Hebrews 4 - Rest and the Origin of the Universe

We get a little sleepy as we talk about divine rest. Jef dares to question if God is indeed all powerful, if the Bible is even that deep, and pontificates on the origins of the universe.

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Is the Big Band the Best Explanation?

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Transcript

01:01.75
Jeremy
Hello again, our friends we are back. This is Jeremy and as always joined by my illustrious co-host. Mr. Jeff Kane

01:12.32
forestandtrees
Don't try to frighten us with your sorcer as ways Jeremy your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes. Ah.

01:22.18
Jeremy
Wow these these quotes are getting weirder. We are continuing Jeff's quotes of the star wars saga and they're getting more and more bizarre as we go, we are in hebrews chapter 4 today we are talking about the sabbath. And salvation and the bible and something I'm gonna argue Jeff that I think most christians get totally wrong. So if you're listening today and you're a christian we're gonna find out if you're in that category. But I do want to acknowledge Jeff and I have been feeling the love. Lately we are blown away by you guys and what you have shared with us and the emails and the reviews we're getting seriously blow us away. We started this podcast like we said more for us to try to figure out. Let's work through our own issues together theologically and and faith and all that. And maybe it'll be beneficial and so far we're hearing from a number of you that this is really resonating with you and it's been helpful in your own journey and so today we're gonna share a few of those comments with you that we just thought were super cool and again this is why. Why we're doing it why we're really loving this and so I want to start by reading something that Rebecca sent us she said I've listened to episode 0 and and hebrews 1 episodes and I'm enjoying the conversation. My background I grew up in a Baptist Church until I graduated high school.

02:52.46
Jeremy
Then started attending nondenominational churches I went to a bible college in Joplin for 2 years along the way I've tried to say true to my childhood faith while also challenging that same faith to grow as an adult at this season in my life I feel like I'm the person in the middle I'm not a hundred percent of skeptic but I'm gonna not 100% convinced of all the bible lessons I've been taught through my life. All that to say this podcast and the questions being presented are similar ones I've asked myself. It's also opening up my mind to so many more questions Jeff and Jeremy are authentic in their podcast. They hit the hard questions up front. And share from their heart. They also actually dive into scripture and analyze the verses. It reminds me of a typical night at a small group except with the small group of people who are willing to wear their heart on their sleeves who are snarky skeptic, optimistic realist compassionate. And truly just want to understand the bible and how it impacts their daily lives hoping there's an opportunity to submit questions that could be incorporated in a follow-up episode if you choose to do a podcast summer every 5 episodes or so or so to answer follow-up questions. Let me know I always enjoy podcasts. That incorporate listener questions and comments keep up the authenticity gentlemen. It's refreshing and appreciated. Wow.

04:12.37
forestandtrees
Wow! Thank you so much Rebecca that's amazing it. It warms our hearts for sure.

04:20.62
Jeremy
That seriously is super cool because I think Jeff and I both relate to Rebecca's perspective and I love that she says she she's listening to this. She's recognizing we're addressing her questions but then she says she has more questions I love that.

04:35.95
forestandtrees
Yeah, we're we're probably going to run out any day now right? Jeremy there's only so many questions one can ask.

04:40.78
Jeremy
I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's going to happen Jeff I think that's the way life works you you start to to dig deeper and you you see how deep the rabbit hole goes and I love that and I love you know when you're growing up christianity can seem so simple.

04:54.13
forestandtrees
Um.

04:58.70
Jeremy
And you get older and you're like oh this is more complicated than I thought and then you get deeper and deeper into it and you go Holy Cow I could spend the rest of my life trying to figure this out.

05:08.78
forestandtrees
Yeah I I love what Rebecca said about how it reminds her of a small group um or bible study except you're actually able to be your authentic self and ask whatever questions you want that was part of the germ of the idea when I was thinking of this show a lot of it stem from. Being in actual bible studies and small groups and stuff at church and thinking you can ask certain questions. Maybe you can ask whatever question you want but you always at the end of the night have to kind of settle for certain answers and sometimes I felt. Unsatisfied by those answers that I was supposed to um, feel satisfied with and I really appreciate that other people have a similar feeling to that.

05:51.68
Jeremy
We are we are 2 people who are not not easily quenched by the answers that a lot of people give and so what we're finding is we're not alone. There's a number of you out there and some of you have felt alone and you're realizing you're not alone and you've got people and I think that's super cool. That this podcast is bringing bringing the questions together and the the questioners together and trying to figure out how do we make sense of this. So super glad that Rebecca is a part of this and and any of you that can relate with what she shared.

06:26.13
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, and to to speak to her last point about questions. Um the answer is yes we are open to your questions you can email us or or message us on social media wherever you can find us we we love to hear feedback like this. We'd love to address listener questions. I don't know if we're going to do what which he suggested of every 5 episodes but we have been talking about doing some kind of a mail bag. Ask us anything q and a type episode. So yeah, keep sending your questions in and we'll hopefully gather them and build some kind of show around that that'd be really great.

06:58.20
Jeremy
Totally and I just encourage you guys if this is resonating with you please share it with some other people that you think might resonate with them who might be in your circle who maybe you found some people who you can talk with about these kind of things and. We'd love for this conversation to include more people who want to wrestle through this stuff together. So that's super encouraging for us and just makes us more excited each week to to dive into this content.

07:26.76
forestandtrees
Yeah, well shall we dive in then Jeremy okay, okay, so um, I'm just going to read the first 3 verses here of hebrews chapter four because they're all around this central theme of rest all right.

07:30.40
Jeremy
Let's go I Thought you'd never ask.

07:42.63
forestandtrees
God's promise of entering his rest still stands so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it for this good news that god has prepared his rest has been announced to us just as it was to them but it did them no good because they didn't share the faith of those who listen to god for only we who believe. Can enter his rest so the whole chapter is talking about rest right? and man what a thought that sounds very refreshing I'm I'm always tired I'm always needing to take a nap. Um, but something tells me has a little bit. More to it than just physical rest. So I'm interpreting this to mean some form of salvation or union with god but but you can tell me if I'm wrong there and here's my first question ah in these verses. It seems to suggest. Some people will not be able to enter god's rest verse three quotes psalm Ninety five Eleven it says they will never enter my place of rest. What are your thoughts on this jeremy.

08:55.38
Jeremy
Let's talk about rest I've got 5 kids you give up rest when you're when you're a parent of young kids. So I also relate and I suspect a number of our listeners can relate as well. We we read chapters like this and we we go. What. What is it talking about and how do I get more of that. So let's talk about rest now here's my here's my hot take I do not think this is referring to salvation. So let's let's keep this in context of what what is the author doing what's the author developing and that's what we've been doing obviously through this series and you know. Gives us time going chapter by chapter to keep things in in context, the context here is the the people in the old testament. The ancient israelites and the parallel is the promise land right? that that they were that they were getting invited into the promised land but not all of them got it and so. God's intent if you know this story and this is what's being referenced here is that god was trying to get Israel into the promised land but because of their disobedience not all of the people made it there so that's literally the parallel here is this promised land god desired them to experience the promised land. They didn't want to follow god they didn't want to trust god so not all of them made it to the promised land the modern day parallel then would be god's inviting the church today to experience something and the same thing might happen that not all of us are gonna experience it because we are not all gonna trust him as well. Now here's.

10:25.29
Jeremy
Here's the hot take right? So let's get down what what is the author of hebrews talking about what what's the context of rest here. Well I think the key to understanding this is actually in verse 8 so Jeff just read the first 3 if you jump down to verse 8 it says this now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest. Again, talking about the story of the israelites god would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come now. Huge look behind the curtain here of what are we actually talking about what what is this rest and the author says that Joshua wasn't able. To give the people rest. Why is that significant because what did they have under the time of joshua they had the literal sabbath day it was established they they practice it. They had it and here the author is saying that that if Joshua had succeeded in giving them rest. Ah god wouldn't have had to talk about something else and so here what we know is they're not talking about a literal a literal sabbath day right? and so that's where a lot of people go oh this is a this is an instruction for us to go and experience sabbath which if you don't know that that is a literal day of rest and. Not the way that christians have kind of morphed it. It's really the way the the jews today practice this which is sundown to sundown. You know it is like you. You don't do anything you shut everything off and you really go you know off the grid and and off of all your normal routines now. Fast forward.

11:57.89
Jeremy
What do we find in Jesus. Okay, so this is this again is this is the author using some old testament imagery here. But let's make it make sense in light of Jesus like we do with all of these things Jesus redefined sabbath for us. So if we want to follow Jesus Today. We can look to see what did Jesus do with this and how do how do we and understand it. And I think Paul explains this really easily in colossians 2 verses 16 and 17 paul says this. So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink or for not celebrating certain holy days or new new moon ceremonies or. Sabbaths now again for Paul to say this to a jewish audience or with any juice in the room is incredibly like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Don't let anyone judge you for not celebrating the sabbath now if you don't know. Ah, failure to properly celebrate the sabbath in the old testament was punishable by death literally death penalty if you didn't follow us and then now you have Paul saying don't let anyone judge you if you don't do it but they dont know verse 17 what he says next for these rules. All things just mentioned. are only shadows of the reality yet to come. and Christ himself is that reality this is this is huge Paul say look don't let anyone judge you if you don't do the sabbath these are only shadows of the reality yet to come

13:31.22
Jeremy
And so what we see here both in hebrew chapter four and elsewhere in the new testament with the new testament writers is that sabbath was a glimpse a shadow to use Paul's language here of a type of rest that god has for us an experience that god has for us and so again. I would say this is not in in salvation sense. This is experiencing Jesus in such a way that we connect and in a get a deeper kind of rest out of it. So today here's what I would say for christians to say I'm going to literally try and follow the sabbath. It seems a bit silly to me to go back to the shadow when what was making the shadow has been revealed to you which is this is how we are are to experience Jesus? We are defined a deeper sense of rest I love the way that Tom Fuller says this. We now have a sabbath rest this doesn't mean the literal sabbath day as practiced by the jews but a sabbath life a sabbath day isn't bad. It's a good principle but the sabbath day was a picture a shadow. Of the rest from works that we have because Jesus has finished the work of gaining righteousness for us and so Tom is is arguing here that there this is a way we experience who Jesus is and this goes back to what we were talking about last week Jeff that it is.

15:03.59
Jeremy
Finished it is fulfilled right? We're not continuing to do all the work of the old covenant that Jesus has already accomplished so when you experience Jesus there should be to use Tom's phrase a sabbath life type experience that you have with it and so I would suggest. That that is what is being referenced here that that hey the israelites in the old testament. They got a glimpse of it. They got a day but if you have seen Jesus that this should be a defining aspect of your life that you are you are realizing how good Jesus is. And that just provides a natural rest and and sense of relief from the things that you would carry otherwise and so I always get a little bit sad when I hear Christian talk about oh we we practice our our sabbath today and I just want to say it's it's way way bigger than that like Jesus wants you to. Fully experience the staff that was just a shadow to prime the pump to get you warmed up for the main show and again this is something we've been seeing all through hebrews that the past has led to something better and Jeff Today we have a sabbath life.

16:15.19
forestandtrees
Interesting, interesting theory jeremy are are you saying that are but let me try to summarize what I'm hearing and you can tell me if I'm misinterpreting your words here. So are you saying that because of this this juice we get from Jesus. It's it's kind of a spiritual caffeine and we don't need the day off, you don't need the physical rest because you get this spiritual rest within yourself and are energized in some way or or am I still am I still caught up in this old testament thinking.

16:53.14
Jeremy
You're you're close I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with taking a day off but don't spiritualize that anymore once Jesus has provided something bigger. What I would say is to anyone who says I follow Jesus I think the question is am I experiencing. A deep rest in my soul because of that pursuit of Jesus and if the answer is no then like some of the ancient israelites you have not yet entered the promised land that Jesus has for you again. These are all you know metaphors to explain something bigger which is. When you fully see the goodness of Jesus and this is this is something that I've said elsewhere I don't think christians fully see how good Jesus is like Jesus is better than we tend to to speak of him and so I believe when you fully see Jesus how good. There is a natural lifting an anxiety that goes away if you will a weight that goes away. Whatever word you want to use that you go wow I experience something in my life now that I could not have if I did not put my faith in Jesus. So if you want to take a day off. That's great I would just encourage you don't spiritualize it anymore. Because that's a shadow of what Jesus has for you.

18:06.67
forestandtrees
So so Christians out there at least the real ones are are more relaxed and at peace with life and and less uptight than the rest of us right.

18:19.73
Jeremy
Um, christians should be Jeff they should be the ones that are not have not entered into the promised land of rest yet which there was an entire generation of ancient israelites that didn't experience it.

18:24.13
forestandtrees
And if they're not then they're not real christians. Right? I mean it seems this is this is getting into the dicey territoryritor of judging others on on their spiritual walk isn't it to me. Okay.

18:38.20
Jeremy
No I'm not I'm not saying who's experienced it and who hasn't I'm explaining a concept that we find in hebrews that that there was another day of rest to come and the other new testament authors say that's how we should experience Christ and so I'm just saying.

18:46.26
forestandtrees
Um.

18:56.32
Jeremy
I leave it to each individual's own judgment say would you describe your connection with Jesus like that and if yes, great, you're you've experienced it and if not, you haven't fully tapped into the experience Jesus has for you.

19:10.70
forestandtrees
Okay, right right.

19:13.27
Jeremy
But again, this is not I'm not using salvation language here, not whosan or who's out I'm saying more of do you want to experience Jesus like that and if you're not this is your invitation.

19:26.59
forestandtrees
Yeah, so it's so just to reiterate again. It's it's kind of a spiritual fulfillment. Um that you'll feel within yourself so it it is rest in this life in that sense because it's not about the afterlife but it's not about the. Physical rest so much of I'm taking a day off all right? Well that that leads us in to my next question for verse 4 references genesis 2 2 on the seventh day god had finished his work of creation.

19:43.48
Jeremy
Sure yeah.

20:02.41
forestandtrees
So he rested from all of his work so this is ah a very strange concept that a lot of us probably take it for granted at this point because we've all heard the story of creation before or many of us have I suppose the idea that even the lord rested. And I've I've always understood this theologically to me and of course god is all powerful. He doesn't actually need to rest right? But the the way most um sermons I've heard have interpreted. This is just say that god chose to take a day off and rest. You know whether you think it's a. Ah, literal 24 hour day or or whatever you think that means he chose to take a day off and rest to set an example for the rest of us to take proper rest all right? So I think that's an interesting idea I find that that compelling it's it's kind of an example of of god stooping down to our level. In that way. But here's here's kind of a wild. Definitely heretical thought for you jeremy does the bible actually say anywhere that god is all powerful I was thinking about this and and looking through some scriptures. Um this week when I was. Searching for an answer to this question is it possible that with the gargantuan task of creating the world and the universe and everything god actually found some limit to his power and actually needed to take a rest and.

21:36.17
forestandtrees
As I was thinking about this more and more I thought about how this could actually answer so many of the classic theological questions like the problem of evil and the problem of divine hiddenness and why does God seem to not answer our prayers. Sometimes if you believe God is powerful and the creator of all but not. All powerful can't literally do everything ah it it makes the him taking a rest to make more literal Sense. So What do you think about that.

22:03.68
Jeremy
So if you compare the genesis creation narrative with some of the other ancient near east creation narratives of other religions in particular like the babylonian version. There's a lot of Parallels. There's also some things that are very different. 1 of them and a lot of the other versions god is tired or the gods are tired when they do it and so a lot of creation narratives. The reason god or gods make people is to create workers because god's tired god doesn't want to do it all and so god creates workers. So then you have this. Ah, this israelite god come around who is very different than all the other ancientary east gods in this regard where not only does this god not create humans for the purpose of working to help god because god apparently doesn't need help but then this god notably takes a day off. And so I would actually say that's one of the most beautiful things to me about the genesis creation narrative if you put it in context against other creation narratives of that time which there are others this is stuff you learn in seminary that it's actually really beautiful that this god doesn't need help. And doesn't just need you know doesn't just tired all the time and you do get that in some of these other creation narratives now buckle up for some social media clips here Jeff because I know you love taking things that I say that are dicey and these end up on social media so he like so.

23:30.20
forestandtrees
Oh no.

23:38.71
forestandtrees
I'm ready.

23:39.39
Jeremy
Let's go to the question is God All powerful. Essentially yes I believe you have to argue biblically that God is all powerful I Believe God made all that there is I believe God existed before the rest of creation. These are things I Believe. Ah, the omnis that we often talk about you know, omnipresent all those things those aren't explicitly named in scripture. That's a greek idea that was that it's often often attached to God Just if you're curious where that comes from but here's the interesting twist. Let the listener understand. With the creation of free creatures with free will God has essentially delegated some of God's power. So when God decides to create the way that it appears God has created it now technically means. God is not all powerful because God has willingly delegated and trusted if you will choose your word some of God's power to creation that now has free agency free will to choose things. Contrary. To what God might desire which means that when it comes to our day-to-day lives God does not always get what God wants and this would be an example of the limits of God's power and it's only limited because God decided by choice to limit God's power.

25:12.39
Jeremy
In this way and again this gets back to what we find in Jesus right? So was Jesus all powerful. Well in one sense. Yes, Jesus is fully god we've we've already covered that in chapter one and in human form. But Jesus wasn't omnipresent. Which is the idea of god can be everywhere because Jesus was in a physical body and so even the incarnation god joining with god's creation becoming part of god's creation was a self limiting. Choice of I'm going to limit some of the power that I have for this experience and so I would say this whole idea points us to Jesus this is what we see in Jesus that god does choose to limit god's power not because god you know wasn't able to do it any other way but because profoundly. This is the way that god chose to do it which I have to just tell you I find beautiful I find incredibly compelling that an all powerful god would not be a Zeus type figure that you know shows off with bravado how powerful he is. But an all powerful type god is willing to lay aside some of that power to join god's creation is willing to delegate some of that power to god's creation to truly allow for free. Will I find that incredibly beautiful.

26:44.31
Jeremy
And it reminds me of another comment that we have got recently and I want to read part of that comment for you. But here's the fun twist. This comment includes a question for Jeff so you know Jeff is high on his horse asking me questions and it's your turn buddy so buckle up. Because we've got some listener feedback from Ken I'm a share. What Ken's perspective and it's very similar to what we saw with Rebecca earlier but then Ken's got a question for you and I'm I'm curious this your and answer so here we go this is this is Ken's Ken's thoughts Ken said I always had questions. But figured as I learned more the answers to the questions would become obvious what I found was as I studied my questions increased. It's a trend we're seeing and the answers to the questions didn't fit into my theology. My small groups didn't like my questions. The pastors didn't want to address them and I seemed to make others uncomfortable which I love. Because that has been so much of my so much of my journey I was told that if I just believed the answers would come to me I felt like an outcast and wondered if I was really saved. How could a new follower question. Those who have been on this path for decades I wanted to start a skeptics club or.

27:42.78
forestandtrees
Yeah, right, right? there with you buddy? yep.

28:01.52
Jeremy
Have a safe place for followers to ask the questions that I think we all have I would consider my current walk as a combo of Youtube I have the questions of Jeff but a theology similar to Jeremy I want to thank you both for the for this podcast. It's nice to know I'm not nuts. Well. You might be nuts Ken but we're also nuts so that's I think that you're you or at least have company. It's it's up for others to decide if we're all crazy now here's Ken's question I would be curious if Jeff could explain I love this. Let's send more questions for Jeff. Jeff could explain his non-belief when looking at the origin of the universe. That's probably the biggest thing that makes me a believer in a higher power the random chance of this world just showing up and then all the different plants and animals that have evolved I find it more logical that there was or is a creator. How that creator still interacts in his creation is another discussion. So Jeff can you explain? What do you do? The origin of the universe.

29:08.46
forestandtrees
Softball question. Very simple. Um, so yeah, ah, thank you for your email Ken that was beautiful. Love love to hear people being people being able to relate to our struggle and our search. For answers and I want to say I'm flattered that you would ask me? um the origin of the universe rather than going to someone like Neil degrasse tyson or or looking up old talks by carl sagan or someone like that. You know forget those people I've got the answer right here all right? So 13.7 billion years ago okay I I could attempt to regurgitate what other scientists have said, but you would be better off just just looking them up on youtube or or reading their books or something. Um I'm not a scientific person. I. I believe these people to be experts and to be doing the best they can. But yeah I'm yeah, it's just me regurgitating their their findings as I say I was I was watching a bunch of videos this morning about the big bang theory and the origin of the universe and I found one. Video there was a physicist saying her perspective was that the scientists really are not being completely honest when they claim the big bang is the origin of the universe they're saying this is basically the best theory we have.

30:38.41
forestandtrees
Way she put. It is the big bang is the simplest explanation we know and it's probably wrong. So I found that fascinating and gives me ah an extra level of humility when I try to think about what is the origin of the universe. But to get out of the scientific explanation and to get a little bit more philosophical I found this quote by Graham Hoppy which I thought was was quite telling it said whatever range of options is open to the theist to explain the existence of god. Exactly the same range of options is open to the naturalist to to explain the existence of the universe if it is open to the theist to say that god exists of necessity then it is open to the naturalist to say the universe exists of necessity same can be said for an infinite regress or if you want to say the existence of god has no explanation then a naturalist could say the existence of the universe has no explanation Graham Alpi says the postulation of a god who creates the universe does not bring with it any explanatory advantage. So I appreciate that quote it kind of gets to the. Cliche debate of who created the universe well god created the universe well who created god then right? wherever you want to start the discussion either way at the the line ends somewhere. So again I I don't know what to think about the.

32:10.18
forestandtrees
Cosmological science of it all I'm I'm part of me is tempted to just um, defer to deism the idea that well maybe there is a god who or some some cosmic being some unmoved mover who created all things. And is just 100 % hands off right? And that's why we don't see miracles. That's why we don't hear god's voice when we ask to? Um deism has has a lot of answering power but it doesn't tell us anything about how we should. Interact with god or what his personality is like simulation theory is a fascinating idea the idea that we're all plugged into the matrix basically and we're just living a computer program that someone designed and may or may not be. Interacting with at the moment this this theory seems very silly to me I don't personally believe in simulation theory but I think it has more explanatory power about things like the problem of evil and divine hiddenness than the theory that. The god of Abraham who is all powerful and all loving and wants to have a relationship with us is the ultimate creator because if that's the case why why? the divine silence. Why the lack of miraculous intervention. So I will end with.

33:42.58
forestandtrees
A final quote from Han Solo kid I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other I've seen a lot of strange stuff. But I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. That's my answer to your question.

34:01.58
Jeremy
Okay, if you're going to use Han Solo he was wrong about that. There is the force. We know this.

34:10.85
forestandtrees
It's true I recognize the irony and I figured I would be called out on that and that's yeah, that's in your favor Jeremy if if this was going to be a um contest of who was going to win over who. Maybe this is just the beginning of my origin story and I'm currently lost in the wilderness but someday I'll be the wise old sage explaining to the next generation. Why the force is real after all.

34:39.17
Jeremy
Okay, so let me react to your answer which I'm hearing for the first time it sounds a bit agnostic to me like you're kind of saying it could be this or it could be this or it could be this I don't really know, but it sounds like and again I'd love. You know, tell me if I'm if I'm hearing this accurately that it's almost like you don't start there. You start with the current experience which is I don't see you know the miraculous I don't see god moving the way I think a god would move or should move. Therefore I then work backwards and say well then this wasn't all created by god is that a fair kind of summary. So then I would say okay, if you could remove that part which I think you articulate very well and I'm not saying it's not valid I'm just saying for the sake of this question if you could suspend that.

35:20.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, correct.

35:32.54
forestandtrees
Um.

35:35.38
Jeremy
And say okay with your current issues aside of what God does not do currently if you just had to go What is the most compelling origin story of all of this where would you land.

35:51.50
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean that's I Guess that's why I chose to Inc include a couple different quotes from a few different thinkers. You know, like ah.

36:00.33
Jeremy
But I'm asking Jeff as the person not not for the sake of argument. No I want you you as a human being.

36:05.86
forestandtrees
Not I'm not allowed to defer to smarter people I think it's it's an an act of Hubris to just pretend that we know the answer right? like yeah.

36:18.51
Jeremy
I'm not saying you know the answer I'm saying which of the explanations would you say is most compelling to you I don't think that's I don't think that's ego I think you say hey of all that I've seen this one resonates the most is there 1

36:25.95
forestandtrees
Yeah, Okay, so it's either I get so I I mean I said that I don't believe in simulation theory which is true but I feel like it's It's a useful sort of parody of of like cosmological arguments. I would say that either just the universe or physical matter in some form always existed right would be sort of the the big Bang Scientific Theory or it could be deism. Some form of God Whether it's. Whether it's like a personal God or just whatever some supernatural thing that has no scientific um explanation or or physical matter or or a spiritual being whatever that means could have. Created the world and then for whatever reason is no longer interested in interacting with it I think that's that's a compelling answer in terms of it. It answers. All of my questions but it it makes it makes religion and and Union or relationship with God kind of meaningless. As far as I can see it does that answer the question.

37:41.94
Jeremy
I mean I can't speak for Ken but I feel like you did a good job.

37:47.92
forestandtrees
Oh oh thanks man. Um, all right? Well am I am I out of the hot seat. Do you have any anything else to ask me or.

37:56.37
Jeremy
No I appreciate and I think that's I think that's helpful to keep in mind as we talk you know all these because even mine I'm not I'm not claiming to know the answers to to your questions I'm just telling you the things that resonate the most with me that you know I've heard or I've you know. Most of the time much smarter people have argued this and that's why I often try if I can remember where I read it I try to you know quote them? Um, but I think that's what you know gets all these conversations in one sense. They're theoretical right? where we're talking like some nerdy. You know, scientific stuff or nerdy theological stuff.

38:17.70
forestandtrees
Um.

38:33.23
Jeremy
But we approach these things as humans with ah a you know a shared human experience where we're trying to make sense of what what we experience day-to day and I think that's where it gets to a very just raw human emotion of you're gonna land somewhere and something's gonna make the most sense to you and. So I appreciate your feedback there.

38:53.57
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I guess hopefully it's not too much of a cop out to say I haven't landed yet in terms of answering that question of of the origin of the universe. Um.

39:03.78
Jeremy
but but I think it's helpful to know and I appreciate Ken's question okay as the as a skeptic of the show where do you land on some of these things you know to give context for your own journey.

39:17.29
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah, all right? Well, let's move on to some more questions for you. Jeremy Verse 12 says the word of god is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two edge sword. Cutting between soul and spirit between joint and marrow it exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. So this is this is a verse that I would say is is kind of the the bible commenting on itself here at least the way I take it to mean that. The bible is the word of god and because of that it is the most powerful most profound most relevant piece of writing that has ever existed and this is this was my understanding when I was a christian this was I suppose part of my freeson for leaving christianity. Was the claim that I always understood that the bible is the most deep the most profound the most powerful piece of writing possible. So my question to you Jeremy is is the bible really that deep or. If you are a christian do you have to consider the bible to be the deepest and most meaningful book in your life.

40:38.17
Jeremy
So I actually really resonate with this question and I've wondered this on a regular basis I do at times wonder are we making too much of a word. You know, ah, the word in Greek or the word in Hebrew that is used are we making too much of a phrase and a lot of this depends on your view of the bible right? So if you you know whether or not let's start with whether or not you think the bible's true start there but then how is it true. That gets into like the idea of is it true in inherentently which is you know a lot of christians would say every single word in Greek or hebrew is handpicked by god that's the way in which is true or other camp would say infallible. Which would be more of the ideas that are communicated are true even though the words may not be you know as handpicked by god here's what I would say this is ah let me be a human here for a second I have a master's degree in biblical theology if the answer to the to your question is that the bible. Isn't as deep as we think myself and many others have wasted a lot of time and a lot of money. So I I acknowledge a bias I have even into this question because I'm pop committed to this right I have spent so many dollars.

42:03.29
Jeremy
So much of my time studying this that it would be hard for me to come to conclusion. Yeah, it's actually not as deep as we thought there's you know that that would be that would be a tough thing. So I think I have to acknowledge my bias there I want to believe. That it's ah it's as deep as it is right because I've given so much of my life to this. So I think that that's ah, a presupposition I bring to this conversation I do remember a story when I was in bible college undergrad and we were in a class and the professor had us break into to groups. And I'll I really have remembered this one particular day thought that was such an interesting assignment and the assignment was all right. Your group has to figure out. You can only save 5 books of the bible and all the other ones are going to be lost to history forever which 5 books do you save. And then give us like 10 minutes and each group had to figure out. Okay, you can only say 5 which 5 do you save and it was such an interesting conversation to like you know it's like survivor you know, bible books like which which one's going to get voted off the island and why and. And which ones are most important, what would we lose the most you know and and so that just that 10 minute conversation whatever it was made me realize or or see the bible uniquely not just for like oh it's cool text but like what like what do we actually need you know from it. So then.

43:31.67
Jeremy
Get done with that and then the professors. Okay, now you have to remove 2 off your list. You can only keep 3 which 3 do you keep you have 5 minutes and then you know same thing and then it got down to one. You can only keep one book of the bible which one do you keep another 5 minutes and again just the conversations were so fascinating and they'll never forget the professor said. Okay. Now imagine you could keep none that we lose the bible as we know it to history. What have we lost and you know start asking the question would we still have christianity would we still have belief in Jesus like what if you literally had none of that. What would you have and. It was such a great opportunity for me and what I realized in that discussion is and again I got I got to say this well because this is gonna get clipped I realized that. I would still have my faith in Jesus I would still be a christian even if the bible didn't exist even if we had none of it left and so in that sense we don't need the bible because our faith is built on something beyond that now with that in mind I would say I'm incredibly grateful. We have it and I love that. We're unpacking it a chapter at a time in a podcast like this because there's so much there so I would say I do think the bible is invaluable as a you know you you ask compared to other works of literature as a.

44:59.24
Jeremy
A document compared to any other document. The world has ever seen right? I would say it's inval for 2 reasons 1 ah more least at least 2 reasons one would be god stoops down to meet us where we are and you have example after example, after example, every one of those examples points us to Jesus shows us. The nature of who god is in the person of Jesus and so we have a ah chronicling throughout history of god stooping down over and over and over again to meet with god's people and I think there's nothing else like it that gives us an account of how far god has been willing to go to meet with god's people and bring us along. Secondly, it gives us a unique account of how god has progressively revealed who god is and how we can make sense of so much of history in that light and in that context with the big reveal being Jesus and so I would say the bible is uniquely able to help us. Better see Jesus it is not another member of the trinity. It is not something to be worshipped. It is not something to make an idol but it does offer a a a unique resource that you're not gonna find anywhere else now here's my here's my wild card back to you. Because you are acknowledging a very Christian understanding very I would say commonly Christian understanding of verse 12 is referring to the bible. So here's my my rebuttal to that. What if this verse isn't talking about the bible now you might be going whoa whoa whoa jeremy hold on now.

46:16.82
forestandtrees
Ah.

46:35.57
Jeremy
Listeners before you turn the podcast off or throw your listening device into your pool just hold on I want you to remember something when Hebrews was written. There was no the bible right? Didn't exist so what you and i. Know of as a bible if you are reading along hebrews 4 with us right now and you have a bible open what you're looking at right now did not exist. They didn't have that not to mention most people at this time were illiterate. So even if they would have had the bible. They couldn't have read it right? What if this is. Crazy thought out there. What if this section is actually talking about Jesus like we constantly see throughout the book of hebrews that we think we're starting with something and then it's like oh we're actually gonna get to Jesus now let me take you a little journey Jeff to see how you can get there. If you want to get there with me hebus four look at verses 12 through 14 okay, so you read 12 your your question comes out of 12 for the word of god is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest 2 wo-edged sword cutting between soul and spirit between joint and marrow it exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

47:41.36
forestandtrees
Um.

47:51.80
Jeremy
Which easily could sound like it's talking about the bible but read in context notice the shift in verse 13 the very next phrase nothing and all creation is hidden from god. Okay, so now the the very next thought is we're not talking about god. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes. So this is all contextualizing verse 12 in light of god not in light of a book right? and he is the one to whom we are accountable. So then since we have a great high priest who has entered heaven. This is now verse 14 knows another shift jesus the son of god. Let us hold firmly to what we believe so it shifts from verse 12 that kind of has language that would lead to sounding like we're talking about the bible and again if you just read hebrews 12 or he was 4 12 without any of their verses which is normally how it's quoted. It does easily sound like the bible. But if you remember there was no the bible. This isn't you. We're reading back into that and then you take the very next verse which is thirteen which shifts it to god then the very next verse fourteen shifts it to Jesus right? or not shifted but I would say narrows it down even closer like oh what we're actually talking about. Is the person of Jesus like all of this I think that actually is a better reading of verse 12 that it's not actually talking about the book that we tend to think it's talking about this is again talking about Jesus in a unique way with some language that maybe is is more artistic now you're saying well what.

49:25.41
Jeremy
The word of god is is the bible Jeremy everybody knows that christianity one. Oh one? Well friends I'm here to tell you the word of god is not the bible. The word of god is Jesus we we just saw that hebrews 4 verses 12 through 14 I made that argument. Let me show you another one. That's. Real easy to see John chapter 1 verses 1 through 4 in the beginning. The word already existed the bible. No the word was with god the bible. No and the word was god the bible. No he. Existed in the beginning with god this is Jesus god created everything through him and nothing was created except through him the word gave life to everything that was created and his life brought light to everyone. The word of god. Jesus and I suspect the author of hebrews would be potentially a little frustrated that we have only applied verse 12 to the book that we now know as the bible that the author of hebrews would have no idea what we are talking about Jeff. Back to you.

50:43.67
forestandtrees
So I guess I mean I was aware that the new testament didn't exist while they were writing the new testament and so I I was thinking the author of hebrews was talking about. Um just the hebrew bible as the scriptures that they would have been familiar with. Um, well so just curious I was yeah I was thinking about the beginning of John Once you started to say that and my understanding is the Epistles were written before the gospel of John is is that your understanding so would this be the first case of referring to Jesus as the word or. Or do you think John Precedes Hebrews

51:17.66
Jeremy
Oh man, my bible college professors would be mad at me right now I I don't remember all the orders I think most of the letters were written first is my understanding.

51:22.97
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, yeah I mean yeah your I mean your argument stands either way. Um.

51:35.45
forestandtrees
Well, if we're going to go with Jesus then then all of my complaints about about problematic passages just go out the window so that's you know that's too bad for me. But I'm sure we'll get to some of those again at another time. Yeah yeah, you.

51:47.32
Jeremy
I'm nothing if not consistent Jeff at least you got to acknowledge I play this card over and over and over again.

51:55.50
forestandtrees
Jesus Juked me once again, how do I keep falling for it all right? Well so here's here's a follow up question if if the word of god is Jesus right? I like that Jesus has very profound and and potent words to share with us.

51:59.88
Jeremy
Ah, ah.

52:14.17
forestandtrees
Where do we find what Jesus has to say.

52:21.11
Jeremy
In the recorded form from the people who hung out with him and wrote down things that he said things they heard So that's that's where we would read about that This is where I would suggest.

52:35.55
forestandtrees
Um.

52:37.89
Jeremy
And this is where you and I are similar where we start and then I think we we take it different directions I would agree with you if the only Jesus I ever saw was Jesus that I can read about in the bible and I did not believe that there was any real Jesus that was alive today. I had never had ah an experience with Jesus I would conclude with you that yeah I don't think this is real where you and I I think differ is I would say yeah I have had numerous profound experiences with Jesus and so one way to find out about Jesus is through the written. Text but another way is to just experience Jesus like to have real moments now again the the hard part of that is we we leave any type of scientific talk there right? because I can't prove to you that these stories would be definitively Jesus I can't measure them. You know we can. We can measure the historicity of the text in the scriptures we can talk about that. But if I'm telling you a personal story of mine. You know who's to say it's it's Jesus or it's my imagination right? So that's where it gets very anecdotal but that's for me personally why I would say yeah i.

53:46.70
forestandtrees
M.

53:54.98
Jeremy
I have experienced Jesus in my own life one on one I have experienced Jesus through other people and I have experienced Jesus through reading about what his original followers said about him and so I think all of those are ways that you experience the word of god and. If you know I only had one of them I wouldn't choose it to be the text I would choose it to be my personal experience of Jesus today. But I'm grateful for all of those and I think sadly we relegate Jesus only to what is recorded in. You know these pages and that's all Jesus can do. And I think we totally missed the concept of like if Jesus is alive and if what they said about him is true. You should be able to experience Jesus today and that is what you know my faith is built on.

54:45.41
forestandtrees
Yeah, and I mean I like personal experience too right? Like ah a big part of my story is is seeking to hear directly from god or Jesus and and see what he has to say what direction he has for my life right? I'm I'm open to it right? and. Something I can't help but think about is the diversity of religious experience and by that I mean everyone has their Jesus right? Like some people say Jesus told me to vote republican and some people say well if you really knew Jesus you would never vote republican you know, just just.

55:21.70
Jeremy
Sure.

55:21.80
forestandtrees
To take 1 example, you can apply this to to anything. It doesn't need to be politics. Um, and there's and there's just no way to confirm which again it makes sense if if religion is just this personal. Um journey within your own mind and and that. Gives life meaning again I'm I'm all for that I I wouldn't even want to take that away from people. But how how do we know? it's it's Jesus if if the same Jesus is telling different people different things.

55:56.20
Jeremy
That's a great question. It reminds me of a situation I would often find myself in when I was you know in full-time ministry where I'd be meeting with someone and you know we'd be talking through something they're working through in their life and you know they might at times tell me something go well Jesus told me that the. And sometimes it would be absurd stuff like I remember 1 time someone just said yeah Jesus told me to divorce my wife because this other girl is clearly my soul mate and I'm like way more in love with her and I remember I I don't know I felt bold that day but I was like. Yeah I don't think Jesus told you that and he's like no I'm telling you Jesus told me that and I'm like and I'm telling you I don't think Jesus told you that like that doesn't sound like Jesus so I do think there's gotta be some baseline right? if Jesus can be anything to anyone then Jesus becomes nothing. You know and it's almost like a Santa Claus figure of whatever fable you attach to them becomes part of the collective you know myth I would say you know we go back to what do we find in the gospels and that becomes the that's the that's the initial benchmark that we see and then we compare off of that. And so you know if someone comes to me today and tells me that Jesus is telling them. You know to go and murder someone I would confidently say I don't think that sounds like Jesus because the Jesus that I've experienced and and discovered didn't operate like that.

57:25.60
Jeremy
You know and ah and I think this is where we have to go back to it does matter you know, reading the text does matter having a healthy theology does matter having a healthy imagination about what do you picture when you picture god matters right. And at the end of the day it doesn't solve the problem you're saying because you can still have someone say well you know Jesus? my Jesus told me this and you know all all I can do as a rebuttal is to say that doesn't sound like Jesus to me and they can't prove it is and I can't prove. It isn't and that's part of the mystery of faith. But that mystery is there. Regardless, you know if you believe in something or not like we we all can't prove. You know what these bigger questions we we ultimately have to say this makes the most sense to me and land where we land.

58:10.80
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, it's it's a mystery either way I agree with that. Um, because if if there is no God then it's just up to us to kind of decide What what moral values are right? That's a common objection to atheism is what moral standard. Do you have to base that on.

58:26.33
Jeremy
Yeah.

58:28.72
forestandtrees
But I would say the the dangerous side of religion is it gives people authority right? like that guy who wanted to divorce his wife maybe in his head he had to convince himself Jesus told him to and that's what allowed him to move forward with that or of course we have.

58:46.55
Jeremy
You're absolutely right? and some of the worst parts of history have illustrated that the crusades the inquisition. You know when christians have and even Hitler believed what he was doing was you know authorized by god and.

58:48.20
forestandtrees
We have all kinds of yeah.

59:01.93
Jeremy
Some of the very worst stuff. That's ever been done has been done with someone thinking. They've got god's backing behind it. So I absolutely agree with you and that's why I think it matters like to go back and go does it actually look like Jesus as we find in the gospels does actually look like you know and I think.

59:19.14
forestandtrees
Um, yes.

59:20.98
Jeremy
The Gospels present a very beautifully profound compelling person of Jesus and sadly most of us don't either take it seriously or we have just kind of made Jesus into who we want and. I think we go back on. Ah this is a guy that loved enemies and rather you know rather than conquering rome and winning by force chose to die and submit and revealed his power that way like okay, let's talk about that kind of a Jesus and so I do think. There's got to be some level of object objectivity. But you're never going to remove remove the subjective experience part you know from the the whole part of it.

01:00:04.34
forestandtrees
Yeah, and the right and then you get into questions about the the reliability of the bible. But I think maybe we should move on to the next question all right? So first.

01:00:16.64
Jeremy
All right? Let's do it.

01:00:21.11
forestandtrees
15 says this high priest of ours understands our weaknesses for he faced all the same testings we do yet. He did not sin. So this I thought this was interesting because it brings up the um theological principle that Jesus lived a sinless life and that's very theologically important. To us to believe that he was the the pure lamb who was sacrificed and all that and then as I was thinking of that it made me think oh so if you have if you have to be able to say 100 % Jesus did not sin then that means that sin has to be this clear cut thing right. But whenever I explore things about progressive theology. It usually tends to make sin um less of a clear cut distinction and have more room for a moral gray area. So that's my question for you. Jeremy do you have a clear cut definition of sin or. In your theology is it a room for moral gray area.

01:01:19.59
Jeremy
I would be a failure to my seminary training Jeff if I didn't mention the literal definition of sin that as I saw your question it literally is like hardwired in my head I can't I can't even move beyond it. It's an archery term that means to miss the mark as I'm sure.

01:01:35.96
forestandtrees
What I've never heard that before. Okay.

01:01:38.70
Jeremy
I'm sure you have heard as well numerous times so I have to I have to get that out there for all the Chris listening they're gonna be like whoa. Why didn't why do you say what? it is I know I knowed this I notice I've I've I'm familiar. However, ah I in in. Reality and in practice I'm not sure that's the best way to describe it today or the most helpful we we tend to think of that as a line you should not cross right? and that's kind of the idea of like where's the boundary. Where's this and that's what leads you know the Christian teenagers who are dating to ask. How much you know can I do with my boyfriend or my girlfriend before it's sin. That's that's this idea of there is a boundary There's a line so then you know to live the fullest and under that get as close as you can to the line just don't go over it and then you've maximized your experience. And you know I say this tongue and cheek because I think that this isn't there's got to be something better than understanding it that way right of like there's just this boundary get as close as you can and then don't cross the boundary I would say holistically you know sin robs you of the life that god has for you. Like that's that's the effect of sin so sin is that thing that you decide to do it's when we think we know better than god and we think this is going to be great and then afterwards you realize it's not great and I have this you know, usually unintended consequence.

01:03:11.63
Jeremy
Or result of that and I regret it and I don't like it anymore and now I'm dealing with something I wasn't dealing with before so at its essence it is something that robs us of life. You know, practically we often talk about there are sins of commission versus sins of omission things that you can do. That can be a sin or things that you cannot do that could be a sin. There are verses that I think would would lend to that kind of terminology. But I think at this point in my life I'm trying to figure out what's a more helpful way of actually thinking about this where it practically allows us. To to sin less. You know like not just like hey understand it better but like what's a better way of thinking about this that actually allows us to experience more of what god has for us and so I ask questions today like what leads to my holistic thriving. Like what what would lead to that and so in any given situation. What would lead to my holistic thriving in this situation and sin would be anything that would stop that or prevent that or keep me from ultimately what god it has another way of thinking of it is what draws me closer to god. Like where do I feel like man after that I have a deeper connection I have this piece I have this, you know, whatever or what are those things that afterwards I'm like whoa that that felt weird that didn't feel right? You know exploring that what allows me to flourish.

01:04:44.50
Jeremy
And again I think at the heart that is what it means to follow god god is all good. God is the source of goodness so to be in harmony with god to be in relation with god to be in submission to god is to experience that level in our life. And I think what we end up doing is we we make it into a boundary we make it into a bunch of roles and then we add a bunch of guilt to it of I broke the rule I I crossed the boundary I had a really tried but I wasn't able to to do good enough and then shame kicks in and defeat kicks in. And guilt and all these things I just I think ultimately again, they push us further from god and we get into these spirals and I've spent decades meeting with people and this is their story over and over and over again and so I want something better for all of us I want a better understanding of what does sin look like. And it looks like perfect union with god and so what does it look like to to thrive with who god is and what god wants for me in my life and I I don't think it has the same easy answers. Not the same black and white. You know that that I was maybe raised with and and. Maybe a lot of us would like because it's more comfortable but I think it's a more holistic way of understanding sin as I want to end with a quote that I love this is from an author and pastorym Andrew Farley and I think this puts sin in perspective and again what if we.

01:06:14.14
Jeremy
Took a step back had a more holistic understanding of what we actually want out of our life and then we could realize how sin would keep us from that and ultimately what Jesus has done in regards to this you know christianity has got to be more than Sin Management is a phrase that theologians have used. And it quickly becomes sin management just don't do the bad things do the good things right? It's gotta be something more than that. So what's the more so here's what Andrew Farley says Jesus Christ so thoroughly obliterated our deserved punishment for sins that god will never refer to our sins. Again, we nodd our heads in agreement that Jesus Died for our sins and took them away. But soon afterward we find ourselves buying the idea that we'll be judged for our sins when Jesus returns how could we be judged for our sins if he has taken them away. How can we be punished for our sins when he remembers them no longer and the only worthy punishment for sins is death and death is precisely what Jesus experienced on our behalf.

01:07:28.68
forestandtrees
Wait so is that quote saying that after the story of Jesus we can't even talk about sin anymore. We can't name sins because what about in in the epistles when Paul like makes lists of sins that people can commit.

01:07:45.90
Jeremy
He's saying that if you are choosing to follow Jesus you live in a state of forgiveness so it is not I'm forgiven until I sin again and then I have to get re-forgiven that is how christians sometimes behave that logically makes no sense. You live in a state of forgiveness. I live under the umbrella of the forgiveness of god so yes, sin still exists in the sense of I can still choose things that create disunion with god and I but ultimately I'm living under the unbelievable victory that that Jesus has over sin. And so for me to go back into sin management as if it relies on me I would say to go full circle is to miss the rest that Jesus is offering the rest is found in realizing. It's not about doing enough good things or avoiding enough bad things as if we could ever be good enough. It's about realizing that even when we mess up even when we we fall short we have experienced something bigger and beautiful in what Christ has done for us and I accept it and I lean into it and I embrace it each and every day.

01:08:56.48
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I mean I I like that idea it certainly sounds um it sounds restful and refreshing to me. So I yeah I enjoy that perspective I guess I I still feel like there are still like. New testament like lists of dos and don'ts um that they come after Jesus. But yeah, yeah.

01:09:18.40
Jeremy
There are and you know the Christians have wanted to do the same thing and you know for a long time if you were a Christian and meant you couldn't go to movies and you couldn't dance and you couldn't ever touch alcohol and at some point you got to ask like aren't we just recreating the old covenant.

01:09:35.44
forestandtrees
Right? right.

01:09:37.47
Jeremy
With all the the laws and so I think yeah like the new testament writers are trying to help the early christians figure it out and I think we have to do the same thing today. But even then I would say you can't take all of the situations they were dealing with and copy and paste them precisely into what we're dealing with today and think that that list or. Whatever specifics they talked about is going to do it justice. It's got to be deeper than that and I think our conversation falls so so falls short because we tend to just want the list just tell me the things I can and cannot do and I just think it's way more than that. So I think you have to take a step back put it into a bigger context.

01:10:08.14
forestandtrees
M.

01:10:16.10
Jeremy
And then yeah you can find things. But even then I would say it's more complicated than that where there can be things that I believe that Jesus might want for me that would be different than you and so it could be a sin for me to not do something and maybe not a sin for you not to do that and you go how do you make sense of that. It's like that's the point. Like it's way more nuanced and complicated and it's about connection with Jesus that's the context and rest and the overflow of that rest and so it's a response to what Jesus have already done not a fear base. Not I got to avoid all these things that is what leads you to legalism that is old covenant thinking. And Jesus is offering something better in the rest that we can find in him.

01:11:00.23
forestandtrees
Um, yeah yeah, I mean it's it's a beautiful thought like I said I mean I love the idea of freedom in Christ right? is is kind of a concept of that right? or the the spirit of the law over the letter of the law. Um, again I I would say that is. A piece of of biblical wisdom. The idea that Jesus recognizes this idea that it's human nature to kind of defer back to legalism to create a list of rules of dos and don'ts and I suppose. Maybe it's it's just part of the history of the church right of that. That back and forth pendulum swing of becoming legalistic and then realizing oh these rules are all made up. Right? Okay, so so I'm Goingnna show about that church in Texas and tell that I'm gonna I'm gonna rip up their community guidelines or or whatever. Yeah, and tell them i'm.

01:11:45.42
Jeremy
You're getting there. Jeff.

01:11:56.00
Jeremy
Um, we can't wait.

01:12:03.98
forestandtrees
I'm the Jesus one here you guys you think you hear from Jesus but he's not telling you what he's telling me yeah, all right? Well, that's that's probably as as good a place to wrap up as ever. Um.

01:12:08.89
Jeremy
I have a feeling a lot of our listeners would be interested in joining you Jeff.

01:12:20.84
forestandtrees
If if you made it this far. Thanks for listening and we we love and appreciate you and really appreciate the questions so send in more specific questions like I said we might do some kind of q and a episode in the future. So if you want. Ask Jeremy specifically something or ask Jeff specifically something or a question for both of us or if you just want to say hi and and your podcast is amazing. You change my life ah reach out, let us know we do appreciate it and Lee in hebrews five next week