Hebrews 5 - Hell to Pay

We take on issues of money with the Church and annihilate the concept of Hell. Also Melchizedek is the Boba Fett of the Bible.

Topics
Jeremy's Story
Money / Tithing
Melchizedek / Prophecy
Hell / Universalism
Should Christians be jerks?

Book  Recommendations
Her Gates Will Never Be Shut
That All Shall Be Saved

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Email us at ​​forestandtreespod@gmail.com
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Transcript

01:01.66
Jeremy
Hey everybody hebrews chapter 5 you're listening to the force in the trees. My name is Jeremy and always I'm here with Jeff.

01:13.12
forestandtrees
It's time to unlearn what we have learned jeremy.

01:16.57
Jeremy
Is that from Star wars.

01:18.64
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's something that Yoda says to Luke when he's turning him into agaba.

01:24.94
Jeremy
Oh oh Wow I I didn't get the reference all right? That's ah it's a little more little more nuanced and subtle today. But let's let's do some unlearning.

01:33.45
forestandtrees
Yeah I thought I thought it was good because it actually applies to um to the theme of the show and stuff. It's not just ah, a reference for reference's sake some some more than others for sure.

01:40.12
Jeremy
Ah, are are you acknowledging your other ones didn't didn't really apply.

01:47.76
Jeremy
Okay, that's fair, well today in hebrews 5 we have got a few exciting things. We've got the role of a high priest we're talking about tithing universalism whether or not it's okay for a christian to be a jerk and our theme verse for the podcast. All. Included in chapter 5 and I actually think one of the most unique verses of this chapter is verse 8 and unique in ways that we may not even ah, potentially realize verse 8 in in hebrews chapter five says this even though Jesus was god's son. He learned obedience from the things he suffered now this is an interesting verse for a number of reasons obviously talking about the suffering of Jesus which is something we've covered before that is unique to in particular the christian view of god this god that suffers for us. But the idea of Jesus learning something and learning obedience I just acknowledge is a little weird to think about and I spent quite a bit of time this week just thinking about that verse thinking what does that mean, that's just a strange idea. Ah, to imagine god in the flesh learning things which you know we find out that he does but it's just a little bit of ah, a head scratcher I think if you try to wrap your mind around what would that look like it reminds me of Luke chapter 2 verse 52 tells us that Jesus Grew in wisdom and in stature and in favor with god.

03:20.44
Jeremy
And all the people so we have this view of Jesus as god that suffers and also learns things along the way and maybe Jesus would have even listened to a podcast Jeff what do you think about that.

03:33.45
forestandtrees
Maybe he would have listened to a podcast I yeah, it's true. He's yeah, he's probably listening right now you know he's he could learn a thing or 2 from a couple of knuckleheads like us right.

03:36.21
Jeremy
Yeah I mean if he's learning obedience and he's learning wisdom and stature I don't know.

03:46.19
Jeremy
He is listening and I and I'm sure he's wondering where this is going I'm sure ooh that's that's a good topic for for another time. That's not in our verses today. So Jeff let's get to you.

03:51.87
forestandtrees
Yeah, assuming he doesn't already know the future right.

04:02.71
Jeremy
What questions do you have chapter 5

04:03.75
forestandtrees
Yeah, so right off the bat in verse one it talks about the role of the high priest as you say so I know you I don't know how comfortable you would be with claiming the title of high priest I know this is a little bit more of an old testament. Concept but I think ah I think a modern day pastor is is sort of the protestant Christian equivalent is that fair to say.

04:24.56
Jeremy
I've I've never put that on a business card. Let the record state.

04:37.97
Jeremy
So I think that's an interesting connection to make um you know there there are certain similarities. Um, but I would say pastors are not modern day high priest now I I say this as an ordained pastor. So I have I have gone through the. Ordaining credentials to to be able to say that um, but I think it's helpful. You bring up like okay what what should we think of of a high priest. Do. We attach that to a pastor verse 9 in hebrews 5 I think answers this says in this way. God qualified him Jesus as a perfect high priest. And he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him so hebrews 5 is making the argument that hey we have this whole history of high priests and again heavy old testament reference here to to what we've been talking about but then makes the statement. Jesus is qualified to be the perfect high priest which I would then suggest we don't need another one if we have a perfect high priest that is perfectly fulfilling that role. We don't need ah another one. So I'm I'm actually gonna I'm gonna make the argument Jeff I don't think pastors are modern day high priest.

05:51.50
forestandtrees
Oh okay, well okay so we'll see how this affects the way I ask this first question then so I'll quote um verse one says every high priest is a man chosen to represent other people in their dealings with god and verse four says.

05:53.79
Jeremy
Okay.

06:05.39
forestandtrees
And no one can become a high priest simply because he wants such an honor. He must be called by god for his work. Ah and it also in the chapter says that the high priests have to deal gently with the ignorant and wayward ways of their congregants. So I just want to start off the bat by saying thank you for putting up with my ignorant waywardness Jeremy I I think you're doing a great job.

06:33.88
Jeremy
I'm just trying to deal gently with you Jeff as as hebrews says great I'm doing doing a good job and.

06:36.18
forestandtrees
I Feel Yeah I feel the gentleness. It's Great. So question question for you. Do you feel like you were called and what was your. Story of the calling I know in the past you've when we've talked about whether God speaks or not, you've said that you personally haven't felt or haven't heard the voice of God So What was that like for you if if you would say you felt specifically called in or wasn't just a ah career option that you.

07:09.27
Jeremy
Sure I don't so I don't think that pastors are you know, modern day high priest but I would say I think there is something unique about the role of a pastor and I continue to be intrigued by the role and you know I continue to call myself.

07:09.61
forestandtrees
Chose for yourself.

07:26.30
Jeremy
Actually these days I don't know if you even know this Jeff but 1 of the things I I do is this ah company called communian wineco where we gather people together around wine to experience Jesus new ways and on my business card for that I actually call myself the wine pastor and. I do that because when I hand that card out every single time I hand that card out I get follow up questions like what on earth is a wine pastor and people are intrigued when I was a lead pastor and you know I'd be sitting next to someone on an airplane. They're like what do you do for work and I would say I'm pastor of a church like conversation over. No. Thanks, you know in. He's usually like an apology sorry I cussed earlier in the conversation I didn't know I was talking to a man of the cloth you know and then they're like done like they don't want anything. But if you say you're a wine pastor. Fun fact, people want to know more so I do think there's something unique about the role and I continue to operate in I guess less traditional ways of Pastor Today

08:11.61
forestandtrees
Um.

08:23.73
Jeremy
But it's interesting. You ask that question because I do have a story of that and I think most pastors do have a story of of some type of calling so. It's not a normal job in that point of view because I don't think most people you know feel called necessarily like that like to use the the language that we often use. Into other jobs but we we definitely use that that terminology whether it fit's or not when it comes to to the role of a pastor when I was growing up. My dad was a pastor and I thought was super cool and you know I was like I'm going to go do that and so from like a very young age. It was always I'm going to go grow up be like my dad do this job. And when I got to high school I started to see some of the challenges shall we say of of ministry and you know just some of stuff that he had to deal with and some of the things that you know people would say about either decisions he made or things he said and I didn't feel like it was fair to him. And you know I saw that as as his son I just remember thinking like I don't think I want to do this anymore and so going you know fast forward to my senior year I got accepted to Asu. It's going to get a business degree I was planning on making a lot of money already had my roommates I mean had everything locked down and. Our student pastor and our youth group invited me out to lunch one Day so I think it's like midway through the year my senior year and like hass this lunch with me and he's like hey um god asked something that i' either he told me that I'm supposed to tell you and I'm like okay.

09:54.73
Jeremy
And he's like you're running from your calling and ah you know it was just like super intrigued like what would you mean? I'm running from my calling. He's like you're supposed to be. You know a pastor're supposed to be a ministry and at that point I was like no, no, no, that's my dad's thing like that's not my thing and he was like yeah I know what's your dad's thing but it's also your thing and you're running from it. And you know god wants you to to embrace this and so in that lunch I adamantly didn't agree with it didn't that was not what I wanted to hear and so he I remember he just said to me hey I want you to go pray about this and just either ask god to confirm this for you or god make it clear that this is not something that he actually said right? and and so I was like all right. fair fair enough so I start praying about it and I did not hear an audible voice. But what I would say is as much peace and confirmation as probably I've ever got on anything I've ever prayed about what just this overwhelming sense of yeah like you, you need to go do this. So that was the moment I would say I was called you know to use that terminology into ministry and you know spent the next two decades going you know into church ministry ended up changing schools went to seminary did internship at a church you know in college and was often running and. I would say I I operated with a a calling you know all during that time. Fast forward to maybe four or five years ago now you know where I end up going over and taking on a lead pastor role.

11:26.18
Jeremy
And Oregon and then you know three years later I got to situation where I resigned that because I felt like I couldn't in good conscience. Do what they wanted me to do I couldn't be the kind of leader they wanted me to be and still follow true to what god had asked me to be and I would say that at that moment I I felt a release. So like if there was a call then it was like this this call and response if you will of like okay, now you don't need to do this anymore and that might sound super weird but to me I connect those 2 of I do think there was a season that god wanted me to do ah. You you know, professional, full-time ministry. However, you want to describe it and I don't necessarily feel that call anymore now I'm hesitant to share my story because I think that may not be every pastor's story. You know and and and certainly every christian story. Um, but for me, there was something always unique about that role and I felt like I had to keep doing the role until Jesus Essentially released me from that to do something else and I don't feel that same type of calling that I used to. So now these days I'm still very involved. You know I speak regularly at churches I do consulting work for churches. You know I I teach classes for up and coming pastors. So I'm very involved in the church world I just don't feel the call like I used to and so I don't know how that sounds to you. But.

12:54.20
Jeremy
Um, that's kind of been my journey.

12:55.52
forestandtrees
Yeah, thanks for sharing that that that is interesting. This is a common thing I've I've heard in the church. The idea of when people say God doesn't Necessari necessarily speak directly but he speaks through people right? The idea of of people speaking into your life. Would you. Would you consider this person who you had lunch with to be prophetic or at least in that moment God speaking through that person sort of.

13:21.20
Jeremy
I totally would and it's interesting. You say that that's the word he used in the conversation. He said to me I have the spiritual gift of prophecy now. This guy was also known he was trained as a litter like a improv comic and so I thought. Was like on the other end of a bit you know I mean like oh he's this is a setup for some joke of like okay, what's the prophecy you know and like this just wait for the shoot to drop I never did like he never There was no punchline. It was like no I really am and at that point I didn't really understand okay like this is this was way outside of my. My church tradition. You know I didn't know any any people with the gift of prophecy so I'm like what does that mean and the way he described it to me is he feels like god gives him a word to say to someone and his act of obedience is to follow through and deliver that word to that person. Um, you know. Regardous of what they do with it and so he just feels like he has to be faithful to communicate when he feels like that and evidently that wasn't the first person that he'd ever had this kind of conversation with and so again, you know our listeners may be skeptical of that and think that's manipulation or you know I certainly see could see how it would look that way but I would just tell you. You know having had 2 plus decades since that conversation to see how it played out I I do think there was something to it and I do think god used him in a profound way. So I don't know if that's how god you know works for everybody but I do think it's it's a unique phenomenon when someone comes to you.

14:55.64
Jeremy
And says hey god told me to say something to you and you you know I've had plenty of other times where people use that argument and then I pray about it and you know god's like that's BS you know I didn't say that it's like okay but I think that the more intriguing part is when it's when it resonates that's where that's where you have some explained to you of like whoa what what was that.

15:04.11
forestandtrees
The.

15:15.26
Jeremy
Like that's that's super bizarre.

15:16.21
forestandtrees
Yeah I'm trying to think of any times when people have like spoken words over me I think I remember a time in youth group when like a more charismatic person came in and spoke these prophetic words over everyone. And we were all kind of laughing at them because they said hallelujah every other word and it just became like a running a running thing but from what I remember I think they said something about a van and seeing a van in my future which I did. Purchase a 97 Ford Arrow star a couple years ago and I had dreams of living out of it that that never came to fruition. So maybe maybe I miss my calling there. Maybe there's still a van for me in the future or ah.

15:59.70
Jeremy
Did do you so own the vanner to get rid of it. Oh you spoiled the prophecy.

16:04.39
forestandtrees
I Got rid of it. Yeah, it's it's true. It's true I got we were my wife and I were moving across country and it it broke down right before we moved and I felt like that was the sign that it was time to get rid of it instead of.

16:20.50
Jeremy
That was when God released you from your from your calling to the van.

16:22.40
forestandtrees
Fixing it or yeah, maybe I Really only went camping in it like once overnight anyway. So maybe that's still in the future or or maybe it was a false prophet who's to say.

16:34.51
Jeremy
Well so you would say that story was not credible right.

16:38.92
forestandtrees
Yeah I don't I don't it was just I was just trying to think of an example of has this ever happened to me I've I've heard stories like this from a lot of other people where where people speak prophetically over them. Yeah I Honestly I don't yeah take this person from my youth group. That's seriously I mean I have no idea like what their credentials are um, not not that you can be a accredited specifically as a prophet anyway. But you know I mean that it'll be interesting like I'll I'll keep my eyes open for for Van life in the future.

17:15.70
Jeremy
I've got to laugh if years from now you have some profound experience in a van and you go back and listen to this episode and you're like it was there all along I could I just tried to fight it.

17:21.13
forestandtrees
Oh yeah.

17:27.99
forestandtrees
It's true. It's true and I gave up years of Productive Van Ministry I was I was like Jonah running away from god's van yeah it it does sound cool.

17:36.61
Jeremy
Yeah, it's just a van he just he wanted you in the van. That's awesome.

17:43.55
forestandtrees
Sound cool all right? Ah so another question from verse 1 the second half of it says he presents their gifts to god talking about the high priest and offers sacrifices for their sins. So again I realize this is a bit of a non. Non perfect parallel between old and new testament. Um, the the high priest dealing with people's sacrifices which I think there's more verses that talk more specifically about animal sacrifice later on in the book. So we can talk about that more later I want to ask you more about. The concept of dealing with people's sacrifices. It's making me think of modern times and people donating money to the church. So this is a hot topic I'm I'm certainly not the first person to take issue with the idea of of how it is. How what responsibility does the church have in dealing with the donations they receive to talk a little bit about my origin story I used to work at a church and add. More and more kind of conflicting feelings about it and this was actually the final straw for me where I had finally decided I just don't feel comfortable participating in this right now I was a graphic designer at the church and we had a.

19:14.24
forestandtrees
Financial series coming up which I had done graphics for financial series before but now that I was questioning all these things I just couldn't stomach the idea of the type of language churches tend to use when they say um, your donations are giving money directly to god. Right? something I Always think of is churches will use the line God doesn't need your money and I always wish churches would say God doesn't need your money but we do right like I thought I thought that would be a more honest way of of communicating.

19:37.46
Jeremy
And.

19:51.52
forestandtrees
Their need for donations because I'm not against um nonprofit companies or anyone really asking for money I think you know I've I've donated to Npr Wikipedia all kinds of um charities through the years right? like that's that's not a bad thing in itself. But I just think the language the churches use when they say your tithes go directly to god is very problematic for me and I wonder if if you feel the same way or if you think I'm being overly critical with that.

20:24.25
Jeremy
I do feel the same way and this has been a tension point even when I was in full-time ministry because I didn't necessarily see it the way most pastors see it or most christians see it. For example I would say. Um, let's begin with the idea of tithing which is the way most christians talk about you know, giving to a church here's a fun fact. Jeff nowhere in the new testament. Do. We have any examples of the church tithing. We have no examples of christians tithing in in the bible. Okay. You're going well wait. What yeah, there's none like literally none. Ah the the examples that we use is 1 conversation jesus had with a pharisee. So. It's a jewish religious leader about the covenant they were in and it's in even in the past tense of like here's what you should have done in this you know covenant. Um, not talking to a christian not talking to someone who has decided to give their life to Jesus post you know crucifixion and resurrection. None of that applies then we often go to like Malachi you know which is old testament test me and this says the lord and pastors love that verse and. All these things I would say are old covenant. These are all old covenant models and um, you go? Okay so what happens after Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection you have wild generosity in the early church and it's.

21:56.11
Jeremy
Full in the book of acts and for corinthians and all these places like huge generosity, beautiful generosity. But there's no percentage ever given on it and you know the only time it really gets weird is when people are lying about how generous they are and then they end up dropping dead and you know and and i. Fired so. It's a kind of bizarre story. Um, but you have no example of of christians being instructed to tithe to their church or them ever doing so I would point this out to other pastors and it would never go anywhere and I remember seeking like ah. I'm not sure what to do with this and so it got to this place where when you know when I was an executive pastor. Ah who you know I was also filling in the pulpit I just had to say hey I I can't teach tithing and good conscience. So if that is required in that message I can't be the one to teach that message. And then when I became a lead pastor I had to tell the elder board when they hired me like fy I'm not going to teach tithing I'll teach generosity which I did but I just wouldn't teach tithing now. That's the first part. So let's just acknowledge that and some of our Christian listeners are maybe a little feeling a little heartburn right now like. Well, what do we do with that so that's a whole in our topic we can get.

23:10.69
forestandtrees
Or maybe thinking like wait. So I didn't have to be giving 10% of my income this whole time.

23:17.62
Jeremy
You I don't think you do um and honestly if it's you know, giving from the heart and it's you know needs based it will often be far more than 10 percent. You know I think just the 10% thing is such an old testament way of thinking and it totally misses the spirit.

23:29.83
forestandtrees
Um.

23:34.68
Jeremy
What I see in the new testament. So let's start there. Okay so some of you need to just you just pause the podcast go for a walk pull your car over get some fresh air. Go get a drink I don't know what you're doing if you're working out put the weights down just give yourself a second. Okay now.

23:50.23
forestandtrees
It It really depends on which which end of the spectrum people are landing right? Whether this is good news or bad news. You're giving them jeremy.

23:52.44
Jeremy
I Think we also have to acknowledge.

23:59.30
Jeremy
That that's true with a lot of stuff that we give on this podcast. It could be good news or bad news depending on where you're at now to your other part of the question you know is it as simple as giving to the church equals giving to God I'm gonna say no, it's not that simple.

24:03.93
forestandtrees
Yeah.

24:12.29
forestandtrees
Um.

24:16.91
Jeremy
And I say that as an insider I don't say that you know throwing rocks at other churches or throwing rocks at pastors I say that as someone who deeply loves the local church but I I do not think it's I think the language I would agree with you I think the language we use is problematic that we say hey if you give. X amount of dollars to this nonprofit entity local church. You are giving that money to god now part of the challenge is I've had to manage church budgets of millions of dollars I have seen where all this money goes I've had to oftentimes be the 1 deciding where the money goes or or influencing where the money goes. Here's the reality most churches, the majority of their salary or the majority of their budget goes to pay their pastoral salaries or just their their staff salaries. Okay, so and that's not just for every church but most churches. Ah, more than 50% is is not uncommon that you would have more than 50% of your annual budget is going to pay staff so just acknowledge that and be aware of that now there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Just be mindful of that's where most of the money is going the second next biggest chunk. Is usually the buildings and the mortgages and the stuff that goes into the buildings. Um, if your church has a production budget and and does moving lights and video cameras and all that their production budget is probably way bigger than you have any idea like oftentimes millions and millions of dollars. Um.

25:49.88
Jeremy
So I was that's the second area then the third area is usually what we think of when we think of giving to the church which is the ministry dollars or the money that's given away or you know that because of that in my experience at least is is a smaller makeup now I don't say that with an indictment on the church of. There's this great scandal I don't I would just suggest for our pastors listening to this that you be more upfront of where the money is going and so here's a way I think a church could say it and I as you know a person that has. My own issues with some of this language would not have issues with this. So for example, um, you could say something like this your money allows us to do ministry in this way and you could reference the weekend service you could reference an event. You. Do you can reference whatever like hey the way we're doing ministry your money your you're giving allows us to this. If you find value in this please give generously to allow us to keep doing it and again I think a lot of people would be like sweet I do love it. I love the weekend service I love this event I love this, whatever and would gladly keep giving to it and what I think it would do is it would. It would give people who go I I don't want to give to moving lights I don't want to give to bigger worship centers. It would give them an an honest out without shame or guilt to say that's actually not something I want to put my money in and I would just be really candid at this point in my life.

27:24.70
Jeremy
That's not something I want to give a lot of my money to anymore I have given much of my income to that over my career but these days that's not where I find my passion to invest you know our our generosity and so if if a church is more direct of this is what your money goes to. I think that's much more honest and I'd be curious Jeff if you heard a church doing that and let's say that I'm gonna put you on the spot. You're back in. You're contracted to do the financial graphics for a series. But rather than the the language that was used that you referenced the language is used this way. Hey here's what here's how we're doing ministry if you believe in it you know your dollars will allow us to keep doing it would you have less heartburn with that kind of communication or do you think it would still just the the act of you know, soliciting.

27:57.10
forestandtrees
Um.

28:14.68
Jeremy
Funds with it still rub you wrong.

28:17.15
forestandtrees
Yeah, absolutely I I think I would be comfortable with that I'm I'm not sure if I if I would work at a church right now. Um, where where I'm at. But yeah at the time when I was communicating with the leadership that that kind of was what I put forward I was. Was contracting for them at the time and I said I kind of gave them a couple options was like 1 was just is there a way that I could just not do the graphics for this series. Could you get someone else to do it and I can continue to work with you in the future or I could just kind of cut ties with you now or could you. I don't I don'm not sure what I so I don't know what my demands were like could you guarantee transparency I needed in writing I don't know but you know this was a church where I I'd heard them use the language I I already described before and you know I guess i. Honestly, just didn't feel like there was any chance at all that I was going to speak into what they were going to say from stage and that wasn't really my place to either I wasn't a teaching pastor or anything there. But yeah I would say that I'd agree with what you're saying I'm all for transparency. Um, you know I I think there probably are churches out there that are better at this than others. Um, there probably are churches where they open it up and allow people to see specifically where the money is going and even to designate where where you want it to go to.

29:52.00
forestandtrees
I think the church I worked at even had an option where you could say like I want this money specifically to go to overseas missions instead of to production budget or whatever. Um, yeah, but you know like like I said like I understand that we you know we live in a society. Jeremy and we need money to make things happen. So I don't think it's wrong for churches to ask for money in general like I said it's kind of the specific language of equating giving to the church equals giving to god was was what really rubbed me the wrong way.

30:27.49
Jeremy
And I think that's what's most intriguing about this conversation is you know someone? who's maybe getting defensive by this conversation or you know is is in the church might be thinking hey this is just not fair. You know, but I think what we're both suggesting is not that you can't ask for money or even encourage it.

30:29.53
forestandtrees
Um.

30:47.15
Jeremy
We're just saying that there's there should be a level of transparency that is often missing in the conversation and I think it ultimately goes back to the idea of spiritual authority that a more old school way of thinking is the church is the authority on where your dollars go so shut up and. Get your checkbook Out. You know I mean like you don't have any right to to say I don't want this to go to Production. You should just give and entrust the church to that I think that's where that's that's the history of that. How we got here the challenge with that I would say is there's just been way too much Abuse. You know in in the church that I would just I would be very uncomfortable with any church environment saying hey you just need to trust us Blindly, you know we're not gonna tell you where it's going. We're not gonna give you saying it how we decide to spend it is is you know all Supreme I would feel very uncomfortable with that and I don't think it needs to be like that and so. I Think this might be a really good thing that the church is having to work through and having to figure this out. But I Just you know I know in some of my conversations with pastors I've I've had this conversation where I've said hey I think you should say it like this and I've asked them would you be uncomfortable saying that from the stage and you know recently I had someone say no. Would be totally comfortable describing giving like that and so it was it was Cool. It was like a win like oh like you feel like you can still ask for what you need and you can do it with integrity and I feel like you're far more you know, genuine and authentic in how you're asking for it.

32:07.50
forestandtrees
Um.

32:20.70
Jeremy
And so then I don't have you know any negative reaction. So I really think there's an opportunity here. That's probably very misunderstood in church circles by a lot of people.

32:31.23
forestandtrees
Yeah I've I've even heard other um other Christian ministries kind of point out this this hypocrisy with churches like if they if they make a big deal about where the tithe money goes like if you say um, it's going to this charity to. Pour back into the community community something like that. Um, pointing out like well what percentage is actually going to those charitable portions of the of the budget right? Ah the I guess I should lay my cards on the table here too to say that.

32:57.18
Jeremy
Right.

33:06.80
forestandtrees
Even though I don't work for a church currently many years of my life that was my career was was being a graphic designer at a church and I always felt pretty conflicted about it. The thought of like I criticized church in my in my mind at least I criticize churches for having a production budget right? and I am. Directly benefiting from that right? most churches do not have the budget to have a full time graphic designer on staff and I really enjoyed my job and I thought this is a great job I really enjoy being a graphic designer but I feel a little bit icky about the the whole financial.

33:26.89
Jeremy
And.

33:44.65
forestandtrees
Scenario in that sense.

33:45.52
Jeremy
And that's where again I think I think the the win is just you know, release some of the weird language that that's worked for a long time maybe and just call people to your method of ministry and again the people who love it will give to it like if even if it's.

33:56.29
forestandtrees
Um.

34:05.46
Jeremy
You know we kind of picking on production budgets. But if they love that experience and they think hey this is the environment. You know for me to bring a friend to and because you have moving lights and these giant screens I feel more comfortable then great. They're going to be the ones very comfortable giving money to that and so I think that's fine, but just. You know, be more transparent rather than you know some archaic we are the ultimate authority of where your money goes I think we have to acknowledge in the current culture with these nonprofits and millions of dollars on the line. It's it's more complicated than you know we often want to use it and so. Moral of the story giving to the church isn't the same as giving to god.

34:46.90
forestandtrees
Yeah, and the just 1 more thing about the lights in fog I know we're going long on this but I always think about that with the the lights and fog aspect of megachurches. You know it seems so so shallow andly to me if I'm being honest but I don't know. I I must confess I feel conflicted about it because if I go to a concert right? like let's say go see radiohead in concert and they have way more lights in fog than any megachurch I would not be critical of them I would say man that was an amazing experience. I loved it. But for some reason when I go to a megachurch and I see the lights in fog I just roll my eyes at it and think this is an abomination. So.

35:29.57
Jeremy
Well, but I think the difference is when you buy a ticket to radiohead you buy a ticket knowing what you're about to experience and you're paying for that like hey I want to go experience the lights and the sound and all of that and and you're paying for it and you know you're paying for it right.

35:37.19
forestandtrees
Um.

35:41.40
forestandtrees
Right.

35:46.67
Jeremy
But when you go to church I Think the reality is not everyone wants to pay for moving lights at a church and not everyone would agree that that's how a church should be doing it and that's where I think the miss is so again, let people you know, contribute financially to the things that they go. Yeah, this is I Really like this ministry I Think it's very valuable and they'll give to it and.

35:52.16
forestandtrees
Um.

36:06.40
Jeremy
Stop guilting them or trying to shame them if they look at your model and go. That's not the way I want to you know invest in the church I want to do it differently and I think there's gotta be room for that. You know and ah and also just a sense of there is no percentage if you go off the new testament. There's no. You know you could give 5 % joyfully and that might be what god is calling you to give you could also give 50% and that might be what god's calling you to give and anything in between and you see all those kind of examples in the new testament. So I think this is one. I think it will change in the church because it's gonna have to change because I think more and more people are gonna have a negative reaction to this conversation and so I hope any pastors listening to this or you know anyone who's on a staff or has influence can lean in and hopefully do it.

36:40.31
forestandtrees
Yeah.

36:56.42
forestandtrees
Yeah, transparency preach it Jeremy so I don't know about you Jeremy but when I wake up in the morning all I need is a little bit of coffee and a whole lot of milk is a deck which lee.

36:56.71
Jeremy
In a healthier way. Good. It's good stuff.

37:15.87
forestandtrees
But.

37:15.97
Jeremy
I didn't know where you're going with that sentence I didn't I didn't know if there was another Star Wars quote come in. But but yeah, you landed it with melizededek you that that that seems fitting.

37:27.45
forestandtrees
Yeah, he's ah he's an interesting figure I think I think chapter 7 talks a little bit more about him but we get a little tease in chapter 6 sorry chapter 5 verse six says. Ah you are a priest forever in the order of melchizedadeek. 10 and god designated him to be a high priest in the order of Mel Isadeek so cards on table again before we did this podcast and I started doing a deep dive on the book of hebrews even though I considered myself kind of a bible nerd I didn't even remember anything about Mel Hasadeek I knew the name but I was it was kind of a who is milk is a dickck again. So did some research about it seems to be a very open to interpretation figure right? He he meets Abraham in the old testament and it's like is it a premonition of Jesus is it some kind of prophecy fulfilled is it an actual. Pre new testament incarnation and you can tell me your your theories of course but I just want to ask you in general about this whole concept of old testament events full leading to old times and prophecies I should say. Being fulfilled by Jesus in the new testament and the criticisms that I've been exploring more recently of the bible claiming that new testament writers are writing things this way on purpose to make those connections of.

38:59.17
forestandtrees
The old testament prophecies are fulfilled by Jesus you see this throughout the gospels and the epistles right? where it says this connects to this and Jesus is the fulfillment of all of these prophecies thoughts on that.

39:15.12
Jeremy
What I don't know why you can't figure out melizedekck Jack Jeff it's so simple so clear. The bible is clear. Did you not know that the bible is clear Jeff Mel is duck is bizarre. Let's just get it out there. It's bizarre.

39:20.35
forestandtrees
Oh I was spiritually dull remember.

39:34.12
Jeremy
I I am reminded of our conversation last week in last week we talking about Hebrew chapter 4 and if you recall one of the questions you asked was is the bible really that deep I'm gonna actually say I think this is an example. Where we've tried to make it too deep and we've tried to get all all you know literary and linguistic and poetic and we're going to do these really cool things with this at its base level here's what I would say. Melchizededek was a unique priest different than all the other priests I think that's the essence of the point the author is trying to make Jesus is also a unique priest unlike any other priest I really don't think it's that much more complicated but we make it way more complicated and. You know I was reading some commentaries this week on it and it's so funny. How everyone just disagrees with everyone else or there's like no even consensus on what the hell is going on with Melizedadeek nobody knows we're gonna argue argue argue and you know, but we're gonna put all this weight behind you. Make sure you understand him and you know again, we're gonna see him chapter 7 ah, but I just want to say I think we just have to say yeah this one's weird and we don't really know and scholars don't really know and I think the point is he was unique. Jesus is unique.

41:08.47
Jeremy
There We we made a point now you're you're.

41:09.44
forestandtrees
Would you say sorry what? So would you say it's fair to say Mel Isedek is the bo be effect of the biblical universe in the sense of well.

41:18.50
Jeremy
O the bobifa but with that out of a big deal. Don't you think.

41:25.92
forestandtrees
He he is now because there's a whole show about him. But the reason is because he only shows up for like 2 scenes in the original trilogy right? and people just there. There's fandom grows around him people love his character his costume design people write comic books about him. They make jango fet in the prequels. And now he's got a whole show be on Disney plus because the fans demanded it right? But originally he was just kind of a side character. He has 2 or 3 lines in the whole original trilogy.

41:55.55
Jeremy
You know Jeff you you've won me over Boba fat is milk is aek I'm a believer it makes it makes sense. Yeah, okay as you explain it I would a hundred percent agree but kids like has a couple lines a.

42:01.91
forestandtrees
Mystery solved. Yeah, he cloned himself and in the old testament and that's that's the kill at conception.

42:15.56
Jeremy
Um, fan fiction you know is written about him and now he's in the new testament and he's in you know Hebrews and we're talking about him and Jesus and it's like what happened that escalated quickly. So yeah, okay so so makisadeekck is well with that. We got that to your.

42:28.50
forestandtrees
Yeah.

42:31.10
Jeremy
Your underlying question though is is a great one and it's one we've we've hinted at and I think anybody who has studied this has to has to admit, yes, the new testament writers take great liberties with the old testament. There's numerous examples of this and here's. Here's the kicker if you're like whoa whoa. No that can't be that makes me uncomfortable buckle up because so does Jesus like that's where they got it from like Jesus was the one who took dramatic liberties with the old testament when he talked about sabbath we talked about that previously. He just like reinvents it and talks about it's like something that works for him pure going that is not at all what sabbath was about and it's not at all right? but Jesus is reinterpreting it and I would say if you put your faith in Jesus. And you say Jesus is god in the flesh the exact representation as we saw in chapter one of of what god looks like then Jesus has every right to do it every right? and so especially if you know as my theory has been all along that the real. Bizarre anti- Jesus looking stuff in the old testament that there's something else going on and we have to reinterpret that in light of Jesus that is the same idea because this is how Jesus said like it's all about him now again, we've mentioned this before but this is where I think.

44:02.61
Jeremy
Go back to how did Jesus explain this John chapter 5 verses 39 through forty. He's talking to jewish religious leaders who knew the old testament with it. They don't call it that that's what we know of the old testament. They knew it well he says this you search the scriptures okay old testament to us. Because you think they give you eternal life but the scriptures point to me I can't even tell you what an offensive line that would have been to the jews in that day saying how dare you say all of this points to you. And then he says yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life. So Jesus' ' smack talk is you are going to the scriptures the old testament trying to find life in it not realizing they all point to me and where you're actually gonna find life is in me so I would suggest. If we want to read the bible today. We have to do the same thing we have to take all the scriptures and decide. We're not going to find our life in the bible now I say this because many christians try to find their life in the bible. You're not going to find your life in the bible. That's what Jesus says and many christians. Also. Try to read the bible and come up with countering theories right? I get questions all the time of well what about what Paul said or you know what about what this you know Isaiah said you submit all of it to Jesus like none of them get to rival Jesus' ' voice and then ultimately we choose.

45:36.49
Jeremy
As a christian to find our life in the person of Jesus in which all of these scriptures point us. So do the new testament writers craft an air to make jesus fulfillment a hundred percent they do because that is Jesus's thesis statement. It is all about him anyway and so it's whatever degree would say that's a stretch Jesus would probably say yeah they misunderstood the original intent because all of it is pointing to Jesus.

46:06.72
forestandtrees
Wow. So yeah I like that answer because I I think that's a fun thing to do now right is to take biblical passages and make connections to the modern day like when you were talking about that. It made me think of. People who want to say well Jesus actually like advocated for women you know Jesus was was a liberal feminist because there's like 4 women in the new testament right? like you can count them on one hand and like it always bothers me when when people say stuff like that because I'm like I don't think the bible is is as. Pro feminist as you think it is but I like that you're taking it there right? like I think it's a good thing on balance or are you following my logic here or am i.

46:55.35
Jeremy
I do but I I guess I would say I am in the camp that thinks it that Jesus was more progressive on that issue than we give him credit for um, you know his ministry was funded by women that we have that in the text that is a radical statement for.

47:03.92
forestandtrees
Mm.

47:12.92
Jeremy
The greatest Rabbi ever to be funded by women. You're like that's a crazy detail. Ah first first witnesses to the resurrection women if you were going to write this story. You would not write it that way you wouldn't I mean especially in that culture. You would not have your.

47:22.47
forestandtrees
E.

47:32.93
Jeremy
The credibility of your first witnesses be women because women were not viewed very credible and yet those are the first preachers or women talking about hey Jesus isn't dead anymore. I mean there's just things like that that I think yeah Jesus was way ahead of his time. Still operating. You know within an ancient near east culture still operating within ancient judaism. So. It's not today's culture and he's not you know he's he's not you know, leading the metoo movement back then right? so we had to put it in context. But I think if you put it in context. He's incredibly progressive in that. So.

48:05.98
forestandtrees
Um.

48:11.98
Jeremy
I think there's some balance there maybe of giving credit where credits do but also keeping it. You know a lot of times I'll say this is how where I resonate with that. There's things I wish Jesus would have said more of and I you know I think oh if they would have asked him this he would have really gone off you know.

48:24.99
forestandtrees
Um.

48:31.47
forestandtrees
Yeah, right and I don't again I don't want to argue with you about the like Christian feminist movement because I think that's that's a good thing right? like to like allow women to be pastors and like believe that women are equal to men.

48:31.69
Jeremy
Um, but you know it it's It's my own issue I gotta deal with I guess.

48:51.40
forestandtrees
And all those things so I'm I'm happy that people are are taking that interpretation I suppose the dark side of this potentially is all the end time prophecies that we find in the new testament and all the predictions of of rapture and um the apocalypse that that people. Take little scraps from the bible and run with it and build a whole eschatology around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right? Well, let's see if we can. We can prove text this next one in verse 9 it says this way.

49:11.85
Jeremy
Here proof texting. So it's a favorite hobby of many.

49:28.73
forestandtrees
God qualified him as a perfect high priest and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him so we're on the issue of salvation. It's a pretty big deal and we we've talked about this a little bit. And Jeremy I feel like I've heard you say things like god will eventually redeem all people which made me want to ask you? The question. Are you a universalist.

50:00.84
Jeremy
How dare you try to pigeonhole me like that. So well too late I've I've been on the list already. Um, so I Okay so let me give you a little story to set up my answer.

50:02.94
forestandtrees
Yeah I'm I'm getting you blacklisted.

50:17.49
Jeremy
I was raised with a very what I will call traditional view of salvation and unfortunately when we say salvation what we're really talking about is what's your view of hell because your view of hell you know is is usually married to whatever concept of salvation. You have of how how is god going to save this and what happens to those who don't get saved right? So I grew up with a view that's traditional which is commonly referred to as eternal conscious torment that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth literal punishment for eternity. For all those who are not saved. That's what I that's kind of the view I was raising that's to be the most christians have today. It's why we call it the traditional view. It's not traditional in the sense that the church has always believed that it is traditional in the sense that it is the current most common view in our culture which is important to understand as I got older. And got into college and got into you know some more theology I started reading other people outside of my tradition and found out Jeff that's only 1 view that there are other views of hell and other views of salvation that I didn't really know about growing up even growing up in the church I was unaware of and so. I would say that that the traditional view if you put it into 1 word is often called infernalism which sounds like what you think it's people burning right? Infernal infernalism eternal conscious storm. That's a traditional view. But then I learned there's there's been three views.

51:50.12
Jeremy
Catch us. There's been three views at the historic orthodox church throughout the last two thousand years and all different cultures around the world at least 3 views that that christians have held about salvation and hell and and they often you know fall into one of these 3 categories 1 is infernalism. Number 2 is a word called annihilationism this is often referred to as soul sleep by by other people. Annihilationism is the idea that at death if you're not part of salvation if you're not gonna be saved. You just cease to exist so you truly die. You do not go on. To eternity and you know that that's the end of it now as I got into you know, but not it was this was out of college. Um I started having a really hard time with infernalism and the reason I had a hard time is it doesn't look like Jesus to me at all. Like this idea of oh yeah, if you didn't choose Jesus. You know he's gonna burn you. It reminds me of this meme. You've probably seen this Jeff it's it's very common. But um I hope I can I can paint a picture for our listeners. Ah, you know there's there's this like stereotypical white Jesus knocking at a door. And he says please let me in and the person on the other end says you know why he's like so I can save you. It's like the person on the other side says save me from what and Jesus says from what I'll do to you if you don't let me in and you know I always love that little meme because it's like that's the circular logic right.

53:20.52
forestandtrees
Um.

53:24.41
Jeremy
We need Jesus to save us from what from Jesus because Jesus is gonna kill you if you you know and torture you for eternity and it's just like I I can't get there so then I learned about annihilationism and I was like oh I like this because this looks more like Jesus to me that now people don't have to suffer. For all eternity you know for us to be saved I like that view a lot and you know people in the annihilationism camp would say that the consequence of your decision is eternal, not the duration of your experience right? So you're eternally dead but you're not eternally suffering so that would be the difference. And ah, again never had heard about annihilationism growing up as a kid didn't even know was on the table as an option I lapped it up as soon as I discovered it then kept going Jeff it's always dangerous if you keep going you keep reading and you keep asking questions kept going.

54:20.61
forestandtrees
Um.

54:22.83
Jeremy
And I started dipping my toe in the third camp which is known as universal universalism or universal reconciliation or there's you know, different words for all of these but that's the idea at least in Christian circles. Not that all roads lead to god. Which is generic universalism but Christian universalism would be the idea that Jesus is going to save everyone so it's still Jesus all based through Jesus but the idea that no one's outside of the scope of what Jesus gonna do now here's what I would say for as I started studying that I got to place where I i. This is like a whole trajectory of my life I emotionally wanted that to be true. But I I intellectually and theologically couldn't make sense of it for the longest time. So my heart wanted Jesus to save everyone like I felt like yeah shouldn't that be. Everyone's heart like wouldn't we want every if. If there's gonna be saving to be done wouldn't we want everyone to be saved and wouldn't that be the most Christian desire is that Jesus would save everyone so like even if you theologically can't get there should not at least be like what you hope would be true and you know I just kept reading and kept you know and. Rob Bell was the first to really make a cultural argument for this and his book love wins and if you were in christian circles at that time you saw how everybody lost their ever loving mind over that book and I read that book and I remember thinking I don't have any issue with Rob.

55:49.11
forestandtrees
Um.

55:55.82
Jeremy
I just didn't find his argument in the book compelling at least at that stage in my journey and so I read it and I was like yeah I'm not you know I'm not bothered by anything he says here I just I don't think it makes more sense than annihilationism. But I kept reading kept studying you know all this and there were 2 books in particular and and maybe we can put these on the. Podcast link 2 books in particular that were transformative for me one is by Bradley Gir Za called that her her gates will never be closed I think is is the name of that book and he talks about these 3 different views and. He talks about all the verses that there are and how there are verses that would lend to each of the views and so wherever you land on this as a christian you make a ah you know I'm team infernalism all day long great but you still have to wrestle with there are are verses that sound like annihilationism and there are verses that sound like universalism and vice versa wherever you land. There are verses that you know, kind of open all his doors well in in jurz's book he he essentially walks you through How do you make sense of all of these and and and what do we do with that then I read a book by a professor named David Bentley Hart called that all shall be saved. And it it sealed the deal for me Jeff it pushed me over the edge and this book is so good and I my only caution with recommending it is. He's an academic the book's a little heady and so ah.

57:30.56
Jeremy
It's probably not what you want to read right before bedtime unless you're looking for a book as a sleep aid. There's a lot here but I want to read there's two quotes I want to read out of the book that I just think are so good and I'll read them slow so that our listeners can process because dbh is dropping some bombs here right. So here's way he talks about evil and sin I really was compelled the way he talked about he said this evil and sin are always accidental conditions of human nature never intrinsic qualities. All evil is the privation of an original goodness and so. The sinfulness that separates rational creatures from god is only a disease corrupting and disabling the will robbing it of its true rational freedom and thus is a disorder that must ultimately be purged from human nature in its entirety. Even if needs be by hell. Okay, so so good theology so he's saying think about sin and and what sin has led to this concept of evil as a disease that has corrupted us so what does a good god do if his creation. Has has been diseased by something at some point he's going to remove the disease and Hart's argument is that when you have that disease removed from you. Your free will is fully functioning at that point and you would choose what's best for you.

59:06.68
Jeremy
Which is you would choose god and the reason we don't is because he again to use this terminology our our free will has been hijacked or been corrupted right? So the way we think about it has has been already skewed by all this and then he even leaves room for a concept of hell. But it's a redemptive concept of hell. So it's not a punitive. It would be a refining fire right? which is something you start finding in some of these verses that we always think they're consuming fires what if they're redemptive fires and all of a sudden now hell becomes another tool for god to use us. You know to to use this whole thing to redeem us. And so he he says that but 1 of my favorite just this is so good. 1 of my favorite quotes comes from the conclusion and you got to realize this is a this is a a mainstream. Ah you know spiritual professor that you know has has. All academic scrutiny all religious scrutiny and he writes in his in his closing with so much snark and I just love his Tony takes here. He says this custom dictates and prudence advises that here in closing I wax gracefully disingenuous. And declare that I am uncertain in my conclusions and that I offer them only hesitantly that I entirely understand the views of those that take the opposite side of the argument and that I fully respect contrary opinions on these matters. So we say here's what I'm supposed to say in my position.

01:00:42.97
Jeremy
I'm supposed to say look this is just my view and the opposite view is just as good and everybody else who disagrees with me is just as right as I am this is this I find however, whether on account of principle or of pride that I am simply unable to do this. Just love the the transparency of like yeah I'm not going to say that and you know his publishers reading this like oh no right? I'm not going to say that I believe I am obeying my conscience in refusing to lie about my convictions more to the point though. I believe that I am obeying my conscience with a special rigor in rejecting the majority view that there is a hell of eternal torment since I am fairly sure and they catch this line which is a beauty and on this line that it must be a wicked thing. To give 1 ne's intellectual assent to something one cannot help but find morally repugnant all so good. It must be a wicked thing. To give your intellectual assent to something you find morally repugnant I realized when I read that I have spent years giving my intellectual assent to something I found morally repugnant and I decided to stop and I said you know what.

01:02:14.80
Jeremy
I'm going to stop thinking I can imagine a better more loving Jesus than the one that I actually think is real I'm actually going to believe Jesus is that good and so I have found that there is plenty of room within the orthodox christian tradition. No matter what John Piper and John Mcarthur say there is room within the the traditions of those who've gone before us to believe that Jesus can in fact, save everyone and I would submit this then I'll stop talking because I'm getting super passionate and I just keep going I'll submit this okay is it not the most Christian thing to believe. That Jesus was the one that actually beat death conquered death instead what the traditional eternal conscious torment view says that if you don't get your act together by the time you die death wins death seals your fate you were out of time Jesus you're you're outside Jesus' ' grasp so sorry for you I'm sorry that is not a Christian understanding of death if I believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead which I do literally believe and conquer death and is beyond death then why on earth would death have any say in my fate. That is contrary to what Jesus would ultimately want and so I choose to believe that Jesus is as good as I suspect he is based on what I have found in the scriptures and what I have seen in real life and I stand here.

01:03:49.79
forestandtrees
Louder for the people in the back Jeremy beautiful, beautiful. Ah I I also recently read that all shall be saved by David Bentley Heartt and I agree with everything you said I I really enjoyed his snark I will admit. Probably a lot of it went over my head because he uses a lot of $10 words and stuff. But yeah I I really enjoyed his rhetoric his sense of self-confidence was something I I completely cannot relate to I feel the opposite of that way I feel.

01:04:13.30
Jeremy
There's a lot of big words.

01:04:24.99
Jeremy
Ah, that's because neither one of us are as smart as he is.

01:04:28.19
forestandtrees
Yeah, completely uncertain in in almost everything. Um, but yeah I loved how as ah to use your word snarky and dismissive. He was of the infernalists. He reminded me a little bit of. Christopher Hitchens in a way like the the inverse of christopher ridgeins in this way he has this incredibly colorful vocabulary but also this very sarcastic self-confidence that was um, yeah, a joy to read. But yeah I agree with you lots lots of big words.

01:04:45.93
Jeremy
He.

01:05:04.77
forestandtrees
In there. Um and something that he he talked about a lot was I sense that he was angry at the infernalists or or shaming them for being um, sadistic right? and saying like.

01:05:15.66
Jeremy
Oh.

01:05:24.15
forestandtrees
He he had a lot of lines about like well this um this theory of universalism is going to be unpopular people are going to hate me for it and it's because those people want there to be hell right? and I I understand his criticism there because I agree that hell is just. Unconscionably awful as a concept and it's it's just it's kind of unfathomable to me the idea that children are being taught this systematically I I was a child I was taught this the the idea of how completely captured my imagination. It was all I could think about for times in my life and it's. I know it completely has traumatized people and it's it's an awful thing I think churches should abandon the doctrine. Um, but anyway to to stick up for the universalist sorry to stick up for the infernalist a little bit I think there's a lot of people who wish hell wasn't a thing. Right? I think there's people who are like I don't like the idea of hell but the bible teaches it so we have to teach it because it would be irresponsible not to and that that was the camp I was in for a long time when I was a Christian was i. You know universalism seems great. It kind of seems too good to be true I understand the argument um from how you can make those passages say universalism but I wonder what if you share David Bentley Hart's position that.

01:06:55.31
forestandtrees
People want there to be hell and that's why Universalism is so controversial or or if people are if everybody doesn't like hell but people think it's it's has to be taught because it's true.

01:07:09.11
Jeremy
That's a really interesting question I would I would think there are some people that would be in the camp that you you mentioned. However, the moment you discover the other views of hell you can't keep claiming that because now you're choosing that view over these other views. Right? And all the views are represented in Scripture. So I think that's where you have to acknowledge that if you if you know of all these other views and you continually go back to that. Um, that's where I would say you know I have an issue with that I think and this is.

01:07:36.55
forestandtrees
Ah.

01:07:42.98
Jeremy
This is one of the most discouraging things I discovered in my time in ministry I think the reason why we keep teaching infernalism is because there is a sense of I have done it the right way I should have more of a reward than those who haven't. I've spent my life following Jesus or I have given up this or that or you know I have earned something and the very notion that everybody might somehow be redeemed makes a lot of christians feel as if they lost something which illustrates. You have a crappy view of Jesus and if Jesus is not enough for you that you need other people to burn forever for you to be good with god I would encourage you to to do some heartwork and talk to Jesus about that because that's not. At all what Jesus looks like. So if you you are needing people to burn forever for you to feel good about what you have with Jesus you have fundamentally missed something and this is where I would say um I have empathy to a point with infernalists. Because I again I was raising it I didn't I didn't know any different. So if if that's you know the person we're talking about sure like okay you you may not have known this. You may have only heard this but time to grow up you you just you know if you're listening to this podcast. You just heard 2 other views time to do some research time to do.

01:09:15.28
Jeremy
Deep dive you know, read those 2 books I mentioned and you know and if you still say yeah, but I have to believe it. You don't have to believe it you choose to believe it and I choose to believe in Jesus saving everyone because it looks the most like Jesus to me. And it's the most consistent thing now I acknowledge there are there are verses that make it sound like these other views and I could be wrong. But I'm going to be wrong going out believing the most Jesus looking theology I can imagine. And I'm not going to die believing 1 thing of Jesus and secretly hoping he was better than that like that doesn't make any sense I'm going to believe use the phrase you know, sounds too good to be true. Jesus is too good to be true in the sense of it's always he's always exceeding expectations by nature. It's it. Jesus is the embodiment of all that is good. So yes, Grace at its very core is too good to be true wait I get all of this and I didn't deserve. It. Yes, like this is fundamental christianity one to one and I think your reaction is a real honest wrestling with it up. It feels too good to be true. It is. To good to be true. Universal is too go to be true, but it is true. That's that that's the kicker with Jesus it feels too good to be true, but it really is that good and anything less falls short of who Jesus is.

01:10:40.64
forestandtrees
Yeah that's that's beautifully said it. It reminds me of what David Bentley heart would say to someone who's says there're a hopeful universalist. He. He's again, very dismissive of those people because he says basically what you're saying is you think your morality is. Better than god's morality something to that effect. He's saying so if you think yeah if you're a hopeful universalist. You may as well just cross all the way over and say you are a universalist because god is is greater than you could possibly hope for him to be.

01:11:01.16
Jeremy
Great.

01:11:15.40
Jeremy
Well and you're saying you could you could imagine a better God than the one that exists which is like that's pretty presumptuous.

01:11:18.20
forestandtrees
Yeah, you could write. You could imagine though I think I mean almost anyone could imagine a religion that doesn't involve hell right? like wouldn't that be a.

01:11:31.20
Jeremy
Sure but then but but then we I think that that is the you know the point like if you can imagine something way better than why are we believing something that falls so short of that like and again if you told me hey this is how God is.

01:11:43.93
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

01:11:49.26
Jeremy
Like I wouldn't want to follow that kind of God I wouldn't want to give my life to that kind of God like this sadistic Bloodthirsty needs revenge needs to to be punitive like that's worse than the worst dictator. We've seen on Earth and and here's the reality you get this in like okay so we're talking theoretical theology you get into like real life.

01:11:51.98
forestandtrees
Um.

01:12:09.50
Jeremy
And real lives and it gets so dark so fast. So here's just 1 case in point I can easily show the absurdity of when you apply infernalism. So if I hold to infernalism and we look at some of the most horrific things done throughout history.

01:12:13.74
forestandtrees
Um.

01:12:27.75
Jeremy
Just to compare them right? We we probably would go to Nazi Germany 1 of the darkest times of history that most of us can think about. Okay, so let's compare that like what did hitler do like yeah that's that's pretty close to hell on earth you know like that as as dark as we might be able to picture. We would go. Yeah, that. That's a good portrayal of like hell and evil and all of that here's the irony if you are an infernalist all those jews who Hitler killed technically weren't following Jesus and according to your theology now they're gonna be punished forever by Jesus so. Hitler was just the warm up act to what god's gonna do them and I find that repulsive so this is why I'm with heart of like I can't go. Yeah there's merit to that. No, that's repulsive that Hitler's the warm up act for what god's gonna do for all eternity. No I I will no longer give my intellectual assent to that because I find it morally repugnant.

01:13:33.65
forestandtrees
Yeah I couldn't agree more. Ah, it's It's like I already said it's kind of mind boggling to me that hell is a mainstream idea right? It's it's too bad to be true. It's too horrific and awful. But it's.

01:13:51.31
forestandtrees
At least at least as far as I'm aware. It's kind of the mainstream conception of things and yeah I don't even know what to say it's It's horrifying.

01:14:01.35
Jeremy
The good news is you don't have to believe it. You're you're welcome I was talking to listeners. But yes.

01:14:06.38
forestandtrees
Oh well. Thank thank you for that I appreciate it? Yeah um, okay sorry I know we're going super long. So Do you do you believe in that conception of hell of um, it could be a temporary. Burning off the Sin period like I think of it like when you're making smoes and you've got some marshmallow goo on the stick you got to stick it in the fire to burn all that old marshmallow goo off is is that what hell's like and how long does it last and how long will I be there.

01:14:23.79
Jeremy
Yeah.

01:14:36.58
Jeremy
Wow, you're dropping some hot analogies on the pod today First boba fat now smores who? Ah yeah I think that um I think that will be the case and I would even go so far to say it may not be a pleasant experience right? So like. I don't know what the what the iron in the fire feels with the the marshmallow burning off it. But it's probably getting a little toasty in there. But the point is it's a redeeming for your good fire. Not a punitive you should have done better fire and that is to me is consistent with the character and the person of Jesus and so.

01:14:58.29
forestandtrees
Fifth I.

01:15:12.80
Jeremy
I Do think if you have decided your whole life. You know I want nothing to do with God and you know you've spent your life trying to go the opposite direction. There will be a hell type experience for you. But it's not punitive. It's redemptive. It's God meeting you where you are. Helping you on a journey to ultimately Ridge you of the disease of Sin and Evil and allow your free will to to Blossom in its entirety.

01:15:39.59
forestandtrees
Not punitive redemptive. Yeah, that's that's beautifully said that's you know one of the major logical problems with with infernalism for me is it's if it's eternal punishment. There's no redemption. So what? what purpose does it serve all right? Well so let's.

01:15:41.75
Jeremy
Me.

01:15:54.10
Jeremy
Correct. Yeah.

01:15:58.83
forestandtrees
Let's end it on. We talked about David Bentley Hart using harsh language and I would say the author of hebrews at times uses harsh language with his audience. So we finally arrived at our core verse ah verse 11 there is much more we would like to say about this but it is difficult to explain, especially since you are spiritually dull and don't seem to listen so I'm I'm feeling it I'm I'm feeling duller by the second.

01:16:24.63
Jeremy
Mmm so good.

01:16:33.78
forestandtrees
And he goes on to talk about. You know you guys you guys are acting like babies. You need the milk you you can't handle solid food. What's the matter with you people feel like I'm preaching to ah a room full of toddlers here and I have to say it reminded me a little bit of. Some of these toxic leaders I think about people like Mark Trescoll and Jordan Peterson people who so who are saying these young men need to clean their rooms and grow up and get a job and start a family and stop. Ah. Sucking at the teat of mother's milk so to speak and it's um, it's right there in the bible right? Ah, you could say Jesus only spelled harshly to the pharisees. But here in hebrews. The author is talking to other believers. So. To pay you a compliment Jeremy I think you have been an incredibly kind person when speaking to me in your pastoral role every time we get on to make an episode. We chat a little bit before we even start recording. And I've noticed that every single time you offer me encouragement and pay me a compliment you have ah a very generous spirit. So I wonder what you think about passages like this where people in pastoral roles are using more of this.

01:17:59.87
forestandtrees
Harsh language in their preaching.

01:18:03.98
Jeremy
Making me blush I appreciate that those are very kind words. It's an interesting question because as you point out there. There seems to be some snark but you know I think I think we're talking in um in some nuance here. Because you know you reference Mark Driscoll you know his his famous line is you know and he said it often. But you know, um I want to go old testament on those people you know I want to just you know, go guns abblazing and essentially dismiss all that I've seen in Jesus. And you know revert back to some barbaric time where I could say what I want or do what I want to you? Um, and I think that's the problem is can we can we look like Jesus and what we're saying and I think there's room there you know Jesus is not the. The white american you know with a perm holding a little lamb everywhere. He went. That's not a an accurate you know view I think Jesus went up against the strongest leaders you know of his day and went toe to toe and had some snark and had sarcasm at times and. Um, and wasn't always you know rainbows and butterflies and so I think you have to acknowledge that as well to me, it comes down to do I look like Jesus in what I'm saying and how I'm saying it and you know, ah when I hear someone else who's professing faith in Jesus. Do they look like Jesus and what they're.

01:19:29.57
Jeremy
Saying and how they're saying it and a great litmus test for me is you know the fruits of the spirit. This is Galatians 27 through 23 but the holy spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives. Love joy peace patience kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness. And self-control the people that you mentioned earlier I would not attribute to most of those words, right? So I don't I don't listen to them and go all all those fruits of spirit are just radiating off of you and so I think to me do you look like Jesus and again not the. Not the timid holding little lamb Jesus but do you look like Jesus like fundamentally I believe that you love people and you know are putting others before you and are you know are humble and there's love and there's joy and there's peace and there's patience. There's kindness. There's goodness and faithfulness gentleness and stuff like do I see all these things in you. And if yes then I'm fine with the snark I'm fine with the sarcasm and I think that is ultimate thing but here's what I would say and this is true for a lot of the preachers I see that have huge platforms if I see you and I hear the way you talk and it doesn't look like Jesus. I find out about your personal life something that doesn't look like Jesus I'm not all that interested in your theology because that theology is what created this version of Christian that you have become and so if the end result is a product that doesn't look like Jesus I'm not interested and.

01:21:05.23
Jeremy
I'll keep this vague but I remember a story one of my mentors once told me of another pastor. Um that you know he was on the polar opposite spectrum on theologically and they're in the same city and you know they would always get pitted against each other. And 1 time I you know I said to him like hey have you guys ever actually sat down and talked or like is it just you know everybody pitting you online. He said? Yeah we had lunch 1 time and and I said oh what was that about and he said he invited me out to lunch and so I went and you know basically this other leader was saying hey I just want to give you a heads up. Of you know what? I'm gonna say about you from the pulpit this weekend and you know he was trying my mentor had just released a book and so he was like I'm gonna try to get you know your book banned I'm try to get you fired from your publisher try get you fired from your church try I mean all these like literally try to like fundamentally take them down. And it was giving him the christian courtesy of telling himm in advance like hey before I do it I just want to tell you to your face and you know I asked my mentor I was like what what do you say to that and he's like I said to him like if that's what you feel you got to do like go do it. You know. All like I did it went up the next weekend and all this and all that and launched into all and you know that story alone I thought if if all I knew were just that exchange and you know my mentor didn't didn't get up and say anything like just kind of let it go and like well if people want to believe that they can believe that and I thought.

01:22:37.79
Jeremy
If all I knew was that story I'd be really interested in 1 of your theologies like and really not interested in the other one this other guy if that's how he lives out his faith I don't really want to know all his views about god because they they look like garbage in in real life and so I think when you see someone who. Doesn't look loving who is abusive verbally or emotionally or abuses power or abuses I mean I would just say yeah that they don't look like Jesus to me I think you take a moment and you pause to go what theology got them there and that's really hard to do. And you know we all fall sure we you know I'm not I'm not above my my issues and my moments where I go yeah, that was not free of the spirit. But then I take a step back and go what's what's producing this in my life. Why am I angry in a way that is not Christ -like you know and I have to reflect on that like what's. Going on and try to address it because there should be this sense of consistency and so I think there's there's this spectrum where and I would say you know even what the the examples you mentioned in hebrews. It's not um, this is not extreme anger or hate or abuse at all. It's just kind of snarky language and I think you know you do find that all over the place in scripture. There's some snarky language being used and I think sometimes that's okay and you know there are sometimes where you need to use an adult word because normal words don't seem to be adequate for the job and I think there's room for that.

01:24:12.32
Jeremy
You know and even in christianity to look like Jesus but ultimately are the fruit of the spirit evident or is the fruit evident in our life. That's where I think is the the bigger thing and with so many of these examples I don't think it is.

01:24:28.73
forestandtrees
Fruit of the spirit. Yeah I think that could probably we could probably apply that principle to maybe all of the topics. We talked about I guess maybe financial transparency isn't explicitly a fruit of the spirit but you know I think it applies.

01:24:44.72
Jeremy
Can be faithfulness. Yeah.

01:24:48.60
forestandtrees
Faithfulness. Yeah, that's true. Well yeah, that was a a beautiful answer. Ah I think um yeah I think that's a ah, good place to end it. Ah, let's see think no.

01:25:08.40
forestandtrees
Okay, ah that was the wrong music and we're gonna hit it here. Well thanks for sharing your thoughts on everything Jeremy thank you for talking to me like an adult and not like a little whiny baby and. There is much more we have to talk about but it's difficult to explain because I'm spiritually dull and don't seem to listen but we'll get to it in chapter six next week