We move onto Hebrews Chapter 2 and discuss deconstruction, divine healing, veganism and animal rights, atonement theory, free will, the problem of suffering, and more.
Peter Singer on Animal Liberation
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We move onto Hebrews Chapter 2 and discuss deconstruction, divine healing, veganism and animal rights, atonement theory, free will, the problem of suffering, and more.
Peter Singer on Animal Liberation
We’d love to hear from you email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
or find us on social media
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
01:01.69
Jeremy
Well hello, everyone and welcome to hebrews chapter 2 you are listening to the force in the trees. My name is Jeremy and I'm joined as always by my illustrious co-host. Mr. Jeff Kane
01:15.60
forestandtrees
I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.
01:16.89
Jeremy
You you do it? Well friend today chapter 2 we have a handful of fun topics to explore. We've got spoiler alert of a focus on Jesus I didn't know if you knew that was gonna happen to hebrews too. But. We got the spotlight right back on Jesus we've got a great illustration of my favorite atonement theory and as should be no surprise more angels we didn't get enough angels last week we need more angels Jeff so we're gonna get it so many angels.
01:48.77
forestandtrees
So many Angels yeah.
01:54.30
Jeremy
Now we also have in chapter 2 what I would like to submit to you as possibly one of the funniest verses in the bible now you may have read chapter 2 you thinking this is serious this is serious of this is the ology you can't laugh about it. What would be funny and I want to draw. All of our attention to verse 6 in hebrew chapter two the new living testament trans or new living translation says for in 1 place. The scriptures say now what we have here and different versions tease this out so this is fun if you're listening at home. And you're not driving in a car or something and you're able to actually do this go to verse 6 and look at a few other translations because some of these are very funny. For example, my my possibly my favorite is the contemporary english version the Cev version it says somewhere in the scriptures someone says to god which is hilarious. Because it's basically the author saying I can't remember who said this or where it's found in the old testament but somewhere somebody said this thing and we know now where it is right? We can look this up. Ah, but as they were writing this. It. It just eluded them. And this is particularly funny if you listen to episode 0 we talked about how the author of hebrews knows the old testament I mean this book is loaded with the old testament and so it's just one of those really funny like moments of yeah I got the old testament down cold but I'm I'm just.
03:31.13
Jeremy
Not able to pick out where this was and they never went back. You know and fixed it and so I just want to I want to pause that that is one of the funniest verses to say somewhere somebody in the old testament said this and now that's its own verse in the new testament.
03:47.99
forestandtrees
That's great I did not pick up on that I'm sure you resonate Jeremy as as someone who thinks of himself as something of a human bible dictionary right? Who can just pull out chapter and verse for no okay.
03:57.89
Jeremy
I've I've never thought of myself as that. No no, never I actually am not good at this I was on a podcast the other day and I was trying to quote John 1612 and I couldn't remember in the moment and so I said it's either John 12 or John sixteen I have to look it up. And then I you know soon as I was off the podcast. It came back to me. It's like oh it's John 1612 so yeah, I totally get what the author's doing here I just think it's hilarious when that becomes its own verse like that's that's now in the new testament. You know of some somewhere someone said I love it.
04:31.60
forestandtrees
Deeply relatable. Yeah, the the author of hebrews was just waiting for Google to happen so that they wouldn't need to remember every single chapter in verse.
04:40.31
Jeremy
Yeah, how do I mean? how do you do this Pre-google you you just say somewhere or someone's head and and you hope no one calls you on it.
04:44.54
forestandtrees
Yeah I've got I've got a box full of scrolls in the back that I can cross reference at some point. Yeah.
04:52.18
Jeremy
I love it all right? Jeff let's take it away what what do we want to get into today.
04:59.86
forestandtrees
Well I Just want to start off by saying this This is not again, not really a biblical passage. It's it's in the new living translation the um header of of the entire thing is a warning against drifting away which is kind of the the theme of this chapter. Um, and it made me think of of course all churches though the world a large are you know, panicking pulling their hair out about deconstruction about young people drifting away. Obviously this is a phenomenon that's not new to our times but it seems like it's It's a new. Thing that that people are especially stressed about and ah yeah I Guess I identify as one of those people who drifted away was once a part of the fold and am no longer here so solidarity to all those people. Um, do you have any thoughts on on this jeremy.
05:51.24
Jeremy
I appreciate your your personal application of of a heading which as you mentioned is not actually in the text but it's helpful as we read the bible to have the headings and kind of have a little bit of like a preview of what is this section. You know that we're about to read about. And yeah, there is a lot of talk about drifting away and I think that illustrates why I'm glad we're doing this podcast because we are coming out this from a variety of angles and so you know I think to to give voice to that to the other side. You know if you will not just. Not just the caution against doing it. But why do people do it and you know obviously if someone's listened to an episode of this podcast before you know that we try to be objective on all sides you know so it's not like Jeff and I are each. Ah. Try to be objective about our own camps and the strengths and the weaknesses as well and I think you know it's helpful to have multiple perspectives rather than just yeah, let's just be afraid those people are bad because what they're doing but why why are they doing it and I think so much you know you reference a deconstruction. So much of that conversation I think is so missed by people and you know it's ah and I'm gonna have a a hebrews moment I this is a great quote I read I I wasn't planning on sharing this so I don't I don't remember who said it but someone paraphrase I'm a paraphrase this idea someone said recently.
07:18.80
Jeremy
You know people who deconstruct aren't dropouts their graduates and I thought that was such an interesting idea like they're not the ones that dropped out of the faith that they came out of it and it wasn't good enough. They wanted something better and I personally resonate a lot with that I you know still love Jesus still would call myself a christian but so much of christianity I don't resonate with and I have major issues with. And so I think it's helpful. You know from that point of view and from your point of view as you know the the token skeptic of our show to talk about Let's let's talk about drifting away and let's explore it from a variety of angles right.
07:50.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I mean deconstruction is is such a weird word to me because I feel like people use it to mean like very different things. It's it's kind of become probably overused at this point but it is a very sexy thing. So I like that about it. Um.
08:04.56
Jeremy
as as 1 pastor has said yes, it's very sexy.
08:08.50
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, um, okay so let's start speaking of drifting away verse 4 speaks to 1 of one of the major things for me. So I'm going to read verse four and god confirmed the message by giving signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the holy spirit wherever he chose. So. This this obviously is talking about early times right? like kind of the book of acts type era um, when when the holy spirit is fresh and new on the scene and the apostles are healing people left and right and this is good news for people who are healed. Ah, directly. But it's also a sign of the spirit. Ah a proof of the reality of things and something that's that's always troubled me and and has kind of troubled me more and more the more I question faith is why do we not see miracles. In our present day the way they seem to be much more common back in biblical times.
09:11.30
Jeremy
I think this is a really a good question and it illustrates why you know logic by itself isn't enough like let's just have the right ideas with the right theology because really, you're getting into a a personal journey. You know of okay if I believe these things then these things should happen right? and you know in your case going hey it's not happening. You know what gives with that and so I think that's incredibly valuable. Um, you know you've kind of mentioned this we talked a little bit. Ah, previously about you know angel sightings and kind of like where have you and I experienced maybe supernatural stuff I do want to just give you a fair warning and I feel like our friendship warrants me to be truthful about something that you don't know Jeff there's something going on behind the scenes I was talking to my daughter the other night. And I was telling her about this podcast and I showed her one of our clips from social media and she loved the idea you know I was kind of explaining what you and I are doing and after that out of the blue she said because we usually pray together in the evening. She said well can I pray for Jeff and I said yeah, you could pray for Jeff like. You know Jeff Jeff's exploring all sorts of stuff like you pray for that and so she starts praying for you and I just want to I want to let you know because I think god is a sucker for kids so you've got a kid praying for you I hope that you know doesn't doesn't cause a rift in our friendship I just want I wanted to be.
10:42.57
Jeremy
Forthcoming about that.
10:42.89
forestandtrees
Yeah, thank you Thank you for sharing that. That's that's really sweet. Yeah I I think there are some some atheist type people who would be offended by that or say like I don't want your prayers but no, that's all positive for me I appreciate that.
10:58.92
Jeremy
All right? You welcome it I'll let ila know she can keep she can keep her prayers going I'm curious I'm going to ask a question back as I kind of answer this question when you would when you would say you're in your Christian journey and you are you know you were praying you were.
11:00.94
forestandtrees
Thank you? yeah.
11:10.80
forestandtrees
Um.
11:16.89
Jeremy
Believing the things that now you would say you don't necessarily believe do you feel like you had prayed during that time or maybe during that season for God to do something miraculous for God to show you a sign and that you didn't get an answer to that. So like do you feel like hey I Asked. You know the answer was no therefore I've concluded this. This isn't real or is it more of I Just never saw it So You know how personal is it I Guess to you as you think about this. So.
11:46.45
forestandtrees
Yeah, it's it's both for sure in the sense of like my whole life growing up I kind of just always believe that I mean god must answer prayers and heal people miraculously sometimes but it just must be very very rare and I feel like it. In church. They often explain this a way of saying like it's a misconception that that god doesn't answer prayers anymore like he used to in the bible. He still does but it just happens overseas more than than it does in America I think I feel like that's very common.
12:12.54
Jeremy
Just not here. Yeah.
12:16.14
forestandtrees
That's a very common talking point a lot of people would say it's because of modern medicine like we don't need faith anymore because of modern medicine is is a talking point I've heard a lot which which doesn't really satisfy me. Um, but anyway and I had a whole period in. Bible college when a lot of my friends got really into charismatic movements and miraculous prayer and they developed a theology that it's always the will of God to answer a prayer and heal someone miraculously and if it doesn't happen. It's because someone didn't have enough faith and so that that sort of rattled me um, hearing people. Speak that boldly about about the nature of faith and healing and stuff and more recently like less than a year ago after I had kind of come out and told my parents that I don't believe I'm not a Christian anymore. That that was something I was dreading doing um and that they were pretty chill about it. But anyways, a little bit after that I had a family member who just unexpectedly had a brain aneurysm and went into a coma and it was just a situation where. Doctors said there's nothing we can do all we can do is wait and see what happens so it was the perfect opportunity for God to show up with a miracle right? and I I was happy to be proven wrong I mean I wanted to be proven wrong and I was praying like God This is.
13:52.23
forestandtrees
You're a moment right? like don't do it for me. Do it for my family member and other people who are in their life and you you know it's you certainly could say maybe my prayers meant nothing to God because I was not a Christian I didn't have faith. Um. I Know a lot of my other family members are Christian they were praying for for that person as well and sadly it it didn't happen and she passed away. Um, so that's that's the most recent example I suppose of me praying for a miracle and not getting it.
14:23.38
Jeremy
Yeah, and I think what's so powerful about that story is whether you would call yourself a christian or not, you can relate with that. You know that longing for something to be different. And maybe some attempt you know whether that be ah, a prayer or soliciting a prayer from someone if you you know wouldn't call yourself a christian or or you know whatever that is some yearning for that and then it doesn't you know doesn't go the way you want and then the disappointment of that the heartache and then trying to make sense of it right of like okay. Why would god not answer that. That's you know that's incredibly problematic. There are strains in theology or you know avenues and theology I think of there's 1 particular called process theology that would offer an explanation to this and you know. Where I resonate with a lot of process theology. It's a lot of of open theology. You know where where god is is more engaged interacting with people responding to people where I get a little uncomfortable with some of it is it seems to really negate any any supernatural. Because it tries to offer a theological explanation for everything and so I would say that's kind of the weakness of of some of the process theology that I've explored but you know there is a guy his name's Thomas Ord Thomas J Ord and has written a number of books. He he wrote a book called god can't and.
15:53.85
Jeremy
He he tries to offer an explanation and I and I say try in the sense of he does whether or not you know the reader would agree with it is is up to the reader but he offers an explanation as to why? like in. That example, why did that not happen and you know he would attribute a number of things you know of. Of all these different agents with free will and all you know and basically makes the argument god god's not coercive. So god does not coerce god's own creation and override it and I think there is some encouragement maybe in that view There's also. I feel like I have just as many questions when I'm done with it. You know? and so if you're listening today and and maybe this is this is a burning question for you I would say explore a little bit of process theology and and some of those ideas in particular this book god can't by Thomas J Ord and maybe that's gonna offer an explanation that might be very compelling to you. You know I'm I'm curious to someone who is dealing with the pain of that no answer or a non-answer from god you know does that idea is that idea encouraging or is it discouraging I would you know I don't know I'd be curious on that. But I think we have to look at there's something there and as the christian the pastor of the of the show you know I have to be honest, like yeah I don't get all my prayers answered and so there's there's no so and even the ones that you think are home run like you said the god this makes sense to answer this one.
17:25.87
Jeremy
And then god does it and you're like wow. That's really hard and you know I think you know some of the explanations I agree with you are horrible like oh it only happens across you know the continent not not here other places around the world or it only happened in biblical times now again I think there are some explanations that for example. I wonder this is just more of a question to let loom how many of the examples that we find of demon possession like in the gospels would we today more attribute to mental illness and maybe we wouldn't say oh that. That person clearly has a demon because we understand oh that person's dealing with this right and we would be able to to name it label it and it wouldn't feel so scary as it did for them. But maybe they didn't understand you know what we understand today. So I do think there's some things you look at and go maybe it's not a 1 for one because culturally we understand more things than. Then they did but I would go back to our angel conversation that we had last week and I would say there have been moments where I couldn't I couldn't use them as proofs to you that obviously god is is real because god you know only god could have done what god did I can just say I have enough stories and enough. Anecdotal moments where I'm like that really felt like there was something beyond that and I'll give you one as I was thinking about this question that just came to my mind a couple years ago I missed a flight and so I was in a city that I wasn't supposed to be in I was ah a layover and I'm in this uber and i'm.
18:58.88
Jeremy
Going to where I'm gonna say for the night and I remember I'm just like in a bad mood. You know I'd missed my fly I was gonna be delayed all my schedules next day were off and I'll just kind of grumpy about the whole thing and I'm sitting the back of this uber or left I remember and I have this like sense of god just tell me and again not audibly. Just the sense that god's like this isn't about you and I'm so sitting in the back of this car I'm like what do you mean? It's not about me this is like my trip and my schedule and I'm having you know and I just got this overwhelming sense. It's like this is about your driver and again. I can't explain it I can't prove it I just had this sense. This is about your driver and so I'm a total introvert I am not the guy that makes small talk in a uber or a lyft I will I will happily sit quietly in the backseat until you get me there and then thank you on the app and you know I don't need to talk. But I have this I have this sense that god telling me this is you're here for this and so very uncharacteristically and uncharacteristically for me I say to my driver hey here's the deal I'm a pastor and you know I was trying to go to this town I'm not supposed to be here right now and then I just said. Is there any reason why god wants me in your car tonight I like just ask like as awkward a weird as awkward like hey is there anything going on like I don't know and I I felt so stupid as soon as I said it like this is dumb you know and.
20:30.37
Jeremy
Literally I look you know at the roof your mirror and his his eyes get huge you know and he just kind of like looks at me and he's like wow. Um, yeah I'm I'm going through a lot right now I'm like okay tell me about it and he starts telling me this story I mean it was one of those like. Out of a movie I mean he's he's you know all these hard drugs that he's been taking you know's time about cocaine and I mean he's like telling me all these stories and he's party and he's this and that then he tells me the story he tried to kill himself recently and the gun jammed as he was trying to do it. Literally he's like I can't even kill myself and all of this and he you know he gets to my destination. He just like pulls over and we just have this whole conversation where he's continued the story and I literally just said to him hey I think god sent me to tell you like tonight that like. He sees you like this is this is god's answer to your prayer like he he's aware of you. He sees you and I I kind of have the feeling right now that I miss my flight for god to be able to say this to you and this dude just starts like weeping. And we have this like incredible moment and you know I try to get them connected with some christian community where we were now I said to say did god answer that prayer or you know I I don't know I can just tell you I think if you follow Jesus.
21:58.45
Jeremy
And you have your eyes open I think most of us have stories like that or to some different degree and so to me I go I Kind of think it's like a sign in a wonder not in the sense of like you know poof God showed up and like all my questions are answered like that that doesn't happen for me but I walk away from a moment like that and I just can't help. But shake the feeling of the holy spirit was like all over that doing things and and if you said hey you have to explain that away without any supernatural I just I wouldn't be very satisfied with that explanation to that story if that makes sense and so I think for me. I Think maybe we need to explore more of the mystery of what this could look like rather than it's necessarily a you know God Answers every prayer the way I pray it that is what equals a sign because you're not gonna get that and God's not a genie God's not a vending machine I have no idea why God doesn't answer. Some of the purse and I think anyone who tries to just offer it at an easy blanket. Explanation should be very suspect because who knows what God is up to and what God is doing behind the scenes. But I think your question is valid and we have to Acknowledge. There's something there. Maybe it just needs to look you know, differently than than sometimes we look for it.
23:15.32
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I mean that I mean that's a great story and like you know whether whether the gun jammed on accident or whether like God supernaturally caused the gun to jam and supernaturally caused you to be in the cab with him right? like a.
23:33.37
Jeremy
Totally right.
23:33.54
forestandtrees
I'm glad that guy's alive right? Whatever the explanation is you know that that's something that that troubles me like if I wanted to be skeptical of religion of how like it seems like answered prayers are are so often kind of these emotional answers rather than physical ones right? like ah. People have a testimony of like God help me to be a better husband and father and show up for my family or God help me to overcome my alcoholism right? And and for me, it's like whether that was literally God or whether they needed the idea of God to Placebo effect make their lives better turn their lives around right? like ah. You know I'm happy for the positive change again. That's that's kind of like this idea of like what's the social utility of religion and maybe that's worth it in and of itself. But I don't know if you have thoughts on that or if we should just move on.
24:24.14
Jeremy
Well I think Placebo effects is a great concept and scientifically the placebo effect works I mean like they can like they've proven that right? So I do think you can have some of the things that we would attribute to religion or christianity that we could say are the placebo effect which.
24:29.49
forestandtrees
M.
24:41.61
Jeremy
Again, Is it negating that it's real.. It's just saying. That's the the reason doesn't need to be supernatural. It could be that right? But then I think you have other stories like you know this the story I Just told that's not placebo like like weird things happened. It wasn't just I felt a certain way and then you know I mean like how did I end up. In that guy's car and how did the flight you know and again even that like I have massive even if I were to say though like obviously that was God Well then I have a lot of other questions like so God you know, caused an entire flight to be. You know, missed for me or just for this kid. It's like then you have other like okay does.
25:14.28
forestandtrees
Um, oh yeah, the logistics are maddening.
25:18.40
Jeremy
Will do another things like right? yeah like it spirals out of control quickly. So I don't have any I don't even attempt to explain that other than I would say there are stories like that that are not placebo effect that things unique happen and that's where I think that to me is a very compelling reason to Believe. God is real. There is something supernatural. It's not just able to be explained Away. You know the way that that we might want to.
25:44.34
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, okay yeah, thank thank you for sharing that I appreciate that? Um, ok, well, let's move on to your favorite verse verse 6 where you just pointed out that the author. Yeah, the author didn't know where it was thankfully um.
25:51.20
Jeremy
Yes, someone somewhere.
26:00.84
forestandtrees
The bible I was reading had a reference so it references psalm 8 you know I wouldn't have known this on my own but let's some I want to go back to psalm ma and read a passage here. This is this is a very different topic than we were were just talking about yet. You made humans only a little lower than god and crowned them with glory and honor. You gave them charge over everything you made putting all things under their authority the flocks and the herds and all the wild animals and the birds of the sky. The fish of the sea and everything that swims the ocean currents. Okay so I I may lose some of our listeners here. But. I've got my vegan hat and this is something that I've been thinking about a lot in the past couple of years I I used to be someone who consumes meat and didn't think much of it and then I started exploring arguments for. Animal rights and I came to the conclusion that yeah, it's not really justifiable for me to eat animals just for my own pleasure when there's when I can get all the protein I need from beans and vegetables and things like that. And I've been watching a lot of vegan debates on Youtube where someone goes to a college campus and says like how do you justify eating animals and it's it's fascinating to me how quickly people will go to religion and say it's my god given right? and I think they're correct biblically in the sense of the bible.
27:31.86
forestandtrees
Literally says multiple times that humans have dominion over animals and for me I'm just I'm not exactly sure that this is true and I think that um modern science would say that humans are animals. And we we tend to think that we're special because we're quote unquote smarter and have technology and have society and culture and things like that. Um, but yeah, I'm I'm not so sure anymore. So That's that's my next question.
28:04.41
Jeremy
So I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian or any of those things I do eat meat but I want to begin by saying if you know you're you're talking about the hierarchy structure you know and essentially God Humans animals gives us as humans the right to abuse animals. You know is is kind of in a nutshell I think the the argument you're presenting which I would say yes I have seen that as well and I want to just Acknowledge. That's a sad application of religion if anybody walks away and goes hey.
28:25.69
forestandtrees
I.
28:38.79
Jeremy
There's a spal verse that says that humans are above animals therefore I can do whatever I want to animals come above them. Ah if you read that hierarchy. That's you know in psalms as an invitation to abuse those underneath you in authority on the on the scale you've missed the point of following Jesus I just want to say that like. If. That's your takeaway because the point is just because god is above us doesn't mean that god abuses us or has the right to just do whatever god wants to us because well you know god's above us and that's not the point of the hierarchy. It's saying you know? Ah, it's trying to offer something but I would suggest if we take away from it. We can do whatever we want to. Animals because of the hierarchy. Your religion is is very sad to me I just want to say like that's ah, that's a horrible application of that thought now what's interesting is Jeff sent me a video in advance to watch and I watched it and I was incredibly moved by the video and.
29:34.00
forestandtrees
Oh wow.
29:36.22
Jeremy
Like blown away by the logic of the video and so maybe we can put the link to that video I'm not sure if we're allowed to do that. Maybe we can put the link in the podcast notes. So again, it's as well. Those videos where I think if you're a logical person which I am.
29:44.35
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, yeah for sure.
29:53.81
Jeremy
You have to acknowledge. There's some great points being made and he uses a word I've never heard of before Jeff this is probably you know you've probably got this tattooed on you somewhere. The word is speciesism. This is this is a new word for me I learned from Jeff this week so I want to share this is from this video speciesism. Is giving preference to our own species over another in the absence of morally relevant differences allah I can eat an animal because they are not human and I you know I just. Abstractly value humans above animals therefore I can do whatever I want to an animal and the you know the person who made the video points out that essentially that argument got used to you justify slavery like this is a different type of person therefore I can treat them like this and it's really an application of might makes right? which i'm. Wholeheartedly against and think it's the opposite of how Jesus is and so I actually want to just ah, give you credit here like this was this was like 1 of those where I stopped and went I'm I'm more bothered in my own faith of how inadequate. My christian understanding of this is based on I think what you're presenting and you know some of the logic. Ask you all this. So if it's not species ism what you know on what basis am I going to say I could eat an animal.
31:21.94
Jeremy
And again I just want to acknowledge this is something I want to explore more because I think there's something to this I think as christians we need to acknowledge just because we have these verses doesn't necessarily mean that the argument is as ah as strong as we might think it is. So I reflected on this this week I was like all right? What is the argument and I think rather than speciesism I think what you have to say at least biblically is the argument is the image of god so it's not part of creation is good and part of creation is not as good. It's part of creation is made in a unique way. That other parts of creation are not so again I wouldn even need put that necessarily in a hierarchy I guess you know technically the biblical writers are but I think that can be misleading for what we're doing but the point being humans are unique in the scriptures in that we are the only part of creation made in the image of god. Now we find this originally in genesis 1 verses 26 to 28 is where this idea comes about and what's interesting about that as I went back and read it this week Jeff is even that when image of god is introduced it's introduced in the context of human authority over animals which surprised me that it's even there. Like wow this really is like even as you know the writers were trying to explain the imago day they're they're using animals to distinguish. they are not like they are not the image of god you know and so I would say this is not about necessarily our capacity as creation like we're so much.
32:54.36
Jeremy
Better than the animals I think it's about relationship more than that that that humans are invited into some type of special relationship as part of god's creation that animals are not invited to experience now again that does not inherently mean animals are discardable or irrelevant. It just means that according to you know what we find in the scriptures. The authors are setting up. There is something different about animals compared to humans. Um, now where it gets you know applied in a really healthy sense would be like you go to a few chapters later genesis 9 it says no one should murder another person and then it references back to the logic of amago day. The image of god for in his own image god made humankind. Okay, why can I not kill a human well according to genesis nine because humans are made in the image of god so I would say the biblical argument as I understand it is. The reason you can kill an animal is because they're not made in the image of god right? So I think morally there is an argument to be made that because they're not you know that they're a part of creation that is allowed to now I think you also have to put this in the context of Prefall post fall. Right? So before sin entered the world I don't think that we were supposed to to eat animals and so I would say if anything this is an accommodation that god has made or god has allowed because of sin not because this is god's perfect design so in that regard and this is.
34:23.59
Jeremy
Very hypocritical of me to say you are living out the the more full more complete truer picture of God's intent by not eating animals than I am even though God has has made permissions for that to happen. How's that answer.
34:43.83
forestandtrees
I'm living in the garden I am naked and feel no shame.
34:49.60
Jeremy
Um, you're just living your best life prefall.
34:51.55
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah I I mean I've heard this theology too that the idea that like before um, the flood right? that hum that humans weren't supposed to eat animals and that's part of an explanation or there was no preded predation at all, right? like.. That's that's the explanation for how come on the T on the Arc The T rexes didn't need all the Zebras and stuff like that. Um it Yeah,, there's There's a whole museum haven't you been to the the Arc encounter. Um, sorry what? what was I going to say about that.
35:10.44
Jeremy
Were there T rexes on the Ark Oh dang it I got it I got to go see it.
35:26.11
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, that's something I thought about a lot of like if I was a christian and had some some kind of influence like I feel like I could totally build a case for what what you just said of that. The proper theology is actually we want to get back to eat in right and we want to get to a place where no one eats meat anymore. And of course I feel like that would be really hard to argue because there's so many passages in the bible like the 1 in psalms and like in the book of acts when god literally commands Peter to slaughter pigs and eat their meat and there's there's a passage for Paul says you know some people eat meat. Some people don't eat meat and you can't judge either 1 of them anyway. I've sometimes fantasize about. If I was a pastor and I could speak like at a church in Texas somewhere and present my case and just see what kind of feedback I would get.
36:10.23
Jeremy
Ah, if you ever go and speak to a church in Texas please let all of us know and myself and our listeners will gladly come and experience up I'd be a good time that'd be a good time.
36:19.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm ironing my polyester suit now. Um, ah all right? Well speaking of of flesh and blood and and um, slaughter and stuff ah Verse 14 says because God's children are human beings made of flesh and blood. Sun Also became flesh and blood for only as a human being could he die and only by dying could he break the power of the devil who had the power of Death. So ah, atonement Theory Huge topic I feel like we're going to be talking about it all season long right? because it comes up a lot.
36:53.67
Jeremy
Sure.
36:55.64
forestandtrees
In the book of hebrews. But here's my question with this first specifically when it says only by dying could he break the power of the devil right? Like whenever we talk about atonement theory. It's always like well god had to do this. You know Jesus had to die because it was the only way to defeat death and sin and blah blah blah and I always think but. God makes the rules right? So why is he complaining about having to follow his own rules couldn't he do it differently if he wanted to.
37:22.82
Jeremy
Was a great question and it's a question I think many christians think about and feel uncomfortable with and then don't have an answer and they just move on and bury it like no no I don't want the of that question anymore because that why why does this have to happen. So this verse verse fourteen I reference in our intro is a great example to me of my favorite atonement theory and if you don't know atonement theory is how do we make sense of Jesus dying on the cross like what? why right? and and how did that save and so. Ah, the problem is most christians only know one view of atonement theory theory which is the penal substitutionary view which is a great way to describe that and that is the view I grew up with I don't have that view anymore I don't think that's the most compelling view and I don't think that that view is remotely represented in this verse in particular. I would say this verse is is a strong argument for a view called Christus Victor which is latin for Christ is victorious and it's the idea that Christ is victorious over evil over you know the the devil which is very clear by dying. Could he break the power of the devil. Who had the power of death. So Chris as Victor would argue that there was this stronghold that satan had this claim and in dying on the cross Jesus dismantles that claim takes that from from the devil now what's notably different is it's not Jesus verse the father.
38:54.60
Jeremy
Or god the father is angry and he needs to be appeased. That's the the penot substitutionary view of atonement. This is not that this is you know this is Jesus first the devil not Jesus versus the father which I think is is much better theologically now you raise a great a great point god can create the roles. Why. Why does god have to die. Why did why can't you know I remember the the way I asked this when I was younger is like because I grew up. You know as a christian as long as I can remember learning this stuff and I remember going like why couldn't god just say I forgive you, you're forgiven all right like we're all good like let's just go hang out and you know why? why. Why does god have to play by god's own rules as I was thinking about this question I happened to be reading a cslewis book this week and I was reading with couple of my kids the voyage of the Don treadder which is my favorite of the narnia series and there's this scene. Where Lucy is is reading this like magical book and she can make things visible that are invisible and she's trying there's these little little guys on an island. She's trying to make them visible again. They're invisible and so she's doing this. Well she inadvertently makes Aslan who's the lion who's the. The Jesus figure in the story if you if you're not familiar. She makes him visible and she's like surprised by this and the conversation she had is so interesting in this book and it's exactly to your question. It says this oh aslan she said it was kind of you to come I have been here all the time said he but you have just made me visible.
40:29.32
Jeremy
Aslan said Lucy almost a little reproachfully don't make fun of me as if anything I could do would make you visible it did said Aslan. He says this do you think I wouldn't obey my own rules which I thought was such an interesting you know in light of I'll think about your question in light of that like cs lewis. Portrays you know the god figure as someone who does follow the ruless. So then you got to ask why then I think serious is on something I think god does act this way. Why there's got to be something else that god has created into this that that god wants to keep. As is and if forgotten not to play by the rules would break it and here's my answer I think this is all about free. Will it's all about free will and you go how is this about free will if god doesn't do this then then free will breaks down for free will to be real. The consequences of choice have to be meaningful. There has to be true meaning in choices that we make otherwise free will is an illusion and I would say sadly much of Christian tradition if you carry the thought out it equates to free will being an illusion. It's not real none of this matters. Do whatever you want right. But I think free will is incredibly meaningful and gets to the heart of so many of the things that we find about god so I would say this is why god plays by this is because free will is real things have meaning and so god makes the choice to choose away from god.
42:00.15
Jeremy
A meaningful real choice that then evil latches onto that like there is something there and it's only there because god made it there that god said you can truly choose away from me, you can truly choose to reject me not just like pretend like it. And it doesn't affect anything like it's a meaningful choice and then I think satan looks at creation and says well I was once part of your good creation I no longer I'm part of you I have claim to these people as well and within the way god has created free will that claim is legitimate now again, we might go well that this is seems. So weird and it is a little bit abstract for sure. But I think it illustrates that free will is a meaningful choice if you choose away from god god honors it in some way and we can we could nuance what does that actually mean but there there is a meaningful response and then I think what's happening here is. In this view of the atonement god buys back. There's another view called the Ransom Theory god buys back creation that that had been hijacked or claimed by Satan because of free will and says now if you want to return I have bought you back I've given you the ability to come back and so I think you know. This is a huge question atonement theory I agree with you. We're gonna talk about atonement theory probably a lot a lot a lot throughout this series because it it is very confusing. It comes up a lot. But I think this is this is 1 example and I hope we hit on free will again too.
43:31.72
Jeremy
That free will is more meaningful than we may realize and part of God's creation means that God Honors What we choose.
43:43.12
forestandtrees
Yeah, free free will is interesting especially because I don't know if you've listened to a lot of um, like atheist philosophy about how free will is an illusion I feel like I've I've heard Sam Harris describe how free will doesn't exist.
43:52.15
Jeremy
H.
43:59.11
forestandtrees
For like an hour straight on like 4 different podcasts and I feel like I I almost understand what he's saying like um, my brain is right on the edge of getting it. But it's not quite there. Um, anyway that so that's another thing I think about all the time with like if you're deciding whether you want to. Be a christian or not is like do you want to live in a world where you believe you have free will or or not and I think that's yeah, that could factor into one's decision. Perhaps though it's ah like I said I I don't pretend to fully understand the the argument about. Free will being an illusion.
44:32.78
Jeremy
Well and I would say I clearly understand it fully either I've heard the argument you know and I think you know some of the the most damning evidence against free will is you know some of the arguments of like this is just chemicals in your brain doing certain things and.
44:47.34
forestandtrees
M.
44:49.13
Jeremy
You know, then your brain tries to make sense of it I get that I understand that I would just say if you remove free will the world makes no sense, not just christianity like the world like if you remove that and all this is just chance and randomness and chemicals and there is no other explanation that you've removed Beauty. You've removed meaning I mean like it's just like and maybe you know maybe you go? Well yeah, but that's true I Just don't find that compelling I don't find that to be satisfactory to what I have experienced and what I see in the world and so I I do believe free will is real. And I believe free will matters more in our theology than even Christians realize and I think so much bad theology like I mentioned comes because we negate or we minimize free will and so I'm actually I'm team free will all the way. Let it be known.
45:44.54
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm still processing how I feel about it even though I've been I've been thinking about it for years at this point. Ah yeah I still don't know a free will though I will say the idea of like if if there is no free will the world makes no sense I think like. That's a good argument against free will right? because the world doesn't make sense in so many ways. Yeah yeah.
46:02.80
Jeremy
Well, yeah, and so in some ways but I think you know how do you explain Beauty Then? How do you explain? you know some of the things that I find very moving I don't think random chemicals and chants and all that. Adequately does that and you know maybe you do and maybe our listeners would go. Yeah I think that is a more logical explanation and that's that's why why we have a podcast.
46:24.79
forestandtrees
What so like would you say could you say like if there is no free. Will you could say like all of life is like a prescripted movie right? where the characters don't get to choose the events because the script is already written is that an appropriate analogy.
46:39.96
Jeremy
Well that that would be much of christianity. Honestly, yeah so much of christianity is you're you're ah a you're in a scene and of a movie and you're just a character and you think you're the main character because you're never scene but you're you're just you know we 1 person following the story and so much theology actually.
46:43.37
forestandtrees
Okay.
46:49.10
forestandtrees
Um.
46:57.58
Jeremy
Essentially makes that argument So I would say that falls on its face because there's that's that's fundamentally, no better than arguing There is no free will because both of those are are meaningless your choices had no consequence your life had no consequence like you were just a cog in a wheel and yet you. You were you were there while you were supposed to be there until someone took you out you know and then you weren't there anymore and I just find both the extreme of the Christian you know God God's free will is all that matters or the other extreme of scientifically. There is no free will none of those to me are compelling.
47:16.19
forestandtrees
Yeah.
47:31.80
forestandtrees
Yeah, maybe the movie Analogy doesn't totally hold up all I was wanted to say was like just because the movie is scripted doesn't mean it's not beautiful, right? It could still be a beautiful film that was scripted and just the the weird part I guess is you would have to say it was scripted by a randomness. If if you don't believe in god.
47:51.74
Jeremy
Well I would be curious Why if you didn't believe in God who's writing the script that why would there be a script you know I would say if if you go to that argument then there would there would be I would go more of the if if you're taking God out of the equation free will is an illusion like it's it's scientifically explainable.
47:59.87
forestandtrees
Yeah.
48:11.39
Jeremy
All this is all this is just what it is. It doesn't mean anything more than what it is you know? And yeah I mean.
48:13.43
forestandtrees
Um.
48:16.93
forestandtrees
Yeah, not not literally a script I guess almost more like an an algorithm or programming in a sense but again with without a designer which yeah I don't know I Yeah well you know, just random chance right.
48:31.50
Jeremy
Who's writing the algorithm.
48:36.54
forestandtrees
I Mean we don't need to get into cosmology because you know I'm I'm not a scientist Jeremy don't question my ways who's who's asking the questions here. Yeah, your that's true. You can ask me anything that's fine.
48:41.31
Jeremy
Ah, okay, okay, and just ah.
48:48.99
Jeremy
Ah, we can both ask questions. Okay, thanks I appreciate it. Yeah.
48:54.71
forestandtrees
Um, okay so verse 15 says only this way could we set free. All who have lived as slaves to the fear of dying. So I thought that that verse was was very interesting in the sense of I always think of the atonement of being like god breaks death. Itself right? and like we we won't die. We have eternal life and you could say that versus still saying that but specifically this verse is saying the fear of dying which again brings me back to kind of the metaphorical utility of religion this idea that. Whether it's true or not right. It's it's beneficial for people to believe in an afterlife to believe that their grandmas in heaven and stuff like that and that yeah so this verse speaks to me on on a nonreligious level. But what What's your reading of this first.
49:44.46
Jeremy
First off I think to be fair, this is listed as a secondary reason for why Jesus Died so it's not the primary reason line before it says he died to destroy the devil who had power over death and only in this way could he set free. All who have lived their lives so the focus of that thought is not. Hey this is why Jesus died to free you from this fear. That's the byproduct of what happens when you know Jesus has done what the the writers say to Jesus did so I hear your point here of is this placebo is this just you know we need to feel good so we created something to feel good but I would also say. I think offering someone freedom from the fear of dying is beautiful and that's a it's an altruistic goal and you could say well yeah, but if you you know, use something. That's not true to get to that goal. Then it's just the placebo effect essentially right? which sure but I would say if we take the argument of okay, let's assume which some of our listeners may go. This is too much to assume let's assume Jesus really did die Jesus really did conquer the power of evil power of the devil as. This versus saying let's just take it literally just for a moment for for a thought would it this obviously be a byproduct of that like you go 100% if Jesus really did die really did beat the devil and erase any claim the devil had on us.
51:17.71
Jeremy
Then? Yeah I suddenly have no fear of dying and I would suggest. That's what we find in the early church like that's why most these people were slaughtered and obliterated and they they weren't afraid of it like that's how the church grew it didn't grow you know until constantine and you know christendom all that that's much later. Like it ah grew by them being abused. But again, let's just assume as a thought experiment if you really did see Jesus die and then you really did talk to him after his death and you're like wow. So all that stuff you said is true and you really are god and like you died I watched you die. And then you're not dead anymore and here you are talking to me and then you watch him go to heaven like poof like you would not be afraid of dying like you just wouldn't be you'd be like look I watched this guy do it and he came back like it's it's real and I find this compelling because. That is the history of the early church is they all got slaughtered I mean in mass numbers and Rome tried to eradicate what they viewed as this little cult that didn't play well by the roles and the church thrived and so I think yeah, they had no fear of dying now. Ironically. Most christians today. We don't have that we we do have a fear of dying we. We do have this and I think that's more of an argument to your point of if what you say you believe is true. How on earth can you have a fear of dying I would almost argue the opposite of like.
52:47.54
Jeremy
If We live as with a fear of death that should illustrate that we don't actually believe what the author Peebus is saying here and and if if we do. It's a natural byproduct of that and so again, you could say this is just you want to feel good. You don't want to be afraid of dying so you've invented a way to do it. Sure. I Understand that logic I can see that but I would also offer if we take this literally and go this actually is true then it also is a very compelling way to historically make sense of what we find in the early church.
53:21.97
forestandtrees
Yeah, that's interesting. It would be interesting to see the the stats on that of I don't know like satisfaction or or fear in facing death at the end of life if if there's a breakdown between christians and non-christians. Um, yeah I hear what you're saying that's something I I thought about a lot like when I was a christian of if if someone dies and we mourn for them. But but we're not, we're supposed to be a little bit sad but not that sad because they're in heaven and we're you know we're supposed to. Hate our own lives because it's better to to be with god in heaven. But we still have that instinct to preserve our own lives. Yeah, lots of lots of Twisty turning thoughts with that.
54:13.53
Jeremy
Well and to make it more twist attorney. Yeah I was reading ah Brian Mclaren book this week and if if our listeners know who that is that's ah, that's a Christian author and pastor who many in the church would say is a heretic. He's on the progressive end. Maybe some of our. Skeptical atheist listeners might appreciate him or resonate with him he he had this quote. He's talking about if the earth is thirteen point seven billion years old and he starts listening like and and you you put that into a year's calendar just for like reference wrap your head around that. He talks about how long everything you know at what point did the dinosaurs enter at what point you know, did this enter and his conclusion is all of christianity in that timeline represents 4 seconds only 4 seconds and I thought that is crazy. If the earth is thirteen point seven billion years old in you map that out from the ratio point of view that is 4 seconds of a year then I had thought of like what is eternity going to feel like compared to that and that is one of those literally makes your head hurt if you try to wrap your mind and like okay if. All of the Christian experience has been 4 seconds of this thirteen point seven billion years and all of this is a setup as I believe to something that's gonna be indefinite forever that is what is twist attorney makes my head hurt and but again.
55:41.62
Jeremy
How do I have a fear of dying if I believe that what is ahead is infinitely more than what is now you know I So I think it kind of what you're saying is this could be a litmus test for what you actually believe about eternity or about you know god.
55:59.66
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, it gives you perspective ah that so that reminds me of something I wanted to ask you going back to the um animal rights thing I was thinking about when you were talking that I forgot to ask. But if if you believe in. Evolution right? And you're not a young earth creationist then I feel like it makes the question of what separates humans from the animals. Not so much a hard line but kind of a gradient spectrum does that make sense of yeah.
56:28.59
Jeremy
It a hundred percent makes sense and I've I've had that same tension I remember studying all the different you know, ah homo sapiens and I forgot all the other homo versions. You know there's a whole bunch of them and I was wrestling with this with a friend of mine who's you know also not not a young earth christian.
56:40.20
forestandtrees
Um.
56:46.49
Jeremy
And I asked him that question I said which version of Humanity has the image of God because you can kind of chronicle this and like at what point you know and you know we we didn't land on anything great. But I think that's a great That's a great question that I don't have an answer for.
56:51.46
forestandtrees
Yeah.
57:05.60
Jeremy
And you know I don't know if someone listening has a killer answer to that I'd love to hear it but I don't know how to reconcile that with the image of god at what point you know did the image of god if you take an evolutionary type approach to this you know, maybe some of listeners would say well. That's why you can't have evolution you got throw it all out and. Yeah I mean you have to be literal which then you know you you adopt other problems if you go that angle so I don't know I think it's a great question Jeff and I acknowledge I do not have a way to explain that.
57:24.83
forestandtrees
Yeah.
57:33.00
forestandtrees
Yeah I've I've heard some christians go the other way kind of and explain well, it's not just humans who have a soul animals have a soul right? because we're going to see our dogs in heaven obviously to which I always think does that mean like every. Termite every mosquito every amoeba that's ever lived in the billions of years is going to be in heaven and it's going to be mostly nonhuman animals.
57:56.64
Jeremy
Well I I think you can have a soul without having the image of God so you know maybe that's splitting hairs. But I think an animal could have a soul and not be made an image of God Now here's this is this is a fun bonus. Ah so.
58:01.22
forestandtrees
M.
58:13.88
Jeremy
You know you gotta ask okay will there be if if heaven is real. Will there be animals in Heaven T Whichitch I would enthusiastically say Yes, there's gonna be animals heaven. There are animals here. It only makes sense that there are all sorts of parts of creation correct and I don't think we'll be eating them in heaven. Okay, so I like like I I think we'll go back to that. Um.
58:23.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, and they're I mean they're mentioned in the bible and the.
58:33.52
Jeremy
But then you got to ask okay will God create all new animals for eternity for us to live within heaven or will God bring over the souls of the animals that existed which this is total so we have entered into total speculation on the podcast. But.
58:49.19
forestandtrees
Yeah, like.
58:51.79
Jeremy
I think it's fun to imagine if my dogs have a soul that even though they're not made in the image of god that god could bring those souls over for all of eternity that I could get to hang with my dogs and you know previous dogs of mine that are no longer with us that sounds awesome. Because why would god make all new dogs and all new animals if the other ones have souls like just bring those over right? I don't know. It's just fun thought Jeff.
59:15.15
forestandtrees
Yeah, but it isn't going to be like all a cart. Well everyone gets to choose Okay, welcome to heaven Here's your mansion you know, select from the list all of the animals that you had on Earth Yeah well well I mean most people probably to pick all of their.
59:25.47
Jeremy
Which which of your dog was your favorite.
59:33.92
forestandtrees
Animals they knew personally but but like I was saying like if you believe the earth is billions of years old right? There's there's a lot of animals that have been on this earth for a long time just you know I mean maybe heaven's really big and and there's plenty of room for everybody. Yeah, all right? Well okay.
59:39.42
Jeremy
Sure.
59:46.49
Jeremy
I Hope so.
59:52.49
forestandtrees
Thank you for indulging me last question since chap verse eighteen since he himself has gone through suffering and testing he is able to help us when we are being tested. So I think this speaks to a theological principle that that I still think is very. Powerful. The idea that Christ is with us in our suffering right? like this is a common response to the problem of evil the problem of suffering in the world that I think probably gets the closest to satisfactory for me is the idea of like where is god in our suffering. God is with us because he suffered on this earth. He suffered on the cross and so he's suffering with you while you're going through a hard time in your life and my question to that is does that still apply to people who have suffered. More than Jesus right? like I don't want to diminish Jesus is suffering obviously crucifixion is an unbelievably painful experience but there are people who've lived much longer than 30 years who've suffered their whole life and you could I'd say easily argue there are people who've suffered more than Jesus did on this earth does that. Does that change that theology of Christ can relate to us and our sufferings.
01:01:13.00
Jeremy
So another great question I would answer it 2 parts first part I would say this is one of the most beautiful and unique and revolutionary aspects of christianity a god that willingly. Chooses to suffer and this is you know similar to like god that can experience temptation right? This is this is stuff that the Greek and the Roman gods like they didn't they didn't you know, choose to suffer for fun like that was like wait. What like they they would do that for us like this is a truly unique thought and I would say it's similar to. You know when Jesus says love your enemies. It's like nobody else is saying that one Jesus you know it's one of those like really unique trademarks of like oh this this god is different I would say this is one of those this god chooses to suffer like has all the power in the world and chooses to suffer to join. With creation like that that god made I mean this is a beautiful beautiful thought and to your point helps us understand suffering and evil and you know free will again I go back to that in in a lot of different ways. But this is also what you know as I understand it like in Islam. You know, part of the issue they have with Jesus is that you know well Jesus can't be god if if god is suffering like that's like kind of like ah that's not what god does so he's got to be a prophet or something else. You know this is a a an edgy thought of a god who suffers now here's what I want to suggest though and I remember.
01:02:45.27
Jeremy
I had this exact question I was in a like ah class in seminary and we were talking about like Christian history and some of the martyrs of the church and I remember thinking I don't remember which Martyr it was but I remember thinking like their death was worse than Jesus's like it you know we were like learning something that was horrific and. The same thought like okay so are there people that had more that their suffering exceeded the suffering of Jesus you know you think of people in the holocaust or some you know the gulag archipelago like other things that like surpassed you know the suffering of Jesus. So here's why I think the answer to that is. We tend to only focus on the physical sufferings of Jesus which are massive I mean like you said crucifixion was literally rome's best idea of how to humiliate you and torment you and absolutely. Make you suffer the the fullest extent that they knew how like that's that's what they device. So Jesus had that but I think what we miss and what is the answer to your question is that wasn't the only suffering Jesus had in addition to the physical part Jesus as god literally took on. All of the sin of the world into his his person into himself I don't think we have any idea the level of suffering that Jesus experienced doing that and there's a few passages that I think kind of like offer a nod to that of like.
01:04:13.70
Jeremy
Hey, there was this other thing going on and that was super. You know important to to realize like for example, first John 2 verses 1 and two say this he is Jesus Christ the one who is truly righteous. He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins and not only our sins but the sins of all the world. So it wasn't just like Jesus dying for the things that he had done which again if you follow the the new testament writers Jesus didn't have any sin that's kind of a crucial christianity 1 to 1 but Jesus takes in the sin. The mistakes the flaws. The failure. All of the brokenness of the world into himself on the cross and literally puts all of that you know to death in in the whole process of that Paul says in colossians 2 14 that Jesus canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. So I think that's intriguing imagery takes the record of the charges against us the claim that satan had against us and Jesus in his person nails that to the cross literally transfers all of that from us to the cross through himself and I would suggest that that. Was way worse than the physical suffering that Jesus had that taking the entire world's sin upon him and nailing it to the cross and submitting that you know to to Satan and then eradicating it in that moment I bet that was a far worse.
01:05:44.99
Jeremy
Part of the experience for Jesus then the physical part was as bad as the physical part was so in that point of view. No one has suffered or ever will suffer remotely like Jesus did on the cross you can have physical suffering that could rival what Jesus experienced in a crucifixion. But again. Other people were crucified. So even that wouldn't be hard historically to have well, there's other people. There's 2 people next to him having the same thing that wasn't what made the suffering unique what made that suffering unique was a perfect god willingly choosing it and and willingly taking on. Every part of brokenness in the world and nailing that to the cross and I think that had to be horrifically supernaturally painful in ways that we probably don't even have words or imagination to explain so with that in mind I would say. No matter what anyone has suffered or what you are suffering or anyone throughout history who you know history is brutal some some horrific things have happened I think all of us can still look to the person of Jesus and say you completely get it. You can help me. Ah, you you have experienced beyond what I could ever imagine and so hopefully that is a very encouraging thought for anyone who wants to be able to find encouragement from the sufferings of Jesus.
01:07:10.82
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, that so it's the the psychological emotional suffering so just spiritual. Okay.
01:07:17.49
Jeremy
I would say spiritual which again we even go what like because you and I have like we don't take someone's sin on right? like we we're not able to do that. But what would the spiritual feeling of that be I don't know but I I can't imagine that that.
01:07:27.13
forestandtrees
Um.
01:07:34.14
Jeremy
Had no part of what Jesus experienced.
01:07:35.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, so just curious is that is that connected to when Jesus is on the cross and says my god my god why have you forsaken me is that is that an expression of that or do you see that as a different thing going on.
01:07:47.94
Jeremy
So I'm torn on that because Jesus is quoting psalm 22 and if you read psalm 22 there's a number of parts throughout that psalm that apply to the crucifixion and the point of psalm 22 is that god wins even when things go horribly wrong. So I look at that and I kind of you know I've I've referred to that that passage before as like a cosmic wink of like Jesus looking at the people who are literally going. Well we lost everything we thought was false jesus isn't god ah you know this is horrible and in that moment quoting that verse. And bringing psalms 22 to their mind and then they like you know they would have understood psalm 22 in ways that we don't so they would have played that out and went wait a minute that psalm is about god winning in you know, almost like hey wink wink I know this looks bad. This is all part of the plan like this is all part of what. We told you was coming and and this is the first moment kind of like peeling back the curtain. The first moment you're going to see it so I find that a very compelling explanation for that I also think there's a case to be made of that would be a logical explanation of you know is Jesus in that moment feeling sin of the world and feeling the separation of you know of god and him and it's the first time he's ever felt that you know in his life and that's why he says those words I think there's also merit in that explanation as well. Either way.
01:09:23.78
Jeremy
I just think we have to acknowledge the suffering couldn't have just been physical if what Jesus you know what they said he did if he actually did it.
01:09:33.92
forestandtrees
Okay, yeah, so the suffering it's not. It's not just blood. It's we got to go after the heart too and and the spirit the fall the full triangle. Okay, yeah, all right.
01:09:44.48
Jeremy
Um, yeah, right? because they weren't just killing a human right? I mean again, if you if you believe the story there was something more going on and I think that's what is a very intriguing thing to consider and. Creates even more appreciation that Jesus would willingly choose that.
01:10:04.34
forestandtrees
Sure yeah I hear that all right? Well once again, Jeremy you've I'm impressed with your answers. You've come up with thoughtful answers to all of my burning questions. Do you have any other thoughts or. Or any other passages from this chapter that that you wish I would have brought up or anything like that.
01:10:25.26
Jeremy
No I really appreciate your questions I appreciate that you're giving voice to good reactions from the text and I hope our listeners are appreciating those as well and again I'm offering the the best explanations I have and you know they they may fall short. For people. They may not be enough and so we you know we hope you you join us in the spirit of dialogue and growth and exploration and listening and learning and rather than you know trying to walk away with any of us thinking we have all the right answers on anything. This is more of a journey of of exploration and discovery and glad to do it with you Jeff and glad our listeners are along for the ride.
01:11:09.86
forestandtrees
Yeah, glad to do it with you too Jeremy ah, speaking of the spirit of dialogue and conversation. Why not reach out. We're a new podcast so we are just starting to inch our way out into the world so you could send us an email forced in trees potted Gmail or. Reach out to us on social media. We're we're putting little clips out and stuff like that and whether you reach out or not thank you for listening. We really appreciate it and have a great week.