Welcome to our first episode ever! Before we jump into the book of Hebrews we do some table setting. We discuss our ever evolving relationship with the Bible and what we each hope to get out of the process.
We’d love to hear from you email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com or reach out on instagram https://www.instagram.com/forestandtreespod/
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
Welcome to our first episode ever! Before we jump into the book of Hebrews we do some table setting. We discuss our ever evolving relationship with the Bible and what we each hope to get out of the process.
We’d love to hear from you email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com or reach out on instagram https://www.instagram.com/forestandtreespod/
We’d love to hear from you.
Email us at forestandtreespod@gmail.com
Instagram
TikTok
YouTube
Facebook
00:00.93
Jeremy
Welcome everybody to episode 0 This is the force in the trees I'm Jeremy I'm here with my co-host Jeff Jeff how you feeling about this.
00:11.83
forestandtrees
Hey Jeremy doing good. Yep I'm I'm excited if you're listening to this? Thank you for listening.
00:18.63
Jeremy
Yeah, we don't know what we're doing really so we're grateful if you're joining us for this. So let's begin just by talking about who to blame for this because this whole thing was Jeff's idea and he approached me with it I have considered doing podcasts for years. And have lots of ideas that I've thought about and never felt like wanted to pull the trigger on it and then Jeff sent me this one day and said hey here's what I'm thinking what if we read the bible together and did a podcast so I'd love for you to share. Ah you you won me over Jeff let's. Let's have you win everyone else over what what was it about this idea that prompted you to want to do this podcast.
01:01.85
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, thanks for saying yes by the way. Um I yeah I like you have had several false starts with with podcasting I've had a lot of ideas about podcasts where like me my friends talk about movies or other things like that.
01:03.15
Jeremy
So well, we'll find out if I regret it later I guess.
01:19.71
forestandtrees
So this is this is kind of a newer idea for me talking about religion christianity in the bible rather than more you know, fun pop culture type stuff. Um, so you know I I've kind of been going through a faith crisis recently used to be a Christian don't consider myself 1 anymore but am. Totally fascinated by the bible and just have so many questions about it I like always want to talk to people about it especially since so many of my friends and family are still christian and they seem to have a ah limited amount of patience for. Talking to me about the bible. So I had this idea of what if I could corner someone and force them to answer all of my questions. Yeah yeah.
02:06.92
Jeremy
And here we are and and I feel I feel cornered in in the most loving way I'm curious you you you use the word skeptic to to define yourself. Um, what other words would you maybe use to describe your journey now. So that maybe if someone is listening to this.
02:18.22
forestandtrees
Um.
02:24.88
Jeremy
Ah, they might go Oh that's that's what I would you know call myself would you call yourself an atheist would you like what other words would you kind of use to describe where you're at and your.
02:33.40
forestandtrees
Yeah I I I feel quite gun shy about the word atheist. Um, definitely identify as Agnostic. Um I use the word skeptic I guess because I was referring to the idea of like asking a lot wanting to ask a lot of questions that kind of thing. Um, yeah, it it did like there's There's so much conversation online about like what's the definition of atheist If if it means I strongly believe there is no God I wouldn't identify as that but kind of the softer version of. I think God doesn't exist or God probably doesn't exist I think that would be kind of where I'm landing currently? um, but but also kind of feel not quite ready to um, decide or or come out that strongly quite yet.
03:27.35
Jeremy
And you know for an a skeptic we use that word to want to read the bible and discuss the bible may be perhaps a little interesting because I guess people might assume you would not want to have anything to do with it. You know, especially after your journey but here you are. You You're interested in reading the bible with someone who does believe it and so I applaud you for that.
03:52.87
forestandtrees
Oh yeah, thank you? Um, that that's something they um yeah is of great interest to me because like I said like basically all of my friends and family are devout Christians um a few of them are like actually pastors in the ministry. Um, you're obviously someone who is ah a pastor has worked in in various Ministries. We We have a history together. We worked at the same church together a few years ago. Um, yeah, and I'm so it's I'm really interested in um, people who take it seriously people who like. Know the bible who know about the problematic stuff that's in there and still choose to call themselves Christian still choose to believe it? Um, and yeah I want to hear from people like that and hear why they believe what they believe.
04:43.16
Jeremy
Yeah, and here we are.
04:48.59
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah here we are um, let's see oh I have a question for you Jeremy what is the bible to you.
04:58.87
Jeremy
That's a good question I I do believe the bible I would say I probably have a less traditional view maybe of the bible than than our listeners might expect as the the pastor on on here you know. I have a master's degree in it I've I've studied it. So it's not like I I just you know? ah I have strong opinions I do have strong opinions. But I've I've tried to to study it I've tried to do my research and and learn from others who have obviously come before me and are smarter than me and. You know can make sense of this and so I've grown up a second generation preacher I mean I literally read the bible from like the youngest age I can remember I've always had I had kid bibles. You know little versions and kept you know, upgrading them as I went and I would say my my view of the bible has changed though dramatically. Um, not that I would say I I once believed it and I don't anymore I would just say I I believe it to be something very different than I once thought it was or or I guess once was told it was I kind of grew up with the the mindset that I think a lot people have of like this is the. Kind of like the ultimate textbook you know this is the the source for all things and you know we'll probably use words like it's an errant you know, which means this idea of like perfection that god handpick the words and there's no flaws. There's no issues and that probably worked for a while you know, socialized.
06:31.60
Jeremy
Was a kid and you kind of have fairly basic questions. You know for for most of us growing up and then as I got older I remember wrestling with some of the stuff and realizing that some of the things in there were a little problematic or didn't really make sense I even remember being ordained. And ah, the church I was ordained in. We had an elder committee that was assigned to you and you had to meet with this group of elders kind of like you know like this this trial of faith like you know they have to vet you and and it's actually a really great interesting process and I remember though.
07:08.30
Jeremy
We got into the bible and they're asking my views on it and at that point I was working through something called open theism which I don't know if we'll get into in in hebrews. But maybe maybe we'll find our way into that and yeah there you go and.
07:18.61
forestandtrees
God willing. Yeah.
07:24.41
Jeremy
I remember talking about the story of Hezekiah and you know god changing his mind and and isaiah's involved in all that and really got into like budding heads with one of the elders who was like no it can't it can't mean what you what you say it means and I remember just thinking well that's what the bible actually says. And I'm trying to make sense of that and realize probably at that point of like okay I believe this but I may not believe it in the way that that the normal Christian believes it and so for me I think the bible is far more profound and beautiful than we often give it credit for and then you know when the. The textbook understanding of like hey it's the just go and you know get the get the inerrant truth out of it I think robs it of what it really is and I would describe it as it is god's way of communicating 2 very broken and flawed people throughout time and. With that I would say there's this idea of progressive revelation which is one of my favorite theological concepts that god didn't come right out of the gate in the book of genesis and like here's everything you know because they they couldn't have handled that they weren't ready for that. So god begins just to reveal more and more of who god is to god's people and you see that theme throughout. You know. Scriptures is you start and so you have this idea and again you you do get to progressive revelation right out of the bat in chapter one. So we'll get there but but this this unfolding of who god is and so I think it's actually way more beautiful in the sense of none of it is the fullness of who god is none of it is you know like this moment in time.
08:57.74
Jeremy
Of like this this moment hold this up for all time now. It's like these glimpses into god's journey with people and we can find ourselves in that story but that story is still going today I think that's what's so beautiful about it is god continues to reveal who god is today. So for me. I make sure that Jesus is always what my faith is in and the bible helps me point to Jesus but I think for many christians the bible has either paralleled Jesus or has superseded Jesus as we have our faith in the bible and I'm not there and so to me the bible is a beautiful way to help me. Better understand who god is and truly how far god's willing to go to meet people where they are and how much to use a phrase from one of my mentors god will stoop down to meet people where we are in our own sin and our own brokenness and so I think a lot of the weirdness we're gonna get into in this podcast. Is god doing that god stooping god assuming their sin or their misunderstanding and I I just find that absolutely beautiful. So that's not your traditional answer. But that's some of the beauty I find in in the bible.
10:06.90
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I love that thank you for sharing that I um I mean it reminds me ah of my journey I feel like I I had a muff face I mean you were actually quite instrumental in that and when when we worked at a church together. You kind of introduced me to this idea of you can filter things through Jesus or reinterpret things like anything in the old testament that seems weird or immoral or like the opposite of what you think the the peace love Jesus stuff is you can filter it through Jesus and. Find ways to reinterpret it and so for me I I lived in that area for quite a while. Sorry if I'm I'm straw manning you or or making a mockery of of your um biblical view by the way. Um, because the way the way I saw it was ah is I always felt like I was a little bit.
10:51.34
Jeremy
No no.
11:01.88
forestandtrees
Doing mental gymnastics a little bit on thin ice or like bending the text to to make it fit what I wanted it to say or something like that. Um, yeah again I'm I'm curious to as we get into like more of the weeds and the.
11:08.93
Jeremy
After.
11:19.42
forestandtrees
The more specific things throughout this podcast I'd love to you know, hear your perspective on all these different issues.
11:24.30
Jeremy
Well and I think anyone who's listening to this you you have some interest in the bible clearly right? like you you are at least somewhat interested in what a couple guys are are going to react to in in the bible and so hopefully you're reading hebrews with us This is this is where we're beginning. You know this podcast. Oh.
11:40.66
forestandtrees
And.
11:43.56
Jeremy
Hopefully there's some base level interest there and I think you hit on something that's that's gonna be huge is no matter where you land on this stuff if you want to read the bible. You have to do some level of of to use your phrase mental gymnastics because you you read things in there and if you study it enough. There are ideas that at a a literal face value seem very contradictory right? Like how do I do this and this and you know you get to some old testament stuff and I would just say if you're intellectually honest, there are things in the old testament you have to acknowledge look contrary to the person of Jesus and so. I do think you have to figure out and you know there's ah, a seminary word for that we call it hermeneutics. How do you make sense of ah you know these these different passages and and come to a theology that makes sense to you and the reality is everybody does this some people are less honest about that. They act like no I just read the bible for what it says and if that's you and you're listening and you're like I just read the bible for what it says you don't but we're glad you're here and hopefully these conversations will illustrate for you that there's a lot of ways to view this stuff and you know Jeff and I are going to show you.
12:49.24
forestandtrees
Me.
12:59.36
Jeremy
A handful of ways right? like I'm going to react. He's gonna react you're gonna go? Oh yeah, it doesn't just mean what it means that you can read the same thing and walk away and and go oh does it mean this or does it mean that and so I think yeah, you know Jeff I don't think you're being unfair I I I do think it takes work and that's honestly why I hope this. This podcast adds value to people because I do think it's it's hard to go. How do I make sense of this and and you know I had ah a college professor who used to always ask, you'd ask him question. He would ask back. You want the biblical answer or the theological answer and what he meant by that is do you want me to quote a verse to you. Answers your question or do you want me to help make sense of it like a theology that puts it all together and so I think we're going to get a little bit of both in this series where we're going to have the the biblical answers right? here's what the verse says but then also like let's make sense of this in in theology or in faith.
13:40.90
forestandtrees
Um.
13:54.63
Jeremy
Or life you know and you know ultimately you get to decide as a skeptic does it does it hold water does it make sense and you know maybe on some things you'll go yeah that that does and maybe others you just got it's too much for me and I think that's that's the beauty in this conversation is just putting it all out there and. Letting our humanity interact with it and trying to make sense of it together and I do want to say though you you picked a theme verse for us that that I thought was so great and we won't get to this this is in chapter 5 So We won't get to it right Away. Um. But I would love for you to share. What's the theme verse and then why did you suggest that this would be a great theme verse for Us. So.
14:34.70
forestandtrees
Ah, yeah, totally so the verse that stood out to me as I was reading through the book of hebrews in preparation for this podcast was hebrews five Eleven it goes like this. There is much more we would like to say about this but it is difficult to explain. Especially since you are spiritually dull and don't seem to listen.
14:57.37
Jeremy
Ah, love ah the mother of ebers has got some snark. It is I Love it.
14:59.34
forestandtrees
So I yeah he's he's bringing some spice. He takes um, which poor she yeah absolutely Um, yeah, so this this verse.
15:05.19
Jeremy
Or she we're gonna get there in a second. But yeah, okay, well hold hold on to your pronouns.
15:16.50
forestandtrees
Just stuck out to me as I was I was actually walking my dog and and listening to it on the bible app on my phone and I kind of did a double take I did the skip backwards 15 seconds to be like did I just hear that because it just the the language stood out to me. It seemed I don't know a little bit. Immature a little bit modern for for biblical. What I was listening to the Nlt version. Um, but yeah I just thought I thought it was pretty hilarious the way the author of hebrews was just willing to kind of insult their audience this way by saying that.
15:51.11
Jeremy
Um, let's be honest and I know many a pastor that wants to to preach sermons with that same exact tone like look I keep telling you and you're not listening and you find that in scripture. It's right there.
15:51.39
forestandtrees
You know what? I'm.
16:00.48
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, So I I love that I Just thought it was Hilarious. So I immediately screen captainpped it and and texted it to you and I thought and like this has to be the the life verse the core verse we should wrap up. All of our podcasts because I'm sure we're going to end all podcasts saying like there's so much more We didn't get to talk about, but it's okay because because I'm too dull and and I don't seem to listen anyway.
16:29.25
Jeremy
Ah, that's great I love it. So you you mentioned? Yeah, a little bit about the author here's what's fascinating about hebrews and we're we're doing a book with no author and I don't mean that there is no one that wrote it which we just don't know who the author is and lots of time is spent on this by. Ah, the theology people among us and I remember I was in seminary and and I had to for 1 of my papers I actually had to do a paper on the authorship of hebrews and so I did this deep dive on it and so I was I was looking at my notes on that in in preparation for this and so here's here's way. This is my my college argument this is this is undergrad. Okay, this is what I came up with basically I focus on the fact that the the style of Greek so new testaments written in Greek the style of Greek in the book of hebrews is very elegant. In fact, those? um I've lost all Greek that I learned I took a couple classes in college but those who know Greek really well and biblical Greek would say it's the best greek in the new testament meaning the stylistic nature of this book is different than other books and it's notable of. How it's written a lot of people would say that there's a greek influence of an early jewish philosopher a guy named Philo that you can find throughout the book Philo. So this this guy he was from a city called Alexandria now why am I telling you all this because there's this verse in axe.
17:55.81
Jeremy
Not in Hebrews. There's a verse in acts is about the early church and I remember reading this verse and I was like this puts it all together in acts 18 verse 24 says this meanwhile a jew named Apollos an eloquent speaker who knew the scriptures well had arrived in Ephesus from Alexandria. In Egypt now this this is nlt is what we're gonna be using throughout the podcast other versions point out not that it's that he was coming from Alexandra but that he was from Alexandra so we had a few interesting things here. We know that this is an eloquent speaker. Okay, so Apollos' ' Greek would have been eloquent would have matched what we find in the writing style. Knows the scriptures. Well as we're going to see tons of old testament references in the book of Hebrews. So it's almost like an old testament book got plunged into the new testament There's so much old testament references here and then the connection to philo ah aposis from the same city philos is from. And or yeah follows from and so I remember reading this and I was like this is open and shut. This is Apollos of course Apollos wrote this that that was me in seminary I still think there's a good argument to be made for that. But if you go ah on a couple verses There's another. Ah, great argument in the book of acts and so I read acts. 1824 if you go 2 verses later you find another person and a lot of people today would say it's this person. It's a a woman named Priscilla and so acts 18 26 just 2 verses later says this.
19:28.96
Jeremy
When Priscilla and Aquila her husband heard him preaching her Apollos preaching boldly in the synagogue. They took him aside and explained the way of god even more accurately. So here. You have a woman and her husband who. Hear a paulllos preaching this very eloquent speaker who already knew the scriptures well and they even go further like hey we're gonna help you understand more than you understand and and so I love the theory of the book of hebrews being written by a female because it would make. Absolute scent. How come. We don't know who wrote it well if it was Priscilla. There's no way a female would have in that culture the ability to put her name on this and get any credibility and so it would have to be this anonymous letter and so I think my heart. Wants it to be Priscilla and because in electlek coulds say hey I think Apollos and priscilla both have really compelling arguments my heart is gonna choose Priscilla so I want to hear what's the skeptic take Jeff you've heard my arguments. What who who is it who wrote who wrote.
20:38.50
forestandtrees
Well first off I just want to say the Apostle Paul is rolling in his grave right now at the thought of letting a woman write a book of the new testament.
20:39.44
Jeremy
This book.
20:47.69
Jeremy
I thought you were saying because a lot of people think Paul wrote it and if you study this people who study it don't think Paul wrote it. But yeah, he he might be rolling his grave because he lost credit for a book that he had credit for but for sure.
20:55.80
forestandtrees
Yeah.
21:02.40
Jeremy
If it was Priscilla this would this might be a ah real tough pill for him. So.
21:06.49
forestandtrees
Yeah I I actually um you because you asked me this and I didn't have a a theory I'd I'd always thought traditionally it's it's presumed a unknown author and that's just that's just how it is. We don't know who wrote the book of Hebrews. Let's remember from bible college anyway, um. But so I googled it if you just Google who wrote the book of Hebrews. The first thing that comes up is the Apostle Paul that's according to Wikipedia. Yeah yeah, which I not I was yeah which I was surprised by so I click I had looked in Wikipedia and it said you know, according to tradition. It's it's the Apostle Paul which again I was surprised by I thought tradition was just unknown.
21:27.60
Jeremy
Oh really, oh Wikipedia of course. Yeah.
21:43.14
forestandtrees
Anyway, and then the the next I think the next link. Um, anyway, the one I clicked on was an an article on desiring god um John Piper's ministry and I listen to that article that they came they came away saying the author is unknown but we need to just.
21:50.18
Jeremy
So don't click that link.
22:01.17
forestandtrees
You know delight in the glory of of god and whatever. Um, so yeah, they didn't say that the kind of 1 interesting theory was it could be a luke under the direction of Paul or something like that like Luke writing for Paul and that's why the language is so different. Um.
22:02.73
Jeremy
They are for sure not going to say it's Priscilla for the record.
22:19.19
forestandtrees
I'd not heard of this like it was written in much better greek than other epistles before so that was kind of interesting I guess the Apostle Paul didn't have the the best um literary literary skills or just he was average and this is above average. Um.
22:29.59
Jeremy
So.
22:36.23
Jeremy
Yeah I mean if you compare other books that we know Paul wrote. It's not the same style. Oh even though people kind of want to throw it under Pauline. Ah authorship if you study it people go this is this is this is different.
22:38.99
forestandtrees
Yeah.
22:50.69
forestandtrees
Um, yeah, so yeah, all that say I I guess I guess me and John Piper are lock solid in agreement on this one author unknown.
22:59.15
Jeremy
Wow. Wow episode 0 we already have agreement with John Piper ah you're not gonna get that from from my end yet. So I don't know I don't know how long it'll take me to agree with John Piper fun fact I once quoted John Piper and on a blog post. And if if if if you're listening to this and you know me already. You know I'm John and I are not in the same theological camp if you don't know me now you know, um, but literally I live in Arizona and it started snowing where I lived that day that I quoted jump. Piper on my blog and someone replied to that and said hell has frozen over and I always thought you know what? That's what it would be. It would have to be me quoting John Piper but here we've got our skeptic already agreeing with John Piper so I don't I don't know where we go from here. Jeff.
23:38.40
forestandtrees
So.
23:47.24
forestandtrees
Yeah, this this hits close to home. A little preview for in you know in future episodes. We're undoubtedly going to start talking about blood atonement and I so I have a family member who's who's a big piper head. Um, he actually is currently attending John Piper's seminary in Minneapolis um, and I was asking him about like what's what is the deal with the blood sacrifice like why? Why couldn't god just forgive us. Why does he need a blood sacrifice so in response to my question. He actually lent me his copy of a book by John Piper the book was called 50 reasons Jesus came to die um, explaining the the reason for the blood sacrifice. Of course the book of hebrews has that that line without the shedding of blood. There is no forgiveness of sins which you know we'll talk about that later but ah. Yeah that's so that's that's my John Piper encounter for you.
24:44.40
Jeremy
For 50 reasons there you go what? What more could you need now in this podcast we had you and I had debated. Um, okay, what are we start right? because there's there's quite a bit of material. We can go through and we we didn't really start with a book in mind we started more with the premise in mind of this would be fun. Or at least interesting for us right? to to read the bible together and both of us just react you know react from my point of view as a pastor and your point of view as someone who believed it now doesn't believe it the same way or skeptical of it and just have that conversation. So then we debated where do we begin you had you had your heart set. On genesis. Let's just be honest and I thought that would be so rad. But that's like biting off way way too much right of the gate and genesis is massive and we would have to do 5 episodes for every chapter I mean it would just be this behemoth thing to try to unpack and so. I suggested hebrews because I said hey this is going to be weird enough and the reason's going to be weird enough because is what you wanted you wanted some old testament weirdness because like I said this book carries so much of the old testament into this and you know.
25:48.58
forestandtrees
Um.
25:56.43
Jeremy
To the point where I think people don't read the book of hebrews because they don't understand it. You know there's there's things that they're like what is this a reference to and there's just some weird old testament stuff in there and some have just suggested that the author was a priest at one point because there's so much of the tradition that you find in this book. And ah, and so again, this is going to be I think it's the best of both worlds. It's all the weirdness of the old testament but the the very premise of this is it's going to point us to Jesus and you know so it's gonna take all the weirdness point there and so the theme that I would suggest just kind of like an umbrella theme for this whole thing. Ah, my this is my 1 liner right? This this is this is Jeff can totally disagree with it. My one liner to the book of hebrews is that the past has led to something better. Okay, so it's like my one. My one phrase is you know, succinct little synopsis. The past has led to something better now. The author of hebrews. Whoever she is wink wink is going to lead us through the past. So we're gonna talk through the past the old testament the the old traditions but the point is not to get stuck. There. The point is to land at something better and that's where I would suggest. This is one and probably 1 of my favorite books of the bible and what I would say.
26:56.95
forestandtrees
Um.
27:14.14
Jeremy
And bodiesd what I hope this podcast is all about that. It takes all the old testament and it points it to Jesus. It takes all of the weird stuff and it points it to Jesus and really you know you referenced this early. This is how I make sense of my faith of like I'm going to point it all. Through the lens of Jesus my my hermeneutic is Jesus and if it doesn't look like the person of Jesus I work it out and and I think this book is gonna be perfect for this and so um I don't want to say I got you on this but I think this book is going to do. What I hope it does and so I don't know how you're going to be skeptical when all this weirdness just finds its beautiful resolution in the person of Jesus. Ah, so.
27:58.66
forestandtrees
You're you're a skilled debater Jeremy I can see you've won me over? Yeah so my I I mean my initial idea just but before I approach you for the podcast and and all of that was just like I want to try reading through the bible again. Just. You know, maybe just by myself just read it and from a coming from a different perspective this time first time I was a christian read through the bible was completely disillusioned was like what is this book I'm reading so now I want to try going through it again. So that was my my idea was like let's just go through start at the beginning. Um I actually. Did the math and realized that if we cover 1 chapter a week it would take us over twenty two years to cover the entire bible.
28:38.67
Jeremy
Um, which we're committed to this podcast I Just don't I don't know if we're that committed so.
28:42.40
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, I'm you know I'm in my thirty s I'm healthy. You know I can make it I don't know I don't know how you're doing longevity ones.
28:52.18
Jeremy
Ah, that's good. Ah I feel good I Just so I don't I've never had a project last that long that I was excited about So I don't know let's ah, let's see how hebrews goes.
29:02.73
forestandtrees
Yeah, yeah, so we're going to start with hebrews. Ah I agree with everything you said I love how it's it's a new testament book. It's it's written from a new testament perspective right? like we have this salvation in Jesus you know through through the blood sacrifice for some reason. Um, but we're also. Pointing to and explaining all of the old testament weirdness as you say which yeah, that's that's the stuff that that I'm excited to talk about so great. Great choice. Good job I approve. Um.
29:30.32
Jeremy
Love it all right? We agree.
29:37.14
forestandtrees
Ah, let's see I have another question for you. Do you feel like we've we've gone too long or are you ready for this question. Okay, so my question is are there any passages or concepts that you yourself find indefensible even with your view your hermeneutic of.
29:43.13
Jeremy
I'm ready. Let's do it.
29:54.92
forestandtrees
Pointing to Jesus.
29:58.13
Jeremy
Um, yeah I mean literally I I would say there are so there are things that are just awful I mean you you when you read in the old testament about genocide and God commanding the killing of. Boys and women who have already had sex. But oh you can keep the virgins of spoils of War I I don't want to defend that like I don't want to be the one that says oh but God is good and God is sovereign and so somehow this all you know makes sense I think you have to just take. Stuff like that and where I I would say I think Christians can be disingenuous at times where we can sometimes skip over that and just say yeah I don't know but like God's big and somehow it all makes sense and and the people who don't skip over that are the atheists right? who look at that and go that's garbage god.
30:41.29
forestandtrees
Sometimes to get over that you just say yeah but my guns.
30:47.12
forestandtrees
And the people who don't skip over that are the atheists right? who look at that and go that's garbage God It doesn't God lose life almost what doesn.
30:53.65
Jeremy
If that's what god looks like I want nothing to do with it and your god's a monster you know and I think there's an argument to be made there. There's some horrific stuff in the old testament and truthfully historically if you look at some of the worst stuff that the the church collectively has done. It has done it through some of these old testament. Precedents and said well yeah, if they could do it and god sanctioned it then we can do it today and god sanctions it and so I do think you have to acknowledge. There are some passages that at a face value literal reading I would say are indefensible. No god's not like that. Now again, you might be wondering well then how on earth can you say you believe the bible if you're gonna say that stay tuned more's coming. We're gonna talk about that. We're gonna get into how this plays out in real time. How do I still have a faith in Jesus? What's because I have to make sense of passion like that I would say all the bible is inspired. It is all. Breathe by god it's not all equal and I don't hold it all together and it's not a cookbook you don't just turn to whatever page you want and go I like that recipe. That's that's how my faith is it's it's more like you're watching the sixth cents and you get to the end of the movie and you go. Oh. Well that changes everything now I gotta go re rewatch the movie. That's that's how I live my faith I've seen the ending god looks like Jesus like that's the aha that they didn't know in the old testament and so I go back and I reread it with the ending in mind right? like oh Bruce Willis he's dead you know like sorry just give you a spoiler. But.
32:28.41
forestandtrees
Spoiler alert Jim.
32:28.92
Jeremy
Yeah, right? you know we're a few decades past like but like that's how I read my fate and so I think I can say I still believe it's inspired by god it still reveals who god is because again god stoops down and allows god's people to think that and I think that. That points to who Jesus is on the cross Jesus stoops down and takes the worst of us right? Um, and so I think I can say both of those and if you're listening and you go if you're if you're staunch Christian or maybe just a conservative Christian you're like whoa, you can't say that um, hang with us. Hopefully. You can give a little grace to that perspective I realize that's a less common christian view. But I I think it's intellectually honest and you know Jeff you you still may not agree with it. You might at the end of it go that still sounds like a stretch and I think that's a fair response to that. Um, but at least I'm willing to look at the worst of the worst and try to make sense of it right? rather than let's pretend. It doesn't exist. let's let's you know just skip past it and get to the good stuff.
33:38.48
forestandtrees
yeah yeah I love that answer. Um it it makes me think of like towards the beginning when you ask me do I identify as an atheist or not and I guess that's that's part of my hesitation. There is is because there is just so much. Awful stuff in the bible. The slavery genocide women as property stuff stuff like that that that to me just seems so so clearly indefensible right? like I when I was a christian I used to kind of like find ways to make excuses for that in my head and when. When I decide I'm not a christian anymore. It was kind of a relief of I don't need to defend that stuff anymore. Um that that to say like I don't want this show to be about just me trying to corner you into that stuff like I feel like that's too easy that that's been done a million times by other atheist content creators. I'm I'm hoping to come in and and try to like make sense of this stuff come in from a good faith perspective. Um, and you know we'll we'll see how that goes ah and.
34:39.38
Jeremy
Yeah, love it. Yeah.
34:45.81
forestandtrees
Yeah, my my last question I feel like maybe we've talked about this the entire time was just what are you hoping to get out of this podcast yourself like we started out saying this podcast was my idea this is ah a part of my my spiritual journey or whatever trying to figure out what I believe um, you know you're you're already. Solid is a rock set in Stone. You know what do you believe? So What are you hoping to get out of this.
35:08.00
Jeremy
Um I don't know if that's how would how I would describe my faith. Um I've changed my mind on lots of things over the years and you know even my wife comments and I think she means this as a compliment but you know I'm not the man she married I'm a very different person and I i. Would like to think that's the result of growth and those who disagree with me would probably say that's a sign of me falling off the wagon. Perhaps um so I'll let I'll let our listeners decide. You know what? what they think about that. But I think my hope would be.
35:45.17
Jeremy
Number one I just I love the scriptures I think there's something beautiful in them I think they're weird I think they take some work I think they're written in a very different culture in a very different time and so you know to just proof text it or copy and paste it on a bumper sticker and think that you know this. This just applies at a service level I think is a bit naive and so I think I'm excited for the nuances of this I'm excited to hear your points of view where I think again, you know I do believe it. But I've got lots of questions and I suspect. You and I will probably resonate a lot on the questions on the things that we go. Yeah that's that's tough. You know that's hard and you know for me I have found a way up to this point to keep. Pointing to Jesus and it still makes sense to me and it still is beautiful to me and it still draws me um to god and and I still experience all of that in the midst of that and so I have more of a confidence to dive in and go let's do a podcast where we. Talk about the weird stuff right? I have more of a conflict I'm not afraid of the weird stuff I'm not afraid of any of that and I think in addition to all of that I hope that we have listeners who would identify on all ends of the spectrum. You know I hope we have listeners that would say.
37:10.74
Jeremy
I am an atheist and I cloud you know proudly claim that word, right? all the way to I'm I'm diehard Christian and I absolutely love it and I'm or I'm a pastor I'm working at church and everything in between that you know or beyond that right? Whatever that would be I hope that everybody gets something from it and and what I hope. We can provide is something I think desperately missing in our current culture which is if I disagree with you I don't listen to you I don't talk to you. We don't have relationship. Um and that that has you know that has become the norm right? where we we have these you know, just. Very clear lines and I hope people go oh wow Jeff and Jeremy don't agree on everything but they like each other and they're friends and they have healthy interactions where they learn from one another and you know and there's a vulnerability there and you know I think both of us as we were talking about. How to create this. We both want it to be safe where there is no gotcha moments on either side I'm not trying to convert you to anything. You're not trying to dismantle my faith. We're just having conversations you know and being real people and I think that's the beauty of this and I hope that wherever someone lands who's listening to this they would they would find. Beauty and value in that as well and the nuances of the conversation and so again I don't think it's our desire to change. Anyone's mind. Um, if that happens great. That's a result of your own learning. But I think we're just trying to be honest with with our experiences and what you know what we see and what we find.
38:44.80
Jeremy
And I hope the relational dynamic offers something for both you and I but then also for everyone listening as well.
38:52.70
forestandtrees
Wow beautifully said? Yeah I love all that we want this podcast to be all things to all people in the words of the Apostle Paul um yeah I get to quote it out of context now without.
38:59.82
Jeremy
Are you allowed to quote scripture are you was that is that on brain. Okay, okay I see.
39:07.61
forestandtrees
But not feeling bad. Um, yeah I agree that that was when when I was thinking about sort of like the mission behind this podcast to use like another kind of christiany word. Um the idea was if we could get people who are. On both sides of the spectrum people who are conservative christians hardcore atheists. Um, you know all all the people in the middle who aren't 100 % sure what they believe if we could get a diversity of listeners and they could all like find something enjoyable about listening to us blabber on and on. Ah, that would be excellent in my mind.
39:46.92
Jeremy
Yeah, and so we'll wrap up episode 0 on that note, we're hopeful. We're excited if you've listened to us this long we're we're grateful. We're we're glad that you're part of it. We'd love for you to tell your friends again. We envisioned. This could be something where. You know if you're you're struggling with your own faith. This could be something you kind of navigate on your own if you're in a christian community. This I think would make an interesting life group aid you know to to listen or or watch this with your life group process it together you know in community. Um. We we'd love this to be something that is beneficial again. No matter where you're at just because we're humans and we're people and we can all get something out of this and so we're super excited for what's to come and grateful for you guys to be a part of it and next up will be chapter one where we get to dive in.
40:39.52
forestandtrees
Hebrews chapter one yeah look forward to it and um, yeah Thanks, thanks again for listening um, please reach out if you're interested if you have any feedback for us. We are on Instagram. At Forest Entries Pod we have an email forest entries pod at Gmail.com and yeah, thank you again for listening. We'll see you next week