly but Christians love a good acronym. So so two sides of the same coin there anyway. So it's a quadrilateral and as as you said, all of these.
11:56.86
Jeremy
I'm with you.
12:01.36
forestandtrees
All these articles and videos always make a point to say like we're not saying they're equal scripture is above the other 3 scripture is paramount right? So that's something that I obviously have issues with because for me, the idea of giving scripture giving the bible. This. Special consideration or considering it as ah, a Trump card that that is like more important than reason. For example, that seems like how you get I guess that's a recipe for religion I suppose of like saying this is a sacred text. Whatever the book says has to be true and if what we observe in the real world is not true then the world is wrong because the book is right because the book has to be right? So that's my hesitation with with scripture and ah.
12:47.60
Jeremy
Sure sure.
12:54.46
forestandtrees
Experience. We're going to talk about later in um, in verses fourth through six we're going to talk about religious experience and my my experience with experience. Ah as as far as reason goes I would say I sort of reason to myself reasoned myself out of. Christianity in some ways. There's a lot of logical problems that it reminds me of when I was kind of going through a crisis of faith and I would watch a lot of debates of an apologist versus an atheist and being surprised to see that the atheist won the debate every time. In in my opinion. It seems like reason is not a ah, a faithful person's friend necessarily in my apparent opinion and then finally tradition I'm going out of order because tradition. For me is probably my number 1 reason for being so preoccupied with christianity and the bible and all these things still because it is my personal tradition. It's my upbringing all of my family most of my friends are very devout christian. And even if I completely abandoned all of it and just walked away and didn't do this podcast. Didn't read the bible anymore. It's been such a big part of my life for so long I think it will forever shape my worldview and personality and knowledge base.
14:27.82
forestandtrees
And in in some ways. It's inescapable, right? because it was ah such a big part of my formative years in life and so that's why I want to try to understand it more and yeah, see what it's all about and that's also what what made me think like but maybe this is just the sunk cost fallacy of trying to salvage. All of this time that I've spent on it so that those are my quick thoughts on the 4 points of the quadrilateral.
14:58.80
Jeremy
That's an interesting skeptic that a skeptic replies to the quadrilateral I didn't I didn't get that in seminary. Yeah.
15:02.27
forestandtrees
Yeah, they do you have any any reactions to it or or do you want to just hop into the text.
15:15.17
Jeremy
So you though the one you know I think we both have the same hesitancy with scripture being placed. You know at ah elevated Sos. Ah yeah, it sounds like you and I share that in common I think you and I shared tradition in common where we both have grown up in this we you know even if we.
15:19.45
forestandtrees
M.
15:29.95
Jeremy
Even if we wanted to leave it. It's it's part of our story forever right? So there's a part of that that you have to acknowledge like yeah, that's been my journey ah experience we we've talked about numerous times on the podcast. We're Goingnna talk about that in a minute so I'll I'll just leave that one but what I would differ.
15:32.10
forestandtrees
M.
15:47.74
Jeremy
With you I think the most is on reason I would say I would not agree that reason you know is not a friend to to faith I think reason is not a friend to mainstream evangelical christianity.
15:51.24
forestandtrees
Um.
16:04.18
Jeremy
And much of the theologies that are prominent in America today I would say are not friends of reason and you know talk about the traditional view of hell which again we spent a lot of time with last week in chapter 5 but that would be 1 to me I'd say just reason that out and you get a monstrous view of god most christians.
16:23.10
forestandtrees
Um.
16:23.51
Jeremy
Don't they just accept it move on and don't ever think about that so I would agree with you in that regard. But I think there are reasonable answers and reasonable explanations and I suppose that is why you and I are both willing to do this kind of a podcast because we are reasoning this out Together. And I think each of us think that you know our our line of thought is is reasonable and able to hold up and you know we're We're kind of both testing that in real-time each week and so I think that's actually kind of cool way to to Process. We're processing through reason together to figure out what is more reasonable. And you know ultimately we get to have our own takeaways and the listeners get to have their own takeaways as well and so it's it's ah it's actually kind of cool like we're we're living out the quadrilateral in real time for this podcast whether whether we knew it or not.
17:14.90
forestandtrees
Yeah,, that's that's something I like about it and that that some people have said about it is. It's not necessarily a new way to think it's just kind of pointing out a way that we already think which I guess I would say like there's probably more than just four Categories. You could probably add a couple other. Categories in there if you wanted to but ah yeah, yeah, oh I Love that.
17:36.83
Jeremy
Well, and historically, what's interesting is you know this comes from a guy named John Wesley who lived in eighteenth century. He never coined the term wesling quaudlateral this was twentieth century. Yeah, this was like two hundred years later someone was studying the life of John Wesley
17:43.84
forestandtrees
Um, right, it wasn't going until a book later right.
17:56.60
Jeremy
And figured out. Oh he based all this on 4 things that again he didn't even articulate the way it. It is currently articulated today which I also think is kind of funny. He's like famous for this thing that he he didn't ever know about and he obviously practice it in real time but it wasn't ah it wasn't a phrase. He used.
18:07.53
forestandtrees
Sure.
18:15.16
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's like um, it's like Jesus laying out all these abstract ideas about salvation in the kingdom and then later the epistles trying to make sense and form some theology around it is that.
18:29.98
Jeremy
It's a dicey so icy take there Jeff.
18:33.96
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, Jesus wasn't a Theologian Paul was right? That's that's my theological take there. Um, okay okay Jesus theology fine all right? Well speaking of.
18:37.78
Jeremy
Jesus is theology Jeff.
18:45.81
Jeremy
Speaking of theology. What questions you got today.
18:50.28
forestandtrees
Speaking of theology and the epistles. Yeah, so let's let's not go back to basics as the author of hebrews is is urging us. Let's dive into the deeper stuff I love this in in verse 2 he says he or she he or she. The author says you don't need further instruction about baptisms the laying on of hands the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. So this is a list of presumably basic theological tenets that the author is listing and I thought one of these is not. Like the others right? baptism that seems pretty easy to understand the laying on of hands whether or not it works or not is a question but it's easy to lay ah hands and pray for someone teaching eternal judgment. We talked about eternal judgment last week but the resurrection of the dead. To me that seems like pretty advanced stuff. So I know I know within Christian theology. There's there's the final resurrection when when everyone um is raised at and the end of days. But I think they're talking about resurrection of the dead in this life like just a version of healing where you raise the dead because there are a couple instances in the new testament when people are raised from the dead Lazarus being very a very famous example and you've got all the people that came out of their graves in the book of Matthew when when Jesus Died
20:17.96
forestandtrees
And someone in the book of acts who fell out of the window and because someone was preaching too long and then they raised them from the dead and of course you hear about it sometimes from other churches saying that they do these charismatic services where people are raised from the dead and it's it's certainly not anything I've experienced personally I wonder. Jeremy what are your thoughts on the raising of the dead is this a ah practice for us today.
20:41.60
Jeremy
That was a great question the the question I think about when I was you know, just reflecting on this this week is what does death look like from god's point of view so we we approach death from our point of view and you know that's where. Death is obviously incredibly heavy. Usually you know sadness we associate with it fear you know, kind of a ominous foreboding for a lot of people of you know this is coming at some point but I don't want to think about it or talk about it. You know Ah, but from god's point of view. At least if we're gonna say okay, let's let's assume christianity is true and Jesus is who you know the the gospel writer said he is then I think we'd have to say if if that is true which again you don't have to agree with that just to to go with this logic if that is true. Then death looks very different from god's point of view than it does to us and so I think we have to say from a Christian point of view death is is very different and it's it's rather central to the christian story because you know we we choose to follow. Ah. A story about a guy who was god in the flesh who died that the god died and then god you know was raised back to life. So so that's fundamental. That's christianity 1 to 1 fundamental to the christian story is this this conquering of death so you know thinking like what what is.
22:12.10
Jeremy
What is death feel like to god like what what would god what would god's emotions. Be, you know, thinking about death and I thought about the story in John 11 and you you reference Lazarus this is this is where we see the story of of Lazarus and you know, ah, if you don't know the story jesus is is. Going to raise Lazarus back to life at this point and Story Lazarus is dead John 11 verses 33 through 35 Jesus is talking to family and you know friends of Lazarus. They're all in mourning obviously because Lazarus has died and they had appealed for Jesus to come and save Lazarus Jesus doesn't show up. And lazrus sts and and these verses you you find this when Jesus saw her weeping it says Lazarus's sister and he saw the other people wailing with her a deep anger welled up within him and he was deeply troubled now that's just an interesting first emotion. Jesus feels toward death is anger like what's he angry at well. He's not angry at Mary and the people mourning it seems that he's angry at death itself like the the effects that death has makes Jesus angry. Okay, which again I think is intriguing verse 34 says where have you put him Jesus asked them. They told him lord come and see right? He knows he's about to heal him and then one of the verses. That's most often quoted because it's short. But it's so profound verse 35 says then Jesus Wept and I find this so intriguing.
23:44.73
Jeremy
So he's just gotten angry at death then he starts weeping and you go well why and he's again if you keep reading. He's about to raise Lazarus back to life. Why I think he's weeping primarily number one as a you know. Empathetic solidarity with those who are grieving. He's meeting them where they are in their grief in their emotions. He's feeling all the things that they're feeling. He's not you know Jesus is not god from a distance this is god with us and he's weeping over it. Um. But it's not the same kind of weeping at the end of the day that we might have because this is not final for Jesus and again we talked about this last week when I was arguing why I find the universalism view of christianity the most compelling because why on earth would death get to decide anything and so. I think if if you want to follow Jesus. You have to demystify death to some degree where it cannot hold the same power that it would hold for another person if I believe that the person that I'm following who I think is god incarnate literally has beat death right. And is offering me the chance to beat death as well. Now I think that's that's one part of it then you you reference? Jeff which I think is a fair, you're not really criticizing but we'll we'll we'll tease it all ah because it is a criticism There are some crazy examples of christians today and.
25:12.77
forestandtrees
Um.
25:17.15
Jeremy
There's 1 church in particular, it's known for this and we'll we'll leave him anonymous because we're we're gonna be polite and we talked about fruits of the spirit last week so I want to practice patience and kindness right now. Jeff okay, thank you I ah I'm gonna practice so I won't I want him. But.
25:29.69
forestandtrees
It's that's very big of you jeremy.
25:35.64
Jeremy
It's not uncommon for them to to make the news when literally someone dies in their church and they like declare god is going to raise them from the dead and then they all pray about it and there's a few years ago this was a big deal and I remember lots of people were talking about it and I got asked about it a few times of hey what What do you? We know what are your thoughts on it. So I say that to go. You know what? I don't think there's anything wrong if someone dies to pray that god would raise them back to life sure I have no issue with that if you want to pray that to defy a person's death. And say we're not going to bury them. We're not going to move on. We have decided god's going to heal this person I I think takes us into a different category and I don't have a real great line to give you Jeff as to like what part is you know logical to me and what part is crazy to me I don't really know where the line is. I just think there's some tension here and I again I don't know how to perfectly draw the line of where the tension is but I think it's okay to say death is not the end all I'm a Christian I believe that god raised Jesus from the dead and god is gonna raise me from the dead. So I have no problem with that. But because of that I'm also not. Unwilling to accept a physical death. You know to my body. That's that's part of the way this goes and you know I believe that I will be resurrected again and in you know eternity in a different sense. Not just the little body so I don't hold on to the literal body and I think.
27:13.17
Jeremy
Kind of ironically some of the people who may be known for being Christians who you know defy death are really unable to accept death and accept a true resurrection in Eternity. So I don't know I don't know if if that sounds like I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. But I think there's some. Some weird middle ground here. That's probably tricky to to iron out.
27:35.69
forestandtrees
Yeah I feel like it's it's probably kind of a touchy subject for a lot of people because so like one of my like big questions about religion is like do miracles happen right? does god actually heal sick people. It's like if if he heals someone who has cancer or or makes a paralyzed person walk again or something like that. That's that's all good. You know if if that turns out to be true. That's amazing if if god can raise the dead which again it happens a couple times in the new testament. So there's biblical precedent for it. It's it's a little bit. Stranger of a concept and has some more kind of I don't know weird ethical implications like if he could raise your friend who died a day ago. Could you pray for someone who died ten years ago and he could still raise from the dead you know things like that. I don't know it's it's just like a so a strange thing to me and I feel like most christians kind of just avoid talking about it because it's weird and no one knows what to do with it. So I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on it. Yeah.
28:40.52
Jeremy
It is weird and I don't think anyone knows what to do with it. So maybe maybe that's the best summation we've got of it.
28:49.80
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, all right? Well, let's move on to ah verses 4 through 6 I'm going to read these and then talk about them so starting in verse four for it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who are once enlightened. Those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the holy spirit who have tasted the goodness of the word of god and the power of the age to come and then turn away from god it is impossible to bring such people back to repentance. So so many. Thoughts on this passage like ah like I said before this goes into the question of experience experiencing god and this passage is talking about there are people who truly experience god and turned away and. Apparently if they've turned away after all of that there's no getting them back that seems to be what hebrews is saying here and it's it's so it reminds me so much of people who would say to someone who leaves the faith. Oh you are never really a christian or. Ah, you never really had a true relationship with Jesus because if you had a true relationship then you would never leave. It's impossible to leave and in this passage is saying something a little bit different but it's a little bit similar and I also want to play clip here from.
30:18.77
forestandtrees
A a prominent pastor who had something to say on the subject. So let's listen.
30:54.48
forestandtrees
Ok, so that's a a pastor talking about people who have left and suggesting if anyone who leaves they never actually experience god right? And so this is a touchy subject for me right? because I'm someone who I think I experienced god or at least what I thought was god. Ah, back when I was a christian but also now that I don't believe god exists I'm like I don't know I guess that was just my own personal feelings. So maybe these people are correct. Maybe what I thought was god at the time was actually just. Shallow organic human emotion and it wasn't the real good stuff of the holy spirit and all the real christians out there who are still Christian are truly experiencing the holy spirit and you know it's it's possible. Maybe they're right? or maybe the author of hebrews is right. And I was experiencing the real good stuff and still turned away and now there's no hope for me at all. So that's that's my question jeremy do you think? do you think people could ever leave if they've experienced the real stuff and if they did experience real stuff and they still left. Could they ever come back.
32:09.35
Jeremy
Before we get to that if if we take that quote that you just played does this make our podcast sexy.
32:16.20
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, yeah, total thirst trap.
32:18.95
Jeremy
Okay I just I I just want to put that out for the listeners that according to the definition I just heard I I think we have a sexy podcast so I just want to let the record say so let me respond to that clip because.
32:26.53
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:35.97
Jeremy
I don't know if our listeners have heard that clip before and that that made that made the rounds for a while after that was shared um I actually am really bothered by that clip and if we weren't trying to keep this podcast somewhat family friendly. I would use some choice words to describe what I think about that theological presentation. The word that bothers me the most in the clip is the word actually because he says you know if you if you had experienced god or the I think he says Grace of god or however, he says it. Actually you know you know like really and it just reeks of pride and elitism and ego to me of we have this superior version of christianity and if you experience what we've got. You would never fall away and you know if you do fall away then you never experience it and it's it's the self you know self-repeating circular argument that I just think is incredibly not compelling and lazy and. You know reeks of all things. Not jesus to me so that's that's the pg reaction to that. So let's get to your question. Can you you know? and I think this is so good that this is a personal question to you because this has been your story and so again, you know when.
34:08.92
Jeremy
When Christians tend to talk about it. It's it's theoretical which is interesting because in Hebrew Six. It's theoretical. This is a theoretical argument and I say that because I want you to notice the tone here is a hypothetical tone. It's the it's the author is setting up an argument. But notice that no one's being accused of this like no one in the original Context. There's no church.. There's this is a theoretical hypothetical argument. The author is making as if hey, let's just consider this logic right? Which I think you you know if we read it in context which is what we're trying to do each week.
34:43.42
forestandtrees
Right? right? The the the end of so yeah I was going to say of course like the the end of 6 I was kind of saving this for later but it it plays into what you're saying here right that he's saying like I'm of course I'm not talking about you or I'm sorry verse 9 I'm sorry.
34:46.77
Jeremy
It's It's an interesting like we can say.
35:02.74
forestandtrees
Verse 9 we says even though we were talking this way. We we know it doesn't actually apply to you right? because he's talked theoretically.
35:06.42
Jeremy
Right? So he's not even saying to the readers right? So no, one's being accused of what is being claimed here. So it's almost like theoretically this thing could exist not saying you.
35:18.58
forestandtrees
But.
35:20.55
Jeremy
And I'm not even naming anyone. There's no one being accused of this in hebrews 6 Okay so like like let that you know so you go what's the author talking about then well here's what's great if you read the next 2 verses. The author's going to illustrate the point using an analogy.
35:25.37
forestandtrees
Yep.
35:37.14
Jeremy
And so again, this analogy comes right after the verses that Jeff had just read so verses 7 and 8 say this when the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer. It has god's blessing. But if a field bears thorns and thistles. It is useless the farmer will soon condemn that field. And burn. It. Okay, so this is the illustration illustrating the argument that the author just made. But here's what I want to point out if you burn a field. Yes, you have rendered it useless for a while this is not a forever. Type deal and we know this that you know you can see land that gets burned. It doesn't mean for the rest of time nothing will ever grow on that land and you know I think most of our listeners have seen this, you've seen something that's been burned and then you've seen new life emerge from that we we just intuitively understand that. So if you use the illustration that the author uses to illustrate the point. The author's making it's not a forever type of consequence. It's saying hey this is it does have a consequence but it's not gonna be an eternal consequence and so I think again, let's let the author illustrate the point that they're making he or she is making. And let's try to figure out. Okay, what's this theoretical, not even permanent condition being talked about I think what we're really logically wrestling with is weather free will is real what we're really asking and I think this is at the heart of the question.
37:13.14
Jeremy
Can I really choose something then really choose something opposite to that thing that I already chose and I have to say yes to this because I believe in free will and we've talked about free will before but free will to me is so. Critical and crucial in understanding god and understanding how god interacts with us understanding love understanding the nature of love and I think this is at its heart now here's a fun fact for you. Jeff okay, so you you applied it. But here's here's the thought I had and I've never had the slot before tells staring at this this week does the reverse also hold true. This is a question for you if you're not a believer and then you become a believer where you actually always a believer.
38:02.89
forestandtrees
I I would say no I would say like you could be someone who who didn't believe in God and then God ah appeared to them or or they discovered God or investigated religion and decided they they believed in it and they could. Could go from being an atheist to a Christian or a a believer in some other religion is that is that not right? okay.
38:24.26
Jeremy
No I agree with you but but I think it's helpful to to reverse it and go why are we I think most people go yeah Atollah you could do that? Okay, so you can do that and we have no problem saying I didn't believe in god then I did believe in god and we have that's not weird at all.
38:41.30
forestandtrees
Um.
38:42.45
Jeremy
But the moment we say I do believe in god now I don't believe in god it's like all logic breaks down. Oh we don't no, it's not real and you know christians are often the ones making this argument I would just say I don't find that compelling I would say this to you Jeff and I I'd really be curious as to your action. I think it would be incredibly again. This is my worst is you may not resonate with this or your own experience I think it would be insulting of me to say to you Jeff because you currently don't believe you were not a real believer before and here's the reality Jeff I knew you before you know i.
39:05.39
forestandtrees
Sure.
39:19.10
forestandtrees
Yeah.
39:20.92
Jeremy
I knew that version of you I know this version of you I would never in 1000000 years feel comfortable telling you yeah dude just but you know you don't believe now and that's because you never believe before like that would be a ludicrous, not only logically ludicrous but. Just relationally offensive thing for me to say to you and I I scratch my head when people like the clip that you just played are so confident and saying no one could experience this and walk away. It's almost like we think this is so good that you couldn't not choose it spoiler alert. Read John chapter 6 because toward the end of the chapter verse 66 gets to this point where people walk away from jesus they have seen Jesus heard Jesus experienced Jesus experienced miracles. You know supernatural stuff and they walk away from Jesus. And you go well, it's because they never they never experienced Jesus what? Yes, they did they they literally like the first 6 chapters. These are the people experiencing them and then a whole bunch of them walk away and if they were able to walk away from physical Jesus right in front of them. We're going to make an argument today that no one who has actually experienced christianity could ever walk away I don't I don't find it compelling.
40:44.92
forestandtrees
Yeah, they thought thank you for saying that I I appreciate your words there. The yeah, the whole you are never a real Christian line. It's a real thing that I played a clip of someone saying it publicly and of course I know people do say this too. To non-believers or to deconstructing christians or to to people who who identify as no longer believing. It's it's a thing that that christians will say to non-christians and I want to give my friends and family a ton of credit for. No one said that to me right? I was a little bit nervous to kind of come out to friends and family and tell them that my beliefs have changed and I appreciate how everyone who I know personally has been so supportive of that and and it's great I really really appreciate their support. Um. I have gotten this line really just from 1 person and it was on Instagram it was a ah dm from someone who I don't know personally after I posted this song that was kind of talking about like not knowing my purpose in life and they dm me saying hey bro your purpose is to follow Jesus. And then so I told him oh yeah, I actually used to believe that but I don't believe it anymore and he asked why not and I told him kind of some of my story and he said oh so I get it. You were never actually in a relationship with Jesus and then I actually asked. Yeah, so that's what he said and I was I was kind of taken aback because it's like oh it's this cliche thing you always hear about. But.
42:11.76
Jeremy
But.
42:20.21
forestandtrees
How It's finally happened to me so I actually asked this person is it. Okay, if I take a screenshot and share this on a story I won't show your name everything and he said yeah, that's fine and he asked like is is it. You know it was a learning a learning moment for him hopefully because he we we continued messaging a little bit. And I got a lot of people saying like Wow I can't believe someone would say that to you blah Blah Blah. So All that to say yeah it's It's happened to me exactly once and and yeah it does hurt it. It hurts my feelings. So Thank you for saying that jeremy.
42:51.40
Jeremy
And let me just plead with any Christian listening to this please don't say this to people and if nothing else you've you've had a chance to hear Jeff as a human being with real emotions and a real story and a real journey. Tell you what that feels like and if we could all just say hey even if you think yeah, you know they didn't they didn't experience what you've experienced about god let's give grace to that and say you know what? they whatever they experience. They've changed their mind and I think free will is a central tenet of. How we follow Jesus and Jesus is not coercive. God is not coercive and so I I think you have to have room to say we can choose god and we can also choose other than god and god makes space for that and you know allows room for that and so. Yeah, gosh I'm glad there's only one Jeff I mean I guess that's the encouragement of what you just shared but 1 is too many.
43:55.99
forestandtrees
Yeah, ah sorry you froze there for a second. What? what? what was that last thing you said 1 is too many? yeah yeah I but I do think that.
44:00.46
Jeremy
I said I'm glad there is only 1 but 1 is too many.
44:13.74
forestandtrees
Again to use the Buzzword of deconstruction questioning one's faith I do think it's become more normalized. Um where this podcast is certainly not the first thing to talk about questions of faith and and kind of deconstructing your faith in real-time. So I yeah I think people are becoming more self-aware and and hopefully less judgmental which which is good but speaking of of being judgmental then I have to ask the very next thought.
44:39.53
Jeremy
Here here.
44:49.47
forestandtrees
In at the end of verse 6 the author says by rejecting the son of god they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again, holding him up to public shame that this was kind of a shocking passage for me to read because. To me at least it read as very guilt trippy by saying that when you're rejecting god you're basically just nailing Jesus to the cross and putting him through that excruciating pain all over again and it's. I suspect this passage is is meant to shock and meant to get people's attention in that way. But again it it feels a little bit judgmental and guilt trippy to me. So my question is should we sinful people feel guilty for. The the resurrection sorry the the crucifixion shall we feel guilty and feel like we're nailing Jesus to the cross all over again.
45:52.41
Jeremy
I actually really appreciate your perspective here and you know you you sent me your questions earlier in the week and so I had a chance to stare at your question here and I think it's fair I think it's a fair reaction, a fair question and. I don't necessarily want to negate it and smooth it away I think it's one of those like yeah, that's a valid reaction to that verse and if I'm honest I don't really love you know verse 6 that that phrase in there as well because it does it I had the same reaction. It feels a bit guilt Trippy. So was trying to think like okay, what's the author doing here like because this does feel a little bit. What I would say and again this is this is not the saith thelore this is just Jeremy's take on this. It almost feels like the author at this at this sentence got like personally. Emotionally involved in the argument and went from a theoretical argument to like a personal wound and it feels like something shifted in this line and then it like goes back to. Okay, let let me be calm and collected and make my argument but this line almost sounds like. Like someone who's hurt talking or someone who's you know, reacting kind of like a visceral reaction and so I'll try like what's going on here like why? Why does this sentence sound different and feel different to me than the rest of it so I was thinking about okay, what what was the author.
47:23.56
Jeremy
Going through what were you know what was he or she watching what was she he or she addressing like what was the original context. Well you know we think about this today and you know Jeff you're putting yourself in. You know this this category of yeah this is applying to you but you would not have been the type of person. The author would have had in mind. Ah, what? what? I think the author has in mind here is jews you know who became Christian and then went back to judaism that would have been probably way more of the initial you know people who this is being written about people who were jewish grew up jewish that was their tradition. At some point they you know meet the apostles meet the early church and they go wow this Jesus guy is amazing and this is great and they say I'm gonna follow this now and then it like wears off or they go yeah, that wasn't what I thought it was I want to go back and they go back to judaism now here's what you think about this. Like that reality of a Jew who became a christian and then goes back to judaism would have been extra personal for our author because they are actually the antithesis of the very premise of this book right? and we've talked about this before and this is episode 0 that the book is is over and over again. The the book of hebrewbers. It's essentially saying that the old testament covenant is all leading us up to Jesus that Jesus is better than better than this better than that better than you know on and on and on and these jews who had become Christian who they went back to judaism.
48:55.63
Jeremy
Are essentially saying that the old testament covenant is better than Jesus and I think we're getting a glimpse into the humanity of the author here who's having this this emotional reaction to saying you are. By your choice proving the very opposite of what I'm trying to argue that you're saying all that is actually better than Jesus is and I don't know if I don't know if we can you know if it's heretical to say but I think the authors having a human moment here and and gets a little bit. Different tone and maybe in a calmer moment or a more objective moment would say yeah I shouldn't have said it that way or I got a little I got a little personal to me. But I think this is hitting something at the core of you know, really the. Drive behind this entire book and then what these people are doing is pinging that somehow and so that doesn't necessarily explain it away and again I can I kind of feel icky with it with you but I'm trying to give like a little bit of empathy or or a little bit of Grace. So the author going. Maybe this is really. Affecting them somehow does that make any sense.
50:08.85
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that that makes sense to put it in a context I guess you could even again, go to verse 9 and say even though we're talking this way. We don't we don't mean you um you know is ah is a way of saying like you know like if I were to say like.
50:18.41
Jeremy
Right? right.
50:25.70
forestandtrees
All evangelicals are are ignorant Trump supporters and then I'm talking from my parents and I'm saying like but not you too you you know you guys are great but everyone else everyone else is yeah yeah, all of our listeners. You know, whatever you believe you guys are great. Everyone else is terrible. Ah.
50:34.31
Jeremy
Um, but now if you listen to this podcast. You're great.
50:41.89
Jeremy
Which Verse night is weird that that is a weird what you know.
50:45.55
forestandtrees
Yeah, kind of bet. Yeah, kind of so yeah I'd say the end of verse 6 is kind of guilt trippy and verse nine is kind of back pedally that's that's my criticism of this chapter in terms of the the authors communication style.
51:02.78
Jeremy
And I think it's fair and I think you know verse 9 is either an attempt at humor or it is itself funny right? Like you're saying at ah sick and I went to to church this last weekend. It's ah you know through a message and ah.
51:04.60
forestandtrees
Yeah, right right.
51:16.52
Jeremy
The the pastor made a joke and it reminded me of this because the pastor said something that christians do like you know criticizing it and then said you know this happens at other churches. Not our church and it was the same argument. You know of like wink wink Christian suck and they do this stuff but not you guys like you.
51:24.35
forestandtrees
Um, right? yeah right.
51:36.90
Jeremy
You're better than that. But I think so yeah, again, maybe maybe we're getting some humanity of our author you know, shown through showing through the theology here but it does reinforce the hypothetical nature of a lot of these arguments. These are not.
51:43.45
forestandtrees
Right.
51:50.88
Jeremy
These are not directed at people these are hypothetical arguments that it's almost like hey we need to work through some of these ideas in case, they ever came up. You know that you'd have a framework for it. But we're not actually talking about real people or talking about things that you're struggling with which is again kind of kind of funny.
52:05.35
forestandtrees
Yeah, and just the the whole question of so like just the kind of the graphic nature of the statement of like they they themselves are nailing him to the cross and holding him up to public shame and I mean it just brings up the whole. Question of the blood atonement right? Like why? Why does god need a blood sacrifice to forgive us in the first place which which I know we've talked about before and I think we we definitely need to devote more time to to that in the future when I think there are there are verses in the future that deal more specifically with. Atonement and and what it says about the nature of god and things like that. So. So yeah, I'm I'm satisfied to to leave it there unless you have any any further thoughts.
52:49.86
Jeremy
I think it's it's worth just noting. You know as as we're working through the text these are real people writing this you know and I think if if you're a Christian listening to this and you live in the innerancy camp.
52:58.93
forestandtrees
Um.
53:07.23
Jeremy
You know of all these words are handpicked by god verses 6 and nine will be hard for you to explain because you have to say that all of these words were handpicked by god I don't hold to a literal inerancy I don't think I don't think the early church did either. I hold to you know way more of what we would know as infallibility of these ideas are used by god and you know god uses these people but that gives me room to say yeah this is this is the the humanity of the authors showing through a little bit as well and to keep that in consideration that you know god uses people and. Ah, every single person god has used has been flawed you know and we sometimes our flaws show through more than others and you know if I'm if I'm given a sermon you know I can I can say a lot of ideas that the god would resonate with to go? Yes, yes, yes, yes. But it's still gonna be my limitations and my issues and my baggage that will still shape in some way or limit or effect and god still uses it and I think that you see that even in verses like this that you know I I would like to think and maybe if you know the author of hebrews could have another go at it. They they might agree with you Jeff like yeah, that was probably not the way I should have said verse 6 and you know maybe that's sacrilege just to say that but maybe they wouldn't you know? maybe it's like no, it's exactly what I want to say and yeah god god wanted it said that way. But I also think you can have rim to go. Yeah I think that I think that that.
54:35.69
Jeremy
Argument in particular was in a very emotional argument for our author because of you know what? they're trying to the argument they're trying to to make to people and then watching people you know, live out the opposite would have been very Personal. So I Just think it's worth as we study scripture making room for the authors to be real people. Is probably a healthy thing even though it gets a little bit tricky in real time to play it out.
55:00.92
forestandtrees
Sure sure that makes sense to me the idea that the people writing the bible were writing a letter to a specific group of people. They were not writing with the intention of it being canonized for all of time. Ah it Yeah I I agree.
55:11.76
Jeremy
Right? I'm gonna be in the bible.
55:18.48
forestandtrees
I agree with that and that's that's 1 reason why I don't put all of my trust in in what the bible has to say but anyway final final thoughts and questions the whole end of the chapter is about god's oaths and and promises so I'll read. Ah, verse 17 says god also bound himself with an oath so that those who received the promise could be perfectly sure that he would never change his mind and verse 18 also just has this drops this kind of theological statement of it. It is impossible for god to lie interesting. Implications to that statement. Um, so I just I know Jeremy you've you've talked before about open theism I know you're big on that so I wanted to kind of just let you go off on that and and my question was um, how can we know? God will keep his promise if he has changed his mind. In the past I guess I'm thinking mostly of like the old new covenant also like with the flood god was sorry he made man is another prominent example. but but yeah mostly you can just talk about open theism if you want because I want to hear your thoughts.
56:27.66
Jeremy
Ah, well so yeah, we find that in these verses versus 1718 but so let's look at the argument being made here essentially in 17 It's hey we need to be sure that god won't change you know on this which implies that god can change you know god's mine.
56:35.70
forestandtrees
Um.
56:46.20
Jeremy
Right? So the the fact that we're trying to argue Hey how do we be sure on this one means that there's a a presupposition here that God can change God's mind and so we're sorry with that. But then the author says the reason we can be confident God won't change you know God's mind on this one is because God can't lie.
56:46.82
forestandtrees
Rem.
57:05.42
Jeremy
So then it adds a second layer of well how do we know? God won't well because god won't lie and god's already promised it and so you know both those things so this takes me when I was thinking about those 2 arguments god could changes mine but god won't god can't lie to the story of Hezekiah this is old testament story I know you love the old testament. Jeff.
57:22.90
forestandtrees
Oh yeah.
57:24.88
Jeremy
I'm gonna take you there on the old testament train Second king's chapter 20 is where you find this story I'm gonna paraphrase it because it's a whole It's a whole chunk of this chapter. But if our listeners want to go look this up second Kings chapter 20 in the old testament story of a king name Hezekiah I read this story and it. It broke my theology when I was like growing in my faith because I had no box to put this in now. Jeff you referenced which is another one that pinged me um you know the flood god says you know I regret that I have made humans and I remember thinking how can god experience regret.
58:04.13
Jeremy
That's a very weird thought like and it's not the only example when god makes saulking he find it in that story too that I regret that I have made soulking well how on earth can in a fully omniscient god the way I understood it have any sense of regret if god knew exactly what was going to happen then what it. What is the text trying to say it doesn't make any sense right? and all this so that already had some like heartburn over that like that doesn't really make sense but Hezekiah was the one that was like oh snap I have no theological room for this and you so let me paraphrase a story real quickly. Hezekiah King it's old ah, and and the the prophet at the time is is is isaiah big time Prophet right? Isaiah is told by god go and tell hezekiah that he's about to die he needs to put his house and his affairs in order because he will not recover. This is Hezekiah's message or isaiah's message for Hezekiah. Directly from god go tell the king put his affairs in order. He will not recover so isaiah does it goes to the palace did it does all thing right? and hey as a guy you have bad news. God said you're gonna die put your house in order. You will not recover have a good one sorry starts to walk out. Hezekiah immediately goes into this like raw emotional moment with god starts pleading with god like I'm not ready to die. You know all this like starts crying out to god have this really intense prayer before isaiah even leaves the building god's like whoa hold up by zeah. Um.
59:37.62
Jeremy
Because of what hezekiah just did his reaction to what you just said changed what I'm about to do I want you to go back. Tell him I'm gonna give him fifteen more years he will recover. And yeah I heard him so is it's gonna be good. So as it's like okay turns back around. Walk again? Oh yeah, hey head's guy. Nothing I just told you scratch it god just liked. He really liked what you just did and what you just said and so as a result you're not gonna die you got fifty more years good job and I remember reading that story and I'm like okay we got a problem here because either. God is legit changing his mind and didn't know that god was gonna do that right? like god literally thought Hezekiah was about to die and then god made it you know so that his guy was gonna have fifty more years and didn't know in advance or god lied. And god told isaiah to say that to get hezekiah to do something that god knew in advance hey you're not actually going to die I'm just saying that to you to get you to do this certain reaction here's what's crazy and I rendered this when I got ordained because I had an elder group that met with me to to vet my theology. And our only argument we got in was this story of Hezekiah because I said yeah I think god can change god's mind and they're like whoa whoa whoa. no no god doesn't do that and I brought up Hezekiah I'm like what about Hezekiah and the response I got 1 elder in particular was really strong on this. No.
01:01:11.50
Jeremy
God said that to hezekiah to get hezekiah to you know to have this reaction. So I said so god intentionally lied said something that is not true to Hezekiah to get Hezekiah wouldn't that be lying and manipulation like so that's your view of god and you know oh no, no no that that had this whole. Talk about it. So that's why I think it's interesting that here in Hebrew six you have god can change and you know change god god's mind and it's impossible of god alive which if you take the story of ezekiah and then you you use the filters we have in Hebrew six you go.
01:01:32.39
forestandtrees
Ah.
01:01:49.88
Jeremy
Okay I think we have to read that story literally and say yeah god did change god's mind and god wasn't lying de a guy and all that. Um so here's what I would say in relation to your question and again we can we can riff on this as as long as you like cause this is this is my favorite nonessential topic of theology. So I I love opentheism we can go on and on but most of the time I bore people and they're like I don't care that much about it here's what I would say is my my answer to your question. How do we know? God will keep his promise if he's changes mind before that's your question god's mind can change but god always looks like Jesus. That's my answer. God's mind can change. So god can say hey I was going to do this and now I'm going to do that instead and you find that all throughout old testament and new testament where god says things like you know if you do this then I will do that and if you do this then I will. It's all conditional language which implies god is saying I'm going to react to you if you do this I'm gonna do this if you do this I'm gonna do that and that is that is the essence of god you know, changing what was intended based on what we do which is why i. Find Jesus so compelling why I find god so compelling if you told me that nothing I could say or do would ever change the mind of god then we are essentially you know either characters in a movie or we are pawns on a chessboard that someone else is moving and.
01:03:22.70
Jeremy
We have an illusion of free will but it is not real and I just don't find any of that to be what resonates with what I find in scripture. So I think we can be confident god always looks like Jesus but god's mind can change.
01:03:36.42
forestandtrees
Yeah I I would agree that that god would have to be able to change his mind because that's the only way that prayer makes sense right? like I think um the the comedian George Carlin had had a bit about this where he talked about.
01:03:43.41
Jeremy
Totally yes.
01:03:53.96
forestandtrees
God has a plan and everything's going according to plan and he's saying like that's why you shouldn't even pray because you can't ask God to change his plan something like that right.
01:04:02.54
Jeremy
Well, But what's funny is most Christians believe that and you know if you ask a typical Christian Why Why should you pray? It's usually the the logistical answer as well because it's an act of obedience. That's why you pray. But then you know they'll say because prayer changes you That's why you pray.
01:04:17.42
forestandtrees
Um.
01:04:20.91
Jeremy
Prayer changes. You doesn't change god prisoners you well tell out to Hezekiah because Hezekiah didn't pray like that you know it changed you because god responded and he was like I got fifty more years out of that. No hezekiah. It's gonna change your heart to accept what god has for you? No, it's not.
01:04:25.39
forestandtrees
It changed him because it made him not die. It made him not dead.
01:04:37.15
forestandtrees
Yeah, like.
01:04:39.40
Jeremy
And a little I love what christians say that it's like that's not what the text says like and again we find this argument in Hebrew Six so it's not like I'm pulling 1 random old testament. You know it's like we we see that throughout god's interaction and you know even in Jesus. You know when Jesus praying in the garden of Ghsemani. What's the prayer father if it's possible. Let this cut pastor me what do you mean? if it's possible shouldn't Jesus know if it's possible, but Jesus seems to be operating under a framework with god the father like hey I know there's like. Maybe a few options here. Is there a different option that we can do and the answers like nope this on this one. We gotta do it this way. It's like okay and then Jesus submits but the prayer is an intriguing if it's possible if there's another way, let's figure out another way cause I'm not I'm not really looking forward to this way and so again I think it it totally makes sense of prayer. But it also makes a way a way more intriguing version of god that I actually want to talk to and want to relate with and gosh if I think god would legitimately respond to things that we do then? yeah. Prayer matters immensely and what we do matters and what we say matters and it just makes life so much more rich and it's so sad to me that christians are so afraid of that and they they try to gloss over and make this you know what I think is a very boring.
01:06:12.10
Jeremy
Boxed in version of god.
01:06:13.59
forestandtrees
Yeah I I guess I would say I want to believe in that God right? It's it's reminding me of a couple episodes ago when we were talking about the origin of the universe and and how do you explain it and. You know I'll I'll admit I I don't have a smart answer for this. But so if you want to say God That's fine. It could be like a deism version of God where it's some impersonal being who doesn't talk to us who doesn't answer Prayers I feel like that would line up with with the reality I see. Because I haven't seen like someone miraculously healed I haven't seen a miracle in my own life and you know to go back to the the quadrilateral.. That's my my reason and experience is making me not believe in God right now like all I would take is. Is an instance where I I see prayer work in real life. Um, but yeah I mean the the God of the bible in the in the stories I read it. It totally makes sense to me that that he changes his mind so man it's it's not.. It's not hard to wrap my head around in that sense.
01:07:33.98
Jeremy
Well Jeff my daughter is still praying for you every night that ah that you will experience god and I'll I'll admit, there's been a few nights where I've been praying with her and I have forgotten to pray for you I'll admit that to you and our listeners and my daughter will not let me finish the prayer.
01:07:46.40
forestandtrees
Wow.
01:07:52.00
Jeremy
If I forget you and she'll say dad what about Jeff say okay yes I got to pray for Jeff so although it would be bad for our podcast I do pray that that you're gonna experience that and you're gonna see something I think that would be super cool. So Adeline and I will keep praying.
01:08:05.56
forestandtrees
Yeah, oh thank? Yeah, thank you for that. Thank you to Adeline if you're listening that's that's great yeah okay yeah thank you thanks that's that's great I mean you know the this show is great, but.
01:08:11.69
Jeremy
She does listen she listens she listens with my wife.
01:08:23.31
forestandtrees
But it ain't no eternal salvation right? so.
01:08:27.62
Jeremy
Ah, you'd be willing to trade it if if you could if you could see that huh.
01:08:29.50
forestandtrees
Oh well I mean also like just you know not to be careerist. But if if I did have this dramatic conversion after being like a public skeptic and then became a Christian I mean I could sell books for the rest of my life man I would be set churches.
01:08:43.84
Jeremy
I mean maybe the podcast would blow up like just listen to this podcast we we turn atheists into christians I mean that could be big Jeff it's big money there.
01:08:48.26
forestandtrees
Churches would eat my story up. Yeah yeah, just just one more thought on the the show the way it's because I think about this all the time the way like my my personal life and my personal thoughts and feelings and the way I'm I'm. Trying to process in public by doing this podcast. It's it has made me think a lot like there's obviously a performative aspect to it right? because I need to come up with these questions but the same time doing the show like forces me to actually think about these things away more than I would Otherwise so.
01:09:22.49
Jeremy
M.
01:09:25.42
forestandtrees
What what am I trying to say here is is there a way that like I I can't like change my mind at this point because I've already you know it would be embarrassing for me to become a Christian after after doing this show I don't know it's It's all interesting. It's just things I'm thinking about that I don't have an answer to.
01:09:42.34
Jeremy
This is why I love it though because it's again, it takes it out of theory and it's a real lived experience that that you know myself and the listeners get to experience with you and get the process and as we wrestle with these huge questions of faith and. Versus that seem a bit weird at times we get to process it through real stories and you know my story and your story and the stories of Tyler and numerous others who have you know shared and those who haven't shared with us. But I think that's what makes all this so profound and so beautiful is that it's not you know god from afar. It's god. In the weeds and the messiness and and we're all trying to figure it out. We're all trying to make sense of it. We all have doubts and questions and and if nothing else you know we create a safe space together to to ask it and and figure it out and feel love wherever wherever we land.
01:10:35.87
forestandtrees
Well said jeremy yeah, we we love ah our listeners and we love people who are on either side and are questioning themselves and their faith and all of that and it's it's it's really fun getting into the weeds with you. I appreciate you indulging me. So let's wrap it up there. Thanks to everyone for listening. Ah yeah, check us out on social media. We're always trying different stuff I'm you know trying to get that algorithm to bless me. And right? please please do reach out right in Dm us if you have any thoughts or questions. We. We love to hear from our listeners and next week we'll be in chapter 7 getting into the weeds with King Priest bounty hunter melchized aek see you then.