In chapter 3 we get into the distinction between creationism and naturalism, more old v new covenant talk, the story of Israel and Humanity at Large, and a wholehearted celebration of uncertainty.
Book Recommendations
Crucifixion of the Warrior God
Cross Vision
Benefit of the Doubt
The Myth of Certainty
We’d love to hear from you email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com or find us on social media
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
In chapter 3 we get into the distinction between creationism and naturalism, more old v new covenant talk, the story of Israel and Humanity at Large, and a wholehearted celebration of uncertainty.
Book Recommendations
Crucifixion of the Warrior God
Cross Vision
Benefit of the Doubt
The Myth of Certainty
We’d love to hear from you email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com or find us on social media
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
01:02.30
Jeremy
Welcome back friends for another episode of the forest and the trees I'm Jeremy as always joined with my friend. Jeff.
01:13.23
forestandtrees
It's over Jeremy I have the high ground.
01:16.10
Jeremy
If you haven't figured out yet. Jeff is inserting random star wars clips or quotes. Okay, they feel a little random into each episode as we go hopefully at some point we will exceed his ability.
01:21.22
forestandtrees
Not random, not random. There's a pattern.
01:33.75
Jeremy
To insert said star wars quotes and then we'll have to see what Jeff goes from that point on but still he's he's got the high ground evidently that makes you ob be 1 and I am the ill-fated anekin soon to be Darth Vader but enough talk about star wars Jeff we're here to talk about the bible. And this podcast and we think it appropriate to begin we are a a baby podcast and a few weeks in and we have started promoting this to more people recently and we got our first comment and it was a really good comment and so first off, we just want to say? Thank you. Want to encourage others of you please go in and give us a lovely 5 star rating that'll help us get this shared to other people. But Jeff why don't you share I thought this was a great comment that we got so far.
02:24.79
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, thanks to you? Everyone for for listening and engaging and all our our various platforms. But yeah, we're just starting to get a couple of reviews on Apple Podcasts um and we have ah a handful of 5 star reviews. So thank you to everyone who just gave us 5 stars. That's. That's very generous and we have one written review from Greg from a z so I'm going to read that now I've been a follower of Jesus literally my entire life I'm sixty six years old. That's why I call myself a christian I've seen some pretty awful things done in the name of christianity and. And some pretty awful people who call themselves christians that's why I call myself a skeptic this is why I love this podcast I really see both points of view because I have had or have had both I really like the way these 2 friends present their arguments without being confrontational or challenging. I think this is a great way to help people with the faith issue without making them feel like they are being told what to believe I would love to be in on some of these conversations and in fact, the way they draw me in I sometimes feel like I am so yeah, thank you very much to Greg for maze for that. Incredibly. Kind review and um, yeah, keep keep them coming if if you're enjoying this podcast.
03:43.90
Jeremy
And Greg you you are a part of this podcast with us. We're glad you're here and all the rest of you who are listening. We're starting to get some great feedback from people and it's super encouraging to have a conversation like this to try to create some unique space for this conversation and then to hear you know from our listeners that it's. Striking a chord. So thank you for that. We just wanted to acknowledge that before we begin today and now we're gonna dive in to hebrews chapter 3 today we are exploring issues with the israelites in the old testament surprise surprise there. There were some there were some issues there Jeff it did not go well and we get a reminder. That Jesus is still better than moses in case, you didn't know Jesus is still better now I love the way that verse one just sets the tone for what we're gonna get in this chapter the the author says think carefully about this Jesus. Whom we declare I love that think carefully about this Jesus I would suggest to our listening friends that we do not think enough or carefully enough about this Jesus whom we declare and this podcast is a meager attempt. For 2 of us to try and and usher in that conversation more so and allow us to really nuance who is Jesus? what does all this mean and you know is Jesus good and is Jesus compelling and is Jesus worth following and so we are thinking carefully about this now we're.
05:16.48
Jeremy
We're using if you didn't know I think we've referenced this but we're using the new living translation when we actually read from the biblical text and most of the time I really like this version I really like the way it translates these ideas into plain speak that you go. Okay I get it without it. You know, getting frivolous. However, I'm going to make a complaint on verse 13 in in our chapter today I do not like the way they translate it because hebrews 3 thirteen uses the phrase in new living translation warn each other every day now I don't think that's a great way to translate that and most other translations don't. Don't go that angle this this seems cautionary seems kind of negative. Most translations talk about encouragement and so you get versions like the and iv which is I know a very common one that a lot of you may be using says but encourage one another daily as long as it is called today so that none of you may be ah may be hardened by sins deceitfulness. And I really think that captures more of the spirit of what the author's talking about not the sense of warning but the sense of let's keep encouraging one another and let's be honest, life is naturally discouraging. You don't have to try to do that life just does that right? you get the news. That something bad happened something doesn't go the way you want. We've talked about this before you you pray a prayer. It doesn't get answered right? There's so much discouragement and so I love the the you know, just invitation to hey encourage one another daily. So Jeff today I want to encourage you.
06:50.13
Jeremy
Jesus is still good. That's my encouragement tea friend.
06:51.64
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, thanks Jeremy so good. He's he's even better than moses. Yeah.
06:55.86
Jeremy
Way better way better than moses. So Jeff I don't want you to take my word for it I want to I want to hear what questions do you have today? What you you read chapter 3 and you go what about this? Let's hear it.
07:10.14
forestandtrees
Yeah, for first off I just want to say I think it's it's interesting or it kind of speaks to the state of the audience who who would have been reading this letter in the first place right? The idea that like it's news that Jesus is better than moses right? like to a modern day Christian audience I think that would be like. You know Jesus is better than everyone so that's I don't just kind of an interesting thing ah says something about where the audience was coming from. Um, but anyway, yeah, so that's the theme of this chapter. It's it's kind of all talking about moses and kind of his story with the exodus which people are probably familiar with it at least from movies if nothing else.
07:33.11
Jeremy
Ah, totally.
07:46.13
forestandtrees
But um, anyway, my first question is from verse 4 so it says for every house has a builder but the one who built everything is god so this is talking about the fact that Jesus and god are the same person in some way and that's why that's one of the reasons Jesus is better than moses. So of course this made me think of a little bit of what we were talking about last week with the idea of if god created the universe god created the world when we were talking about free will and stuff like that and I wanted to just ask your general thoughts on on the idea of if. God created the world if it's if it's not just the natural world if it's creation. How does that affect our our day to day lives right? like you, you're a Christian I'm not We're both walking on this same earth. We can both appreciate the beauty of the natural world. So what does it mean to you when you think Jesus Slash god created the world.
08:45.27
Jeremy
First off this verse is great and and it's an extension of what you previously just said this is a verse throwing shade at moses because they would have you know from an israelite point of view. They would have thought. Moses is the builder of our faith. You know he brought the 10 commandments he brought this covenant. He was the architect of basically all that they did in their day-to-day life and here the author of hebrews is is literally throwing shade at moses which to your point is something we miss because we don't tend to think of moses. That way unless you're a jewish christian perhaps today. But the issue I thought of him like this and now the author is saying no no god builds everything and it's not moses. There's something way bigger than Moses Moses was you know a faithful part of that but moses was not the architect and I think it's worth acknowledging. They had an excessive. Respect for moses. So I think you can have a proper respect for a leader you know and I think here we're getting an indication of this was actually creating an issue in their faith. They had too much respect too much adoration for moses that was actually getting in the way of how they were interpreting Jesus and so the author has to. Has to redirect them a little bit and I just think it's worth noting there as you know as we talk about verse 4 that we may go yeah, how silly for them those those silly ancient near east israelites that they would do this but we do the same thing today. We can get locked in for christians I think you can have a pastor that maybe is.
10:16.42
Jeremy
Your ah you know ideal pastor and you and it's like everything this person says is biblical truth their perspective is the perspective and you can have an excessive respect right for a a pastor now again I say that in the context of there's nothing wrong with having a respect for a pastor. But it can get in the way as we're seeing the way they viewed moses it can get in the way and you know for our non-christian audience I would say there are probably thought leaders that you have that have deeply influenced your way of thinking or your way of seeing the world and you may have an excessive respect for them. And that may actually come you know to be a limitation for you to grow because you can't see beyond what this one leader sees and so I think this is just a good reminder for us today. It's great to have healthy role models. It's great to have mentors. I certainly am who I am today because of numerous individuals who have spoken into my life but there is a caution here in hey Jesus has always gotta be the focus and sometimes an excessive respect. Can you know can can limit that so that's my that's my freebie side note on on the verse you're bringing up. Now to your question does it matter. Essentially whether we got here randomly or whether we got here through a creator I think it does and I think you gotta ask the question you know? Okay, so you and I both acknowledge there's beauty in the world. That's that's we can easily agree on that but I would I guess I would ask is there.
11:47.88
Jeremy
You know a purpose in the beauty is it randomly beautiful or is there an intentionality behind the beauty and you know another way of thinking that is does the Beauty direct me to something Bigger. So is this just beautiful and. That's the extent of it like it stops there like Wow look at this This is this is awe inspiring or does that Ah, that is is you know I'm feeling or the beauty that I'm noticing does it actually direct me to something greater and I think that's the difference of whether you think this this randomly came to be. And then I would suggest. Yeah,, there's there's nothing really greater to point it to.. It's just is what it is or I think for a Christian if you say yeah I think God created this then this is a direct way for me to ultimately see the goodness of God in the Beauty of God's creation.
12:40.33
forestandtrees
Yeah, so so something I noted what? um with this question was I don't know I want to be careful about getting into the you know cosmology debate of who created god sorry if god created the universe who created god. Would be a you know, kind of a cliche rebuttal there. Um or just I don't just talk about the all the different iterations that the earth has gone through just since neither of us have a lot of authority on that I didn't think of what you were talking about um last week about how in the span of human history. If. If. You're not a young earth creationist. Um, if you don't think that there were t rexes on the ark then the the Christian Church has only been around for the last 4 seconds of the year right? Um, so when you think of the the earth as we see it now right? like the earth has had.
13:25.73
Jeremy
Yeah.
13:34.49
forestandtrees
So Many different forms and variations to it through like multiple ice ages multiple species have come and gone you know don't quote me on this but I've heard people say that 99% of all species that have ever lived have gone Extinct. Um. It. It certainly seems somewhat arbitrary to me right? like what would why would God if he has a purpose. Why would he choose to do it this way rather than the more standard. Um, you know 6 day creation kind of way.
14:11.37
Jeremy
It's a great question Jeff I would say why? why did Jesus tell stories instead of just explaining theological truths you know because certainly you can argue. There is an easier way to do what he did and I think a lot of christians I mean I have a friend that you know we we go back and forth.
14:16.53
forestandtrees
Yeah.
14:29.14
Jeremy
Talking Theology a lot trying to make sense of stuff and one of the things he repeatedly says to me is like there's got to have been an easier way for God to communicate this than the way that we actually have it and I I resonate with that feeling a lot I think your your question speaks to a little bit like surely. There was an easier way. But I guess I'd offer this perspective I think part of the reason we think that is creation seems excessive if it's just about us and God and I mean by that you you look into you know how many other galaxies there are and you know I have this thought a lot like. Okay, if if we're as small you know our planet in the in the context of our galaxy in comparison to all that there isn't you know in the galaxies in the known Universes. You know all of this that science continues to realize how massively huge this is. It seems excessive like what's the point of all of that and I think the answer is beauty because it's God God Literally just went overboard like God just like ah I'm not just going to create Earth I'm going to create an absurd amount of stuff. Just because I can and I'm awesome and it reflects part of who I am and so you know because we'll get into this I I Wonder why have aliens not come and visited us because assuming you know, a lot of the scientific stuff I've read.
16:01.30
Jeremy
There should be other intelligent life forms that are arguably could be way more advanced than us way ahead of us how come they haven't reached out to us and you know you go? well? Okay, so there's no other people like you know humans on earth and and any of these other galic like that just seems crazy like there's nothing. And yet I would say well that just shows how like literally abundant god is in the the way that god created and so I actually think that speaks more to beauty to the the randomness that you're acknowledging I think speaks more It's so far over the top like god could have done it so simply. And you know if if you take a lot of the genesis stuff literally which I don't take a lot of it literally. But if you did it would almost make way more sense just be like I just plopped a couple people here and then I did this and then I did you know and then that's how we got where we are. It's 6000 years in one sense that that makes a lot more. Like oh yeah, that you don't need all this such stuff. But then when you scientifically look and there is all this other stuff then I think you're left going what why and to me it points again back to the beauty of god yeah.
17:10.44
forestandtrees
Yeah I wasn't expecting to talk about aliens but that is so interesting like what when I was a christian I would think about aliens. It was always kind of this idea of you know there's there's nowhere in the bible that says there can't be aliens. It definitely. Ah, muddies the water a little bit in the sense of so our our aliens if they're sentient beings like humans are they going to heaven. Is there an alien Jesus that comes to their planet or or is there like an alien planet I've not no no I've read.
17:37.58
Jeremy
Have you never read CSLewis's space trilogy Jeff oh no, so CSLewis wrote a space trilogy and what you just suggested is what he has in the story. There are other alien forms.
17:45.63
forestandtrees
Fred Narnia but not the space trilogy. Yeah.
17:56.17
Jeremy
On these other planets and there are Jesus figures that that meet them and yeah, it's ah if you're interested in this listeners C S Lewis wrote a whole trilogy. It's a little weird.
18:05.74
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's cool. Yeah I've I've heard of those books. Yeah I just haven't haven't read them. But oh is sorry is alien Jesus better than alien moses or yeah, yeah, obviously yeah.
18:14.23
Jeremy
Oh yeah, totally all Jesus is are better than moses don't take that line out of context if that ends up in a video clip on social media. All Jesus's People'll be like what is what is he talking about all. Jesus.
18:30.30
forestandtrees
We need. We need this clippable content Jeremy where yeah, put that on a on a bumper sticker on the back of your your Vw van. Ah.
18:32.52
Jeremy
I was talking about alien Jesus is for the record. Let it be let it be set.
18:46.54
forestandtrees
All right? Yeah, any any other thoughts on on the beauty of the natural world I guess ah something that something I thought of when you were talking about that of like is it is it just beauty for Beauty's sake or is there some greater message it. It makes me think of I don't.
19:05.42
forestandtrees
I don't get a clear message from beauty like like Sam looking at a beautiful sunset or something there is there's nothing for that sunset to say except for I am here appreciate me right? and and when I was a christian that was that was my primary way of like. Experiencing god for the most part I I definitely felt the presence of god more when I was in nature when I was out like walking around in the woods or something than I ever did like in church singing worship music which I'm not sure if that's if that's common or not but I and I always thought okay that makes sense because this is like creation in its. And it's natural form. But even then there was there was never a a clear message right? There wasn't like a a voice telling me to do something even if I was praying like asking for direction in life or something and saying like god tell me what you want me to do next should I should I go to this school should I take this job and I would. I would sometimes get that that glorious feeling of of all that I assumed to be the holy spirit or god's presence or something but that you know nothing more specific than that is do you relate to that experience at all.
20:18.33
Jeremy
So I think it's partly how you're wired I think there are people who inherently they get outside and outdoors and it's a spiritual mystical experience for them. No matter what they believe because there is some connection they have with that nothing. There's other people are like there's bugs out here.
20:30.40
forestandtrees
Are.
20:37.20
Jeremy
And I feel dirty and there's sand in my toes. You know that just inherently don't find that and so I don't know how much that's how we're wired versus there's something there I would say I think you know as to your question Why it's like well if God is natural goodness. And if God is by by nature. Naturally beautiful then I would expect creation to naturally reflect that right? So to me, it's It's a consistent logical argument to say you would expect nothing else from a creator if that you know was who I believe this creator to be so to me.
21:04.40
forestandtrees
Um.
21:15.25
Jeremy
It does help me point to I think you can get you know exaggerating with it where you know a sunset can change. Someone's life and maybe that's maybe that's true that that to me seems a little bit dramatic but I do think I've had some profound moments with me and God where and I'm outside and I'm. Part of nature and so I think it's good and if our listeners find beauty in it and find benefit in it pursue that see where it takes you.
21:42.29
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, all right? Well maybe getting back to moses just the next verse chapter verse 5 says Moses was certainly faithful in god's house as a servant his work was an illustration of truths god would reveal later. So I think this speaks to your thesis Jeremy of progressive revelation right? that old covenant we have the law we have the 10 commandments plus like laundry list of rules that come after that. Um, and. Again I I like that whenever whenever I'm reading leviticus or something my number 1 takeaway would always be like thank god I don't have to follow all these skin disease rules because I'm living in New Covenant Times but the 1 verse that always bothered me was in the sermon on the mount where Jesus says. I've not come to abolish the law so that's Matthew 5 17 to 19 says I did not come to abolish the law of moses or his writings are the prophets. No I came to accomplish their purpose I tell you the truth until heaven and earth disappear. Not even the smallest detail of god's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same. You'll be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But anyone who obeys god's law and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. So how how do you reconcile this first with the idea of of doing away with the old law.
23:11.99
Jeremy
This is a great question and I think shows you know how you how you are approaching faith these days of hey you you know you know the old testament. You know the new testament. You've heard you know things and you're able to look at it. Go yeah some of these don't seem to make sense I think the important.
23:12.14
forestandtrees
And covenant.
23:31.54
Jeremy
Part is to you know to really read this passage carefully and consider what is is being said when Jesus says you know don't don't think that this is just going to go away. You know the the new living translation says I came to accomplish the the purpose other translations used the word fulfilled I came to fulfill. The purpose of the old old covenant and you know so then in verse eighteen it's a conditional until you know, ah heaven earth disappear none of this is going to happen until its purpose is achieved and I would suggest that that is exactly what Jesus did. He accomplished he fulfilled the purpose of that which is why we then followed Jesus because Jesus is the only person that could so to truly take Jesus' ' argument logically is until this has been this purpose has been achieved or fulfilled or accomplished. None of this goes away which is true without Jesus, you still would have that system but the moment you realize you know when Jesus says on the cross. It is finished. This is a fulfilling statement an accomplishing statement right? There was something I was doing I have done it. Boom. Now that puts all of this into context. Let me tell you a little story this last weekend I was in Colorado got invited to do some consulting for a church out there and it was super cool. Actually we talked a lot about this podcast and you know how does a local church breach.
25:05.72
Jeremy
People who don't already believe what they believe who may not already have an experience with Jesus so a lot of these conversations were very similar but I was having dinner one night at this this cool little little brewery out there and as I'm ordering I I do my order and the server says to me hey just so you know. We only take cash here and you know oh my god's it's a good thing. You're telling people upfront before they actually eat the meal and I said oh that you know that's that's totally cool and I said I actually have cash and you know I just kind of like I'll just does that create an issue for people and then he goes well. We have an atm. And the back that someone can use and there's a small fee for that you said or and this is the drinking part is it or we use a karma envelope you ever heard of a karma envelope. Jeff.
25:56.40
forestandtrees
Ah, no, it sounds scary.
25:59.12
Jeremy
I had I was I had the same reaction I said what is a karma envelope I've never heard of this. They said oh Karma envelope if you cannot pay for your Meal. You don't have the cash on you. We send you home in a stamped ah envelope. With your receipt and the idea being you get home. You get cash and you mail it back to them to fulfill what you owe them and I mean I literally as you explain this I'm I'm just intrigued like I have never ever.
26:26.65
forestandtrees
Um.
26:32.55
Jeremy
Heard of this I have never heard of a restaurant or anywhere using a you know pay on your honor later and you know we have no idea what you're gonna pay or what you're gonna tip or I mean any of this right? and we're gonna hope you do it and so I was just super intrigued and I had to ask the server I Said. What's the percentage here that people actually you know return the envelopes versus you think you know that these bills just go unpaid and the server said you know my understanding as we talk about in the restaurant is that 95% of the time we get the envelope back paid in full. And I was like Wow that that's a really high percentage you know of this honor system working and then he said yeah and I like to think the the other 5% just haven't got to it yet which I thought was just such like a hope a hopeful you know way way to say that. But here here's what I It just got me thinking about this idea of if.
27:20.89
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, that's that's sweet. Yeah.
27:30.58
Jeremy
If I didn't pay my bill in the moment. It has not been fulfilled right? It has not been accomplished that is a debt remaining that is something outstanding out ongoing if you will that still has to so I could take it home with me and then that karma envelope you know would haunt me. And I'd put it on my desk or something I bet I gotta get to that I gotta do that right? because I know it's not done yet and and the moment you you know, finally go to the bank. You get your cash you put it in the envelope you mail it and you would have this sense of relief probably of like okay now it's been. Fulfill now that that debt I owed has been accomplished. Well we can understand that in in these kind of logical scenarios. It's the same thing that that Jesus is arguing here that there was all of these things to be done right in the old covenant and what we see time and time again in the scriptures. all over you know Hebrews and all over the new testament is that israelites did not do it well and so they did not accomplish it. They did not fulfill that covenant at all. But Jesus did and that's according to Jesus you know he's the one that says. I've come to to fulfill this I've come to you know to accomplish this and then later on the cross says it has been finished. So I think it's totally consistent. It's a great question but I think this question is at the heart of yeah this is why we follow Jesus because Jesus perfectly fulfilled the intent of that.
29:03.10
Jeremy
And then just says hey you don't need to follow that anymore. You're following me now because I am what that was pointing you to all along. So.
29:12.14
forestandtrees
Um, yeah I was wondering if that was going to be your answer which I suppose so the implication would be when Jesus is teaching the sermon on the mount here. It's it's 1 to three years before the crucifixion. So like to that audience. Basically it's.
29:21.31
Jeremy
Sure sure.
29:27.15
forestandtrees
It only applies to them right? because that was two thousand years ago at this point ah from our perspective.
29:32.11
Jeremy
Well yeah, it applies the same you know hey until this has been fulfilled just doesn't go away and yeah, that's that's the same today but we live past the fulfillment date. They they lived you know before it so they didn't know and there's a lot of things you see like that where Jesus was teaching something.
29:37.59
forestandtrees
M.
29:43.10
forestandtrees
Yeah.
29:51.63
Jeremy
And it didn't make sense at the moment. It only makes sense later I think of like in John six you know when Jesus is talking about unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood. You can have no part of me. Well if you're the original audience that you're like um how do we do that like we're gonna get a fork out or like what.
30:06.12
forestandtrees
Yeah.
30:11.43
Jeremy
What are we Doing. We look at it now we're like oh communion you know of course he's talking about that. Well they wouldn't have understood that then and so I think you have to you have to realize a lot of the stuff we're reading you have to read it in context of when was this being said what had happened what had not yet happened. And that has a huge significance into the meaning that we take from it today.
30:35.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, and of course he's but Jesus is kind of like breaking or early's poking at the the old covenant law even during his lifetime before the crucifixion right? like with with sabbath laws and stuff is that you see that as just kind of hints or.
30:46.18
Jeremy
Sure yeah.
30:52.63
Jeremy
So I think that is oh totally. But it's also Jesus didn't pursue the the old covenant law to the letter he he pursued the spirit of the law and so you see him oftentimes saying no no, no the intent of this is this.
30:55.15
forestandtrees
Foreshadowing kind of thing.
31:09.83
Jeremy
And he's repurposing like you think it's this It's actually this is this is the purpose of it and all of that you know this goes back to John Fife they're 9040 Jesus says all the scriptures point to me like all of it is leading you to me and so the intent of all of it. The true intent was. To to find its fulfillment in the person of Jesus and to whatever degree. We don't see that we're misunderstanding the intent.
31:33.70
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, Okay I guess I don't know I'm since kind of a theme in this episode of like more. There's more filler and less of the good stuff right in terms of like. Creation The the universe also like the bible right? Like if you want to say the old covenant doesn't apply right? The old testament is much much longer than the new testament and of course I know you would say that um the new testament is more potent for for modern day Christians but it's just.
32:02.59
Jeremy
Sure.
32:08.17
Jeremy
So sure.
32:10.99
forestandtrees
From a formatting perspective. It's a little bit strange. Um, but you know I get where you're coming from.
32:15.46
Jeremy
Well and I think I think that point that you're making has confused a lot of christians because you know if you were to go on hey I'm going to give all the text equal treatment. You'd spend twice as much time in the old testament than you would in the new and that would be.
32:28.50
forestandtrees
M.
32:34.50
Jeremy
The exact opposite thing you should be doing if you're a christian because you should be reading the old testament in light of the you know or the new testament in light of the old testament to understand oh this is who Jesus is and I read the old testament to better understand Jesus but I don't read the old testament. You know to to follow that and. It makes me think of there was a guy in my church a few years ago and I was going through Andy Stanley's book irresistible which I still love and Andy kind of makes the the whole point you know of hey don't get stuck on the old testament. It was pointing you to something else and why did the church grow you know and and all that. And it really emphasizes the new testament and this person said to me, you know I just have a love for the old testament I just I read it every day I just love it and I'll be honest I thought that was a weird thing to say just to have a love as a christian who's seen Jesus. To say I just have a love for the old testament and I don't know maybe this is an unpopular take. But I think it's a little strange in light of Jesus to be dwelling on something now again I study the old testament I think there's tons to be learned by it but to have a love of that. You know that revelation of god pre jesus just seems a little strange I think you should love the the big reveal you know more and you should love the old testament because it helps you better understand the big reveal. but I don't know but christians I think love love some some old testament at times.
34:04.48
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean I can see why why it's more appealing in in like a narrative sense right? because there's a lot more um, interesting narrative stories in it I mean of course it also has a lot of stuff that's like.
34:16.24
Jeremy
Stories now.
34:21.19
forestandtrees
Really really boring like measurements for the tabernacle and and skin disease laws and things like that. Um I mean yeah I love it I Love the the ancient israelite dermatology. You know.
34:26.41
Jeremy
You don't like those messages chef.
34:39.57
forestandtrees
It's it's the foundation for for our modern society obviously ah yeah, like um with you know we're talking about moses and exodus right? There's been. Of course, there's been a ton of movies about the life of Jesus but there's way more movies about the story of exodus than there are about.
34:58.71
Jeremy
Sure.
34:59.60
forestandtrees
The book of acts right? Even though even though that's got some some fun stories about like shipwrecks and flogging and stuff like that. Um all right? Well anyway, let's go back to the old testament and the story of Israelites Verse Fifteen says remember what it says today when your heart is. But you hear his voice don't harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled so so I think this is being specifically to to the exodus story right? And um, the israelites being being punished for for being hardhearted and um, having to. Walk in the wilderness and um, just be lost and god turn his face away from them and it made me think about the the meta narrative right? that was that's kind of a seminary word right about the story of Israel in the old testament of. The peaks and valleys the ups and downs in the book of Kings that talks about there was there was a good king who took down all the astro polls Bad King who put the idols up and started worshipping false gods and and when you look at the overall story. There's there's more bad than good right? There's more bad times when Israel is. Is in sin and rebellion and even now with with new covenant right? Um, if the mission of the church is to spread the good news and christianize the world I would say that's like what what? The great commission is about right.
36:29.12
forestandtrees
And even now two thousand years later we've got one third roughly of the world is is christianized and even within that you know most christians would say that well half the christian half the people say they're Christian arent even real christians anyway, I guess it just makes me think of if if god's whole mission is to have this. Relationship with us and and have his people be on his side. Why why is there so much human failure like I get the argument of like humans are flawed humans are sinful but here's here's how I put the question if the majority of the students in a class are failing isn't it. Suspect to blame the teacher for some of that failing.
37:14.36
Jeremy
So yes, and no is my answer to this this this question hits a little close to home. Jeff I'm also an adjunct professor. So I I know what it feels like to be the student and what it feels like to be the teacher of a class but here's what I would say with with both of those perspectives in mind if. All the students are failing a class I would suggest probably 1 of 2 things are happening either. The teacher is bad right? The teacher just does not know how to teach well does not inspire the students does not connect with the students or the curriculum itself is bad and there are definitely classes where. I have seen them or ah, you know, ah taken the class and I'm like this curriculum doesn't make sense. This is not the right way to learn this subject and I have you know designed syllabuses for or syllabi is think the proper word there. Ah, for different classes that I've taught and you know you you feel the pressure of how good is this curriculum to accomplish you know what? the the teaching ends that we're trying to to teach you things. So I definitely think you're you're connecting something that is very much there. There could be a couple things going on is the curriculum bad is the teacher bad right? or you know I guess the third possibly could be all the students are bad and I would say that's probably less less likely but also could be scenario here's the way I think you take that question which is very logical and let's use some.
38:45.92
Jeremy
Terminology that Christians often use to spiritualize the question. It would be this. You know if all people are bad. What does that say about the creator and you know it's very common in Christian Circles. We hear talk of original Sin. And how broken and flawed we are and even some churches you can attend and they're gonna tell you repeatedly you are jacked up and messed up and it's amazing that God you know would die for you because you are a piece of garbage is essentially the thing to which I would say. Using your logic if all people are bad God isn't a very good creator like God stinks at this creation thing if we all inherently are bad if we all inherently have Sin God is not good at this God should pursue other other hobbies. Because the creation game isn't going Well now I said that a bit tongue in cheek because that is not my view I do not think all people are bad I do not think original Sin is the way to understand how we interact with with God and I do think your your point is is fair to say you have to then connect if. All of creatures that you have to connect it back to God But let's go back to the context that we're asking. This question is the israelites in the old testament in particular how they lived out the old covenant and how they failed in context of what we're saying a huge point of the old testament and its failure of this covenant is to show us.
40:18.77
Jeremy
What is better in Jesus it is actually fulfilling the point it was created for which was to set us up for something better that we now fully realize in the person of Jesus or say it another way if the old testament and its covenant worked perfectly. If there were none of these stories. We would not need Jesus. There would be no reason for god to become one of us like no, we got it god you stay up there far away. We're good. You gave us some rules follow we perfectly followed them no problem but because that did not work out. God then becomes one of us in this profound you know way of interacting with god's creation and then redeems creation from within and I would suggest that actually is the point of the original covenant. The point of the old testament certainly as I understand Jesus.
41:14.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, but so then you're saying that the the lives of these individual people are means to an end right? like this 4000 years of human history. The the point isn't these individuals who.
41:14.58
Jeremy
Referencing it.
41:30.50
forestandtrees
Who had to wander in the desert for 40 years the point is we get to enjoy that story and um think about it and compare how much how much better it is to live under grace with Jesus is is that correct.
41:46.79
Jeremy
Partially they're not means to an end in the sense of Jesus. What Jesus accomplished applies to them equally so I don't think because they preceded Jesus that what Jesus did oh sorry you you know you came a little too early in the story you're you're just. You know you're a stepping stone I don't think it. It applies like that they have the full redemption that that we have in Jesus so I I believe that I do think they live at a less fortunate time in history than we do and I would say you know we've talked about this a little bit. There's no point in history I would I would go back to at any point I've read way too much history to have you know to believe that that would be better than I get to experience life today and so you go well that that stinks for those guys. Well yeah, but that's all they knew that was you know that's the way this story unfolds. Hundred years from now people will say that about us you know and so it's it's just the way I think life unfolds but I think the the point there is I don't think you look at Jesus? What Jesus accomplished in the atonement. It only doesn't only apply to new testament people and beyond it. Applies.
42:42.87
forestandtrees
E.
42:59.50
Jeremy
Across the board to all of humanity through all time. So from that point of view. They are not missing out on anything. They just didn't know what we know now.
43:10.97
forestandtrees
Um, and then so so what about the fact that um, if this is the the truest of true messages. Why is it at this point that still the the majority of the world does not accept it. What's your reading on that.
43:24.97
Jeremy
I think goes back to free will god's not going to force any particular understanding or behavior upon people and so I think that's consistent with who we see the nature of god to be as revealed in Jesus. God is not coer of ever and so I I think whether there were you know 1 person following Jesus or all of the entire world. It. It would be It doesn't change whether or not Jesus is who Jesus is right? and so how many people actually following Jesus' ' way I don't think. Matters in that point of view I think the reality is my understanding is that Jesus is ultimately going to redeem all of god's creation and so it doesn't matter what percentage believe one way or another all of creation's going to have this profound experience with Jesus and. However, god decides to do it. Jesus will find ways to reconcile where people are at and bring them into a saving understanding knowledge of who he is so.
44:29.72
forestandtrees
Ultimately redeem them in in this life or or the life to come is that is that we're saying.
44:39.30
Jeremy
I'm saying the life to come. You know I think our goal as followers of Jesus now is to bring heaven to earth right? So that's our job to do but that doesn't always happen and I think that's where god coercively does not make that happen god doesn't force heaven. Upon earth right now if we decide I'm not interested in that god seems to respond and you know accordingly and say okay then you don't have to have that and that's also how it explained the wrath of god the wrath of god is not god grabbing a firebolt like Zeus and raining it down upon. You know the people who are rebellious. The wrath of god is you know I always say it's it's the burger king slogan fine have it your way you you want to have it your way you can have it your way. That's the wrath of god when god releases creation it says rather than. Doing what I want to do for you I'm going to release you to your own desires and that that is the definition of the wrath of god.
45:40.52
forestandtrees
With with some stories. Yeah with some stories you could you could argue that God um gave people over to their sinful desires and and they were the authors of their own destruction right? but like sodom and Gomorrah For example, right is is God. Coming down and destroying that city with with sulfur and fire right.
46:02.82
Jeremy
So that's a great that's a great distinction. There's a lot in the old testament I mean you could even go to Noah the flood didn't god kill all those people go to the destroying angel you know in exodus narrative that we're talking about didn't the angel of death come. There's actually.
46:16.75
forestandtrees
Um.
46:21.93
Jeremy
Fascinating ways that the text tells those stories that most of us don't really catch or see him the best book I've read on this is called the crucifixion of the warrior god it's only 1500 pages long Jeff. So you can have this read by our next podcast. It's written by a mentor of my name Greg Boyd and he walks through these stories and tries to figure out his premise in that book is if all of scripture is inspired by god and all of it. Ah, you know, according to John 5
46:40.10
forestandtrees
Easy. Yeah.
46:59.28
Jeremy
Is pointing us to Jesus? how do these stories point us to Jesus because they seem to argue the opposite and I find the logic in that book incredibly convincing now I'll leave it up to our listeners if they're willing to read 1500 pages of academia. It is an incredible argument now if you're going I'm intrigued by the idea I don't have 1500 pages of scholarly work. Yeah, there is a version he wrote of the book called cross vision which is a much shorter version does not go into all the stories obviously does not have the time or the space to do so.
47:21.39
forestandtrees
Give us the T R T L D R jeremy.
47:36.18
Jeremy
But makes the same argument in a nutshell and I would recommend that book as the reader's digest version. The other one's better I've read them both the other one's better, but it is you get you gotta have a commitment to work your way through it but he does that he figured you know how does Soddomagamora make sense of this and the reader's digest version is. Even in the text we find it's not actually God causing these things like we often assume and so there's there's ah, a variety of ways the text nuances these stories that then allow us to go. Oh Maybe this was done in a different way.
48:14.92
forestandtrees
Um, okay I mean I so I I know we texted about about whether we're gonna read exodus for this chapter I ended up reading the the first 20 chapters like up to the 10 commandments this morning and because within that it's got the. Continuous, um, refrain of god hard in pharaoh's heart right? to to continue the drama to make to make the story more exciting so that god can show off with more and more plagues right? They could have ended the suffering. Quite a bit earlier if we were up to pharaoh but god wanted to stretch it out that that is the text man that is the text like I feel like I feel like so many so many so many sermons like try to soften it and try to make it seem like pharaoh is the bad guy here and which.
48:46.26
Jeremy
Such a negative view of god Jeff.
49:05.45
forestandtrees
I guess pharaoh is the bad guy but but god is extending it. He's like I want to make this story a little bit longer so I can display my power a little bit more and this chat this chapter talks about hardening pharaoh's heart and I wasn't I purposely didn't ask you? Why did god. Hard and farrowh's heart because I thought it was a cliche question that's been asked too many times but I guess here we are do you have do you have an answer to that question Jeremy you can you can refrain because it's not fair that I didn't ask you this beforehand.
49:27.11
Jeremy
So you are going to ask me. But now you're asking me. Let's.
49:36.42
Jeremy
You know what? Jeff I'm not scared of this question here's here's what I'd say I think you have to ask this question does god hardening pharaoh's heart fundamentally change what pharaoh was going to do because if the answer is remotely yes, meaning. Hey pharaoh really wasn't going to do that or pharah was gonna have a change of heart or pharaoh was just considering it you know and then god hardened it then I think you have to say okay pharaoh's not necessarily the source of evil in this story. It's god like god's the one that did it or you say. No god did not fundamentally change anything about what pharaoh was going to do he he just you know he he just exponentially blew it up. He he made it bigger. He he took what pharah was going to do and had you know bigger consequences to it than it normally would have been and that's how I would read the story. God hardened something that was already hard but said hey this is who you are this is what you're choosing to do and because of that I'm going to make a point here now again, you can say I don't think god should have done that personally for me I don't have any heartburn over that because it seems consistent with. Free will god you know, honoring everything and I think god can make a point when god wants to right of like hey I'm and cause really the the 10 plagues is god throwing shade on the 10 prominent gods of Egypt at the time and so it's not even about pharaoh this is about god asserting hey I know you all believe there's like 1500.
51:11.84
Jeremy
Egyptian gods. But guess what I am right? I am I'm the real god and I'm gonna prove this to you and that's what we find an exodus and a metaphor that I've used and you know because I've had this conversation with my kids and you can find out how well you understand theology when you have to explain it to a. Ah, child asking you a question about this and you can't use big words and you can't send them to 1500 page academic books to go. You know do it I could do that on a podcast but here's the way I would explain it to my kids and I think this maybe for some of our listeners. Go oh that. That's all I need that that tough if I take a a piece of butter or a stick of butter and I put it in the sun. The sun will take what is existing in the butter and we'll melt it That's the natural thing if I put clay in the same exact thing. The clay will not melt. It will get hard and it' you know you can have them side by side while you do it and you say well. How. How can the result be different if they had the same cause on both of them. How can the effect be different if the cause is then the sunlight is the same well because they're fundamentally different and you know the stick of butter is fundamentally different than clay that is why they can have the same thing I would say that's how free will often works where. God can can do something and whether our free will is responsive to it creates 1 result or whether where our free will chooses against it produces another result and god's more of like the catalyst to cause us to do that and so that's how I would make sense of the story of pharaoh. This is who pharaoh is this is what pharaoh desires.
52:46.85
Jeremy
God didn't change fundamentally any of that God Just either sped it up or exaggerated it to make the point hey it's not about these Egyptian gods.
52:56.56
forestandtrees
But but doesn't text say he Farrah was going to let them go right? He was going to let them go sooner and god was like wait but I have more plagues that I want to show off.
53:04.93
Jeremy
Sure But what does faro do even when he does let him go goes back after him. So I think that's just pharaoh working through you know Pharaoh knows it's a bad idea I think fundamentally in the story of like I should not be treating them the way I'm treating them but I hate them.
53:08.62
forestandtrees
Yeah, he he comes back? yeah.
53:24.39
Jeremy
And I'm pharaoh and I can do whatever I Want. So I think you you're seeing into Pharaoh's mind of like should I give in should I do This should you know he's processing through it but his heart is absolute you know I think he loathes them like he has no value of them. No desire for them. They are a means to his ends. And that's it and you know he's He's only trying to figure out how do I manage them not how how do I not treat them the way I'm treating them I don't think that's what pharaoh is wrestling with at all. Awesome.
53:54.67
forestandtrees
Um, all right? Yeah,, That's the the clay butter Analogy I think I might have heard that before Um, but yeah, it's It's a good analogy. It certainly makes sense like from from a narrative perspective of as you said like God God wants to. Show The people that he's different from the Egyptian gods and stuff it. It makes total sense if this is just a cool story. It makes less sense when there's like actual people who are suffering and dying under the plagues. But anyway, um, so so last question about ah the.
54:20.98
Jeremy
Architecture.
54:29.25
forestandtrees
But hardening the heart that throughout this whole chapter. Ah the author talks about people the people of Israel being hardened in their hearts and also their unbelief. So so this as I said my question I can see why having a hard and heart is a sin being a. Ah, stubborn person being set in your ways being mean or antagonistic or whatever unbelief it's it's harder for me to see why that is considered a sin which which it specifically says right? The sins of their unbelief. Um. And of course I'm thinking of this also in in new testament terms right? like why does god punish unbelievers. So again I won't ask you the cliche question of what about someone who's never heard of Jesus why? Why should they be punished for their unbelief, but here's here's my question. What about. Someone like me right? someone who has heard the message of Jesus maybe too many times and the more I look into it the more things I find that don't make sense and I've I've done the research and I've looked into it and ah you know I'm obviously biased but I don't think my heart is hard I think my heart is. Is squishy soft and I'm open to changing my mind here. But if I don't believe is that a sin that I don't believe.
55:53.33
Jeremy
It. It's interesting I don't know what feedback you're getting on the podcast so far I've had a number of comments made and they're usually made it as a joke but the the comment is essentially you know what's What's the goal of the podcast for you know Jeremy to convince Jeff or Jeff to convince Jeremy as if those those are the 2 options. You know that one of us has to cave and you know this is ultimately a podcast of how long can we last until 1 of us cracks. Which I think is is funny. You know and there there is a humor to it. It's usually kind of set as a joke. But I think it it misses the point of really what this podcast is about is not necessarily arriving at 1 side of a line but of a way of engaging our faith better. And so and again you might use a different word other than faith. But you know your your beliefs or your values or however, you might articulate that for me I'm gonna call it faith right? How how do I articulate my faith and I would say I love this that you put this question in here because you know. Verses 12 and nineteen both talk to this idea. it's it's in this and it's you see it elsewhere in scripture I think this is a huge huge huge misunderstanding that christians have in our in our christian subculture today that I'd like to speak to you for a moment I mean I'm go share a few quotes because.
57:20.25
Jeremy
I I just there's so much good stuff on this now. Voltaire famously said doubt is not a pleasant condition but certainty is absurd and I resonate as a christian I resonate with that line from voltaire. Doubt is not a pleasant condition I I am a natural doubter that is how I'm wired I suspect you and I have a a a shared longing there that we both are naturally doubters. Even you know as we process. So even though I still believe your sanity. It's not without doubts I definitely have my doubts which is why I like conversations like these I like working through doubts I like pondering them. Um and it's it's not always a pleasant condition I wish that there were times I could just know this is but I I agree the second line of that. Certainty is absurd I see so many christians today that I would use the word idolatry that they have turned certainty into an idol in their life and it is a form of idolatry where I will follow my faith in such a way. I have every answer it is the right answer and if you disagree with me, you are categorically wrong and this is what leads to lines such as the bible is clear if the bible was clear. You would not have all of the different denominations we have in the world.
58:51.99
Jeremy
You would not have podcasts like these you would not have all the differing thoughts even in the orthodox Christian Church in 2000 years if the bible was clear what we mean when we say that is the bible is clearly saying the view that I believe that's what that's what we mean. And that is a certainty line that is a line that reveals I am certain about my beliefs and I want to encourage you to any of our Christian listeners out there. Let it go. It isn't idol. It is not of Jesus Jesus does not offer you this. We talk about there are easier ways for Jesus to say this. There would be. But they may produce certainty and Jesus isn't about that Jesus gonna leave mystery. It's gonna leave some room for doubt and leave some room for questions gonna leave some room for faith right? This is all in there together. There's a theologian named Peter ends and he has this great line. He says doubt is not. The enemy of faith is not a solely destructive force that rips us away from god or a dark cloud that blocks the bright warm sun of faith. So this doubt is only the enemy of faith when we equate faith with certainty. In our thinking that is huge doubt is only opposite of faith if your faith is built on certainty and and friends your faith should not be built on certainty.
01:00:24.61
Jeremy
And if nothing else I would hope that our podcast would chip away at that a little bit if that is something that you're locked in on if you want to go deeper on this and you're going I've always been told I had to be certain and I had to have the right answer. This is the first I've ever heard I'm going to give you 2 book recommendations. Ah we'll we'll put these in the notes. That are are great books that that I've read on this particular subject 1 is called the myth of certainty by an author named Daniel Taylor and again a Christian perspective on how to not have certainty another one is we've referenced them already in this podcast is it's Greg Boyd's book. Benefit of the doubt again from a Christian point of view. How do we incorporate doubt into our pursuit of Jesus and he has a line in that book and I'll close with this because I think this kind of brings the whole thing full circle. He says this is Greg it's much easier. To remain certain of your beliefs when you are not in personal contact with people who believe differently it is much easier to feel certain that what I believe is right when I do not talk to people who disagree with me when I avoid them and. Is that not what our world is becoming. It is a social media echo chamber of people who agree with me and if you don't agree with me I will not listen to you and we have said episode 0 of this podcast. We said one of the things we're trying to model is how 2 people who do not see the world the same way.
01:01:58.60
Jeremy
Can have a mutually beneficial conversation can listen and learn from one another and we're gonna be in personal contact with one another and we believe differently and this is what erodes certainty and so if you are the Christian listening right now and you're like no no no no jeremy you're you'rere you're you're selling a short The bible is clear on this or this I'm going to encourage you to find other people who do not agree with that and listen to them. Ask them to explain why they don't agree with you. Itll it will make you a better christian you don't have to agree with them. But truly listen and learn from it and I think that is why I'm so excited to do this podcast as a christian I'm not afraid of the great arguments that Jeff is bringing up and I've said this I think every episode Jeff brings up great arguments. Great questions. It makes me better in what i. Believe to and it keeps me from certainty every every week you chip away any sense of certainty I might have developed that week and its i. Oh yeah, that that needs to go away and I think there's such beauty in that and saying yeah I'm gonna meet these people and so christians I would say if. You look at some of these subjects today and you say the bible is clear about homosexuality I would say how many gay friends do you have how many gay christians are you learning from and you go what What do you time? Ah, they're everywhere if you will open your.
01:03:34.10
Jeremy
Your ears to him if you want to say things like the bible is so clear about what it means to be transgender I would say how many transgender people are you talking to how many of those stories. Do you know how? how often are you sitting with them in that tension right. This is what it means it doesn't mean you have to suddenly believe something different it means I Ah I have personal contact with people who believe differently and if there's nothing else you you take away from this episode. You've made it to the end please have personal contact people who believe differently and let go. Ah, your certainty.
01:04:11.79
forestandtrees
Beautiful answer Jeremy I yeah I I love everything you said there honestly I yeah it made me think of of kind of my my journey through my twenty s you you mentioned a couple authors. It made me think of Rachel Held Evans I feel like is was a big proponent of of mixing doubt with faith or or doubt being an important part of faith. Um, and you know it's I was yeah I guess I'm still sympathetic to to that.
01:04:32.52
Jeremy
He was great.
01:04:47.33
forestandtrees
Perspective You know as as an unbeliever that's part of why I don't want to call myself an atheist because I don't feel certain I doubt my my doubts I doubt my unbelief. Um, yeah, and the the verse is a little bit poignant in that sense of because of their unbelief they were. Were not able to enter his rest I resonate with that I feel like if I could just have a more clear answer then I could just relax I wouldn't need to be making a podcast right now wrestling with these questions.
01:05:18.83
Jeremy
Ah, but what we'll see next week is that really is a connection to the idea of sabbath and so they missed out on a type of sabbath rest because they didn't and I would say even there. It's not really about doubt it's it's they they would not Follow. They would not trust so this was more of disobedience and again this is referring back to the people in exodus We. We know the story we can go Back. We can read that and and go what was the context there and so you know I Also I was I didn't mention this but I'll throw it in now.
01:05:50.58
forestandtrees
Yeah.
01:05:52.38
Jeremy
I think about like who's the token doubter we have in the new testament Dowdy Thomas that's that's his name. It's literally in his name is id card says doubting Thomas his first names doubting hey what? what do you mean? Jeff what do you mean? So here's the deal.
01:05:55.82
forestandtrees
Yeah, doubting Thomas yeah yeah, right? I mean the bible doesn't call him doubting thomas but yeah, colloquially, that's his name. Sure.
01:06:11.46
Jeremy
I love this Do you know? Thomas was martyred for his faith like he died as a martyr like that's what church history tells us like you know again, we can read these stories of a lot of these guys like what happened to him I would love for someone in in eternity to walk up and go like who's the first person that says. Oh are you doubting Thomas and he goes what'd you call me? Yeah, no, no, we call you doubting Thomas down there. He's like you're saying because of 1 question I had that that's how you think of me now like I died. For my faith I died for my pursuit of Jesus and you guys call me doubt like it would be the funniest and again this is this way my brain goes it would be the funniest character's like the first person who says that to him and and he discovers this is how we think of him today this guy died a martyr for his faith. And we don't call him that we don't call him one of the great ones. No, he's doubting Thomas because he had some questions and I just think it speaks to the the people who followed Jesus had doubts Peter had doubts Paul had doubts John the baptist had doubts like they wrestled. With this and they follow Jesus passionately and if we do not make room for doubts today. We will have a gross faith built on certainty.
01:07:36.54
forestandtrees
Yeah, also I mean also Thomas had already had a nickname. It's like you guys I'm the twin. That's my nickname. Yeah that it I guess that would though that one it was in the bible but it still didn't stick. Yeah.
01:07:43.34
Jeremy
So many names the bible. The the bible you know like have lots of names you know the authors authors include lots of names for people.
01:07:54.54
forestandtrees
So what do you say? This is a a bit of a translation issue or a critique of the Nlt translation with with saying the sin of their unbelief I didn't I didn't even think to look up other other translations on this one but I'd be interesting to look into.
01:07:59.10
Jeremy
On verse 19 I would yeah.
01:08:07.45
Jeremy
Well literally though. Yeah you know the way the nlts so we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest I would say you know, ah probably a more accurate or helpful way of of explaining that so we see that because of their lack of trust they were not able to enter his rest.
01:08:15.20
forestandtrees
Um.
01:08:24.33
Jeremy
I would suggest probably gets more to the point of what the author is saying referencing this story. It wasn't just that they couldn't believe that God could do it that they weren't interested in trusting God and that's really what we see in in the ancient israelites like it wasn't just a lack of belief. It was. We don't want to follow you and do this. Even when you come and like reveal yourself to Us. We're still not going to follow you. You can make literal meals come from the sky and we're still not goingnna follow you. So It's not about doubting in in my understanding it is about We aren't Interested. We're gonna go up to these other gods and do what they're doing. And that's the issue and God saying that's why you didn't experience the sabbath rest that I have in store for you and that is a fun one that I think most triitions miss as Well. Can't wait to dive into that one.
01:09:12.32
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, stay tuned for chapter four next week ah yeah we're going to talk about more more unbelief and and more sabbath rest and and all of that good stuff anything else for us Jeremy anything anything you want to talk about from this chapter.
01:09:22.27
Jeremy
E.
01:09:29.19
Jeremy
No I've said it.
01:09:29.53
forestandtrees
Or okay, great. Ah all right? Well that thanks to everyone for listening and we'll be in chapter four next week keep all the social media engagement and itunes reviews and all that good stuff coming and. Ah, we appreciate you whether you doubt your doubts or doubt your belief or you're certain in either of those thanks for being here you guys are great.