Hebrews 1 - The Phantom Menace

Hebrews Chapter 1. Jef finally gets to ask Jeremy his burning questions. Topics include progressive revelation, corporal punishment, the concept of kingdom, divine justice, climate change, enemy love, angel sightings, and more!

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Transcript

01:02.11
Jeremy
Well hello friends we have made it to chapter one. We have recorded episode 0 if you've missed that that is our chance to talk a little bit about what on earth is this what are we doing who are we. What is the book of Hebrews. All those questions we've we've already discussed now we're into episode 1 chapter 1 getting into the text I'm here with my friend co-host Jeff Jeff how you feeling about today.

01:30.55
forestandtrees
Jeremy I am feeling so good. This is truly the Phantom Menace of forest and trees episodes.

01:38.10
Jeremy
Um, Wow Phantom Menace I That's a that's a lot to unpack right there I will say and I didn't know you're going to say that I will say my reaction to that The Phantom Menace is not received well in the canon. However.

01:42.93
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

01:53.99
Jeremy
I would say and this is my hot take on that so get used to hot takes and you know people can be mad best music of any of them and best light Saber Duels said what I told it's the best.

02:04.74
forestandtrees
Yeah I would agree with that. Yeah duel of the fates. Absolutely I I loved the movie at the time I was nine years old. You were probably a little bit older than me when when that movie came out. Yeah yeah, but um, yeah I mean we I could talk about that.

02:11.93
Jeremy
I was a little older. Yeah, all right and tremendous. Wow.

02:20.80
forestandtrees
Movie for 10 hours but we have something we have an even more essential text to discuss and that's the book of hebrews.

02:23.44
Jeremy
That's a different podcast I think we have to all right? So let's get into it so hebrews chapter one where we're diving in Obviously we've set up a little bit if you missed it I want to encourage you go listen to episode 0 we kind of set the stage there but I want to I want to set up a little bit of what what do we find in hebrews one if you are following along with us it would I would encourage you read hebrews one on your own That's probably the way to get the most out of it if you're just like hey I'm here for a good time I want to hear the 2 of you banter back and forth then welcome. You're you're good as is and we'll go from there I want to set the tone with a couple verses and then we're gonna let Jeff loose on the skeptical questions in hebrews one. So here's here's kind of some. Some of the the way that the author sets the tone right out of the gate. This is the first 2 verses and I think this is so beautiful. This is in the past god spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son. Whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom also he made the universe so rightta the gate hebrews is making this argument. The author is making this argument that there was a way that god interacted with people in the past now in the context that we know this in the canon. This would be a reference to to what christians would call the old testament.

03:51.89
Jeremy
What jews would call the hebrew bible right? This is in the past god spoke to answer so it's a it's a nod to that and acknowledgement to that we know there are other things that have come before and I love verse so but in these last days right? but now but lately but the thing that we have seen is that god has spoken to us by his son and then the whole point of the book of hebrews. In this chapter and beyond is going to be it all matters about Jesus like Jesus is the pinnacle of all of this and that's why I think' gonna be so interesting in this conversation is obviously Jeff bringing a lot of the the reactions that I have that you probably have. And and we're gonna you know, try to to be fair to that. But then this also point kind of looming in the background I was yeah but what about Jesus but what about Jesus right and so there's there's a phrase for this theologians call this progressive revelation and that's the idea that you know god didn't come out in genesis and unleash everything like here's. Everything about me write it down. Get ready now you fully know me, there's this development throughout the story of the scriptures right? So you can go to genesis and go what did they know about god very little compared to what we would say we know about god today as it continues to be revealed even you go to to moses you know moses. What was his big question of god is what do I call you like like what's your name like what what who am I talking to what's god are you like Moses isn't even sure of that that's like ah a pivotal question in that story and I would say all this is progressive love revelation and then the author of hebrews is saying the pinnacle of progressive revelation is the moment.

05:24.80
Jeremy
God is revealed to be like Jesus right? And so this is what I hang my theology on today that all the weird stuff that Jeff is gonna bring up and I'm gonna acknowledge. It's a lot of weird stuff I make sense of it in Jesus and that's the only way I know how to make sense of and hebrews right of the gate is making that argument right? that the the past we had this. But now in these last days and then one of my all time favorite verses is verse 3 this is so good and and again this is where I would say how do you have good theology base it on this verse so hebrews one 3 the sun just refer to Jesus is the radiance of god's glory and the exact representation. Of his being sustaining all things by his powerful word after he had provided purification for sins. He sat down at the right hand of the majesty in heaven I just love that and and let's just pause for a second the sun Jesus is the radiance of god's glory when god shines. It looks like Jesus. And and Jesus is the exact representation of who god is not like a glimmer of it not like hey it's kind of like sort of resembles. What god looks like the author papers is saying Jesus is the exact you wanna know what god looks like god looks like Jesus always. God has always looked like Jesus. We just didn't know this is the idea of of progression right? and now the author who is saying now we know what god looks like this is similar to something that Paul says in colossians 2 9 Paul Argues for in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form.

06:55.50
Jeremy
So we see this is elsewhere in in the new testament that the writers are saying look if you've seen Jesus you've seen god that's a theme we're gonna see throughout the book. So I want to set the stage with that because I'm gonna I'm gonna harp back to this logic a lot as as Jeff's gonna ask some really good questions and. You're gonna what what Jim where are you getting that from I'm getting it right out of the gate right? That's right out of the the opening argument in this book is that god looks like Jesus they didn't know it before but we know it now. So what do we do with that and and I think this podcast is gonna give us a great chance to to flex this muscle and see if it works and. You the listener get to decide does this argument hold up does god look like Jesus does this help us make sense of some of these big questions that we have and so in light of that Jeff the gate is open you and just to to preface this. We're not going to go verse by verse. We we discussed this as Jeff referenced ah in episode 0 if we if we did our original plan I think we we guessed it would be 22 years where we're abbreviating. It. So Jeff's gonna highlight versus that that to him stand out that he has reactions to I'm gonna offer my reaction to it and we're just gonna let it. Go where it goes so with that Jeff what do you got Hebrew chapter 1.

08:15.21
forestandtrees
So I like Jesus I like Jesus's message stuff about forgiveness. Love your neighbor. You know, even the the extra challenge of love your enemy when Jesus talks about anyone can love their friends but it takes real love to love your enemy. That kind of thing not judging people being kind of poor people selling all your stuff giving to the poor. Ah, all of that stuff is great and I and I love this theology. It's it's something that I've I've heard a lot and I've interpreted lots of scripture this way this idea of um, it. Anytime you see god do something that doesn't look like this this loving forgiving accepting version of Jesus. It's distorted somehow you're you're seeing it wrong or the or the writers of the bible are seeing it wrong. So I guess my main question with with progressive revelation is why.

09:04.37
Jeremy
Sure.

09:12.95
forestandtrees
Why does god take so long right? If you want to say the old testament period is 4000 years and what about all those people who lived and died an entire lifetime under this old covenant where they didn't get to enjoy the full picture of god.

09:29.16
Jeremy
Yeah, you know it's funny that question makes you think there's there's people who sometimes like when we read I think of you know the story of King David you know there's this There's a sense that christians often idolize a time period like that. Oh that would be so great to follow god. You know when he had King David and I think to your point. No. It wouldn't have like they didn't know that god looked like Jesus they were still figuring things out. There was a lot of misunderstanding I wouldn't want to go back to any of those points I wouldn't want to like be inserted to anywhere in the old testament. And not know that god looked like Jesus as revealed in you know the the person of Jesus and and obviously what we see in the cross and the resurrection I wouldn't want to go back to any of that. So I think it's a very fair question. You know? Well, what's the deal god I would suggest that you know what Jesus has accomplished. It. It works you know forward and backward right? like it applies to everyone and so it wasn't like god said hey you know well too bad for you, you, you didn't know what I was about to do I think god in you know. If god is even remotely good I think god can keep all that in mind and be like okay in light of what you knew here's you know what you did and and I'm going to keep you know progressing and you know I suppose that gets into ah other topics such as you know what? what is ultimate redemption look like and you know maybe we can touch on that in future episodes. But.

10:57.70
Jeremy
I think it's I think it's a fair question but I think I think the answer is twofold at least 1 god acknowledged that they couldn't handle all of this at where they where they were you know in their own development and I think we often we we skip over this as christians that. You're looking at ancient near east culture and and to you know again to to try to take something out of that and just copy and paste it into our culture today doesn't make any sense. This is a totally different culture and so god is is revealing gods self to that culture as they understand it and as they can handle and keeps giving more and more and more but then the second element I think why it goes slow is you have the human limitation factor like they they assume as much as they can and they you know their imagination only goes so far within that generation and then you know it takes another generation that that has an open mind and we see this even. You know topics I get in a lot of conversations with with christians and churches trying to figure out hey how do we handle? You know the topic of homosexuality and when a gay person wants to get involved in the church What do we? What do we do? Well that's a huge topic just generationally even right? So if you're talking to someone over 40 they're they're probably gonna have you know one frame of of reference and certainly older than that and then you get younger and they they approach that topic from a totally different point of view. Why well part of that's generationally and I think each generation has a different imagination than the one that came before well compound that.

12:27.33
Jeremy
For thousands of years in the old testament and it took a while right for god to go hey you're gonna have to keep building keep building keep building on this until you can begin to understand more and more of who I am and that's why you know in scripture we find that the the writers say at just the right time god sent you know Jesus? physically as god kind of looked at it and said okay I think now. You're at a place where you can handle this and so I think that's the answer to that question was it too slow I mean I I think you can make that argument I would have to just say I got to trust that god revealed god's self at the time that god felt like they could handle it. You know and. And I think that still happens today and you know maybe god wants to say more to us now that we can't handle and we're not ready and you even see this idea you know in John 1612 when Jesus says hey I wanted to tell you more but you couldn't bear it so I'm going to leave you with the holy spirit who will guide you with all truth like you're not ready yet. I love that idea and I think that idea plays out over generations in the old testament.

13:29.47
forestandtrees
Yeah, that that's interesting I I feel like that. Um that interpretation of progressive revelation. You could map that onto other aspects of culture right? like as as societal norms change I was thinking of like I just saw the movie Elvis recently and. Um, when Elvis was big in the 50 s and sixty s it was totally scandalous to people people thought his music was way too aggressive and sexualized right? and now like your grandpa listens to Elvis and it's like boring so you know I can see that could be ah, an analogy of um, how things are. Are adapted how society changes over time. Um, ah again again, it feel it feels weird that um you know these are people's entire lives right? People live and die in these times a lot of times when I'm listening or when I'm reading the old testament and there's. There's seasons of judgment right? like Israel sins and then god turns his face away from them for decades maybe hundreds of years and it's kind of this idea of well a couple people screwed up and now the whole class has to pay right? Um, and it it always rubbed me the wrong way to thought of.

14:37.11
Jeremy
Sure yes.

14:43.70
forestandtrees
I was always taught in christianity that that God loves people on an individual level right? like God loves you and me and every single person individually. But I'm not entirely sure that that's biblical. It kind of seems like God. Paints with a very broad brush and judges entire nations for the sins of a few Do. You have any thoughts on that.

15:04.33
Jeremy
I think that speaks to a huge part of the culture. You know you travel the world and you realize the culture that americans have is a very individualistic culture and so we we read these ideas as individuals you know I remember. Grown up in in youth group and being told you know the line which which maybe some people have this like hang in their house somewhere you know, even if you were the only person alive Jesus would still die for you and I was like wow just for me, you know and.

15:32.86
forestandtrees
Yeah.

15:41.26
Jeremy
So I'd like I look at that line today and I go sure right? like it's it's not wrong, but it's misleading in the sense that it it invites me to think of my faith as an individual and I think the problems with that are twofold 1 as you reference. That's not how god often interacts with people throughout the scriptures and you know you you reference a handful of them. But there's that's all over the place where you know a few people do this and and this is you know how I mean think about the nation of Israel how often that is the case over and over again. And you wonder like how many people actually did this. You know this 1 thing that they're all getting you know this reaction for and I don't know some of times we we don't know is it the majority was it a handful was it. You know I don't I don't know but then I also think where this becomes problematic is it negates any sense of the church today and I don't mean. You know, literally the church just as a nonprofit entity as as again christians in America are often to to interpret that but I mean literally the community of believers in any shape or form that that you know the the spirit gathers people together if I interpret my faith as an individual you know Jesus just died for me because I'm that great. Ah, that might help my self-esteem. It's gonna make it harder for me to see why do I need other people and what's the value in me living out my faith with others and I think that's a huge part and that's why I think a lot of the church today in America suffers from individualism.

17:10.46
Jeremy
And you know I think churches are trying to help people figure that out, but it's really difficult to do and I think it's more of a cultural lens than anything else because if you travel to you know more Eastern countries they they don't have that sense of individualism the same way we do and I think if you travel the world you realize like oh this is kind of a. Ah, Western value and certainly as Americans we have this but other countries are much more like shame and honor cultures much more have a community because you know if I feel shame. It's in relationship to the community right? as an American like who cares I don't care what you think about Me. Or honor you know honor is I Want to be esteemed in my community as an American again like I don't really care and so I think that I think you're touching on something deep. But I think that probably it's more of a cultural thing that we read into the scriptures than it is actually in the scriptures coming out of that if that makes any sense.

18:08.15
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I agree I think that's like I said I I think it's a biblical principle that that god can judge entire nations. Um, at least at times that's the way it's written the way I see it. Um and that that could be more of a critique of. Kind of the evangelical christian culture I was brought into then then a critique of the bible itself. Okay, so what? so 1 more question about progressive revelation as you see it. Do you think that our our morality um is progressing.

18:26.35
Jeremy
Sure.

18:38.65
forestandtrees
Farther now than it was in new testament times. Um and is that does that line up with your idea of progressive revelation like I think of um, ah, homosexuality right? used to be completely forbidden in. In any church setting. Um not not too long ago and churches are more and more adopting this and you don't need to speak to that issue specifically if you don't want to but um I don't know just the idea of is it possible that 200 years from now we're going to have ah a gay pope and a. Trans um, president of the Southern Baptist convention are we are we inching our way towards equality.

19:21.98
Jeremy
Oh how many mits are we into this podcast. Wow we yeah we got there. Some people are going. What am I listening to? Well Jeff, you're you're going there I appreciate it I I would say this there have been there have been a few times where i. You know I'll stare at a passage and I'll realize hey if this passage is true I got I gotta go do a deep dive on this and there's two I would say 2 passages in the last five years maybe more that have done this to me. Where I've I've stared at these and went there's something deeper there that I'm have to do a real deep dive and I'll say the first one was John five thirty nine through 40 where Jesus says he's talking to pharisees the religious leaders in judaism and he says you know you search the scriptures old testament to us. Because you think that in them you will find life yet. These are the very scriptures that point to me and you refuse to come to me to have life so a couple points in that one Jesus makes the claim there that all the old testament should be interpreted by him which the jews of the day did not want to do right? That was not a. Was not a well-ceive idea by them and secondly you know he is pointing out. You're going to these texts to find life. You're not going to find life in the text you're going to find life in the person of Jesus I realize like wow if that if that premise that Jesus is making there is true I have to interpret all of scripture this way.

20:56.64
Jeremy
So all of my theology has to and that's where again, this is why the book of hebrews really took on new life for me is I realized this is what the book of hebrews is saying like you've got to interpret all this stuff through the person of Jesus and then second am I getting my life in the text or am I getting my life in the person of Jesus. And 1 of my critiques of the church can can I critique christians as as the christian the pastor here one of my critiques is that I think so many christians try to find life in the bible and this is literally opposite of what Jesus said you said why are you trying to find your life in the text you find your life in me.

21:20.18
forestandtrees
Go ahead.

21:34.25
Jeremy
It's all pointing to me and I think how many christians have a I don't know another word to call it other than idolatry of the the actual text of the bible and and we want to argue you know inerrancy and we want to you know we want to elevate it and it becomes this fourth member of the trinity. And it I mean it is bizarre to me and I I just I look at those people and I go I think I think you missed it I think you missed the point of all this is pointing us to Jesus so that was one real fundamental that took me years to stare at the it is 2 verses to stare at those 2 verses and go if this is true. My latest I referenced it. You know in your earlier question is John 161213 where Jesus says I wanted to say more to you. You couldn't bear it so I'm leaving you the holy spirit who will guide you into all truth if that is true that has humongous implications for us today. First question. What is the truth that Jesus wanted to give us that we couldn't bear like what what was Jesus trying to say to them that their imagination wasn't ready for that progressively. They weren't ready for that's a huge question that I'm I'm staring at going well I don't know what was it and 2 if Jesus is right in the role of the holy spirit. How could we argue that there couldn't be new things or there shouldn't be new things today because if we would say no, we have the exact same faith as the the you know the book of acts that the early church which so many christians say this line and I'm baffled by it.

23:04.29
Jeremy
You mean you want the holy spirit to reveal nothing to you that that hadn't already been revealed two thousand years ago so in 2000 years the holy spirit has done nothing has contributed nothing to this conversation and I think again I'm just staring at that passage going. There's something there. That we've got to wrestle with and so I put lots of these modern day conversations into that lens and I asked the spirit to help me discern it and you know whenever I make that argument the christian response I get back is very quickly. Well, that's a slippery slope. That is a so you know you start doing that and I hear it and I say sure because what we're acknowledging is it's gonna be different than it was. But if what Jesus said in John 161213 is true how can we expect anything else and that's the conundrum I don't know. How to offer resolution for I think that's a tension that anyone who wants to follow Jesus has to live with and I I would think you know to a skeptic that would be a much more appealing way to follow Jesus at least where you go oh you're not just set that you know it's this this this and this. But you're you're making room for god to continually reveal who god is I don't know any other way around it.

24:23.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I mean that that's something I I thought about a lot in in my time in progressive christianity is like how much how much time Jesus spends kind of subverting the old testament law and um, just challenging the religious leaders right? and being like I didn't say that. Didn't say that why you guys why guys have this rule. That's not my rule and it's it's sort of maddening because like if Jesus and god are the same person and if you believe in the authority of scripture and that old testament law is god's law that it's like well what do you mean you didn't say that um co kosher laws right? that you got um, you can't.

24:52.60
Jeremy
Right.

24:57.65
forestandtrees
Can't have pork until the book of acts and now you can have pork and it's like it kind of seems like God had a specific role and he changed his mind like either that or the the fallible humans writing the book wrote it down wrong because they heard it wrong? Um, yeah.

25:12.26
Jeremy
Well, it's got It's got to be something I me to your point. There's there's it changes right? So you have to acknowledge it. Okay.

25:16.71
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, and then of course God Also says he doesn't change his mind which something's got to give here right.

25:27.52
Jeremy
Well I I think God absolutely changes his mind but that's ah, that's probably probably a different episode.

25:29.31
forestandtrees
Oh it's yeah, open theater because there's a verse this is god is the same yesterday today and and forever but people people believe that and.

25:35.74
Jeremy
But I would say that's the nature of god you know and I think god is god to which I would say to that set that verse god has always looked like Jesus we just didn't know it because if god is the same today yesterday and tomorrow and we know that god is you know Jesus is the exact representation of.

25:46.58
forestandtrees
M.

25:54.36
Jeremy
Of who god is as hebrews has already told us then god has always looked like Jesus they just didn't know that so then you have to read backward and go okay god was always jesus they didn't know it. How do we make sense of kosher laws. How do we make sense of this and that and I think that's what a ah.

26:06.49
forestandtrees
Yeah.

26:11.87
Jeremy
An intellectually honest pursuit of christianity should involve today.

26:14.41
forestandtrees
Yeah, or even the animal sacrifice right? like it's it seems like it's it's clearly in imply that God is asking for the sacrifices directly right? and then later in in profits they're saying sacrifices you have not desired. So yeah.

26:28.55
Jeremy
Well, that's an interesting example because God corrects that in the old testament. Not even a new testament so that yeah like gets corrected in the old testament of like I never wanted this. It's like well okay, but you you said that you did so what? Okay I think they have they have a fair argument to be like a little confused.

26:34.30
forestandtrees
Exactly right right.

26:42.84
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah.

26:47.66
Jeremy
Okay, well we we thought we were doing what you said, but then you said something different. So what gives.

26:54.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, all right? Well that we we should probably move on I'm I'm sure we'll continue this topic throughout the show right? Um, so the next question is um, 5 b refers back to second Samuel 177 which has I will be. His father. He will be my son if he sins I will just I will correct and discipline him with the rod like any father would do which of course made me think of the famous proverb ah proverbs 1324 spare the rod spoil the child. Um. Again, this seems like kind of ah, a progressive revelation thing in in culture right? like fifty years ago it was normal to spank your kids. It was normal to to hit your kids with a tree branch or something now it's it's barely acceptable I feel like in our lifetime that's going to become not acceptable at all at least in. In american culture. Um, so you I'm not a father I I can't speak too much to this I was spanked as a child and look how I turned out. But um, what? what what.

28:01.79
Jeremy
Um, there you go listeners. You want your kid to turn into a skeptic just spank him.

28:05.10
forestandtrees
What what are your thoughts on on corporal punishment Jeremy.

28:10.90
Jeremy
Ah, that's great I was also spanked as a kid and look how I turned out so there we go if you spank your kids they'll end up on a podcast together reading the bible I guess things could be worse. Perhaps I would say what's interesting about that question is.

28:20.92
forestandtrees
Yeah.

28:28.22
Jeremy
There's definitely something in the christian subculture about corporal punishment and you know anyone raised in it and again to your point we're talking you know a few decades back now. But if you were raised it that was probably very much a part of how you're raised and you know the proverbs verse quoted. All over the place and so I would say I have 5 kids. Our oldest is 13 now you know we just kind of assumed like that's that's what you do because that's you know as a parent you you tend to defer to how you are raised unless you really give it thought or you know you have some reason not to. Do it the way you were raised and on that one is kind of like yeah I guess I'll I guess I'll fakee my kids too because that's you know's how you do it and I remember my oldest who and who now is 13 I don't know who was little little guy and you know we had had this like little wooden spoon and it was like all right, you're going to get sphinked on your bottom. You know if you do really bad. And remember 1 time he did something really really bad that would he knew would warrant you know the the spoon and I remember as soon as he like realized he was in trouble. He said to me please don't hit me dad and I mean he was probably 3 four I don't even know how how young he was and hearing my little kid. Say to me please don't hit me dad I mean like it rattled me and I remember thinking like I don't want this like I don't want to be this guy I don't want to be this dad. This doesn't feel good to me at all and you know so I look back and it's like I don't.

30:06.70
Jeremy
You know to give my parents a pass here I don't think I was scarred by corporal punishment as a child. Okay I had it I don't think it left any I've not been a counseling over it I think I turned out. Okay so I don't have any grudges tor my parents. But. To your point I think the conversation has changed and I would say for the better where I think we're going hey maybe this has effects that we didn't realize previous generations or maybe we just assumed this was the way you had to do it and maybe there's some things culturally from an ancient near east culture allah the book of proverbs that we shouldn't just copy and paste over today. You know and in our culture and so I think for me I realized yeah I didn't want to I didn't want to be that dad and I don't say that as a judgment on anyone who does just as that was my own discovery based on again, you know I would say a moment of the. Spirit making my heart tender in response to what my little son said to me realizing I'm about to get the spoon and I just went I don't want to do that and so I think for us it was like hey if we can ever avoid this, you know and so I do think we still had to like threaten the spoon like you know more as like this is what's coming, but it was always like we don't ever want to. Have to resort to that I think the challenge is and this is want to be a little bit fair to the other side of the argument I have raised 5 kids or amm you know in the process of raising 5 kids the same things do not work on the same kids and parents of multiple.

31:30.98
Jeremy
Multiple kids realize this like you can do 1 thing with 1 kid and it works and then you assume kid number 2 it's gonna work and then it doesn't work so you figure out something different for kid number 2 and then kid number 3 comes along and you do the thing that you did for kid number 2 and that doesn't work so you go back. You did the thing you did for kid number one that doesn't work and you're like I got something new and then you developed something new for kid number 3 and on and on you get 5 and you have 5 different scenarios I have 5 totally different kids and so I do think there gets to be this challenge of like how else do we do this? Um, and so I would just say hey if if you're wrestling with this as a a Christian parent today I think you are wise to caution. Ah, some slowness here and I would encourage you at a minimum pray about it and just ask like Jesus can I be a good parent and not do this and would it actually make me a better parent if I didn't do this and make room for the holy spirit to lead you into that truth you know if that's what god wants to reveal to you. And also give yourself a little bit of freedom to say just because this is in the christian subculture and in the book of proverbs doesn't mean I have to hit my child. You know to to be a good godly parent and so I I would I would love for that to be more of the conversation where we encourage people to move beyond that. Um. I know it's incredibly touchy. No pun intended when you get into this conversation and when you get into any parenting technique of anything. You know you get a lot of opinions but I would I would love to be a part of the conversation of let's move beyond this and.

33:02.41
Jeremy
Use our imaginations better I think there are better ways to raise kids to discipline kids I'm not 1 of the parents that you know oh we just let our kids do anything our kids wouldn't tell you that but I don't think that physical you know violence against the child is the best way to to solve that problem.

33:19.54
forestandtrees
You know would be an interesting experiment What if the parent prays about it and the kid who's about to get spanked praise about it and then they compare notes and see if God tells both of them the same thing. Yeah.

33:33.21
Jeremy
I Love that I A little challenge to our listeners just ah, just pray with your kids about it and just see see if the spirit lines up on that that that'd be great.

33:44.85
forestandtrees
Yeah, ah, okay, yeah, we we better keep moving here. Um so let's jump to verse 8 it describes the throne of god Jesus being on on the right hand side of the throne. All of that stuff and it reminded me of of a blog post that you did recently about how Jesus is ah a humble deity. He's different than than your stereotypical um monarch who is seated on a throne has um, a golden septer and. Crown and all of the the trappings of glory. So I I agree with that sense of like right? Jesus came as this humble servant he came as a child he he died ah a humiliating death right? But your biblical visions of heaven are still this stereotypical. Throne room streets of gold. Um god is is called the king you know throughout scripture. So what? what are your thoughts on that.

34:49.26
Jeremy
I think this fits right into what we've been talking about god is communicating in language that the people understand so god can't communicate anything that they don't have the framework for I wouldn't make any sense to them and. So god's gotta fit you know within the the parameters of what they understand so with this one I would say you know the the image of the kingdom of god was a really great image for an ancient near east culture that was a great way for them to go oh you're talking about like a different. Lord over everything like if we follow Jesus. We don't follow caesar in the same way that everybody else follows caesar right? So like that was a great way I think to help them understand this is what you know the book of revelation gets into like look if you're gonna follow Jesus like it's it's gonna have a. You know consequences and it's going to cost you but it's worth it. You know and it's this encouragement of you're not going to follow caesar will not be your lord if Jesus is your lord and so I think the kingdom of god imagery fits so well, here's the challenge for us today where you know a few thousand years removed from it I don't think it fits as well anymore and. I don't say that you know some may go well, that's blasphemous to say I just think you have to acknowledge the context you know I've I've studied this I acknowledge the context I go yeah I think that was a great image for that audience that image is increasingly problematic today because our concept of kingdom is very different now.

36:22.32
Jeremy
And so I think in particular the American Church who has you know figured out their faith of christianity in in the context of christendom which is historically throughout America christians dominated. We had you know the power we had the influence. We had the ability to do things the way we wanted to do them. We also have the biggest military in the world by a lot like no one even comes close. So then when you read these kingdom images into that culture I think it's incredibly misleading. And I think it's problematic because it it it essentially hijacks the opposite way it invites people to to latch themselves to the world rather than what it originally did for the the original audience was to to separate them from rome I think this attaches us to more of a ah military like this is. This is our we got to get our nation back. You know and this is where christians get really passionate. We got to. We got to vote the the right people in and vote the wrong people out and return to you know our values and get the 10 commandments back in school and all of this is as I think from that kingdom idea here's my. Possibly controversial hot take on this if Jesus were coming today in this context I do not think he would use the kingdom of god imagery today now I don't say that he got it wrong in using it when he did I'm just saying I think Jesus would use a different image and.

37:54.74
Jeremy
I think Jesus would use different parables right? like Jesus was using the images of the day to to do that I don't think Jesus would talk about a farmer as much as he did for our culture right? That's not sacrilegious other than most of us don't resonate with farmers the way that his original audience did. Is the same thing with the kingdom of god I think this image isn't as applicable for us in our culture today and we just have to acknowledge that and I also think you acknowledge where it can be confusing. You know one of the things I get I get asked a lot because I've had experience leading. You know, worship services and and. Overseeing how the services are designed and I get you know invited to consult different churches from primary time and give you know outside opinion on stuff and one of the things I'm very sensitive to these days is what I call war worship and war worship is when we take these militaristic images. And we bring them right into our relationship with god and then we sing them almost I like this battle cry and it's amazing to me how many of these songs are popular today and you know it's it's all the rage if you will to have this this very battle-driven imagery. And I just think you know we're hijacking people's imaginations around an idea that is is antithetical to the person of Jesus I don't think this is what Jesus is inviting us to be anymore. But when we use these images as such as the kingdom of god and you know we kind of make it nationalistic I think it goes there and so.

39:20.96
Jeremy
I think that's a tension that you and I probably agree with you know far more than we would disagree on this and rather than dismiss it I think the church this is an invitation for christians to allow the spirit to keep inviting us forward to say okay that worked for them. What are the best ways for us to describe it today and it's probably not using military terms. It's probably not using kingdom terms that's not as helpful as it was for them.

39:46.60
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I I agree with all of that of course we've seen all kinds of examples of of christian nationalism in our country. And of course I've also been thinking a lot about just the concept of monarchy Kings and queens with the the queen of england just passed away ah a week or so ago and thinking about how oh aren't we glad to be americans who don't have this silly outdated monarchy system and then remember oh yeah, we're still. Um, a colonizing nation that has territories all over the world and and as you say have we have this enormous conquering military which yeah, which I agree is is the opposite of of Jesus's message um okay cool let's see ah, we've got first nine says you love justice and hate evil which that that's all it says in the book of Hebrews. Ah may maybe again, this is my hangups with like the way I was raised but when I think about like god's justice. It makes me think of um. The you know conquest stories in the old testament and judgment and in our modern day. It makes me think of hell right? like with ah the classic question of how could god possibly allow someone to go to hell that doesn't seem just and and then christians will.

41:14.18
forestandtrees
Say Well if you actually understood Justice it. It makes perfect sense. Um, sorry sorry that's a really big question but do you have any thoughts on this.

41:22.20
Jeremy
I think you've got some baggage Jeff that that you need to work through around the work. So.

41:27.15
forestandtrees
Yeah I was um yeah I was going to go to therapy but I just decided to start a podcast instead.

41:33.28
Jeremy
Um, I'll send you my bill. Ah I think justice can be a problematic word I would invite you and any others to you know reimagine what justice looks like and. Explore does it have to mean you know what? you? what? you think it means or what you were told it means um I think it doesn't I think you know the most succinct way I could think to describe what justice is is when god makes things right? or the process of god making things right? and I think. God can make things right in profound ways that would be hard for us to make sense of and I don't say that with you know god's just going to burn everybody I think that's a very little imagination to understand a concept of justice I think god can god can redeem and make things right in ways that we cannot. And so we often dismiss it as possible of like well there's no way that could happen. You know I can never do that. So then god can never do that and I would say well we'll slow down if god is as good as you know I believe god is and as powerful and you know infinite as I believe god is. Then yeah I need to use my imagination and push my imagination to understand just how deep and profound and wide the justice of god could be and so I think you have to have a justice and we'll take the proverbial example that always gets brought up you know Hitler as one of the most.

43:05.66
Jeremy
Starkest examples of evil you know history has ever seen I think a concept of justice has to be big enough to say how does god make that right for every single person who suffered under. You know the atrocious evil that Hitler brought into the world. How does god make that right? That's part of justice. As well as how does god bring justice and restore a person like Hitler now that's the part that I lose most christians on like well who cares about that? Well no, if justice is is god making things right? something went very wrong with Adolf Hitler Hitler was not created as the embodiment of evil it was a person with free will who chose horrific utterly horrific things on a scale that few in history have ever matched so something very broken happen. There. how does god redeem that how does god restore that that's got to be a part of justice as well as. Making all the irrepararable damage now again to us. We go well how does god bring justice to someone who's died or who has suffered who's been wrong and you know in our limited life and you know means there, there's only so much we can do but that's why I think you gotta use your imagination go what could god do how could god make that up to people and it's gotta be more profound. What we're capable of and so to me I would encourage you don't let your imagination get hijacked by. You know, a very limited Christian tradition of understanding 1 concept of justice I think this conversation can be beautiful and I think there's room for.

44:38.48
Jeremy
For imagining a bigger God than the traditional way of understanding Justice would imply.

44:47.86
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean bringing up hitler is it's I don't know it's so I get so annoyed when people bring up hitler in like um apologetics debates right? like not not the way you brought him up but people almost always. Bring up hitler as an example of god's justice right of like if yeah, they yeah people always say if there's no heaven in hell then that means Hitler got away with it right? or something like that and and then my mind immediately goes to.

45:05.60
Jeremy
Well, every time I broach the subject someone Argues Hitler to me. So that's why I'm like I'm just going to beat you to it and but I'll bring it up. Yep, right.

45:21.55
forestandtrees
Well I mean it's possible that Hitler was a professing Christian or it's possible that Hitler prayed the center's prayer in that bunker immediately before he killed himself and he's enjoying heaven right now and all of his victims because they were jewish and did not believe in Jesus are suffering in hell. That seems like ah you're making your injust world even worse with that model. Yeah.

45:42.91
Jeremy
Sure but that's where I think we have to go beyond the way that you know it's been talked about because it that doesn't It's not good enough. You know or it's not good enough for me to to say oh that makes sense like no, it doesn't make sense What what does a perfect.

45:59.17
forestandtrees
Um.

46:02.90
Jeremy
Good god do to bring justice to make things right in the world and then you know as as a christ follower then my job is to partner with god on that to see okay, what is god doing now how do I join god in that pursuit and what if a whole bunch of people were doing that like that. Is what makes the world a better place like that's what brings heaven to earth. You know as as they prayed like oh this is like this could actually work if we if we did it. What will we join god in god's justice and it's not I hesitate. They even say that because you use the phrase join god in god's justice and christians are like yeah let's bring it and it's like no. No to make things right to you know to repair the wrong to redeem all that has been broken and you know I think so much of what's broken is. It's it's you know it affect 1 thing affects another thing affects another thing. So even you look at Hitler like what happened to him like. I'm sure something happened to him to you know cause him to think the way he did and what's bizarre and you kind of references hitler thought of himself as a christian what should give us pause like how did he have any ability to say that with a straight face. He considered himself Christian and in fact.

47:10.58
forestandtrees
Um.

47:19.86
Jeremy
You know if you study there's this this attempt on Hitler's life that a famous theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a part of and a number of them tried to assassinate Hitler. It didn't work and Hitler concluded that god had saved him from this. And that it was a sign that god was endorsing what he was doing and he sped up the holocaust and I think that's where you know we've got to acknowledge like this can get pretty monstrous if that if hitler can apply the traditional sense of justice in that way, you're going. Okay, this is bizarre. We've got to rethink this and I think it's time for christians to go. Let's let's figure out like how does god actually redeem this how how does god redeem all of it and how do we join god in that and it begins by taking some of the things that Jesus said literally like you literally love your enemies. That's that's a way to create justice in the world.

48:15.22
forestandtrees
Well thinking speaking of heaven and Earth versus um, 10 through 12 talk about heaven and Earth will perish. They will be discarded like old clothing but God will reign Forever. So that this is something that is is repeated multiple times in the bible and I would consider this like true legitimate wisdom right? The sense that nothing lasts things things fade away. Um and and it's an interesting mindset shift for me as someone who. Used to think of myself as someone who who is going to live forever right? like my earthly possessions will go away but I'll be I'll live forever in heaven and something that um, it's something I've kind of had to reckon with I Guess as um, someone who doesn't doesn't have assurance in my salvation anymore. And it's something that it bothers me the way. So many Christians use this passage which I think is a perfectly biblical principle of thinking the Earth is temporary and so things like climate change and using up all of our. Earthly Resources are not something to be concerned about right because because that's just part of the way things go that the Earth will someday dissolve and perish and God's going to restore and make all things new someday.

49:42.43
Jeremy
I Think this is a fair criticism and I think I would agree with your criticism of the church in this Regard. We have done a very poor job of taking care of creation and it's it's from verses like these.. There's also a number of verses talk about you know a new Earth and a new heaven and what does that look like is God does God start over you know is this something completely different I think at ah at a basic level if you want to. Follow God you you should have an an appreciation and a love for all of God's creation because God made it like let's start there right? So That's like I don't know we call that christianity 1 to 1 like basic principles like hey if if God is good and God made things like we should. Honor what God made like we should value. It. So Even if God decides to end the earth as we know it does not give us the right to abuse it or to assume this is you know something for us just to treat poorly at our whim. I would say that's an abuse of God's Creation. We. We're not well and you know and again you might go well that that seems like some hippie dippy like liberal way to well it it it you know leads to well then if I can mistreat the Earth and I can mistreat animals.

51:08.38
Jeremy
Right? Because what's the point they're gonna die too and then I can mistreat and like you start realizing like oh no I don't think you should go around abusing animals just because animals will perish and even if animals aren't made in the image of god they're part of god's good. Creation. We should have like a reverence because of the creator and so again for christians. Have the the willingness to abuse the earth that that I hear often is is very confusing to me I think and I kind of take thematically what cslewis did like in the chronicles of Narnia if you read the whole series they get to the last book. And you know they all die but they they die in a very sweet way where it's not it's not traumatic it's a book for kids and these kids are running around and it's Narnia but it's bigger and it's like better and so they're like this looks familiar, but it's it's bigger and it's better and I'm confused by like where are we you know and I always love that image like. Maybe doesn't need to be more complicated than that. Maybe the new earth is the earth but it's bigger and better and it's fully redeemed and it's restored and all of the damage. We've done to it. God has healed and that would be awesome like what would The Grand Canyon look like in the new creation. What would you know like that would be amazing to see. Oh. It's just bigger and better and fully redeemed and so I think there's room for that I think the the point in you know the verse that you reference in Hebrews. The point is not let's trash the earth the point is hey god's gonna be around forever and god created this like the focus is on god so like let's not take a verse.

52:40.40
Jeremy
And read into it something that it's not that's not what it's saying. So if you draw that conclusion from hebrews one I think you're missing it I would encourage you. That's not the point that the author of hebrews is trying to make of lets us go do whatever we want to the earth I think the point is no god god's above all of this and in particular Jesus jesus you know, breathed it created it sustains it. These are all things you find the new testament writers and that's the view that the author of he was just trying to get us to have and if we have that view I think the most christian thing is that you would absolutely love the earth and take care of it and what if christians were known for. Tackling climate change because we believed that the earth had intrinsic value because god has beauty right? like that would just be a more beautiful christianity in my opinion.

53:25.32
forestandtrees
What if yeah with the de to so simple your.

53:31.43
Jeremy
Well I'm curious you you reference? you know this has obviously changed for you in in your views. So when you get to that idea of heaven and earth and a new heaven or New Earth what how do you make sense of that now where do you kind of land on that.

53:38.14
forestandtrees
Um, yeah.

53:48.56
Jeremy
Given your skepticism.

53:50.60
forestandtrees
Yeah I mean Well what? what? I think now is that like the the planet we have is is the only one we have right like some people are putting hope in terraforming Mars or finding a ah distant planet somewhere else. But ah, you know chant. That's kind of a roll of the dice whether or not that's going to happen. Um, So yeah I think like I was saying there's there's profound wisdom in the sense of things will fade away things won't last forever and yeah I think that if there is no God it's. Up to us to preserve what we have and keep the species alive If if that's something that's important to us. So if if I were ah going to be a a pastor at an atheist church or something that's that's I think they've.

54:40.97
Jeremy
No, do they have this? yeah.

54:46.22
forestandtrees
Tried a bunch of times I've I've heard like lots of studies of people who like try to form atheist church right? where they have like they have the community they have like some kind of Ted talks and inspirational speech. But it seems like then they normally don't last which is an interesting um, argument for for religious belief I think like the sense of you need. Something deeper than just just the human experience and just human solidarity. Um, yeah, that's that anyway, that's that's my answer to that question. Um, how about verse 13 when it says I will humble your enemies making them a footstool under your feet.

55:11.79
Jeremy
Yeah, that is interesting.

55:25.28
forestandtrees
This to me doesn't sound like Jesus is message of loving your enemies and restoring all things.

55:32.26
Jeremy
I agree I don't like this verse I I'll just approach it as as a person first and that I'll work on the theology I I like get to this verse in chapter one I'm like no it was so beautiful. It was so good. Why are you gonna put this enemy thing in all right? What do we do with it? yeah.

55:52.45
forestandtrees
It's like the psalms So many of the psalms are like that too right? where it's It's like beautiful poetry for the first like eighty percent of it and then right at the end. It's like God Why are you waiting so long. Why don't she just destroy my enemies all right.

56:01.85
Jeremy
so yeah so I kind of have I'll just be honest, that's my reaction to it. It's like oh come on like we were going. It was going so well in chapter one. Why do we get to this first I agree with you this first doesn't look like Jesus to me and so again I have to apply my hermeneutic. What's going on here. I have to look deeper and go if it doesn't look like Jesus which I am acknowledging at service level. This doesn't look like a jesus to me what's going on so I did a little a little dive into this first figure out what's going on. He's quoting or she is quoting so 110 verse 1 and what I didn't realize until working on this podcast. So this is a fun fact for people. Want to learn new things. Read the breathe, the bible with a skeptic and do a podcast and you'll find out things you never knew. Did you know Jeff that saw 110 verse one that is being referenced here is the old testament text that is most widely quoted in the new testament is that wild.

56:52.97
forestandtrees
I did not know that.

56:57.10
Jeremy
I didn't know that either that of all the passages that appears the most in the new testament some 110 verse one and as I was reading this There's so many examples of it and I was like oh yeah, I mean now that you say that I've seen it all over the place I just had never connected that thought so. That makes it doubly bad because it's not just like I'd have to look it up I didn't I didn't write them all down but it's in the gospels. It's all over the place right? And so the the point I was like super discouraged by that like okay, not only is this messing up. Heber's one it's all over the place.

57:15.81
forestandtrees
What are what are some other. What are some other examples of plays where it's quoted. Okay, okay.

57:33.75
Jeremy
And so you know I had to like wrestle with that for a moment of oh does this disprove. You know am I just wishful thinking that Jesus is you know some enemy loving person. The new testament doesn't even believe that so okay I keep looking closer so there's got to be something else so at of at a service level I would say what's the point. Of the of the text so I'll always do this. You know, especially like confusing passages you got ask? What's the point is the point the one phrase that is tripping you up or is the point of that passage something different the author saying and he used the phrase right? that that is tripping you up so I would say the point in 13 at a minimum isn't. The nature of enemies. It's the supremacy of Jesus. That's what the point is trying to say that that Jesus Wins god wins god's above right is using. Ah the idea of an enemy to to make that point which again I would prefer the author use a different image but that's the that's the image being used. But the point is not let's define who our enemies are and and you know we walk away and go and now we know how it your enemies I saw the point of verse 13 the point is Jesus is above that Jesus Wins Jesus okay so that's a little bit but then I started going. Okay, what did the other new testament writers do with this image of. You know, battle and enemies and how do we make sense of this and actually I think Paul is helpful in this regard because in a number of examples paul sheds some light into this which I think if you read it, you know as as a chorus together.

59:00.30
Jeremy
Which I think there's times you you let an individual author say what the authors trying to say and other times you you bring you know a choru of voices together and go what are they trying to say so if we if we use some of Paul's writings ephesians 126 says this for. We are not fighting against flesh and blood enemies. But against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world against mighty powers in this dark world and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. Okay, so if we understand enemies from that point of view that Paul clarifies and in the letter to ephesus that hey when we talk about enemies. We're not talking about people. We're not talking about people with bones and flesh. We're talking about spiritual forces that that are opposing the work of god that's what we're talking about that that I go okay that helps that helps me make sense of god is is referencing that that Jesus is absolutely actively battling against the forces of evil. I think that I have no problem as a self you know, described pacifist to say yes like that that is consistent with who Jesus Jesus is going to work against the plans of evil but then I came across what Paul says in first corinthians fifteen that was even better and I went ooh I really like that in verse 24 26 Paul says this after that the end will come when he will turn the kingdom over to the father having destroyed every ruler and authority and power now again read that in context of what Paul has previously written in you know in ephesians 6 not talking about people talking about these evil forces.

01:00:31.14
Jeremy
But then verse 20 vices for Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet again same image right? This is referencing back some hundred and ten verse one and then verse 26 says this and the last enemy to be destroyed is death and I was like yeah. Yeah, that is awesome. So not only imagining Jesus as supreme over the forces of evil which if we're honest, can feel like they're winning at times and I'm sure people at different times in history have felt like evil is definitely winning right now. So the author of heres no no no Jesus Wins over that Jesus will triumph over that. But even this thing that we would say death. Oh this is the worst this is the finality and and you know Paul's going no no no that the last enemy that Jesus Destroys is death and I love that I think it allows us to take verse 13 which. At service level I agree is problematic and okay if we take it in the whole of the new testament. What the other in testament writers. Do we have room to to interpret this not quite so literally as Jesus going to kill someone and step on their neck. But Jesus is actively working against forces such as death. Ah, is is a very beautiful way of seeing that. So. It's obviously I'm doing some work there Jeff does that is that wishful thinking or that makes sense to you.

01:01:55.24
forestandtrees
Checkmate atheists.

01:02:00.94
forestandtrees
Ah I mean you know it's it's a way to do explain it away. You know, like like I said you've got to explain it somehow. Um, and I I can see how that from a biblical perspective you can square that with saying that. Because Jesus I agree with you seems to have a ah message of nonviolence at least Nonviolence against flesh and blood humans. Um, he's okay, with hurting pigs and fig trees. But but don't hurt any people right.

01:02:36.44
Jeremy
Um, ah, that's great.

01:02:36.93
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, spiritual warfare I think that that's a perfect transition for my final question. Um throughout throughout this chapter of hebrews. Um, the author brings up angels over and over again and I haven't asked any questions about angels because I honestly don't care that much about angels like. In all of my spiritual um wanderings I've I've always been like I want to hear from Jesus I want to experience the holy spirit. Um, what what What's the deal with angels why? what. What is their purpose and how how do angels fit into your theology jeremy.

01:03:18.13
Jeremy
Well Hebrews talks. You know, quite a bit about this. Obviously we're seeing chapter one. But then you know there's this verse chapter 13 that will you know, look ahead a bit ah that you know it's such an interesting idea to me hebrews 132 says. Don't forget to show hospitality to strangers. For some who have done this have entertained angels without realizing it. You know a lot of speculation on what what earth does that mean like how often you know are we are we constantly running in Angels and you know we don't realize it and so I think on a personal note I would say have you ever had. You ever had at any point in your life where you needed help something you know was overwhelming and somebody just seemed to be there for you and some random stranger pops up and does something for you helps you out does something and. You don't hear anything else from them. There's there's no follow up. There's no other what was that about and you walk away and you you have this like feeling of that was weird like something happened and I'd be curious Jeff if you would say that you have had that because I would say I could give you numerous examples where you know I've just had something happen where I'm like what. What was that like who was that person and how how do they? you know come out of nowhere seemingly and like and my wife has had that and and I think there's enough anecdotal evidence now certainly I can't you know I can't prove any of that other than just I've had this feeling that I have to acknowledge that like that was weird and I'd be curious before.

01:04:45.41
Jeremy
You know I answered anymore like have you ever can you relate without or and or no.

01:04:49.99
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, definitely I mean I've had just but strangers um help me out. Ah when when I was moving from ah Arizona to South Dakota it I got caught in a blizzard and my you haul went into the ditch and it was stuck in the snow and it. Was a whole thing I was I was stuck at a hotel for a couple days that the tow truck came and said I can't pull you out because it's all I see and I ended up flagging down some stranger who got his pickup truck and he got his friend to get his pickup truck and pull them out and it was just I mean it was talk about an answer to prayer just the most unbelievable like. People just willing to help me when I was in a jam and I could not have done it on my own and ask it can I give you some money. Thank you so much for helping me. They were like no and I'll just go on your way. We're happy to help. Um, yeah, sure maybe maybe they were angels and not just nice people that that's what came to my mind I've got. Ah, much more dramatic um, touched by an angel story from my grandfather who was an assemblies of god pastor he he had the story. He told me a bunch of times when he was when I was a kid that 1 time he was stranded on the side of the road. And he stepped out into traffic and he didn't see a car that was coming that would have hit him and he said he felt physical hands pull him back pull him out of the way just just before the car whizzed by and it would have hit and killed him and he always shared that story of kind of his his encounter with.

01:06:17.76
forestandtrees
What he saw to be an angel. So yeah though, those are my touch by an angel stories.

01:06:22.70
Jeremy
Oh It's great I You know I think most people listening to this I would suspect have their own stories or have heard the stories of others and so I think we have to just acknowledge that this is my love You know there are there are parts of Faith. That are just mysterious and you know any attempt to logically explain it. You go I don't know you know and I think this is is just such a great one I Love that we're kind of ending on this question but like I don't know like I don't know and I think anybody who has that Experience. Can't definitively say that was an angel that wasn't an angel but I think a lot of us relate to that feeling of like that felt supernatural or that felt different and I love that idea now I think there's ah you know a second part of that of like theologically what's the role right? like.

01:07:15.90
forestandtrees
Yeah.

01:07:16.84
Jeremy
Okay, so we can acknowledge kind of like they're there. But then what? Ah, what's the purpose What you know why? not just have someone be that good Samaritan to you? Why does it need to be an angel like ah you know that and you know that your your question kind of got me thinking on that row too of like Well what's.. What's the point of any of this like if God is who I think God is God Needs. Nothing God is is by definition abundance overflowing and so God invites us In. To experience the abundance of God Not because God needs something from us or God is you know made complete through us right? God is is this overflow and and God invites us to experience Overflow. So from that point of view. Why does God do anything with any any of us is really the question right? like if God could do all of this.. What's the point of any of this other than God delights in us like other than there's something beautiful in God extending the overflow into other parts of creation and I think that's what gets to the heart of this is that there is this sense of. Yeah God could do all of this without any of us. But there's some joy that I think God finds in including creation into this and so any role that an angel takes you you would have to make the argument God could do better right? like I don't know how you would not argue that.

01:08:47.18
Jeremy
So why would god ever use an angel for anything if god could do it better and yet I go back to the same reasoning. Maybe it's just like the overflow of god into parts of god's creation that god extends. You know the invitation for angels to participate in the works of god and that's. Maybe that brings god joy too and there's something beautiful in that and there's different parts of creation interacting in different ways and so to me this you know this question is maybe the most nebulous of what we've even talked about today of like this is the hardest to put your hands around and go yeah this I can make sense of this. But it's also kind of the most beautiful of it's mysterious and it's profound and we can have you know these moments where yeah I kind of resonate with that I don't really know why and we can ask questions like god why would you involve any of us in anything. You know why? Why do you expect us to help you. Make the world a more just place when you could just do it like why any of this right? But there's something in that that is fundamental to us experiencing god and I think you find it in the role of Angels and so again I don't think chapter 1 is trying to bash on angels I think the the point is saying this is a part of god's creation. And in case, you're going to get locked in on angels Jesus is even better than angels you know again, kind of making the same point Jesus is is above all of this and the authors just kind of going through different things that maybe we get hung up on but in the midst of that we can still acknowledge the beauty of god extends the works of god to lots of.

01:10:21.85
Jeremy
You know, different parts of creation in ways that defy logic in but yet you know so does poetry at times you know and there's something beautiful that so I don't I Just think there's something this that captures my heart in a way that I think is intriguing to just kind of acknowledge.

01:10:39.80
forestandtrees
Yeah I I like that answer yeah, it's interesting. The the higher hierarchy right? It seems strange to think about, but the author of hebrews is clearly trying to establish this this hierarchy have you got jesus angels humans right? And you you want to know. Who is better than who um, and he's gonna he's going to start playing the comparison game later when saying like Jesus is better than moses and stuff like that in in future chapters.

01:11:06.17
Jeremy
Well in spoiler alert Jesus is better than everything so that's that's what's awesome. It's.

01:11:11.82
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, he's even but even better than than jar Jar banks.

01:11:17.96
Jeremy
Even better. Ah that that one's easy. No one's easy.

01:11:20.30
forestandtrees
Yeah, um, wow we we made it you answered all of my questions Jeremy I I could have answered I could have asked more but I feel satisfied for now. Ah do you have any any thoughts any questions for me. How should we wrap this up.

01:11:34.60
Jeremy
Well I think it's great I I appreciate I think you're I think you have what I say is great about you. Jeff is you have enough of an understanding of this that it's not like you are coming out this you know with with softball questions where someone will go old duh. The answer to that is this you know I mean these are not softball questions. These are really good profound questions that I would argue anyone who is honestly reading the text probably has and I think our listeners who are skeptics are resonating with your questions and our listeners who are Christian are going. Yeah, that's a good question. That's. And so I just appreciate your ability to take all that you've experienced and go yeah well here are the things that are are tricky about this right? and yet you know in this same conversation I look at those and go those are great questions questions I've asked questions I've wrestled with um and and yet again I think we can go back to. If we take the premise of this book and we point everything to Jesus we're running the case study does it hold up does it work does it. You know, can it handle all the questions that we can throw out it and you know we've we've done it with chapter one and you know our next one will be chapter 2 and we'll keep going. We'll just keep seeing and. And you know again, like we said we'll let the listeners decide does does pointing all this to Jesus make sense does it help you you know, come away with a deeper sense of faith or ultimately you go no I I don't think these questions can be answered that way and I think that's super intriguing. So I just want to say? Thank you to everyone who's.

01:13:07.10
Jeremy
Who's joined us for chapter 1 joined us for episode 0 if you were part of that as well. I'm excited to keep diving into this I'm loving. You know, just the fact that I've preached this book before but I'm uncovering things you know because of your questions that I haven't even dove into yet and so I'm excited for what I'm learning. Hopefully. Our listeners are learning things as well and I'm looking forward to where this conversation goes next.

01:13:32.12
forestandtrees
Yeah, I'm excited to ah put the music on that might be too loud. But first time here for doing a live folks. Thank you for listening and I just turned it off. You know what? Okay I'll I'll add the music later.

01:13:38.37
Jeremy
Sounds so good. Ah.

01:13:49.67
forestandtrees
Oh I did ok well let's try it one more time. Ok I'm obviously I'm going to cut this out. Well thank you for answering my questions jeremy to our dear listeners. Thank you for listening and hanging with us. We're going to be in hebrews chapter 2

01:13:50.18
Jeremy
It's not a good of my ears. Yeah.

01:14:08.55
forestandtrees
Next week and in the meantime reach out email us Forest and trees pod at Gmail reach out for some trees pot on social media and have a great week bye.

01:14:18.92
Jeremy
See ya.